One step in the right direction. The movement would be too cut and dry without something to give the game an element of speed.

That was partially my thinking in adding the mechanic into Nex. The trouble is not making it the focus of our game, its mainly just meant to be there as a tool to allow for close range combat. Its going to be much more limiting than in Xonotic for example where you can hop forever.

Internally we are coming up with solutions to discourage heavy use of it in favor of more dodging around the map.

It'll be a tough balance, but I think its doable.

0:50 I completely disagree. It's not overly complicated. It's a mechanic you learn, the better you are at it, the more you're rewarded in effective game-play on an exponential curve.

1:24 Bhop in Goldsrc and Source games is less complicated.

1:50 This isn't even close to bunnyhopping.

I like that you're taking input, but I don't like that you're constantly compromising.

Strafe jumping was an error in the code to begin with, it was never intended to be a game mechanic. And you can tell because the way you control it is about as unintuitive as it gets.

The only thing strafe jumping does is allow it so that long time Quake fanboys can stomp on anyone who is new to any other game that imitates Quakes strafe jumping system.

If Nex is to be successful it needs to get past the stupid "DAE wish it was 1999?" mindset. Its like the tired Broodwar vs SC2 argument. People think the limited ability to group units in BW makes the game superior to SC2, when in actuality it was just a technical limitation of the time.

Bhopping in CS is more difficult than in Nex.

At the time of the post its Easter here. So I declare it bunnyhopping.

Its not compromising, its fixing the issue with having overly defensive gameplay. Wall sliding and dodging makes it too easy to evade. The ability to quickly burst into fast speed for a short duration allows for close combat.

I want a game with much more close intense aggressive combat and not like UT2k4/Quake where its boring, uninteresting mid to long range fights that snowball.

This game isn't directly aimed at Quake/UT players. The general gaming community is our primary focus, and thus it needs to be made accessible for lower level people to get into and have fun while having more complexity at the top level. That influx of new people means the potential for new pro players, new names, new play styles. If we aim Nex at Quake/UT players its dead on arrival. If Titanfall shows me anything while designing Nex its that people want a game like this.

Our Greenlight did so well that Steam accepted our game well before the deadline.

And most importantly, its a game that the team developing Nex enjoys and its a game we want to make. Making the false claim that I am compromising is incredibly insulting.

Strafe jumping was an error in the code to begin with, it was never intended to be a game mechanic. And you can tell because the way you control it is about as unintuitive as it gets.

It's not an error, it's an exploit. The game is functioning exactly how it was programmed to. The players figured it out and the game evolved from there. If you understand how it actually functions, the control makes complete sense.

The only thing strafe jumping does is allow it so that long time Quake fanboys can stomp on anyone who is new to any other game that imitates Quakes strafe jumping system.

How about it makes the game more interesting, accelerated, and skill based?

Bhopping in CS is more difficult than in Nex.

Nex doesn't have bhopping yet.

Its not compromising, its fixing the issue with having overly defensive gameplay. Wall sliding and dodging makes it too easy to evade. The ability to quickly burst into fast speed for a short duration allows for close combat.

And most importantly, its a game that the team developing Nex enjoys and its a game we want to make. Making the false claim that I am compromising is incredibly insulting.

Do what you want. When I refer to compromising, I mean you're trying to balance a line between casual and competitive that simply does not exist. They're conflicting concepts.

I want a game with much more close intense aggressive combat and not like UT2k4/Quake where its boring, uninteresting mid to long range fights that snowball.

Have you ever seen CPM?

The general gaming community is our primary focus, and thus it needs to be made accessible for lower level people to get into and have fun while having more complexity at the top level.

By making things simple and easy for new players, you're alienating the competitive players that are driven by learning and mastering skills. You're eliminating the skill-curve.

What makes strafejumping and bhopping so great as skills is that they alone have such a depth that entire communities can form around competing in only those aspects.

Error/exploit the semantics are irrelevant. Its unnecessarily and overly complicated.

It makes the game boring to watch.

It was released on Easter so its bunnyhopping

They aren't conflicting concepts. In SC2 a sizable amount of current pros got into the game as casual players and are now big names in the community. Its 100% doable and our Greenlight shows considerable interest from a more casual playerbase.

I have seen and played it. The Contenders 2 is my favorite frag movie of all time. If I wanted to make a clone of CPMA I'd be trying to join the Reflex team.

And yet in UT there is the bunny tracks communities that revolved around mechanics that are less complex for the lower skilled player, and yet are incredibly hard to execute on various bunny track courses.

Easy straightforward movement is the way to go and time will hopefully prove me right. At the end of the day, the competitive players go where the community is, and if Nex is the next big thing I'm sure you'll end up making an account on Nex to play because that's where the tournament money is going to be.

In the discussions with bigger esports organizations and with pro players, after hearing about our plan for the game and learning about our mechanics they all have said we have the best vision and plan and the most talented team of the people they have spoken
with.

Why do you keep calling it overly complicated? I realize it's a videogame, but if you understand physics at all, it makes complete sense. It's very logical which would lead to being intuitive if you know how it breaks down.

It makes games WAY more fun to watch.

It's not bhop :>

They are conflicting concepts... Casual vs Competitve, Easy vs Hard. Meeting in the middle ground will add to the casual player's experience, but the top end of the competition will naturally held back.

I'm sure lots of people will enjoy playing you game, but I would never use a survey to determine what is good or bad. That's way too subjective.

I won't be signing up for Nex for a multitude of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with Nex.
I would, however, like to try to break/exploit your game. I'm really good at it :)

"Eliminating the skill curve."
It's interesting that you say adding another movement mechanic eliminates the skill curve. To truly and absolutely eliminate that curve with regard to movement, he'd have to remove all special mechanics and solely limit it to running. Also, the introduction of jumping speed bursts does add more tactical play to the game. If you are playing heavily defensively, then the speed burst feature will encourage you to develop even STRONGER defensive skills if you want to stay defensive. Because the aggressing player (your opponent, in this example) can now rush you in bursts, you need to be much more thoughtful and put more consideration into your position, the opponent's position, proximity and timing of items... overall game sense.

I think it's an exaggeration to say that the Nex devs are simplifying "skills" to the point of elimination of the skill curve. Firstly, only one aspect of an old movement system has been simplified here, not any of the game's other skills. Secondly, good players will still out-position, out-aim, and out-think the newbies. If you are indeed worried about alienating players who love to learn movement mechanics, then remember that Nex includes jumping speed bursts (called "bunnyhopping" here), UT-style dodges, wall-sliding, and possibly some other mechanics. (I'm not knowledgeable about entire movement system at this point.)

If I missed the point, let me know.

Thanks for the response.

It can totally lead to more defensive play, and that should be an option for players. But keep in mind map design and our choice of weapons for the game. That can have a big effect on things.

It requires testing. It'll take time to really get it right and I'm fine with putting in the time to get it where it needs to be.

Perhaps my wording is misleading. I'm setting out more to eliminate things that are accessibly hard to do. Our movement is still actually pretty challenging to new players, but not so much it drives them away. They can hop in and after a few hours get the basic down, but only after much more practice get the really advanced parts.

The weapons and inventory management is really where I want the skillset to shine and be hard, especially because our game works completely different than other arena shooters in terms of health and weapons. I just find it comical how movement is somehow the holy grail, when what really makes or breaks the game is the weapons.

pls man if you add UT-Style dodges make it so it works only on 1 key press, just like in warsow ;)

good luck with your project!

You missed the point. You're right in saying that accelerating the player will naturally increase the skill level, but what I was getting at was that simplifying bhop to the point that it's unrecognizable as a bhop variant is eliminating the skill curve of bhop.

If you understand how it actually functions, the control makes complete sense.

That's not what being intuitive actually means.

If you understand basic physics, it does.

Explain it like I'm five. I can strafejump alright, but I can't get a hold of how turning in the air will give me speed.

I imagine that when you press +forward and strafe it will apply twice as much force to your character. Then you instantly jump to get rid of friction.
????????

Five is a bit much. The game is 15+ right?

You are adding multiple "directions" together, resulting in faster movement.

If you run forward and sweep the mouse, you go faster than just forward.

If you run forward, sweep the mouse and strafe the same direction, you go even faster.

If you do the above and jump, you remove the "ground" aspect and can go faster still - chain together and there is no ground "slow down" effect.

grrrrrrdian sort of explained it like this in his tutorial.

One thing that is lacking from most strafe jump tutorials I have seen is that queuing jumps (while in the air) works better than trying to time the jump on the land. If you jump while in the air you jump instantly when landing.

Notice how you are only ever using two driections and they are complimentary. While going forwards or left/right: Forwards + left, forwards + right Likewise with backwards or left/right: backwards + left, backwards + right. If you were to do the oposite, say forwards + backwards while trying to go forwards and backwards.. you are not adding anything together, you are uysing two directions that are fighting each other.

