If someone could fix quake 4 max so that you can download maps from servers and so that the game doesnt crash every time I try to join one that would be 10/10

If Kaffeedoktor or AJ could have tackled that from the game code side back then, I think they would have.
The much stricter filesystem of Q4 is mostly a problem in the engine, and there's only so much that can be hacked around from game code. Q4Max or any other mod, no difference there.

To that effect, we got two amendments to this strictness from id:
* demo_enforcefs, which allows netdemo playback without requiring the exact game code present in the FS, but you might have had oddities in the playback. Obviously that's not acceptable for actual play.

*Addonpaks, which came up with autodownloads in 1.1. *MAPS* packaged with those extra addon definitions are only needed if they are currently played.
However I seem to remember there were limitations, i.e. as the server switched from addon map to addon map, the now unused paks still remained in the server's FS, thus negating the entire purpose of the operation unless you rconned in and did an fs_restart or something. There might have been other workarounds I can't remember.
And I think when this feature appeared, the most played maps had already been pretty much settled, and thus well spread in pk4s NOT enhanced with add-on defs. Re-releasing everything as add-ons would have been a painful solution - we all remember how annoying the downloads thing was already.

If your game crashes when you join a server, this ought to be unrelated to the downloads thing (if it can't serve you a download, you just drop back to console/menu), so assuming you're actually in Q4Max, we're generating a report of the crash that we can debug. Look for that, and hope AJ sees this thread. :)

I'm going to take a guess, and say the crash you're probably seeing is an engine-side bug in the http server which I seem to remember brings down the server. I remember reproducing that crash myself a few times but never getting to a point where it could be fixed before 1.4.2 shipped.

The only workaround to that error is to not configure the server to use the builtin http server for downloading and instead use the external server option, but that is more hassle for the server admin.

Post a crashdump and I may look at it. Very limited on time these days so chances of me being able to fix anything seems pretty slim though!

I mentioned this bug to everyone I know who plays Quake 4 after this thread and someone suggested I run it in XP compat mode and it seemed to fix it.

Not sure if this is permanent but I havent had a crash since. Thanks for the help though, I'll track you down if it comes back

i suppose you joined q4reborn server, i have an external http server, so it should be ok.

If people wanna use it , it's there

yeah but i would still crash when joining them too, until i tried the fix you gave me

k, my guess was wrong then. Glad the "XP compat mode" fix seems to sort it though

fixed in Q43A, you can have custom damage set n shit on your server

No, they won't give out the source because reasons. People could have made great things with it, but seems the devs are seflish enough not to share a thing.

Fucking closed source mod for an open source game

I mean to remember reading somewhere (don't ask me where) that the issue is that some of the developers for some reason cannot be reached anymore, and since you need their consent to publish the sources, they can't. These portions of the code could just be rewritten or stripped out with a huge <STUFF MISSING HERE> sign, but oh well.

Could also be that it is because arQon is just a prick. IMO you don't get to complain about people demanding you do things (like he does in that thread) when you're actively denying them the possibility of doing the things themselves (like he does with the mod).

These portions of the code could just be rewritten or stripped out with a huge <STUFF MISSING HERE> sign, but oh well.

They might not even know who wrote what.

How can anyone lay claims on anything if its not apparent who wrote what. Debating this is pointless, that's not even the proper reason. Its just a bullshit excuse. Its a "good bye and fuck you" by a guy who thinks everyone should suck his dick for developing cpma

You're not making a claim to something when you're keeping it closed, you're making a claim to something when you're open sourcing it.

I talking about those "developers that can't be reached" potentially making claims to part of code when its already open.

Well, this whole thread is about the code not being open. I have read on multiple occasions from persons involved that they don't have copyright on all the code. The parts that haven't been given over can not be opened without violating the original copyrights. It seems pretty simple, and the responsibility to get this agreed to was on the original project manager. If the original authors were not asked, it's just a 'good bye', no 'fuck you' there.

What's with the code they have copyright on?

What 'with'? You have copyright on all code you write and contribute to anyone, by default, unless you have agreed otherwise. No one can 'open source' or give away your copyright, at least in USA, against your will.

