Look at him, all cute trying to nostalgia bait some simpathy.

This the same Carmack that personally greenlit and supervised all the late stage id disasters? And then left the sinking ship for.... facebook, of all companies? Piss off.

it doesn't matter what he did. for some reason, there was zero desire in the industry to make good pc multiplayer fps after the 2008 recession.

back then as a teen, i was wondering why the hell there are only cod and battlefield and csgo, and a bunch of failed titles like tribes ascend and natural selection. what happened to the industry that everyone just completely decided to fuck off until 2016 when overwatch sold 45 million copies.

but there were somethings he did that were silly. he was going to lock all id tech 5 titles to 60fps, which would have also been doom 2016, had bethesda not intervened and forced an overhaul of the game and engine. it also helped that crytek melted down due to constant expansions, so they were able to get one of the devs from there to help with id tech 6. he also spent a lot of time on rage, but the game was still incomplete, ending with a cliffhanger.

overwatch was just a homo-friendly tf2, nothing new, there was already a demographic ready for it. but it was also very polished on launch, with massive marketing campaign, and across multiple platforms. jeff kaplan was probably the last person at blizz to really know what he was doing.

LoL came in 2009 and Dota2 in 2012 so I guess for that period trends shifted towards mobas, with the fps crowd moving to csgo or tf2. how many quakers do you know who moved to csgo when QL hypetrain ended? lots probably.

He also tried to kill strafejumping but was stopped.

His most famous quote is also that videogames are like porn videos, they don't need plots or character development.

Carmack was a decent coder, but nothing more than that. He never understood what really makes good gameplay or good games as a whole.

Rage is the absolute epytome of his vision. A grandiose engine (with tons of limitations) and... nothing else, literally every other part of the game was copied from somewhere else in the desperate attempt to "make it click".

And still that Borderlands clone failed to capture anything that made Borderlands great. Or Borderlands audience.

Just as Quake Champions completely failed to replicate anything that made Overwatch successfull, despite desperately trying to clone the "heroes" aspect down to individual abilities.

He's living proof that game design is not coding.

"Carmack was a decent coder, but nothing more than that. He never understood what really makes good gameplay or good games as a whole."

Horse Shit.

1) He was more than a decent coder, he was pretty much regarded in the industry as the best game engine coder over a 15 year period.
Back then there were no youtube or resources like today.

2) Carmack was a coder, so it wasn't his job to know about good gameplay (even if that is true). That's like saying Miyamoto is a crap designer cos' he was wasn't a good coder.

Rage sold over 2 million copies with a metacritic of 79.

Oh shit, how many copies sold and what metacritic score did Half-Life have? I'd like to know how I should feel about it.

HL2 97%
Over 12 million copies across all formats. Obviously millions on the PC alone around 05-07 when it was at its most desired state.

I was clearly mocking you for defending games from an accounting POV, as opposed to a gamer POV. That's how you destroy franchises you've created and end up being a laughing stock in the very GENRE you've created.

It wasn't from one accounting point of view, it was from hundreds, that's the whole point of metacritic, but just for the lolz, it has a user score there aswell, i,e the gamers, and they (12,000+) gave it a 9.2 Vs a 97 (so pretty close) from more official reviewers.

In a world where fortnite did so well, not sure you can give modern day gamers special status on being purveyors of accurate reviews anyway.

I don't, you brought up sales.

Which engine is Half-Life based on? :-)
I’d say the engine is still 90% Quake ..
For me Half-Life is the best Quake Total Conversion

Carmack was a coder, so it wasn't his job to know about good gameplay (even if that is true). That's like saying Miyamoto is a crap designer cos' he was wasn't a good coder.

If he tried to, say, push to use certain libraries while not being a coder, he would be just as bad as Carmack, yes.

Edit:
At a very basic stage, part of knowing a certain domain means knowing where that domain ends. Engineers don't tell surgeons what to cut. I always assumed Carmack was an amazing coder, but right know is the first time I'm actually questioning that. Because, yeah q3 has always felt best to me, but maybe that's my own gaming bias, because that's the game I've played the most. Truthfully, in the way a game should not be judged by sales and critic scores, an engine should maybe be judged by nothing other than performance metrics. Which I am ill-equipped to do, seeing as how I'm not even a coder, let alone an engine maker. I know his engines have always had bugs, as any engine always has. Maybe he was just a run of the mill code monkey who had the luck of being first and he got gassed by idiots like me praising him for being a genius, so much so that he decided he even knew game design. And while I cannot be sure how smart he was in programming, I know his game design ideas are closer to ESReality bots than they are to geniuses.

Like I said, just ocurred to me now, food for thought.

I don't see any evidence carmack does not know about games (plenty that he does), if the proof is "he wanted to eliminate strafe jumping in quake III", that's probably because he recognized that such a movement mechanic was too much for the masses to get on board with and would hurt the game commercially. Especially as it does not translate very well into a joypad dominated environment.

You generally have to make compromises when monetizing anything.

The proof is his way of thinking is the same as the retards here. "Oh there's a cool bug that raises the skill ceiling, let's remove it". The proof is no one thought of matchmaking, just dumbing down the game. Same as the geniuses here. The most innovative game design didn't even come from id - that was Q4's jump pad and teleporter interaction and crouch-sliding by Raven.

Quake III had jump pads. Just look at dm17.

His logic for removing skill stuff might have been sales based, its well known bunny hopping to the level quake has it makes the game less user/sale friendly.
Doom 3 had the ability to interact with teleporters in the editor to some degree. if you look on aerowalk in doom 3 and fire plasma at teleport they bounce off, it was an obvious evolution game design idea to shoot stuff through teleport.

Both good additions to the game, but fairly obvious tweaks for anyone looking to polish quake III IMO.

His logic for removing skill stuff might have been sales based, its well known bunny hopping to the level quake has it makes the game less user/sale friendly.

