ESR - ESReality MouseScore 2007

<< Comment #1 @ 09:02 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

By

Great. Nice work. Now you're finished you mind giving me a hand building one of the world's largest gaming centres? If thats ok. Cheers. :)

Edited by dommulroy at 09:03 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #12 @ 09:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stunt.us - Reply to #1

Amazing work. I should pay you.

<< Comment #17 @ 09:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #1

oh , morning dom.. done my cards yet :P

<< Comment #2 @ 09:04 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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kF

yeaaaaaaaaaaah here we go. now get mousereviews.com or something :P

should "constrols" on page 2 be "controls?" and "MX510" on page 13 "MX500"

i have to say this is quite impressive and i love your testing rig that you made for mouseturbating (HAHAHHAHAH)

Edited by kF at 09:58 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #3 @ 09:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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dommulroy - Reply to #2

Get ready for Mousescore.com !

<< Comment #4 @ 09:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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trinion

great!

<< Comment #5 @ 09:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Arcita

i don't get it

<< Comment #6 @ 09:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xoji

This needs to go on digg! I hope ESR can handle the pounding it'll take if it does.

<< Comment #8 @ 09:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #6

go post then :P and on /. ;)

<< Comment #10 @ 09:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xoji - Reply to #8

I'm gunna read through it first :P

<< Comment #18 @ 09:41 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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trinion - Reply to #8

/. will burn the server down :(

<< Comment #31 @ 10:14 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #18

will give it a good test :)

<< Comment #156 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sephir0th - Reply to #31

it will not be a test, it'll be a slaughter rampage :p

<< Comment #61 @ 10:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #18

Hope the site doesn't die, I've been optimising as much as I can over the last week just in case this article gets good linkage.

4%

<< Comment #354 @ 20:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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trinion - Reply to #61

there's still no link on /. but i'd be very interest in the traffic statistic when it actually happens :)

good workd so far!

<< Comment #357 @ 20:58 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #354

yes there is hardware.slashdot.org (379) <- is the referer details, which are listed -> :P

loads more hits from Digg

Edited by Levi240 at 20:58 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #775 @ 08:48 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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wrl - Reply to #61

do you know if the mx300 and mx310 have the same internals?

<< Comment #776 @ 10:55 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #775

According to this page:
http://www.mstarmetro.net/~rlowens/OpticalMouse/

MX300 uses: Avago/Agilent A2020?
MX310 uses: Avago/Agilent S2020?

<< Comment #777 @ 11:26 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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wrl - Reply to #776

too bad you didn't analyze either of the gaming mice that have that sensor :\ and too bad one of your highest rated mice (the mx300) isn't easily available anywhere except ebay (used)

even though my curiousity has been piqued, looks like i'll be sticking with my mswmo1.1 for another round or two.

<< Comment #778 @ 11:54 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #777

I think realistically very few people hit more than 1.5m/s when they're playing, so a WMO1.1a @ 250Hz is fine assuming 400dpi is enough for you.

<< Comment #34 @ 10:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (port-78.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk) - Reply to #6

Diggage: http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/ESReality_Mou..._benchmark

<< Comment #35 @ 10:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (port-78.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk) - Reply to #6

Diggage!

--Kez

<< Comment #37 @ 10:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #35

ty ... would + you if you had an account :P

<< Comment #120 @ 12:43 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #37

make one :p

<< Comment #128 @ 12:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #120

i got an account ty ;)

<< Comment #334 @ 20:02 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xoji - Reply to #6

Haha, it did make the front page of Digg !

<< Comment #7 @ 09:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Rizzo

finally!

<< Comment #9 @ 09:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky

so Logitech > all

<< Comment #67 @ 11:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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|nFin1teFX| - Reply to #9

yea.. our mouse rocks!! =)

<< Comment #11 @ 09:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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trz

Wow, amazing work. Will make sure to read it all after work and there's some related stuff I've been thinking about lately that I'll ask if it's not included already.

[+]

<< Comment #13 @ 09:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stripy

now spread this around.
the more ppl buy (or dont buy) based on this, the more "1-2%" of ppl will have the say in what should the companys focus on...and we will finaly be geting mouses that acutaly work.

<< Comment #818 @ 23:27 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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luKrek - Reply to #13

"mice" tbh

<< Comment #877 @ 20:14 UTC, 21 January 2007 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #818

Mouses is entirely correct when speaking of the computer variety.

<< Comment #881 @ 12:55 UTC, 22 January 2007 >>

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luKrek - Reply to #877

Errrr.. no?

<< Comment #882 @ 13:12 UTC, 22 January 2007 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #881

I quote:

The fourth (current as of 2006) edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language endorses both computer mice and computer mouses as correct plural forms for computer mouse. The form mice, however, appears most commonly, while some authors of technical documents may prefer the form mouse devices. The plural mouses treats mouse as a "headless noun", as discussed in the English plural article.

Errrr.. yes?

Edited by Ezku at 13:13 UTC, 22 January 2007

<< Comment #883 @ 13:54 UTC, 22 January 2007 >>

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luKrek - Reply to #882

Ah, the magics of language - if everyone says it wrong it becomes right.

<< Comment #966 @ 19:51 UTC, 7 July 2008 >>

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Anonymous (148-125.adsl.lpoy.dnainternet.fi) - Reply to #883

heh you swe gays are just so gay :P

<< Comment #14 @ 09:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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26671

Wow!! If only you released this article before I invested in an IE 3.0 :(

<< Comment #487 @ 13:24 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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GUArd - Reply to #14

dont listen .... if u dont clock ur mouse, so ie3 is perfect one, look at PRO 10/7 uses ie3 10/2 wmo and 1/10 mx518 :)

<< Comment #555 @ 22:25 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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26671 - Reply to #487

Well, I overclocked it to 500Hz, but I would have invested in an MX300 as well if I knew how awesome it is when it's O/C'd. O.o

<< Comment #595 @ 07:18 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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GUArd - Reply to #555

i have mx300 and i can sold for 2-3 $, but i am from lithuania :))

<< Comment #957 @ 18:44 UTC, 22 March 2008 >>

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f0cus ' - Reply to #555

I've used both, still own the IE 3.0. You did NOT waste your money on that investment.

<< Comment #958 @ 11:07 UTC, 23 March 2008 >>

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26671 - Reply to #957

Holy shit, that post is older than the internet man. lol

I still use my 3.0 and would gladly replace it if it were to die out on me without a second thought. Very, very awesome mouse.

<< Comment #959 @ 19:04 UTC, 23 March 2008 >>

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f0cus ' - Reply to #958

I know it's a 2 year old thread, I remember linking to it from many different forums I post at.
Yeah, I'm still on my 3.0 also, have the Death Adder and Logi G5 sitting on the chair next to me collecting dust.

<< Comment #15 @ 09:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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LoCK

Great work Sujoy! When I began reading I was like; "How come I never thought of that?". =D

<< Comment #16 @ 09:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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tzz

Impressive. Good job Sujoy.

<< Comment #19 @ 09:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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svr

Ok, so basically, I want a MS intell optical 1.1 (not wmo) with a mx300 sensor....

Edited by maertz at 09:46 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #20 @ 09:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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dardoz

nice work sujoy

Edited by dardoz at 09:47 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #21 @ 09:54 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stunt.us

beautiful information.

Man I guess I wasted my money on the G5. Like I wasted my 100 bucks on the Razer ball mouse years ago. :)

<< Comment #358 @ 21:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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somebodyshootme ' - Reply to #21

dont hate the boomslang ;)
used mine till this summer the i got my mx518 <3
i still use the pad that came with the razer tho

<< Comment #441 @ 07:48 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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xyGvot - Reply to #358

i still got my boomslang up and running, thing is i don't see myself switching over laser/optical any time soon :<

1%

<< Comment #22 @ 09:55 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Phantomas

I would love to see results for mx310 also, although i expect them to be pretty much the same as mx300.

<< Comment #32 @ 10:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #22

Except that it's utterly horrible to hold and use the side buttons on.

<< Comment #116 @ 12:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Phantomas - Reply to #32

Nah, i like it :-P

<< Comment #215 @ 15:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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DWdanne - Reply to #22

Yeah, I also wanted to see the results for mx310

Edited by DWdanne at 15:16 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #307 @ 18:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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peterg - Reply to #22

Same here since it's what I use... ;)

<< Comment #23 @ 09:56 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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rolf

Not bad

<< Comment #24 @ 09:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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GreenBastard

very impressive

always knew my beloved mx300 was a great mouse, RIP :/

<< Comment #25 @ 10:04 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stripy

did u wrote 510 my mistake on page 13?
edit:
and small font on page 14?

Edited by stripy at 10:07 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #29 @ 10:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #25

thx

<< Comment #39 @ 10:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stripy - Reply to #29

np. gg again m8

<< Comment #26 @ 10:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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LuGia

All these mouse suck badly , someone make mouse that can handle something like 90 deg on 55cm in 0.1sec and im happy.

<< Comment #297 @ 17:55 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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spyteman - Reply to #26

less aim more braen plx

<< Comment #27 @ 10:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Spetz

Amazing work!

I'd be interested to know how the 510 compares with the 500.

Edited by Spetz at 10:10 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #28 @ 10:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #27

Logitech are shipping out all of their mice for testing. Once I receive them I'll add new articles for other mice.

2%

<< Comment #38 @ 10:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xgo - Reply to #28

hope u do it for mx510 to, i think its used more than the mx500 :P

<< Comment #121 @ 12:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Twist` - Reply to #38

2nd that!

<< Comment #366 @ 21:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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donka - Reply to #121

3rd

<< Comment #823 @ 05:28 UTC, 28 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (69.79.94.2) - Reply to #366

4th

<< Comment #210 @ 14:56 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #38

The G1 and 510 are supposed to use the same sensor....

<< Comment #209 @ 14:55 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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hemostick - Reply to #28

re: MX 510 / G1
A good number of people here reported the G1 uses the same sensor as this mouse. They "should" perform the same. But what about increasing the usb rate on these ?

edit : after reading the other pages of comments it seems a few other people are asking this. I think you might want to make it a bit more obvious in the tests that you tried to overclock each mouse, but that some specific ones did not make much difference.

Obviously for mice already running 1khz, no need to mention it.. but for the G3 - while it is already clocked at 500hz, there is no mention of the results obtained with 1khz.

Edited by hemosaek at 15:26 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #225 @ 15:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #209

Yea I didn't mention it and I should have.

But yes I tested all mouse at all settings, being careful with things like firmware and drivers making sure to have everything up to date.

I only included a new graph when the mouse performed differently at a higher refresh rate.

<< Comment #389 @ 00:01 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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acidreign - Reply to #28

"Logitech are shipping out all of their mice for testing."

Not surprising considering they make the majority of the top performers.

Does anyone else think they should re-release the MX series?

MX300 4 Life!

<< Comment #442 @ 08:49 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #389

i do, I DO! :D
re-release mx300 please!

<< Comment #212 @ 15:05 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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wrl - Reply to #27

excellent work!!!!

but honestly, shame @ marking mice down for fewer mouse buttons. take the MS WMO for example....why not test the intellimouse optical instead? it's got the same engine and shape and everything, the only difference being that it has like 4 more buttons.

but honestly, tech should be the focus here, and if you wanna talk buttons, then talk buttons tech - where every logitech mouse should lose massive points for having faulty switches in their buttons that causes many players to complain about having to replace their mice every few months; a problem dating back to the revered Logitech WGM over 7 years ago!!!

but really, your effort and talents in this roundup are highly appreciated. i just personally feel this singular, miniscule point was an oversight.

<< Comment #228 @ 15:28 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #212

I agree with you about marking down for buttons. It was a *very* tough call. Originally I made no conclusions but I was told by everyone who proof read the article that there must be a final score or the results won't be useful. I would prefer people to look at the dpi, the top speed and the number of buttons separately and then decide themselves which is the best mouse for them. It's a personal choice at the end of the day and I am just providing a little bonus information that is not on the box. Some people really need more DPI, and some people need to move the mouse at higher speeds, so they should just look at the graph important for them.

<< Comment #245 @ 16:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #228

Well, usually, for products with various performance attributes, the score is not an exact number but a range of three way "Recommended". For the mice you particularly like , you can say "ESR Highly Recommended" or something.

Edited by Yeltsin at 16:15 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #270 @ 17:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Erk - Reply to #228

Marking down on lack of buttons is not really something that needs to be done as this is a sensor top speed test. It doesn't take into account shape, default USB hz or other personal preferences, so I don't really see how number of buttons is relevant in a sensor value test.

<< Comment #831 @ 16:16 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (0x535dc388.hgnxx4.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) - Reply to #27

I just bought a MX500, cus I wasn't able to clock the MX510 to 1000hz. It worked fine with the MX500 and god how I love this piece of art. It's available at www.boomtown.net by the way.. Hope this was a help.

<< Comment #30 @ 10:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xoji

Great review. I recently upgraded from my MX300 to a G3. Though i'm sure the G3 feels better i'm gunna pull my MX300 out of retirement and give her another run. Maybe the G3 feels better because it's new and has a £30 price tag with it. Or perhaps i just have the right sensitivity with the G3.

<< Comment #33 @ 10:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks

You oughta send your mx300 to mew, his broke not too long ago and he's been struggling with a G3, he can't handle any other shape, and the sensor just doesn't do it for him. Give it to him as a gift for the video :D

Nice work on the article! Very good job, good fairly exact scientific POV on it :D.

Edited by voodoochopstiks at 10:17 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #36 @ 10:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #33

I actually have one spare, and if Logitech can send me a new one then I don't mind sending the old one to him!

5%

<< Comment #140 @ 13:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #36

any way possible, just get me mx300's. i'd be willing to buy them too, i just cant get my hands on any of them here in Finland. :(

i have 2 and they're both broke.

insanely awesome article btw, great job! <3

<< Comment #148 @ 13:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lethe - Reply to #140

dude your low sens actually hurts to watch

<< Comment #154 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #148

my arm training might be of questionable nature, but the result clearly is positive. :P
but tbh, after playing like that for like 2 years, my arm doesnt feel it at all. :)

<< Comment #162 @ 13:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lethe - Reply to #154

which mouse did you use on the movie?

<< Comment #166 @ 13:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #162

mx300, i've used it since 2002. best mouse ever (as clearly seen in the charts xD).
just wish i can get my hands on a new one, since both of mine are busted.

<< Comment #167 @ 13:27 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lethe - Reply to #166

well yeah the results of mx300 are awesome, but due to czm i always thought that small mx300 is better for high sens players...

<< Comment #615 @ 10:41 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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tourist - Reply to #166

just get a g1.

edit: get some cheapo logi mouse and replace the cable. it's dead easy. there's a little cable slot inside just unplug the broken cable and put the new one in.

Edited by turist1 at 10:44 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #616 @ 10:50 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #615

G1 perfect control up to 1.68 m/s :(
im working on the cable thing. :P

<< Comment #202 @ 14:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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hemostick - Reply to #140

In which way(s) did they break ?

<< Comment #207 @ 14:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #202

apparently its the cable. when play it just randomly dies for a second or two and then continues to work again. it is possible to change the cable, but i dont have any lying around.

<< Comment #211 @ 14:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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hemostick - Reply to #207

If you can find some simple usb logitech pilot mice for cheap, go grab one or two and cannibalize some parts. :)

Edited by hemosaek at 15:00 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #273 @ 17:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Erk - Reply to #207

Any mouse cable will do, all you need to do is make sure the same colored wires go in the same place. If the plugs are different then just use a sowing needle to remove wires from one plug and insert them into another. Did that when my DB wire broke.

<< Comment #308 @ 18:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ix - Reply to #207

Yes all mice seem to do this, they're not designed to play as we do. I've taken to blue-tacing the end of the cable to the mouse. I'm sure there are better and more permenant ways.

<< Comment #40 @ 10:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xgo

maybe put a guide how to overclock your usb? how it works ect; i still dont know if it overclockes all of my 8usb ports; didnt put my usb stick into the comp ever since i set 500hz :P
GJ Sujoy on the article

<< Comment #54 @ 10:50 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #40

afaik it doesn't affect the hardware itself, just changes windows polling rate.

<< Comment #41 @ 10:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Xsi

i will never change my mx 500 until it will die :)

<< Comment #42 @ 10:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lunatic

Very nice to see some numbers here :)
Although the shape of the mouse remains the most important aspect. Of all things, this has the most influence on how the movements are translated from your mind/hand to the mouse/computer.

To me, the razer shapes just dont feel right. Tried the boomslang, diamondback and copperhead.
MS IntelliMouse Optical remains king for me (using the sidebuttons).

Sujoy wrote:
[...] was even sponsored by a mouse manufacturer at one point where my photo and endorsement was put on the back of the box

I think I still have that box! =)

Edited by Lunatic at 11:28 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #233 @ 15:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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tzz - Reply to #42

I think I do too. The box and the tin were more valuable than what they called "mouse" though.

<< Comment #43 @ 10:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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retire

I prefer the WMO to MX500 because it's lighter and fits my hand better :s

<< Comment #802 @ 16:18 UTC, 19 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (d54C27EBA.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #43

I took the lead weight out of the mx500 to make it lighter and the difference is extremely noticable. Mine does seem to have a problem on white or red cloth though. When moving it normally and it gets worse if the mouse is placed diagonally on the mat.

<< Comment #805 @ 01:39 UTC, 20 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #802

The mx500 is still really heavy in comparison with/without the weight!

<< Comment #44 @ 10:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xou '

I'd love to see some "ball" mice in this test :)
I've been using a "Logitech First / Pilot Wheel Mouse" (cheap huh) for ages and I still feel confortable with it.

<< Comment #45 @ 10:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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aion

This is an excellent review.

However, depending on how pedantic your approach is, there are a few minor flaws:

The USB port is polled at 125 Hz by Windows XP. [Page 4]

This is not necessarily true, but low-speed USB devices (most mouses) have an enforced bInterval value of 8 (ie. 125 Hz) in Windows XP and above.

If the mouse has an 8 bit buffer, then it will be reporting values from -127 to 127 on each axis each time the PC fetches a result. [Page 4]

This is false. It'd have a range from -128 to 127. The effective difference is negligible, though.

Laser vs Optical [Page 22]

This is an unfortunate phraseology as it might insinuate an essential distinction of light radiation.

Additionally, you'd have to put the acronym "LASER" in capitals for optimal correctitude.

As you can see, these remarks are extraordinarily hair-splitting and do not affect the article's integrity in a mentionable way.

Edited by aion at 10:56 UTC, 11 December 2006

3%

<< Comment #56 @ 10:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #45

such a besserweisser :D

<< Comment #75 @ 11:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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becks - Reply to #56

Besserwisser!!

noob

<< Comment #101 @ 12:03 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #75

You fell into my trap :D

<< Comment #113 @ 12:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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becks - Reply to #101

I went into the trap deliberately .

Self-confessed besserwisser ftw \o/

<< Comment #249 @ 16:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #45

Laser vs Optical [Page 22]

This is an unfortunate phraseology as it might insinuate an essential distinction of light radiation.

Which is for manufacturers to correct. He is simply calling out the marketing names they created, and you can't fix that in any way other than add quotes or something.

<< Comment #46 @ 10:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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joo

great artc
will u get this mouse -> http://www.razerzone.com/Products/Gaming-Mice...ing-Mouse/
and make a review about it ? i dont fell like waste money , and a review like this would help a lot :D

<< Comment #52 @ 10:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #46

Razer are sending me the DeathAdder for review. Hopefully it will arrive very soon.

2%

<< Comment #60 @ 10:58 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #46

i asked sujoy about this one and he said he is waiting for it to be released or sent one

<< Comment #73 @ 11:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #46

Infrared? Awesome. That one might actually be worth the purchase. When is it coming out?

<< Comment #291 @ 17:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lethe - Reply to #46

this looks insane

<< Comment #47 @ 10:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Nzr0

My recommendation is to set the USB rate to 500Hz for these mice, but using a USB tool that only affects the port that has the mouse plugged in.

Can you share a link of some sort with us, please?

<< Comment #48 @ 10:35 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

aion - Reply to #47

Get HIDUSBF.

<< Comment #53 @ 10:48 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #47

I had trouble finding an English page with the port-specific USB rate changer. It's important to only change the mouse port so you don't blow up USB devices on other ports.

<< Comment #180 @ 13:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Vajra - Reply to #53

Hmm, I´ve had my 518 @ 500hz for some time now with "Usb Rate Changer" (by RaZieL) or something to that effect and hadn`t had any problems with any usb peripherials (printer, external hdd, ipod)

<< Comment #196 @ 14:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #180

I didn't have a problem either but I didn't want to suggest using it in case one person blows up their printer and blames me!

<< Comment #206 @ 14:48 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Vajra - Reply to #196

Aye,

Didn´t think that far myself (as usual :D )

<< Comment #274 @ 17:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Erk - Reply to #180

I had problems with joysticks and gamepads when overclocking all my USB ports (apparently they didn't like speeds above 125hz).

<< Comment #283 @ 17:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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tbone ' - Reply to #180

I've had problems with my wacom pad, camera and ipod, so it was only useful on the mouse :( port specific changer would be perfect for me.

<< Comment #275 @ 17:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Erk - Reply to #53

http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/hidusbf.zip is the files you need. All relevant info is in the english readme, including contact info for the maker of the program.

<< Comment #589 @ 04:13 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #53

there was an english readme , though the instructions dont seem all that clearly written, if you actually follow them in the order given it does work.

<< Comment #58 @ 10:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nzr0 - Reply to #47

Well this is the link that aion wanted to give me - hidusbf.zip . Thanks. It has an english readme in it and you definitely need it, because it's not a double-click-this-exe sort of patching.

<< Comment #49 @ 10:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

dml!

You've given a technical insight that has probably never been seen before for most of those mice, with a little bit of extra information. The description on setting up the testing system, and how the calculations work is great. The article is also good for people who don't want to read through absolutely all of it, as they can gather a good amount of information in the first three pages or so, then just browse through the graphs for each mouse quickly. I love the bar charts at the end, giving a comparison of the different attributes you covered for each mouse, and I especially like the points per pound rating.

I can actually say this is the best mouse review I've ever seen, putting so many others to shame. Hard number crunching is really what's been missing from mouse reviews for so long, and will certainly help me at least to make comfortable purchases, without having to arse about trying to find somewhere to test the mice. Make sure you keep this wealth of information up to date as new mice are released, and it would definitely be interesting to see how these values might change if different surfaces are used. I thank you for this superb article.

3%

<< Comment #81 @ 11:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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becks - Reply to #49

100% agree, couldn't have said it any better :)

<< Comment #50 @ 10:39 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

arQon

Fascinating stuff. :)

Now I finally know why I think overclocking the USB is a placebo when so many others swear by it.

<< Comment #51 @ 10:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

hkrep

Very nicely done sujoy. I'm going to 500hz again for my IE3.0

<< Comment #55 @ 10:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

prov119

Crazy stuff!! Good work!!

<< Comment #57 @ 10:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

rzr

very very very nice, you can actually see why you got a cambridge degree :p

<< Comment #59 @ 10:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ReDeYe

Great work, great article Sujoy. Now I know where the hell youve been for 3 months :p

<< Comment #62 @ 11:00 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #59

ye its better than just "busy" :P

<< Comment #70 @ 11:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

dommulroy - Reply to #59

tell me about it - Birmingham Omega Sektor project delayed now til Q1 2007!

<< Comment #76 @ 11:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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rzr - Reply to #70

yea any updates? news?

<< Comment #303 @ 18:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ReDeYe - Reply to #70

God damn Dom, whip him in to shape !

<< Comment #63 @ 11:01 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Jazka

Very good job.

Next please.

<< Comment #64 @ 11:03 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

stier

You forget the DiamondBack siderails after using it for a while. It will 'become' perfectly ergonomical when using it 'fingertip-style'.

<< Comment #65 @ 11:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Shaddap

I dont think you should include 'Number of Buttons' in the score. That is something that differ from person to person.

4%

<< Comment #68 @ 11:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Shaddap - Reply to #65

Else beautiful article..+ for you!

<< Comment #88 @ 11:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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GreenBastard - Reply to #65

agreed

<< Comment #147 @ 13:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nukm - Reply to #65

its not an easy topic imho...
buttons, for sure, are important, but i agree, you shouldnt just rate them (by number)
sure 2 buttons arent realy enough... but is 8 better than 4? not for most ppl i think
and even more important, everyone holds it mouse a lttle bit different so some buttons are kind of useless (for me: right sidebuttons of my diamondback) or just unergonomical.
so my conclusion would be to have everything about the buttons explained in the article but not rating them in the final score like this

<< Comment #66 @ 11:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Khorney

This is the single most impressive and fantastic mouse roundup I have ever seen! THIS is the kind of comparison I've been wanting to see for years.
I understand now why I love my mx500 and the razer diamondback so much. Because they are simply the best :)

<< Comment #69 @ 11:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Vajra

Good read :)

Must have been quite an ordeal.

<< Comment #71 @ 11:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mahmoodsdotjpg

glad to see it done in a scientific manner, finally. i still believe, however, that the most important factor in choosing a mouse is the shape, assuming it works at all (unlike the habu/copperhead/fat1010).

therefore i'll continue to do my subjective and unscientific reviews!

Edited by mahmoodsdotjpg at 11:16 UTC, 11 December 2006

3%

<< Comment #72 @ 11:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

leash

whoa

<< Comment #74 @ 11:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

|nFin1teFX|

congratz on a job well done... very interesting read..this will contribute 2 making the superior mouse...

mx518 is the better mouse straight out the box.. tests also show that some mice and specialy the mice that are treasured by the pro players are out dated not to use the word crappy (if u look at the numbers)

overall this is very interesting...a very good way to test mice

<< Comment #252 @ 16:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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BehindY0u - Reply to #74

It depends on their sensitivity; under 20cm they don't need a big speed :)

<< Comment #80 @ 11:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ouzo

Question concerning Copperhead: which firmware version were you using? Many say that the mouse gets a lot better when used with up-to-date firmware.

I am still to choose between Diamondback and Copperhead. I do not like Diamondback for 2 reasons.
- Copperhead has better side buttons (or maybe not?)
- I have to lift Diamondback way to high above the mat to make it stop tracking while flicking the hand back.

My current sensitivity: about 16cm/360

<< Comment #86 @ 11:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Shaddap - Reply to #80

a note to this, perhaps you should write the what firmware the tested mice used, along with the other data.

And what about logitech setpoint and etc.? Perhaps i missed something, but isnt it possible that some of the software could affect the results?

Edited by Satyr at 11:31 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #92 @ 11:48 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #86

Sorry I should have mentioned this. I downloaded the latest drivers and firmware for all the mice.

3%

<< Comment #77 @ 11:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lucky

This will be a classic :)

<< Comment #78 @ 11:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

kmt

it might be worth mentioning that Q3 has trouble with USB rates higher than 125hz, for many people. it causes button-clicking information to stuff up, i don't know what the failure rate is to button-clicks, but when i had my ports overclocked to 1000hz, my mouse1 button would fail to register as being clicked 2-3 times in a 10 minute match. it also sometimes got stuck on as though i had not released the button even though i had. apart from this my mouse performed flawlessly, and tracked a lot smoother than before of course, but at the cost of misfiring, it wasn't really worth it. de-clocking back to 125hz fixed it insantly.

there was a thread on the promode forums about it, can't find now. it was only a Q3 engine related problem, all other games i played at the time did not have the problem.

so if anyone out there thinks "WOW i can get how much more points if i overclock my USB ports?", and you overclock them and have the above problem in Q3, you now know what causes it. i'd like to hear of anyone not having this problem though, i'm guessing many people live with it and think it's their mouse malfunctioning, and not the game they're playing.

<< Comment #87 @ 11:28 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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GreenBastard - Reply to #78

weird

ive never had any problems at all with an ms wmo @ 500hz in q3

<< Comment #97 @ 11:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

xgo - Reply to #78

mx510 @ 500hz in q3 no problem :)

<< Comment #126 @ 12:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Twist` - Reply to #97

Feel any difference compared to 125hz?

<< Comment #132 @ 12:58 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xgo - Reply to #126

yes, its like when i went from 85hz to 120hz on my monitor; just feels smother, better

1%

<< Comment #243 @ 16:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Twist` - Reply to #132

Thx, will give it a try.

<< Comment #568 @ 23:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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dadS - Reply to #97

nice setup just like mine =]

<< Comment #134 @ 13:05 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #78

518 @ 500hz no problem :D

<< Comment #161 @ 13:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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kmt - Reply to #134

hmm ok, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, i have a wmo 1.1a, can't remember what mice the other people having problems had

<< Comment #169 @ 13:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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voodoochopstiks - Reply to #161

I remember having it once, think it was with my mx510, but after my C drive broke down and I had to reinstlal windows on a new drive, it solved itself, no idea if that was because of 500hz though.

<< Comment #221 @ 15:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #78

I only had this problem with copperhead running @1000hz. No other mice had the same problem.

<< Comment #309 @ 18:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ix - Reply to #78

Yep had the exact same thing, it's annoying as hell that such a simple device as a mose has all these limits to effectively functioning.

<< Comment #79 @ 11:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

rzr

btw this logitech guy should read this :)

<< Comment #82 @ 11:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Tron

Great stuff indeed. :)

I have a question about the MX518:

In the review of the MS Habu, you write "The resolution measured from the response graph works out as 2000 DPI, as expected. I tried repeating the benchmark at a lower sensitivity setting on the mouse. I found out pretty quickly that there was absolutely no difference in the response graph except for the scaling. Reducing the DPI simply scales down the response but doesn't affect the performance at all. Therefore I am not including graphs for different DPI values, as they are identical except for multiplying the response amount."

Now, I'm running a MX518 without drivers installed, and I change "DPI" (that's what they say it does, but according to your findings it might just be a scaling factor as well...?) with the little button below the mouse wheel to be 400 after Windows booted, beeing a low sens player. Unlike for the Habu, you haven't mentioned the performance of the MX518 at 800/400 "DPI", so I guess the same is true? I.e. only the scaling changes (you mean only the vertical axis scaling, right?), but you don't push the perfect control speed any further up?

<< Comment #83 @ 11:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

becks

Perfect review.

Someone move it to hall of fame already!

<< Comment #84 @ 11:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

malum

A-W-E-S-O-M-E

<< Comment #85 @ 11:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #84

but the final score sux. Habu is placed better than the IE 3.0. While the Habu is totally useless for low-sens-players, the IE 3.0 at least is still tracking at higher speeds.

<< Comment #93 @ 11:49 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #85

It was a tough trade off, but the score is really affected by your game sensitivity. If 400 dpi is enough for you then the 3.0 is better than the Habu.

<< Comment #89 @ 11:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

sansai

great job Sujoy as always, definitely a much-needed article on that topic. :)

<< Comment #90 @ 11:37 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Adelbert

Awesome job Sujoy, really impressive :)

However, I still have a question: did you noticed any clicking problems with the Fatal1ty 2020?

I bought a Fatal1ty 1010 a few months ago, and after some weeks of use, I had the known clicking problem: even when I only clicked once, the mouse clicked multiple times (really painful when using internet browsers like Avant Browser, or any game with a lot of menus like an mmorpg). And this could also lead to the button unclicking itself as I held the mouse button down.

Has this issue been fixed with the 2020?

Good job again, grats!

<< Comment #94 @ 11:50 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #90

I didn't have a clicking problem with either the 1010 or 2020.

<< Comment #103 @ 12:06 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

fur*q - Reply to #94

Your not using it right then.

1%

<< Comment #114 @ 12:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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becks - Reply to #103

makes sense...

... not

<< Comment #125 @ 12:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #103

maybe sujoy is the one using it right

<< Comment #141 @ 13:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #103

I'll test again when I get home.

<< Comment #91 @ 11:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

murph

finally i know where my mouse stands. good work man. =)

<< Comment #96 @ 11:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (arcl11.cc.bbsrc.ac.uk)

Very interesting article, but could you modify the test for future runs to include responsiveness of the mouse? It's all well and good having a mouse that can track movement at 3m/s, but if it lags 500ms behind a users movement it's not very useful!

1%

<< Comment #142 @ 13:14 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #96

Yea that's an important thing to measure. It's also a lot harder to measure!

I'm designing a new test bench that will create a standard movement that is not just in one direction. I should be able to work out the synchronisation between mouse and machine to calculate lag (if any).

<< Comment #373 @ 22:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #142

If I'm correct to assume this will be applied to wireless mice to find out whether there's a measurable delay from the RF-technology, it'll be most interesting to see your findings.

<< Comment #95 @ 11:52 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mAx`

Anyone saw some Mx500 in some real shops recently? Time to sell them for 100+ € on ebay >8D

<< Comment #118 @ 12:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

GUMBAL - Reply to #95

greatz test

#mAx, I have two dead mouses mx500 logitech : <<, fuckin' usb cable.