At least that is how I have always thought of it..

If you add a spin to an object moving through space, that angular momentum actually gets added to the object's velocity. It's a well known fact in physics that was interpreted at first as a "bug" in Q1 because it was a behaviour unintended by its developer.

http://esreality.com/post/2586997/n-a/#pid2586997

No, babe, it doesn't.

Also, basic physics? You sure? Last I went outside, the physics didn't behave like they do in Quake, sorry.

They don't, but in theory they do.

You only need to understand Newton's laws and how acceleration works. I'm 99% sure it developed out of Quake simply because of the Square unit system.

If you walk the length of a square game unit, you go 100 units per second (just a number). If you walk the width of a square game unit by strafing, you are walking 100ups. If you walk +forward and +moveleft diagonally across a game square, you are still walking 100ups, even though the distance you traveled is longer. Now if you +forward and +moveleft against a wall, that diagonal vector is forced straight, covering more distance in the +forward line. Bunnyhopping basically simulates this effect. Once you start jumping you eliminate ground friction for higher speeds. It's all vectors.

It's cool that you have your own vision and stuff and I wouldn't let myself down by people wanting the game to be something else. Do what you feel is right. Quakers can just play Quake. Totally fine. If Nex can bring a simplified version of more advanced movement concepts to the masses and point them to the older and more complex games if they want to delve deeper, even better.

However, as a big fan of quake and CPM's movement system I wouldn't touch your game with a ten foot pole, at least not for the movement (doesn't really matter, since we're not the target audience and have Quake to play).
You can't argue that "press W+Jump to go fast" has the same depth as CJ+SJ and all the stuff in CPM (call it complicated if you want), and that players, who are willing to invest time into mastering that kind of movement will have such a significant advantage as they have in CPM (and vanilla Q3/QL to some extent). Skilled movers having an advantage is a good thing, because it introduces another execution based mechanic to the game apart from aiming ((c) ddk).
I don't know what other things you want to build into the game movement wise, but if what we saw is all there is, there won't be any "complexity at the top level". How could there be, if anybody can understand all the mechanics at play in 20 seconds and have it mastered in maybe 50-100 hours? It's essentially CPM Air Control (but only for pressing forward) with a speed gain.

How are you not compromising when you're sacrificing the depth and the skill ceiling of an actually sophisticated movement system just to get a bigger audience?

About strafejumping being complicated:
It is actually quite straight forward, and can be explained to anybody in like 2 minutes. The problem is that most people/games lack the tools (and sometimes understanding...) to do so in an intuitive manner. See below.

Watch the following video. The concepts at play are only slightly more difficult than "press W and jump". It might require some thinking.


Or go to 2:35 in the following video. Not quite as intuitive in its explanation, but still better than the big majority of QL tutorials, just for the hud:



Yes, it takes hundreds to thousands of hours if the players really want to master these mechanics, but they'll get good enough for normal vQ3/QL play by just completing the tutorial and playing the game. If a player has really good aim, dodge, timing etc., he doesn't even have to be able to bridge2rail and he will do just fine.

"The only thing strafe jumping does is allow it so that long time Quake fanboys can stomp on anyone who is new to any other game that imitates Quakes strafe jumping system."

Long-time Quake 'fanboys' will stomp anyone who is new anyway. Isn't that what you'd want and expect in a skill-based game? Strafe jumping is not responsible for that.

Your comment illustrates how little understanding you have of what makes deep gameplay.

"its a game that the team developing Nex enjoys and its a game we want to make."

Cool, stick with that. Good luck, you're doing well and it's hard. But this is really not the audience for what you're doing, you're doing to get negative reactions and it will be in part because your comments are insulting to what we like, not just because we're assholes.

I actually have a deep understanding of what makes deep gameplay, I've been playing arena FPS for a super long time. And have been map making for just about as long.

I don't think anyone is an asshole. I just think people are way too attached to Quake. They take criticisms of the game they play personally. Its a game, not your identity. I've played UT since 2002 and will gladly agree and pick apart the criticisms of that game series.

When I initally started creating the movement I was like "I needs to be really difficult and hard and blah blah", but then I realized that it was a horrible decision to do that for our game.

Why do we want to imitate our competition who is already intimating other games?

Greenlight showed us that the general gaming population wants a game like this. Even bigger esports companies we've talked to are sold on the idea once they really hear what we want to do.

I come and post on the competitive communities because even though we're aiming at getting a lot of general gamers into playing, that the competitive people are still very important to us and that they do matter.

Ok, please explain what you understand deep gameplay to be, specifics preferred over hand waving.

We're having a discussion above. I'd just like to let you know that I have absolutely no attachment to Quake. I was never good at it. I hardly ever played it. You're pitching it to (essentially) the Quake crowd and we will naturally think relatively. It's tried and true.

Strafe jumping was only initially an exploit (not error). After it's 'discovery' during development it was embraced. I'm talking pre-Q3, too - it's in Q3 intentionally.

Indeed, and it was a decision that was a great one that served them well in the gaming climate at the time.

>served them well in the gaming climate at the time.

Might as well throw out Mouse and Keyboard support if you are after current "gaming climate".

not even close to bunnyhopping? you have no clue you nub quaker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8wPgeP4cpM
-- dont see that guy spinning his handles to gain speed

Why do you think he's going so slow?


PS. The technical term for what he is doing is a J-hop. Get on my level.

You're point is so retarded. It adds another dimension of skill. Any game mechanic is arbitrary, its up to you to tune the difficulty and depth by choosing what you want to include.
You sound like a frustrated UT player.

I can strafe jump just fine. It's just a bad execution of a good mechanic.

OMG WHAT A FRESH IDEA! (if you have never heard about PainKiller/Warsow/Xonotic)

Now you only need to introduce autohop while keeping jump key pressed :D

Can't please everyone.

O_O since you're about making your "bunny hopping" easier to everyone, that would be very logical move.

Even still people will complain, and they have the right to. Everyone's opinions are different. Titanfall proves that easier execution of cool movement mechanics is what people want. Same with Mirrors Edge.

Competitive guys like to poop on casual gamers, but they like a challenge just as much as the rest of us, but they may not have the ability to invest as much time into learning.

My philosophy is that the player should hop into the game and gently get trained up and going extremely fast. That's likely not going to happen with strafe jumping.

One of my favorite series' is the SSX games. To a noob they are ultra fun. Pop in Tricky and hit up Garabaldi and hit that first big jump and go 'wow this is fun!". Same idea for us. More experienced players its super competitive and people are still competing for the best runs because at the high level the skill is there.

Same with SC2, they simplified and streamlined a lot of annoying things from BW and made it possible for new people to enter and have a lot of fun. And you can get away with crazy builds and strategies, even as Terran in the current meta. Players like RuFF base their play off of crazy builds that you'd never get away with in BW.

Nice drop on Tricky. I was insanely good at the game, but it really had no depth to it at all and took me no time to 'master.' Now I never even get the itch to play it again, not even for nostalgia's sake.

> Titanfall proves that easier execution of cool movement mechanics is what some people want.

ftfy

Everybody but ESR wants.

Titanfall is overhyped piece of Call of Duty

Everybody but ESR are spoiled everything-to-me-right-now kids who would cheat in quake because they couldn't get the cock out of their ass any other way.

why don't you just add sprinting instead if that's how you're going to do 'bunnyhopping'?

Sprinting is too sudden It'd reward bad players who just-so happened to sneak up behind their opponent and get a frag.

A quick increase in hopping also gives a brief warning due to audible jumping sounds.

Too sudden? What would you call dodging?

A considerably less intense change in direction than the style of sprint that was previously proposed. If you've ever played UT, dodging into a persons face means you are probably going to die for your stupid risky move.

The bunnyhopping is considerably faster in speed than a side dodge.

continuous jumping looks silly and isn't even fun when not based on interesting skill-based techniques like in qw/cpm. it's antiquated and bad game design in general and the world of fps games is better off without it. shame that none of these new "old school fps" games are willing to abandon it.

just do sprinting with acceleration and audible sounds and it will fulfill all the criteria of your non-skill-based "bunnyhopping" without making the game look like some silly bouncy balls with guns mess.

not to mention the whole idea of balancing freedom of movement with map layouts and other gameplay elements. but it seems nex has missed the boat on that one anyway.

good luck with the game anyway.

Have to agree with qr here. It just seems silly to hold forward and jump for a speed boost. I'd rather it just be running like doom2 if that's the case.

ESR so far is the only place with significant pushback on the changes. Its what I was expecting when I hit the post button.

As the famous quote goes “You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”.

Like I said previously, this is the debate equivalent to Brood War vs Starcraft 2. I'm taking the Starcraft 2 philosophy.

might as well include an aim-assistant.

