The palestinians never understood this and keep attacking Israel.
Well surprise, Israel attacks back and since all the militants live in heavily populated civilian centers, innocents die.
But its palestinian freedom fighter groups or terrorists or whatever's fault because they continue to provoke Israel.
You all seem to expect that a highly developed and militarized country wont defend itself which is just retarded
how many innocent people have died to israel when fighting terrorists organizations in the last 10 years? i promise you that much more then the innocent palestinians that have been killed so far.
Politics do not have much to do with morals.
If someone can't look after themselves or even ask for help, taking authority of looking after them is justified but from what you've been saying would be illegitimate.
The only reason your arguments of authority go in circles is because you simply proclaim all authority of illegitimate park the bus.
Who and what do you think will determine that outcome?
LOL What? No one gets authority by *claiming* it??
Legitimacy? Whatever I say is legitimate is legitimate.
Seriously, do you like think there is a God who watches over humans are released his god stick to chosen reps? ...
Thats the dumbest and most naive thing I've ever heard. One who can force someone to do something automatically has authority over them, regardless of the force they used.
Those who figure out how to control and manipulate biggest masses of people and resources are the ones who have most authority.
And no one just 'goes along with it'.
same with any territory, object, world, anything.
society is your 'admin' in the real world.
Christ, illegitimate according to WHOM?
There is NO legitimate or illegitimate authority out there. Whoever makes the law and CAN ENFORCE as a fact DEFINES THAT.
ITS A FUCKING FORCE OF NATURE
Do you think its like not divided among people who forced it from other people??
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST I CANT BELIEVE THIS
You think you CHOOSE not to let society own you? You think you can EXIST outside of it? Where were you born? What are you eating? Where do you sleep, work, learned your language?
You don't think natural selection is not real?
Do you think if you own any land in NA it's legitimate?
Who and what decides that?
Probably from looking out of the window, knowing whats going to happen if I decide to not pay my bills, stuff like that.
I don't think the police will care what you think you don't have to do when they come and cart your ass off to jail when you decide not to live by this societies rules.
I also don't think you could have decided not to be born, not to be taught English, etc.
You exist because this society produced you,..
Either you exist according to the societies rules, enjoying the freedom that it allows you to have, based on your behavior, just like you exist within the laws of physics, or you don't exist at all.
No other country would have done so much for people who refuse to recognize them and their right to live.
And it's nice to see that esr users can reply to the point. you are so biased against israel and brain washed by your media it's just pointless to discuss it with you.
Also that statement about Jews needing their own country is just bullshit. I don't blame the Jews, I blame the USA and Europe for basically exiling Jews far away, but the notion that a certain ethnic group needs their own country is just disgusting (not even close to the concept of the Sacred Land, but close).
if the media would have been pro-israelish first thing there weren't so many jew haters around the whole world
second you woulden't see so many protests around europe against Israel actions, and you probably woulden't see this thread as well, it's as simple as that.
Our country may hurt some innocent people but thats war, the Hamas brought it on themselves and their citizens. i remind you again that around 80% of the casualties in Gazza are Hamas operatives, you call this a genocide? check your dictionary. Israel had more innocent civilians deaths then the palestinian in the past 3 years, in the war against Hizbullah and now against Hamas, so that's must be a genocide too according to your glossary, isn't it?
I didn't say Jews aren't allowed to live at all, nor did I say they couldn't live in Europe or the USA. Of course they could stay in Europe and the USA and that's where they should have stayed instead of lobbying for a territory in the Middle East for stupid religioous reasons.
And I'm not saying that Israelis should just leave the place, I'm saying that the first thing Israel should do to show good faith is dismantling all the settlements and returning the occupied territories after the declaration of independence (at the very least, the partition plan is how everything should have stayed).
I honestly think it's Israel's goal to wipe the Palestinians from the holy land, as it has been the goal of the Zionism from the very beginning. Of course they won't admit that (well, some of the Prime Ministers did in the past), they'll just keep massacring them and calling it "legitimate defence" so they don't get shit from the international community or lose USA support, which right now is the only thing keeping Israel from joining the likes of Iran in terms of dangerous countries.
The whole world knew nothing about the Jews needing their own state, they just knew they didn't want them in their countries. Now, why didn't they go to an unpopulated place instead of invading other people's land and claiming independence? Because they didn't need their own country, they just wanted to settle down in the land of a few fairy tales regardless of the people already living there.
Also it would be funny if all ethnic groups used your rationale and started claiming the territories where they used to be thousands of years ago, maybe basing it on books with no historic validity like the Bible.
There is a difference between the desirable and the available. I'm sure the Palestinians dosen't want any Jews in Palestine as well, and they would gladly wipe us out if they could, same goes the other way.
The whole world supported the jewish country initiative back then
because palestine wasn't a damn country, and because it suited perfectly for the Jews also considering religion.