<< Comment #284 @ 17:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (84-12-27-74.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) - Reply to #118

Haha so true i've cut and repaired mine 3 times now lol.
It's in a draw upstairs but i'll rake it out now my 510's cable has gone the same way.

<< Comment #295 @ 17:55 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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GUMBAL - Reply to #284

yes, same for me =)
Now I have un razer prov v1.6, usb cable is ok atm \o

<< Comment #99 @ 11:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Seamstander

Nicely done Sujoy.

Seam's Business Plan:

1) Sujoy writes glowing review of Logitech mice.
2) Buy Logitech stock
3) Profit

xD

2%

<< Comment #361 @ 21:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

somebodyshootme ' - Reply to #99

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umWDr_wj9yc

<< Comment #98 @ 11:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Xeon

Very nice Sujoy, thx. Although I would like to see your own thoughts about the mice besides the technical data. :P

<< Comment #100 @ 11:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Shaddap

would also like to see how they compare on different surfaces. Which doesnt work with eg. icemat, steelpad, func and etc.

Edited by Satyr at 11:58 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #143 @ 13:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #100

Next article will have this (although I might have to drill a hole into the icepad!)

<< Comment #287 @ 17:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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fluffyy - Reply to #143

Not necesserarily, I think.
A substruction an top of the turntable (light material which doesn't need to cover all of the surface) with higher thickness than the "needle" in the center should totally do the job.
The additional one-time effort should quickly pay off with the number of mousepads you don't need to drill a hole in ;-)

<< Comment #304 @ 18:28 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #287

Good idea.

<< Comment #374 @ 22:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Ezku - Reply to #100

In the same vein, it would be interesting to see friction and stiction rates for each mouse. That depends on the surface, though - and I doubt testing every mouse with every pad would be worthwhile. It's an idea nevertheless.

<< Comment #105 @ 12:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

pwlj

Great job! Well done!
But i have one question?
Why didn't You overclock a newer mice, like g1, but only old ms, and logi?

<< Comment #144 @ 13:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #105

I tried overclocking all the mice, but only some performed differently. Where I don't talk about overclocking it's because there is no difference in the response.

<< Comment #102 @ 12:05 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ioX

well done! but for me msi3.0 > *

<< Comment #104 @ 12:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

fur*q

I wonder what 'Kung-Fu mouse master Mcfly' has to say about all this?

Edited by fur*q at 12:09 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #106 @ 12:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

toxicvibes

wow nice one...but i seriously doubt the copperhead scores lower than mx300 :)

<< Comment #145 @ 13:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #106

Try it yourself if you don't believe my results. I checked these figured VERY carefully!

<< Comment #398 @ 00:31 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

donka - Reply to #145

not [+]ed post by sujoy. Someone make a screenshot of that.

<< Comment #539 @ 20:41 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

sock - Reply to #106

I don't know, copperhead seems dumb enough to score less than an inanimate object.

<< Comment #107 @ 12:14 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Zanno

i thought this place was about first person stuff

<< Comment #122 @ 12:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Nicky - Reply to #107

dont you use a mouse while playing then? :P

<< Comment #108 @ 12:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Six16

great review! would oc'ing my G1 to 1000hz have any affect like it did with the mx300 and mx500 tho?

<< Comment #146 @ 13:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #108

Nope, the only mice that had a different response was the MS IE3.0, MS WMO, MS Laser 6k, Logitech MX300 and Logitech MX500. The others had no change when overclocking.

Edited by Sujoy at 15:24 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #153 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Six16 - Reply to #146

thanks for that dude!

<< Comment #222 @ 15:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #146

You mean all the older 8 bit datapath mice :P

<< Comment #223 @ 15:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #222

Yea that would be more accurate :)

<< Comment #109 @ 12:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

gk_nz

Sujoy wicked article. Best Mouse Review article ever!

<< Comment #110 @ 12:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

daweed

where is logitech dual optical :/

3%

<< Comment #375 @ 22:54 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Ezku - Reply to #110

That would indeed be interesting to see. Someone send Sujoy one so he can test it. :)

<< Comment #111 @ 12:27 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Bob

.

Edited by Bob at 23:26 UTC, 27 June 2024

<< Comment #136 @ 13:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

therogue - Reply to #111

hci is subjective...

<< Comment #170 @ 13:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Bob - Reply to #136

.

Edited by Bob at 23:26 UTC, 27 June 2024

<< Comment #181 @ 14:02 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

hamst - Reply to #170

the mx500 design is ergonimic, hand fits nicely into a normal "relaxed hand" position. x518 is same shape i think.

<< Comment #183 @ 14:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Bob - Reply to #181

.

Edited by Bob at 23:26 UTC, 27 June 2024

<< Comment #184 @ 14:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

therogue - Reply to #170

how comfortable something is, is for the most part, subjective

personally i despise the shape of the fat (well, who doesn't) and razer mice, but freaky rts koreans seem to like the razer (afaik)

<< Comment #186 @ 14:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Bob - Reply to #184

.

Edited by Bob at 23:26 UTC, 27 June 2024

<< Comment #187 @ 14:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

therogue - Reply to #186

:]

<< Comment #585 @ 03:04 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

MakoSDV - Reply to #111

I've got the same mouse. The button layout on it is perfect for me. The only drawback is that the dual wheels don't work in most software.

I broke the left thumb button on mine though. It still works but not like it should. I've also got a Logitech Mediaplay that sucks as a mouse, but works good as a remote control...

So I've been in the market for a new mouse. Perfect timing for this article.

Thanks Sujoy. I look forward to future reviews.

<< Comment #598 @ 07:43 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

Bob - Reply to #585

.

Edited by Bob at 23:26 UTC, 27 June 2024

<< Comment #112 @ 12:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Spetz

A further, although more complicated, test that you could do is measure the maximum acceleration (m/s^2) that a mouse can handle and still track the movement accurately. This would require a far more elaborate test setup than the one you already have, I think.

Reason why I thought of this is that i remember that when the 510 was released, it was touting an upgraded optical sensor, capable of handling greater acceleration than the 500's sensor. Also, wouldn't acceleration be a better measure of a mouse's quality as most 180 degree turns ingame usually start from the mouse at rest.

Also, posting some sort of guide of how to overclock a single USB port from scratch would help out many, including myself. :)

3%

<< Comment #119 @ 12:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

becks - Reply to #112

I don't think that is really necessary. Because the actual accelation phase is very short to even if it is not very accurate you wouldn't notice much.
But I guess it might be good to test if an fast accelaration has a lasting effect on the measurement (e.g. the sensor doesn't function for 0.2 seconds after the accelaration) So basically, shake the mouse for 2 seconds and do a measure afterwards

<< Comment #150 @ 13:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #112

Yea that's a tough thing to set up, but I have something planned. It's just down to building the right machine.

<< Comment #540 @ 20:46 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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sock - Reply to #150

Attach a pulley to the desk.
Attach cable to the mouse.
Tilt mousepad to counter friction.
Attach cable to weight over the end of the desk.
Drop weight! Observe / record results.

Weigh the mouse before hand so you know the acceleration value.

Seems a bit simple to me, guess you'd have to make sure the mouse doesn't tilt and start rolling, but other than that it appears to be a simple, robust, almost fool proof way of getting an idea of the acceleration the mouse can handle.

<< Comment #576 @ 23:54 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #540

The problem with that is do you really know the speed that the mouse should be reading?

Yes you can work out how fast it should be reading based on a theoretical situation where there is no friction, but it would be impossible to work out air resistance and friction in enough detail for any meaningful results. Unless I'm getting the wrong idea of what you're saying.

<< Comment #647 @ 20:36 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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sock - Reply to #576

Air resistance is really negligible unless you plan on accelerating the mouse to a few hundred metres per second. As for friction, oil up the wood, tilt it until the mouse slides down at a constant speed, and you're all set. Grease proof paper might even do.

I guess it does sound a little basic, but it's what we do in a-level physics, albeit with trolleys, and we're able to get values for g with about +/- 0.05 ms^-2. I'm pretty sure that would be accurate enough for your tests.

If you wanted to be really accurate, you could measure the instantaneous acceleration with a few light gates and a piece of card, but I don't know how available those tools are to you. I've made a picture of the set up I had thought about, you may find the physics a bit patronising but I felt like being ultra-clear =oP.

Also, you already know the max speed of the mice, and with s = v^2/2a, you should be able to calculate the max distance that any mouse will need to travel before it hits max speed and the results become less accurate.

Pic: http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/4995/mousetestzf4.jpg

<< Comment #681 @ 12:29 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #647

I see that kind of setup being very hard to keep accurate. The main problem is that the acceleration would have to be around 40g to produce any meaningful results. You can't do that with a weight.

The other problem is that the time for making readings at that kind of acceleration would be incredibly small, near to the USB polling rate. The timing would be practically impossible.

Also as I mentioned before, if the acceleration is not constant then you have to somehow synch up the movement of the mouse to the response on the PC. Small changes in synch would result in large fluctuations in the results.

The main problem is, of course, getting 40g acceleration and being able to measure it in a meaningful way and without the apparatus getting torn up.

The piston idea that someone else suggested would make a lot more sense - pushing the mouse surface back and forth very rapidly.

<< Comment #115 @ 12:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

h3i

Omfg, posting in a sticky!

<< Comment #123 @ 12:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #115

i made it sticky :P

<< Comment #124 @ 12:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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h3i - Reply to #123

Yea me too, but im guessing not in the same way. Tissue please.

3%

<< Comment #127 @ 12:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #124

hehe

<< Comment #117 @ 12:37 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

CLains

+$+$+$+$+$+article, will read later. Good job! :D

<< Comment #129 @ 12:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Twist`

Looks fantastic, going to read it after work.

<< Comment #130 @ 12:56 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lethe

awesome work man...

could pads be next? some mouse+pad combo maybe?

:)

Edit: i really hate the fact that you cant just go and buy a pad, just like that, if you havent tried it before. i wanted to buy one of two razer mantis pads. but i dont know what is the difference between speed and control edition, and i sure as hell wont buy one and then realize that i should have bought the other.

so, your new article about pads is a lifesaviour, i think.

Edited by damage_ at 13:25 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #151 @ 13:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #130

Yep mousepads are next! This article was big enough without testing different pads.

3%

<< Comment #159 @ 13:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lethe - Reply to #151

will you marry me?

<< Comment #131 @ 12:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Powerer

Why did you not raise the usb hz of the Razer Diamondback to 1000 hz? This is not fair in the MX vs Razer fight!

<< Comment #152 @ 13:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #131

I tested ALL the mice at different frequencies. The Razer mouse response does not change at higher frequencies.

<< Comment #198 @ 14:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Powerer - Reply to #152

Mm... okay :p
I'm just pride about my Diamondback ;]

<< Comment #133 @ 13:03 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lethe

i know i've said it a moment ago, but again.

Awesome work man...

<< Comment #135 @ 13:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

snzStorm_ru

A4 X718 ftw!
I knew that :)

<< Comment #137 @ 13:09 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

therogue

if only it was possible to find a damn mx500 in the UK :(

<< Comment #164 @ 13:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sephir0th - Reply to #137

maybe get out of the village ;p

<< Comment #182 @ 14:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #164

mx500 isn't available at pc world, ebuyer, novatech (used to be my local) or anywhere else i could find in google

the best place i could find it was an ebay shop from the us

any recommendations for online, that ship to the UK at a reasonable price?

<< Comment #237 @ 15:58 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sephir0th - Reply to #182

ok, maybe the mx500 has become unavailable, but mx518 should still be in stock somewhere, and honestly it's the same mouse, except the extra ability to change your mousedpi, but 1600dpi is waaay too much for fps games

<< Comment #247 @ 16:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #237

did you actually read the review for both mice?

apparently overclocking the usb port for the mx518 made no difference, the mx500 however when overclocked removed the clipped area of negative acceleration

<< Comment #254 @ 16:27 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sephir0th - Reply to #247

i did but don't need to read the reviews, i have both extensive experience with mx500 & mx518 and i didn't really have any problems

Edited by Sephir0th at 16:28 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #265 @ 17:00 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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crow- - Reply to #254

oh well then...

<< Comment #267 @ 17:06 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #254

that wasn't the point

and if you don't need to read reviews, i suggest leaving this thread

3%

<< Comment #320 @ 18:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #254

I suggest leaving ESR.

<< Comment #323 @ 19:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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MOTHERRUSSIA - Reply to #137

Check UK's Ebay. There are plenty of them there.

<< Comment #330 @ 19:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #323

second hand when I looked (about six months ago when my mx500 broke)

<< Comment #349 @ 20:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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MOTHERRUSSIA - Reply to #330

Well, i doubt you checked it good enough.
You might want to check again as it clearly states "sealed" or "brand new" in every signle case right now.

GBP 11.96

Edited by halftheman at 20:33 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #359 @ 21:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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therogue - Reply to #349

o0o, that sounds good, think i'll get a couple after xmas

<< Comment #138 @ 13:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

fag with no name

holy shit, this is one hell of a mice article.

<< Comment #139 @ 13:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Space Cowboy

but this mouse will be a disappointemnt for gamers that prefer low sensitivity

:>

Edit: Found this on the last paragraph of page 11.

Edited by Space Cowboy at 13:18 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #157 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #139

thx

<< Comment #149 @ 13:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Putton

great article sujoy! :)

<< Comment #165 @ 13:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (179.Red-88-3-109.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)

A bit off topic.
Its funny how DPI has the same placebo effect in mice as in printers. People buy the 4800 x 1200 dpi printer, when you only need between 300-600 dpi to print on standard paper (more dpi will make the paper too wet and ink and the dots will be absorved all over the papel).
On photopaper to reach 4800 x 1200, you'll need an image so large, its only compatible with tiff or psd formats and you would need a 2227 Megapixel camera to achieve the maximum resolution your 'home' printer can handel. Ofc you need real special photopaper to get those dots stick to their place. (If the image is smaller than a sheet of paper you wont need as much, but just to put things on perspective).

People who play decently have a medium-low sensitivity or use accel, at those speeds the 400 dpi is more than enough. If you use high sensitivity there are other factors that will be more important, as how chilly it is, the sweat on your hand going to the mousepad and adding a little bit of friction, the change of mass in your arm muscle from moving some furniture, etc.

<< Comment #155 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Kensi

Dunno if its been mentioned, but the MX300 only runs at 800dpi if you install the logitech drivers. With the default drivers, it only runs at 400dpi, as you noticed. Likewise for the MX500.

Edited by Kensi at 13:20 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #158 @ 13:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

GUMBAL

nice look A4tech X7, jungle:q

Edited by GUMBAL at 13:20 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #160 @ 13:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nukm

gj, its great to have some real data
altough i have to say that i want more ;) keep up the testing, im realy looking forward to the next test setups that will covere the other parameters...

btw: i didnt realy follow all of the 1000 mouse discussion here on esr, but werent mcfly and other usualy also raging about problems when moving the a mouse realy slow?

<< Comment #163 @ 13:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sephir0th

logitech mx mice are for real men with big hands :P
all the other mice are for girly hands like iiiiiiiinkind (c'mon make an effort, my little predictable borat bitch)

Edited by Sephir0th at 13:25 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #168 @ 13:29 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Cash

seems the A4teck is the winner. Just 15 pounds and such pwnage performance...

Nice...

<< Comment #171 @ 13:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

efplusplus

awesome stuff.
Howcome the shape and weight wasn't benchmarked? Due to individual preferences?

<< Comment #172 @ 13:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

hypno

ah! now no one will joke again about my 400dpi @ mx518 =D

great article ;)

<< Comment #173 @ 13:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mew

give me a G3 with the mx300 sensor. :)

<< Comment #178 @ 13:56 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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noctis - Reply to #173

me too pls.... PLS :(

<< Comment #174 @ 13:37 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Zaccubus

very nice Job sujoy !

<< Comment #175 @ 13:39 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

stewie

gg esr:)

<< Comment #176 @ 13:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ashr

very nice. a few questions though. what did you use to overclock usb polling rate and did you test all the mice out of the box or with fixes to firmware, latest drivers and stuff like that? (some say those are important when it comes to razer mice)

also i agree with malum. the final score is kinda misleading :P

Edited by ashr at 14:01 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #177 @ 13:54 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dialin-80-228-134-052.ewe-ip-backbone.de)

"However only 6 are customisable as 2 are hardcoded to change the DPI while gaming."

this isnt exactly true..
with setpoint you are able to customize all 8 buttons!!

<< Comment #199 @ 14:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #177

I'll check again, I thought I couldn't change those.

<< Comment #239 @ 16:05 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #199

They are indeed adjustable, as I've set key-strokes on the DPI change (+ & -) so I can use them as buttons in all games. At one point I seem to remember that they did not always work on the first press, but that was either me pressing them poorly, or a change in SetPoint along the way, so as you have the most up-to-date SetPoint for the MX518 you should be fine.

Edited by d3mol!t!on at 16:07 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #192 @ 14:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Culan

what about the mx310 from logitech ?

its the same like the mx300?

awesome work sujoy!!

<< Comment #179 @ 13:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lith

No words can say how truly awesome this article is. My unnatural love for my MX300 is now explained... Just another thing to thank Sujoy for =)

<< Comment #185 @ 14:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

sk!a

Nothing more to say except superb stuff Sujoy! Thanks alot!

<< Comment #188 @ 14:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mindz

omg, ive actually got the best mouse. the mx 500 @ 1000Hz. nice1 :D

<< Comment #189 @ 14:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

legion_alien

Love the research and article.. probably one of the most insightful and needed research articles for gamers ever created.

All of my hype for the G5 though.. gave me a sinking feeling ...cause I own 2 of them... but I also own 2 mx518's and a 300.. so I that makes up for it :P

Very nice stuff man!

GGL Alien

1%

<< Comment #276 @ 17:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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tewic - Reply to #189

hehe same here, just two weeks ago I bought an extra G5 because one of the buttons got a bit damaged by my little dutch tape modding :P

bad feeling thinking I got 2x mx510, used for laptop and mums comp, and I use a "worse" mouse for gaming, shesh =P..

Sujoy, the MX500, how did it go with 250 or 500hz? because is it really possible to get a stable 1000z with that old mouse?

<< Comment #281 @ 17:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #276

I had no problem at 1000Hz. However for various reasons 500Hz seems to be the smart speed to set a USB device to. There are people far more knowledgable about the ports that will tell you why, I'm still learning about the tech there.

<< Comment #450 @ 10:44 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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tewic - Reply to #281

ah well, can always OC my usb mic while doing this, who knows, people might just hear me talk before I even open my mouth! h4x

<< Comment #190 @ 14:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

terrorhead

Thanks for this awesome article Sujoy. Hmm and it looks like Logitech is the winner here.

<< Comment #193 @ 14:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (pc-34-62-214-201.cm.vtr.net)

please include mx510 on your bench, lots of cs players use that mouse (don´t know why actually, but that´s the way it is)

great guide =D

<< Comment #197 @ 14:37 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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rolf - Reply to #193

510 is just a bugged version of 518 afaik

<< Comment #258 @ 16:40 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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wipeout - Reply to #197

It's a mx500 with 12bit instead of 8bit datapath.

<< Comment #266 @ 17:01 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

rolf - Reply to #258

reference link?

<< Comment #277 @ 17:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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wipeout - Reply to #266

My memory didn't serve me too well: http://www.mstarmetro.net/~rlowens/OpticalMouse/#thestats
It has an updated sensor chip (with a bigger datapath). It's basically just an updated mx500.

<< Comment #280 @ 17:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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rolf - Reply to #277

same sensor as mx310 it says. Anyway, got my info from the logitech tech support but I guess he was just saying stuff to sound smart.

<< Comment #282 @ 17:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #280

Hopefully I'll get one to test soon, wish I had it earlier.

<< Comment #194 @ 14:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mrkram

really nice work- thanks for the in depth review : >

<< Comment #191 @ 14:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

sauna

Good shit this!
MX518 is the closest thing I've come to feeling a Logitech MouseMan+ mouse in my hand again (which, I believe, would kick the asses of everyone of these mice).
It rocks. As does this article!

Edited by sauna at 14:33 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #195 @ 14:34 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (pc-34-62-214-201.cm.vtr.net)

please include mx510 on your bench, lots of cs players use that mouse (don´t know why, but that´s the way it is)

<< Comment #200 @ 14:39 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #195

Logitech are sending some mice soon so I should have the MX510 and 310 to test.

6%

<< Comment #325 @ 19:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

JayJay Binks - Reply to #200

go 510! =]

<< Comment #201 @ 14:42 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Powerer

Do you remember the good-old Logitech Wingman Gaming mouse? I still have two deadbodies in my case ;)

<< Comment #203 @ 14:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Demiurge '

"The mouse sensor actually sees the surface moving in a straight line, even though it is actually spinning."
Wait, what?
Shouldn't the cursor move in circles on screen, since physically, the sensor senses the same landscape and comes back to the same point each revolution?
Edit: I'm stupid.

Edited by Yeltsin at 14:49 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #216 @ 15:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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xgo - Reply to #203

:)

<< Comment #204 @ 14:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ted

amazing work, thanks

<< Comment #205 @ 14:48 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

fuzz

/me proud user of MX500 and G1

Great article !

<< Comment #208 @ 14:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Aquashark

good read
also nice example video with CPM & stuff -> now that's skill..

[+]

<< Comment #213 @ 15:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

13m3

Wow this article is REALLY great. Awesome!!!

I'm not sure but I guess the results for MX 510 will be the same as MX 500, as MX 510 is (as far as I know) just a LIGHTER MX 500. I'm proud to own one of those.. hehe

<< Comment #214 @ 15:15 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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hemostick - Reply to #213

It has a different sensor, it should have G1-like results if I remember correctly.

<< Comment #218 @ 15:19 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #214

Yeah it should, I used a Med-High sensitivity with the mx510 and managed to get it to freak out all the time :/

<< Comment #235 @ 15:54 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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13m3 - Reply to #214

In that case, I won't be proud anymore =\

<< Comment #217 @ 15:17 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mentalist

n1 sujoy.

one question.. Does overclocking the usb rate have any effect on in game sensitivity or does it just make everything smoother?

<< Comment #220 @ 15:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Demiurge ' - Reply to #217

smoother

<< Comment #232 @ 15:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Fortress - Reply to #217

it does, usually it makes it a little less

Edited by Fortress at 15:38 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #403 @ 00:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Fortress - Reply to #232

can't remember actually if more or less

<< Comment #318 @ 18:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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www.ninemil.com ' - Reply to #217

Something I was pondering at work after reading this - is there any way to tell if a particular mouse can't 'handle' having the USB poll rate increased?

Going back a year I used to have a ms 3.0 that I had clocked to 500 hz. At 1000 hz it used to lag behind my movements a fair bit and behave eractically. At 500 hz it felt better and my accuracy seemed to improve compared to 125 hz.

After it died I got a Copperhead which feels completely different at 1000 hz - as tho I'd lost a good 10-20ms when railing, despite it skipping a lot more frequently on flick rails (which this article explains nicely :p)

I'm wondering if the 3.0's behaviour could be put down to the hardware choking at higher poll rates...

<< Comment #219 @ 15:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ini

Great article.

From the pictures it looks like the Krait will fit my mouse grip perfectly and has the better sensor etc.

One question I have though is:

- How much does the Krait and WMO weigh?

I use the WMO at the moment and love the fact that it is really light (mx510 would hurt my wrist after a while).

I'll probably still get one anyway but it would be nice to know in advance of course :)

<< Comment #224 @ 15:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

raw

Probably a daft question but I had a quick scan through all the comments and info for the mouse i have, which is a MS Laser Mouse 6000 and i noticed the improvements once overclocked.

I dont really play anything to active these days but i'd be really interested in overclocking it to see for myself, what software is best to use to do this? for a Microsoft mouse?

Thanks

<< Comment #230 @ 15:33 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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raw - Reply to #224

Doesnt matter now.

I did some googling and found the info i needed :)

<< Comment #226 @ 15:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

1ecb61110

WTS: Logitech mx500 starting bid $500 -> buyout $750

don't hesitate ;p

<< Comment #227 @ 15:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

starscream

when overclocking a usb port, is there any problems that can arise?

<< Comment #229 @ 15:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

hemostick

In the G5 review :

It looks very different to other mice because of the chord and the reduction in friction means that you feel it tugging less if you leave your chord laying on the table or mousepad.

<< Comment #231 @ 15:35 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Troll

BORING!, ok i joke, awesome!

<< Comment #240 @ 16:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (24-216-160-53.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com)

One thing you didn't cover in this article, that I've found affects mouse performance, is lint/hair in the optical cavity. The best mouse will behave badly when there's a little piece of lint or a fine hair waving about in there, even when it's almost impossible to see.

You might want to check the... mouses? mice?... that performed poorly for little pieces of lint or fine hairs. Also, you might want to check all mice for resistance to picking up such lint in their optical cavities.

2%

<< Comment #453 @ 10:51 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #240

The steelpad qck+ mat I was using is good at not shedding fibres. I will check the eye on the sensor when I retest any mice for any material though.

<< Comment #241 @ 16:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Adacore

Sell MX500 to rabid lowsensers for lots of monies, buy MX518, got it.

Seriously - great article, one thing I'd personally like to see (which is obviously very, very hard to test for objectively) is reliability. I've heard lots of people report faults with Razer mice, and from the comments here the Logitech MX series has some problems with the cord failing. As I said though, very hard to test, and there isn't really a way of doing so short of random polling of mouse users, that I can think of.

Edited by Adacore at 09:48 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #246 @ 16:16 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #241

My DB never had any problems, whereas my logitech ones all broke (cord/mouse buttons) after about a year of use each.

<< Comment #260 @ 16:43 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

juxx - Reply to #241

all depends on how lucky you are with the mouse you bought, everyone praises the wmo yet mine broke after half a year while I'm still using my mx510 after 2/3years

<< Comment #234 @ 15:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ob3n

One of the best and useful articles out there, great work.

<< Comment #242 @ 16:12 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (195.86.52.154)

From a happy, long time mx500 user:

Regarding the 400dpi on it, I remember that back in the day there was talk about how to enable it. I think it was only done by people who did not want to use the logitech mouseware, but you might want to check it out.

It's actually being talked about in this ESR Logitech Drivers & Tweaking topic
at the " Logitech MX300/500/700 Acceleration and DPI Fix" part:

Change the following settings in "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESYSTEMCurrentControlSetServicesLMouFlt2ParametersOpticalMouse11
->set "Resolution" to "8"

Maybe you can check if this value actually matters in any way

Apart from that, great article, deserves a permanent spot on the esr main page
Can't wait for new additions like the Deathadder and other stuff like mousepads.

Edited by Sujoy at 10:50 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #256 @ 16:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

xoji - Reply to #242

I recall being able to set the DPI to 800 on the mx300 a while back, i think it also fixed the negative excel complaint that we had back then. Can't quite remember though.

Logitech just need the G3 with the best sensor inside and it'll then be perfect.

<< Comment #279 @ 17:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Erk - Reply to #242

Change the following settings in "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESYSTEMCurrentControlSetServicesLMouFlt2ParametersOpticalMouse11
->set "Resolution" to "8"

With that setting, the drivers signal the mouse to use 400DPI if I remeber correctly. No matter what you do there will be loads of negative accel with MX500@800dpi when using usb@125hz. It can't be changed because of hardware limitations. Only fix is to overclock the USB port.

<< Comment #236 @ 15:56 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mev

I dont like all the usb hz rate klocking. my old mouse, mx500 seams to be the best you can have if you OC the USB port. But CPL, WSVG and all the other big quake 4 tournaments dont allow that. So they are denying us to have the best preformance a mouse can have. But in another point of view, why do ppl even use it from the start? you think you gona beat toxic if you use it? Hes not using it and hes atm the best. So therefore you can see its TOTALLY unessecery. So please stop telling others to use the SHIT! its like giving crack to a kid =7 Yep, i hate it..

Edited by mev at 15:58 UTC, 11 December 2006

1%

<< Comment #238 @ 16:05 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

mentalist - Reply to #236

not everyone aims to be the best at duel, or even plays it for that matter. There are other mods like CTF, Rocket Arena where the best players are not necessarily well known.

<< Comment #244 @ 16:13 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #236

Toxic's sensitivity doesn't require him to move his mouse at some of the speeds seen here to do a 180/360 turn.

<< Comment #250 @ 16:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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13m3 - Reply to #244

Even because Toxic DON'T NEED to do fast 180's.

<< Comment #248 @ 16:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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13m3 - Reply to #236

It's just like this, if Toxic is "very good" without it, imagine what he would be WITH it. Wouldn't he be EVEN BETTER? Yes, and that's a FACT. And THAT is what matters.

<< Comment #404 @ 00:57 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Fortress - Reply to #248

nope.

<< Comment #251 @ 16:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

tom

well done suj

<< Comment #253 @ 16:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

m1ndphuq

Wow you were right about me being suprised. And here I thought my mx500 mouse was going to be laughed at in these tests.
Abit of a shame though as I use high sensensitivity and although I love the bottons I'm more at home with wingman type shaped mice. AS great as the mx500 is, logically it seems as it isnt for me. Oh well, still love it.
One question though, the mx500/mx300 at 1000hz is I'm sure fantastic but I and I assume many others will only overclock it to 500hz, which you even recommened. Is there a chance we can get some numbers on how the mx500/mx300 performs at this 500hz just for the sake of rubbing it in the faces of my MS intelli mouse using freinds. :p

Thanks Sujoy. Great job.

Oh this post needs a manditory "Give us a Wingman with tweaked mx300/mx500 optics.. maybe at 800dpi" :) :) :)

<< Comment #255 @ 16:29 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Nukm

i would like to see the result of an old ball mice but into your testing setup
i have no idea if a ball mice sends similar data, so i dont know if it is even compareable, but it would be interseting to see how these old mice would perform

<< Comment #264 @ 16:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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m1ndphuq - Reply to #255

I think that would be interesting as well. There are a few old ball mice I'd love to see stacked up just for shits and giggles. Mice like the Logitech Wingman and the Razer Boomslang are a few I'd be most interested in.
Just remembering what ZeRo4 back in the day was capable of doing with his cheapo MS ball mouse when everyone else was using optics would, to me at least say that they arent completely useless. :)
*I miss the wingman though.. :p

<< Comment #370 @ 22:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nukm - Reply to #255

Sujoy? would be nice to here what you think about this

<< Comment #257 @ 16:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

BehindY0u

There's something weird with your diamondback results; with my diamondback plasma at 50cm/360 I experience a noticeable difference between 1600dpi and 400dpi for negative acceleration. At 1600dpi the negative acceleration is terrible whereas at 400dpi it is non-existent or negligible (while flicking rapidly the mouse). How come you don't notice a difference between both resolutions?

<< Comment #321 @ 19:01 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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douille - Reply to #257

On q3 engine, that's because of another problem, the calculation of your "pointer movement".
Some better english talking person could explain it, but i can't.

You can fix it with Direct Input.

<< Comment #413 @ 02:02 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Radea - Reply to #257

Like poster above me said, Q3 doesn't use direct input, it instead uses the movement of the windows cursor, and every frame it resets it to the center of the screen. So with high DPI (And low resolution, and low fps), the negative acceleration occurs when the pointer hits the right or left edge of the screen before it is reset.

<< Comment #415 @ 02:11 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #413

Yes, it does use DirectInput. Thats why you have /in_mouse

<< Comment #416 @ 02:14 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Radea - Reply to #415

I suppose you're right, in_mouse 1 does use direct input. However, it's a poor implementation (buffering -> lag), so most people don't use it. I'm guessing the person I replied to uses in_mouse -1, which does indeed mean his q3 doesnt use direct input.

Edited by Radea at 02:15 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #418 @ 02:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #416

"I'm guessing the person I replied to uses in_mouse -1"
Why? I think its actually more common, being the default.

<< Comment #419 @ 02:21 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Radea - Reply to #418

Two things, the problem I mentioned above (lagged actions), and the second being the fact that he's experiencing more negative acceleration at 1600 dpi than 400.

<< Comment #484 @ 13:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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douille - Reply to #416

I play enemy territory, and there's no DI in this game.
I played 1 year with mf_init, which makes DI come back, and now I just lowered my DPI.

<< Comment #623 @ 12:01 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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BehindY0u - Reply to #413

Ok I tried with ut2004 but I still get the same results.

<< Comment #259 @ 16:41 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

wipeout

Well done. Interesting results :]

<< Comment #261 @ 16:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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hamst

omg that mew vid! looks like WAY too much effort to be a low sens player? surely small movements generally more accurate than large anyway?