> ESR so far is the only place with significant pushback on the changes.

Where else have you posted about the changes? I'd like to know this.

Nice that you want to have an open platform movement wise but smacktalking strafejumping and its supporters won't give you extra credit.

Our target audience isn't that community anyways.

I got into CPM because I loved the movement, in all its complexity, because that complexity allows for the countless possibilities. I think I would have quit a year ago if it wasn't for the sheer joy of moving around in Quake.

I'm convinced I'm not the only one.

I got into Quake through watching frag videos at a gaming centre and thinking strafing was fluid and cool as fuck.

Then Nex may not be the game for you. I don't pretend that its going to appeal to all of the Quake and UT guys. Our competitors are probably more up your ally for that. However, its worth giving our game a try just for the heck of it.

I think by simplifying movement you're taking away one of the main strengths of the arena fps genre in terms of long term appeal. I definitely agree that a new arena fps should try to come up with something other than strafe jumping (though I very much disagree with your reasoning), but I think simplified movement is not the way to go.

Warsow is doing it right: lowering the barrier of entry (autohop and +fwd bhop) without in any way lowering the skill ceiling.

Also, I'm wondering, who are you targeting?

CPM is like a combination of Nex & VQ3...even if you dont both strafing you can spam the jump key & still gain some speed

k.

strafe jumping is too complicated

LÖL

a normal person knows how strafejump after 3 days playing ...
its so easy to execute ...
and when a person trys out a new game, he probably just wants to play the game ... learn the levels, the weapons ... and at some point he will notice ah there is also a movement mechanic that allows you to move faster/jump further, and he will learn that in 2-3 days ...
once you know how strafejump, it is so easy to execute ... it just comes naturally to you ... no need to abolish it all ...
but go on, make the game more easy and more boring

It's just not true. Every experienced person I've personally trained to learn Quake took several weeks to become fluent at strafe jumping.

The movement isn't supposed to be what makes our game difficult. Its the health and armor system that is where the real skill and tactics come in. To my knowledge, and arena shooter hasn't attempted the idea we are going for.

Easier mechanics for movement execution is the way to go and I firmly stand by my decisions to do so.

Then you where teaching them wrong. OPC1, the platform jump map in Q3, took me maybe less than an hour to learn getting from one end to the other, not knowing how to correctly strafe before that. Bridge to rail, less. A few days of just playing botmatches and going back to OPC1 I overjumped the landing pads and was able to do it backwards after a few attempts.
After that it is simply refining until the end of time.

And while it is hard, the rewards for it is why you have communities dedicated just towards the movement. I struggle to find the appeal of your health and armour system as something that will make up for it. It sounds rather cumbersome in a fast paced arena fps.

But hey, I wish you success. May you pull in the noobs. GL&HF.

show me some strafe jumping so I know you aren't some tier 2 reject fuck. Then I might listen to you.

so basically it's quake 3 with shitty hud and same old and boring graphics?

Except with different movement mechanics and different resource management mechanics and different weapons on a different engine with different graphics than what's being shown now.

So you cant read? That big bold text that says protoype isnt enough for you to get that all of the stuff shown is temporary prototype graphics.

? what exactly are you reffering to

good to see you guys are making progress. gl

Nice to see this project develop, good job!

Thanks. :) We still have some cool movement things in the works. I think once we really explain the health and armor system things will really begin to piece together.

This thread has progressed as expected. I figured the insulting comments about strafe jumping coupled with a deviation from the norm would upset many a fan boy.

Its like the Doom 3 documentary that was made. They said it themselves, their fans are so stuck in the past that they can't deviate much on the franchise. Its the same with Quake players.

They can attack me all they want, but the way strafe jumpjng is executed is a bad control scheme. People bexome so attached to something it becomes their identity. And when you criticise thay game they think you are insulting them personally.

I haven't watched that documentary, but releasing a sequel that's a whole different genre altogether than the originals is different than fans being stuck in the past. In such cases it'd be morally better to release the game as a new franchise or under a different brand, but they won't due to financial reasons and they know it has worked for them in the past, since quake2 was not going to be called quake2 and was not intended to be a sequel of quake.

As for particular aspects of a subgenre, movement is a quite sensitive topic. It doesn't necessarily have to be executed in a certain fashion, for example the UT and PK series did it very well and are different than quake's approach, but here it has to be smooth and using the simple yet complex formula. For example doom3's movement has nothing to do with doom1's, in theory and in practice.

As for this project's development, can't care less really. There's been dozens of similar projects over the years and most failed to deliver or weren't released, so I'll care when it is finished and if it is good (not all fps' are).

You're entitled to your opinion. The fact is strafe jumping is one of the best features of Quake. You won't accomplish anything by berating it to the Quake community. Next time, try to avoid the bias and simply deliver your game.

I never said the idea of a gaain in momentum was bad. I just said the process in how you do it is. I never said Quake was bad, because it isn't, and never said the community is bad, which it isn't.

#brandloyalty

Doom 3 was a terrible game though. Straight line no exploring weak attempts at horror etc.

If you think Doom 3 was a great game, your game is going to suck.

Your bw v sc2 comparison is silly. One of the biggest appeals of playing Quake for me is strafe jumping. I remember playing at home thinking I was pretty good. Played a few home lans with friends. We only had very expensive 56k modems back then, so I had very little exposure to the outside Quake world.

Then I participated in local lan where some of the peeps where strafe jumping. Sure I was destroyed, but not only because of movement, aim, positioning, timing etc. But after I got home I sat down and practiced it. And oh man was that an amazingly rewarding experience. The next lan a month later, I could do many of the platform jump maps backwards.

And even after all the years you still learn nuances, like I think jibo's 3 plasma climb to ra on ztn and walter's exceptional use of wall clipping in high level dueling. And you incorporate each of these new things you learn into your own game.

It adds so much more depth, since I am not a very strong positional player or the greatest of aim, I can at least sometimes outmaneuver similar skilled players with better aim and strategy.

So go ahead, call us nostalgic, call the games we love boring, call the mechanics broken. But know this, its the game we love to play, because of it.

And if you don't like our criticism why put them out here?

by removing all the nuances from strafejumping, you will never have that 0.01% of players, who are the only people that can complete the last lane on strafejump maps.

with your strafejump system, everyone will always accelerate in the same manner, its kind of a shame imo.

i always thought it was awesome, that in quake3 you could kind of tell a players background. even in the pro players you could easily tell apart, who came from playing ctf beforhand, since they had way better movement.

I am the 0.01% >:D

Strafe jumping is the coolest thing in Q3. It totally is a bug, but it was a bug in Q1 and practically became a feature in Q3. Definitely in QL. Nobody would play Q3 if it didn't have strafe jumping; it would be slow and boring and shitty.

The same goes for this kind of bunny hopping. It's just like in Warsow, and that's one of two huge reasons I don't play Warsow: the movement is boring and shitty.

The reason people played Q3 over UT was in part because of brand recognition and identity. Its like when Blizzard makes a game, many people buy it because its Blizzard. Same thing with iD. It just so happens that Quake is an awesome game.

Epic was still not as big at the time or well known, even though the Unreal engine really pushed graphics at the time when Quake two was not long after release.

No doubt people made the decision for movement too.

Maybe back in the day, but I started playing Quake in 2008. That's long after graphics mattered. I played QL because my brother had played it, and I moved to Q3/went hardcore because of the physics. That people were still finding bugs, even in 2014 (I found one or two new ones this year), really intrigued me.

If I play an FPS, it's because it has very deep physics. Warsow does no have that. In Warsow, you hold +forward and +moveup to move as fast as possible. This is basically the same thing.

For high level strafe pads, there are plenty of nearly frame-precise movements that go into landing them. Things that require deep knowledge, and can't really be discovered just from playing a bunch, but as soon as you learn about them, they have an almost immediate effect.

I'm pretty sure warsow movement isn't that much simplified :E

Just scrap the bunnyhopping if you're gonna put it in like this, go for a sprint instead.

Other games have used this exact bhopping method and it did fuck all for noobs, and it breaks down and looks dumb once combat is mixed in. Go watch a painkiller match to see what I mean.

Sprinting matches the other game mechanics already in the game and makes more sense with the characters suit you talked so much about. You can even add louder footstep/suit sounds if you're worried about noobs getting stealth frags.

wallrunning/sprinting + quake 2's double jumps and ramp jumps would allow some sweet movement around maps.

We're working on it. We've come up with several potential solutions that we think could be really cool. When we get them programmed in, our system should make more sense and the foggy haze will be lifted as things progress.

I actually really like it. Speed increase seems gradual and I do totally agree with what you're saying about the complexity of strafe. It is impossible to appeal to the 'masses' with such a fundamental skill being so difficult to learn. You definitely have the right idea..

