Great.

Now Bliptourney is useless.

=]

"Railgun removed" about time

i take it single light has been added ?

edit: ye post say it now :) gg

rofl

only really useful if FPS improvements made it into the map (r_lightdetaillevel)

they are....

Nice!

I wont play this cos its for pros only

/me puts the pro-stamp on drex

another map that removes the railgun to please all the people with shite aim.

Aye.

actually i guess it will please all the people who can use more than one gun

and for them that cant they have insta \o :P

By cYmoZz
Map looks nice, especially with those tricky jumps. But removement of rail... dunno maybe there should have been a big beta test, before releasing the final version.

i was the first beta tester on this map of seo's we recruited people form irc to test this map, each day the map had a change in the end only 5 of us actually got it right, the rail was by far the maps downfall, we tryed it in new positions, in newly created rooms but if someone had the rail then it was basically all over, as for comparing the q4 rail to q3 one there is no contest the q3 one was all about aim and was more sluggish than the quake 4 one, and im actually glad that seo got rid of the rail. as it was adding a unavoidable dominance to the first person to get the rail.

and if your still not happy with the explanation maybe you should come to #blip on quakenet and idle there so when we need people to test seos upcoming maps you could actually add your info and thoughts on how to make the map progress to a better stage.

erm i dont have a problem with the map...u sure u wanted to reply to me?! :|

It's the other way around, the lack of rail will separate the REAL aimers from the rest methinks.

awesome map.

awesome second link :)

feel free to whine and whiiiiine about the fact that rail isnt included but the benefits of taking it out far out-weigh the negatives. just do me the courtesy of reserving judgement until u have played it.
*sob*

*hug*

I played it. It's shit. The old one was fine with RA on one end and MH + YA on the other. Plus ofcourse the rail. Sorry, but the more effort you have put into it, the more shite you made it.

well, that's some damned helpful input right there. well done. blue peter badge for you sir.

by played do u mean 'ran around' ?
is there anything u can put ur finger on as to why its shit or did u just decide?
seems u just wanted to make a cock-end pointless post.
success!

Ok, I will. You tried to balance the map out by removing the RA and rail and putting in a yellow armour. The situation that you now get from controlling YA + MH is that your opponent has one yellow armour, which gives him fairly little to deal with considering the fact that there is no rail.

Now, the thing is -- controlling both armours and MH is even easier than controlling YA, MH and RA. Because the controlling lad can just burst in with whatever he has and get into a shaft fight without the risk of losing. In the other situation you would have had a RA and an RG for the non controlling lad to fall back on. The balance now is totally tipped in the edge of the lad who has YA and MH. The result of this is that one lad will keep on running up until the point where he can gather at least 150 armour so that he can RISK a fight or try to ambush his opponent. The difficulty with this situation is that you will not succeed very easily in ambushing an opponent due to the open nature of this map. (let alone evade him long enough to collect 150) In competitions this is going to prove essential and the result will be that the controlling lad will simply gain too big a lead margin for him to lose. I would hate to see a map where the initial spawn can cost you the game. Really, mate, I played the first bliptourney rather much and enjoyed it alot. In my honest opinion, it just took a turn for the worse.

I try to look at it like this. Having YA + MH almost equals having an RA, but is a bit of an edge. However the lad at RA has a railgun and most likely the lad with YA and MH will have one too. This will result in actually more tactful play by both players because the lad in control can't simply burst in a room and pump one full of rockets or shaft without the risk of losing control when his enemy spawns again.

Personally I also feel that the Quake scene has gone rather pussy with the whole rail thing. It's been like that since Quake 2. You can Time the damn thing even, scoop was right when he said we're all pussies about it.
But hey, what do I know. I'm just a player.

It dosn't play like that. The games I played on it are really close untill the very end where one player gets a frag or two and manages to pull away due to there being little time to pull it back without pure agression.

Just wait and see what really good players will do on it. I also don't understand why people don't look at low scoring games as freaking tense. Especially in tourneys. Those are the real nail biting matches in my view.

I also like it when people manage to chase each other out of a room without even getting into a fight. You know the rail/grenades/rockets combo. No damage done but one retreats. That's just great play.

Really good players will know how to not get into conflicts they can't win.

Yeah just like on pro-q3tourney4. Though that was actually a balanced map. blip isn't ztn mate. There's a whole different dynamic of play.

However i've typed a whole story with arguments why this version lacks in gameplay compared to the first one. The only thing I got back is: "It doesn't play that way". I mean, what's up? You think I didn't play it?

problem is your arguments are crap and not true. have you spent 10-20+ hours testing it and learning it inside out ? please do that before you judge the gameplay. k....

Why don't we duel on the old and new one.

PS: Just because you hopped around a map for 20+ hours doesn't make you an expert in these matters. I don't claim that I am, but at least I provide argumentation for my criticism. (As seo requested) You, however, merely spout: "Your argumentation is crap. innit."

To quote someone from this very thread: "well, that's some damned helpful input right there. well done. blue peter badge for you sir."

What is stopping you?

obviously you did not see my point so i will explain it more clearly _JUST_ for you. you can't tell how a map will play from just playing it once or twice or even three times. it takes maybe 15-20 duels on a map before you start seeing how it will play in a proper match. obviously the better you know the map the better idea you'll get of how it will play as a map in tournament play. this is what i was talking about in that post and what is kinda annoying to all the people who spent that much time getting to know the map so they could give useful input from testing.
now, was that so hard to understand ?