<< Comment #608 @ 08:59 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #261

low sensitivity is always more accurate, its only a matter of getting your arm used to it. the lower your sensitivity is, the larger errors you can make without them mattering ingame. basically its about missing less. :)

and a low sensitivity also helps a LOT if you have jittery hands.

and having played like that for over two years, i can say its nothing a normal person couldnt handle. you just have to ask yourself, how much are you willing to sacrifice for more accuracy? :D

<< Comment #633 @ 14:01 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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hamst - Reply to #608

i don't really see how it would work. it must just be preference. i mean if i want to make a 180 turn and rail someone its only a small precise movement, whereas u would have to move the mouse all the way accross the pad. i just don't think theres any way that could be as accurate.
i guess it's all down to personal style, but just saying i don't agree with lower sens = more accuracy :)

<< Comment #634 @ 15:29 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #633

you're looking at this from a personal point of view as a high sensitivity player, but in fact its quite simple.

if you take a robot that has a given error marginal in its arm movements of lets say +/- 5cm. if you make that robot do that 180 flick rail in two different sensitivities, the result would be clear.

on a sensitivity of 360°/55cm an error move of 5cm would be 32.7° ingame.
the same error on a 540°/55cm sensitivity would be 49°.

the human arm has incredible muscle memory through repetition, so flick rails on a low sensitivity wont be a problem.

6%

<< Comment #262 @ 16:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

s1k

great so far i looked through, thx !
pls add the mice wheight into specs listing.
and for mice with additional wheights pls the
mouseweight without any weight inside.

<< Comment #263 @ 16:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Thorin

Impressive stuff Sujoy, that level of thorough investigation exceeded my expectations.

Sujoy Roy has been analysing hardcore data

haha, I'll bet he has

<< Comment #268 @ 17:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #263

i heard he likes hardcore :P

<< Comment #689 @ 14:12 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Thorin - Reply to #268

Were you in the next door room like? <o/

Edited by Thorin at 14:12 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #271 @ 17:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (mail.conquestbm.com)

Impressive but a single score for each mouse based on performance is crazy, as you clearly state at teh start of the article, there are lot's of different sensitivitys that gamers use.

Lower DPI mice are going to have less problems with acceleration and tracking, where as higher DPI mouse this is going to be more obvious.

No one in their right mind would buy a high DPI mouse if they were only going to play at low sensitivity, therefore higher DPI mice such as the 2000+ range shouldn't be punished for bad performance at fast speeds, because at those faster speeds the translation to in game movement would be huge (way more than anyone could cope with) making that downside rather a moot point.

Work on weighting your scores or produce seperate scores for high sens, medium sens and low sens (maybe extend these upto 5 different type, v low, low, medium, high and v high)

<< Comment #312 @ 18:43 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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peterg - Reply to #271

I agree, right now the scores seem very bias towards how low sensitivity players would rate the mice as large perfect control, and large malfunction speed net lots of points. For medium, and high sensitivity players these don't matter nearly as much.

<< Comment #332 @ 19:42 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #312

Then all you need to worry about is the DPI?

<< Comment #272 @ 17:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (adsl-89-217-9-207.adslplus.ch)

wow, i need 0.01m for 360 degrees at 800x600 = 4000 DPI!
so which mouse should i take? actually i have the razer copperhead.

<< Comment #339 @ 20:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lunatic - Reply to #272

So you do a 360 degree turn in 1 centimeter? I suggest taking a robotic arm then :P

<< Comment #269 @ 17:09 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

crow-

Nice article Sujoy, just wanted to ask two things...

Is there an easy program to overclock your USB port and if so might be an idea to include it in the article as I'd say a lot of people would be interested in doing it after reading the results.

Also I've talked to a lot of people who use no mouse drivers because at a lot of lans it's just extra stress to try sort drivers. They claim you can just get used to using no drivers. Would you say you are likely to get much worse performance doing this?

Oh and finally, I still love my MS IE3.0! After using Logitech mouse my whole life I changed over to it and the shape just feels... nice, which no technical analysis can measure. I guess a lot of people agree going on it's popularity.

<< Comment #306 @ 18:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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wipeout - Reply to #269

As mentioned before in the comments: http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/hidusbf.zip

<< Comment #278 @ 17:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

zogzilla

how i change my Hz in win XP ? exist for this system PS2 Rate?

<< Comment #342 @ 20:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lunatic - Reply to #278

read 6 replies up....

<< Comment #285 @ 17:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (ppp47-221.lns2.syd6.internode.on.net)

Outstanding work - and about time someone did this.
One notable lack though - what about older ball mice?
How do they compare in these tests?

I've recently switched back to one after realising that the skippiness and nonlinearity of my optical mouse were effectively *killing* FPS games for me.
Right when i was starting to hit my stride, i'd make a snap aiming movement, and unexpectedly find myself looking either in the air or at my feet. :(

One other point regarding DPI.
Exactly how accurate can a human position their hand anyway? Especially under stress?
It's been my conclusion that increasing DPI only allows the mouse to pick up more 'movement noise'.
Ie, tiny unintentional movements caused by your blood pressure and much larger random noise from the proportional operation of your mucsles. (which arn't, muscle fibres, AFAIK, can be either 'on' or 'off, you can move your hands proportionally because you've got a lot of nerves switching in and out muscle fibres as needed.)

If you tried to take advantage of very high DPI, you might simply find your screen appearing to get motion blur (assuming perfect frame rate) because of this random noise.

Anyway, i digress.
I eagerly await further testing :)

RGD2
(occasional ut2k4 player.)

<< Comment #286 @ 17:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (adsl-67-37-246-166.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)

Great review! but I am sad that I just bought a copperhead 2 weeks ago... to replace my MX500...
I think a few people have asked, but did you test the laser mice at lesser dpi? ch@ 800dpi seems a lot more reliable than at 2000 to me.

<< Comment #288 @ 17:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-d25b70d5.041-5-73746f7.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)

Honestly, I don't care about what the mouse score on the benchmark, pretty much any mouse is responsive enough for me.

The most important aspects of a mouse (how it fits your hand, and how it feels) are unquantifiable? I don't care about dpi or whatever, I want to be able to use it all day without getting RSI (Repetive Stress Injury) or mouse-arm, etc.

<< Comment #317 @ 18:52 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #288

This is an objective review?

<< Comment #289 @ 17:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (p5090FF17.dip.t-dialin.net)

hi,
i would love to see a review of the x-750bf with the laser sensor because it seems to be the top-of-the-line product by a4tech.
you did an awesome job! thx
timm

<< Comment #290 @ 17:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (h0d936d16e0.dhcp-tex.umassd.edu)

For the sake of comparison, it would be interesting to see the old Microsoft Ball Mouse. Just to see how it stacks up to today's mice. It can be overclocked too, lol.

http://pcsale.co.nz/catalog/images/products/dat_10205.jpg

<< Comment #292 @ 17:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Lethe

when do you plan doing the mouse+pad review sujoy?

<< Comment #293 @ 17:51 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_

I was wondering if you could add the mx300/500 to the final comparison graphs with them set at 125hz. I know they just own at 1000hz, but not everyone has perfect success with OCing USB and would just help the overall comparison. I'm also kind of suprised to see that you didn't try overclocking the USB on the MX518 and the like.

<< Comment #300 @ 18:08 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #293

If there is no information regarding usb-ocing, then there has been no measureable effect at different hz-values [on max. speed/perf. control] - sujoy

ps: try usb mouserate switcher alternatively to hidusbf.exe

Edited by malum at 18:12 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #305 @ 18:29 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_ - Reply to #300

Ah, ok thnx.

<< Comment #294 @ 17:52 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

renrut

Great article, was very interesting to read. Well done!

<< Comment #296 @ 17:55 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

AK

awesome thread!

<< Comment #298 @ 18:02 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

john_sim

---

Edited by john_sim at 15:56 UTC, 27 September 2020

<< Comment #345 @ 20:28 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lunatic - Reply to #298

it is the same sensor (IntelliEye) as the Wheel Mouse Optical and IntelliMouse Explorer

<< Comment #299 @ 18:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Requ13m

Best. Article. Ever.

And perfectly timed for me, as my MX518 is dying, and I was trying to decide what I should get to replace it. I had been leaning towards the G5, as I had bought into the idea that laser > optical, but now I'm not so sure.

The last two mice I've had (MX500 and MX518) seem to be the best choices. The MX500 seems to have the edge when you overclock the USB port, but I'm too lazy to bother with that. So perhaps another MX518 is in order for me.

Oh, and for those in the USA that are looking for the MX500, it is currently in stock at Newegg. I don't know if they do international shipping or not.

Edited by Requ13m at 19:28 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #314 @ 18:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ix - Reply to #299

Speaking as an MX518 user and G5 owner don't buy the G5. Well unless you use a high sens and don't mind a mouse that's super sensitive to small tilts while you move it.

<< Comment #301 @ 18:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Rad1us

Thank you for your effort in this shootout and im a very proud owner of the MX518. :>

<< Comment #302 @ 18:22 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

chuky

how mouse tests were done

Edited by chuky at 18:26 UTC, 11 December 2006

76%

<< Comment #310 @ 18:42 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Nicky - Reply to #302

lol

<< Comment #327 @ 19:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Rad1us - Reply to #302

lol

def a [+] I love ppl with great attitudes like this :D:D:D

<< Comment #326 @ 19:20 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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juxx - Reply to #302

rofl ::d:d

<< Comment #350 @ 20:37 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #302

Notice how the Copperhead got chucked for the WMO :P

<< Comment #405 @ 01:00 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Fortress - Reply to #302

wow, how did you do it so that it's in perspective?
<--- noob

<< Comment #406 @ 01:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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chuky - Reply to #405

I copy/pasted the table so it made a new layer. Then I put sujoy in a layer in between.

<< Comment #311 @ 18:43 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

dml!

By the way, what is the exact model of that A4Tech mouse? X7 is their series of "gamer" mice, but they have different models under that. I'm assuming by the skin, extra button in the left mouse button, and 1000dpi limit that it is the X-710BF. Now, there are also the X-718 models with a 2000dpi optical sensor, and the X-750 models with a 2500dpi laser sensor. I'm especially interested in the X-718 because that seems to be the most available of the A4Tech X7 range from what I've seen, but regardless, would you be able to get your hands on the X-718 and X-750 (I don't think the letters after apply to the sensor, so whatever for those) for the benchmarks?

<< Comment #313 @ 18:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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peterg - Reply to #311

I'd really like to see these tested as well given how well their brother did. :)

<< Comment #338 @ 20:24 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #311

I'll try to get more A4tech mice to test. To be honest I had to buy a lot of these mice so there was a limit to how many I can pay for. Hopefully the mouse people will send me the mice now for testing instead of me having to buy or beg for them.

<< Comment #315 @ 18:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

ix

It's not that hard to malfunction (stare at the floor or ceiling) the MX518@500hz on a FATpad, I do it fairly regularly when flicking RJs at 42cm/360 sens.

<< Comment #500 @ 14:20 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ashr - Reply to #315

that's odd. the db plasma uses the same sensor afaik? never had a problem with it skipping even during flick rails or rjs (40cm/360)

<< Comment #316 @ 18:50 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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peterg

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think you can raise certain logitech mice's DPI with this program. I used it on my MX310 anyhow, but can't test it works, but it says it did. Plus I notice a difference between 400 and 800.

http://www.qwplayers.org/pg/logi.zip
logi.exe -s 800(400 to set it back to default)
-h shows all the commands

<< Comment #990 @ 00:24 UTC, 12 January 2010 >>

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h8m3 - Reply to #316

still got it?

<< Comment #319 @ 18:53 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

zealot

The krait pic link actually links to the fatality1010 pictures. Might want to edit that :)

One thing I didn't understand while reading was how did you come up with those m/s figures? Is there a reasonable way to measure this by myself? I couldn't come up with one.

Really interesting for me personally was after the hating I received in the forums for actually liking my G3 (hey mcfly...) the article proves it to be almost perfect for me as a player. Since I never managed to make it malfunction I have to play with a speed below 1.35m/s and seeing as the G3 has perfect control at up to 1.3m/s I get all I could ever ask for.

The only gripe I have with the ratings besides the inclusion of buttons as something positive is that you did not include the usb hz overclocking abilities into the final score. The downside of the G1/510 is them getting unstable at anything above 250hz. This is also the reason why I originally took a look at the G3.

<< Comment #322 @ 19:10 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (221-134-208-73.sify.net)

Absolutely awesome.
I have been trying to find out what optical engine that the microsoft comfort optical 3000 uses...i find this mouse quite suited to me cos of my large hands and it works fine with the USB at 250hz.
Can anyone enlighten me here?

<< Comment #324 @ 19:14 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

peterg

So what's the best mouse for high sensitivity users?

<< Comment #340 @ 20:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #324

If you really need the DPI and you can hold the Fatal1ty 2020 mouse, then it's the best for high DPI. Otherwise MX518/Diamondback/Krait

1%

<< Comment #328 @ 19:23 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (host-84-221-85-129.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)

I repeat here what I posted on crossfire:
You tested the maximum speed of the mice, but not the maximum acceleration.
The mx518 has an higher maximum speed than the g5, and that's something that I noticed too; but the maximum acceleration it can detect is much smaller. This means that as long as you move the mouse @ not too large distances (let's say 10 cm), you can turn faster with the g5. Also, for things that require instantaneous changes of speed, such as compensating pistol/sniper recoil in enemy territory, the g5 performs much better. This is not only supported by my personal experience: if you look at the specifications on logitech page, it does actually show maximum accelerations, and the reported value for the g5 is higher
(curiously though, the reported max speed for the g5 is also higher and that suggests that those stats may not be too reliable)

<< Comment #341 @ 20:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #328

It's a lot harder to make a repeatable test for acceleration. I'm working on something but there's still a long way to go.

<< Comment #387 @ 23:57 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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fur*q - Reply to #341

Just use a vestax pdx2000 set it to 45 + 50% pitch and mess with the start-up controls to get a nice accel rate, bingo repeatable accel test.

<< Comment #391 @ 00:14 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #387

Would that kind of acceleration push any mouse to its limit? I think it would need something a lot more violent.

<< Comment #407 @ 01:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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fur*q - Reply to #391

Yea i spose you are right. Have you seen that chav ride clip on youtube? I think you know what to do now.

<< Comment #329 @ 19:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

maxje

Seeing the results from this test makes me glad to have sticked with my mx500 for so long (about 3 years now, i think). :)

Very nice article, good job! I think the final table with the overall score is a bit deceiving though, it really depends as you've indicated earlier in the article what kind of sensitivity you use to see which mouse is best for you.

If you're a low sens player, you'll prolly want the mouse to score well at the "perfect control" and "malfunction speed", a high sens player would like more DPI and as a med sens player you want the best of both worlds. Maybe you could make a top 3 for each catagory?

<< Comment #333 @ 19:42 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (179.Red-88-3-109.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)

I would like to add the "standard quake DPI test":
That is, 800x600, fov = 100
360/100 = 3.6
800x3.6 = 2880

2800 / 4'' = 700 DPI for extremely high sensitivity
2800 / 10'' = 280 DPI for medium sensitivity
2800 / 20'' = 140 DPI for low sensitivity

no one plays quake at 4'' and manages to have good aim :P
so basically the dpi is rendered useless for quake

<< Comment #344 @ 20:28 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Bnew - Reply to #333

Interesting point. But what about those who use mouseaccel?

<< Comment #347 @ 20:31 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #344

You would need even less dpi if you had mouseaccel surely?

<< Comment #352 @ 20:40 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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zealot - Reply to #333

thanks for pointing this out :) yea most people will play at 800x600 and with fov 100.

<< Comment #669 @ 05:55 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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poindexter - Reply to #333

"no one plays quake at 4'' and manages to have good aim :P"

lies

<< Comment #331 @ 19:39 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

stoneeh

so, we know it for sure now. you cant get over 99%

<< Comment #346 @ 20:30 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #331

I reduced [+] power last week, so it's a lot harder now. Technically it shouldn't be possible, but with rounding errors I'm not sure.

2%

<< Comment #351 @ 20:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stoneeh - Reply to #346

[+] :)

and a great article you have there, very interesting read; now get it out there to the world

<< Comment #335 @ 20:04 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (host86-131-176-127.range86-131.btcentralplus.com)

My copperhead has never let me down while using the speed side of the razer exactmat. i play counter strike source at a high skill level and i use the lowest sensitivity out of all the gamers i have asked (i use 0.8, lowest ive found is 1) and when i use my copperhead i have to do alot of quick movements, and this mouse has performed perfecty every time without fail using 2000DPI @ 1000Hz.

I started off using the control side of the mousemat, this resulted in malfucion speed reaching at quite low speeds, and sometimes costing me frags and sometimes even important matches. once i switched to the speed side there has not been a problem like that and i have improved my game alot because of this.

Just to let you know.

<< Comment #343 @ 20:27 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #335

I shall definitely do more testing on the Razer mousemats as soon as I can get one. These tests were all done on the Steelpad QcK+.

<< Comment #355 @ 20:46 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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stoneeh - Reply to #343

i think there might be minor inaccuracies, but on the whole it seems logically and also goes along with my experience
also, about what someone a few posts ago wrote about acceleration, i think you can to a useful degree derive acceleration performance from speed performance. after all, there is not so much difference in this case
so, it's a very steady review
ah yeah and sujoy, if you read this: you might also include weight of the mouse if you want. i dont like big and heavy mice at all, so for people like me, a weight comparision would be very helpful, so i can rule out some mice from the very beginning ^^

<< Comment #378 @ 23:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #355

I second the weight measurements. That's not something to overlook.

<< Comment #353 @ 20:42 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #335

How many cm for a 360 turn is that? I don't play CSS, but still 0.8 sounds crazy :P

<< Comment #377 @ 23:06 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #353

I use the same sensitivity with my DB: it's 45cm/360 with 1600dpi. That would make his 36cm/360 - which should definitely be enough to make the Copperhead skip. In other words, there's something going on in here.

Edited by Ezku at 23:08 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #336 @ 20:07 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

wocK_

i have new found love for my mx518 :)

great article sujoy!

<< Comment #337 @ 20:11 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

visje

Nice one, but there is one thing that is not concidered: usb mice on ps/2. USB often has a shared IRQ, and is resource hungry where PS/2 has it's own IRQ and does not use any noticable resources. USB throughput depends on running processes and PS/2 does not.

PS/2 (@ 200hz) feels way smoother for me than USB, even USB @ 500hz. Ok the refresh interval might be lower, but to be honest there is not a human being out there that actually notices the difference.

<< Comment #348 @ 20:32 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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DiGiTracker - Reply to #337

/me waits for the people who can feel 500 hz difference to claim that you can't notice the difference between ps2 200 hz and usb 200 hz ;)

<< Comment #356 @ 20:48 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Lunatic - Reply to #337

something can also matter in unawareness
fact is, the less delay the better. 125hz =8 ms, 1000hz=1ms

<< Comment #360 @ 21:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

bud

mx518 $$$$$$$$$$$$ YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<< Comment #362 @ 21:36 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (58.173.192.37)

Awesome writeup dude. Really well done, and informative. Keep up the great work. Definately a first for mouse benchmarking.

<< Comment #364 @ 21:43 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (ip54543b55.speed.planet.nl)

Very nice review, makes sense and I tested a lot myself (amateur) and I recognize a few things on the G5/G3 microsoft habu. I play low/med sensitivity and the G5 was a waste of money for me...

<< Comment #363 @ 21:41 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

MAKO

Is it just me that prefers the feel and plays better with default usb hz, when i use higher hz my aim goes to hell... mx510, preferred my ms opti blue tbh, thinking back further ms ball mouse was the bomb!

<< Comment #365 @ 21:44 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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bud

Question, did u test the mx518 at 125hz only!?
Better or worse at 250/500/1000 or just the same? =/

<< Comment #452 @ 10:50 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #365

He tested changeing Hz and it had no effect on the graph.

1%

<< Comment #554 @ 22:22 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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bud - Reply to #452

cool, ty for answer =)

<< Comment #368 @ 21:52 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (pool-71-105-204-26.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

i don't know this article seems different. and fishy the charts don't even display what they are showing...goes to show how proffessional it is....

<< Comment #394 @ 00:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #368

I'm not sure what you mean, I thought the charts marked everything they were showing? I would agree that it's hard to make the claim that my figures are right without someone else doing a similar independent test and getting the same results. However if any of the mouse manufacturers want to dispute the results I am happy to run them in front of one of their reps.

<< Comment #367 @ 21:49 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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humi-mar

Excellent article. There's no replacement for a good scientific method.

<< Comment #369 @ 22:02 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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By

FoxFaction

Wonderful article. This article is what I wish my mouse article would have been that I wrote so long ago. I'm glad someone is finally able to put numbers to this stuff.

I would like to see the mx1000 tested, I was kind of suprised it wasn't. I'm really looking forward to the future mousepad tests. I'm curious as to if the mousepad makes any difference on the capability of the sensor to read accurately.

<< Comment #371 @ 22:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (90.84-49-75.nextgentel.com)

A question:
What sideeffects are there for compensating for a high DPI with a low sensitivity setting ingame. Negative accel? What would be sensible for 16.5cm (6.5 inches) / 360.

And what sensitivity-values is most "safe" to use ingame? How low/high (in q3 for example).

<< Comment #372 @ 22:18 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (89.160.12.5)

Oh my this review was utterly fantastic...
I guess I'm happy I have a couple of MX500 in the closet collecting dust :-)

Please keep up the great work!

Most sincerely
/Dave

<< Comment #530 @ 17:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Rhoc - Reply to #372

Same here except instead of mx500s I have mx300s

<< Comment #380 @ 23:25 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dsl-hkibras-fe3ff900-179.dhcp.inet.fi)

Logitech MX300 "400 DPI"

Logitech MX300/310/500/510 have 800 DPI after installing MouseWare drivers, and 400 DPI if you don't install them.

<< Comment #381 @ 23:26 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #380

Did install mouseware and followed all the steps, but it remained at 400 DPI. Could just be my mistake (it was a lot of mice to test) so I will go through it again with the Logitech guy I've been speaking with.

<< Comment #384 @ 23:39 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #381

You could be right, you know.

<< Comment #395 @ 00:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Jimb0b - Reply to #380

You need to install that advanced mouseware utility from logitech.
Setting it to either speed or precision sets the mouse to 400 or 800 dpi afaik.

<< Comment #436 @ 06:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Twist` - Reply to #395

True

<< Comment #399 @ 00:34 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mnz! - Reply to #380

is there any way to get to know your dpi out of windows? or with the help of a little programm maybe?

<< Comment #376 @ 22:59 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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flu1d

This is a bit irrelevant to the article; but it would be nice to have a small database/table of what gamers' sensitivities (in cm/360) are, and what games they play.

<< Comment #455 @ 11:04 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #376

Here is a list of sensitivity settings of top cs and css players compiled by rich from #team.devastation: www.zlam.dk/z0uless/sens.txt

If you want cm/360. You can compare to my sens: 38cm/360

<< Comment #536 @ 20:00 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #455

How the hell are we supposed to compare those figures? Either use cm/360° or do not bother at all since it is useless

<< Comment #553 @ 22:19 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #536

well thats all I got SORRY! besides, its simple math.

<< Comment #566 @ 22:58 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #553

Simple math?

How on earth am I (without cs) supposed to get the cm/360° from that data? Please give me the formula and maybe explain it a bit so I the math noob might understand

<< Comment #571 @ 23:22 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #566

I gave you my cm/360, my name is on that list

<< Comment #573 @ 23:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #571

dude...I meant from the other players

<< Comment #379 @ 23:21 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0

I assume you are not using the drivers logitech has for the mx300 if you are only getting 400 dpi. this mouse unlike the mx518 does default to 400 dpi, the mx518 gives you 800 without any drivers. you need drivers version 9.79 mw9791enu.exe from logitechs site. you can't just use another logitech mouse driver for this mouse I dont believe. Running the mouse with no driver gives you 400 dpi but with the driver it ups it to 800.

Edited by CR0C0 at 23:23 UTC, 11 December 2006

<< Comment #382 @ 23:27 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #379

I did all the sensible steps to make it work. It could quite possibly be a driver problem because of the constant installing/uninstalling of different versions of different bits of software. I'll have to try it on a completely clean install of Windows.

<< Comment #383 @ 23:38 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #382

ok well i can tell you as i have three of these mice and used it for quite some time it works as its supposed to! im not sure how you measured 400 dpi, but when you plug in the mouse fresh with no drivers, then install the drivers, the mouse moves twice as far with the drivers installed than with no drivers, that is because its going from 400 to 800 with the drivers, at least I think so and its very much smoother with the drivers. it does default to 400 dpi though, unlike the 518 which works with 800 dpi even with no drivers from what I can tell.

<< Comment #385 @ 23:45 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #383

It could just be a software hack to get the sensor to work at "800"dpi ?

<< Comment #388 @ 23:58 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #385

I dont know but it seems to work. I had one of these mice and it still works but the feet wore off. Then when they got discontinued overstock.com had a sale on them and I picked up two brand new ones for 15$ apiece. I kinda wish I had bought more now because you cant find them anywhere. I can still get new feet for the old one though and these two brand new ones I have teflon tape protecting the feet so hopefully theyll last me for years to come. Now logitech makes a laser mouse with the same shape but obviously laser mice are inferior to optical . The mx310 that replaced it is the worst mouse ever. every time you move it down the back of the mouse literally runs over the skin on your palm bringing the mouse to a dead stop. apparently logitech released this one without ever holding it in their hands....

Edited by CR0C0 at 00:01 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #390 @ 00:01 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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zealot - Reply to #388

How did you know it actually worked at 800dpi? The supposed reg hack I saw simply doubled the sens on the x and y axis...

<< Comment #393 @ 00:16 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #385

Whether or not it's a hack, it wasn't working for me!

<< Comment #397 @ 00:30 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #393

The reason I get that impression is. When you use for example, the Razer DB without drivers it works at 1600 DPI therefore my conclusion is for a mouse to require drivers to function at the DPI of the sensor it must be software hacked or something :/

<< Comment #401 @ 00:34 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #397

Well none of the current gamers mice work at the max dpi without drivers installed. So Im not sure what youre trying to get at.
the mx518 only works at 1600 dpi with drivers and you have to go into game point settings to enable it.

<< Comment #402 @ 00:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #401

You sure?

My DB worked without drivers at the highest dpi. How could you tell it wasn't using the max dpi on the 518 ? maybe the drivers set the dpi to 800 by default instead?

If a sensor is meant to run at 1600 dpi then by my logic it runs at that dpi with drivers or not surely?

Like sujoy pointed out in the review the new mice are high DPI sensors that scale the motion down or whatever rather than actually switching to lower dpi settings.

<< Comment #422 @ 02:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #402

Im quite sure after testing whther I could remove the drivers or not without messing up my ingame sensitivity. I set the drivers of the 518 to 800 dpi, set up my ingame sensitivity , measured the distance of a 360 with a tape measure, removed the drivers and rebooted with no drivers, and the ingame sensitivity was the same, 800 DPI is what the mouse runs at without drivers. Now the mx300 doesnt have a dpi indicator like the mx518 but removing the 518 and putting in the 300
caused the distance for a full 360 to double, 400 DPI, and installing the drivers causing it to half again 800. and the razer copperhead doesnt work at 2000 DPI without the drivers and neither do the g5 g7 series mice, as ive owned all of these. Neither does the mx1000 Ive had that one too. without drivers changing the sensitivity in mouse options causes the movement per inch to go up but causes skipping, it merely treats one count as two so it skips a whole inbetween pixel, and you can see that with your eye. Installing the drivers causes the sensitivity to double without causing that pixel skipping , its not multiplying the x and y count by two, its actually more accurate by a factor of two.

Edited by CR0C0 at 02:57 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #424 @ 03:37 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #422

Oh yes and it was said at the time that the mx 500 and 300 came out that they both have the exact same hardware, just the 500 has more buttons and a different shape, so I see no reason to think the 500 passed his 800 dpi test and the 300 didnt and if you look at his graphs theyre identical for both the 500 and 300, same performance, same hardware.
I dont think not having extra buttons is a good reason to knock points off a mouse but I think having sensitivity buttons is a good reason to knock points off the mouse. like the mx518 if you happen to hit one of these buttons while playing you are DEAD and basically incapable of playing further until you figure out what the hell happened to mess up your aim. that should be another plus for the mx300 since it doesnt have these buttons! =D

<< Comment #479 @ 13:05 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #422

That just means they are being set in the firmware to "800" or "1600" dpi if you ask me. Ok I'm not an expert though so let's see what happens :P

<< Comment #462 @ 11:46 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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zealot - Reply to #401

Well none of the current gamers mice work at the max dpi without drivers installed.
I am pretty sure you can not actually change the dpi of the hardware with any kind of software but will always only be able to do some kind of 'scaling'. Also I'm rather sure you as a person have no ability to test the dpi? Ingame sensitivity means little in that regard.

edit: That probably wasn't what you meant though :) But I also doubt any mouse runs at anything less than their maximum dpi/scaling without drivers. I know people claim all sorts of things but my G3 for example definitely ran at 2000dpi without a driver although logitech claims it shouldn't work at all.

Edited by zealot at 11:50 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #471 @ 12:30 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #401

The 1600 and 2000 dpi mice didn't need drivers for their top dpi. The only one that seems to need drivers are the mx300/mx500.

<< Comment #642 @ 18:30 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Zanno - Reply to #471

yeah, i can definitely confirm that

plugging a diamondback into a computer without its drivers causes you to move all the way across a screen at 1280x1024 in about 2 cm

<< Comment #443 @ 08:57 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #379

not 100% sure on this, but from personal experience, the mouse tracking speed was hindered by the drivers.

<< Comment #386 @ 23:47 UTC, 11 December 2006 >>

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Sens

Nice one sujoy.
Obviously a well thought out plan to obtain free mice and mouse pads from companies!
Why didn't I think of that :(

Looks like when my G5 dies I won't be returning to IE3.0, mx looks good.

<< Comment #392 @ 00:15 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #386

They take up so much space tbh, and that's only 17. I have no clue how I'm gonna store 100 or so mice when I do a fuller test next time!

<< Comment #446 @ 10:12 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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melachi ' - Reply to #392

You can store them in the booth of my car friend.

<< Comment #396 @ 00:23 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mnz!

i just tried to overclock my usb-port with this "usbmrs11" and i get this message:

ERROR: Could not find a valid sequence!
Please use Windows' original "usbport.sys"!

although i never touched mousedrivers or usb-ports before.
what to do now? :\
how did sujoy overclock? mouserate says it's currently at 125hz.
i'm on XP SP2

Edited by mnz! at 00:44 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #400 @ 00:34 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

SwantanamoJ

I love mine but the skates are pretty worn out.

<< Comment #408 @ 01:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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hl3395

Very nice review.
I dont know if anyone has suggested this in the other comments (there's so many lol), but how about these for acceleration test.

Circle Test:
You can have 2x 5cm circles attached to a rectangular surface. The mouse is held stationary at the center of the surface. As the 2 circles turn, your surface creates a circle, mimicking a circular motion.

Abrupt Direction Change:
A piston like setup where a circular motion gives a horizontal movement.

Maybe a counter weight system as well, so you can crank the speeds way up and not run into vibration trouble =D

Here's a nice pic of what I'm talking about =P

image

4%

<< Comment #451 @ 10:49 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #408

That's a really nice way to set it up.

My original thought was to leave the mousemat on a solid surface, and have a machine set up that moves the mouse in circles. I can see it will be tricky to set it up perfectly, and it needs to be perfect because if the mouse lifts up the results will go wrong.

The piston set-up you drew is way better.

<< Comment #592 @ 05:58 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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hl3395 - Reply to #451

It woulb be awesome if you used my ideas. Maybe you can also draw circles at high speeds to test movement accuracy. Like having MSpaint open and a macro that moves the cursor to some point on the screen and holds the left mouse button down for a certain period of time once you crank the rig up to a certain speed.
If the mouse is really nice, then it should draw a perfect circle.

<< Comment #409 @ 01:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Silent Bob

Wow! Is this ironic or what?
I've been impatiently waiting for Sujoy's article to come out, so I could decide on a mouse to substitute my 4 year old MX500, only to find out such mouse is a ...MX500. Needless to say I've already got a brand new one coming my way.
My MX500 is so (ab)used and beat up I wonder how it still works at all, funnily enough I never had any problem with the USB cord.
The only mouse I've ever used that can outperform the MX500 is the Razer DB Plasma, the responsiveness of the Razer buttons is simply awesome and the lightweight was also perfect for me... unfortunately it gave me hand cramps after 30 minutes of play.
So I sold it and returned to my trusty old MX500 :)
I've also used WMO, G5 and Copperhead, all of which were pure garbage.
The perfect mouse for me would be:
- MX5XX shape
- Razer buttons
- Lightweight
- MX500 hardware

The Razer DeathAdder also falls near my preferences, so I'll keep an eye on Sujoy's take on that one too.

btw, GREAT job Sujoy! Keep up with the good work :)

ps: my first post here :D

5%

<< Comment #410 @ 01:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Tomato

Im curious about overclocking my mx500 as well. I did it once before ages ago, and I didnt really see a difference. Ive built several PC's since then still using the same ol`mx500.. any links to this overclocking utility? :D

<< Comment #411 @ 01:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (S01060016b6e674af.ed.shawcable.net)

Great comparison of sensor performance! Doesn't have much effect on me because I'm one of those uber-high sensitivity gamers, but it was refreshing to see such a scientific approach taken to a mouse review.