What are the limitations to the bunnyhop speed increase? Can you change direction dramatically and continue increasing speed? or is there a certain turn-point that slows you down? It may be at risk of becoming Painkilleresque otherwise, which IMO is not a good thing.

Would really love to try this out!!

And to add, a lot of people are talking about adding a 'sprint' button. I think the 'sprint' button would be tragic and totally break your game.

People are also suggesting that the skill of a players movement can give others insight in to what type of player they are etc etc. If you want a game decided on movement then you should play Defrag or a different game. It shouldn't be the difference between being an amateur and an expert at Nex, it should however leave room for creativity. Of course the creativity will depend on map design, and you will really need some extraordinary maps to make the game special and fun - I dare say getting the right maps is going to be harder than creating the physics.

Thanks for the kind words. :D Mapping for arena fps is stupid difficult, but I think we can make some pretty sweet maps for both the competitive and casual players.

I hope so! I look forward to your next update =)

ztn and dm6pls

That's the proper way to kill a new game.

Haha. Sorry but no remakes. It's time for a new map pool. Our ladder will rotate the map pool each season to keep things fresh. I'm tired of playing the same maps over and over for 10 years.

Me too. I hope that includes cpm maps as well.

The only exceptions I can think of are reviving maps that weren't in current games and also were underplayed at the time. For example the revival of phrantic in Q4 was awesome, but it'd be awful to see q1dm3 over and over again.

to be honest, its lead to incredibly boring stagnant games in Quake Live. I'll tune into Faceit if its on because they are the best when it comes to commentating. But even then I'm just not into watching Quake.

How people can play constantly on the same maps for 10+ years is beyond me.

i like how Blizzard is like "Screw you we're changing maps!" And look what awesome games Habitation Station has lead to due to a more unorthodox layout.

the same way people constantly play on the same pitches and fields for decades to hundreds of years. it seems difficult to believe that this concept is beyond you. it's more likely that your preference is to have new scenery, and your ego requires you to artificially value your perspective in the simplest fashion possible: dismissing the perspectives of others as incomprehensible and devaluing the experience with subjective pejoratives.

Exactly. As long as maps are balanced and fun/dynamic it simply becomes a means to an end. Its about the action on the pitch.

His mindset is different than ours. He went back to UT because he did not like the art style of Quake 3. At picmip 5 the game does not even have art. It's all about the gameplay baby!

It wasn't due to technical graphical things. Aesthetics mostly. The maps lacked a sense of originality and conceptual grandness from an artistic perspective. (They all where well designed for competitive play,d on't get me wrong) I just don't find dungeons, demons and all of that stuff cool. It just doesn't and has never appealed to me.

The Quake community never had god teir mappers like Inoxx, Hourences, El Chicoverde, Mysha and other top tier mappers out there.

As pretentious as it sounds, for me even an arena game can have conceptual grand maps that are a piece of beautiful architecture. People remember things like that.

Whenever people mention UT, they always bring up Facing Worlds and the song Foregone Destruction that accompanies that level.

Its just the perspective where I'm coming from, Quake maps are by no means bad, they just never where anything special from an art perspective. But there are some maps out there that are pretty unique.

When I make a map, I pick a theme, and then lay it out. according to that theme ina way that makes it fun to play.

Willits and ztn (the mapper) alone have made maps way, way more influential than anything that came from a UT mapper.

Though it has to be said I have no idea why #84 wrote that, because I share your thoughts on maps.
The principle is that a new game should have new maps, and we know that adding bloodrun and dm6 will necessarily make everyone play those instead of the new stuff. My only additions on this are the said exception as an idea that could be followed or not (reviving forgotten vintage stuff) and that I hope that the no past maps rule is followed with cpm and UT as well, meaning that if you follow your no quake3 rule that thought should extend to no cpm maps (not one) and no ut/2k4/etc maps at all, so everything is brand new.

It's a no old maps rule in general. I'm not making any old UT maps either. All of our maps are original to us and not from other games.

I happen to be a music producer and composer for 10 years. The difference is that those pitches can be comprised in different modes and orders.

Campgrounds is campgrounds. Its the same weapons and layout every time you play it. They all have an established effect on the gameplay and pace due to the design, and in the 10+ years there has been very little deviation in the way matches play out.

The comparison you are failing to make just doesn't hold up. In music I can assemble the pitches into phrases and chords in any order I want.

The maps often borderline force the player to play in a specific way. And that's fine as long as the map rotates out for a while and new ones are introduced to keep the game exciting and not stagnant.

In UT I love Facing Worlds, but I'm sick of playing that map and haven't touched it in forever.

Constantly changing map pools and unorthodox designs (now and then to mix it up, not only unorthodox maps) drives unique and interesting games to play and watch as a spectator.

Static map pools and unoriginal map design leads to stagnation.

It makes players learn and adapt to new strategies and allows for more room for people to reach pro level status by not being at a significant disadvantage because they haven't played that map for so many years. Its a more level playing field.It allows for new strategies and tactics. It gives Nex a psuedo-metagame.

It's more than just subjective. If Starcraft 2 players where still playing on Xel Naga Caverns that game would be dead before HoTS came out. LoL gets away without changing maps due to new character introductions, which in has a somewhat similar affect changing maps has on an arena FPS.

Project Nex is going to have a map pool that changes at least every other season with the ability to veto some maps you dislike.

"How people can play constantly on the same maps for 10+ years is beyond me."

It's because of bunnyhopping :D

Don't forget about clock going downwards : )))))))

Having the clock go forwards and backwards every so often could actually be pretty hilarious as an april fools joke.

Am I the only one who didn't find learning to strafe that difficult?

Agreed. I even brought 3 friends that had absolutely no background in any of the Quake title and after a short 20 sec explanation, they could strafe properly within the 10 next minutes... at least straight forward.

I mean, the only reason it appeared difficult is probably because at the time, nobody talked much about it and there wasn't a lots of documentation about it either. That mixed with the fact that most players learn the different aspects of a game on their own will, and might not feel the immediate urge to know this movement mechanic right away. As soon as one focus on it, it become really easy.

Please show me someone new to the game who doesn't understand strafe and teach it to them within 20 seconds. I've never seen this happen.

In my experience, its been the opposite. Easy execution is how the movement should be for Nex. The difficulty comes in our energy management and health and armor systems. To my knowledge we are the only arena FPS to attempt what we are doing.

The new controls put the experienced players and newbies on the same level in terms of relearning a new system. There's going tob e a lot of things that can break you out of your combo. And energy usage like wall slides too.

Movement should be a secondary thought for the competitive player, because in Nex you're going to have so much else to worry about.

Project Nex is not the place for strafe jumping, if people want that there is tons of other games that have copied it, and even more games by our competitors that are doing that.

I don't play any of those games because I don't enjoy them personally, it doesn't mean they are bad. But I'm wanting to craft a game I personally want to play.

I get that the Quake community has a strong bias for strafe jumping, I'm just not that guy. Nex is more unique to us and putting our own flair on existing mechanics.

It would be a dumb decision as a developer right now wanting to go with a Quake system. Reflex and Reborn are doing it. They're doing their on thing, and we're doing ours.

I'm confident that we are making the better choices, and they appeal to a broader audience.

Maybe you are replying to the wrong person? :P

I agreed with exactly what you are saying not many lines above!

Oh my bad. I'm tabbing between this and Unity every so often while working on stuff. Thanks for the heads up. xD

Well I have to say that they weren't really slow in the head either. They usually outperform the average players in most game they play because they actually try to use the mechanics to their full extend.

If I would have taken guys that never touched any FPS or any other game beside LoL or WoW, well then yeah, it would have been much harder.

Anyway, I don't really care that much if you believe me or not, I was there and saw it happen on my own :P

I basically said something in VCOM like, moving in two direction at once slightly increase your speed while in the air. Jump and look 30 degrees in the same direction as your strafing direction. Hold forward all the time and change strafing direction on each jump to keep going toward the same destination.

And boom, they could reach 800 ups on a small section of a map

You dont really have to give the exact details of how the strafing mechanics works, if they want to master it, they can look at it further on their own time. Please keep in mind that I didn't they say had completly learned how it worked, just grasped how it worked overall.

Also like I said, it used to be hard for us to even get how it exactly worked at the time, but we are in a different era now, with all the in-depth documentation and gigantic array of youtube tutorial.

Fair enough :) A lot of people I've 'taught' have been very new to gaming. But some also haven't been. Maybe I'm too critical on what constitutes 'teaching strafe'. No one seems to get the hang of a good CJ easily, but sure after several jumps they can hit 700-800ups.

Either way, unnecessary complication for any game in development imo... can't focus on creating something that people can't do well until practiced. I guess that's a reason we'll never get anything like strafe again, because it was an accident in the first place.