So you're saying the guy who wrote the menu has the same rights to netcode as the guy who wrote it?

Not saying that in this specific case the same guy didn't do both, just hypothetically

No, you have rights to what you write, but to separate the netcode from the menu, codewise, is pretty time consuming. Realistic choices are:
1) find all contributors and get their permissions
2) Nothing else you can realistically do.

Freedom of idea is a natural state, you can only make claim by keeping it closed.

There is no property with no scarcity, and there is no scarcity with internet writings.

Freedom of idea is a made up abstract state. Property and freedom is defined by rules people agree on. Just because you think you should be able to have access to some information, doesn't mean anyone else does. Not to mention, properties are inherited from many layers of indirect rules, implications.

Idea is anyone can think anything, you can not stop someone from having this thought, you can not own a thought because it is not scarce

Ideas are obviously not just thoughts, since the entire thread is about code, not thoughts.

Anyone can have his idea, anyone can think the idea, code is just the words, anyone can write those words, there is nothing about those lines that have anything to do with the author. You can only remove this from coercion, which is why ideas are naturally free, if nobody does anything anyone can use it.

Mind you, I'm not arguing that they should release it, just that the "they can't do it without permission!" is stupid, you don't need permission to release writings, like you don't need permission to talk about someone's speech. Even if a government makes some laws to coerce people away from expressing ideas (because interests are to get rid of competition that freedom brings), property rights are natural since you can defend your scarce property, the people who wrote it already have that property and it takes nothing to share.

It's kind of just your opinion that it is stupid. I disagree. You can come up with same thoughts and spend TIME and ENERGY writing them down in operational code, I'm not stopping you. But when I do that, I don't want you to access my code, product of my thoughts and LABOR, unless I specifically do, and I do not want someone else to decide to give you access to it, without my permission. Do you not understand what I'm saying?

I can understand, I just don't think it's by default to that restriction, like these guys have not expressed that they don't want other people to have it, because you cannot even contact them. If they want their work to be kept secret they probably would still be in contact with it, I think.

I can see that too, they also weren't paid for it and did agree to integrating with overall larger project, but they also did not insist on an OSS license, which I probably would have. It is annoying, but we can't wish away the societies current defaults.

We used SVN in Q4Max and I'm quite sure CPMA had version control as well, what with there being a number of core people in common (and their methods). With this in mind, someone with access to the source repository COULD actually attribute individual changes to people.

Also,you could find short comments bearing someone's trigram in the source, but I think that was mostly Raven's bulky comments in there ; we might have done a handful ourselves, but would get told off for doing so as in the end, version control would be the reference for all things, and we were a much smaller team that could actually refer to that and not step over each other's lawns.

After a while you do write over other people's commits, sometimes multiple times, so it becomes a nightmare trying to trace everything change by change.

tl;dr: you could with version control, but in the moment - after the fact it's a major pain.

If people could have made great things with it, they could have made good things without it. Where are these people and those things?

Noone is gonna reverse engineer such a complicated mod for a dead game. However we could have had cpma with options for vql physics, adjustable weapon damage, different game modes etc. if they released the code. We could have had an alternative to ql which could have been maintained by capable community members unlike ql and cpma which are both closed sourced and not developed. I see no reason for em to not give the source except to spite the community that "wasnt grateful enough"

Who are the people who would have given you all these 'ql alternative' features? Have you asked those people, if they exist, if cpma was actually too complicated to reengineer? Why haven't those people just joined the CPMA project and continued development?

I am a bit familiar with the guy succeeding arQon, qrealka, the awesome bot author, and he has a very busy professional life, and as far as I know, haven't seen anyone remotely competent and interested in continuing such work.

Who could make this is not the point of arguement. There are many open source projects that would benefit from cpma code

It's not the point of an argument, but it's a point against the existence of the argument.

>options for vql physics, adjustable weapon damage, different game modes etc.
You already have it in different mod

Yes bit with inferior netcode

>netcode
Can you explain what this word means?

They have made Warsow. And ioquake3, and quake3e (both are clients, but I don't see why this would make a difference). And added a Quake Live ruleset to edawn, so you can play QL in a q3 client. Oh, and edawn*. You know, that Q3 mod that received its latest update in 2015.