I have a few suggestions for mice to test when you decide you want to expand your database. Hopefully you can get a hold of them from the manufacturers!

Logitech G7 - It would be interesting to see what effect, if any the wireless connection has on objective performance.

Razer Diamondback Plasma LE -This mouse has an infrared sensor, like the upcoming Deathadder, and it would be really interesting to know how it fares.

Razer Viper - The first optical mouse to hit 1000 CPI! You'd be testing a piece of history.

I can't wait to see your mouse pad comparison! Will you test for things like the coefficient of friction as well as factors like tracking?

<< Comment #427 @ 05:32 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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He-Man - Reply to #411

Note the Razer Krait also uses the infrared sensor (as does the white Razer "Pro" mouse).

I have both the standard Diamondback and the DB Plasma and greatly prefer the latter to the standard. I actually prefer the "feel" of the DB Plasma to any other mouse, though right now I'm using the 3.0 for comfort.

The Death Adder (supposedly) has an upgraded version of the infrared engine and will allow 1000hz through the drivers. Coupled with the 3.0 shape, unless they completely botch the thing, it should be nearly perfect IMO.

<< Comment #480 @ 13:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #427

Isn't it 1800dpi? and has an LED style "cut off" when you lift it?

<< Comment #574 @ 23:37 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

He-Man - Reply to #480

ya its 1800dpi, and they do have some cut off thing for low sens players so when you lift it to move it, the mouse will not jerk or skip up reading off of the pad while in mid air. i'm anxious to see how well it works.

<< Comment #579 @ 01:36 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #574

Cut Off Thing™

5%

<< Comment #412 @ 01:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (cpe-066-057-229-244.nc.res.rr.com)

Amazing article overall, great rigor and procedure. I had one question, though - the speed of the motion and the DPI of the sensor were sort of treated "independently", even in the final charts.. seems a bit odd, considering that moving a 400DPI mouse at 2m/s and moving a 1600DPI mouse at 2m/s will have vastly different in-game results.

Since ultimately what matters is how much your view angle changes in game, I'd think a combined index of (Perfect Control * DPI) would represent the actual 'performance threshold' of the mouse, no? That would work out in 'dots per second' assuming Perfect Control was in Inches per Second, which is the real value we need to be looking at... specially for high-sensitivity gamers.

Actually, on further thought - dots/sec itself isn't enough, since you still want to be able to flick it about as fast as you can - particularly if you're a low-sensitivity type. I think Perfect Control needs to be measured as a guarantee that the mouse will handle your speed, but given two mice that both satisfy your personal needs in the Control department, the one with the higher dpi should get the nod, as it will have greater *precision* within that envelope.

Any thoughts?

-Valarauka

<< Comment #420 @ 02:24 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-69-255-159-202.hsd1.md.comcast.net)

Great article!

Anyone else get acceleration in XP with an MX500 at 500hz? It feels so smooth, but there's definite accel going on. I have the CPL mousefix installed.

-Ben

<< Comment #531 @ 17:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-69-255-159-202.hsd1.md.comcast.net) - Reply to #420

Hm, well can someone confirm that their MX500 works perfectly at 500hz?

I have 2 MX500s, one with a cord from a dual optical, and they both have this problem (with mouseware drivers, but not software, installed).

It's not normal mouse acceleration; it only has accel up to a certain speed. Looking at the current rate in dx_mouse_timer_dialog or Raziel's UsbRate tool, if I'm not moving it fast enough for it to operate at the full 500ish hz, it acts like it has accel. I hope that makes sense.

I'd really appreciate it if someone can help me get to the bottom of this.

-Ben

<< Comment #542 @ 21:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (c-69-255-159-202.hsd1.md.comcast.net) - Reply to #531

Well, for anyone who might have the same problem, I changed HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LMouFlt2\Parameters\OpticalMouse12\0000\Resolution from 8 to 4 (and rebooted) and the acceleration disappeared.

Regardless of whether the MX500 supports 800dpi, that setting has a definite effect (beyond just doubling sensitivity).

-Ben

<< Comment #414 @ 02:09 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Corpsegrinder

518 = win win

<< Comment #417 @ 02:17 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

eMbAh '

don't you like the mx300 shape over the mx500 shape? what are you even using the buttons for?

<< Comment #456 @ 11:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #417

www.zlam.dk/cfg/z0uLess.cfg

<< Comment #486 @ 13:22 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #456

lol, how long did you spend putting the pretty pictures into that? :P

<< Comment #489 @ 13:26 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #486

hahahaeh. it's a secret

edit: according to xfire, I have played a total of 2808 hours counter-strike:source ... so, hm. Multiply with two and you get the time I used to make that config.

Edited by z0uLess at 13:29 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #421 @ 02:42 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

_agu

518 and ms 3.0 > all

<< Comment #423 @ 03:25 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

cumrag

the scores should just be based on perfect control or maybe perfect control and resolution, weighted towards perfect control. the buttons thing seems a bit subjective since some people such as myself don't really use side buttons since it affects my aim in the heat of battle, so to speak. a mouse isn't reliable once it hits the 'malfunction' limit, i think...

but it's the best review i've ever read.

Edited by nigra at 23:29 UTC, 28 October 2007

<< Comment #428 @ 05:36 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

bett96

An exquisite benchmark.... Thank you.

<< Comment #429 @ 05:36 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (ip-58-28-150-159.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)

u sure the ms 3.0 was the new one coz i heard it tracks better than the 518 -_- and only the old one has the same engine as the WMO

<< Comment #458 @ 11:13 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #429

the old and the new is exactly the same.

<< Comment #472 @ 12:33 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #458

stop writing crap pls.

<< Comment #475 @ 12:48 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #472

Please hand me some proof that it's any different, other than color and fancy packaging.

<< Comment #491 @ 13:38 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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wipeout - Reply to #475

The old one had a different sensor (lower fps). The new one has the WMO sensor.

<< Comment #494 @ 13:47 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #491

okay I didnt know. But the performance is exactly the same, right? I have both the new and the old.

<< Comment #468 @ 12:20 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #429

Definitely a new one.

<< Comment #425 @ 04:36 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

thelawenforcer

interesting to see that the 2020 is infact the best performing laser mouse out there.

<< Comment #575 @ 23:38 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

He-Man - Reply to #425

i have the 2020 (was given to me) and it skips worse than any mouse i've ever owned. its just awful. i hope for creative/fatal1ty's sake i have a bad one.

<< Comment #578 @ 01:36 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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thelawenforcer - Reply to #575

depends at what sensitivity's u use it, as sujoy's article points out *i think*

<< Comment #599 @ 07:44 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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He-Man - Reply to #578

ya i tried all sens, and all dpi, but even in windows, if i flicked fast across my mousepad (tried multiple pads, including the qck, razer mantis and razer exactmat) it would just stop, like it couldn't keep up w/a simple wrist flick. =(
i actually loved the shape/feel of the mouse tho

<< Comment #426 @ 05:09 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

SoAndChobe

i have checked and rechecked but i cant find any info about how the G5 performs when OC'd. Does OC'ing the Hz increase its performance?

<< Comment #457 @ 11:12 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #426

OC Hz only seem to help on the old 8-bit datapath technology. Reason he did not write about Hz on g5 is probably because changeing it had no effect.

<< Comment #467 @ 12:19 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #457

That's right. With the new mice that have > 8-bit data path there is no difference in response with overclocking.

<< Comment #493 @ 13:43 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

wipeout - Reply to #467

You OC'ed a G5? How did you do that? Thought it only allows up to 500Hz (which is the default, right?). And since it uses USB 2.0, patching the Windows system file shouldn't have any effect?

<< Comment #495 @ 13:50 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #493

Only OC'ed the mice that were at 125Hz by default.

Although I found that if you don't install SetPoint you can run the G5 at different rates with a USB tool.

<< Comment #503 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #493

I was waiting for your reply :D
-over

<< Comment #430 @ 05:38 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

kingcrimson

Quite a breakthrough sujoy ..
hope you patent and copywright this stuff =)

<< Comment #431 @ 05:51 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Jazzy

ty for the article as i am getting a new mouse asap (this was decided a month ago :p ) and i have been rattling my brain as which one to get for a while. i have a G5 but its best before date is long gone. wheel is borked, side button is equally cruddy and its just annoying me in general.

Im still wanting the rereleased IE3 after reading this and am gonna overclock the USB (which is something i have no idea how to do, so if anyone wants to give some friendly advice id be very happy :)
i just dont want to buy from logitech again (which is a shame cos i recieve 30% discounts ^^ ), but im completely turned off them by how badly my G5 fell apart :/

<< Comment #454 @ 10:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #431

There is a program here, but I can't take responsibility if it burns down your house and steals your cookies.

http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/hidusbf.zip

<< Comment #459 @ 11:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #454

i installed this and it is by far the best mouse overclocker, requires no more reboots once its setup. =D

<< Comment #470 @ 12:21 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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hkrep - Reply to #454

grats sujoy, you even made tweakers.net, the nr 1 tech news site of the netherlands.

http://tweakers.net/nieuws/45543/Zeventien-mu...mtest.html

<< Comment #432 @ 05:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

ensiferum2k

wtf is mez using to hold his mousecord up?

<< Comment #433 @ 06:25 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Gravgon

I would like to see the Logitech Mouseman Dual Optical tested. I thought it was a great mouse.

<< Comment #434 @ 06:48 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Corrupted - Reply to #433

Worst mouse I have ever touched in my life. :-[

<< Comment #880 @ 07:27 UTC, 22 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (cpe-24-193-148-183.nyc.res.rr.com) - Reply to #433

The mouse skips at medium speeds. This is coming from personal experience.

<< Comment #437 @ 06:59 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

lettu

I think something worth mentioning, is the pixel skipping issue Diamondback has.
It skips a single pixel when changing directions.
Diamondback Plasma doesnt have this issue, if i remember correctly.

<< Comment #438 @ 06:59 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (adsl-75-5-4-113.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)

Thank You Sujoy for the awesome article! I look forward to your future articles. I would like to suggest asking the guys at Ulti-mat for a sample of their famous steel teflon-coated mouse pads to use in your mouse pad tests. I bet they will be an interesting addition to your findings, not to mention those guys at Ulti-mat will be very interested in your revolutionary testing methodology. Thanks again and good hunting!

<< Comment #439 @ 06:59 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (cpe-72-226-238-105.rochester.res.rr.com)

Too many useless comments!!!!! Argh, thanks guys..

After reading, here's my comment ok..

For both of my computers, I've had the original Intellimouse Explorers--the first optical mouse ever, the second revision (3.0), MX700, MX510, MX1000, and now a G5 and a G7.

The first one had HORRIBLE acceleration and speed problems. Even with a regular-sized mousepad, if I quickly did a 180 or 360 turn, I'd end up looking either straight up or down. It also did only 400dpi. Overclocking the PS/2 rate to 200Hz helped but did not get rid of the horrible problems.

The second one (rev. 3.0) was more precise, could move faster with more acceleration. But it still had acceleration/speed problems and the small back/forward buttons on the side kept on breaking.

The MX700 was soooo much better with at least 99% of the problems gone. But it introduced a little lag--a response time of probably around 40ms or so, due to the fact that it was wireless.

So for my serious gaming computer, I got an MX510 and stuck to that for a while. I do not think I have ever experienced twitching problems with this one, period.

The first laser mouse, the MX1000, caught my attention. I got it the first day it came out, but just could not tolerate it. It was the activation delay that was un-heard of! Whenever I took the mouse off the pad to reposition myself, and then placed it back on it took like 1/4 of a second for it to start working again! If you have one, you can see it if you quickly moved the mouse a little bit, picked it up and placed it back down to move it again a little bit---repeated as quickly as possbile. The cursor will actually stop moving! It was a big problem, a big flaw..

The G7 and G5 were acquired when released. I'd say that they are the most accurate mouse ever experienced, especially due to 2000 dpi and 500Hz USB rate out of the box. I have not yet tried 1000 Hz, but would like to know if it makes a difference. Anyway, the G7 still has a little wireless lag that hurts its responsiveness. It's probably a little less lag than the MX700 but I couldn't compare both because the MX700 was sold a while ago. The reason why I said "a little less" is because the lag is harder to notice with this G7, but still there nonetheless.

I hated the fact that those G5's and G7's had only one side button but the tilt wheel made up for it since it brought two buttons that I could program in the software. Ok, about the G5.. .the 2000dpi is always selected. If it moves too fast, I just turn down the pointer speed in the software while leaving the acceleration on "low". I still hardly ever experience any twitching problems, as I use a normally-sized mouse pad without having to fling my mouse at insane speeds all across the desk. Although there are no acceleration problems it seems, when I tested it after reading this original review, I saw that it really did have twitching problems when I moved it AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Fact is, it was almost completely impossible to do. Plus I do not move that fast in games or else I'd bash into my keyboard or completely lose control of my own hand accuracy. At 2000dpi, it's precise, and at 500Hz, it's pretty much responsive enough with complete smoothness even if the game is running at up to 500fps--the mouse definitely does not need any "mouse smoothing"--an optional feature offered in some games.

At least this awesome review has brought into light that the G5 cannot move across the desk as fast as many optical mice while retaining efficiency. Faster is always better, I guess.

-Bo_Fox

<< Comment #435 @ 06:53 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

quadV|Jay

Sujoy is the man, I am bookmarking this for further reference, nice technical study. Sujoy ever thought about finding yourself a hetro life partner?

<< Comment #440 @ 07:20 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (cpe-72-226-238-105.rochester.res.rr.com)

Ahhh! I recently tested my G5 after turning down the DPI setting all the way to the lowest setting -- 400dpi, with pointer speed also set to low in the software. If I move it fast enough--like when doing a very quick 180 turn that I sometimes do in games, the pointer will twitch and start moving vertically instead of horizontally. It's bad. Now I see.. definitely not for low-sensitivity players. Thanks again for the great test/review. I'll use ESREALITY.COM's next review before buying the next mouse, in hopes that it will be faster than this G5.

Note: at 2000 dpi, I never really needed to move it fast enough to mess it up. My desk is just too small for an oversized pad to allow me to become a low-sensitivity shooter, so I'm fine with my G5, I guess.. blah!

-Bo_Fox

<< Comment #445 @ 09:44 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (mail.gbg.fhsk.se)

Fantastic stuff ^^. Very informative and well presented, though it hurts me to realize I fell for the whole laser thingie hook line and sinker.
I could have sworn my new G5 was superior to my old mx518 but I suppose the power of suggestion can't be underestimated.
Thanx again for a great article and now if you'll excuse me I'm off to repo my old mx518 from my wife.

<< Comment #551 @ 22:14 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (174.Red-217-126-7.staticIP.rima-tde.net) - Reply to #445

Yup, same happened to me UNTIL I tested both mice with same USB poll rate (at 500Hz). Then I happened to like the Mx518 more than the G5, went smoother and didn't skip (for some reason I would swear that the G5 skips some when changing direction or making very slow movements on high/med sensitivity), so I enjoyed the Mx518 over the G5 and had to eat my thoughts up :]

<< Comment #444 @ 09:11 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

nthexwn

Awesome! Now I can link all my friends to this article when they ask me why I bought an MX518 instead of a G5 ;)

<< Comment #449 @ 10:15 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

melachi ' - Reply to #444

just wear black lipstick and tell them you're no damn pussy conformist.

<< Comment #447 @ 10:15 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (ns.emirom.ro)

I think this is the first real scientific measurement of mouse quality. Congrats !!! Please continue your review with other models

<< Comment #448 @ 10:15 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (81-226-242-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)

Nice test, it's nice to get some things scientifically proved and real mesurments of them. Keep up the good work, I'm really looking forward to the mousepad test since I've noticed big changes in performance depending on the surface a mouse reads on. Seems like the mousepad you used for this test is good enough though.

I ocasionally make my Diamondback reach Malfunction Speed, but then it's not on an optimal surface. Oh, and make sure to test how high above the surface the sensor can be and still get a good read.

Again, keep up the good work

/ Boosta-Qpo from #boostaboys @ q-net

<< Comment #460 @ 11:20 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess

I used mx518 up to recently, when mouse1 button broke after 10 mounths of use. So I had to go back to what I had used previously, the mx510. I'm a mid-low sens player (0.38m for 360 degrees).

I must say I am suprised to see the performance of mx500 @ 1000Hz. I might pick up my old mx500. I threw it away because of negative accel back when mx510 was released. I would need to know the exact setup (drivers, mwadvanced, cpl mousefix and what tool used to oc Hz).

I am thinking of getting a new mx518. Maby I'll buy two, just so I know that I can still play with it for years to come. Would like to see some comparison between mx510 and mx518 tho. I cant say I noticed any difference when I changed from 518 to 510.

<< Comment #469 @ 12:21 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #460

MX518 is probably the best bet since you already know the shape. Sensor performance is one thing, but you have to assume that Logitech have improved the electronics, buttons and other things since the MX500. 1600 dpi might be more useful in the future aswell.

<< Comment #476 @ 12:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #469

I've tried out msie 3.0 and I must say it feels alot better for wrist play (cs). Not only because of the shape, but also by how the optical sensor is positioned. I've been using mx5xx for years and it kinda grew on me. After playing with mx510 and mx518, I can't get used to the negative accel on msie 3.0.

<< Comment #481 @ 13:14 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #476

Try setting the clock speed to 250Hz and it should help stop a lot of negative acceleration.

<< Comment #485 @ 13:22 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #481

Alot but not all. I've gotten comments on lan before about how fast I move the mouse, so I doubt I will ever be able to use msie 3.0.

<< Comment #504 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #469

http://www.xfire.be/?x=column&mode=item&id=112

Plz explain to me why we need more DPI as most people are still playing in between r_mode 4 and r_mode 8?

<< Comment #517 @ 16:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #504

that article is theoretical at best.

<< Comment #557 @ 22:44 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #504

The jump to the conclusion seems to be a big one. I don't get it. I'm quite tired right now so I'll try reading it tomorrow.

<< Comment #586 @ 03:04 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (d154-5-186-216.bchsia.telus.net) - Reply to #504

What that article entirely fails to take into account is the effect DPI of a mouse has on minimum distance to detect movement.

Look at it this way: If you have a 400DPI mouse, that means that, if your sensitivity is set ingame such that there is no pixel skipping (your game will move one pixel for every dot moved by your mouse) then that means that you will only be able to rotate your display 400 pixels for every inch you move your mouse. This implies that, using sujoy's numbers of approximately 4096 pixels for a single rotation, the lowest non-pixel-skipping inch/360 you can set would be 10 inches. What this means is that with a 1024x768 resolution and a 400DPI mouse, if you set your sensitivity such that you have an inch/360 LOWER than 10in/360, your game will be skipping pixels and you are losing precision.

Now, for me, it is not uncommon that I will play a game (and run my desktop) at 1600x1200, and I generally use an in/360 of less than one inch (yes, I move my mouse less than one inch to the side to complete a full rotation). In some deathmatch games I actually have it in the 1cm-2cm per 360 region (my desktop is about a cm and a half to cross the screen). For me, then, if I hypothetically had a 400dpi mouse and was using a conservative 1in/360, I would be jumping an absolutely unplayable 16 pixels per "dot" the mouse moves ingame, and I would be jumping at least 4 pixels/dot on my desktop.

And before any of you call me crazy and tell me I must be a total n00b for playing with such an insane sensitivty setting, look at it this way - when I play my games (or just use my desktop) I do not need to move my hand at all to play - I merely make use of finger and wrist movements. This way, I'm relying only on my much more precise wrist and finger muscle groups, while keeping my hand anchored to the desk, rather than leaving it up to the large muscle groups in my arm to keep things under control. I don't need to move my hand/arm nearly as fast, and I really reduce mouse strain due to the vastly reduced arm movement. I know a couple of my friends who play this way too, and we're all fairly competitive FPSers.

I used to play with a much lower sensitivity (5-10in/360 or something), and when I switched to the way I play now my aim improved dramatically.

PS: I am using a Logitech G5 mouse and always running it at 2000dpi, and it works beautifully. It's a vast improvement over the 800dpi logitech and the 400dpi logitech mice I used before it.

<< Comment #624 @ 13:25 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #586

Thanks for the reply. I totaly agree on all you explained :P

Comming from a Wolfenstein background it is sometimes hard for me to understand people can play at such high sensitivities :P Even if i play quake sensitivity 5 seems uberhigh. But again thanks for the explenation, although I think the article still remains it value for the community it was written for.

<< Comment #978 @ 06:54 UTC, 20 December 2008 >>

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Anonymous (cpe-72-179-47-209.austin.res.rr.com) - Reply to #586

Alas, that's not how all games seem to work, though.

<< Comment #461 @ 11:43 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Cain

So mew, the mx300 you are usually comfy with......did you juice it or were you using it at it's factory specs?

<< Comment #605 @ 08:50 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #461

default windows xp drivers and a 500hz USB.
also, i took out the weight from inside to make it lighter.

Edited by mew at 09:01 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #465 @ 12:06 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

evil_ichi

really nice work sujoy!

would it be possible to test some old ball mouses to compare?

should work fine with your testing environment...

<< Comment #473 @ 12:37 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dslb-082-083-223-115.pools.arcor-ip.net) - Reply to #465

Send him one evil_ichi !

Edited by Sujoy at 13:15 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #483 @ 13:16 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #465

I don't actually have any ball mice (they all go thrown out!).

I am going to try and find an old MS Intellimouse as they used to be pretty good.

<< Comment #498 @ 14:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #483

I still use the ball mouse you endorsed (the razer boomslang 2000 for those who don't know), yes it still works surprisingly well, except for the having to clean it part :(. I even still have the box around somewhere with your endorsement on the side :) . I think it was you, Hakeem, Fatality and xenon. I can't remember exactly now.... Oh that reminds me, where is that spoof image someone did of the quotes you guys gave, I have a gif around somewhere....

<< Comment #511 @ 15:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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hemostick - Reply to #498

I just messed about with my old boxes yesterday and those are indeed the players endorsing it. :) Didn't know which box to throw away though : the one with a CPL endorsment printed at the back, or the one with a "money back guarantee" printed in the same place ? I kept both.

<< Comment #466 @ 12:06 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (85-234-150-249.static.poundhost.com)

great post sujoy, i\'ve been experimenting with much mouses to and i am know using the G5. Felt like it didnt really did much extra in comparising with the MX500 and know i know why!

<< Comment #463 @ 11:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Nukm

just read this in a new article on gotfrag hardware:
"Even though I managed to get some pretty ludicrous kills thanks to the technology inside the mouse,"
seriously, this is just stupid.... so thx sujoy for such an objective review

<< Comment #464 @ 11:59 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

McFly

God-like article, Sujoy, very nice.

Btw, I haven't read all the other 466 comments, but if nobody has mentioned it yet, many motherboards will not do 1000Hz on the USB.
This is entirely a mobo issue, not mouse related.

I've had 4 mobos this year, and none of them could get past 450Hz with the MX500/310/300/510/G1.

Just to let people know that not everyone will be able to get their MX series mouse to do 1000Hz.

Edited by McFly at 12:00 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #474 @ 12:37 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #464

you always stated the mx518 to be better than the mx500 regarding negative accel. shame on you :<

<< Comment #477 @ 12:58 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #474

it is. "out of the box" atleast.

<< Comment #478 @ 13:03 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #474

Of course it is better.
Show me proof that *you* are able to run an mx500/300/310 @ 1000Hz :)

<< Comment #609 @ 09:06 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #478

i always used my mx300 @ 500hz. like since january 2003,
but mx310, mx510 and G1 could only get 450hz.

as you can see from the end results, mx300/mx500 sensor is superior when it comes to overclocking. :)

<< Comment #611 @ 09:52 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #609

I can't get any of them over 450hz :(

<< Comment #617 @ 10:51 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #611

but you can get Razors to 500? indeed weird...

<< Comment #664 @ 02:02 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #617

MX518 also does 500, np
Same with some M$ mice.

Maybe the problem is that Logitech has made several versions of their MX500/300. That would explain a lot.

I know that they did this with the 310.
I have a couple that skip right away at higher speeds.
Whilst the other 310s I have never skip (just negative acc.)

<< Comment #482 @ 13:15 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #464

1000 Hz was probably overkill. 500Hz is enough to cure the buffer problem on the MX500, and even 250Hz would get rid of most of it.

<< Comment #488 @ 13:25 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #482

You were actually able to do 500Hz straight?

I've never seen anyone do more than 450Hz, stably.

<< Comment #492 @ 13:40 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #488

Hard to remember now, but I'll check again when I get home.

<< Comment #499 @ 14:10 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #492

Cool, thanks.
If you are able to, maybe write a small guide on how ppl can do it? :)

<< Comment #505 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #488

12 bit datapath mice will get stuck on 450hz, but its stable at least. I noticed this problem with my mx510 and razer db. Dunno how this affects hz, i remember both my mx510 and db refusing to work @ 1000hz.

<< Comment #526 @ 17:21 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #505

That's odd. All my Razer mice do 500Hz no problem whatsoever.

Are you sure about the 12-bit data path thing, btw?
A lot of M$ mice, that are only 8-bit(?), do 500Hz just fine.

<< Comment #528 @ 17:31 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #526

WMO is 8bit 400dpi and it gets 1000hz stable here...

<< Comment #532 @ 17:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (d54C1DDFD.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #526

12 bit datapath = 450hz

and my db never did 500hz, always did 450. That was db plasma edition, before it died after working for 6 months. Ever since i'm buying razer i buy a new mouse every 6 months. Luckily razer keeps producing enough crappy mice for me to buy ever 6 months or so.

<< Comment #545 @ 21:30 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ashr - Reply to #532

my db plasma did 500hz stable. when i tried 1000hz it was stuck at 750. my WMO does both 500 and 1000 properly

<< Comment #643 @ 18:34 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Zanno - Reply to #532

rma it, razer mice come with a 2 year warranty

they sent me a brand new one in less than a week

<< Comment #558 @ 22:45 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #505

I don't see how the data path affects the polling rate. I don't know the tech myself so it's not obvious.

<< Comment #543 @ 21:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (84-104-2-73.cable.quicknet.nl) - Reply to #488

My mx500 can do 500hz, though not stable as on lower hz. No neg accel problem this way for me and I don't notice any drop in performance in any other aspect.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7798/mx500at500hzfa8.jpg

This is on a 4 year+ old NForce2 motherboard.

<< Comment #501 @ 14:39 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy - Reply to #464

Been waiting for your input here. ;)

<< Comment #490 @ 13:30 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

mindz

http://tweakers.net/nieuws/45543/Zeventien-mu...mtest.html

Cool Sujoy, ur article is getting worldwide attention :)

<< Comment #497 @ 13:59 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #490

Logitech must be loving this exposure, razer I don't think will be very happy with this :)

<< Comment #516 @ 16:18 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #497

Why? it shows that the Krait and Diamondback are nearly on par sensor wise.

The copperhead is slighty worse than the G5/G3 but both of those are just bad too.

The HABU is for the most part a Microsoft mouse with the copperhead laser stuck inside it.

<< Comment #548 @ 22:00 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #516

True, I guess I mean from the prospective of there 'flagship mice' ie the copperhead and habu. Deathadder may change all that thought, it will be interesting to see!

<< Comment #550 @ 22:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #548

I'm expecting Death Adder to be the same-to-slighty-better than the Krait.

<< Comment #580 @ 01:50 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #550

Up with the logitech's overclocked ?

<< Comment #582 @ 01:58 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #580

Doubt it but you never know

<< Comment #519 @ 16:52 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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hydra - Reply to #490

yea I submitted it ;) Had no idea it would generate THAT much pageviews though...

Edited by hydra at 16:53 UTC, 12 December 2006

5%

<< Comment #496 @ 13:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

mindz

the attached program to overclock your mouse is ok, but its not the easiest way.

the easiest way, imo, is via UsbRate.exe made by RaZiel.

I think you can find it via Google.

<< Comment #506 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #496

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1004774

Even better. Its on ESR

<< Comment #507 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

taken

Good work!

<< Comment #508 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Poekie

great article, copperhead is indeed the biggest scam in the mouseindustry (for lowsense gamers atleast), but you could have taken weight and size into account to bring that mx518 down too ;)

however to mousefuck you a littlebit:
"The mouse sensor actually sees the surface moving in a straight line, even though it is actually spinning."
This is false, for a infinitive small point on that circle it would be true, but since optical mice take pictures of small areas they do register a small change in direction.

<< Comment #560 @ 22:49 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #508

Yea I started trying to write that but I'm no journalist and it came out garbled. In the end I took it all out. I even had a little formula to work out how much distortion there was depending on the radius.

<< Comment #661 @ 01:30 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #560

This is very interesting, it all depends on how the optical sensor handles the "distortion" of the image it gets..What did you expect beforehand and what were the results, was the distortion negligible ?

Edited by crea* at 01:36 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #682 @ 12:31 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #661

It works out to be negligible on a 5mm or less sensor area.

<< Comment #692 @ 14:51 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #682

I guess that's alot compared to the image size an optical mouse sensor gets?!

<< Comment #693 @ 14:56 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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crea* - Reply to #661

Found the info here ->"optical flow".

<< Comment #502 @ 15:01 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Space Cowboy

LOL @ Gizmodo comments:

WCD_Thor says:

Fuck, I still like my G5 though, not buying anything else because of some review from a site I have personally never heard of. I used to have the duel optical, great mouse, G5, better mouse, I like the laser functionality.

Cetrian says:

Um, why do I not even see the G7 in this review? It's just as good at the G5, but wireless, and does not suffer from being so.

timh says:

Oh, Jesus. How is this not "unscientific"?

A (somewhat) scientific way to compare these mice follows:

Take 10 experienced gamers, have each of them practice with each mouse for 30 mins, then each play the same level of 3 or 4 preselected games. Make a performance index for each level completion appropriate to the game (time to finish, frags, etc) relative to the gamer's performance with their own mouse and average these out to a performance score per mouse per gamer. When every gamer has recorded a score for each mouse, put all the stats together, strip off the outliers for each mouse, and average the results up.

THEN put the bloody graph on the web.

Are these guys for real?

Edited by Space Cowboy at 15:03 UTC, 12 December 2006

10%

<< Comment #512 @ 15:12 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #502

Plussed for the last quote :D

<< Comment #513 @ 15:31 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mammon - Reply to #502

The last guy obviously never spawned @ PG

8%

<< Comment #514 @ 16:04 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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mindz - Reply to #513

hahaha rolf :))

<< Comment #518 @ 16:31 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #502

i've been reading comments about this sujoy's article at other websites as well... :)

<< Comment #529 @ 17:44 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Cataklysque - Reply to #518

Plusses are in order for all that find funny comments on other sites regarding this article.

<< Comment #559 @ 22:48 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #518

I've been reading some and biting my tongue.

I guess I should have made some things more obvious. Like I do realise that getting the best mouse is always a personal choice and not down to stats. I didn't realise you have to say something as obvious as that.

Also that last one about a scientific way to test mouse, loved it!

<< Comment #570 @ 23:09 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #559

I like the ones about the G7. The fact that he says "It's just the same as the G5 but wireless" is amazing. Clearly no thoughts are processed in that persons head.

<< Comment #523 @ 17:04 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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j4rno - Reply to #502

lol:)

<< Comment #547 @ 21:58 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #502

What a bunch of retards. FU lobster...

<< Comment #509 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (CPE-60-228-184-130.qld.bigpond.net.au)

good read,

I run a db razer @ 1000hz and so far i havent found a mouse that handles as good as the razer @ 1000hz, it beats the copperhead by far and i wonder now why razer released the copperhead having such a top mouse(db) allready on the market, ruins the razer name a bit,
further id like to add that if you dont know how to set up a mouse @ 1000hz you dont get value for your money, eg the copperhead sets itself to 1000hz but when i check this later in xp(mouserate) its not running at all @ 1000hz plus it jumps a lot, I really think this is a poor performance from razer or the usual MS bug, eitherway i asumed that by now this would be fixed and its still not...

therefore i swapped back to the db again asap and didnt even sell the copperhead, felt like i would rip off someone by doing so, so the copperhead went towards the bin, waste of money($120 AUD at the time when it was released)

I also think you should explain this article to microsoft cause they have much to learn about gaming and default settings, then again their xbox 360 ROCKS!