A fan of Goebbels I see, keep repeating that, Valve and Riot will remove it any day now.

Doom 2016 don't have proper strafejump either if I am not mistaken, and I don't see anyone complaining about Hugo Martin's failed game -because from a commercial point a view that abomination was a success.

John Carmack is obviously a genius. You don't need to know about coding, just look at the alternatives. There was only Ken Silverman that would be making fps engines that advanced. Both ended up making tons of money because it was the holy grail to create such games back then. If there were other people, they would have done it too.

Yeah, just look at alternatives, all the other engines have their jump height tied to FPS. Such a genius. But hey, it's strafejumping that needs to be removed. Inbred.

Im talking about a strictly technical POV, he was a genius there, obviously I wouldn't agree about removing strafejumping.

This genius made an MP only game with frame dependent physics and BUILT IN 33-66 ms lag. Where does the genius lie? The thing compiling successfully?

How many browser FPS did Ken Silverman make? Another genius idea.

Afaik Silverman greated the build engine, which is a great thing … but basically vanished afterwards … so I am not sure about the talk how he made his fortune « afterwards » or any other projects that supposedly came after, because afaik he became inactive in gamedev … for whatever reason

Duke Nukem 3D was a commercial hit, selling about 3.5 million copies.

Well, with licensing fees and if he got royalties from that he probably retired from that game alone. Add in Blood, Shadow Warrior and Redneck rampage, he should be well off.

He did other stuff after that.

https://voxon.co/behind-scenes-voxon-chief-co...silverman/

He also had carmack and sweeney as his direct competition both of whom were about 4-5 years older than him which would have been a huge advantage as a young 20 something trying to compete in the arena against those two.

Ok he appeared again …15 years after Duke3D …

Fun fact, there was an unreleased Duke 3d map called "Sweeney Sewage Company"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHg5hRwWlrU

https://dukenukem.fandom.com/wiki/Sweeney

3d realms got royalties, not sure about him, do you think he managed to bargain a good contract at that age for himself?

He wasn't old enough to sign them so his dad did it.
I don't know the financial details, I mean, it was a long time ago.
But for a 17/18 year old to be providing a core bit of tech for a game dev which made a legendary game is rather impressive.

Noone questions it is very impressive, that's why it is so weird he vanished afterwards ... but 3d realms wasn't big before duke, so not sure if they gave him a contract where he was set for life, doubt it ...

Exactly, he probably wanted to get his stuff out there more than anything else. I got no idea on the financials.

Why did he not do much else?

My guess is because he was 5 years younger than John Carmack and Tim Sweeney he wasn't able to keep up and his tech was rapidly irrelevant once quake/unreal came along.

Imagine having to compete against tim and john as an engine coder AND being 5 years younger?

IMPOSSIBLE

His last relevant engine was maybe Idtech3, quake 3's engine in 1999. And not even that one, because extremely few other games used it.

All the engines coming after that one- idtech4, 5 and 6 were complete commercial failures. They were also mostly technical failures as well, only good to render small cramped interiors, and very resource intensive.

And no, don't even try the old "b-but quake 3 runs great on my 2023 3000$ rig!"


The real KINGS of the early to late '00s were the Unreal engines and the Source engine.

And let's not forget Crytech that with their Crysys engine blew it out of the park for years to come even if it was heavy. The "geniuses" at id tech could never produce such an engine. In comparison, what they delivered in those years was quake 4's engine.... yeah.

Seeing how Carmack's and Id's engines buiilding capabilities panned out in the last 20 years, it's clear Carmack and co. were just lucky to be early in the industry.

As soon as other talented coders emerged, they couldn't keep up at all and died off into the sideways.

Farcry interiors looked like this in 2004.
https://youtu.be/D0Vw2BijeyM?t=9472

Doom 3 interiors looked like this in 2004.
https://youtu.be/h-qs399HkG0?t=600

Doom 3 is literally LEVELS AHEAD for interiors and offered one of the most memorable graphical gaming experiences of all time when it came out.Nothing came close for interior based graphics at such an early time.

Its also miles easier to make outside terrains, its literally click button stuff which is what the industry moved towards.

He is one of select group of elite game coders like Tim Sweeney even if Tim is the overall winner of game engines, Carmack did other stuff and pretty much evolved the FPS genre. Even source is built on carmacks engine.

You also forget that facebook bought occulus for like 2 billion because of Carmack being involved.

Guy could have died 20 years ago and goes down as a legend. Its done and he was entered into hall of fame by other industry insiders, so making out he's only a legend cos of layman is also wrong. I don't need to be a 100m sprinter to know usain bolt is special.

Not forgetting the 1000's he inspired to get into the industry, but hey that physics cap was so bad!

"And not even that one, because extremely few other games used it."

The fuck man, Quake 3 was one of the most used engines for popular FPS games, I think like every second FPS I played used the quake 3 engine.

https://www.igdb.com/game_engines/id-tech-3/best

You might be right about the later versions, but idtech3 was definitely not a failure.

The grand total of commercially successfull games running on pure Idtech 3 engine is.....

Quake 3. That's it. There was no other big game that decided to use that engine, because it was extremely limited in many ways.

Citing games like call of duty and co. is extremely dishonest, it actually proves how limited the skills at id were since all those other games simply took idtech 3 as a decent enough base and completely modified it, making much better and more capable versions.

The engines Valve and activision made butchering idtech3 and completely reworking it are infinitely superior to base idtech 3. Which would be simply impossible if Carmack was the cosmic genius some nostalgics in here keep pretending he was.

How were random programmers able to improve the base product so much? They weren't cosmic geniuses on par of Carmack, were they? Any change should have made the engine a complete mess, and considering the base engine was barely good enough to run small cramped arena fps levels, it should have made the modified engine usnuitable for literally anything at all.