When did you start playing? In the beginning, everyone was fumbling into the technique through trial and error. No tutorials or explanations. The only model came from players flying around the map faster than you, so the first thing you notice is the jumping. You start jumping, moving the mouse erratically to recreate the movement. Slowly, you realize certain patterns gain and maintain speed. Refine the technique. Enter trick jumps. More refinement, more creativity constantly floods into the game. Enter defrag. You thought you knew how to manipulate the physics engine? How naive.

Today, a beginner might grasp the concepts to utilize the movement to a lesser extent after a few days thanks to resources provided by a community with a decade of experience. Will they master it? Nope. Are you or I in a position to claim we are masters? Nope. Have most players really mastered it past and present? Nope.

I started UT in 2002, but I like level design more than playing so mostly did that. Then in like 03 I played some Quake, but absolutely did not like the art style (and still feel this way) so I went back to UT.

Then I played some Quake again in 2010 and got to an above average level. I wanted to be a commentator/educator by making easy to understand videos and tutorials. But people wanted analytical stuff, and at the time my plan was to try to get new players into Quake Live. Then I got fed up and went to Starcraft 2. Which is my main game I play right now still. (Why did I choose Terran?!? Damn you Protoss!)

So I got pretty good at standard and CPMA, I don't enjoy defrag, but I respect it.

I wanted to be a commentator and educator of new people. Then after the Autum Duel League stopped, I lost my main commentating gig and just went to do other things. #lostpassion

Since I have an experienced background in studio and video, for Nex I'll probably do something similar for new players to make it even more accessible.

Then I played some Quake again in 2010 and got to an above average level.

So I got pretty good at standard and CPMA

With an Elo of 1093 you are per definition below average and pretty far away from "pretty good".

#shotsfired

also sauce?

sauce for what?

nvm, i'am dump

1093 omg leet rofl

You need to implement the "power" thing and cooldowns and show us that system.

Coming here with watered down quake mechanics is of course going to be greeted with "wtf you smoking".

However you seem to think that in the overall scheme of the game it will be fine. This is cool, but we have not seen that yet (i think?). How about you put that up so bunny hopping, limited dodging and armor/ammo management becomes understandable.

Because to this point everything is fairly.. "here is one bit it will work with others aspects but not the way you are seeing here!"

I am curious how this energy and health management works. I can't see how that will be "hard" like movement or aiming or timing. The first thing it reminds me of is raiding in wow - its not hard, but getting everyone to not stand in the fire can be challenging at times. Or build orders in RTS, you learn what to do and do it.

Someone up there mentioned sprinting - this is probably a good point. The OP rebuttal was "that is too sudden". The bunnyhopping displayed in the video is not accelerating, it looks "sudden" as well to me.

One last point - if this stays please allow players to queue their next dodge while in the air so they can transition from bh to dodge smoothly.

Thanks!

Yeah, once we get the energy stuff programmed in things will really fall together. Thanks for understanding that there is more to the system and this is only the exterior shell.

In our previous thread we did some good explanations of it. The TLDR; version if it is that everything is based around energy and energy pools. Suit has energy, weapons use energy, and movement uses energy. They are all split up. You can use energy from your suit/armor in favor of weapon energy when you run out in tough situations.

If your are exposed with no shields, you are very squishy.

This also allows us to make some pretty unique weapons to us. Soon we will have more to talk on that. It just takes time to program in.

That explains very little. To me it sounds like tie fighter - you could redirect energy from front to rear shields. Is it a nice mechanic? It worked well in tie fighter in 1994.

However it is difficult to see how this will add much depth to the game.

T I E F I G H T E R
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Closest thing to a flying simulator ive enjoyed enough to learn and play, so much keys lol, great game. This game influenced me so much that when i started playing quake with mouse, i did it with inverted y axis, and still do today.

Also make a map that is a map and isnt.. whatever that abomination you are running around.

Doesn't have to be pretty.

Isn't the difference between people who want to learn a skill and people who want to casually frag something that is resolved using skill tiers?

Or is it the intention to get people that don't put effort into the game to (give a chance to) win tournaments?

the intention is to make money by capitalizing on casuals making impulse purchases on steam.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. But the casual market does help drive success of many f2p games. But the difference with us is we don't exploit, nor do we hinder the pro level in favor of it.

One essential and one suggestion:

* You need to allow the user to hold a strafe key while 'strafejumping'. Having to go in the direction of the +forward is so fucking awkward. You want to be able to move in one direction but look at another, just like on the ground.

* Make the animation a running animation - Each of these jumps, it's actually a long stride from sprinting. I don't mean implement sprint, just use that as the animation. It makes way, way more sense.

The strafe key can be pressed to nudge direction. I was doing it in the demo now and then to help fix my trajectory.

.. and in a separate reply because, well, let's not interfere with the game feedback:

Stop being so arrogant towards the mechanics you're trying to take and simplify; towards the community that plays this game; and towards people who despite your comments will form a large part of your target audience if you make a half-decent game.

create hard to master, competitive game with developed mechanics that allow players to express themselves.

create easy to enjoy, casual gamemode with restricted mechanics that allow players to not be dominated.

casuals continue to play casual. casuals with a deeper interest in developing as a player can make the step up. skilled gamers can play the game to it's fullest potential.

i don't understand why you are trying to unite two conflicting ideas. one limits the other.

on movement... you have to earn every unit of speed when strafe jumping, which is what creates such disparate movement abilities between players. it's the poor explaination and highlighting of such an essential skill that is the biggest reason for it being difficult to learn for new players. provide a good front end with excellent presentation of mechanics and you give players the power to learn something you might otherwise deem as 'too complex'.

this thread seems to be the opposite of this: http://www.esreality.com/post/2532500/omg-it-s-real/

people first said having movement is bad because it kills other skills in the game, now people say that if you take away the movement it's bad because it's the core skill of deathmatch. Damn you ESR.

It's DEFINITELY good to see different deathmatch projects with different approaches, just let it flow and we'll see what happens.

Thanks for a more unbiased response. I think the majority of people liking Reflex is because it doesn't deviate from the status quo so far from what they've shown. That doesn't mean the game will be bad by any stretch if the imagination. But will it really feel and look new? That is the question, the same applies to us on Nex with feeling new and original.

the difference is that they have a design direction, and you clearly don't. making random changes like this out of no where months in development suggests that your maps, gameplay, and weapons really... you're just winging it.

We do, its just we wanted to be transparent. All games internally go through things like adding and removing mechanics and adjusting things. Rather than post on ESR we are just going to make a focus group of people who genuinely want to help.

all of your current assets (read: maps, weapons, other movement) are suddenly of a different quality now. especially the movement tutorial you showed some time ago. this and i'm almost certain your game has never enjoyed high-end players trying it out. why don't you go through more than a month or so of something other than "internal arbitrary massively game-redefining modifications" before making another "press release."

at this rate, your next posting will be to say that it's going to be an rts, and you've added troop management to the ui.

A MOBA would be the way to go actually.

also ive noticed that youre not using ao. are you aware that ao is the way to go? just ask minecraft!

We should switch to Java!

also become fat and swedish!

Such constructive criticism. I like the updates that we are being shown... I think it's damn cool that we get to see what the physics are going to be like. Who cares if there is still a lot of work to be done, it's nice they are bothering to make the connection with the community so they can try to get things right now instead of make huge changes when the game is released after what would be an even bigger 'shitstorm'.

Look on the bright side, unlike Nadeo working on Shootmania - this developer obviously listens to a lot of feedback AND takes it on board. Not sure what you're trying to achieve by writing this stuff, sounds like you don't want them to develop a game in the first place.

yeah, my posting has a negative tinge to it.

but if you need this much communal hand-holding to move through this little development, you're going to end up backed into a corner with 50 moderately interested players all telling you contradictory things the first time you release anything substantial that "you haven't really thought all the way through." and you can basically cut that down by half the minute you change anything.

these "testing the waters" posts are ridiculous. no matter what all these people say on esreality and your subreddit, what people want is a game that works properly. they'll claim preference, and they'll claim better-ness, and they'll claim skill-ity, but if the game works properly, people will play it. and especially people will play it if it's qualitatively better than what's already out there.

concretely though, at a glance, they should count themselves lucky if this game even works as instagib.

obviously this game has a ton of development still to go through, but I think the point of all this is to create something that doesn't appear to be a regurgitation of a previous fps title.

It isn't based on these forum posts whether or not a lot of people are going to play the game, that's an entirely different story. A marketing story at that.

Maybe a good idea would be for the team to start getting a team of testers as soon as possible, from various different gaming backgrounds.