No? I don't need 20 duels on a map to notice it's flaws. Maybe it's the difference in natural ability, but when something is bent I see the curve. Sorry to burst your bubble. Read my last reply to Seo and we're done mate.

arrogant cunt

I just call them as I see them. You're the one speaking of arrogance, calling peoples arguments "crap and not true" without any proper counter arguments. Am I supposed to agree with you because you helped design this map?

obviously you haven't read any of the arguments i've put forward so i give up. you win, well done.

same thing applies m8 everything u have said is based on theory. you have obviously played enough duels to know what your doing. the problem is you dont know the map and how it plays. its not a simple case of the 'lad' with mega running both armors and owning the whole map....it just doesnt happen. what generally happens is u get 1 YA each and fight for ctrl of mega.
if 1 camps drop-YA and mega he gets +100h +50a +20a (shards) if he camps just that area. this leaves the other player with +50a +25a (shards) and +35h from health shards.

so there u have a fairly even balance

but the point is the map is far too quick for that kinda of camping/ area control anyway. the play drifts around all over the place and each area becomes important as and when the items are spawning there (so that is where u need to be).

Also because of the access provided by the jumps to the drop-ya u cant just camp any one item because u for-go so much other stuff on the map. u have to keep moving. And because both players are constantly moving around there is plenty of oportunity for the down player to sneak into mega and get into a good position to defend it (and take it) from the ctrling player. As u said we'll see once good players get to know it well.

no offence but to everyone who insists on jumping to conclusions

PLAY THE MAP A WHILE FIRST

im just tired of explaining this crap round and round.

Actually, everything I said is based on experience and (my) understanding of the game. You can also watch some of cooller or zero4 demos in quake 3, or even fatal1ty in pk and quake 3. People are going to control the items badly.

But alright, I will report back in two weeks. I will be surprised if I am uncorrect in this matter, but I am open minded as I too only want balanced maps, not silly discussions.

It's just a shame that the rail is getting treated like some newbified weapon. People should try to hit them against good players in a duel, especially in tourneys. Everyone here is shouting how EASY it is to hit a rail, well, where are all the 70+% demos? I haven't seen one.

Cheers.

Your last paragraph is indeed the flipside to the raging debate right now about the RG. In your defense, that is a very valid point.

RG doesn't have to be hitting to have a negative effect on play, everyone has to hide and slowplay because of it rather than play in a more dynamic manner.

Just what you call dynamic or negative. Being forced to choose a better moment or position to attack is what I call dynamic play. We might disagree here, but I see it as a valuable asset of making the game better.

Fact of the matter is that the Railgun, as it is, has been a part of Quake since it's first appearance in Quake 2. Always, we have lived with it. Always, there was whine. In my opinion it would be a shame if the whine got the better of us now. Concentrate on making decent maps and osp-like options instead of messing around with something that has been inherent to Quake for years.

A stakegun-style weapon would be far more skillful and interesting. RG was interesting in the Q2 days, since mice and connections got better it turned into the retarded, overpowered monster it is now. The thing is that Quake games are more than duel, in duel there's more room for strategy to counter the brute imbalance of the RG but it dominates TDM and CTF as was seen in Q3.

I don't see how you can consider railgun play dynamic, I consider close-in fights and aggression exciting and dynamic, RG rewards everyone's favourite standy railing and reduces player interaction because the only defence is to hide behind a wall.

Whine has nothing to do with the validity or not of the RG. It could be good, it could be shit and some people would whine, either way I am not whining, I'm a RG whore who's honest.

In fact you're right. I am talking from a duelling perspective only, but you do have a point about TDM and CTF. Hate standy cunts. As long as you keep it proper in duel, I'm not complaining.

[-]

heh.

Nah, this map owns.

Well at least for some friendly Ffa action i found the first version much better.

"new version of bliptourney1 more suitable for tournament/competetive play"

ye i know ;)

still i don't like the layout of this version ... why not just use the old one and replace rail with hyperblaster ,maybe make some minor changes to the geometry (does that word exist?) ...

this feels like a whole new map and i don't find it too good.

Thanks for the old one though ;)

just make the railgun less dmg then it can still be included :)

unfortunately that isn't an option for a map maker :)

ill test it now.. gonna post later my opinion.. great fact about the rail being removed :)

Okay, let me clarify: I'm not against changes to Bliptourney. I just think that removing the rail to create map balance is the easy way out. It removes an essential part of Q4 skill.

It would have to be a complete new map to allow rail. Seo tried all sorts to allow the rail to be on but not dominate. Sadly the rail managed to dominate anyway and the map just turned into rail fights. The shotgun actually works on this map for all but the longest distances.

What's wrong with rail dominance? It's only a problem if the map is unbalanced. T4 was rail dominant in q3 - nobody complained about that...

PT4 was different to how this played and it is far easier to hit rails in Q4

That's because nobody knows how to move yet.

Not really, it does hit easier regardless of movement considering it has a tiny delay in comparison to Q3 it should be equal if not harder. It is easier to hit because the Hitboxes are bigger and the "width / height" of the railguns "hitzone"(erm) is larger and the netcode is really strange and results in all sorts of errors (Rockets passing through my body was quite funny).

I agree the netcode is shit; but it's shit across all weapons. The rail hit area is one pixel - and hasn't everybody been complaining that the models are too small? (Cooller: "I want keel")

It's the movement.

Model != Hitbox eh

And no the railgun isn't 1 pixel big

The hitboxes are buggy, yes, but not overly massive. As for the rail hit area - do you have any proof of this? Sure, I don't have rock-solid proof that it's 1 pixel either, since I have no-one to hop in a server with me (no online Q4 servers in SA yet...), but I'm just curious if you do. I've heard this said many times, but never by anyone with any kind of skillful reputation or evidence to back it up.

And I don't care that it played differently, the issue here is ratio of rail use to that of other weapons, right? In that case, T4 is no different.

Lets look at it this way then shall we. Blip was shit with rail.

Your opinion, backed up with no evidence.