But maybe Carmack wasn't that cosmic level genius he's presented to be, he was just.... first. As soon as the industry drew enough talents, Carmack's work quickly became obsolete and lagging behind.

Hell, he escaped to Facebook specifically to work on VR technology, and yet Facebook proprietary engines sucks balls and the gold standard was set by Valve with Source 2 and HL:Alyx.

And we're talking post-2020 Valve lol, those guys spend all their time jerking off to kittens or something, go figure.

How old are you? Because it seems you are just talking shit like you never experienced it. The Jedi Knight games were extremely successful, Alice was too. Wolfenstein was a big multiplayer game, probably a precursor to tf2. And although the later call of duties changed the engine in a large way, the first few were very close to the base engine. As I said these games were popular.


And gold source (Half-Life) was based off the quakeworld engine, not quake 3.

Doom 4 was the last huge jump graphics pc gaming has seen.

Cramped spaces maybe, but tell me you didnt piss your pants when you tried the leaked alpha?

idtech 4 was the last genre defining engine from id.

Far Cry was better with open areas but regarding interiors id tech was more focused on that specificity. Let's not pretend to forget that id games were mostly based on interiors, and level design in regard to detailed architecture was better (older) with id engines.
I mean just look at far cry interiors from a mapper point of view -everything was flat walls and it was textures and shaders only to save the somehow decent look.
What I am saying is that it is not fair comparison to put engines especially build for outside to engines based on complex map design based on interior environments.
Unreal engine was also crap from mapping point of view. Most interiors were 10 polygons and some lights and that was it.
|With Doom 3 engine development I agree though that something went terribly wrong.

Guys lets bring back QL to Browser?

QuakeLive.io

Sounds great.

I don't blame Carmack for not taking a greater interest in the multiplayer/competitive side of these titles; I'm sure it's readily apparent to him that it would have been a promising business opportunity seeing how popular the esports schtick has become, but I think career has shown that he's more interested in technical passion projects than in being a company man. I will say that Carmack clearly had problems with personnel, particularly as regards recruitment. He made the right call getting rid of Romero but then didn't think to allow anyone else to influence the projects with an innovative creative vision. I'm not saying the games were bad, but they never broke the mold like DOOM or QUAKE did. Tim Willits is obviously another highly dubious bit of recruitment which we've all experienced the fruits of.

There are many lamentations that we can make about Id's mismanagement of its multiplayer games over the years, and I think the root of this may go back further than some people think - consider for instance, the tension between Thresh and a large portion of the playerbase on quake 2 gameplay when he was hired as a consult on the development of that game. I'm sure there are a few boomers still around who could expand on this and other instances of disagreement with or lack of consultation, or just sheer ignorance of, we the hardcore fanbase. I would suggest there are still quite a few of us who need to upgrade from the consumer mentality of relying upon a private company to take a leadership role in managing and maintaining their favorite hobby.

I agree with Carmack that it was their best title while he was in the company. I don't know all the reasons why I agree but the multiplayer-oriented, perhaps more 'arcadey' nature of the title makes it purer and yet gives it more longevity and, ironically, more depth, in that it is directed at the collective experience of network play. The technical achievements of Q3A (and its predecessors) are still worth their weight in gold. I also think there's a lot to be said about the design, art style and aesthetics of Q3A. I don't know, I'm not an expert on any of this stuff but I do appreciate it in an intuitive way.

Also, they wanna rip into Carmack for not doing all he could for the community, and like, we still out here playing Quake Live and Quake 3 LMAO.

Maybe you should say thanks to Carmack and Id Software for once. Say something nice in the replies and make him smile.

Let's be honest, Q3 was never a real game, just an engine. The community made it what it is today. And these inbreds at id have been ignoring it for decades. Have you ever seen Carmack acknowledge the existence of OSP, CPMA, Defrag?

I don't think people would have called it 'just an engine' when it was released. Maybe you could say it's a bit light on the assets but at worst you would call it a tech demo, which in the most pragmatic, commercial sense it clearly was. You could say that about the previous Quake games, too. However, the community stuff exists because of Carmack's liberal approach to community involvement. Maybe he didn't care much for it but he didn't seem to stand in the way of people building on his material, either.

I get the agitation and I'm there with you to an extent, but what would you say to Carmack if you had a sit-down with him? How would you sell the niche competitive side of Quake so that would have become the main product? That's how people in the community should be thinking, in my opinion.

I would point out that F1 does not need homologated cars to bring in viewers in the way the viewers don't need F1 driving experience to watch it.

Answer me this though, what percentage of your q3 playtime was in baseq3? Not OSP, baseq3.

Edit: And what percentage of the assets can we, the hardcore fanbase, truthfully say that we used/experienced? The weapon models, tankjr and keel? I'll give you the sounds and icons. But we all played picmip 5 and above, on maps which did not exist in baseq3. Q3dm6 is not pro-q3dm6. The enemy textures were always brightskins. Are you sure most of the weapon effects like rail and lg styles came from baseq3 instead of osp/cpma? Just take a step back and ask yourself, would you play 15 years of baseq3? I know that question is rhetorical for BW for instance.

Maybe a lil of a generalized boomer post on my part.

I don't think it's a secret that the art is what attracted lots of people in the first place. Even at launch, compared to other popular (a)fps at the time, Q3's default aesthetics were and still are iconic as fuck. They always stood out and managed to tell an immersive story for a game that practically had...none. Maybe the aesthetics and assets is something that you pay less and less attention to as you grow up and become more invested in the game, but as a kid, it's what you are mostly captivated by..especially during an era where gameplay was still the main emphasis. Despite its flaws, Q3 hit close to the sweet spot, at least for me.

Whether in Q3A or QL, picmip 5 and brightskins was the standard for almost everyone who was acquainted with the game, but to the uninitiated viewers it was a game that 'looked like shit' on stream back in the ESL days. Imagine how the artists must've felt every time they had to read that in chat.