I got some test results of my db mouse if interrested and can contact me here: [email protected] (add to msn)

and yes for older games like eg cs 1.6 i turn it down to 400 dpi @ 125 hz and for eg cs:s i turn it up to 1000hz @ 1600 dpi and both games run smooth then, not only for me the speed that counts, also the smoothness(no jumps/flikkers etc) as i play with vsync on @ 100hz , the mouse needs to work hard in games like source, so far ive noticed that the db is one of the phew out there that runs @ proper hz when tested in eg mouserate, i found that many other mouse eg copperhead and mainly new ones.

Why do companies release a new mouse when its not as good as the older product? more testing and less marketing!

van Veen.

<< Comment #510 @ 15:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

dynodeath

Fanastic review Sujoy, really Logitech should be paying you!! :)

p3l3/Dyno

<< Comment #515 @ 16:08 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

neocr0n

Just picked up a new mx300 for £12 on ebay.

<< Comment #520 @ 16:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (h-209-109.A165.cust.bahnhof.se)

why didn't u test the mx 510 i wanted to see the difference between it and 518... to see if mice itg lower dpi are simply easier to make good for high speed

<< Comment #563 @ 22:52 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #520

Apologies for missing mice. I've had a lot of questions about mice that are not here. Unfortunately it's very hard to get that many mice, especially for a smaller site like this one! Now that this article is published I hope to use it to get the companies to send samples so that I can test more and put more results up.

<< Comment #521 @ 16:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (p54887519.dip.t-dialin.net)

very nice tests, inventive methods and well written, congrats Sujoy!
you lighted a few technical things up for me, which i hadnt really understood before.

i think though, that the linear calculations for the "final ranking score" are not really optimal (its pretty hard to do, and there is no really best solution, though), as they dont account for the deminishing of returns.

for example 1600dpi should be better than 800dpi, but not as much better than 800 is over 400. and at some point more dpi will become totally irrelevant (for a human player).

same with speed: as you said, probably no one will be able to take real advantage of 4m/s-mice over 2m/s, but your points say its double as good and the same advantage as 1m/s over 0.5m/s (which will be highly relevant for most).

a ranking including diminishing returns would favor mice with more balanced features over more specialized mice (for example mx518 would win and mx500 and mx300 would be scored lower), which i feel to be correct for an unspecialized (not hi/low-sens favored) overall ranking.

(sorry if this was pointed out before. thread was bit long to read it all)

GangRel

<< Comment #562 @ 22:51 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #521

I was thinking about the diminishing returns but the problem I had was choosing the 'ideal' value because it is dependent on other factors, noteably the top speed you personally move the mouse. In the end I went for a simple calculation for a very simple final score. I think it will need a lot of tweaking and working on to get it spot on.

<< Comment #522 @ 16:56 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (che78-3-82-246-28-108.fbx.proxad.net)

is 1000 hz well-managed on windows? or better use 500?

<< Comment #561 @ 22:49 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #522

I read something on this site infact saying 1000Hz had some problems in Windows, and that 500Hz was the best frequency to use.

<< Comment #635 @ 16:16 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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^wrz^ - Reply to #522

That totally depends on your mainboard. Some can handle it, some can't. The best idea is to get that overclocking app posted here somewhere - the one where you can limit the overclocking to the mouse. With all the other apps, that just overclocked every usb port I have, my PC instantly froze when setting it to 1000hz.

<< Comment #524 @ 17:07 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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doped

Nice article! GREAT job!!! really Great!
6 out of 5 stars :P

<< Comment #525 @ 17:09 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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_Unreal_

Sujoy, you may be interested in a testing method invented by A4tech: http://ut2004.on.ufanet.ru/Mice_Judge_training_manual.pdf -- it does use a turntable layout to actually test mice. The result though is not very trustworthy: http://www.extrememhz.com/x710-p2.shtml

Yours is amazing article! Good work. I'm wating more mice to be tested. :-)

<< Comment #600 @ 08:44 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #525

I saw that page, someone kindly linked it when I was looking for feedback in the forums last month. Their test is a downloadable app that checks for the smoothness of the mouse movement when you move it in circles. It checks that the readings don't get jaggy and provides a score on the smooth factor. It is a reasonable test, but the problem is that it is not entirely repeatable because it depends on your hands to make the same movements. When I was playing around with it the scores didn't change much though.

It doesn't test things like top speed, and the response curve (for negative acceleration) so I didn't stop my experiment when I saw the page.

They do mention putting the mouse on a rotating disc but they don't talk about top speeds and response. Possibly because they did the test and found that their mouse isn't better than Logitechs or Razers. They do have a good mouse though.

<< Comment #527 @ 17:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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McFly

Which motherboard did you use for this test, Sujoy?

I might have to get one of them. Seems it is pretty ace for O/C'ing the USB.

<< Comment #564 @ 22:55 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #527

It's a Shuttle XPC SN25P barebones I got last year (just in time for Quake 4).

Edited by Sujoy at 23:00 UTC, 12 December 2006

<< Comment #533 @ 18:04 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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daftvader

Awesome, thanks alot Sujoy. And everyone said I was lying when I told them the MS Laser mouse 6000 skipped, pah! And I was even thinking of getting a Habu :/ Optical ftw :)

<< Comment #534 @ 19:28 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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_Unreal_

Sujoy, you have to make it more clear which model of A4tech X7 mice you've tested. I'm sure that was a X710BF. Thtre are other models: X708, X718, X750 (laser) with modifications (F and BF).

2%

<< Comment #535 @ 19:40 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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m1ndphuq

So how does the fat 2020 fair for those of us who use high sensitivity settings and thus wont be doing mew- style kungfu moves with our mice? :)
Just curious becuase from what I understand about it's shape, low, wide and wingman like, that I would really like this mouse even if it does have fat's name on it. lol

I'd also be curious to know how the mx500/mx300 fair at 500hz

<< Comment #538 @ 20:23 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_ - Reply to #535

I use a G3 with an effective sens of 14cm/360. Lasers are ok for that sens.

<< Comment #544 @ 21:27 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

karizma

amazing !! =)

<< Comment #537 @ 20:21 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_

Ok, I've got a bit of a question for you Sujoy. On the second page you refer to mouse DPI vs. game resolution vs. desired sensitivity. In Quake it's easy to manipulate your sensitivity vs. your dpi and driver sens setting given all the options available. However in games like FEAR, it's difficult to taper your sensitivity down if you are using a higher dpi because of the limitations of the sensitivity slider in-game. For example, it's difficult to use 1600dpi with an effective sens of 14cm/360. To achieve this, you have to drop the sens slider in your drivers way down. Now it's my understanding that the driver sens slider directly effects how the point moves across the screen. Default (6th notch in windows HID and logitech setpoint) uses a 1:1 dpi ratio for mouse movement. Above 6th notch, the drivers interpolate a higher dpi, thus skipping pixels. Below 6th notch, it slows the cursor below the proper dpi setting, thus effectively reducing your dpi slightly.

Provided this information is correct, my question is this. By how much does the sens slider reduce your dpi at the various notches below 6th?

The reason I ask is because I play q3 at 800x600. With 400dpi set on my G3, it's perfectly fine and I get the proper precision that I need. However some of my other games that I play causally like say FEAR, the Prince of Persia series, and the new Star Trek Legacy game I play with a higher resolution. Typically 1152x864 up to 1600x1200. By doing the math for my sens per the resolution, I would need a maxium of 1163dpi (or 1000dpi which is a nice round number). 1000dpi at 6th notch is too fast for my taste, it feels way better to me (and closer to the feel of my 400dpi settings) at 3rd notch.

<< Comment #549 @ 22:05 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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donka - Reply to #537

Q3 and prince of Persia.... and Star Treck

I think im gonna e-vomit

<< Comment #565 @ 22:57 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #537

The sensitivity slider (not the DPI slider) shouldn't affect what happens in games if they're using Direct Input.

For example the Intellipoint sensitivity slider has no effect on my reporting program that was using DirectInput to measure the mouse response.

<< Comment #567 @ 23:01 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_ - Reply to #565

Hmm. Are there even any games these days that don't use DirectInput?

<< Comment #612 @ 09:53 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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McFly - Reply to #567

I think ET doesn't?

<< Comment #628 @ 13:48 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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spinmove_ - Reply to #612

I've heard that, but why in the world would a game like that NOT have DirectInput. Seems a bit daft eh?

<< Comment #541 @ 21:22 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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eri

Ive had an overclocked mx500 for 2 years now, good to see i'm still on top lol

<< Comment #546 @ 21:31 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0

Oh yes youre right I forgot about the sensitivity buttons. Of course on my mx518 I ripped the buttons out because they are annoying and the mouse then runs at 800 dpi by default , and with no way to change it with the buttons and no drivers installed it stays at 800 DPI just how I like it.

<< Comment #552 @ 22:14 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (nat-mo2.aster.pl)

Excellent review!!!
Can one can me point to good USB overclocking guide.
Thanks!

<< Comment #556 @ 22:36 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Fortress

If you take a look into README.ENG.TXT of hidusbf, you'll find out that I did the translation. So [+] me hoes! :P

8%

<< Comment #569 @ 23:09 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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toxicvibes

I`m still mind blowed by the weak results of copperhead....how is it possible ? :(

<< Comment #581 @ 01:52 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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gk_nz - Reply to #569

hype + good marketing != best mouse

3%

<< Comment #572 @ 23:25 UTC, 12 December 2006 >>

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By

Venim

fantastic reviews sujoy

[+]

<< Comment #577 @ 01:17 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (200-158-98-210.dsl.telesp.net.br)

My gameplay style is what you called "High Sens", a bit higher sometimes, a comom problem i see in low cost mices is they are too hard to start moving, it's almost impossible to move a single "count" with those mices because the force needed to make them start moving is too much to control them after moving, the diference between static and kinetic friction, it shouldn't be too hard to measure it for those who build a machine to benchmark mices...
And for those "High Sens players" it will be more usefull than max speed.

<< Comment #619 @ 10:56 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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mew - Reply to #577

its also matters a lot what mousepad you have. you could also try some mouse skates or something.

<< Comment #667 @ 03:12 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #577

Mouse weight, pad and skates matter a huge lot with high sens. Try a light mouse with teflon feet on an Icemat and feel the difference. :)

<< Comment #583 @ 02:14 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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TenPin

I have a logitech MX300 and I use it under Linux. I can make it work at 800 dpi under Linux. I examined the linux kernel mouse driver and found it has an option specifically to set the MX series of mice to any resolution between 200-800. I tested the resolution by measuring how far I needed to move the mouse for a certain number of pixels traveled on the screen and it was indeed at 800dpi. I have no idea how you would go about setting it to 800dpi in windows.

Awesome article though. I'm impressed with your method.

It was a pleasant surprise to find out that I have owned what is on paper basically the best mouse you can buy for the last 3 years. I always knew it was good ;)

In fact recently all the buttons on my MX300 started malfunctioning which greatly saddened me because I couldn't find one to buy anywhere online. In a desperate measure to salvage it I opened it up then opened up all the microswitches and polished the contacts with my knife. It worked! The only problem was some slight build up on the contacts that was causing intermittent connections. Those microswitches are HORRIBLY fiddly to put back together though. i can recommend using leatherman wave pliers.

Edited by TenPin at 02:38 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #584 @ 02:50 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

wata

Sujoy :
when you'll be testing mx510, could you try it with the Logitech MouseWare Advanced Utility ?
With this utility you can choose between two tracking options : speed or precision, as you can see on this image. According to Jimb0b (Comment #397) it allows to switch between 400 and 800 DPI.
Also on the Logitech downloading page for this tool, it's told that the "speed" option fixes negative acceleration :
Tracking Optimization
Speed: If you move your pointing device in very quick movements and you prefer more speed and less precision, then this radio bullet should be selected. This selection also fixes negative acceleration. The default setting is OFF.

So, could you test if mx510 (and others mouses of this category) can really have 800 DPI, and what is the influence of these "speed or precision" options ?

thanks a lot for the brilliant article, it badly lacked.

<< Comment #601 @ 08:45 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #584

Thanks, I will retest with these.

<< Comment #610 @ 09:42 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Twist` - Reply to #601

Great!

<< Comment #636 @ 16:44 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Jimb0b - Reply to #601

While you run your new tests on these logi mice if you haven't already could you test and include the mx300/500 sensor results @500Hz seeing as you recommend 500Hz as a safer overclock and also some other mice tested run at 500Hz out of the box like the G5 which would show results on a more equal footing.

Edited by Jimb0b at 16:45 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #587 @ 03:52 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-68-84-149-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net)

I'd love to see performance figures for wireless mice, just out of curiosity...

<< Comment #603 @ 08:45 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #587

I'm trying to make a test to measure the latency of the mouse. That might be interesting to compare.

<< Comment #588 @ 04:12 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

tazmanian

This is a moment to remember. Mouse benchmarks was LONG OVERDUE, now with the knowledge out there Mouse companies will be exposed.

It looks like the mice in the last few years have never really improved and it was purely marketing.

Unbelievable result, this is truly amazing.

Thank You Sujoy!!

<< Comment #590 @ 04:28 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0

Cant wait to see the deathadder added. Razer is making more preposterous claims with this mouse, like being able to move the mouse 2.5 times faster than an 800 dpi optical mouse. so whats that the mx500/300 do 4.5 m/s right? so theyre claiming 11.25 m/s? =D can we get a fixture on whther this mouse gets owned?

<< Comment #593 @ 06:45 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #590

1800dpi/800dpi = 2.25, that's all they were saying.

<< Comment #604 @ 08:46 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #590

One thing is good, they're not making their new mouse a laser. I'm glad they're moving in the right direction, I hope the mouse turns out well because I like Razer as a brand.

<< Comment #622 @ 11:44 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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CR0C0 - Reply to #604

Well the laser tech is just not working out so far but infrared? Sounds like a gimmick, not a good mouse tracking technology. A sufficeiently warm mouse pad will be giving off enough infrared signals to flood the sensor. A sufficiently cold enough mouse pad will be dampening the signals enough to confuse the sensor. Also razer has recently shown a general tendency towards releasing products with virtually no testing, or releasing them despite having tested them to be malfunctioning. My guess is this mouse will be another failure.

<< Comment #665 @ 03:01 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #622

A sufficeiently warm mouse pad will be giving off enough infrared signals to flood the sensor. A sufficiently cold enough mouse pad will be dampening the signals enough to confuse the sensor.

Based on what? You aren't taking the wavelengths or intensities of light involved into account, but even assuming the pad's radiation is indistinguishable from that of the infrared LED's, I really doubt just a bit more or less light than what there already is will render the surface texture unreadable. You're pulling this statement out of thin air.

<< Comment #670 @ 07:05 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

CR0C0 - Reply to #665

Not really, reread it and concentrate on the meaning of the words and how they add up to the overall statement, crafted in such a way as to make the statement inarguably true.

<< Comment #651 @ 22:09 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (d154-5-186-216.bchsia.telus.net) - Reply to #604

I would have to disagre with you saying that laser is an "inferior" mouse technology. Although it is true (as your testing shows) that the optical mice are able to track to higher speeds than the laser mice, in general - you cannot neglect the fact that the laser mice are able to attain notably higher DPIs than the optical mice. The highest optical mouse you tested was 1600dpi, versus the standard 2000dpi for most laser mice, and up to rated 2400 measured 2700 dpi for the fatal1ty (although I personally don't much like the mouse anyways). And before you go telling me that I could never possibly notice the difference between dpi at those levels - let me tell you that when you're FPSing with a sensitivty of less than an inch/360, you definitely notice the difference. I would be pixel-skipping like mad to play with this sensitivity on a lower dpi mouse (I use a G5).

The truth of the matter is that for a low-sensitivty player, a 400 dpi optical overclocked mouse like the MX300 or MX500 is definitely your best bet. If you play kindof in-between, get a decently fast perfect speed 800 or 1600 dpi mouse. If you're a high sensitivty player, then you're definitely going to want to ditch the optical and go for a laser mouse. The slightly lower perfect speed is not going to be noticeable at all (you'll never come close to it as a high sens player) and the extra dpi will result in much better aiming precision.

Basically, optical and laser are different but, in my opinion, equally valid mouse technologies. Low sensitivity players would favour an optical mouse, high sensitivity players would favour a laser mouse.

<< Comment #676 @ 12:15 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #651

True, the DPI is very important for people with high sensitivity.

For the vast majority of players, that sensitivity would be too high to control well. A survey needs to be done but I would guess that going from 1600DPI to 2000DPI would benefit less than 1% of gamers. That's why I made the sweeping statement of laser being inferior.

<< Comment #702 @ 17:10 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (lestat.hc.uic.edu) - Reply to #676

I gotta admit.. I'm in agreement that laser is a viable technology.

I never twitch my hands, and watching a multitude of only somewhat serious gamers I don't think I'm in the minority here at all....

the increased accuracy and precision is where laser really shines...

I KNOW my accuracy is better with my G5 than with my MX500.. I started playing much, much better. You can say what you want to say about top speed but when it comes to gaming you can't deny real-world improvements from better accuracy and precision (probably as a result of the higher dpi)

<< Comment #719 @ 04:03 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #702

I rely on that top speed. infact, I would like to have a mouse that handles even more speed.

<< Comment #724 @ 06:42 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #702

When laser tech hits 3000DPI, and assuming optical doesn't improve beyond 1600, it would make more sense as an upgrade.

<< Comment #591 @ 04:51 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

m1ndphuq

Sniffing around A4tech's website and they have a few models of that x7. It looks as if the model tested was the lowest model of bunch. They range from 1000dpi all the way up to a 2500dpi mouse. I'd like to see a review on that thing myself considering how well there lower end gaming mouse did...

haha, they even have a mouse that looks exactly like the mx500 down to the icon at the palm area of the mouse.
http://www.a4tech.us/product2.asp?CID=1&S...MNO=X6-80D
o_O

Edited by c0ld at 04:52 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #597 @ 07:41 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy - Reply to #591

GLASER!

<< Comment #594 @ 06:58 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (bas9-ottawa23-1088836686.dsl.bell.ca)

This was a really excellent article. I recently upgraded from the wingman that I'd been using for the last eight years to a creative 1010 and have had all of the problems that you described (with the exception of the rattling, you may have just gotten unlucky there).

Which is not to say that I don't like my new mouse, the shape trumps all of the other issues (though I get embarrased when my friends see that I'm using a Fatal1ty branded product), but I'm considering upgrading to the 2020 now, based on what you've said here.

<< Comment #596 @ 07:20 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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donka - Reply to #594

Only jelous people hate on fatality. Good friends.

<< Comment #653 @ 23:02 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (bas9-ottawa23-1088816649.dsl.bell.ca) - Reply to #596

It wasn't really the guy that I was talking about. It's buying into the marketing campaign that gets me.

<< Comment #606 @ 08:52 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (miun105-135.dynamic.miun.se)

I'd really really would like to see a test of Logiechs G7 (unless I've missed it).

<< Comment #607 @ 08:53 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #606

I had to buy a lot of the mice (mainly because I was too impatient to wait), so I didn't have the G7 to test. I'm planning a follow-up article in the new year where I test a HUGE range of mice. I'll also be able to take on all the feedback from here and make it a lot better.

<< Comment #627 @ 13:39 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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TenPin - Reply to #607

Did you buy the Logitech MX300 and G1, if so, where did you buy them from?

<< Comment #678 @ 12:17 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #627

I had a few old MX300's at the office so I took those for testing.

G1's are really hard to get hold of but I managed to get two earlier this year at my gaming centre from Pixmania. I just nabbed those for testing at work.

<< Comment #602 @ 08:45 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

Space Cowboy

More from the people-should-RTFA dept. - Joystiq comments!

Lulz ahead

Edited by Space Cowboy at 08:46 UTC, 13 December 2006

3%

<< Comment #618 @ 10:55 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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dml! - Reply to #602

You can overclock a mouse? Does it need extra cooling?

ROFL!!!

Edited by d3mol!t!on at 10:55 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #666 @ 03:03 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #602

"Now, a writer at ESReality seems to have solved this problem with an inventive setup that can compare mice objectively on their own merits."

Now the next step is to kiss a girl! Ok lets say you did perform a lot of tests on your mouse to determine performance and came to some interesting conclusions. Who would you tell? I mean who would you tell that wouldn't laugh behind your back. It's like that scene from 40 year old virgin where the guy is explaining how his weekend consisted of wanting to make and eat a sandwich. Only this mouse story is much funnier.

I am at a loss for words.

<< Comment #677 @ 12:16 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #602

I kissed a girl once. It wasn't worth the effort though. I had to be really careful not to wake her up.

8%

<< Comment #679 @ 12:20 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy - Reply to #677

LOL!

<< Comment #613 @ 10:21 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (mnprox13.epo.nl)

Fantastic article and testing. Thanks Sujoy!

<< Comment #614 @ 10:32 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (195.210.206.93)

Great article, i just dont understand why didn't you include the MX510, is it because it's the same as MX500 or you just didn't get a hand on one :D

Well nevermind all in all a very informative and good article.

<< Comment #673 @ 11:04 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #614

I didn't have one unfortunately. I hope to get a bigger range and do a bigger round-up in January.

<< Comment #620 @ 11:10 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (24-107-231-215.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com)

Well done test, any gamer familiar with the scientific method has been waiting for something like this. This article alone may cause mouse manufacturers to shed marketing terms in favor of performance factors. It is important that whoever reads this bookmark this page and send it to every gamer you know.

This is the most definitive and conclusive mouse benchmark I have ever seen, I can't wait to see new mouses added (Such as the mx510 and the Razer Deathadder)

<< Comment #621 @ 11:10 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-24-12-238-84.hsd1.il.comcast.net)

A very interesting study upon mice. I was disappointed to see that my mouse wasn't on it(Wireless Intellimouse 2.0).

<< Comment #625 @ 13:25 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (chello062179039247.chello.pl)

To Sujoy:

Razer Krait has two modes : 400dpi / 1600dpi. I'm curious how it'll perform @400dpi. Are U gonna update this part?

BTW: You did a great job! This is the best mice test I've ever seen.

<< Comment #626 @ 13:25 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (hoas-fe14dd00-205.dhcp.inet.fi)

Very, very nice article! Scientific, precise, and conclusive. Though I wish you had commented more on the techincalities, such as why it might be the mx500@1000Hz was 'better' than mx518@1000Hz?

<< Comment #629 @ 13:59 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dwst-aa515.cecomet.net)

Thanks, nice article and it confirms my findings that at the default usb polling speed, the A4Tech X7 mouse is the most accurate mouse you can buy for a lot less $$ than all the other gaming mice.

Keep this updated ;)

<< Comment #630 @ 13:59 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (213.151.77.190)

I just wondered whether the test on Logitech mice were run with latest firmware installed - My G5 actually works on more surfaces now and feels a lot more responsive now that I installed it ...

<< Comment #637 @ 16:57 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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b33p - Reply to #630

Im also interested to know if Sujoy did the tests for the G5 using the latest firmware.

<< Comment #645 @ 20:16 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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ouzo - Reply to #637

Yes he used latest drivers/firmware for all mice.

<< Comment #631 @ 13:59 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (bl4-172-151.dsl.telepac.pt)

Sugoy, nice work, can you tell me what model is that A4tech? as I saw differente models with the same look and do you know if all X7 models perform the same? I wish I had more time to wait for the other reviews you'll do.. but xmas is around the corner :P

What mouse do you use after all this tests? lol I think A4tech wins a lot from this review, never expected that to be honest! How does the mx300 perform at 500 hz? Cause 1000.. is danger danger :(

<< Comment #638 @ 16:57 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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rokky - Reply to #631

I run my mx300 at 500hz and I can't get it to skip or produce negative accel. I used to play with a G3, but going back to the mx300 makes me never wanna plug that mouse in again. :)

<< Comment #632 @ 13:59 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (cpe.atm2-0-1021203.0x535980ea.abnxx8.customer.tele.dk)

Greatest mousereview ever.. finally something which you can use, instead of biased opinions :)

I see you didn't use the ordinary Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical 1.1 (http://www.continent.com.au/images/products/MIMSIMOPTOEM.gif), but is that because you know it has the same technology as the 3.0?

I really want to know, since I don't feel that my 1.1SE (http://www.peecee.dk/uploads/1106/intellimouse.jpg) aims near as well as my 3.0s, but perhaps this is just due to the shape of the mouse.

- h0lm

<< Comment #639 @ 16:57 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (ctb-cache8-vif0.saix.net)

Hey,
great review. First time anyone's done anything like this. Do you plan on adding the Logitech G3 anytime soon? Lol unfortunately since i'm left-handed i can't user a lot of the mice on test. I had the Copperhead lined up but it looks like it's on to something better for me.
Welshman

<< Comment #641 @ 17:31 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (84-104-177-96.cable.quicknet.nl) - Reply to #639

Do you mean this G3?

-Carni4 out

<< Comment #640 @ 16:57 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (84-104-177-96.cable.quicknet.nl)

Very nice article!!

I was about to buy a new mouse. A Habu. It was about to replace my old mouse. Guess what it is? A mx500!

So instead of sending this one to trashcan, I'm going to OC my USB port. :D

I know these mice are hard to come by. Logitech doesn't even have them on their website anymore. So if someone wants to make me an offer :D

- Carni4 out

<< Comment #644 @ 19:53 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (C9254125.poa.virtua.com.br)

AMAZING article, congratulations on such a well done test - great to see such an informative article instead of another "DX10 Overview" article, heheh.

<< Comment #646 @ 20:16 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (d54C0735A.access.telenet.be)

Hello Sujoy,

I liked this article a lot and am glad that finally someone took the time to really test those mice. One question though, you tested only wired mice, was there any reason behind it or will those cordless ones follow later on?

Thanks for the load of work anyways and keep it up,
Docus

<< Comment #654 @ 23:02 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (dD576B7F8.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #646

Because no serious gamer would choose a wireless mouse as their first choice. Future test will show if this is just some kind of religion or wether these wireless mice realy perform worse. (i'm expecting them to lag, like the fat1010)

<< Comment #649 @ 21:00 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-71-227-248-242.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)

What model of the A4Tech X7 is this? They have like 11 different models, some laser, some optical etc.

http://www.a4tech.com/en/product1.asp?CID=102&SCID=103

<< Comment #674 @ 11:06 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #649

X-710BF

<< Comment #648 @ 20:45 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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By

rTx

wow good article man

so this basically means that the technical side of good mice doesnt really matter at all ???

cuz 3.0 places very low below other mice and 3.0 is widely more used than them, i also own it and it responds flawlessly ...

Edited by pestilence at 20:46 UTC, 13 December 2006

<< Comment #650 @ 21:35 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (gate2.dfait-maeci.gc.ca)

I have a an MX700 optical mouse. The keyboard that came with the dekstop unit died and Logitech just sent me a whole new desktop, the MX3200 serious. I miss my old keyboard terribly, amazing how you get used to things so fast, and I tried to use the new laser mouse that came with the desktop, but it just sucks. Its slow, almost sluggish, not at all precise, and the unit in my hand feels all wrong. I have gone back to the old optical mouse, feeling somewhat let down and silly to go back to the 'old' technology, but after reading this article... I am very reliefed to learn.. its not's not just me!

Thanks!!!

<< Comment #652 @ 22:51 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (client-82-2-121-34.brnt.adsl.virgin.net)

its a pretty useless mouse test for me as I need to know how the MX1000 and Revolution compare.
A lot of effort chaps, shame you didnt finish the job!

<< Comment #658 @ 00:46 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Jimb0b - Reply to #652

How on earth do you expect 1 guy to test every mouse out there past and present when he is funding it and giving all his own time to even start this huge project.
Yes he missed off a few popular mice and is now in the process of getting more sample mice from companies as he's made them take notice,but come on thats hardly a fair comment.

2%

<< Comment #655 @ 23:26 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (p508C5E7C.dip.t-dialin.net)

q
Where the mouses touching the turntable?
Because laser mouses can give some problems with to much distance?

Also did you trie another pad just only as a reference of the results.

To be sure the pad is not a factor in the results of the difference between the optical and laser mouses..
There are a lot of pads as known old qpads and so on that are not that good with laser mouses.

I mean.
Some are better for optical ans some for laser, so the pad could make the difference.

Yes please do some tests with pads with laser and or optical.
And what / which mouse or pad should be the basic reference mouse and or pad???
To compare the others.
Because of benchmarking then there should a reference test object or combination for the basic comparation.

???
please go on nice work.

<< Comment #656 @ 23:26 UTC, 13 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (p508C5E7C.dip.t-dialin.net)

q
forgot something

ther is also a known issue that exact the same mouse can perform different.
So 1 mouse of a kind isn't 100% proved test result.
Please use minimal 2 mouse of a kind from a different manufacturing batch!

sorrry

<< Comment #657 @ 00:34 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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MOTHERRUSSIA

Amazing job, Sojuy!

I wonder how fast the actual player is moving his mouse. Take that "mew" guy as an example. What’s his speed?

My G5’s Setpoint software sensitivity settings are 2/11, 2000DPI and Quake 4 sense is 4, no accel. G5: The Perfect Control range ends at 1.30 m/s (51"/s) and the Malfunction Speed is 1.35 m/s (53"/s). I probably never move my mouse with such speeds. So in practice, should I be concerned that G5 Perfect Control is 1.30 m/s?

G5 has huuuge Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) gaming feet (wtfever it means). I find these feet have the smoother and better traction than any other mice (copperhead, diamondback, mx500 series)used by me, most likely b/s of the size .
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/produc...037-05.JPG

In my experience, razer mice had too small feet and it was skipping frequently because of that on my QcK+ mousepad.

Edited by halftheman at 15:57 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #659 @ 00:52 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Fortress - Reply to #657

PTFE = teflon

<< Comment #686 @ 13:19 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #657

G5 has Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) gaming feet (wtfever it means). I find these feet have the smoother and better traction than any other mice used by me (copperhead, diamondback, mx500 series).

All new Razer mice, including CH and DB, have teflon feet too.

<< Comment #698 @ 15:49 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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MOTHERRUSSIA - Reply to #686

Razer's feet size is very small, especially if you look at the front ones. There is a better (not perfect) traction on the cloth surface with little feet, but they skip as mofo on plastic based mousepads. And look at G5's feet size! I find it very important.

Edited by halftheman at 16:17 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #660 @ 01:04 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

nthexwn

The following is a hyper-scientific diagram intended as an addendum to Sujoy's article:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/Nano_css/pwned.png

Edited by nthexwn at 01:08 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #662 @ 01:31 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (host-84-9-121-154.bulldogdsl.com)

how did mouse pad surfaces have a play in the tests?

<< Comment #663 @ 02:01 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #662

There was no change in mousepad. All tests were done on steelpad QcK. However, testing on different surfaces is planned in the future. All this info is on here allready btw.

<< Comment #668 @ 03:51 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Sens

Some afterthoughts:

For alot of the mice the only differences are the DPI, but obviously there are other factors which I think are "just" as important as Perfect Control. It's a nice start, but I hope most people don't disregard alot of the mice, even the laser mice.
Trying to figure out those factors makes me wonder though, because the graphs technically say that (apart from dpi) all the mice are identical in performence up until a point. Which ofcourse we all know isn't quite the same when we swap mouse to mouse ingame... so:

All I can think of is stationary response times, going left to right will mean the mouse will be at 0ms twice before resting. It's a type of acceleration I guses, something that is probably only different between laser and optical. How you can figure THAT out, I dont know :)
Accuracy, does the mouse actually track every pixel to the provided increment in movement? Or like 5 pixels for every 0.001mm of distance?
/shrug. I'm sure you know this already, wonder if you have any ideas ;)

<< Comment #671 @ 07:11 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy

And I thought Slashdot would give the best and most-informed commentary about such a technically precise, objective, and clear article. I guess this yet another argument that hardcore gamers and the knowledge they carry are still heavily in the niche. Some of the replies to the more idiotic comments helped alleviate the damage, but these people apparently aren't listening (or reading).

Emphasis on perfect control is wrong.
(Score:3, Interesting)
by Jagasian (129329) on Wednesday December 13, @01:42PM (#17226152)
The emphasis on "perfect control" is silly. Users should not need to move their mouse fast enough to the point where these perfect control numbers matter. The more important measurements are sample rate and DPI. The higher, the better for both, as it makes mouse movement smoother since the mouse updates come in faster and they don't need to be enlarged as much, which reduces "laggy" and "jaggy" mouse movement. This means that the Fatal1ty 2020 [creative.com] mouse is the current best, assuming the ergonomic aspects are to your liking.

Could have been better...
(Score:2)
by blahplusplus (757119) on Wednesday December 13, @10:57PM (#17232620)
It would have been nice if he actually played FPS's with them over the period of weeks and months and tabulated changes in his frags vs. deaths... I believe UT2004 would have been excellent game for this due to built in statistical tracking.