It's easy to be sceptical, but being a sceptic and an asshole about it is definitely not going to do anyone any favours :)

i've censored myself here, talking paragraphs. the point is, if you take this engineering strategy. let's call if "iterative cloud coding" the only solid signal you might find from the posters as a whole is "a regurgitation of a previous fps title." marketing-wise, quit while you're ahead. building a team of beta-testers? well, i don't see a signup anywhere, just a bunch of annoying social-media tactics, and terrifying design 180s that suggest there isn't even any secret-sauce to back all this ground-beef up. plus this thread hasn't yet improved their r/projectnex subscriber bottom-line, so 153 players might be critical mass. have they considered that to playtest they have to fund as many servers as they allow players? how about that $20 has to cover peak server usage (not average.) these games are really quite niche, and even AAA titles with the throw of a company like id software fall off the radar within a couple of months, regardless of technical excellence.

on a scale from fluffy kittens to two girls one cup, i find this thread to be "hello my future girlfriend" offensive. if it were simply a beta client with a couple of servers posted here, i'd give it about an "adventure time gif" offensive.

every early access developer I've followed that tried to keep a constant dialogue with the community has drew the line at some point. it's a resource for sure but I guess you should just make the game you want to make.

my first thought when i saw your game was ultrono arena

Why would you not just make all these sprint bhop double jump whatever special bangers available to toggle on/off on servers during beta once the game gets to that stage and let the ppl playtest the s*****t out of it so you can figure what's the most viable way to spice things up?

We've got other systems that conflict with the idea of sprinting, really I can't do anything but promise you we will listen and once we get the beta into the hands of players, they will understand why we do things and what we need to change better.

Maybe you should experiment with the concepts of 'promode' and 'casual' within your game. Still looks great, but what initially attracted me to your game was the complex and varied movement mechanics. I don't think this wrecks that completely, but I think having elements of a game that you have to practice to master is one of the most rewarding aspects of a game, and I think oversimplifying acceleration is contrary to that.
Regardless, still a step in the right direction.

The trick of making an attractive casual game is essentially telling a white-lie to the playerbase, convincing them that learning & mastering are one and the same. But I promise you the amount of play-styles people will comeup with will blow your mind, and the learning curve for pro play will be almost ridiculous once people master our system.

Honestly this looks like it could be really cool.. we all know how much we need a new arena shooter but i really dont like one thing that you said... something along the lines of "people shouldnt gain an advantage for being able to pull off something hard to do mechanically" that really put me off.. that means you have the same mindset as the developers that make the terrible horrid fps games these days like call of duty etc where there is no skill element that separates good from bad players....

being able to have great movement skills in quake and counter strike was actually considered a skill because they were things you could learn and practice and become better then someone else at which gave you more options to your playstyle etc... its an element that helps separate decent from great players.. why does everyone say games like quake and counter strike were/are sooo much better then horrible boring games like call of duty etc? because there were so many elements to learn which gave the game alot more replay value and also made the skill ceiling wayyy higher which drove you to keep learning and getting better which again adds into the replay value and the overall "fun" of the game and on a competitive side again helps give players distinctive playstyles...

in modern shooters these elements are gone which makes the gameplay bland and boring and just horrible.. games like call of duty are 100% aim based because there simply are no "tricks" to learn and it feels like there is nothing to learn in the game.. nothing to practice or get better at and nothing to separate you from other players... its basically a blender of people spraying at eachother

very long winded and unedited but i hope i get the point across... theres a reason why the older arena shooter games and games like counter strike are considered legendary in terms of gameplay so i hope you dont make the same mistakes that modern developers are making which is just giving everyone "instant gratitude" basically meaning they dont have to strive to learn anything in the game they just run around and shoot.. because that makes the game fun for about 5 minutes (theres a reason call of duty has to release a new game every year and 500 dlc's in that year just to keep people playing)

"people shouldn't gain an advantage for being able to pull off something hard to do mechanically"
This line makes my skin crawl, being the lead programmer for nex, I promise you that was simply a poor choice in words. I promise you that our mechanics are easy to learn, Some of our mechanics are so difficult to master it might take years before anyone even notices there are hundreds of ways to use everything.

Long story short my friend, Mastering anything in nex is an illusion, you might think you've figured it out but there will always be someone better then you. :) I hope that answers any questions.

If you find the mechanics of strafe or bunny hopping to complex and involved for your intended player base, then why even have a simpler variant of it?

The beauty of quake is gradually mastering several separate aspects which blend together to form the 'strength' of your game, of which this journey is near endless. Rapha, Toxjq and W3sp can still improve aspects of their game in which they are world leaders in.

Grasping the basic mechanics of strafe jumping is one of the first hurdles a new player must overcome, and then the next, and then the next...

This is the main appeal of quake; the high difficulty and learning curve of the game is what makes it so satisfying when you master something, or beat a strength of player you've never beaten before.

And then we watch in awe when the best in the world duke it out, displaying great aim, strategical awareness and general ability within the game. We appreciate what they can do, because we know the difficulty of the tasks the are performing.

So, if you are not targeting the audience of quake players and their associated deathmatch games (WsW, UT, PK etc), who are you targeting?

If you are not after this type of player, then you need to give the player immediate satisfaction by achieving something within the game environment, as they certainly won't be willing to even learn how to bunny hop around a variety of maps with proficiency, so you need something that is incredibly easy to use and get started with, but still has a (minor..) level of depth and skill required to master.

How about just increasing the run speed that has a 'speed build' like in doom, and again you have to 'brake'. This means you still have to think about your movement when playing a proper duel, but the noobie can run around at the same speed as the pros, but he still gets caught out by better play. The current implementation just seems a compromise that suits neither end of the spectrum, and a movement mechanic that no one will appreciate. Regardless, I wish you luck with your endeavour, and it will be interesting to see what you settle upon :-)

Thank you so much for such a detailed comment, I'm recording a new video soon explaining things in a different light and I'm hoping to clear up all the misconceptions people are coming up with.

I think increasing movement speed is an easy way out of the issue, I've already made note of this in my documents many thanks for mentioning it to me. :)

Too bad, looked somewhat promising ;P

You added something that takes absolutely no skill and adds nothing to the game?

Nice job idiot, why don;t you just increase the default move speed, it achieves everything you want and doesn't add any bullshit.

Sounds like a good idea, lets do it. How much speed increase? I think like a 500% increase is the proper way to go.

You're really coming across like a passive aggressive arsehole in this thread fyi

I respond strongly, I'm an asshole. I try to lighten up and joke with people, I'm a passive aggressive asshole.

Don't worry, I've learned my lesson with ever posting a thread on ESR, I won't make that mistake again.

You were doing pretty well until you posted this video :)

We're still doing fine. Greenlight is still getting tons of positivity from gamers and we destroyed the timelimit in getting greenlit.

Its why I'm not worried about ESR's negative response when overall everyone else is all for Nex.

Warsow also had very good and numerous feedback on Greenlight. That doesn't mean lots of people will play it.

Haha here it is. Maybe next time you should specify that you are only looking for positive feedback, or else put on your big boy pants and try to cope with the fact that people don't agree with you.

It's funny that you think it's impossible to not come across as an asshole when responding to criticism of your game. I wonder how other people manage it?

I'm looking for reasonable feedback. not people slinging personal insults. You say I cant take criticisms. Yet I make legit criticisms about strafe jumping and now the ESR community thinks I insulted their mother. Actually, that would get less of a reaction probably.

Like I said, I'm never post anything about Nex here personally ever again. If a fan does, fine. But never again.

Criticisms are one thing. Saying it's overly complex/awkward for a newcomer, sure you might have a point there. But writing off the movement system of quake as something fanboys will use to stomp newcomers is another thing. From the start it kinda makes you look like you got a chip on your shoulder.

Haha you fucking baby. Why do you keep telling us you won't post about it on esr again? Is it important to you that we know you are "punishing" us? I wonder if these ego-centric tendencies have anything to do with how this thread went.

Just look through the insults.

ESR feedback is extremely valuable imo.

If you disagree with most of the responses, who cares? It's your game not ours. It's still good to hear the feedback though.

If I didn't think ESR was worth posting to, I wouldn't post here.

I was responding to:

"Like I said, I'm never post anything about Nex here personally ever again."

You act a lot like that Tidal Blast guy who thinks he is going to make a good game alone and becomes a sniffling baby when met with any resistance. I'm glad the project is in more capable hands beyond your own because the petulance you've displayed here is more than enough for it to be dismissed.

Except in the first post when we unveiled the game. Im sorry people can't handle me critiquing the perfectest game ever Quake. Time will prove me right leaving out strafe jumping was the right choice.

another dead game incoming

daed gaem

Can't tell if I'm on ESR or the SC2 subreddit.

would love to see how people on steam respond to the dev's being such immature dicks

Not contradicting you and anyone else saying the same thing you did, but gotta admit that you need nerves of steel once you start talking to "gamers" hahaha. Best advice would be to almost never communicate with communities. Oh well...

Even on our forums and subreddit even a discourse like the one here would be kept up and nothing removed.