As for the baseq3 experience, i personally played on lan against bots for a few years on the package that was delivered at launch, before i had the chance to give it a shot online at an 'acceptable' internet connection which not many countries were privy to at the time. I enjoyed every moment, and i was only grateful when i found out how diverse and active the community was with respect to third party development.

And, intentional or not, the engine is what gave the freedom and impetus to the community to experiment and go wild with all kinds of mods and assets. It allowed for the introduction of concepts and ideas that would probably and likely never have been. However, it's that 'anything goes' freedom that quite chaotically fragmented the community, sprouting elitist and tribal ones like OSP and especially CPM(A) which ostensibly all things quake should have revolved around. This kind of freedom or anything in between, is something that is pretty much impossible, let alone - unlikely - for AAA titles today, which Q3A barely ever was to be begin with. Yeah, why bother developing the game any further when there are little to no sources of income to support further development, especially when the community is carrying the torch? Have the foresight, let alone the gall to introduce subscription-esque models, skins and gambling in the early/mid 2000s for AFPS? People would have burned you at the stake.

Anyway, I've never been a huge fan of id's management, but I don't think they could've done much to bring everyone together or attract more players for what's intrinsically an arena FPS. It's a genre that has always been a little too one-dimensional in most people's eyes with a steep learning curve no less.

Also:

You play lolca? You're not a quaker.
CTF? What's wrong, not good enough for tdm?
TDM? You're too bad for 1v1..and vice versa.
CPM? You're just not good enough for vq3.
NTF? You're no different than a casual.
You only play instagib? lol
Defragger? You put me to sleep
You play with brightskins? noob (yeah, i do remember those days)
Can't tell the difference between cpma and cpm? rofl
QL? why not just Q3?
OSP? hf with 'built-in' lag

^Good luck keeping track of everything, finding a common ground and making everyone happy without blowing a fuse or feeling out of your depth. I think there will always be pros and cons no matter which way you cut it. But even if you managed to reconcile everything, at what cost would that be? Is it really one person to blame?

Successful esports games exist, successful FPS exist. They created the genre. They could have chosen either path. They chose none. The game being one-dimensional in people's eyes is an indictment on id themselves, especially when they had the privilege to take notes from what is probably the most creative community of them all (yes, enabled by id). And they did not. They ignored their community until other franchises took over the genre, at which point they started copying those franchises.

But hey, who else ran their FPS in a browser?..

So can you elaborate and list some of the things that would have steered quake in the right direction? (aside from not porting the same (more or less) game to a browser)

Lean into "it's too hard for casuals" and market it as an esports title, a pinnacle of human capabilities, the way F1 is. Except it's an F1 you can try for yourself to see how shit you are. The casuals don't need to be able to compete with the pro's, they need to be inspired and awestruck by them. To not get thrashed while playing they need matchmaking and diverse game modes. Thus you take CPM's mantra of taking everything great in any previous game - aircontrol, instaswitch, doublejumping, strafejumping, crouchsliding, teleport & jump-pad projectile interaction, and anything else from other games even and you cram them into a CPM on steroids. Do this only by the way of the 6 base controls (WASD,jump,crouch), i.e. no dash buttons and stamina bars,.. heroes.., just skill(I wouldn't even mention this if not for this bastard stepchild QC). This brings depth and thus longevity to the game, on top of the spectacle that it allows. And it doesn't alienate any previous generation, because you have what you had before, and more. At the same time, instead of just allowing modifications, you actively incorporate them into the game. You adopt the best and most popular mods like Defrag. That way casuals who might just watch a 1v1 between just complete and utter ROBOTS, the way I watch but don't play Broodwar, have more to play than just the official ranked league mode. And you put in modes like NTF, Freeze Tag, whatever the community wants. You see which modes are most popular and see if those make sense to support by building esport around. You incorporate community-made tools, like GTV, Wolfcam, which allow for other facets to strengthen this ecosystem that now starts to resemble a franchise, as opposed to an installment in a series. You work towards supporting it, both through keeping up servers, along with patching the game. You make competitions out of map-making and incorporate the winners as seasons into the official league. You work with advertisers to generate revenue from those leagues, as with all sports. You can get free shit from the community, like frag movies or skins or maps, if you just make a competition out of it. Literally, just work with (or leech off of if you prefer) your community as a positive feedback loop through competition. Then you can do all the other leeching like with skins and nobody would bat an eye, if you were about to ask about monetizing.

through other things q3 engine pushed at the time the implementation of shaders to another level

I played quite a lot of "brute" q3 tbh and I still play it from time to time on t4 (not pro-t4)
also QL older versions were closer to q3 engine than to q3 osp/cpm(a?) and I liked those versions more

Maybe he didn't care much for it but he didn't seem to stand in the way of people building on his material, either.

On the contrary, he did actually care and was the driving force behind those decisions in the company. John Carmack is a real hacker in classical MIT sense and always wanted his tools and engines to go open source, he dives into this a little on Lex Fridman's Podcast #309, around 02:04:42:

I made the pitch internally that we should actually release our own tools [...] what we used to create the games, and that was a little bit debatable about [...] what's that gonna mean for the competition.

But the really hard pitch was to actually release the full source code for the games and it was a balancing act with the other people inside the company, where it's interesting how the programmers generally did get [...] that hacker ethic bit where you wanted to share your code, you're proud of it, you wanted other people to take it, do cool things with it. But, interestingly, the broader game industry is a little more hesitant to embrace that. [...] A lot of people in the game modding community were very possessive of their code, they did not want to share their code, they wanted it to be theirs, it was their, you know, claim the fame, and that was much more like what we tended to see with artists.

complaining about the lack of features while going backwards in time is retarded imo
especially when we talk about a guy who was busy to develop the next game, not to make q3 competitive-friendly
the development of q3 osp took some time, while players and viewers and coders observed the game before thinking about how to improve it
carmack did not have time for all these small adjustments

Have you seen rhea or arQon develop a 3d engine from scratch? no, they couldn't and they didn't, so they had to work on the work of a genius that actually could, in the 90's to boot, with no easy youtube tutorials. You are deluded in your Carmack hate.