Duh
(Score:5, Insightful)
by hcdejong (561314) <h,c,de,jong&xmsnet,nl> on Monday December 11, @11:23AM (#17195550)
Um, because the most important aspects of a mouse (how it fits your hand, and how it feels) are unquantifiable? I don't care about dpi or whatever, I want to be able to use it all day without getting RSI.

<< Comment #675 @ 11:46 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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stripy - Reply to #671

rofl at (most of) slashdot comments.

<< Comment #680 @ 12:21 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #671

I thought it would be sensible to not include the personal statements and do a review based 100% on objective measurements. It seems like most people want opinions though, even if they can (and often are) different to other people's opinions.

I guess the best article would be one that has both objective stuff (measurements) and subjective stuff (the shape of this mouse roxxors).

<< Comment #683 @ 12:52 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy - Reply to #680

But wasn't the whole point of doing this article to debunk the subjective myths (OMG LASER GAVES ME MORE FRAGZ!!1) and present pure data? It's not your fault people are lazy to read and inform themselves of actual facts despite being right there in front of their faces. What will someone as discerning as mew do with "The feeling of this mouse in my hand is incredible!"?

You accomplished what you set out to do - gave the hardcore gamers the information they needed to make informed decisions for themselves and broke a lot of hype walls. I expected the sheep replies from the other sites, but the discussion here at ESR balanced it off :>

<< Comment #700 @ 16:01 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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MOTHERRUSSIA - Reply to #680

Is there anyway to track my mouse speed movement while I game? I just wonder how relevant these speeds in practice.

<< Comment #725 @ 06:43 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #700

Hard to say as most games take over control of the mouse. I've been trying to make an app that can watch your mouse movement in the background but no luck so far.

<< Comment #684 @ 13:01 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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stripy - Reply to #671

just read gizmodo to, and some other sites
seems like nobody gets it:D

<< Comment #685 @ 13:05 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Space Cowboy - Reply to #684

Seems like nobody wants to get it. =/

The sheep just like to rationalize to themselves that dropping $50 on the ZOMG LATEST AND GREATEST LAZAR G5 was a justified purchase.

<< Comment #687 @ 13:29 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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stripy - Reply to #685

jep

<< Comment #688 @ 13:31 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #671

I guess this yet another argument that hardcore gamers and the knowledge they carry are still heavily in the niche.

I was rather disappointed as well. It shows a lot on the more generic forums in general - comment on the poor max speeds of laser mice and all you'll get are weird looks because nobody can imagine someone moving a mouse at the speeds you quote... But I thought /. just might have made an exception, as there are lots of intelligent people there, some of them bound to be gamers.

<< Comment #672 @ 09:13 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (82-44-75-177.stb.ubr05.newm.blueyonder.co.uk)

great read sujoy, very intresting results, id never have guessed that my old mx 500 had a higher malfunction speed than my diamondback, but a quick test shows it to be very true:P.

Would it be possible to test a diamondback cable with the logitech and see if the results are the same. Its probably not going to make a difference, but id like to know for sure.

<< Comment #690 @ 14:43 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (107.251.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)

Too bad the Logitech mx610 isn't tested, it's the only one I found that is available for left-handed people.

It has been very hard for me to find a good mouse since I am left-handed and I am also a very high sensitivity player.

<< Comment #694 @ 15:01 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Shaddap - Reply to #690

try the g1

<< Comment #697 @ 15:48 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (107.251.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) - Reply to #694

The G1 is only 800dpi and doesn't seem to be available anymore.

I calculated that I do 1280 pixels in 2cm. So I probably need a mouse with more than 1600dpi.

<< Comment #699 @ 15:55 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #697

g1 should still be available in stores. I guess you could try g3 (laser).

<< Comment #701 @ 16:15 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (107.251.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) - Reply to #699

G3 looks cool. I might try it.

May be it lacks the side scrolling on the wheel.

<< Comment #713 @ 23:28 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #701

I havent found side scrolling usefull in any games.

<< Comment #716 @ 00:50 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

siberx - Reply to #713

Well, the G3 has the same sensor, to my knowledge, as the G5 - and as a very high sensitivty player I can report that this sensor works excellently for this kind of player. I am naturally a left-handed individual, so I understand how you feel - but I am lucky in that I have always used my mice right-handed since I started using computers and I'm very glad I did for exactly this reason. If you're stuck using a mouse left-handed and play high sensitivity, a G3 is probably your best bet (unless you want to go with the Razer copperhead, which I personally don't like at all due to its flimsy light weight and odd button placement).

About z0uLess's comment regarding the side-scrolling - although there is basically no reason to "scroll sideways" in a game, you need to keep in mind that the setpoint software allows you to bind the two side scroll tilts to basically whatever you want in a particular application, so they can be bound as keys to do specific things - acting like two more quite fast buttons. They see more use in RTS/RPG gaming than in FPS, but you could easily bind the tilts to tasks such as reloading, flashlight, etc... to be able to hit them quickly without them getting in your way. As such, I've found it almost invaluable, and I would never use a mouse that lacked side scrolling functionality anymore for exactly this reason, not because I actually "side scroll" all that much.

<< Comment #691 @ 14:43 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (p508C5E7C.dip.t-dialin.net)

The same mopuse pad used for laser and optical could give a bad result.
Because ther is a large diference between how laser acts on surfaces and the optical.

So if you used the qck that performs good with optical, its an old pad so lasermouse could perform here worse and so on.

Yes the distance of the mouse to the pad is with laser mouses very important.

Please give other pads a try that are realy tested for laser mouses, then if the results ( with the mouse on the pad ofcourse) are almost the same your bench is ok.

its a idee as small follow up pad like nova or 5L and so on are performing better with laser mouses.
But should doing the same with optical.
Thats is known is not 100% with the qck.. ( the pad is Ok but.. difference between laser and optical..)

<< Comment #695 @ 15:19 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (kbhn-vbrg-sr0-vl205-085.perspektivbredband.net)

Hi Sujoy what a great article!

I think that what you done is unique for the Mousing benchmarks, and I really enjoyed reading the reviews. I sport 2 old MS IE 3.0's on a Steelpad 4S and a Steelpad QcK+ so I look forward to your next article on mouse surfaces. I have a request, if you could test one of the metal pads, like the Steelpad 3/4S since they are very un-popular and I wonder why ( I LOVE mine).

cheers, jAMBAZZ

<< Comment #703 @ 18:00 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #695

Hard and slick pads such as Icemat and the original Steelpads cater to a very specific niche, and it isn't surprising that they aren't as popular as the more, shall we say, versatile cloth and plastic pads. A hard pad's an excellent choice if what you desire is minimal friction (dear good it feels awesome with a set of teflon feet), but it comes at a cost: regular cleaning is required to keep the pad void of tiny flecks of dust or dirt that could otherwise interfere with movement and make a very distinctive (and annoying) screeching sound. Even then such pads make more noise than people are used to. Another thing to take into account is the fact that hard pads simply aren't available in larger sizes.

Edited by Ezku at 18:02 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #696 @ 15:19 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Maztah

What gaming glove are you using there mew?

<< Comment #736 @ 17:56 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

mew - Reply to #696

i made it myself from a cloth usually used for sports pants. its got a silk-like surface on the outside and a cotton inside. its really slippery on my cloth mousepad and also prevents the sweaty wrist effect over long sessions.

<< Comment #704 @ 19:03 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (client-82-3-85-251.manc.adsl.virgin.net)

it is a fair comment, the Logitech flagship wireless produt has been left out and the previous Logitech flagship wireless product has been left out.

Thats a serious error if the result is to be fair!

<< Comment #709 @ 23:10 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #704

This was really a study of the sensors, and the G7 has a G5/G3 sensor in it. I don't have a method to measure the signal latency just yet so a review of the G7 wouldn't have had anything new in it.

<< Comment #718 @ 00:59 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #709

These people are funny :(

<< Comment #705 @ 19:03 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (vl187-194.vl187.GeorgiaSouthern.edu)

Because I am building a new rig and spending quite a bit of money on it, I am curious what mouse would be good for the resolution I plan to game at.

I plan on gaming at 1600x1200 or higher on either a 24" or 30" monitor. I used to have a MX510 and I absolutely loved it. I was planning on getting a G7 though because from what I heard it is just as good as a wired mouse... I am kinda wondering if I should go with a MX500 or a G7. I know you haven't done a review on a G7 yet, but wires are so annoying when gaming.

Basically all I want to know is, "What would be a good mouse to use at a high resolution?" Should I be more worried about the dpi then precision??

I have read threw most of the comments on this topic, and I have also noticed that quite a few people, including me, want to know how the MX500 performs at 500mhz. The MX518 is another choice to consider because of this.

Thanks for the read Sujoy. T'was fun and informative.

-sbd

<< Comment #717 @ 00:50 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

siberx - Reply to #705

Well, you decision should basically be based on a combination of the factors of the resolution you plan to game at and the sensitivity you usually like to play your games at. Firstly, the higher resolution you game at, the higher DPI mouse you're going to want to avoid pixel skipping. Secondly, the higher your sensitivty, the more you're going to need a high DPI mouse to avoid the same pixel skipping. Sujoy posted a good approximation calculation for the DPI you need on the second page of his article, that basically took your horizontal screen resolution and multiplied it by 4 (which with a FOV of 90 will give you 360 degrees), and then divided that number by how many inches of mouse movement it takes you to do a full 360 degree turn in game at your preferred sensitivity. This number will give you an idea of the minimum dpi you want to play your games without skipping. For example, I often play (especially older games) at 1600x1200, so I multiply 1600 by 4 to get the total pixels for one rotation, which is 6400. This number is then divided by your inches-per-360 sensitivty, which, for calculation's sake let's assume it's 4 inches per 360. You would then need at least a 1600dpi mouse to avoid any pixel skipping. If you do play with very high sensitivity, it's probably impossible to avoid some pixel skipping (I FPS with about 3.2 pixels-per-step skipping, even with a 2000dpi mouse) but if you can avoid it you'll get the best precision and accuracy you can get in game.

<< Comment #735 @ 17:42 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

m1ndphuq - Reply to #717

I play with somewhat mid/high sensitivity at 10cm/360(and I also play with 90fov) which is about as or is very close to as sensitive as anyone I've heard of.. and yet even with a massive 1600x1200 resolution the math tells me I wont need anymore then 640DPI. That seems very low.. Assuming I didnt mess up this simple math equation I cant see why anyone would need much more then 1000 or so DPI, let allone have pixel skipping with a mouse that opperates at 2000dpi..
Am I missing something here? And for refrence what in game sensitivity and resolution?

Edited by c0ld at 17:43 UTC, 15 December 2006

<< Comment #757 @ 23:51 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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siberx - Reply to #735

Well, if you look at my numbers you should realise that I'm working at one inch per 360 (yes, a single inch) or less, which is substantially higher sensitivty than 10cm (4 inches). Also, from what I can see from the resultant DPI you got - you forgot to convert from centimetres to inches for the calcuation, which is essential as all mouse sensitivities are rated in Dots per Inch. With a conversion to inches, you would need a sensitivity of 1600dpi, not 640. Then, factor in that my inch per 360 is a quarter of what yours is - and you can quickly see where the pixel skipping and need for high DPI comes in ;)

<< Comment #801 @ 01:01 UTC, 19 December 2006 >>

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m1ndphuq - Reply to #757

doh! I knew I was overlooking something stupid.

<< Comment #722 @ 06:41 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #705

If you don't throw the mouse around too fast then you're not going to be affected by the top speeds. That means you'd be ok with a laser mouse that has 2000 DPI. Personally I'd stick with a 1600DPI optical mouse - either the MX518 or the Diamondback/Krait.

<< Comment #706 @ 19:38 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

xoji

Really interesting old articles here that i found on here about logitech, specifically aimed at their mx range.

Logitech Drivers & Tweaking by impulse.

The truth about MX mice

The cold, hard facts about MX Mice

Edited by willow at 19:43 UTC, 14 December 2006

<< Comment #708 @ 22:55 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (c-69-255-159-202.hsd1.md.comcast.net) - Reply to #706

Thanks for the links. It's nice to see why 800dpi doesn't work right on my MX500.

-Ben

<< Comment #711 @ 23:13 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #706

Wow that guy knew that the negative acceleration was a direct result of the 8 bit data path back in 2003. How come it wasn't talked about? I know people have always wondered about the negative acceleration on these mouse, but it was a simple case of overclocking the port to fix.

<< Comment #726 @ 13:36 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #711

If you ask me, it was talked about. I know I knew, when I had an MX500 some years ago, why its top speed was limited - and eventually there was a fix for it as well (other than using 400dpi).

Edit: ESR can't take characters like – (em-dash), apparently.

Edited by Ezku at 13:37 UTC, 15 December 2006

<< Comment #731 @ 16:34 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #726

It's the function I use to make safe text for output:

function sr_display ($text)
{
return htmlspecialchars($text, ENT_QUOTES);
}

I guess I could write a more forgiving version by parsing manually.

<< Comment #732 @ 16:35 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #726

I didn't see any discussion of it on the long thread where there was a poll asking about overclocking ports.

<< Comment #763 @ 01:45 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

reslox - Reply to #732

Erk and Raziel know their stuff and made several posts about the issue. Browse through some of their 2004/5 posts if u have the time. I'd link u but i haven't the will to trawl through old comments :(

<< Comment #707 @ 20:08 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (cpe-65-31-33-198.woh.res.rr.com)

why did you RATE the Zboard Mouse ? z REAPER

~ aimology

<< Comment #710 @ 23:11 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (wuw-d0g6qiwa.dybb.com)

Hi,
Looks like you really know your way around mouse benchmarking. However, I have to bring up one subject that might have been missed. Can you tell me if mouse lag varies from one mouse to another? That is, when you move the mouse, how long does it take to reflect that movement on screen? Maybe it is worth investigating.

I do a lot of gaming on a lot of different computers with several different mice. I have noticed that a big difference that crops up is the response time that I perceive from mouse input. Perhaps it has something to do with display technology, or other things in the system. But i would go so far as to say that laggy input/output makes more difference to my gaming experience than mouse DPI or accuracy.

Regardless of whether the mouse is the culprit or not, I think it would be a revelation for many FPS gamers and certainly worthwhile to expose sources of I/O lag in a feature article here.

As a case in point, I have grown suspicious lately that my plasma HDTV screen introduces a 10-20 ms lag to display output. Such a small delay is unnoticed during movie watching and normal PC usage, but is markedly detrimental to FPS gaming.

Another example - my cordless logitech mouse appears to introduce a huge lag to the system.

On another PC, I have a Dell bundled OEM PS/2 ball mouse hooked up along side a Creative Fatality 1010. But, astonishingly, I prefer the ball mouse because it seems to have a significantly shorter lag. Could it be a USB bus issue?

Finally, I would like to share a simple trick I use to make input/output lag more obvious. I put my head down next to my arm and close one eye, and stick my finger up so that I can see my mouse cursor and my finger at the same time, then I wave the mouse back and forth. Then, I can see very plainly any disconnect between the motion of my finger and the on-screen response. Oh, and turning sensitivity all the way up helps too.

Thanks for listening! Give me a shout back at matt.montag at no spam gmail.com.

Matt

<< Comment #712 @ 23:17 UTC, 14 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #710

Matt,

I think you're spot on. The latency on mouse really kills the performance and messes up aiming in fps games. It's really hard to measure it well because you have to synchronise what the mouse is physically doing to what you're seeing on the PC as a result. Since a latency of 10 ms is quite high, you have to be very precise in any measurements.

I'm planning a test where the mousepad is moved back and forth at a fixed length but with the speed of the back/forth motion adjustable. So at the top speed it would be a wild rocking of the pad, hopefully at speeds high enough to push the sensors to their limits (around 20-30G).

I can synch up the motion to the result by using the light beam breaking trick again. Just have a sensor that reads when the table i in the central position on each bit of motion.

It'll be a lot tougher to set this up but there might be very interesting results. Particularly it would be nice to do a benchmark on latency and find the cordless mouse that has the least latency (and hence best for gaming).

<< Comment #714 @ 00:12 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (74-134-231-59.dhcp.insightbb.com)

I personally don't think that Copperhead test is representative of all Copperheads. A friend of mine and myself both own a Copperhead and they perform great. I use 800 DPI and 1.5 sensitivity in Counter Strike 1.6/Source with Windows sensitivity set right in the middle. Acceleration is off of course. I have no problems at all. One of my other friends, however, at the very same settings, has lots of skipping when you move the mouse fast. And its tracking is also very poor.

<< Comment #715 @ 00:26 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #714

same firmware? same mouse pad?

<< Comment #727 @ 13:52 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Ezku - Reply to #714

There've been a few reports of this already. One thing that could make up for the distinction is the mouse pad. What are you two using?

<< Comment #728 @ 13:53 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

crea* - Reply to #714

Try your mouse+pad on his pc to see if it is the copperhead or smth else

Edited by crea* at 13:54 UTC, 15 December 2006

<< Comment #720 @ 06:06 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (CPE0014851873e2-CM000f9f7c59e2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)

One of the best articles I've ever read.
Thanks Sujoy, looks like I'll be getting a mx518 pretty soon.

<< Comment #721 @ 06:26 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (ppp21-119.adsl.forthnet.gr)

Can you include Razer Diamondback Plasma Edition ?
It has a different sensor IR I think.

<< Comment #723 @ 06:41 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #721

I'll definitely try to get hold of one, although I believe the Krait I tested was an IR sensor but of the same generation as the Diamondback.

<< Comment #729 @ 15:29 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #723

DB Plasma and Krait use the same sensor so the results should be the same.

<< Comment #730 @ 16:34 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (195.38.23.41) - Reply to #723

Sujoy - great work!
Guys i think so result for 510 has been identical whit MX500.
This mouses use simular sensor
http://www.mstarmetro.net/~rlowens/OpticalMouse/

1%

<< Comment #733 @ 16:57 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess

Okay I got my old mx500 plugged in and I'm going to test oc'ing the usb port.

<< Comment #737 @ 17:58 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #733

HAHA! It works like a charm! 1000Hz and amazing control and speed. <3<3<3<3 Got some hyperglides on it aswell. Im so excited :)

<< Comment #742 @ 00:09 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #733

I opened it up and removed the extra weight inside ;), so now my mx500 is lighter. I'm woundering what drivers to use tho (currently I have mouseware 9.80 with mwadvanced utility). usbport at 1000Hz and cpl registry patch to remove accel. I cant find mx500 at the logitech site, and it also says that mouseware 9.80 is for mx510 only.

<< Comment #743 @ 00:23 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #742

After searching for a while I found a driver called "mw9791enu.exe". Is this the one I should use with mx500?

<< Comment #751 @ 11:50 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #743

That's the one I was using.

<< Comment #744 @ 00:29 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Ezku - Reply to #742

9.80 works perfectly for MX500 as I recall.

<< Comment #746 @ 01:57 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #744

well I have had some bugs in quake3 where mouse1 did not respond when I pressed it, or even sometimes got stuck (constant fire). Im gonna try that other mousewareversion and see if it helps.

<< Comment #749 @ 06:32 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #746

It did not help. However, when playing cs I did not notice anything wrong.

<< Comment #755 @ 23:00 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #749

yep. seems the problem occurs in quake3 only. mouse1 sometime locks down, and sometimes it does not react at all. mouse4 and mouse3 stopped working all together.

<< Comment #759 @ 01:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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13m3 - Reply to #755

As far as I know, the cause to that problem is the 1000Hz USB rate, use 500Hz and problem solved (even because MX500 doesn't get 1000 anyway, and sujoy himself suggests 500Hz for that mouse too)

<< Comment #764 @ 03:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #759

What do you mean it does not get 500Hz? It shows 1000Hz on my readings.

<< Comment #765 @ 04:08 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

13m3 - Reply to #764

Well, I think you're wrong because I remember reading that MX 300 / 500 can't go past 500Hz, but that doesn't really matters.

Try 500Hz @ Q3 and I think your problems will be solved.

Edited by GzUz at 04:10 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #766 @ 04:15 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #765

I think its your usb port that cant do 1000Hz tbh. Maby I'll try 500Hz anyway. Would like to know what results sujoy got on 500Hz.

<< Comment #770 @ 04:48 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #766

okay. I tried 500Hz and I felt the difference right away. The negative accel seemed to be doubled as oposed to 1000Hz. At 500Hz I could just aswell play with mx518.

<< Comment #771 @ 04:52 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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13m3 - Reply to #766

No it's not my USB port. I didn't mention that I was having any problem or that MY mouse wouldn't go past 500Hz, I said MX 300 / 500 (any of them at any computer)

<< Comment #779 @ 13:01 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

Burpy - Reply to #755

I have a Logitech G7 & had the same problem in Quake3. Someone suggested using the command in_mouse -1

I put it in my autoexec.cfg (seta in_mouse -1) & the mis-clicks & constant firing went away. Worth a try.

Edited by fumoffu at 13:01 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #787 @ 22:20 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #779

what does it do?

<< Comment #788 @ 23:07 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #787

Turns off direct input

1%

<< Comment #792 @ 23:11 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #788

thanks

<< Comment #790 @ 23:10 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #787

in_mouse -1 = forces quake 3 to use windows mouse handling

<< Comment #800 @ 23:05 UTC, 18 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #779

okay now I need help again. After switching to in_mouse "-1" my mouse 4/5 stopped working. I tried switching it back to in_mouse "1", but it wont go back. It says in_mouse = "-1" default = "1"
latched "1"... I restart things and it wont switch. yes, I removed it from autoexec.

<< Comment #806 @ 17:23 UTC, 20 December 2006 >>

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By

Burpy - Reply to #800

type in_mouse 1 in console, hit enter.

type in_restart in the console, hit enter & it should be back to 1.

1%

<< Comment #754 @ 19:44 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #733

hm. only minus with this mouse is that it's really heavy, I removed the weight inside it, but its still quite heavy compared to mx510. Anyone know a way of lightening the weight even more?

<< Comment #767 @ 04:23 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #754

Looks like I owned myself. I measured their weight and mx500 (removed extra weight), mx510 and mx518 are indentical at 110g.

Edited by z0uLess at 04:32 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #789 @ 23:08 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #767

Still way too heavy :<

<< Comment #791 @ 23:11 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #789

I agree. But I dont have an mx300 ;), and I have big hands.

<< Comment #793 @ 23:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ini - Reply to #791

Jamerio it and drill holes in it to reduce the weight!!!!!!!!!. Shame they are so heavy and have horrid shape for me as the sensor is really nice and responsive is comparison to DB/WMO (Have the mx510 plugged in by ps/2 with 200hz hack)

<< Comment #734 @ 17:28 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

MAKO

I didnt read all the comments so apologise if this has been cleared up already.

What tested mouse is my mx510 equivalent too? if it helps the max usb rate mine can reach is 450hz...

<< Comment #752 @ 11:51 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #734

I haven't tested the MX510 so it's hard to say. Hopefully Logitech will send the samples soon.

<< Comment #738 @ 18:13 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Crunch*

Great article Sujoy.
Currently using an MX500@500 which is fine, but I just tried an MS HAbu in the shop today and must say I really like the feel and the sidebutton placement. Looking at your graph, it seems to be doing similar to the MX500@125. Is this true? (since I was using my mx500 fine like that until recently)

<< Comment #740 @ 21:10 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

OMRomero

When using my Logitech MX510 and 1000hz poll rate, it jumps everywhere. I turned it down to 500hz and the average was much better. Does the MX500 jump around as much at 1000hz as I am experiencing with the MX510?

<< Comment #741 @ 00:05 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #740

Jump around? It follows my arm movement perfectly.

<< Comment #745 @ 00:31 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #741

He's referring to the poll rate.

<< Comment #739 @ 20:26 UTC, 15 December 2006 >>

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By

Crunch*

Did you test the Habu with the 2.01 firmware?
Microsoft Habu Driver/Firmware v2.01
Release log:
1. Fixed bug where mouse was stuck at the 125hz polling rate
07 Dec 2006 03:15 AM

<< Comment #758 @ 23:53 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #739

increasing hz has no impact on maximum speed/perfect control, that's why there is no graph.

I have the Habu myself, flashed with Copperhead Firmware (due to the 125-hz-lock you mentioned, which got fixed now) @ 1000 hz and it's totally unenjoyable. It's fine for people with high sensitivity, but not for me.

<< Comment #747 @ 02:53 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (static-213-115-175-18.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se)

Best test ever!

1. I look forward to the latency test! Can't wait. Wireless junk will be sorted out at last.

2. Please also measure the latency when the mouse is attached through a keyboard with usb-hub. Does it have any measurable negative impact?

3. Also test through a ps2-adapter. Does it minimize latency or jitter?

1%

<< Comment #748 @ 06:24 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (cpe-071-071-042-232.triad.res.rr.com)

Thank you

<< Comment #750 @ 11:47 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (76.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es)

Nice work Sujoy.

Could you review too

'a4tech X7 Gaming X-718F - (Optical 2000 DPI)'

and

'a4tech X7 Gaming X-750BF - (Laser 2500 DPI)' ?

That would be awesome. Thanks.

<< Comment #753 @ 13:23 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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By

Granis

Great review!

For future tests it would be interesting if you could include the vertical range of the mice. That is how high you can lift them before they loose perfect control, and even more important, how high you need to lift them to stop them from tracking completely.

I'm using a fairly high sense which means that most movements done are pretty small. This includes how high up I lift the mouse when I need to reposition it. Now with my current Mx510 this is causing some problems since it's still tracking quite high above the mouse pad. It forces me to either lift the mouse higher than I want, or live with the distortion.

<< Comment #756 @ 23:50 UTC, 16 December 2006 >>

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malum - Reply to #753

yup, that would be nice

<< Comment #760 @ 01:28 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ouroboro

"Malfunction Speed" is the reason I retired my MX500 to the desk drawer and bought an MX518.

Despite the claims of this or any other test, I'm giving you all fair warning: Do NOT rush out and buy an MX500.

My primary game is Enemy Territory, which doesn't require nearly the flick speeds of Quake, yet I would turn to face an enemy and my crosshair would go completely spastic. I'd hate to see all you Quakers buy the MX500 because of this test, only to be horribly disappointed. It was a great mouse in most regards, and was among the top mouses of it's day, but that one flaw was a fatal one.

If you're leaning towards an MX500, do yourselves a favor and get the MX518. Or, pending the addition of the MX510 data, opt for that instead. It's been a while since I've read up on those mouses, but IIRC the MX510 fixed the flaws of the MX500 which caused the malfunction speed problems.

You have been warned!

<< Comment #761 @ 01:35 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

cumrag - Reply to #760

MAKE SENSES

<< Comment #784 @ 22:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #761

Assuming you're implicating that I got it wrong, the correct plural form of the pointing device is "mouses," not "mice."

<< Comment #839 @ 00:44 UTC, 1 January 2007 >>

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mew - Reply to #784

in fact they are both perfectly correct.

and to comment on your negative opinions about mx500, im afraid you had something lacking. the mx300/mx500 sensor is infact faster than an average human hand.

you need to have the USB @ 500hz or more to get that 3.91 m/s perfect control and malfunction speed. and even if you have the USB high enough, if you have lots of processes on, your USB might not give the mouse full 500hz, and as a result you get skipping. (happens if i for example host a dedicated CPMA server on normal priority and then play on it with another client on high priority)

it is _NOT_ the fault of the mouse that YOU had skipping.

<< Comment #861 @ 13:28 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #839

I wasn't aware you were in the room with me when it would happen, or that you were privy to my PC configuration.

I can assure you, it _WAS_ the mouse at fault.

<< Comment #862 @ 14:05 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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mew - Reply to #861

if everyone else but you gets the 3.91 m/s wouldnt that indicate that either YOU did something wrong or the mouse was just broken? and on a sidenote, ET doesnt use Direct Input, so that might be a part of it aswell.

Edited by mew at 14:09 UTC, 9 January 2007

<< Comment #863 @ 14:46 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #862

Perhaps my MX500 is flawed. My intelligence, and the ability to use it objectively, is not.

DI had no bearing on this particular issue, as I used the mouse in Q3 as well (on the rare occasions I played it), and in_mouse -1/1 were both afflicted. I prefer not to use DI for other reasons, but I did test it as a possible solution at the time. No dice.

Edited by oRo at 14:54 UTC, 9 January 2007

<< Comment #864 @ 15:31 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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mew - Reply to #863

then the mouse indeed must have been flawed. however, this is not a reason to blame the mouse in general and warn people about its flaws, when the flaws were because of a faulty individual product.

<< Comment #865 @ 16:39 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #864

I said "perhaps," not "definitely," and I said it mainly to shut you up.

As far as I'm concerned, the MX500 itself is flawed, not just my individual unit, as it performed normally in every other regard.

Warning people of my experience was a benevolent act. You can take it or leave it.

Edited by oRo at 16:44 UTC, 9 January 2007

<< Comment #762 @ 01:40 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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hughJ - Reply to #760

What mouse pad were you using? Cause I've never had or heard of major tracking problems from the MX300/500, aside from buffer overrun issues causing the truncation of data (the "negative accel" problem.)

Edited by hughJ at 01:41 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #785 @ 22:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #762

Several, including cloth (typical generic pad), plastic (both a hard plastic RatPadzGS and a thinner, more modern XTrac Hammer), and a black Icemat2. Regarding the latter, I also had problems with perspiration and condensation causing tracking problems with the MX500, but that's another issue. The malfunction issue occurred on all the above pad types.

<< Comment #769 @ 04:30 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #760

I've been playing with mx518 and went back to my mx500 after reading this. I would say to people playing professionally, you might want to stick with mx518 because it performs better on a default 125Hz usb port. So when you go to lans you can play on tournament computers. As for the question of performance, the mx500 feels great!

<< Comment #786 @ 22:16 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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ouroboro - Reply to #769

I tried 1000hz with the MX500, and was nearly able to maintain it, but not quite, so I went down to 500hz. I also use 500hz with the MX518. Again, the MX500 was great insofar as tracking (except on cool glass which tends to form condensation from body heat), but the malfunctioning forced me to retire it. YMMV, I'm just giving a heads up based on my experience.

<< Comment #768 @ 04:26 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ini

My mx510 appears to run at 400dpi without drivers, which might suggest it has the same sensor as the mx500/300 but with the 12bit datapath....

<< Comment #772 @ 06:10 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

z0uLess

The razer deathadder has been spotted at cpl winter!... check out this video: http://www.fragbite.com/?fileID=2410 (needs login). "DeathAdder och snabba rörelser: ingen bra relation" translates to "DeathAdder and fast movements does not go very well together"

<< Comment #780 @ 13:15 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #772

I could so strangle the dev that's responsible for this.

<< Comment #796 @ 00:24 UTC, 18 December 2006 >>

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hughJ - Reply to #772

Sigh... yes.. the video shows him swiping the mouse, and it doesn't track properly. :(

Fucking companies are so bent on making products that *sound* high performance for the sake of marketing, that it actually takes precedence over real performance.

<< Comment #797 @ 05:37 UTC, 18 December 2006 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #772

could you upload to google or youtube?

<< Comment #798 @ 08:34 UTC, 18 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #797

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3507847953493442223

4%

<< Comment #773 @ 06:46 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (c-24-20-144-176.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)

Curious - why no infrared sensors? Razer now has at least 3 models that use an infrared LED and sensor pair to track movement:

* Diamondback Acid Green
* Diamondback Plasma Blue
* Krait

...I'd be interested to see how the 1600dpi infrared LED + sensor set works, especially given how much of a dud the 2000dpi laser sensors are turning out to be.

<< Comment #774 @ 07:09 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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ini - Reply to #773

http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=9

<< Comment #781 @ 14:59 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

unihumi

hmm, why didn't you overlock the diamondback (and other mice) to 1000hz?

€: okay okay I got it. Increasing hz has no impact on maximum speed/perfect control. But would you recommend me to overclock each mouse to at least 500hz?

Edited by unHuman at 15:03 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #783 @ 22:10 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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Ezku - Reply to #781

I would, yes, if only for the snappyness it gives.

<< Comment #782 @ 19:27 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

melachi '

Sujoy, how about getting hold of the Saitek GM 3200, it claims 3200 dpi - laser mouse.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SAITEK-GM3200-laser-Gam...dZViewItem

"The world’s 1st 3200 dpi laser mouse features superb ergonomicsfor hours of fatigue-free use; up to 3200 dpi for ultra high mouse speed
and accuracy."

Edited by melachi at 19:28 UTC, 17 December 2006

<< Comment #794 @ 23:27 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

ouroboro

It would have been preferable to see the results of 500hz rather than 1000hz. For most mouses, 1000hz is rarely attainable and nearly always unstable. I found this to be true of the MX500, although I don't recall my exact results (I believe it was ~800 unstable). That's better than any other mouse I've had (including Logitech and Razer products), but 500hz stable is still the more sensible option, and a better real-world test, IMO. I know I personally wished for 500hz results in your test.