* stupidly enough, this one is proprietary software as well. Game devs are really shit at this whole licensing thing.

And that's awesome, they clearly don't really need CPMA :)

Licensing and agreements, which arQon for instance was rather thorough with - it's not all just dickery.

I'm having trouble locating the license agreements for Quake SDKs so I can't confirm, we all know how we EULA's aren't that really legally binding anyway, and I Am Not A Lawyer, but :

The game engine for Quake, Quake2, Quake 3, ET, Doom 3, Doom 3 BFG (not Quake 4) have been open sourced under the GPLv2 license.
Under these licenses, derivative products of those source releases may make their source available as well - at their own discretion.

However, I'm quite sure the SDK for Quake 3 has NOT received this treatment (can't find it), and AFAICT, neither has Q4's.

So even before the games themselves were open sourced and as far as I can remember hearing back then, the gist of what applies to the SDK was "you can take the SDK, make derivative products and distribute the end result, but you shouldn't redistribute the modified SDK" (essentially, the modified source files).
Also, for the assets that aren't source it's pretty clearly worded that distribution has very limited scope and must be as non-infringing as possible (ie it's okay to have a cropped version of a stock texture packaged in your mod, but nothing attributed to other sources, game or what have you).

If we disregard that, you'd want to get prior author's blessing before putting it out, and failing that there's attribution of various portions of the code which is potentially nigh-on impossible to figure out, should you want to strip out someone's contributions in particular because they either declined or failed to respond.

Now, there's sort of a precedent for this :

It seems the competitive mods for QW and Q2 (KTX and opentdm off the top of my head) are up on github, so either :
*the licenses for those game's respective SDKs was much more permissive
*the current project managers got id's (and, eventually, prior mod authors') blessing to release the modified source
*those older SDKs have similar licensing requirements, but the modders just decided to go for it anyway, because it's unlikely they'd get a cease & desist from id's lawyers (although maybe zenimax's are total douches now, I dunno).

You'll also notice the GPL releases include the full "game" code, which is what the game SDK let you modify. In that light, one could say "well, the game code for the game you made a game mod for is under the GPL, so following the license, we could ask you for the source".
Except you can't, because the mods were built on a different release, which was the SDK release, under a different license.

If you want to have an open source release of $modXYZ, you'd want to have the maintainer backport their changes to the GPL version of the game code and release that, at the very least (it's a release of part of the whole thing, so there are caveats).

We had the same issue with GTV back then. GTV was originally a hack . Eventually the developers got access to the Q3 source under NDA to keep GTV compatible and functional through Q3's various point releases.
When Q3 went open source, a number of people asked for GTV source so the community would have the option of improving it.
Because GTV source was partially based on a privately licensed source drop of Q3, they could not legally comply, and would have had to rebuild GTV based on the Q3 GPL releease. That's no easy feat and it obviously never happened.

edit : many edits for additions/corrections/phrasing as I go through id's github and read portions of the GPL.

Can you or anybody who knows this quickly explain what the SDK actually is and/or what its relationship is to the code and mod developing/licensing? Or how this whole project actually works?

Like, we have https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena
According to the README.txt, this has, besides other things, the "Quake III Arena source code ( renderer, game code, OS layer etc. )" in the folder code/. Okay, that's the engine (makes the game understand perspective and shit, probably also the thing that has to read the binary map files or a thing that knows how to read a jpg and display it relative to a viewpoint), the game code (I suppose, if you wanted to know how e.g. vq3 strafejumping, rocket splash, rail damage, the main menu or the netcode works you'd have to look in there), and the stuff that interracts with your Operating system (communicates with the GPU and so on). The vast majority of this has been GPL'ed (or not?).

There's also the pak0.pk3 you need to organise when wanting to play a Q3 mod. That's all the textures, the files for vanilla Quake 3 maps, the sounds, the player/item/anything model file etc. This stuff is already neither GPL'ed or CC'ed (=proprietary), and if you want it, you need to buy Q3 or torrent it (shady). Probably what you call "assets that aren't source". The game loads these at launch/run-time and maybe vid_restart, cause they aren't part of compiled binaries. The engine code probably determines what is loaded, and how.