And how is your opinion backed up with any evidence?

My point is that the ratio of rail to other weapons is roughly the same as PT4 - your point is that bliptourney is shit with rail. Do you see the oh-so-slight difference in objectivity?

No. PT4 has a totally diferent map structure. Besides the fact that weapon balance is different in Q4.

And I don't care that it played differently, the issue here is ratio of rail use to that of other weapons, right? In that case, T4 is no different.

PT4 worked well like that Blip was just rubbish.

Your opinion, backed up with no evidence.

Well how am I meant to back it up with evidence when all you are saying is.

"ZOMG RAIL RATIO RAIL RATIO"

My point is that the ratio of rail to other weapons is roughly the same as PT4 - your point is that bliptourney is shit with rail. Do you see the oh-so-slight difference in objectivity?

This is without a doubt the most retarded argument in the history of ESR. By now I think my point is proven.

No it isn't. Blip you just about only used rail. PT4 you would use PG/RL/SG quite a lot if you had any idea of how it was played you would know this.

"God exists. If you knew God, you would know this."

Why are you comparing this map with pt4 from quake 3? That, in my opinion is backing up an argument with bs facts.

Oh... my... god...

Is it so hard to see?

PT4 works with rail, blip does not work with rail.

Good to see the retardedness of this argument is still going on. Keep the faith, bruvva.

funny how you mention the word argument in most of your posts without actually giving one in any .

Well that's the best part: there isn't one.

I asked a question:

"What's wrong with rail dominance? It's only a problem if the map is unbalanced. T4 was rail dominant in q3 - nobody complained about that..."

Which was answered:

"T4 is different" etc.

After which I asked:

"Why?"

To which was replied:

"Because blip with rail sucks."

After which I asked:

"What's wrong with rail dominance?"

To which was replied:

"T4 is different" etc.

After which I asked:

"Why?"

To which was replied:

"Because blip with rail sucks."

...

i thought it was more like RAIL RATIO RAIL RATIO
to which they replied but blip is better without rail
and then BUT RAIL RATIO RAIL RATIO
continue around 10x and u have the arguement :)

Which is why it's funny.

On T4 the rail made the map faster because it can be difficult to force a long fight and there's not many armors/mh to run, there's not a dominant part in the map where you can camp and you can still go to the yas from a not large open area and from different ways.

Blip is the opposite, it slows down gameplay because you can prevent your opponent getting close to you if you camp the way to the armor/mh.

Only if your opponent has no idea what he's doing.

PT4 was not rail dominated. You should know this, and most people will go against you on this. Q3 itself was rail dominated, but most maps you would of used the rail the same on every map.

Have you watched any recent demos on pt4?

Thing is with Q3 you were able to "counter" a strong railer due to the power of PG/RL/LG at close distances. The PG has been butchered, RL is less effective and LG is slightly shorter and there is no truelightning. Which means the general power of the rail is much greater.

Q3 was "rail dominant" but not in a way that meant all you needed was rail and you could win back control easily. I always found it easier to deal with good railers than shafters for example.

The same will happen with Q4 in time.

Yeah if the hitboxes/netcode are fixed and maybe with the weapon balanced changed. If not then no it won't change from what it is now except with very strong map design which could take ages. Not every map suits rail this one didn't.

This is just preposterous mate. You should learn to hit. Don't anyone dare to use rail in my close proximity.

Sigh

Rail dominance is wrong because it over-rewards raw xhair placement over strategy, prediction and brains, reducing the overall depth of the game. Rail is a fairly simple weapon to use and while there is considerable depth of technique in the gun players are no where near agile enough in modern FPS games to test that technique, it's more about boring contests of how few pixels can I reveal around this corner.

I'd like to know why rail has not been over-abused by any of the top players, if it's so simple. In Q4, people are getting the same accuracies as they were in Q3. Someone hits 60% in Q3 and it's "omg skill!" (which it is), but in Q4 (and so far I haven't seen anybody hit 60%) it's "omg rail is too easy!!!"

There is as much depth in the rail as there is in any other weapon. Prediction railing and anti-rail movement (which is not simply hiding around corners; watch a fox demo), as well as the fact that you will be punished for the slightest mistake, result in more complex and thus more entertaining competition matches.

Don't forget that you can play defensively with or without rail. After playing the new blip last night, I found it quite simple to just run away, spamming rockets. On the contrary, rail often forces players to engage each other.

i think the fact i get 50-60% reliably and totally suck at rg style hitscan in every other game screams about how easy it is

You're not playing against fox or cooller, now are you? If you're getting 60%, why aren't the top players hitting this all the time?

no offence mate but this isn't really an argument you have knowledge enough of the map to put forward. it seems you've not even played the new version of the map with or without a rail so you have no clue how it plays. after extensive playtesting of both the rail and railless versions and countless tweaks to try to allow rail, it became obvious that this map couldn't handle it. 95% of people will agree that rail only instagib style maps are shit (maybe you're the 5% minority) and that's exactly why the rail was removed. and don't give that bullshit that rail takes more skill than rocket/lg/shotgun/hb, it's simply not true. there are countless other maps that you can abuse the overpowered instant 100 damage hitscan that is the railgun, but this isn't one of them.

Sigh... and so, once again, I'll repeat myself:

"I'm not against changes to Bliptourney."

"[Removing the rail] removes an essential part of Q4 skill."

What my entire argument boils down to is this: the rail is part of Q4; removing it removes a part of Q4 - perhaps I am in the 5% minority who like Q4 in its entirety, but I think to create a map that makes full use of all the game's features is the ideal.

The rail should not be removed from the game but having it removed from some maps is good in my opinion. Weapons should be in maps because they make the gameplay more interesting to watch and play (As well as perhaps more difficult to win). In this case removing rail improved the gameplay.