Also, I know you didn't have an MX510 on-hand, but do consider testing it if you can get hold of one. If the MX510 performs on-par with the MX500 when both are tested @ 500hz, and if those results are still better than the MX518, the MX510 would be the clear winner, since the MX510 engine featured some noteworthy (and desirable) upgrades over that of the MX500.

As to the DPI of the MX300/500/510, this is a driver issue, IIRC.

<< Comment #795 @ 23:43 UTC, 17 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (63-228-162-148.cdrr.qwest.net)

I don't know if your setup included this, but are the mice equally responsive x-y, x and y? Might be something to look at a few if its worth looking at.

<< Comment #799 @ 12:15 UTC, 18 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (i-195-137-69-217.freedom2surf.net)

I would like to see comparions between wired, wirelessm ie the different types of wireless radio infrared etc.

Also, is there a difference with responses between usb and ps2? in my mind i've always prefered a ps2 mouse, am i going mad? same with keyboards, or is it just i feel like theres to much usb going on!

<< Comment #803 @ 00:11 UTC, 20 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (bas8-toronto12-1088940840.dsl.bell.ca)

Interesting approach of testing mice. It would be a interesting to determine dynamic and static friction numbers on 3 different surfaces (wooden table, high-end pad and a third one). Just attach a force indicator pull the mice over the surfaces.

<< Comment #804 @ 00:23 UTC, 20 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (84-73-42-45.dclient.hispeed.ch)

plz test the G5 or G7 also with lower DPI values. this should result in a better speed preformence. (Heisenberg uncertainty relation)

<< Comment #807 @ 00:50 UTC, 21 December 2006 >>

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By

Crunch*

After reading your test, I went out and got the A4tech X7 X-718BF to replace my MX500. Very cheap and handles extremely well. Turned dpi down from 2000 to 1600 and set it at 4. notch in windows, UT sens at 1,2. No skipping so far and very nice feel to it ingame. Using a Nova Killer pad.

<< Comment #808 @ 03:35 UTC, 21 December 2006 >>

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By

ensiferum2k

ESReality.com is an International site, so all non-English postings are removed. Do not use obscene language, or post abusive/inflammatory comments. Read the posting guidelines for more information.

<< Comment #809 @ 16:22 UTC, 21 December 2006 >>

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By

prs

Great write up. I wish this was up before I bought this POS MS Laser 6000. Figured Id try a laser mouse after my ms blue broke a while ago and its been terrible from the start. I was wondering why it performed so poorly at low sens and why it was bugging when i had to flick shot or even semi fast movements. This article explained it well and gave me a good idea of what to get instead.

<< Comment #810 @ 03:13 UTC, 24 December 2006 >>

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By

Fryght

Got myself a Logitech G3 just now, it's very nice :)

<< Comment #811 @ 08:35 UTC, 24 December 2006 >>

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By

dzjepp

sujoy are you saying for medium-sens players 800dpi would be better than the highest? for instance if i tend to use medium sens would it be better to use 800dpi on a mx518 than use 1600dpi?

<< Comment #827 @ 00:49 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #811

No difference whatsoever. Either the mouse scales it down, or the software scales it down. You won't notice any difference.

The only situation where changing DPI might be useful is when the software doesn't scale it enough (e.g. the slider bars don't go far enough) or you want to change res quickly but the software doesn't let you bind a sens change.

<< Comment #812 @ 23:45 UTC, 25 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (GMKDCCCXXII.dsl.saunalahti.fi)

Are you going to test razer deathadder when it's released?

<< Comment #813 @ 07:07 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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By

ted

i am getting that now with my 2020, had it for about 2 weeks

<< Comment #814 @ 08:32 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (adsl-70-241-133-65.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)

Sujoy nice review but I think your professional approach without regard for latency and many many other mouse factors has made this article the most popular mislead about mice ever published(while it is also the most outstanding(in a good way) review of mice ever in history). First of all, mouse handling at high speed is hardly the most important factor(I think response at used speeds it a better indication). I suppose you hit 50% of gamers for you arm aimers out there(prolly less than 50 cmon most noobs are not arm aimers). I mean this article seems to be very biased from your point of view which you have gained from the knowledge you read in this site. I also think number of buttons is weighed a bit heavily. I mean who really needs the extra buttons as a pro the keyboard is always right there. Also its not necessary to test latency from the screen there are too many variables in that equation anyway. Youd have to take tweaking the computer and monitor into context. No you just need a good electronics engineer and a programmer so you can fix an adapter before it hits the usb port and another lead attached to the button circuit and then a way to test the latency for the button and maybe some way to capture usb data and be able to figure out direction changes on the mouse for movement latency(this one would be really fn hard, maybe setup a sensor in the turntable facing up on the other side with something fixed hanging above it for it to give you a signal and integrating that with usb timed capture data, youd have to use scratching motions and also factor in the latency of the sensors in the table(maybe the manufacturer will tell you at the very least you can use it as a fixed point for comparison and it would have to be overclocked as well)), and from what ive seen in your turntable timing maybe you have the skills to do this. Also why dont you just be nice to the noobs and tell them about overclocking usb(its usb sample rate increase, dont be mean to raziel even tho he is one of those coding aholes us gamers tend to dislike). I think the only way to game is with oced usb and I think most gamers will agree with that(maybe this will get those usb standards guys on the right track). Also why did you provide an mx500 1000hz graph but not an mx518 1000hz graph(I don't have either of these mice), or maybe graphs with standardized x and y for comparison I think you should do layered graphs of all the usb oc settings much the way tom hardware does(except without all the selling out to whoever pays them). Also wouldn't sensor placement under the plaming surface be a great factor(I know thats what makes the mx1000 the worst mouse I've ever touched). Also I think ergonomics are another great factor which far outweighs even resolution(I mean cmon all you have to do is up your sensitivity, also i dont think mouse dpi translates into performance the way you have portrayed it, the translation into screen pixels and the screen being the bottleneck(not sure what screen you were referring to)). Really for a revision 1 this is pretty gd good and its about time someone did something like this and i commend your work so far(now I wish someone would do it for routers, "residential gateways", switches, and modems). So in closing, I suggest you put this into a more real life how i did this context(like defining malfunction speed as what you saw on your pc not what how you define it as the definition for the urban dictionary) instead of this is the end all of mouse reviews approach.

P.S. How did you get the turn table to give the same speed for each mouse since the each mouse and its sensor placement is different. I mean you would have to be allot more precise with placing the sensor on that turntable than just placing every mouse in the same armature(you prolly took this into consideration just wondering how you did it). If you didn't, maybe you should pull the sensors out and line them up that way or draw a line on the mouse then using your armature draw a perfect circle on the turntable by turning some kind of pen around it then doing the circle math for the actual speed. Maybe a pot(varistor) on the turntable as well for more than 3 testspeeds since you already have the optical sensor determining actual speed.

P.S.S Maybe an engineering approach is a better way to rate mice. Lets look at the parts Sensor definitely by far the most important, sensor + internals = latency, chasis = ergonomics/weight, button response times maybe( prolly too over technical but then again so is mouse latency which is very important). Honestly now that gaming is the second most famous accuracy sport(behind golf, well at least in money). I think we need to get logitech to build robotic arms for testing like the golf club companies do( but would you trust their results?). Isn't the world of computers great. : )

<< Comment #815 @ 11:21 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #814

You sure write alot for a guy who didnt bother to get an account. Ever heard the expression quality over quantity? Some of the questions you asked has allready been answered. Take some time to read instead.

<< Comment #828 @ 01:02 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #814

Hard to pick out all the stuff that wants answering but I'll try.

I only included graphs of different USB polling rates when the results were different. The important thing to note is that changing the USB polling rate has only one effect on the response graph. That is explicitly to 'cure' the 8-bit data path on some mice.

So specifically the ONLY mice affected by polling rate are those that have an 8-bit data path:
- Microsoft: WMO, IE3.0, Laser6k
- Logitech: MX300, MX500

All the other mice are not affected by USB polling on the response graph. I probably should have made this more clear.

Regarding turntable speeds - I did not have only 3 speeds! Infact it would have been impossible to plot any of the graphs without a continuous range of speeds! I used a variable voltage power supply in conjunction with the preset speeds to cover the whole range of useful speeds.

Regarding creating layered graphs, I did a few originally but the difference in DPI meant that you could only see details in the very high DPI mice. The 400 DPI mice were just a shallow line near the axis. I considered normalising graphs by the resolution of the mouse but never got that finished. It's something to do for the future.

Regarding finding the radius. I did it the obvious way :). That was get a ruler and measure the distance. It was obviously two separate measurements added together - the distance from sensor to the top of the mouse, and then from the top of the mouse (once placed onto the turntable) to the centre of the turntable. I included the error of measurement (+/- 1mm) in the determination of the DPI but I didn't include the errors in the end as most of the mice were spot on the resolution that they were meant to be. The only exceptions were the MX300/MX500 (which there is apparently a software fix needed) and also the Fatal1ty 2020 which came out higher than expected.

As for bias, well the whole point of the article was to create a review that looked at ONLY measurable factors as anything else is subjective and is only useful if you have the same opinions as the reviewer. I do agree that the final scoring is subjective however since I had to decide how to weight each of the measurable factors. The reason I did it was that everyone who proof read the article told me it was missing a conclusion. Readers demand a final table with a single score for the mouse, to rank them. I would have happily left just the 4 different scoring factors there and let the reader make up their own mind, but I was told that readers don't like doing that :).

<< Comment #830 @ 10:22 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #828

I want your autograph.

<< Comment #816 @ 22:33 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (catv-56655a8e.catv.broadband.hu)

Can anybody give me any informations about this mouse? Does it really have an excellent sensor, figure and structure?

<< Comment #817 @ 22:56 UTC, 26 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #816

There are 17 mice reviewed in this article, which one are you interested in?

<< Comment #819 @ 00:19 UTC, 27 December 2006 >>

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By

luKrek

Metric system all the way please... Or make two versions >_<

<< Comment #820 @ 02:21 UTC, 27 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (a81-84-31-156.cpe.netcabo.pt)

Sujoy, are you going to test the Razer DeathAdder? when?! :D

<< Comment #821 @ 02:53 UTC, 27 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #820

Razer haven't got any finished DeathAdders yet. The ones at CPL were pre-release without the final sensor. As soon as there is one available they have promised to send it over.

<< Comment #825 @ 00:43 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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By

gk_nz - Reply to #821

So in other words we shouldn't take much from the response in that video that was posted recently?

<< Comment #826 @ 00:47 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #825

That's what I've been told at least. Apparently the DeathAdder will be available to test next week although I don't know how long it will take to ship.

<< Comment #843 @ 06:18 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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Anonymous (pool-71-103-121-30.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) - Reply to #826

Some people have already received their DeathAdders - I eagerly await it's addition to this article.

<< Comment #845 @ 12:46 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #843

I've been told its shipped.

<< Comment #822 @ 01:03 UTC, 28 December 2006 >>

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By

dzjepp

Hey sujoy can you answer my question a little bit above. Thanks! :)

<< Comment #824 @ 23:59 UTC, 28 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (pool-71-103-109-146.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

You need to write a Mousepad comparison article, and measure kinetic/static friction coefficients for comparison :P

<< Comment #829 @ 01:05 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #824

I've had so much to do over the last 3 weeks unfortunately. I definitely want to test mousepads but first I need to do a simple initial step of checking the obvious. That is: does the mousepad make any difference at all to response.

For example if a regular $0.10 bit of scrap cloth tracks as well as a top of the range pro-gaming $30 mouse surface then there's hardly any need for me to spend a month testing every mouse surface in existance because I won't get any meaningful results from it. Well that is except increasing the sale of scrap cloth maybe.

<< Comment #833 @ 08:48 UTC, 30 December 2006 >>

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Anonymous (pool-71-103-124-224.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) - Reply to #829

There is a world of difference between my free Verizon mousepad and a random hard plastic pad I got in terms of tracking. Even if there was no difference in tracking, I'd be interested in such an article just to see how pads compare in terms of smoothness, friction, etc.

Also, I'd just like to comment that I think your conclusions are too biased towards low-sens users. For a high sens user such as myself (180-240 degrees/inch), I will never move my mouse 2 m/s, but the extra DPI does help me increase precision.

<< Comment #834 @ 10:28 UTC, 30 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #833

I think I mentioned somewhere else that I didn't really want to make absolute conclusions because like you say it's dependent on the sensitivity you play with. But there are all the graphs available to show top speed and dpi so anyone can draw their own conclusions from those too. I was thinking about making two final scores, one for low sens (where top speed is important) and one for high sens (where dpi is important).

<< Comment #835 @ 15:17 UTC, 30 December 2006 >>

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Helier - Reply to #834

Good mouse review...I would also like to see a mouse mat review, as I've been using the InteliMouse Optical (as far as i know its exactly the same as the WMO 1.1a but with more buttons(can anyone confirm its the same stuff inside?)) for about 5 years (got through about 7 of them) and am a high sensitivity user. So need a mouse pad thats ultra smooth so the mouse doesn't make an jerks or has any stickiness/friction to the pad.

Also question regarding the usb overclockering.

Will overclocking the USB change all USB ports? I take it it does, and if so will it have any effect on other usb devices? external hdds etc?

Looking forward to see a deathadder review as the extra dpi as high sensitivity user should be good? ...

<< Comment #836 @ 15:18 UTC, 30 December 2006 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #835

The USB tool linked on the page above lets you chose the socket to clock. Otherwise, yes, you might affect other USB devices.

<< Comment #841 @ 12:43 UTC, 2 January 2007 >>

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montheponies - Reply to #829

I got the habu just before xmas (diamondback's usb cable went tits up)...anyway i'm a low-mid sensitivity player, and on a black icemat it would lose tracking at moderate speed, on a black ratzpad it faired better.

bought an everglide titan and it's somewhere in between the icemat and ratzpad...i'm sending that back and now waiting for the steelpad 5L as i've been told that it works well with laser mice....

my point being that there seems to be a world of difference between surfaces so the inclusion of mouse surfaces suited to the type of mouse (laser/optical), would definitely be worthwhile.

btw awesome work m8 :)

<< Comment #832 @ 16:16 UTC, 29 December 2006 >>

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By

Nat_Suzuki

Why did they use A4 Tech X7 X-710BF instead of X-750F?? It's newer and has 2500DPI. I would buy it but I've never seem a test with it. =//

<< Comment #837 @ 00:51 UTC, 31 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (203-173-52-244.dyn.iinet.net.au)

IME 3.0 doesn't come FIRST? Blasphemy!

<< Comment #838 @ 11:31 UTC, 31 December 2006 >>

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By

Anonymous (87.97.121.38)

Hi!
I would like to know, what's the difference between the intelimouse optical, and the wheelmouse optical?

<< Comment #840 @ 16:47 UTC, 1 January 2007 >>

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By

BooTes

Hmmm nice nice, but will they blend? :-D

<< Comment #842 @ 23:38 UTC, 2 January 2007 >>

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z0uLess - Reply to #840

I bet they will!

<< Comment #844 @ 11:26 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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By

msoltyspl

I have a small question regarding a4tech X7 mouse - can that triple something button be reprogrammed to act as a normal button, or be mapped to some key ?

<< Comment #846 @ 13:42 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (88.118.243.22)

In the article it was said that G1 and some others could not be overclocked...

This is bullshit.
My G1 runs at 500 Hz.

They can't find the proper ovreclock tool - their problem.

<< Comment #848 @ 16:51 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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cumrag - Reply to #846

understand english since read comprehension

<< Comment #852 @ 11:11 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #846

No... I said that overclocking the G1 made no change to the response graph.

Overclocking the mouse may effect the latency, but what I found was that it did not effect the response to speed. The only mice that were affected by overclocking were those with limited data paths.

<< Comment #856 @ 04:30 UTC, 6 January 2007 >>

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Anonymous (88.118.136.30) - Reply to #852

So the G1 showed the same results both with default 125 Hz and 500 Hz?

That's what you wanted to say?
There is no need to overclock?

<< Comment #857 @ 15:41 UTC, 6 January 2007 >>

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Sujoy - Reply to #856

Yes overclocking doesn't change how the mouse responds to speed.

It may change other things that I was unable to measure (e.g. mouse latency).

<< Comment #847 @ 15:24 UTC, 4 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (tm.net.my)

No BS article with all the facts down, dude, your hard work is much appreciated... though i'm sure you enjoyed making it. ;p

<< Comment #849 @ 07:53 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

Krooga

I noticed that the tests were always performed at the maximum DPI of the mouse. However, I did some testing of my own, with my MX518, and I found that the perfect control range of the mouse was extended by using a lower DPI. At first I thought this may have been a result of the cursor hitting the edge of the screen on non-DirectInput games, but I got the same results with DirectInput on.

To summarize, at 1600dpi I could lose perfect control with a reasonable amount of effort, at 800dpi it was extremely difficult but doable, and at 400dpi it was simply not possible.

I can't quantify the exact difference it made, but I'd theorize that halving the DPI would double the perfect control range (assuming the malfunction speed is not reached beforehand). This would make sense, since the flat area of the graph suggests that the mouse hardware has reached its limit and is clipping the higher signal. By lowering DPI, you're allowing the mouse's quantized speed values to be spread over a greater range of physical speeds. ie. With DPI halved, you can now 'map' the highest representable speed in the mouse hardware to a physical speed twice as fast.

My tests were fairly rudimentary compared to yours, and I may be missing something, but it seems like this is something you should definitely look into.

Note: I'm assuming the mouse hardware must be the bottleneck in the MX518 since the data path is 16 bit.

<< Comment #853 @ 11:12 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #849

It's been a while so I'll have to retest the MX518 to check if that is the case.

<< Comment #850 @ 09:18 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (74-33-25-176.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net)

You are right, for the mice that experience "clipping" You will extend their range of perfect control just by simply lowering their dpi, as that is less counts per second and less raw data that they have to push through the pipes.

This doesn't have any effect on the max malfunction speed, only a bit of a boost for the mice which have clipping due to a internal limit. So that means, put the G1 on 400dpi and you have it perform almost as well as the MX510 or MX500 did. If you put the MX518 on 800 DPI it wins your comparo and 400dpi would improve it's high speed perfect response to an even greater degree.

So perhaps how you could accommodate this peculiarity is by testing the mice at different dpi and THEN if the results change for it, add it to the final score graph like MX518 (1600dpi), MX518 (800dpi) factoring in the new perfect control speed and new dpi to see where it places. Just like how you showed different results from USB port overclocking. If you automatically pick to run a mouse sensor at it's full dpi precision in mice that have this clipping of negative acceleration you are tuning it for high sensitivity use at the expense of perfect control limits.

<< Comment #887 @ 07:47 UTC, 28 January 2007 >>

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By

ix - Reply to #850

I tried that but in practice it doesn't seem to work. MX518 doesn't perform better at lower DPIs.

As a follow up to reading your article I got an MX500 now that my MX518 is wearing out and you're spot on. The MX500 is an amazing mouse to use, a big stepup from the MX518 for a low sens user.

<< Comment #851 @ 11:04 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

spEEdbird

mew is like mental O_o

<< Comment #858 @ 07:22 UTC, 8 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (74-33-25-176.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net) - Reply to #851

I use lower sensitivity than mew does, but I don't play nearly as fast of a game, I play CS:S.

<< Comment #888 @ 07:47 UTC, 28 January 2007 >>

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By

ix - Reply to #851

You lot using crazy high sens are the mental ones. =P

<< Comment #854 @ 14:06 UTC, 5 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (d54C27EBA.access.telenet.be)

Actually the mx300 and mx500 default to 400 dpi unless they get switched by some driver/program to 800 dpi. On windows, the logitech driver does this, on mac and linux you have to look for one or hack it together yourself. But I assure you, I compared mx500 to cheaper optical mice and when the 800 dpi is switched on, it's ON :)

<< Comment #855 @ 03:02 UTC, 6 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (74-33-25-176.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net)

The 800dpi setting is software simulated and hurts the bandwidth of the mouse I've heard, either way it's worth using if you're a high sensitivity player, but in the advanced mouse ware settings if you pick speed the MX500/MX510 will work at true 400dpi where there is no negative acceleration like seen in this article, had Sujoy tested the mouse at 800dpi it would not have won.

I own both the MX500 and MX510 they both are 400dpi without a driver. And I also can't tell any different in gaming between their sensors, both respond instantly to my fastest movements, even if I intentionally crank the mice faster than I do trying to make a fast 180 turn in CS:S (I use extremely low sensitivity like 35" for a 180 turn)

niether negatively acellerates or malfunctions.

<< Comment #859 @ 00:30 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (122.50.161.44)

Hey, can you please restest the copperhead with 500Hz and 800dpi.

I have trying this combination since couple of days and this is way more accurate and controllable than 2000dpi 500hz or 1000hz.

Regards,
KiD0M4N

<< Comment #860 @ 13:13 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

c1

looking forward of a retest with different dpi resolutions :D

<< Comment #866 @ 19:22 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (12-214-233-54.client.mchsi.com)

Considering Most gamers (high and low sensitivity) don't exceed 2 m/s, what does it matter if the mouse can perform "faster". I doubt that a mouse company would even think about engineering the mouse for speeds faster than what a gamer would need. So a better, more acurate sensor might have a lower malfunction speed, or a lower perfect control, but if goes unoticed, then who would truely be concerned with it?

Also, Laser mice and optical mice work to there potential on different kinds of playing surfaces. Perhaps laser mice didn't like that paticular mouse pad you used as much as the next?

If you read the reviews for the higher performance mice on the market, you'll find that as a whole, they get good reviews.

Why not devise a way to see how smooth the mouse is, like if it jumps a few pixels here and there, or if it keeps true.

That being said, it took a lot of creativity to come up with an expiriment like this. I am looking forward to how the laser mice perform on the different playing surfaces.

<< Comment #867 @ 19:23 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #866

I agree 2m/s is probably sufficient for 99% of gamers. However most of the laser mice can't run at 2m/s, which is a problem. Even the MS WMO and IE3.0, which are much loved by gamers, hit negative acceleration after 1m/s on default polling rates. I think these tests show up a lot of interesting characteristics of gaming mice.

At some point all gaming mice will be sufficiently 'good' that tests like this don't matter at all. However there were enough mice performing badly in this test that I'd like to think it would help people choose a good mouse.

I am working on a different test for accuracy and latency rather than just speed. It's obviously a lot more complex and needs to be very carefully designed and built.

I'm also testing on different surfaces now. I had gotten to the point where I couldn't realistically buy everything and people were taking too long sending out samples. The only way to make manufacturers take any notice was to post this article so that I could show them it was a serious and useful test.

Edited by Sujoy at 19:27 UTC, 9 January 2007

<< Comment #868 @ 20:50 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (balticom-128-27.balticom.lv)

Could you also request a mouse from GWS, www.gamingmouse.com , I would actually buy it if I wasn't told that it has a vastly outdated sensor (even tho the amazing shape and fucntions might overweight it)

<< Comment #870 @ 16:49 UTC, 10 January 2007 >>

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By

m1ndphuq - Reply to #868

weird, I'd love to see that 'thing' get tested too. More so, I'd like to see a vid of someone playing quake or UT with that thing.

<< Comment #869 @ 21:19 UTC, 9 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (12-214-233-54.client.mchsi.com)

But the reason some of the laser mice couldn't run over 2 m/s could be due to the type of playing surface you used.

<< Comment #871 @ 23:27 UTC, 11 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (sproxy3.its.rmit.edu.au)

I think the overall scoring needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

You really just need to work out the maximum rate at which you move your mouse and then get the mouse that has the highest dpi and supports your maximum movement speed with perfect control.

I'd say that most average gamers use small mouse pads and are classified as high sensitivity.

Fantastic report, although I think it's a bit of a stretch to proclaim only one winner. You should have showed which mouse has the highest dpi for each user group

A mouse for the gamer levels you already defined at the very start of the article

For high to medium sensitivity users the best mice in order of DPI are
Creative 2020
Logitech G5 and Microsoft Habu

Then for high sensitivity you could have stated no mouse aimed at at them has been made with high dpi. Although the need for high dpi is greatly reduced at such high motion.
MX500
MX300

<< Comment #872 @ 14:56 UTC, 14 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (oxfd-cache-2.server.ntli.net)

Cool review sujoy, good job, it certainly exposes unexpected weaknesses where it was least expected.

Im just wondering why you didnt review any wireless models - if nothing else just to see if their performance curve is as bad for gaming as a lot of people claim wireless mice are.

<< Comment #873 @ 09:58 UTC, 15 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (213.115.228.62)

Great article! Really nice reading, and very interesting - good job!

<< Comment #874 @ 19:17 UTC, 15 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (87-127-68-178.no-dns-yet.enta.net)

Excellent article! Very well written, with good methodology, charts and explanations. Thank you very much :)

<< Comment #875 @ 16:55 UTC, 20 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (h1119083.serverkompetenz.net)

hey Sujoy,

with regards to post #851, I was wondering if there is any update on the mx518 perfect control range at different dpi settings? Cheers m8.

Sign

<< Comment #876 @ 18:37 UTC, 21 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (e3nc2h7h3i.adsl.datanet.hu)

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/de...8,detail=2
It's says, the mx500 is 800dpi, not 400...

<< Comment #878 @ 21:42 UTC, 21 January 2007 >>

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By

cumrag - Reply to #876

if it said 32000000dpi instead , you would probably believe it.

<< Comment #879 @ 22:08 UTC, 21 January 2007 >>

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By

ted

Have you heard of the Everglide g-1000? I'd like to see how it does under your tests.

<< Comment #884 @ 18:07 UTC, 22 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (210.207.79.26)

dddddddddddddd

<< Comment #885 @ 12:18 UTC, 25 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (h69-130-173-79.69-130.unk.tds.net)

sujoy the g5 review you did, which firmware version did you use 1.1 or 1.2 and were the results the same?

-Bandros

<< Comment #886 @ 07:14 UTC, 28 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (87-194-79-182.bethere.co.uk)

Awesome review... seriously astounded! I followed the link from a ireplay TFC forum debating mice for gaming, and even though TFC is a pretty old game, I was still very interested in seeing the outcome of such a thorough review - thank you for taking the time to think up/ build/test everything!

I personally use the Logitech G1 (bought it when it first came out) and was very glad to see that it came out with a decent score - even if it came out lower in rank than I expected overall. As a recreational gamer with smaller than average hands (I am female after all!) the MX518 definitely wouldn't be suitable for me. The A4techX7 does look like an extremely attractive option though, should I ever need to change my mouse.

p/s: I'm definitely a high sensitivity player (standard mouse pad heh) according to your crystal clear breakdown, and can say that the Logitech G1 its been an absolute asset. One thing I do have to complain about with regards to its aesthetics - the 'shiny surface' tends to attract/cling to dirt more than other mice that I've used before. On a positive note: has only ever skipped due to the (freebie) mousepad surface becoming dirty; which brings me to the final point that I am looking forward to the (hopefully forthcoming) mousepad reviews, as well as any suggestions on what to look for on/(in?) a mousepad.

<< Comment #889 @ 05:19 UTC, 31 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (c-67-190-73-21.hsd1.co.comcast.net)

Hi Sujoy,

I curious about what you stated on page #3 of your article:

"Mouse response would be measured in counts per second (from Windows DirectInput) and movement speed would be measured in metres per second. DirectInput is easy to access so measuring the response of a mouse is fairly simple to do, and can be done very accurately."

More specifically, I'm curious about the ease of accessing your counts per second reading via DirectInput. Would it be possible to see the VB code entailed in this measurement?

Much Thanks,
Guyote

<< Comment #890 @ 09:03 UTC, 31 January 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #889

It's a little messy, so I'll clean up the front end before I make it public.

<< Comment #891 @ 16:10 UTC, 31 January 2007 >>

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By

shambz - Reply to #890

Sujoy, is it possible to test the Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000.?

MS says it uses "high definition" optical technology. It also runs at 1000 dpi.

<< Comment #892 @ 23:31 UTC, 31 January 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (66.185.101.227) - Reply to #890

Thanks Sujoy, I look forward to examining your code.

Guyote

<< Comment #893 @ 17:29 UTC, 2 February 2007 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

stripy

test these one:
http://www.fabstuff.net/products/664

:D

<< Comment #894 @ 10:00 UTC, 4 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (85.108.97.206)

Good work Sujoy.
What is the status of the new results?
Everyone is impatient to see the enhanced results. :)

By the way changing mouse pads or DPI caused any difference upon the performance?

And what about Logitech MX510 + A4Tech X718F?

Lastly any luck to test the response (lag-delay-latency (we have to find a common expression for it :D)) times ?

<< Comment #895 @ 17:39 UTC, 6 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (Oec20.o.pppool.de)

@ Sujoy

IS there alraedy a explaination out there why Laser sensor (ADNS-6010) have this speed problem?
have a look
~~ http://www.mstarmetro.net/~rlowens/OpticalMouse/
the ADNS-3080 is also only rated in the max. 40inch liga
Why do the optical sensor break this limit? (up to 177 inch)
~
http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=10
http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=11
~

by the way How can WE measure the counts/sec?? Windows DirectInput (dxdiag?)

and last but not least -Good job!

best regards

<< Comment #896 @ 19:22 UTC, 6 February 2007 >>

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By

plopinou

Excelent review, the one i was waiting for years.

I hope you will be able to test other gamepads really soon, and the icemat in particular, because i clearly have a big problem with it.
Both my 2 lasers mouse (habu and g5) seems to have a malfunction speed of a lot less than 1m/s on it.

Having a medium-low sens (i'm using a medium mouse_accel with a low sens for quake 3), i can't play with both at all, and must use my old good mx 300 instead :p

It's quite frustrating to have paid 50$ or more for a mouse, and to know that you can't use it with your favorite old game.

Furthermore, i'am afraid that, having both logitech and razer new laser technologies, the icemat will not be a good choice anymore to play with if there is no new "optical" mouse in the future.

If one remembers, icemat 1 (transparent) wasn't even compatible with optical mice, and, after releasing the black one, icemat promised to create a true optical compatible pad.
But the black one seemed to work great with all the optical mice available, and they finally never released it.

Time for them to work on it again for laser mice ?

Edited by plopinou at 02:57 UTC, 7 February 2007

<< Comment #897 @ 21:39 UTC, 8 February 2007 >>

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By

A7achn1d

Hi,

Anybody has any opinion about which mouse is best for a low - medium sens. I do quake3. I'm using and trying out both Razer copperhead and diamondback. I would like to try the Deathadder too. What do you think? I have icemat 2 black one. It works great with the diamondback,optical mouse.

thanx.

<< Comment #898 @ 07:42 UTC, 11 February 2007 >>

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By

free

Would be nice if you could try the G5 with the latest firmeware update (1.2). Curious if there is any improvement or not!

<< Comment #899 @ 08:45 UTC, 13 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (82-135-195-136.ip.zebra.lt)

i have mx518 on 1000hz,1600dpi it is amazing !

<< Comment #900 @ 13:41 UTC, 13 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (bri-nxg-pr3.tpgi.com.au)

Have you considered that for low sensitivity gaming your benchmarking system is not appropriate for mice with adjustable DPI?

For most mice the "perfect control" region would be higher if you turned down the DPI.

<< Comment #901 @ 16:50 UTC, 15 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (196.209.252.133)

im seriously looking at buying this mouse... coz its so damn pretty but im afraid it might not live up to the looks in terms of performance
and why in the hell are there so many problems always with razer, i never ever hear good things about this mouse, but non the less i still want to buy it. what mouse would you recomend other than the copperhead or any other razer, and are the problems with the mouse really difficult and time consuming to fix???

<< Comment #902 @ 17:36 UTC, 16 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (dynamic-220-038.natpool.uc.edu)

I would be neat to check out the logitech mx510. I have always felt it had superior performance to the mx518...but maybe it was just my impression.

<< Comment #903 @ 11:32 UTC, 20 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (bas7-montreal28-1178025289.dsl.bell.ca)

I use a G5 and I'm very pleased with it, though I use a low-med sensitivity for my games. I've always found it dead accurate, no matter how fast I flicked, and in a low-med sens cfg, a flick rail in Q3 is rather easy for me.

Using the G5's 1600 DPI setting with 4.25 sens and 0.035 accel.

These settings give me a good mix of accurate long range rails and quick and accurate 180's to catch those pesky backstabbers.