You lack self-awareness or reading comprehension, cause I called this. I have not seen qrealka or arqon call Carmack a genius, only idiots who don't think they need to know coding to do so. Yourself. That's how you can insist calling him a genius, while skirting the technical problems others had to fix.

Can’t speak for arQon or qrealka, but I would put Carmack in a genius category.

Each step of the way through Wolfy, doom, quake, d3, and rage his engines were always ahead technically.

Lots of innovation- whether it’s the many clever optimisations that allowed them to be ahead, or ideas such as building scripting languages / VMs into the game to aid game code development and enable modding.

That he can take his skills and move to other domains as diverse as rocketry, VR and AI says quite a lot too.

I mean, that last part just says that he is a programmer. Can't you do the same with your experience too? Or are you telling me he was designing rocket engines? Wiki says he was just funding the project. Strikes me as the genius people peg Musk as.

I'm not saying he is a drooling retard, clearly being an actual programmer (C and engine development) is a higher bar than just coding in python. But it seems to me his line of thinking falls in line with his peers, other engine makers who are most concerned with how fast the engine can run on the latest hardware to the detriment of anything else. I.E. is any engine maker a genius? Or, why did a genius disregard the consequences of frame dependant physics on netcode in the boom of the internet, all while making an MP only game?

From what you're pointing out, to me it suggests a programmer (not just a coder), they always care about build tools, integrations, yada yada. Those optimizations are always stuff programmers care about, I would expect a hundred-fold in engine development. But, at least in the fast inverse square root case, not invented at id, just used by them.

I'm open to having my mind changed, it's just I need the context to be his peers, not people who don't know his domain. Otherwise any engineer can be a genius to the layman.

Carmack has these Quakecon « talks » that last like 3 hours, that itself is also not an easy feet …
For me what he achieved with Quake is so much beyond anything … graphics, own programming language, internetplay over ip, gl quake, quakeworld, besides windows also linux binaries … it is absolute top performance

What was revolutionary about QuakeWorld was the client prediction and interpolation, which every online game does (and QC takes to a completely wrong level).

But that was done by John Cash, not Carmack. Wrong John :)

Oh, and Carmack only made Linux builds for Quake because he was actually developing on IRIX, so it was just a short evening excercise in portability for him (he was doing that anyways because compiling the same code on different systems and compilers was pretty must the best static code analysis tool at that time :) He actually said it in an interview or one of his talks, I'm not biased here)

After Quake 2, TTimo was the one porting/maintaining official Linux clients (up to D3 and QL). And you can tell he meant that - after Zenimax acquisition, he left for Valve and works on Steam on Linux to this day!

Maybe if he hasn't sold to Bethesda, he'd release source for Rage/id Tech 5 (or maybe even Q4, I think they kept rights to the engine, because multiplayer was done in-house).

But remember how in 2008 or so (before the sell) he was talking about path tracing in id Tech 6 (which he never made)? So he left for VR stuff, which went nowhere, with tens of billions wasted. Meanwhile, Doom Eternal (id Tech 7) got path traced reflections like 1,5 years ago ;)

Let's face it, the guy was a genius in real-time 3D fakery. He basically invented all of it.

He shouldn't have left this space, because his prophecies are still getting fulfilled (but with a delay without him pushing the technology forward ;)), meanwhile all his other interests are just waste of time and energy.

It's a common thing, to think a brilliant sportsman or actor is also the best at advising you how to invest (in FTX of course). But people who are actually best in the world at one thing, are never above average in anything else.

This John Cash guy seemed to join only in 1997 though, doing only some "fixes" before (although to do a fix you need to know the code, but it was maybe modular enough to not need to know the whole thing).
Good to know about that stuff with Irix, though I thought it was a NEXT PC from Steve Jobs company at that time if I am not wrong, that Irix stuff is from Silicion Graphics I think, not sure he had one of those, but that theory makes sense that he was already on an unix like system and there was not that much more needed for porting to linux.
This TTimo guy came with Quake 3, okay, but I was solely talking of this Quake 1 performance ...
After Zenimax bought Id there were no more souce code releases, which is true, probably the source code still needed additonal work to get polished for release or was dependent on commercial libraries ... I doubt they just suddendly didn't care anymore for that ...
I am not sure but I think in his latest game Rage he made a wrong move with this texel technology and mega textures ... and doom 3 and rage were good games, but not anymore phenomenal and maybe with things not going too great with the new doom (there was a subpar prototype before bethesda revamped the whole thing) and with zenimax suits on top he decided to part ... I also have a feeling the company wasn't really a family (anymore), they pretty much fired everyone from the early days, several cofounders fired, and maybe there wasn't the greatest atmosphere be around there, there is also this petersen guy who calls tim willits a snake, etc., also this mc gee guy got sacked, etc., maybe it was a bit lonely at the top.
His role with the VR glasses might not be so clear, but he got it started and definitely made it popular, probably also Oculus got mainly started through him, but I am not sure how much it has to do with his technical ingeniuty, and now he has been doing AI for several years and it is not so clear what he is doing there, maybe you are right he should have stayed with gameengines, but I think he could also transfer some of it over to other software engineering tasks, where programming skills are needed :-)

You sure it was John Cash? Or did he just get put on it to polish it and get it suitable for release?

This .plan from Carmack suggests it was initially his pet-project: https://fabiensanglard.net/quakeSource/johnc-log.aug.htm

FWIW, Zoid (of CTF fame) was doing the Linux ports before TTimo took over.

Carmack was the driving force behind both GPL'ing old-era engines, and releasing SDKs to allow modding for the current games. No surprise that post Bethesda takeover and JC leaving this has stopped.