Then there's the SDK thing. According to Wikipedia, that's a Software Development Kit. That's apparently not the source files, that's not the assets, that's not the compiled binaries and that's not the thing that compiles stuff (because that would be a compiler). Then what is it? Is this a graphical tool? Is it required to produce a modified version of Q3 like CPMA? Like, there's the engine, the game code (those two are probably tightly interwoven) and the assets the game loads at launch. If you want to edit the game code, which are plain text files, you get a text editor or IDE, if you want to edit the assets you get whatever software is required (images with GIMP/Photoshop, sounds with whatever, configs with text editor, maps with NetRadiant and so on). How does the SDK factor into this? How is it licensed? Does it modify binaries, does it have its own source files that are not GPL and that end up in a modified distribution of the game?

apparently, mods do also not actually modify the client binary, they ship with some other kind of thing that contains the information how they run. Is this where the QVM comes in? Does this have anything to do with a Virtual Machine?

Can you or anybody who knows this quickly explain what the SDK actually is and/or what its relationship is to the code and mod developing/licensing? Or how this whole project actually works?

You have to remember that the mods were created prior to there being a GPL'd version of the code. Before the whole lot was GPL'd, the SDK was released as a cut down version of the code to allow mods to be created.

The Q3 SDK contains:
- the source code to the game, cgame, and UI modules, but not the engine (quake3.exe)
- tools required to compile the source code
- A licence that grants you some limited rights to use that source code

How does the SDK factor into this? How is it licensed?

Tightly, and this is part of the problem. The SDK licence is deliberately tight, so that the source-code release along with Q3 cannot be used for example, to help someone write a Q3-clone, or to make mods for the Q3 demo, etc. The licence terms of the SDK licence are such that they're not compatible with the GPL, so you cannot just mix Q3 SDK source code with Q3 GPL source code.

Now you might think that you can than simply copy+paste the mod source-files over the top of the GPL ones, change the copyright statements at the top to the GPL version, and that's it re-licenced. However most mods started on earlier versions of the SDK, and may/may not have updated to include all of the changes. Eg, I'm going to bet that CPMA didn't merge in all of the TA-related changes in game that came in between 1.16 and 1.27, meaning some parts are based on the 1.16 version of code which is NOT the same as the GPL code.

So, as Hemo said, the right answer is to start with a fresh GPL codebase, and then merge in changes, knowing who wrote the code and that they are happy to re-licence that change to GPL.

apparently, mods do also not actually modify the client binary, they ship with some other kind of thing that contains the information how they run. Is this where the QVM comes in? Does this have anything to do with a Virtual Machine?

This detail isn't actually important to the topic, but yes, Q3 runs the game, cgame ("client game") and UI modules all in a "virtual machine". The compiler tools for Q3 generate byte-code for a JC created "virtual cpu" which the engine knows how to execute. This allows a mod to work across linux/mac/windows, and resolves potential security issues around downloading mods. Logcally QVM's are really just dynamically loaded libraries (DLLs) though, and both Q2 and Q4 use normal DLLs instead of a QVM concept.

SDK code is probably 100% the same as game/ cgame/ ui/ in GPL-licenced Q3A source code. This makes it double-licensed where you can pick a license you wish to use.

Edit: Or if there are tiny differences you can easily rebase your mod's changes onto GPL code.

Thanks for reminding me of this!

paypal me £200 and i'll upload teh source for q43a and buy me a rx 480

Where is arQon these days? I seem to recall him posting here in 2013 explaining his absence. Something along the lines of being chronically ill and having to get treatment in the states or something?

That seemed to be the last anyone heard from him

: /

Dont remember reading that, could have gave him some nutritional tips which he prolly would have ignored anyway, but...

Isn't he dead?

I think this is connected to popegate!

Just wait for Reflex and Eggbots like everyone else.

was OSP also closed source?

Yes, as pretty much any mod should be, depending on the SDK licensing terms.