<< Comment #904 @ 00:52 UTC, 21 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (proxy2-array1.visp.net.lb)

review the a4tech x750bf

<< Comment #905 @ 09:16 UTC, 22 February 2007 >>

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By

take2

Hi, is it possible to overclock the usb port on Windows Vista (Utlimate 64Bit edition)? Do anyone have a clue how to overclock the usb port on Vista?
I use a MS Intelli Optical 1.1 mouse at my Windows XP system and I already have overclocked my usb port up to 1000 hz, it works well! So I want to do the same at Windows Vista. I'm very thankful for any anwser that could help me.

<< Comment #906 @ 00:43 UTC, 25 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (d64-180-12-92.bchsia.telus.net)

Why didn't I read this before i bought a copperhead????

After I read this, I am not kidding you, I got up and chucked my copperhead in the trash and went back to my old optical mouse.

I always wondered why this expensive copperhead mouse was making me worse at CS now i know why !!

Great article. Well done.

PS. Any chance you can test the newer A4tech mouses that came out with lasers?

I am really intruiged by their mouse line up.

<< Comment #907 @ 13:09 UTC, 25 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (bas7-montreal28-1178025289.dsl.bell.ca)

You need to also take into consideration that laser mice are much more surface dependent then optical, so depending on the surface you use them on you may get better performance.

<< Comment #908 @ 21:28 UTC, 25 February 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (87.68.8.181.cable.012.net.il)

Hey.. I have a question. In this article written that there is no difference about useing mx518 with patched USP port or without. I want to ask the writer of this article what was the preferences of mx518 while he was testing it.. Did he istalled the SetPoint drivers and what mod he used SetPoint tracking or the default one? I'm asking this because I feel very big differance between 518 on 125 hz and 500 hz. and on 125 hz on 1600 dpi I feel negative acceleration, but I'm not useing drivers. Another question... Is there any difference on 3.0 or on mx300 between 1000 hz and 500 hz or 250? Thank you!

<< Comment #909 @ 23:56 UTC, 7 March 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (lns-bzn-37-82-253-18-96.adsl.proxad.net)

Best mouse ?

<< Comment #910 @ 08:12 UTC, 9 March 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (cpe-24-58-181-253.twcny.res.rr.com)

Are you ever going to review the MX510? Jump from 500 -> 518 = illogical.

<< Comment #911 @ 21:46 UTC, 9 March 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #910

I don't have a MX510...

<< Comment #912 @ 23:49 UTC, 14 March 2007 >>

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By

tazmanian

The thing I don't understand was as I understand the Death Adder was rated as the mouse that had the most 'perfect control' but in REALITY the mouse was terrible cause it had all kinds of issues.

My question is, does this then nullify the rest of the testing methods? If the method didn't catch the problems with the Death Adder then perhaps the methods were skewed to begin with??

<< Comment #913 @ 19:08 UTC, 21 March 2007 >>

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By

Jamo

Does anyone know where I can get hold of a Logitech G1???

The only place I can see on the net is novatech and they are out of stock..:(

<< Comment #914 @ 06:29 UTC, 10 April 2007 >>

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By

Epik

where do you guys see the death adder reviewed, i don't see it up there...

<< Comment #915 @ 06:31 UTC, 10 April 2007 >>

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By

Nicky - Reply to #914

DA was released after this so had its own post http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1300293

<< Comment #916 @ 11:33 UTC, 28 April 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (084202079249.customer.alfanett.no)

Anyone knows if, and where its still possible to buy a new mx500?
i play with really low sense, and i hate the faults my mx518 makes because of the everchanging dpi.

<< Comment #917 @ 11:34 UTC, 28 April 2007 >>

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By

netrex - Reply to #916

You can turn that off. I never change DPI and I use MX518.

<< Comment #918 @ 17:00 UTC, 29 April 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (dynamic-162-113.natpool.uc.edu)

Amazing article. Great work figuring out lots of issues. Also great statistics

<< Comment #919 @ 23:50 UTC, 4 May 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (pD9E7C311.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)

Nice try to 'measure' mouse capabilities 'practically' and nice reading! Congrats!

BUT:
Are you aware that all your measurements which you record are dependent on the mouse surface - so called 'mouse pad'?
It is indisputable that not all sensors work 'perfect' on all mouse surfaces! So where is your determination about that fact?
Got it? You can only conclude that the mice you have tested, showed those specific data on THAT SPECIFIC mat-material. which you have used.

Example:
Sensor A of mouse 1 may perform well with a given mouse surface, say a QPAD UC ( i am not obliged to that company, so take any mouse mat manufacturer). But - devil's inside - accurately Sensor B of mouse 2 has problems with that mat surface, color or whatever...
then your mouse 2 performs bad.

BUT NOT GENERALLY. On that ^^ specific mouse mat. Mouse B may outperform the sensor A of mouse A on a different mat.

That said - to get precise results, you have:
- To exactly state the mouse mat you use, so that the results are comprehensible (that readers could buy that mouse mat for ex.)
- Maybe check a given mouse with different popular mouse mats

Just for your thoughts :) - Greets RT

<< Comment #920 @ 04:36 UTC, 16 May 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (206-248-177-217.dsl.teksavvy.com)

Can you please take a look at this logitech mouse??? Its an old one, maybe close to the mx 300, im sure everyone here had one.
Model number : 930808-0403
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16826104134

<< Comment #921 @ 06:31 UTC, 16 May 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #920

If that's the blue one then they are one of the very early optical mice that still skip - I do have one at home.

<< Comment #922 @ 22:42 UTC, 30 May 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (c9539284.virtua.com.br)

I want to know if the X7 750BF maybe have the the same performace or can be worst like the coperhead who have more DPI but less control

<< Comment #923 @ 14:38 UTC, 6 June 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (d54C31CA8.access.telenet.be)

mx3x0 and mx5x0 require logitech drivers to operate at 800 dpi...

<< Comment #924 @ 12:08 UTC, 11 June 2007 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (89.121.162.56)

Thank you! This article is the answer to my prayers!
m(_ _)m Thank you Master!

<< Comment #925 @ 06:14 UTC, 16 June 2007 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (c9539284.virtua.com.br)

Hey i bougth one X7 X178F and i cant do it work at 1000hz qith the hidusbf driver... i dowload the path for the service pack 2 and instaled but noting hapens... i can do it run at 31 hz but not more than 130hz... any one can help me here?
e-mail me [email protected]

<< Comment #926 @ 06:48 UTC, 27 June 2007 >>

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By

WALoeIII

Excellent article. I'm looking forward to an analysis of the performance of high DPI mice at lower DPI settings. Perhaps they don't run into the wall as quickly? I enjoy my Copperhead's shape, but this clearly explains my negative acceleration issues.

<< Comment #927 @ 04:49 UTC, 2 July 2007 >>

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By

EvEc

at last a micetest that is worth something!!

apparently magazines are judging gaming mice by the cont of their buttons and how high the dpi is. as a result of that policy mice like the "trust - gamer mouse optical - predator" are awarded with good grading, despite the fact this pice of crap has a malfunction speed of 3 m / hour.

thx a lot fot this superior test

looking forward for more :)

<< Comment #928 @ 11:41 UTC, 2 July 2007 >>

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By

EvEc - Reply to #927

appendix

apperantly almost all "gaming"mice of the label "trust" are called
"gamer mouse optical - predator"

what i also found out is, that the label "trust" is just a reseller not a manufacturer. and that the "A4tech X7 X-710BF" (i am very satisfied with this one, except for the plastic-smell :p ) can be found under the name "trust gamer mouse optical - predator". sorry i dont know the product nuber but it looks just like the X7 only the colour is black/red.

thx again for the test and the recommendation :)

<< Comment #929 @ 08:43 UTC, 6 July 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (204-111-33-17.hardynet.com)

good read.

<< Comment #930 @ 13:36 UTC, 12 July 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (194.51.20.124)

It would be nice to include CPU usage (with various USB polling rates) in a future version of Mousescore...

<< Comment #931 @ 00:37 UTC, 15 July 2007 >>

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By

dead__last

'And all these years I just thought i suked. Now I know it's because of my damn copperhead. I'm comin for you Razor guy!
:-)

<< Comment #932 @ 13:30 UTC, 22 July 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (pool-70-106-43-236.hag.east.verizon.net)

MX510 or Deathadder?

I have mx510 that I love, using it in 800dpi mode cause 400 is too low for desktop. Just got 4gb of ram so I'm using Vista x64 and Mouseware doesn't work, meaning no 800dpi. I have to get another mouse that can do more than 400dpi but still work as well as my mx510. I mostly play CS:S.

I use:
OS Implementation @ 1:1 setting (6th notch)
No Acceleration
25-30cm/360 (still experimenting)

Any opinions?

<< Comment #935 @ 11:45 UTC, 22 August 2007 >>

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By

z0uLess - Reply to #932

I use the DeathAdder and its working great. The shape is completly different, but I have gotten used to the change. I have been using mx500 -> mx510 -> mx518 -> DeathAdder. I'd like to point out that 400dpi is fine as long as you dont use high resolutions ingame (try the dpi calculator to find out how mutch dpi you need), and that vista really isnt that favourable in terms of gaming. I use about the same sens as you and the deathadder works fine, but it has minor issues, like with any other product. The forums on this site talks all about it. With the latest firmware most of the bugs are gone.

<< Comment #933 @ 10:50 UTC, 24 July 2007 >>

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By

chwonee

I am going to developing mouse now in korea.
I apology you because i am very poor english
I have one question.
I know that gaming mouse run 6400 fps(frame per second), but i don't know "counter per second(from Windows DirectInput)" you said. We need as belows.

- What is mouse response? Compare to above frame per second
Maximum fps is 6400, but counter per second is 270,000 in case of Razer deathadder
- how to measure in counter per second (From Windows Direct Input). For example, Source code that you already used to measure counter per second

I want to receive your solution by e-mail.
Thank you

<< Comment #934 @ 00:23 UTC, 5 August 2007 >>

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By

dzjepp

Hello,

The new logitech g9 gaming mouse is now out.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointe...p;cl=us,en

How soon for a review? Thank you :>

<< Comment #940 @ 17:01 UTC, 24 October 2007 >>

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By

Furore - Reply to #934

I'd also like to see a review for this..

<< Comment #936 @ 02:46 UTC, 24 August 2007 >>

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By

betabeta

Does anyone know a store in the UK where i can get hold of an mx300 or g1. Been looking online everywhere i can think of!

Tom.

<< Comment #937 @ 18:33 UTC, 25 September 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (c9538623.virtua.com.br)

When this bench will get some update? reply to my e-mail [email protected]

<< Comment #938 @ 12:13 UTC, 21 October 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (203.81.202.224)

Great work Sujoy!!

Add A4 tech X750 n death adder in the review.btw I own 710f and satisfied except it is heavy then my old simple a4tech optical and has cheap low quality feet.

Every third or fourth poster is asking for the 2500dpi A4 x7 750 review.

<< Comment #939 @ 13:38 UTC, 21 October 2007 >>

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By

f0cus '

After reading this whole article I went out and bought a death adder, but the thumb buttons are too low, so I came back to my 3.0

(me and my banana hands...)

<< Comment #941 @ 11:27 UTC, 29 October 2007 >>

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By

jal

Hmm... unlike most people, after reading the article, for me the winners seem to be Razer Krait/Diamondback and the A4techx710bf mouses. Other mouses score much higher on some aspects, but these two seem to be near the top at every aspect considered.

Edited by jalisko at 11:31 UTC, 29 October 2007

<< Comment #942 @ 12:26 UTC, 1 November 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (port-87-234-22-21.static.qsc.de)

i would love to see an update with all the new gaming mices.

<< Comment #943 @ 15:22 UTC, 1 November 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #942

Takes a *lot* of time to do these tests! Right now I'm quite busy with work so any free time I get I like to do more entertaining things.

<< Comment #944 @ 18:27 UTC, 11 November 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (85-18-136-104.fastres.net)

FANTASTIC!!! By keycode [ITA]

<< Comment #945 @ 21:41 UTC, 1 December 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (189-46-94-127.dsl.telesp.net.br)

Man...
I REALLY LIKED A LOT YOUR REVIEW!!!!!!!
Thanks!
Now I already know what is the best mouse that I need, since I live in a coutry with a heavy charge taxes.
I'll go for my A4Tech mouse, it really haves a good price around here...

<< Comment #946 @ 06:30 UTC, 11 December 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (132.68.48.60.trm02-home.tm.net.my)

Well sujoy, we all hope that you'll update the mouse score,
G9, Lachesis, Da with the new fw, DB 3G, Ikari optical and laser and so on, it wont take you days to just do these few mices?
Many people are dying for an updated esr lol

<< Comment #947 @ 19:32 UTC, 21 December 2007 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Jazka

I need a new mouse tomorow.

I need the mousescore 2008 today.

<< Comment #948 @ 08:55 UTC, 22 December 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #947

To everyone asking about making a new mousescore article... well I would absolutely love to do it but I'm totally swamped with real life work right now. Unfortunately doing these benchmarks takes a long time, and if I had that time available I'd probably spend it trying to get away from a computer!

<< Comment #950 @ 11:52 UTC, 23 December 2007 >>

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By

Jazka - Reply to #948

:'(

Delegate boss ?!

<< Comment #951 @ 13:52 UTC, 23 December 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #950

The pulleys and the drive train are broken, and the whole thing needs to be rejigged and calibrated. I can't think of anyone that would spend weeks fixing it up and doing all the tests for free :).

<< Comment #952 @ 14:37 UTC, 29 December 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (d51A52447.access.telenet.be) - Reply to #951

Can you at least make your software available so we can test various surfaces of our own?

<< Comment #953 @ 15:17 UTC, 31 December 2007 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #952

There's no software. I only made a 5 minute VB program to show the mouse input.

<< Comment #949 @ 07:24 UTC, 23 December 2007 >>

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By

Anonymous (w3cache.promontel.net.pl)

What with Creative Mouse Gamer HD7600L ?

<< Comment #954 @ 17:02 UTC, 6 February 2008 >>

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By

lomoclassic

good

<< Comment #955 @ 18:12 UTC, 22 March 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (ip-053-205-122-091.pools.atnet.ru)

1.guys,you dont need 500 or 1000Hz,coz it isn advantage over 125hz,its just feels like "m_filter 1"=bullshit(dont cry,its for real). 2.for games use ONLY these:MS 3.0\DA,MX500/510/518 or SS ikari (palm control-allow u 2 play with comfort for an hours&exellent aim on large distances) or mx300/g1,logitech mini,MS wmo (finger control-allow u have great microcontrol in RTS&aim on short distances in FPS)

<< Comment #956 @ 18:19 UTC, 22 March 2008 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

vedic - Reply to #955

or: go to hell

<< Comment #960 @ 18:11 UTC, 26 April 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (142.218.95.219.brf02-home.tm.net.my)

Hi Sujoy,

Excellent article. I think somebody already asked for this, but I'll just try asking again... is it possible for you to share the source code of the VB program you wrote to measure the CPS of a mouse using DirectInput. I think a lot of people would appreciate it very much (including me).

<< Comment #961 @ 21:27 UTC, 13 June 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (host-217-213-107-110.mobileonline.telia.com)

couldn't we all donate money? considering how many people that are interested by a 2008 edition, if everyone donated like 5$ then sujoy could make another one

<< Comment #962 @ 17:42 UTC, 19 June 2008 >>

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By

Sujoy - Reply to #961

I don't think readers should ever pay :).

1%

<< Comment #963 @ 13:14 UTC, 27 June 2008 >>

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By

unihumi - Reply to #962

but how else could we convince you?

<< Comment #964 @ 01:21 UTC, 30 June 2008 >>

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By

noblessus - Reply to #962

I would donate for a MouseScore 2008 edition without even thinking about it! Your 2007 article was very well made, and it was the only reason I ended up looking all around the web for an MX500, and it really works great after changing its USB rate!
I would really like to see a new article for all the new mice out there. Just in case one of them is better than my MX500. ;)

<< Comment #965 @ 12:19 UTC, 30 June 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (a82-93-249-127.adsl.xs4all.nl)

Same here - i would happily donate. i don't mind paying US$5 to US$10 when this could avoid buying a "mistake"

I'd really love to know whether the G9 would be worth buying as i consider my lachesis to be a mistake.

I guess using a paypal account would be the easiest way forward..

<< Comment #967 @ 11:59 UTC, 8 July 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (245-152.dial.nortenet.pt)

mx500,mx510, mx518, g9, razer deathadder and im back to mx518.

Best mouse ever

g9 has poor ergonomics, side buttons are poorly placed as well, the cover after some use starts to tilt. 3200dpis is useless and sensor is not in the center.

deathadder is a good mouse, but mouse2 is not well done...tooooo sensitive as it gets clicked by accident, side buttons could be better as well and mice feet could get a bit more "support"
software ui is badly designed.

Good idea was to revamp mx518 with the following stuff:

- Replace rubber cable by a braided cable.
- Mouse Usb pool rate selector
- "Onboard" memory so we could save our settings tio use in another computer.
-Small and safe carrying bag .

<< Comment #968 @ 19:02 UTC, 8 July 2008 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

qahdrk

got a intelli 1.1 with sidebuttons, like the previeuw sayd 'a mouse which does the job without too many fuzz' had never any problems with this mouse and it cost only 10 euro, tweak it to 500hz and its perfect

<< Comment #969 @ 08:34 UTC, 10 July 2008 >>

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By

flowrush

Just give me the IBM 19K2005 with a DA or IE3.0 sensor, solid skates and I'm set 4 life.

<< Comment #970 @ 22:38 UTC, 22 July 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (p548E3237.dip.t-dialin.net)

You ppl are so easy to manipulate it hurts. First the outcry how laser mice rule over infrared, now the outcry how infrared rule over laser The truth is all these MX3/5xx start to slow down at speeds >1m/s, while the laser one continues to track, though it will also skip depending on surface. And it will skip very soon on a matte surface like used in the test. If DA uses the same outdated sensor(and it appears it does) it will slowdown as well. Not many see it because you need a sens of 80cm/360 to even start noticing :)

Nice work in any case.
Logitech, Razer should pay you, you gave them a reason to sell outdated hardware for good prices.
And btw VB cant measure time reliable if using build-in routines.

<< Comment #972 @ 01:01 UTC, 11 August 2008 >>

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By

hughJ - Reply to #970

There was never any "outcry" over laser being better than LED. The only time I remember anything positive said about laser mice in terms of tracking consistency was from Logitech's marketing documents that were released when they first launched their MX1000.

The consensus from the gaming community has *always* been for the use of LED-based mice over laser. Before Sujoy's testing was ever done, there was already plenty of anecdotal evidence that laser mice simply don't track at high speed as well as LED mice. Sujoy's testing simply confirmed what was already experienced during the previous year.

"The truth is all these MX3/5xx start to slow down at speeds >1m/s"

No, the truth is that the MX300/500 overflowed the 8bit report buffer when moved faster than 1m/s. The MX510/G1 uses a 12bit buffer, which is why you see the G1 tracking ~50% faster. The MX518 tracks better still @ 2m/s, with 16bits and faster polling. The size of the reports on the MX300/500 obviously becomes a non-issue once the USB polling rate gets jacked up to 1000hz. At this point, you see the MX300/500 maintaining proper tracking all the way up to 4 m/s, which is only matched currently by the DeathAdder.

Current laser mice already have the benefits of a higher USB polling rate, and are still poor when compared to LED sensors. Blaming the surface for laser sensors performance just shows how inconsistent they are. If there were some magic mouse pad that allowed laser sensors to surpass LED then everyone would be using that mouse pad and no one would still be talking about LEDs.

As far as LED vs Laser goes in the marketplace, it's pretty clear what happened: Logitech, Razer, etc all banked on super high "DPI", "laser" as being buzzwords and gimmicks that could be used to sell their products. Tracking speed/consistency took a backseat.

<< Comment #971 @ 10:56 UTC, 27 July 2008 >>

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By

stunt.us

where does the mx510 fit between the mx500 and 518?

<< Comment #973 @ 01:04 UTC, 11 August 2008 >>

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By

hughJ - Reply to #971

It should be comparable to the G1. They use the same sensor.

<< Comment #974 @ 10:36 UTC, 17 August 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (139.168.246.243)

I think I will chime in and ask for the a47 750F review along with
2008 benchmark across the board.
But also thanks for doing the first one. Its fantastic and really really informative.

<< Comment #975 @ 00:49 UTC, 10 September 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (78-2-84-235.adsl.net.t-com.hr)

I have seen this mouse the laser Trust Predator GM-4800. It's very cheap for what it says on the box. It has 3200 dpi, 1000Hz, 1.15 meters/sec tracking, weight-s etc. It would be awesome if you would include it in you're next benchmark. thx

<< Comment #976 @ 16:10 UTC, 10 September 2008 >>

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By

trcrane63

Quoting from http://techreport.com/articles.x/15381/12

"Incidentally, if you're buying a mouse to play games, you might want to have a look at the following article on ESReality. Old-school Quake star Sujoy Roy has fashioned a benchmarking system for mice, and his resulting analysis should give you a good idea of which mouse is likely to get you the most kills in fast-paced action shooters."

They led me here, and I was very intrigued. I didn't realize a mouse could be so influential in gaming. Your article was very interesting, particularly the way you accomplished your experiment. Did set this up all by yourself? I was just wondering; I'm a mechanical engineering undergrad, and your experiment looked like something I would love to try just for the heck of it. Thanks a lot for the info, most people don't go into such great detail about issues like this. Loved it.

<< Comment #977 @ 13:11 UTC, 24 October 2008 >>

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By

Anonymous (114.subnet125-163-207.speedy.telkom.net.id)

http://www.sinsinat.com/content/view/1591/39/

<< Comment #979 @ 20:50 UTC, 21 March 2009 >>

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By

Anonymous (82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee)

Whitch is best? The Car that has top speed of 200km/h or 300km/h if you WILL NOT drive faster than 190km/h, assuming the cars differ only in top speed?

Author states "As I discussed earlier the standard 400 DPI resolution tends to be enough for low sensitivity players, but with higher screen resolutions and some players opting for high gaming sensitivity sometimes more DPI can improve your gaming."

Lets do some math:
at 400DPI resolution one 1/400th is about 25.4/400 = 0.06125mm
Okay this is about 16 counts in one millimeter!
I'm using millimeters because one millimeter is more convenient (at least to me) to feel, compared to 400 counts per inch. However lets take 1600 DPI mouse then we have 65 counts per millimeter. Has the true gamer (whitch i'm not) a hand that is really that sensive?

The mouse i'm actually talking about is MS Intellimouse Optical 3.0
from the (1000 Hz) Response Graph we can see that the peak counts per second is somewhere around 24000 so the mouse had to increment its internal counter on 24KHz frequency (41,6us). From this i guess that the internal mouse scanning frequency is above 24Khz (it probably uses some averaging algorithm, or other more complicated dsp algorithms) If mouse detects the movement lets say 1/400th of inch then the result is almost instantly available inside the mouse compared to the time it takes to reach PC. On worst case this is around 1ms on 1000Hz polling rate and 8ms with 125Hz polling rate.

With MS Intellimouse Optical 3.0 it sounds reasonable to have 250Hz rate because then the mouse behaves better on faster speeds, but if the mouse has more bits in its counter then it seems reasonable not to set the mouse polling rate greatter than maximum frame rate such as 250Hz, all greater values just dont give any effect. At least i can not see how they would.

One more calculation on MS 3.0 mouse (25000 counts/s)/ (127 max nr of counts to report) = 196,85Hz this is the mimimal usb polling rate that should give same response as 1000Hz

I currently belive that 400DPI should be perfect even for the best players

<< Comment #980 @ 22:17 UTC, 6 May 2009 >>

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By

Anonymous (e181162005.adsl.alicedsl.de) - Reply to #979

not that i understood what you explained. but what i am sure of is that with 400 pr even 800 dpi you cant play games without the option to change the sensivity ingame in 1200x1000 resolution properly, for example warcraft 3. expect if you change the default mouse speed in windows which is not good acording to him: http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals...guide.html
if i remember right then he said if you set it higher than 6 ditches then your mouse skips pixels.

anyway, someone who works in buisness said that dpi is just a marketing trick and that you can change it with certain programs. but i am not sure about the last thing.

<< Comment #1004 @ 05:59 UTC, 6 April 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (111.69.236.214) - Reply to #979

Posts old but,

1600dpi is not about precision or small movements, although I can move per-pixel (intermittently) at 800dpi on my MX518 (1600dpi model and 7 years old) which I do most of my desktop work at.

It's about speed, on my 1920x1200 monitor 400 dpi requires too much movement of the mouse to get to the otherside of the screen when mouse acceleration is off, espectially on RTS games (where I use 1600dpi) speed is at the utmost importance and pixel precision isn't, and if I need the precision I drop to 800/400.

I Still question the need for 5000dpi though, as the minimum movement in pixels must be borderline too much.

<< Comment #981 @ 14:41 UTC, 28 June 2009 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (host-89-43-162-48.bluetelecom.ro)

Is this 1.1a ? Thanks!
http://www.pcgarage.ro/mouse/microsoft/wheel-mouse-optical-black

<< Comment #983 @ 18:54 UTC, 24 July 2009 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Terifire - Reply to #981

yes it is

<< Comment #982 @ 19:11 UTC, 3 July 2009 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

- Z -

we need MOAR

<< Comment #984 @ 08:20 UTC, 6 August 2009 >>

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By

Anonymous (213.8.96.178)

chipset
have you thought to check which chipset is inside the mice?

<< Comment #985 @ 22:45 UTC, 29 November 2009 >>

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By

Anonymous (91.214.133.162)

Good bench. But it lacks modern top level mouses.
Interpolation inside mouse and acceleration handling could be tested by rapidly stopping rotating disc.
Sujoy please make new benchmark test.

<< Comment #986 @ 22:46 UTC, 29 November 2009 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

netrex - Reply to #985

I'll correct it here, but I've seen it many places here on ESR lately.

One mouse, several mice! Not mouses or mices.

<< Comment #1001 @ 10:59 UTC, 9 February 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (59.178.204.188) - Reply to #986

From a post much much higher up in this thread...

By Finland Ezku - Reply to #883
I quote:

The fourth (current as of 2006) edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language endorses both computer mice and computer mouses as correct plural forms for computer mouse. The form mice, however, appears most commonly, while some authors of technical documents may prefer the form mouse devices. The plural mouses treats mouse as a "headless noun", as discussed in the English plural article.

<< Comment #987 @ 11:39 UTC, 9 December 2009 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (AIPA169-206.bistrita.astral.ro)

Sujoy, can you please tell me how did you measure mouse response?

<< Comment #988 @ 01:11 UTC, 8 January 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Cloud

why the fuck isn't the stupid fuckin deathadder article linked on this goddamn thing

<< Comment #989 @ 04:23 UTC, 9 January 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (87-194-101-6.bethere.co.uk)

are we going to get an updated mouse score 2010 article?

<< Comment #991 @ 15:37 UTC, 30 April 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

scheherazade

Hoping to see an update.

All these 5000+ dpi mice with new <whatever>g sensors, this stuff is begging for a 'real' review.

-scheherazade

<< Comment #992 @ 01:00 UTC, 1 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (68.45.225.27)

Does anyone know if it's possible to raise USB mouse rate in Ubuntu? Or any Linux distro? What about with the Logitech drivers?

<< Comment #993 @ 01:02 UTC, 1 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Nukm - Reply to #992

it is, just google for it. did it like 2 years ago and it wasnt really complicated

€: also remembered this thread on the ql forums http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36518

Edited by Nukm at 01:06 UTC, 1 July 2010

<< Comment #994 @ 04:25 UTC, 26 September 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

tehj0n

Mousescore 2010 edition please :)

<< Comment #995 @ 10:52 UTC, 28 September 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #994

This

Including zowie's latest products.

<< Comment #998 @ 20:17 UTC, 12 October 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

ischju - Reply to #994

he should get money for it though...

<< Comment #996 @ 15:47 UTC, 10 October 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (83.150.83.200)

Of course, there is no way to test scientifically mouse shapes because palm size, finger lenght and even different grip techniques affect the results. Humans are not uniform after all. Impossible to do any decisive test on this subject.

<< Comment #997 @ 19:35 UTC, 12 October 2010 >>

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By

Anonymous (92.117.36.220)

would really love to see an update on that article

<< Comment #1000 @ 13:53 UTC, 9 November 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

PerpetualWar - Reply to #997

+1

<< Comment #999 @ 06:01 UTC, 7 November 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Lysis

probably the only real mouse review i've ever seen - thank you

Would love to see how the new laser mice stack up- have the laser mice finally caught up to optical? ie logitech g9x & g500

Would love to see how the new razor mice perform
& how the new steelseries mice are

MOAR MOUSESCORE PLZ

<< Comment #1002 @ 17:45 UTC, 28 March 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (199.46.245.237)

Would like to see how the Microsoft Sidewinder stacks up to the Optical Mice.

<< Comment #1003 @ 06:24 UTC, 27 September 2011 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (119.73.172.34)

Would you be using your set-up to test the new mice on the market to keep OEMs honest? :)

<< Comment #1005 @ 23:09 UTC, 17 April 2012 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

esdf

someone update this to 2012

<< Comment #1006 @ 20:35 UTC, 6 June 2012 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

dynodeath - Reply to #1005

Mice idea, but that's a mighty task hrhr... Do you realize what the mouse birthing rate over that time period is? I fear for Sujoy's bank balance getting those results.

<< Comment #1008 @ 07:05 UTC, 9 December 2012 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

archalias - Reply to #1005

+1

<< Comment #1007 @ 21:00 UTC, 6 June 2012 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

ischju

This mouse score is still the best you can find on the internet. Plus, most mice that are listed here are still used bit a lot of people. Showing that must of the stuff out there is just not as good as some might hope.

<< Comment #1009 @ 07:16 UTC, 12 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

illiterate

so its mx5** > wmo 1.1a (in mouse score)
and wmo 1.1a > mx5** (in players opinion)

odd

<< Comment #1010 @ 08:58 UTC, 12 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

T1E - Reply to #1009

not everyone needs 2+ m/s perfect control

shape/feel is more important than technical details

<< Comment #1011 @ 08:53 UTC, 21 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Sujoy - Reply to #1010

I must say I keep going back to the WMO. There is something unquantifiably great about it. Just feels right.

<< Comment #1012 @ 23:45 UTC, 4 October 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (83.187.135.53) - Reply to #1011

Have you ever thought about benchmarking "new" mice, that are available in the market right now?
If so, would you have the time and energy (let's actually call this desire) to make it?
I'm sure it would help more people to be more conscious about choosing their gaming peripheral, other than fancy colors and a pro player posing on the back of the packaging.
I see that Mousescore 2.0, 201X or whatever you could call it could in fact enlighten people who are not yet, well - enlightened about the fact that the mouse (given you care even slightly about what you get for your money) is not just the casing, packaging and how the reviewer feels the given day.
Anyhow I would be delighted to see what you think about this.

<< Comment #1013 @ 14:24 UTC, 8 October 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (83.26.12.32)

Seeing this test repeated on new mouses (in the same way - to compare with old ones) would be so freakin' great! So far this is the only real benchmark of gaming mice ever done.
/Zw1d

<< Comment #1014 @ 01:50 UTC, 28 February 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Jamerio '

Update please :)

<< Comment #1019 @ 21:55 UTC, 18 January 2024 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

ini - Reply to #1014

It's funny to see:

1) How this was basically groundbreaking testing at the time and how far gaming mice and knowledge of the technologies has come.

2) How all the enthusiast mice these days are Jamerio mice!

<< Comment #1015 @ 13:18 UTC, 14 July 2014 >>

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By

daarkside

Your Mouse Benchmark is an FPS online competetive gamer legend, the first of its kind and sadly the last to this day. Compared to your masterpiece everything else on the internet about this topic isnt more then blablah. Thx.

Even thoug i dont need a new mouse at the moment, i am sure many of the new gamers would like to have SOME valuable information about the current mice market. Some information that looks behind the shiny packaging, behind the progamer faces(which they dont know anyway^^) and silly meaningless or even counterproductive numbers.

<< Comment #1016 @ 04:59 UTC, 5 July 2017 >>

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By

Anonymous (65.34.231.238)

2017..

i still use this mouse :D

<< Comment #1017 @ 20:53 UTC, 22 July 2017 >>

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By

Anonymous (195.242.232.193)

hi i got "natec genesis gx66" gaming mouse and go problem for long time... i pref. low sens. so my movment must be very quick. but if i do quick moves mose dont react or react to my needed 180" gives maby 2-5" its like move forom one brick of wall to next brick when i need move from one direction to opositte(180").

i use homemade mousepad tecture covered with wax and polished slick so its smooth

i hope you understand my english and answer to my question

my email [email protected] or facebook user: Nianio Niawski

<< Comment #1018 @ 21:12 UTC, 22 July 2017 >>

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By

Freiya - Reply to #1017

Don't buy junk next time.

Also, get a decent pad.