Oh hell, how could I have forgotten Zoid! I'm ashamed to the core. THANK YOU!

That's why I said TTimo was doing this after Quake II, because I couldn't remember who was the OG for Q/QW/Q2, and that was Zoid!

ta

" But people who are actually best in the world at one thing, are never above average in anything else. "

DaVinci says hi!

But suddendly it's not enough for this fool because Q3 didn't ship as polished as CPMA. Geez.

Q3 != Q1, all the groundwork was done in Q1, he didn’t need to reinvent the wheel there

Well that's not an argument isn't it, he invented the wheel at some point.

The point re optimizations is not the fast inv sqrt, but the many inovative algorithmic selections and shortcuts that allowed each engine to be a step up from the bleeding edge at the time it was created.

Wolf3D was a step up from anything previously released.
Doom was a step up from anything previously released.
Quake was a step up from anything previously released.
Q2 and Q3 incrementally improved Quake keeping it in front for quite some time, although they weren't big step-changes in the state of the art, but maintaining quake-based engine as something that was successful for many years.
Doom3 was a step up from anything previously released

That's not a coincidence, that's many years of being at the top of the industry, and all because id, led by Carmack, were managing to produce something better/faster than their competitors.

Re moving to other domains - my understanding is that yes, Carmack was actually working on rockets - eg, I recall a blog post / quakecon talks re him commenting on frustration that the regulatory signoff wasn't really interested in the quality of the code but just focusing on processes. I'm pretty sure he was very involved in the software side, and probably a reasonable amount in the hardware/mechanical too.

Can I move domains - yes, I've done it a few times. However I'm highlighting that he moved from the top of one field ot the top of another, multiple times. In the VR world, IMO he was a big part of why Occulus was successful enough to get bought by Facebook.

Although we've not actually seen his output yet, I also believe he's in the top of the field in the AI world from what he's said - he certainly seems to be well above my knowledge levels, and I'm on the fringes of the AI world.

Re the frame rate dependent physics, that was just a bug. They happen, so get over it. The detail of the bug is easily forgivable technically, especially when you remember that at launch time most hardware wouldn't have been hitting steady high framerates, and also that when using DLL rather than QVM the behaviour was different - I can imagine that the developers would have mostly used DLLs.

That there was no easy fix for the bug without changing the "feel" of the game just meant there was never going to be a "great" fix given it had been released for some time before it was identified, especially given that by then Carmack himself was mostly hands off on Q3 by then.

The point re optimizations is not the fast inv sqrt, but the many inovative algorithmic selections and shortcuts that allowed each engine to be a step up from the bleeding edge at the time it was created.

Well, unless he is coming up with the algorithms, you described an engineer, not a genius.

Wolf3D was a step up from anything previously released.
Doom was a step up from anything previously released.
Quake was a step up from anything previously released.
Q2 and Q3 incrementally improved Quake keeping it in front for quite some time, although they weren't big step-changes in the state of the art, but maintaining quake-based engine as something that was successful for many years.
Doom3 was a step up from anything previously released

If you are referring to the engines, sure, but how is incremental improvement genius?

That's not a coincidence, that's many years of being at the top of the industry, and all because id, led by Carmack, were managing to produce something better/faster than their competitors.

Yeah, part of that is having no competition, because you are the first one in.

Re moving to other domains - my understanding is that yes, Carmack was actually working on rockets - eg, I recall a blog post / quakecon talks re him commenting on frustration that the regulatory signoff wasn't really interested in the quality of the code but just focusing on processes. I'm pretty sure he was very involved in the software side, and probably a reasonable amount in the hardware/mechanical too.

How the fuck is complaining about code quality working on rockets and not code?

Can I move domains - yes, I've done it a few times. However I'm highlighting that he moved from the top of one field ot the top of another, multiple times. In the VR world, IMO he was a big part of why Occulus was successful enough to get bought by Facebook.

No, he never changed domains, he's firmly planted in IT, he's been a programmer, i.e. software engineer, his whole life. Graphics in particular. And you really mention Facebook and VR? Did they scrap Meta? Did you not see those demos? Do you believe he left them something spectacular and his successors just, what, deliberately destroyed it to start off from scratch.? Or is it just that he cashed out, i.e. the Musk thing again?

Re the frame rate dependent physics, that was just a bug. They happen, so get over it. The detail of the bug is easily forgivable technically, especially when you remember that at launch time most hardware wouldn't have been hitting steady high framerates, and also that when using DLL rather than QVM the behaviour was different - I can imagine that the developers would have mostly used DLLs.

That there was no easy fix for the bug without changing the "feel" of the game just meant there was never going to be a "great" fix given it had been released for some time before it was identified, especially given that by then Carmack himself was mostly hands off on Q3 by then.

Oh no, no, no. That is pathetic. I may not be a coder, but you're going to have to work a lot harder than that, to tell me, "It's just a bug, get over it", when we are talking about engines. Especially when trying to convince me the guy was a genius. I don't even know if mediocre programmers should get this excuse. The detail was not easily forgivable, technically, because it needed fixing. And no engine (correct me if I'm wrong), has this bug today. I.E. it's only forgivable to regular people. And that someone else needed to point it out, is further proof he was no genius. A genius would focus PRECISELY on that bug, because he should be able to have the foretelling of its effects on netcode, especially when he is making an MP ONLY game. And that most hardware wouldn't be running high FPS at launch time is another excuse which is fine for normal people, not geniuses. Especially when it's not even their first rodeo.

You want to convince me? Ignore everything but the last paragraph. Resolve that core paradox. How does a genius make such a mistake? Physics, netcode, multiplayer only.

"Yeah, part of that is having no competition, because you are the first one in."

The reason there was no competition because he was one of the first people to figure it out and invent it.

Go look up the definition of a genius.

"exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability."

an exceptionally intelligent person or one with exceptional skill in a particular area of activity."