There is no point bothering with Q4MAX. Nothing will be able to surpass militia in that game

reflex devs have cpma source these days afaik, newborn was part of cpma team and he asked them whether he could use it for a stand alone game... now newborn left reflex so i guess the current reflex devs have it.

Newborn left reflex? When did this happen and why?

it happened in one of the last patches no more than a month ago, I have no idea why, maybe he wasn't doing too good financially or something

if head dev leaves his project its giving some thoughts. Personally i think devs broke that game on their own since patch 0.37 IT FEELS like less and less players are playing game over since timers and altered movment

Actually active players has been trending upward for past few months and has hit highest avg. players since early access launched.

http://steamcharts.com/app/328070

Not exactly

Actually active players has been trending upward for past few months and has hit highest avg. players since early access launched.

41 (current) is less than 42.9 (last month), and less than 47.8 (avg. players when early access was launched).

Must've just rolled over on new last 30 days. Still, if you did a rolling average, the trend is up.

reading is so fucking hard...i feel you dude

dont think his reason for leaving was the project itself, the game is doing fine considering all the hate there's and it has a solid little playerbase, some games come out, they get played and nobody plays them anymore.

his reasons for leaving was a life decision, indie developing isn't always very profitable

his reasons for leaving was a life decision, indie developing isn't always very profitable

Source? :o

talk to him, i haven' talked to him since he left more or less

Thanks. Where have you been though B"(

Overwatch :D

OMGGGGG =p come play some ntf B) OG Overwatch innit

those times are long gone for me bro

actually I think it was like 2 or 3 months now? sry man i don't follow the scene or i play lately

Shit news either way. You waiting for QC/diabotical?

i guess

There was PMX in between CPMA and Reflex. That was based off CPMA with the idea being that PMX would eventually become standalone.... then Newborn did Reflex. So I don't know how much if any (more likely none) made it's way through to Reflex.

myT will getting the source from qrealka soon afaik =) I highly doubt CPMA source will be made available publicly, and I think that's a good thing.

anything planed already to add to the game?

bug fixes primarily

First priority is bug fixes as dez said but myT also has some ideas of his own ;]

Cow ProMode here we come.

and also famouse myTmode that is widely known in narrow circles

Hi, I'm not arQon or qrealka, but I do have the CPMA source code. Had it for roughly 10 days now since qrealka shared it with me.

could you please open the sources of CPMA to the public

We can't. I do wish this whole license stuff got sorted out, but that's been dead for a long time now.

so that the new generation can continue the monumental work of yours?

Work on CPMA is in progress. The first new release will focus on bug fixes and other quality of life improvements to get things going.
Bigger things will have to be in subsequent builds.

Hope that's enough info for you. :-)

why don't you guys just try your hand at a new arena shooter?

I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.

The times when those two terms were mutually exclusive are long gone by now.

yes, more Reflex clones please :P

Would you consider increasing the fall distance required to trigger the landing impact sound to a distance greater than the standard jump height (like in Quake 2)?

The sound is superfluous and annoying.

Quakeworld bhopping: grunt, grunt, grunt

Quake 2: grunt, grunt, grunt

Quake 3: grunt + landing impact, grunt + landing impact, grunt + landing impact

this please

I dunno if there is many people working with you on CPMA but have you considered forking the project and thus sorting out the licensing issues?
IANAL but I guess it may be a valid workaround.
Anyway, good luck and happy dev ^^

IANAL

The fuck.

I Am Not A Lawyer

means what it says

Sounds like not only does he like anal, he IS anal. iANAL!!!

Wasn't their slogan?

"For the community, by the community?"

myt has source and he was a member of the community for ages. So yeah, it's accurate

1 person does not make up a community, if it did, its most stingy definition of it.

Secondly, promode had quite a few members which would have been part of that community, who had no access.

So its more misleading than true.

im not going to bother, being inside the community you know that the slogan is rather true.

you're just here to bait pluses or simply tilt some promoder, mainly because you couldn't care less about the game itself, you wouldn't even play it if you were given 1m euro.

This slogan hasn't been true since 2004. It's one of the reasons CPMA achieved only limited success.

Secondly, promode had quite a few members which would have been part of that community, who had no access.