Yes - and we already have that: Phrantic.

The old Blip had a very different way of playing which wasn't found on any of the other maps.

Phrantic plays nothing like blip.

Of course it doesn't. The layout's completely different. I'm talking about the speed of play. At any rate, now we're getting into a discussion of how the new Blip will play, which I can't comment on until I've played it.

One final repeat of my point: the old Blip's gameplay was unique, and it's a shame we're losing that.

Well this dosn't overwrite the old blip's .bsp(Or .map or whatever) I don't think

no nailgun......and it didnt get a mention.
also an essential part of q4

It wasn't in the old version, so I didn't think it was relevant to the discussion. If the original blip had no rail, I wouldn't be objecting to it not being there either.

surely u would have made the same objection about the old version if its just an issue maintaining all aspects of q4.

anyway im not gonna start another merry-go-round arguement with u m8. theres no point and no resolution will ever be met.
gg

You're right, it isn't as simple as that. The old blip had a feel that none of the other maps did, and this was largely due to the rail. You've removed one aspect of Q4 in favour of adding another - I simply preferred the one that got removed.

Let's add the DMG if we should include all aspects of Quake 4!

Oh... my... god...

I just like to mock you because the only thing your posts boil down to is that you like the rail and rail dominance of the old map. Well, go play railing yards or the old blip ? It's like your'e afraid noone will after the relase of this one. If you're right about the old "superior" play of blip, everyone will play old blip instead.

u cant these days, its just the yard now :(

So someone removed drachs fps pack and the stock map from all computers and servers in the world? That's something of an achievement ;)
It's strange how people seem to think it's forbidden to play maps other than the tmp pack now.

nope, just GL trying to find someone willing to play stock fragging yard.

Problem with railing yard is the complete lack of complexity.

Unfortunately the strengths or weaknesses of a map have nothing at all to do with whether or not it'll be played. Case in point: CAL and clanbase have already adopted the new blip, and it's a grand total of one day old (the public release, that is).

mayb coz its alot better than the stock maps :/

But not better than the old blip :/

It may well remove an essential part of skill, BUT.

It should be remembered that this is simply part of a map pool.
If 4 maps were widely used for tournament play, two without railgun (like blip and PHRANTIC) and the other two with such as lost fleet and Edge, OVERALL the ratio still remains fair, as it balances things out.

I can personally vouch that this map provides fast fun gameplay.
Even if I lose I don't get pised of, frustrated and bored like I do on a lot of the stock variations.
When you die on blip its because you messed up.
It's not because of a spawn, or that one section of the map is strongly biased towards a certain point or players who just rely on the railgun as their primary source of aim.

It's far more enjoyable than any stock map. Good stuff.

I agree it's the most enjoyable. And I have no doubt the new version is going to be just as enjoyable as the old - but for different reasons. I personally find it sad that we're losing the rail-based play which was great on the old blip. The other weapons could still be used to full effect if the players had any skill. I've already sent Seo a demo to demonstrate it.

the thing i think you're missing (no offence) is that in the near future more and more maps that are able to cope with the railgun will be released. there just isn't much point putting a railgun on the map just for the sake of having a railgun, when it so blatantly doesn't work with the style of map. you can pipe up another argument about how rail is essential to q4 but at the end of the day, the map is more balanced without it.

Well, that's just it, I want to know what is wrong with the old bliptourney. For the purposes of this question consider me completely ignorant, and explain it to me. So far all responses have just been "old blip sucked" or "blip with rail was terrible" - nobody's giving any reasons why.

railwhorage map domination??
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=942272

side note i think i prefer old version... gw Seo tho

Clock's opponent was completely useless. When I see cooller doing that against Fatal1ty, I'll concede.

idd, control was far too hard to break, and the map was totally dominated by rail.

In my experience, players of equal skill always had very close games on the old Blip, with neither player ever able to completely lock the map down. And as for a map in which rail is the predominant weapon - what's wrong with that? Take any Pro-T4 game in Q3 - most kills will be by rail, and those that aren't will be assisted by it.

rail isnt skill in q4, its point and click.

I like the new version much more then the old, one of the maps were it doesnt matter if u lose or win because you get fun matches and thats what its about.

rail isnt skill in q4, its point and click.

hahaha, well said ;)
altho i don't agree on removing the weapon from q4 maps.
They should just reduce the dmg a bit.

we have to wait for modders to do that :)

It isn't the damage, it is the engine which is making it so much easier to hit. If this was in Q3 then the railgun would probably still work.

Then every weapon in quake is point and click. Take lg. It's basicly just pointing at your opponent and holding the shootbutton down. And RL is just about pointing and clicking randomly on the map where you would predict your opponent to be.

To exclude rail because of "that is just point and click, no brain" is ridicoulus, whereas it is more about aim and reaction, than timing random rockets is. As I haven't played the map, I won't go into discussing whether or not it should be included, but your statement is simply speaking; dumb.

It shouldn't have been on this map, just as it shouldn't be on Phrantic, or q3dm13, or pt2, or cpm4 etc.

Having no rail on this map makes the map play well rather than having it play awful. For those of you who think if a map dosn't work well with rail it isn't a good map whatever happened to having a vareity of maps with different tools and layouts. Imagine if cpm4 had a rail on it, or q3wcp15 neither maps would work or be fun.

yeh :) obviously all guns are point and click unless u use keyboard for fire in which case its point and press. what he's saying is. its the only gun where all u have to do is click a button whilst ur cross hair is on the person to hit, like u said lg is the same, but its not a 1 click 1 hit things u have to hold it on them.
as for saying RL is point and click.......hehe. its not is it?

RL is point and click.......hehe. its not is it? <- it isnt? there goes that dream :(

LG is point, click, TRACK, MOVE to compensate for enemy movement, COMPENSATE for slight lag.