He more than qualifies.

Its kinda funny watching you bounce around trying to attack a world renowned coder because you don't like he's respected and admired because you already know you're going to die with none of that.

Buggy code is the standard, not the exception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK8fgDXDGKg

There is a complete play though of the game its nearly 2 hours long, feel free to list some examples and times of where the "buggy code" breaks down and causes a problem.

Not gunna bother arguing the points, as my time is more valuable than that (although there are answers to everything said above).

I only posted as you were saying that people who were not coders weren't qualified to judge him as a genius in the field, so thought I'd give my view as someone with 20+ years experience of both commercial software engineering and quake modding.

I guess you no longer believe this given you seem to consider yourself qualified to comment, so I'll leave you to your ranting.

Conflating qualified with infallibe? What javascript can do to a man...

And your 20+ years experience was only worth "QVM" here. Everything else was the same garbage everyone else posted, that I called out from the start - everyone assumes he is a genius, because everyone assumes he is.

Although we've not actually seen his output yet, I also believe he's in the top of the field in the AI world from what he's said - he certainly seems to be well above my knowledge levels, and I'm on the fringes of the AI world.

Unless you count arrogance, but IT has never been short on that.

Yeah, part of that is having no competition, because you are the first one in.

Geniuses have no competition because they are indeed the first ones to come up with stuff. Just stop posting or keep complaining about muh bug.

ps: btw, unfixed physics capped at 125fps feel better than CPMA VQ3/QL. Just strafejump around an OSP server then do the same on CPMA VQ3/QL. The correct physics slowed down the game and feels heavier, unfixed 125fps vanilla physics feels floatier and faster. Anyway, 99% of people that played Quake back in the day were too noob to even realize bunny/strafejumping was a thing which makes this even more irrelevant.

Doom 3 was supposed to be released with the engine hard capped at 60 fps. Everyone knew it was retarded, and the huge fan backlash at the mere suggestion that could be a possibility made them change idea.

Again, they were mostly clueless well after the industry already had higher standards.

And the tying the physics to the frame rate is not a simple accident. It's a fuckup of colossal scale, something that is only excusable coming from a teenager coding its first programs, not a "literal genius".

Btw said "literal genius" was developing the games on pcs that didn't struggle to run the framerates at physics-breaking pace.

And many random people in the public could at release. So there was no excuse.

And it's no surprise that they did even worse with quake champions, the literal damage output of the guns was tied to the framerate at launch.

It's an Id software tradition at this point. No wonder they're the only ones using their engines.

I think the only ways you can think Carmack was a genius, as a quake player, are: you're a casual who thinks quake (1,2,3 at minimum) movement ends with WASD, jump and crouch, OR, just like Carmack always did, you think that's where it always SHOULD have ended. Because bunny-hopping, strafe-jumping, double-jumping, they're all bugs, not features. And I'm jaded enough to know the second is possible, but not stupid enough to think the first is. Help me out, is there a third option?

I'd say the third option for quake players is sheer nostalgia. Remembering when id and its titles were at the top of the gaming world, and that aura of success somehow validates the idea that Carmack was the sole responsible and entirely for technical reasons.

Its got nothing to with it, the guy is globally recognized as a leading light in videogames.

Its why he has a worth of tens of millions, is top 10 at IGN poll, and inducted into the videogame hall of fame.

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-bus...net-worth/

https://www.ign.com/lists/top-100-game-creators

Valve's source engine was based on his quake technology.
When you consider the influence of Half Life and Counter Strike has, Carmacks work was powering and inspiring a lot of people, even outside of quake.

Do you happen to know anyone else in the gaming sphere that received a Bafta award?

I found out the other day the IW Engine used to even make the most recent Call of Duty game is based in Id Tech 3. I almost couldn't believe it but it's true.

Hey, what field in ai are you working in? Im really feeling the ai excitement with all the crazy stuff comming out in so many fields.. Also what do you think about ai being used to rerender old games?

Object detection and classification at the edge - running AI models in a high end camera for traffic surveillance and enforcement.

The AI side is reasonably well defined at this point - deep learning based image detection and classification are no longer bleeding edge research topics, although getting it applied in real-time at the edge isn't common place yet and certainly isn't trivial.

Agreed, plenty of interesting AI stuff around, it is a very fast moving area, and things are changing pretty rapidly at the moment.

Re AI re-rendering, I think there is potential that you could re-render things using AI generative models, but getting consistent and stable images that look good will probably be a bit of a challenge. Looks like for real-world based games it might not be too far away though. I'm reminded of this thread I saw on another forum which shows the potential of even old 80's 2d games to be re-rendered with impressive results: https://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=438793 (cherry-picked examples, so certainly not suitable for realtime processing of game output, but it shows what could be done if someone put some work into it).

I think you're being a bit conservative here Anthony:

Q2 and Q3 incrementally improved Quake keeping it in front for quite some time, although they weren't big step-changes in the state of the art, but maintaining quake-based engine as something that was successful for many years.

Q3 literally forced the graphics card industry, kicking and screaming, to support the full OpenGL 1.1. I see that transition as being just as important as the reliance of pixel shading in doom3.

I don't think that carmack just played with the engine and did not care for the game.
We tend to forget what was the mindset at the time.
Since the dm scene was quite fresh at the time it was the people who started asking "what if we would have a game based on doom/quake engine but focused only on DM"?
To which carmack responded with q3 -which some older players liked some not (I recall a quake1 pro player complaining about quake3 and when asked by a reporter he said that he don't intend to switch to quake3 because "too much aim").

Which is explainable since people did not put much money into online fps shooters at the time.

I uploaded this years ago, should be some good reference for this thread...

https://www.esreality.com/post/2394980/quake-...1999-scan/

Do you still have that magazine?
I would like to know why HK is piracy paradise :)

I log in to ESR a few times a year and I'm amazed at some of you still lingering here.. you have set a new low in this thread, peeople who don't amount to anything and with zero awareness trashing John Carmack.