All ethnic groups lost 6 million people over an area as big as europe in a period of 5-6 years? the Jews lived peacefully in europe UNTIL the holocaust, not claiming independent country, they had no need for one untill Hitler took the rule over Germany and started to systematically killing them.
i dont think everything my country is doing is right, but what you dont understand is how neccesary was this operation to retrieve security to the israeli southren towns which was assaulted with no clear reason by the Hamas for the last 8 years, [...]
Jewish people lived on the israeli land before the palestinian, after the holocaust everyone agreed that
jewish people should have a country of their own and the chosen region was israel, there was
no palestinian country back then on the land on israel and we didn't stole anything.
but the surrounding muslim countries didnt liked that decision and opened an attack over the 2 days old israeli country, and israel prevailed while also conquering the palestinian regions.
And the only way for "religion to die" or "it to end" is to kill of every human.
when i see headlines that are using words like "MASSACRE" and "GENOCIDE" in gazza it's just driving us israelies mad. Seems like most of the press forgot to mention that 80% of the killed palestinian are MEMBERS OF A TERROR ORGANIZATION
the jewish people had the right more then anyone else to have a country of their own, after the holocaust it was obvious and logical.
dont give me the history bullshit because the important thing is that according to that time it was the ideal place to set up a country for the Jews, a thing which was neccesary.
And according to the bible
- No Region at all, they could have lived anywhere really why did they need their own country to control?
I can't recall there being much anti-semitism (in comparison to Germany or the middle east) in the UK/France. And lets get one thing straight it's not like Jewish populations have ever faired well under Arab rule either.
How comes there are populations of Jews in Europe today? Looks like they didn't all want to leave. What about the USA?
Zionism began before the Holocaust mate.
After 1945 the nazis were gone from most of Europe, and certainly weren't in any situation where they would be able to persecute Jews.
So basically, despite apparently being hated, almost exterminated and no longer wanting to stay in Europe, some did and did fine. What a surprise.
the Jews withstand persecution in Europe for a long time before the Holocaust and never claimed a country of their own for that.
it was the ideal place to set up a country for the Jews, a thing which was neccesary.
a more appropriate region could have been found.
well according to the bible the jews were there before any arabian.
according to the bible [...]
so you clearly cant use history to support your argument.
Celebrating jesus birth and other christian holidays according to the bible is justified but saying that Jews lived in Israel 2000 years ago isn't, why is that, both things are written in the same book.
I'm not a religious person at all,..
..but you are just being hypocrite here,..
..denying some parts of the bible because it dosen't suit your argument while blindely and without even knowing accepting and following other parts of it,..
..like the main principles of our modern and enlightened society for example, which were written 2000 years ago.
is a fundamental measurement at how successful a political system is.
Slavery was abolished because it was becoming expensive and impractical (Pay small wage vs housing/feeding/securing/replacing/medical care/children slaves).
The view I have is that moral standards evolve alongside successful economic/political/social systems.
so you don't want to apply morals to politics, except that the extend in which morals can be and are adhered is a fundamental measurement at how successful a political system is.
and you don't want someone who calls for moral in politics to rule people, because apparently you think he would fool them which would be what? immoral?
just wondering if you'll ever figure it out on your own, which is the only way imo.
Politics, it is the *process* by which groups of people behave.
"Yes Zionism had been around for longer, but it is not coincendence that things really started happening after WW II and the attempted genocide of jews."
General Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and gave the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997, when it was published in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan's daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.
In the interview, Tal interjected, "But they were sitting on the Golan Heights...."
"Never mind that," said Dayan. "I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started.... It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything - (it was) in the demilitarized zone - and [we] would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until, in the end, the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force.... And that's how it was."
Do you think the terms and states of being 'terrorist state' and 'american base' are not conflicting?
What state do you think is an antipod of a 'terrorist state'?
the point is not that israel is a terrorist state, it's that it's THE LEADING TERRORIST STATE in that part of the world.
What do you think a terrorist state is?
An 'american base'?
Ok, so basically, since everyone is somewhat of a terrorist state, employing lethal weapons and not love grenades, can it be said that it's just a leading state in the region then?
Do you think they don't realise what they're doing?
Do you think its for their benefit?
Can't see passed your own nose.
Open the world map, Arab from Israel. You'll find out that the terrain of the Arab countries(22) is bigger than the terrain of Europe and the terrain of all the Muslim countries (56) covers 1\3 of the planet, a huge area that can not be described. And immeasurable resources of oil and wealthiness.
So apparently it does seems totally O.K that the Jewish people will have a country of their own, without the need to share it with another Muslim Arab nation ,isn't that so?
The twentieth century was a century of emigration and exchange of population on the entire face of the earth. All the Jews from the Arab States immigrated to their homeland Israel. All of the "Israeli" Arabs were supposed to emigrate back to their own homelands(the Arab states) Not only that you haven't done that- you just kept on infiltrating into Israeli lands in every sophisticated way that you can think of, and used the soft policy of Israel that made it possible.
The Israeli military has not yet responded to this particular incident, but it says it seeks to minimise civilian casualties and blames Hamas for using civilians as human shields.
Militants are continuing to fire rockets into Israel.