Rail is point click.

LG IS HOLD DOWN BUTTON - MOVE STREAM ONTO OPPONENT... WAY TOO EASY #=¤)=%#&%)=# BLA BLA BLA....

stfu

Erm, ok my point was to compare how easy rail was to use in comparison with LG, not to say LG is an easy weapon to use.

NO SHIT?!?!

rofl

Are you a moron or are you an ass?

Both. What do I win?

a [+]

isn't TRACK and COMPENSATE FOR ENEMY MOVEMENT the same thing?

and with the railgun, you also have to COMPENSATE FOR LAG + there's a slight delay on railgun from press to shoot... so you have to compensate for that... + you have to compensate for enemy movement + there's the substantial reload time to take into consideration when using it... so it's not just point+click (obviously, you're just tired of getting ur handed by a railwhore) :>

but really, it depends on the situation... close up rail is probably one of the hardest weapons to use... i do agree, however, that the railgun seems overpowered in Q4, but that's not due to the "point+click nature" of the weapon because the railgun was fine in Q3 (it was strong yes, but the LG and RL were stronger in some situations... to an extent where those 3 weapon seemed quite well balanced)

I do think rail is too ez at the moment.
TDM maps with rail is just camping the rail room mainly.

I think the q3 rail was perfectly balanced.

Personally i wouldnt like the rail damage to be reduced, q3 was fine, even in dm6 (alot of rail) you could do without the rail and still frag some. In q3 if you fired the rail up close/midclose and missed you were really fucked, somehow i dont get the same feeling in q4.

Dunno why it sucks in q4, propably 1 or a combination of the following:
Movementspeed, beam width, hitbox size, reload time of rail, slow weaponswitch.

It makes the game dead boring to only walk around with rail and mainly only get killed by it or because of it.

For now i think leaving out the rails on rail dominated maps is a good thing, until they balanced the rail gun out or fixed the gameplay.

Never heard such bullshit dude, good aiming doesnt take u anywhere when using RL when you cant predict your opponent, LG is useless if you cant track your opponent and so on.every other weapon needs you to think a bit.

talking about random rockets shows us that you dont know how to aim with the RL at all.

it's skill to have a steady 50-60%+ rail acc.

what's the point of that one jumppad exactly? it just seems to throw you up to some green health that you can get to easily by just going up the ramp, and of course makes a nice loud noise for your trouble.

anyway, if this is the final release i guess it should be made major news, assuming leagues are going to be using it.

By far the best duell map for Q4 in the (short) Q4 history ;)
its fast, balanced and just great fun to play.

And about the rail, Seo tried really hard to make it balanced with a rail included. Taking the rail out made the gameplay much more fast-paced as you dont have to screen for a railwhore all the time.

midair rockets ftw ^_^

Map looks nice, especially with those tricky jumps. But removement of rail... dunno maybe there should have been a big beta test, before releasing the final version.

There was.

beta testers are listed in the readme i believe

believe me there was intensive beta testing

i think the mix of textures look abit ugly, especially that browny coloured texture on top of the blue metallic ones. Not a big deal but thought id share my opinion.

sssshhhh they'll all notice,,,,,;)

http://www.justporno.de/quake4/pro_bliptourney1.zip
another mirror

shotgun is as good as rail, so don't whine about no rail ;D

weee im starting to agree with rondrian! omg /me writes guiness book of records :D <3

if rail is so easy in q4 why aint people hitting 90% in games?? :E

because ppl are noobs

because of
- knockback
- ping
- spam/prediction shots
- easy != 90% acc.
etc.

The fucking 60 fps cap !

Played it a bit versus Rondrian, he hates it, I love it. Awesome map :D

My guess is that you usually win? ;P

No :( Doesn't matter which map (or rather game) we play, he usually rapes me. But he's a railwhore and I love rockets, so that might be the reason :)

if u remove the rail
remove the schotgun 2 ( thats a realy eazy 2 aim and realy powerfull gun @ any range ! ) @ least the rail needs som skill
Schotgun doont need skill ore good aim

u cant pick a shot at some1 across the entire map and deal 100dmg with the shotgun though can you? i cant

I can






or can I....

Major??

done ...as i think it should b too

Omg, another one.

Beta here, beta there. Final here.. oh no wait. THIS is the final version... beta.

PRO version is OUT!!!, beta v1, beta v5, beta v3.. FINAL version, YAY!

i have released the map twice m8, learn to count mmkay?

Erhm, no this is the third version.. And I wasn't just referring to you.

i think he knows how many versions he has released after all he did make the map...mayb more versions have been tested but they wasnt released to the "public"

wheres this 3rd version ive not been told about then ?

That's the beta :).

it wasnt released and if u wanna count beta's as releases then u might aswell say theres been about 382 blip releases cos thats the amount of beta tests i did with those willing to help playtest.

Ehrmm, yes I had a blip1b or something like two days ago -_-'

???????

your not listening are you.....
i did playtests of blip so that i could gauge how the map played....u have one of the many many many MANY many many MANY....versions i used to playtest. its probably called bliptest1b.pk4
its not a release.

It's still another version...

lol my god ur stupid. would u like a few more ill take every back up and compile them just for u. if its not a release its not a version just delete it.
pls stop being deliberately idiotic

So let's say a beta5 isn't a version of a map?. You are wrong.

So 0.5 of Q4Max isn't a version because it's a beta?, hmm.

He did not release the beta versions of blip to the public. He invited players to beta test it on his servers (Anyone who showed up in #blip basically). They may be "versions" but they were not released. Also as this version dosn't overwrite the old blip technically it is a second map rather than release.