I could imagine what it is like to be someone like Richard Lewis, the crap he deals with on a daily basis. No wonder why he's always drinking on Unfiltered.

Like Destiny says, its all about riding the circlejerk, this time I happened to go upstream.

i feel kinda ashamed because of people like Dynamix posting this insulting kind of bullshit.

i have no clue about this whole "programming a game" stuff, movement-mechanics, physics and all the other stuff nearly everyone seems to be an expert in here on this forum.
but is it necessary to have the same movement-style for all of your races?
would it be possible to let every race have their own movement-style or would it be to difficult to avoid one race being "overpowered"?

i like your work so far!

Thanks for the kind comments.

I am not fond of the idea of races having different stats and so on. I get what you are going for but its unlikely we'd go that route.

I posted it like that because it's ESR, I don't actually think that badly of him, I just think that he's a bit misguided in his efforts.

Basically I don't think having 'hard' movement is an issue, I don't think the game being hard to learn is an issue at all, however I can totally understand not wanting people to have to learn a movement skill to compete as it could frustrate some people.

That said, I think adding a pale imitation of skill based movement, especially his way of doing it is just adding a bit of tedium to the game, if you want them to be able to move faster with no effort on their part then just make them move faster.

But yeah, I find this idea ridiculous.

Well, after reading PrettyAwesomes comments in this thread, about movement/weapons/maps etc i lost all hope for this game.

None of the rest of the team will touch this thread after this reaction. I can't blame them to be honest.

O'rly? They seem like the only ones who can take some criticism on the chin and evaluate their position on the design decisions, they are the only ones worth talking too because of it. Your dreams and vision is getting in the way of seeing things clearly, and your defensive attitude is not doing you and your team any favours.

Hello there everybody, I'm one of the members on the development team for Project Nex.

While I feel this video has perhaps raised more questions than it has answered which was sadly not it's intended purpose. I would like to just clear up as much as I can.

I just want to start by saying that we are still in early development on Project Nex. Much of what you can see is subject to change. We are developing a game for the community, not just for ourselves. We are very open to feedback, and feedback will always help shape the direction we take Nex. We know what we want from the game and how to get there, but at the end of the day it is the FPS community we are developing the game for. Positive or negative, we do take your responses on board.

We are anxious not to oversimplify the game, and keep a healthy balance between accessibility and keeping the skill ceiling high enough to cater for a competitive aspect of Nex's community, while still being a title that can bring new fans to the genre by it's intuitive mechanics and enjoyable gameplay.

We are not trying to go the same way as our competitors. Rather than try and become the next Quake or UT and replace the current competitive community, we are trying to build our own IP that can cater for both the current Arena-FPS fans as well as general FPS tans that have not had a taste for the high octane action that is Arena-FPS.

We are going to release a further video explaining the movement mechanics in a little further detail to explain why we have chosen to go in the direction we have chosen to go in. We are aware we are not going to please everybody, so if you do have any suggestions on what you feel you'd like to see in the title than we would be happy to hear it at [email protected].

I thank you for taking the effort to take a look at the project and leave your comments on here, and I am available to answer any questions you may have.

please continue posting updates on esr. it's important to combat the echo chamber effect that sites like reddit allow for, especially when, as developers and designers, you're passionate about what you believe is good, and backpatting non-confrontational support is easy to find. understand that downplaying the value of an essential component of a game older than an eighth of humanity on a site old enough to attend high school is an approach that will necessarily result in negative confrontation. if it's necessary to call other games or players out when publicizing your game, there is something rotten in your philosophy.

Or the echo chamber effects I'm hearing here on ESR. I prefer the reddit echo chamber.

why aren't you the one posting here instead of PrettyAwesome ? you seem like a much more down to earth guy and by this one comment you raised my hopes for Nex again, your attitude is just $$$, gj man.

Fix the name, I thought this shit was about Nexiuz the whole time.. Is it? if not what the fuck. Come up with something catchy and chill to grab casuals, but have deep gameplay and physics that will allow people to get really good (keep them segregated, can't have the sheep with the wolves)

gg everyone loses
...

Taking advice from ESR is futile since this website is heavily biased towards Quake 3. The far majority of people here think that Quake 3 is the perfect FPS, so most likely these people will give you advice that will only make your game closer to a Quake 3 clone, and nobody here respects or plays any of the "clone games" (e.g. Warsow). Another problem with getting advice from here is that it will mostly be towards promoting gameplay mechanics that increase gameplay depth, which does nothing to enhance the casual gamer's experience who should be your target demographic anyway.

If you want people to play a death match shooter, I think you have to dumb down the game severely. I think games like Weapons of Destruction X (mod for Quake 2) appeal casual players more, since they are easy and quick for casual players to get into.

this is just plainly not true. warsow is mentioned positively in this thread, and even a guy who came out against warsow admitted that it's probably his personal preference that keeps him from appreciating it. there are comments supporting the development of this game, and supporting the developers doing something divergent from quake.

just because you want to focus on the things that you presume to be negative does not mean that the things you presume to be negative are all that exist. it's a destructive cognitive bias to have.

"warsow is mentioned positively in this thread"
ye but its not played

Warsorw is a great game, but I understand why people prefer Quake. It's simple, Quake's core gameplay is good enough to still be enjoyable, and the aesthetics of the game are bastly superior to the (in my opinion) extremely annoying aesthetics seen on Warsow. I cant stand the graphics and sound choices made on that game. Deal with it.

I disagree.

A lot of us played all the quake games, UT, painkiller and more.

We don't think any of them are perfect, but those games had a lot of great ideas that could be expanded upon.

I think the Painkiller bunnyhop is most intuitive. My Gf doesn't have a clue about strafejumping but can easily navigate through the maps in PK. Good decision.

What's shocking about this thread that TidalSoul (?) hasn't tried it to take it over, and make it about Deft Grinders :)

My guess is he saw this thread already has sufficient self-righteousness and narcissism as is.

Going to assume you want to tie the bunnyhopping into your stamina system.
If so i would urge you not too and consider having weapons slow or impair in someway and have your wall jump/dash work as a speed multiplier of sort.

I agree with your decision to simplify the mechanic as i have done the same myself, strafe jumping in essence adds nothing when you have mastered it, so simplifying it by having it be one key stroke does no difference to the "skill level" in the long run..

mastering jumping?
is such a thing even possible?

Relative term, nothing else to add or is this everything esreality has to offer these days?

trolls and whiners ;)

I won't show you my tits you perv

There we go :)

I can't handle your swaggetry bro.

Nice trolling m8

Because there was reddit talk in this thread I decided to check it out.

PrettyAwesome comes across as an "artist" in this thread, talking about maps being pretty and whatnot. Same on reddit. Here is a gem from there..

"Project Nex wont have picmip abilities. I just cant allow it. Even though I use those settings personally in Quake."

He can't allow it because it makes maps "ugly". Nice.

Good choice.

As long as everything is clear(Hi PK) picmip shouldn't matter.

That's like saying:
"I'm faggot"
wow
:)

As others have said, looks like painkiller jumping.

Dude stop shilling your fucking dumbed down game for the masses philosophy. This is ESR, started when COD didn't exist. We are all about hardcore quick gameplay with hard learning curve that makes you nervous as fuck to watch tied matches because you know how hard it is to do what these people are doing, you feel that adrenaline rush when your favorite player made a comeback and is running low on health and is running away as far as possible while shooting flick rails to try to stop the enemy which is stacked on health and armor. All this shit isn't possible if what you need to move around is press W and jump. Don't get me started on automatic timing and shit like that which I predict will be the norm on the next games that try to be "the quake for the new generations".
And no, strafejumping is totally intuitive and cool to do once you know how to do it. Bunnyhopping (as seen in CPM and QW) too. Fuck pleasing the masses. Would rather have a 200 people community of people that appreciate hard learning curves and enjoy the results of being good at it and appreciate the top talents vs the dumbed down make money on tournaments approach.

You might rather have 200 people playing a hard game, but I think the developers want to make something that's actually going to create a monetary return on their time investment.

Compared to a lot of other games, this is only slightly 'dumbed down' (from what we can tell on the updates we've been given).

Thank you for actually getting it. <3

Honestly I think it's a fallacy that "casual" games get more players at all, good games get players.

CS is the king of FPS by miles, it's the hardest mainstream one that still exists.

You can make an argument for LoL being more popular than the rest of the moba games, but DotA is still insanely huge compared to 99% of other games.

SC2 is dumbed down compared to its predecessor and it's way less popular than Brood War was, but still one of the hardest games around and still one of the biggest eSports scenes even if the scene doesn't compare in size.

WoW basically peaked as a game and player size when it was way more hardcore.

If you made a good, modern Quake game, still hard as fuck and preferably F2P, it would be one of the most popular games around easily.