This is also 100% true and one of the great failures of the project.

you think a free for all with the source would have helped the project?

for a mod it was pretty popular but I don't think It could get any more popular or successful.

cpm has always been a I want but I can't game.... wonder what kept cpm alive to this day...

limited success lol, open your eyes look at warsow, QL, qw, etc... These games are all fucking obscure and underground it's a fucking success they have players to this day : D

"cpm has always been a I want but I can't game...."

THIS IS WHAT CPMA PLAYERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

it's my personal conclusion after some time playing it, other people will disagree

gameplay wise is best imo

Imo its a step down from vq3 because its mechanics in movement and shooting are too forgiving. To mirror your presumptous style of phrasing it:

VQ3 has always been a "I want but I cant" game for CPMA players...

nah that doesn't work that way, I had cpm games where i did one mistake and it meant 5 spawnfrags... how isn't that unforgiving.. most of the time if you lose the pace you're taken down

cpm deserves its own stand alone game, that's what i was saying, vq3 is something different but plays very similar

del

q3 is outdated, it might look awesome for a 20 year old game but it lacks so many features that are needed for modern online gaming


if it wasn't for discord cpm community would be smaller atm

CPM should have been ported to ql, and ql should have had clan lobies and matchmaking. That ship has sailed sadly. Hopefully QC will have every feature needed to keep the people around

hopefully

del

it isn't like many people inside the community came up with different ideas to make the game better but the truth is the game is beyond deader and there is no reason to put any effort in repairing a boat that sunk years ago. It's better to make a new one with features that will stop it from sinking again.

Most likely Reflex has less players than CPM does. That boat sunk as well.

To be honest, that's not true.

Does CPM have more or less than 26 players average?

(disregarding the 17 players meme)

You missed my point. Yes, spawnfrags arent forgiving, but they are a product of (possibly bad) map design, and not a part of the movement and shooting mechanics.

"cpm deserves its own stand alone game"

... like Reflex? ....

yeah reflex is still under development afaik

I am not missing the point, there's unforgiving shit and there isn't, whereas you want to relate it to map design or actual gameplay features after all both players can take all resources available to win.

but if you want to come down to specific situations during the gameplay there are many situations that are punishing in cpm, I've experienced a load of them and could say a few of them.

spawnfragging is done because of bad luck (same spawn few times), stupidity (u keep rushing when u have nothing naively thinking you'll get a frag) or absolute map control on higher levels, but it doesn't stop being something punishing, i've made comebacks of more than 10 frag difference when the spawnfragging was not on my side so is still avoidable.

the point here is about whining always

No, you didnt get my point, I acknowledge that spawnfragging is an unforgiving part of CPMA and I made that clear to you (apparently not clear enough... )

My point is that the movement (high air-control in particular) and the shooting mechanics (instant weapon switch) make this game very forgiving compared to VQ3.

But apparently CPMA is most hardcore for you because it has spawnfragging...which VQ3 obviously doesnt, right? ;)

it has as much spawnfragging as cpm, just watch uneven matches

4/10, not very believable

When 0 skill player is telling memphis about dueling. Joke josh mate.

When 0 skill player who loses to noobs in Reflex is still mad and tries to chime in with a desperate effort to get back at me

1v1? :)

I beat the guy who beat u convincingly myself with 130 ping, soo... Im kinda laughing about your oldschool noob-ass :D

Put up or shut up.

reflex? ) ql? )

QL roflito

Reflex then

warsow

it might not be the crazy switcherland spawnkilling but there is

increased to 5/10, Im slowly starting to believe you dont understand the concept of sarcasm

very forgiving compared to VQ3

while you can deal more damage at the same time interval ?

Im not gonna pick sides in this debate, i dont feel qualified. But what i believe he meant is that you can change your direction in the air so you can dodge in the air and you dont get as punished as in vq3 if youre caught with a wrong weapon out

Remember the last cup where gaia tilted and just jumped around like silly and still vo0 sometimes needed a relative long time to kill him.
For my taste QW and Q3 got the balance between speed/mobility and damage output right, QL and CPM not but in the end it's more a matter of taste I guess.