Strange, I actually found that beta here :O (Can't remember whre though)

And yes it's a edit of the old map... Wich basicly means that this is the new version of the old map wich noone will probobly play now.

immortal posted it in a thread about CPL maps (Hardly releasing is it :))

There is no reason why it should replace the old one if enough people like it.

Yeah, people still play q3dm6 instead of the pro version :P

Anyways, my point was that there are too many betas out right now and too many edits of the original maps, as I was saying, not just these maps. But seeing as blip, phrantic and tmp02 has become final I hope things turn out for the better.

i cant be bothered to explain it yet again. i dont see how u find it so hard to understand. nevermind.

where do these people come from??????!

giggle

roflcopter

its not that the schotgun deal 100 Damge @ realy long range ( more like 20-60 damge ( yes 60 damge is not uncommen )
and if ure aim sucks ( why would u care ( its a close splas so u wil hit )
1-3 schots dead ( full amo full healt ( u calculate )

Honestly, someone should make a list of problems and concerns we have and then post it all for Raven/Id to see. These problems are systemic (i.e. netcode buggy, hitbox too big) and needs to be patched.

They need to acknowledge the community. At the very least, make a statement that "they are working on it" or something. If not for people who amend, critique and sometimes whine (because they care), quake wouldn't be where it is today

Yeah good luck with that, I have yet to see a response on known issues, .plans, ANYTHING in the time this game has been out, on planetquake, q3w, here, ravens own forums, anywhere other then "we are working on things be patient" that was before the xbox release, and we all know how well that went.

Counting on Raven to fix anything is a risky move at this point imo.

Is the map now called Armored Core Lab #1? And no preview pic when choosing map?

From personal use and early testing .. we talking real early.

its a great map, Good stuff and well done on making it FINAL.

Awesome.

A couple of construction suggestions:

Suggestion 1
A player can get stuck between the pipe and this wall, place a playerclip between them.

Suggestion 2
All of these 'panels' on the map lack a clip which means theres a tine edge that can slow a player down.

Suggestion 3
Make clip brushes that covers the gap between the edge of the lamp and the wall to create a smooth transition.
Suggestion 4
Same here, no reason for the player to be able to get between the lamp and the wall.

Suggestion 5
The ammobox dips into the trim in the floor which looks odd. A general tip to make ammoboxes look 'in place' is to position them 24 units above the floor.

There's a texture placement where trim met trim near a ramp that looks odd, kind of bland in lightdetail 9 and made it hard to distinguish where the trim ended on the floor and where the ramp started, I'll upload pic soon.

Nice map, a great improvement from the first edition. However, I suggest you make the levelshot a .tga file so that it can be viewed in the menu and rename it to something shorter (why not just call it BLIP?)

thats a comment I made to the clock demo on the old blip in the demo section before this was major so plz watch it before replying on it:

"the fault is not on q4's or on clock's side. this map simply sux tbh. and it all started in q3 when hubaeroq3 was chosen as a tournament map. when do people finally see that maps consisting of only one room devided by some random pillars are not suited for competetive play.

why are all these cpma maps remade for q4? most of them giving horrible gameplay in both vq3 and vq4 as we can see once again. why dont take people time to make some real good maps like ztntourney1 where you cant look from one side of the map to the other? even on pro-t4 you couldnt look through the whole map. I mean good maps where you actually have to "run" the map to stay in control and not just camp somewhere. removing the rail from maps is just the admission that the map is broken.

I appeal to the map makers to make some good maps with several seperated rooms and not just copy maps that dont fit into this game. you have to force the players to move their asses. you have to do it with your level design and item placement and yes I say it a third time SEPERATED ROOMS. thats the way to break rail abuse and spawnraping and heal q4."

I admin to remove the rail and close down the map a bit was the only way to save it without building a whole new map.

that is quite an intelligent comment. I agree, it is stupid to have maps where you can pretty much see everything with one screen pan. I like maps like ztn and prodm6 that require people to move their asses, balanced items, hearing sounds vertically and horizontally and not be stationary rail whores. I only hope new maps can be made with such quality. Of course, IT WAS RAVEN'S JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE TO MAKE AT LEAST ONE GOOD MAP....

I would give you a [+] but i don't know if it means anything since you're not registered :P

thats quite an intelligent reply. usually I only get "stfu anonymous noob" replies. the problem is I get this:

Errors reported:
No key provided

while trying to register.

"why dont take people time to make some real good maps like ztntourney1 where you cant look from one side of the map to the other? even on pro-t4 you couldnt look through the whole map. I mean good maps where you actually have to "run" the map to stay in control and not just camp somewhere."

heh, the edge is a prime example ? :)

sorry, had to be said

sry I dont get your point =)

"all of these cpma maps remade for q4"

You mean the single cpma map that's been remade?

couldnt agree more.

its easy for him to mistake this for a cpma map, because its just like one

all these maps coming out so far are mostly basic cpma style "1 room with random walls" maps, the only reason people are embracing this map is because its something new, and while it is slightly better than the out-of-the-box maps, it doesnt change the fact that its shit

I personally have nothing against rail-less maps, but if you have to remove the rail simply to make your map playable - you need to rethink your map design imo

No people are embracing it because it uses the physics of quake4 and actually requires you to use ramps and slides to play the map. Unlike the majority if not all of the other maps. This is a Q4 map, not a converted x map, it's design is based around the game.

great map seo, look forward to owning you on it :)

Love It how the Rail continues to get removed In most of these maps due to the whine of people that are unable to use It properly, or have been owned by someone that can use a rail, the railgun make the game exciting to watch when you see some impressive shots being made, removing It from every map possible for Tournament will make things abit more dull, but I guess that's just my opinion.