Hardcore game play. is not the reason people don't play arena games anymore

I agree with you, This is a much larger debate which I plan on making a video about. :) stay tuned

good points

As you said, lots if not most popular games on the PC that aren't on facebook are quite 'hardcore', so the myth is immediately debunked. Actually unlike QL those popular games embrace challenge, making it a core part of the game with ranked play and others, whereas here everything is hidden from the general public. People actually like challenges, if not more than what QL provides.

I'll add that the 'hardcore' (stubborn really) crowd is not really hardcore, but in reality they are defending their preferences and particular games instead.
CA has almost 10 times the activity of tdm and ctf combined, according to qlranks. CA is considerably less 'hardcore' than those named games and named mods. With that said, do current quake players really like hardcore gameplay as much as this community thinks they do? If they did they would play mods with items, but they mostly don't.
Furthermore the 'hardcore' crowd of ESR is tied to QL, however QL is not the most hardcore quake of them all by any means. Actually QL is equally or less so than other current games or activities (c'mon it's a mere videogame). With that said, does the hardcore quake crowd really like hardcore games? They aren't playing QW or chess so I'd guess they don't, just like super serious dota players aren't playing scbw. Actually lots of stubborn people here and in other places aren't good players to begin with, 'hardcore' players.

As a third point, if you were to try to compare the difficulty of games as a whole in the end the conclusion is always that everything is hard, complex and competitive at a high level.

Finally, some mechanics and implementations of them aren't inherently better for a game. Quality wise what matters is the game as a whole. Just adding stuff for the sake of it does not make a good game, and at the same time having everything in their most complex form is not inherently good or bad. Quake3 movement is not necessarily the panacea of Nex.


The reasons why QL did not do well go beyond difficulty and other discussed aspects. The roots are the merits of the game itself, advertisement and accessibility to it. QL is a mere tech and business experiment of a company stuck in the past, nothing more. How could it succeeded with the current competition.
Lets put it this way to nemecel: compared to current AAA videogames and considering every aspect, fun included, as a quake outsider which grade would you give QL in 2014? To me it's a 7/10 at best so might as well play something else instead. Secondly, that question doesn't even matter if the game is still relatively unknown, there are no friends to play with and it's unbelievable obnoxious and tedious to start playing and continue to do so. Thirdly, QL is one of the most expensive games out there as well, probably the most expensive fps of them all considering it's pretty much mandatory to have at least a premium account or great friend list. So far it's been almost 4 years with this model so $48 of pro = $192, with no added microtransaction, dlc items to at least enjoy really premium content and be able to sell the account to earn something back.
To put some examples, SC2 and CS:GO are similar sequels to their predecessors, similar to QL. However, both outsold and have way higher activity many times over than QL. The differences are those games are not practically a copypaste of their 1999 versions like QL is to Q3 but are new games instead, then they were advertised everywhere (buses and steam), easy to start playing (in QL a big percentage of accounts have no matches at all), they are made to get you hooked (in QL people leave immediately. The game is not appealing), and are way cheaper. In short, SC2 and CS:GO are up to 2014 standard, QL is not even in one individual aspect.

Kind of the general public/gaming press' view of FPS games I guess.

I can give you only one advice, PrettyAwesome: leave all community interaction to the other devs, they're much better at it.

Totally.

Nah.

nice of you to prove my point. Someone with a good sense of public relations wouldn't even respond to me. I'm just a random poster, I can be as childish as I want. You have an image to maintain.

Nah

idc about adding bunnyhopping ala warsow newmovement/painkiller style, i wouldn't mind it, but jesus fucking christ prettyawesome's view of strafing is retarded

I'm not the only one on the team who thinks the same thing. I'm the only one willing to state my thoughts. The Quake butthurt is strong in this thread.

indeed the quake butthurt is strong in this thread.



























































































but what would u expect when bashing strafing etc on a quake website ?

OT: i hope your movement is similar to PKs, dat shyt is gr8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyNFSzwTtF8

ITT

to sum up: idiot quakers are idiots

- just because a game isn't a quake clone doesnt mean its inferior
- vq3/ql strafe jumping is shit & a skill unbalancer...I've played for years now & play most nights (although PQL) and vanilla movement still feels shit & people still move better (advantage from movement rather than positioning)
- movement in PK was cool so it should be equally cool here
- only PQL/CPM movement is good in quake...vanilla movement is aids...only people playing the same game for 15 years & unwilling to try new ways say otherwise
- a bunny hop is a bunny hop...quakers invented fuck all:


I hope you dont change to some shitty mouse/direction BS like quake...otherwise I have no reason to choose nex over quake

I could never imagine bunnyhopping on a bike like that. I tried bmx and never liked it, plus I'm too skinny and not enough upperbody strength to do that type of stuff. Thankfully I liked skateboarding more.

I should change my terminology from bunnyhopping to olliehopping for maximum overustle.

Have you seen the kids that BMX these days? The bikes have become lighter than skateboards. They're all twigs! I've seen 70lb kids bhop tailwhip up a 2 stair.

>muh opinion

If everyone will instantly be able to accelerate at the same pace without actually having to learn anything new, what's the point of it anyway? Basically everyone who knows what an FPS is will have this movement mastered in 5 minutes (giving them an unfair advantage over people who never touched a PC before who might just take a staggering 24 hours).

As far as movement goes, the sense of satisfaction, sense of achievement, practice and perfection of execution, and desire for improvement will all be next to non-existent, in my opinion, and this is a key element for a successful arena shooter.

Your arguments for removing any advanced movement technique from an arena shooter (a genre where quake set the industry standard, tried and tested formula more than a decade ago) could be applied to aim, positioning, or even map knowledge. Using the same logic you could make similar arguments for adding aim assist, wallhack and a mini-map so that there are no advantages over new players in these areas either. Why should players need "months" to learn how to aim? Why should players need "months" to learn how to position themselves or learn sound cues? Why should players need "months" to learn maps inside-out?

So, why not allow both types of movement instead? Allow this type of simplified movement (which would actually be a great idea as an intermediate method of gaining speed), and then incorporate circle/strafejumping. Not only will it give the game depth, and all the aforementioned senses of achievement, improvement, desire to learn more, to perfect etc, but also because this is one of the five key elements of what makes an arena shooter fun in my opinion (maps, weapons, sounds, movement, atmosphere). If you take away just one of these elements, the game is flawed at best, and shit at worst, for me.

Actually I wouldn't mind seeing just a simple +forward+jump style acceleration added to QL to help newbs get into the movement more, but just having this type of movement alone, together with the arguments you raised, for me this is a step in the direction of an arena shooter future equivalent of the film Idiocracy.

And yes, I'm a butthurt quaker and proud of it \:D/

Retarded. The difficulty with strafe jumping is whats awesome.

Making the game ez so that pussies wont have to put any time whatsoever into it.

all those ignorant exaggerations..
the point is having the possibility to get faster from A to B with giving away more sounds and the option to do so within a short time afterwards, that's nothing!? not every fucking thing is purely about competition. he said before that the competitive aspect of this game is supposed to be weapon/energy usage and other aspects rather than the movement. they seem aware of its skill effect regarding the movement but atm they prefer it that way. could u plx accept that as a view at least? no1 wants bomberman/cs to be about jump techniques either, is that necessairly a crime against humanity?
(btw movement=/=bunnyhop anyway. it still has dodging, walljump and wallslide (iirc). combining and executing all that stuff properly and at the right places is still gonna take more pracctice than just pressing w.)

(and the freaking fuck, he alrdy stated several times that, in his oppinion, the typical quake-movement simply doesn't fit the the sort of gameplay they want to create with their weapons (/energy system). could u plx take that into fucking consideration and just accept other views? stuff like strafejumping/cj prolly isn't the grale for every game. indeed it's a bit weird that he adds exactly the tool of jumping to travel faster though, but whatever. u guys ain't bringing up any new arguments, u're (mostly) just repeating and bashing his PREFERENCE since 150 comments. awkward.)


though i love strafejumping and bunnyhop a huge lot it would imo be totally fucked up to implement these techniques (especially cj) in a game that aims to be a big new title. it's just totally fucked up if there s a new game on the market and some ppl are alrdy mastering its complex movement system alrdy (cuz they re doing the same shit since 15years), while the new guys gonna need a lot of time to learn. if i was giving a new (esports) game a real try and experienced this, i'd be pissed and probably turn away. it's a big and obvious competition advantage with the potential to cause a lot of upset. imo it's not the way to go for new arena shooters, unless u are a fan of the "keep new competitors away from the genre with good ol instant rape" tactix.
having said that i gotta admit that i wouldn't mind having a way deeper jump technique for acceleration. i've been playing some arena shooters for years and i always enjoyed the time racing from A to B inbetween fights a lot more than the combats themselves. i think going for the old stuff would be a fatal error though.