Peace x

I agree, i love seeing awesome rail aiming. Those whip rail shots, consecutive rails, or clincher rails

However, I disagree with you about people whining for not knowing how to use it or get owned by it. I think the general consensus is that there is something unfair about rail use: it could be wider beam than normal or bigger hitboxes, diminished rail counters (i.e. shorter lg distance). In any event, this has all contributed to the rail's dominance and thus, it's exclusion was warranted

Let's just hope this rail situation gets fixed or balanced with maps because railing is exciting to see in tourneys

Rail shots can be impressive. Mouse whips and those awesome prediction rails through a small area while flying by are great. But not the stupid rocket arena style railing where a person just sits there or just strafes back and forth until the opponent stumbles into the crosshair. No offense to cl0ck, but that demo was so stupid. There was maybe 1 nice rail shot the whole time. The rest of them were "let the guy walk into my crosshair" shots you see 99% of the time. Not a single whip.

Since when did a rail become a hated thing on a map ...

Enough with all the no rail rl spam and cess maps only already

Its also rather funny that only the 'lower divisions' players seem to complain about rail dominance , yet proclaim the weapon requires no skill . If this is true then why do the top players not complain about rail? rail is perfectly fine, its just your inability to aim well enough with the other guns that makes it 'overpowered' And on top of that an ec player still has far superior rail aim in general

This may be very blunt but ive had it with all the rail-no-skill comments by now

I guess the railgun will become the new BFG, canceled from the start :).

The true evil lies in the micro RL splash if you ask me. If the RL would be as Q3, the rail would be far less dominant.

I still like this map, my only problem with it is that because the light Gun plays such a heavy part in it, it can be pretty frustrating unless both pings are about the same.

So for axample if you have 30 ping and you're playing someone with 65, which is not at all unreasonable, you really need to to think twice before locking horns and engaging in a LG to LG situation.

im not really fond of the new layout. There are some fps issues in some places too

Hmm.. rail ;[

I dunno... max slugs = 5? Damage at 70? 10 secs recharge time between use? Slower weapon switch to RG?

Probably the wrong thread for this but the rail has been popping up everywhere on ESR recently...

Ok I had to ask...what's the deal with the floor tiles and the trims? All these 'half tiles' on the edges look wrong imo.

Surely this (quick change I made in the editor) looks better than this??

I think the original had a nice theme and feel to it, while I certainly welcome layout changes...some areas are now curved, while others are squarish and diagonal, the ceiling is as bland is it could possibly get, and an extra set of textures breaks consistency imo.

well it appears to be a resounding whine from everyone whos gone near the map, last time i waste a month solid of my time mapping for u cunts.

some ppl appreciate ur work :)
tbh if they think they can do better mayb they should just try insted of whining...but as far as i can see the only ppl whining are the ppl that use rail only :P and now they having a sulky ;)

yeh ur probly right. its a symptom of esr possibly.
i am mapping more i was just expressing my frustration at the comments posted, so far 90% have been negative. as ive said so many times. u need to play the map a while b4 u can know it.

The map is ok, don't worry. If we were to put up a discussion about ztn3tourney1 for Q3 we would have a similar useless whine and flame war going on. Despite the fact that this map is great and a class of its own..

a _month_ ? Sounds exaggerated, I made boneyards in a week (2-3 hours mapping a day). Nice first effort if that is the case, it takes a while to learn all the hotkeys and techniques.

they playtested this extensively

:) i wasnt learning the hotkeys..... it was the playtesting tweaking etc that took the time.

Good point, however I wish you could've polished it off more like i suggested in a previous post and someone else about the texture alignment and roof textures. Guess you can't have it all :)

yeah agreed

gameplay > graphics but simple things like texture allignment should be done regardless

it was obvious that all railwhores start whining...

keep up the fabulous work!

Remove rail from the Q4. This is weapon for morons. Quake should not be "no brain, only rail" game. Counterstrike is weapon for brainless kids.

counterstrike is a weapon ?

duh? :D

maybe just a crime against humanity....

lol, sorry, cs is game not weapon

and crime against humanity and esport too:)

Yet it's the most popular. And popular vote also seems to be the motivation for removing the rail... co-incidence? :)

I'm rebuilding boneyards to fit WITH rail. The rail overpowered argument is largely based on the maps that have been destroyed because rail is the by far most useful weapon. We just have to re-think the way maps are designed for this game, i.e a bit smaller and complex. Galang seems to be a nice example but i haven't tried it in an actual match yet.

Galang is > *

boneyards is just about the perfect size for q4's gameplay style, it could maybe even be slightly bigger.

making maps smaller is definately not the solution to rail domination, what needs more thought is wall/room placement.

boneyards was a great start, and the best map to come out so far imo, it actually forces you to run around to different areas as opposed to being stuck in 'one' room.

Rebuilding it to be slightly faster than before which means im making the big room more compact and the ya room will have a cooler look. already played a couple of duels vs my bro testing the new ya room, its hectic!

q4 without rail :/ what is that ...
i cant understand why there are 2 maps with rail ...i dont think rail is that bad or that overpowered if someone can handle the other weapons

thats the thing though isnt it...are they actually using the other weapons? :P

i like rail very much :) BUT also play alot with the other weapons... q3 were also raildominated but it is possible in everymap to break the maplock with the other weapons... yeah its not easy but possible and thats the way it should work. in my opinion :)

q3 maps had items missing, whats wrong with q4 doing the same.

in fact most duel maps lacked at least one weapons, no problem that being the rail in this case..


if by 2 maps you mean phrantic and this.. neither suit rail

no rail? why play this trash

I watched the cooller versus hunter finals on a map with no rail.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=941406

I commented then that it was a very boring demo to watch. This demo wasn't boring to me because there was no rail, this demo was boring because the map design was simply too small and one dimensional. So I guess my point is, taking out a rail will not make a badly designed map more enjoyable. In fact taking out one of the games 'balancing' weapons (which can regain control) is only likely to make the map worse.

IMO a map needs to have enough space that movement around the level is required. q3dm6 is a good example, as is q3dm7, examples of 'out of the box maps'. If a map is of good design initially then you can take or add items to make them superior, q3dm6tmp for example.

I remember how everyone bitched and moaned about tourney4 being a rubbish map, leading to railwhore dominated boring demos. To me tourney4 was the single best duel map in q3, even though it was rail dominant, it was even crazier with the damage through floors! Some of the best demos I have ever watched were on q3tourney4 ... blue for teh win!

In summary, good maps need to be made in the first place, and good maps are generally large enough to force players to continually move from one side of the map to the other. Or not allow players to be able to see the whole map from any one point on the map.

Just a player/demo watcher point of view, not trying to cause offense to anyone.

"So I guess my point is, taking out a rail will not make a badly designed map more enjoyable. In fact taking out one of the games 'balancing' weapons (which can regain control) is only likely to make the map worse."

The extensive playtesting that took place disagrees with that statement.

Q3DM7 good? hahahahahaha, yeah if you like MG cess and instagib...

You newb? q3dm7 was one of the best maps in q3 and most exciting to watch. A hell of a lot of players including pro's love that map.

Yeah those that like mg cess.

you've written q3dm14 wrong
q3dm7 was that 2d map

hope it helps!

?

(HE MUSNT OF WON MANY MATCHES ON DM7 IM GUESSING) BWAHA

but why is this map good if it cant handle all q4 weapons... its like playing golf without having all your rackets ... in my opinion that the wrong way to make a map. Balance the Map for the weapons and not the weapons for the map...

i thought golf was played with clubs, my bad :\

hehe

after playing around with the map i found it was impossible to balance with the railgun still included. the only way would have been to rearrange it so much that nothing of the original would be left. there didnt seem to be much point in doing that. so i removed the rocket and magically the map began to play far better.

btw: u may struggle to play golf with a racket.

I'm sure your aim is definitively shit :-)

No offence!

you definitively can't spell definitely!
edit: no offence?

aAa

Nearly ever AAA guy Iv'e seen online playing q4 plays the most boring style ever often camping, treating everypickup game like a CPL final. Tiptoe around-rail-tip,sg.

The more maps that discourage that faggy type of gameplay the better.

At the end of the day this is one of many q4 maps. Some people like ski-ing holidays, some like beach. Both are totally different, but both are good and encourage different types of play/activity. Deal with it, its here to stay.

what does that have to do with his aim ? o_O

thats no argument. on almost every "out of the box" map in q3 there where some weapons missing and even on the tmp versions it stayed the same. and that is a good thing imho. thats the way to get real homemaps. for example if you know you are one railwhore you may chose a railheavy map lets say q3t4 in q3 terms. if you know you own with shaft you might chose q3t2 etc. thats the way to force people to be good with every weapon else you will give away easy wins.

Anonymous wins.

" but why is this map good if it cant handle all q4 weapons"

That's the most retarded thing i've ever heard.

u talked to me on irc, u've gotta heard worse! :P

"so i removed the rocket"

rail*

and btw i agree with the rail removal it just doesnt fit the map

slashquit.net Australian Mirror

Are these jumps intended with the map design? :>
(1st and last) Like it!

little avi: 7mb
http://www.xs4all.nl/~eye2eye/kaspah/pro-blip_jumps.rar

I like the map better now, less boring.
tbh havnt played the map in a duel yet

n1 @ last jump

yes theyre intended.....theyre is 2 more ways to YA u missed and a few other jumps aswell

you mean those i guess ; ) http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=945442

The textures are really ugly, there is no style its just a bunch of textures slapped together randomly.

And? That movie in the link above shows all you need to see :D

On the topic of the railgun being overpowered, I still feel thats its more of a case of the other staple weapons not being strong enough to counter the rail, than the rail being overpowered itself. Mainly to blame on q4's slow as fuck rockets, which unless I'm hallucinating like how Raven tells me I am, arn't quick enough to provide a strong enough distraction to put off someone's rail aim.

Couldn't care less if blip has or doesn't have the rail, though

Very true!

Need to dump that poxy nailgun and turn it into a proper q2 chaingun with spin up/down - the perfect standy railgunner killer. If you take RG outta a map you get that annoying situation where you keep seeing your opponent, but have nothing left with the range to hit him with any degree of skill/accuracy. Spam lots of rockets and some plasma at targets that will be home having their tea by the time your projectile arrives, get some armor while you run round bored trying to find each other, keep running away easily every time you so much as get hit with a glancing blow with no fear of a rail in the back of the head, then meet up for a wankfest somewhere and repeat, woo thrilling :/

All I'll say is good luck hunting down the cowardly custards who hide when theyre ahead - imagine trying to hit a hiding Fat with some slow moving spam while he constantly sits on the opposite side of the map to you :)

RG is too critical to high speed gameplay to be left out fully, either add more armor for now (and wait for lower dmg) and/or add some tight areas to the map where its useless and foolhardy to be holding a rail. Missing it out totally leaves a huge hole in gameplay strategy, one that will be filled by lots of long distance spamming of NG/HB... ergh :(

Great post. Exactly why railgun should be included in every map, if map doesn't work with railgun then it is a poorly designed map. Watch some of the recent demos on no-rail maps, its a snoozefest. Just rocket spam everywhere, doesn't really showcase the talent/skill of the players.

I think you mean Phrantic?

Watch the demo from Hunters POV and you will see how and why he is being outplayed, and it's a thing of beauty. It DOES showcase the talent and skill of the player, in some very subtle and interesting ways.

Edit: Added reply #