I'm glad the man moved to other hobbies, maybe you need to grow up too.

Oh no, someone thinks the creator of my favorite childhood hobby is not a genius, they need to grow up!

ESR would NOT exist without carmack, his game inspired other people to make websites (this one) around the game he made, which in turn inspired users to join the website.

Many people here have made real world jobs, friends, finances from the gaming community his initial creation spawned. His contributions are so fundamental and far ranging you could write a book on it.

Every thought you have ever processed on this site, is fundamentally down to his initial work.

He owns you.

And none of that makes him a genius.

You're right, that's closer to god status.

Every reply you make on this site is because once upon a time he sat down with a blank screen and wrote a masterpiece comparable to any Mozart or Beethoven :)

In your attempts to shit on him, you've really added more content for google to index towards his legacy. I never really thought how far ranging his contributions were until now.

People got married to people they met in his games.
Got jobs.
Stacks of cash.
Ferraris
Travelled the world.
Entertainment.
Built Careers
Spawned other games on his tech which did all of the above again and again.

Don't let it eat you up inside.

I'm sure you've done loads of great shit in life :)

John Carmack had a Ferrari.
Point's over.

the duality of shitting on carmack for having the advantage of being a pioneer while also shitting on carmack for not actually being a pioneer

The literal godfather of First person Shooters
Meanwhile on ESR

> Yeah but can he bridge to rail? prolly not because he wanted to remove it

C A R M A C K
A
R
M
A
C
K

It's tantamount to betrayal to insist that the person that's responsible for making your life better (whether it's just introducing you to one of your favorite games, to as far as said game possibly helping you meet lifelong friends) should be canceled or should no longer be viewed in a positive light because of what they said or different opinions they hold.

I feel like once someone has earned your respect through hard work and determination it should be nearly impossible to lose it. Like, it'd have to be something so intensely negative and detrimental to society that it'd completely undo all of the good work they've done. Controversial opinions definitely don't qualify as "intensely negative and detrimental". People wanting to cancel him for attending BasedCon for example; like if that's all it takes for you to stop liking him, did you really look up to him in the first place?

Part of it is our society's heavy bias against negative stigma and attributes over positive qualities, only made worse by cancel culture. Instead of weighing good and bad equally, people will see one blemish as enough to ruin a person even if they've done a lifetime of good. And I'm aware that this is part of our human nature - it's a survival mechanism. But we're not in the wild hunting animals anymore. We're better than that (or should be). Be better than that.

(Not aimed at OP btw)

I'm pretty lefty and I don't really care. The feeling I get from the situation is that he is friends with the organizers, and doesn't really care about politics, which is honestly similar to most of my friends. I don't expect all my friends to be pro-lgbt or attend pride events or some shit. But I mean he is also American, which means he is going to be more right wing than most people in the world, and like he is from Texas and created doom, so like... people shouldn't be getting all in arms over something completely unsurprising.

I mean if he came out and said we need to eliminate these transgenders for destroying our traditional christian family values, then I would be a bit more ehhhhhh.

Who is openly pro-lgbt outside of EU and US (some states)? I would say Australia/NZ and that's about it.

I would say South Africa is very pro lgbt, and I think South America? But I meant that he is probably more right-wing than people in western europe, rather than the world.

Sssst! The US and its vassal states the whole 20 or so like to pretend that they are the entire world. And don't even bring demographics numbers :))) like China + India = how many??

Also Eastern Europe is not very much pro- either, but their political class is being pushed by the small West toward it through carrot and stick ways -say the wrong opinion and we will shame you for not sharing "European values", cut funds and foment revolts. Like Emil Cosman use to say "blackmail, threats, population uprising and if this does not work then straight US invasion".
But believe me, the general population in Eastern Europe although part of the EU does not love these ideologies.

Carmack merely made a game, but let's not forget Tim Willits invented it in the first place

In fact, I believe it was Tim Willits who invented John Carmack.

By most standards 130+ iq is considered genius level, and carmack is in the 140+ range at least. Note joe rogan scored a 126 to give some perspective... Carmack revolutionized gaming and he did it multiple times.. commander keen with its inovations, wolf 3d, doom, q1.. those are all big tech milestones..

We need a petition to call on carmack to give us an AI renderer for quake 3 and make it look like this :
https://youtu.be/50zDDW-sXmM

Not sure that would work on quake due to its architecture and textures not really resembling anything in the real world.

Real life was kinda the holy grail for a long time and now we're kinda getting there, I dunno, I kinda think there will always be a need for a game to look like a game just as a cartoon needs to look like a cartoon.

Real life visuals will be another preference once the wow factor has been absorbed.

Its amazing to get there, but we're kinda there already, ue5 can basically render unlimited polys of real world scanned 3d modes and textures. A concept a lot of us (including me) were scoffing as being impossible on a large scale 10-13 years ago. Though in fairness that was a culmination of various improvements across several fields, including photgrammetry software and cpu and gpu.
Its not really been one person who did it.

People should never forget that Tetris was the biggest selling video game of all time.

A game anyone could make in less than a month with zero game, art or code experience.

Yea that approach is specific to gta5, but im sure theres a way to create something that will work on top of q3.. imagine all the defrag maps rerendered with ai...

Check this out:
https://www.zbrushcentral.com/uploads/default...7e89c.jpeg
https://www.zbrushcentral.com/uploads/default...434f4.jpeg
https://www.zbrushcentral.com/uploads/default...d83ac.jpeg

Just give us a Q3 rerelease that looks like this, matchmaking, CPMA tier netcode, ragdolls, that's about it. And host monthly tournaments with some cash for online players to keep a nice competitive edge and something to train for and look for regularly. This would be better than QC and less of a hasle to maintain due all the different champions and so on running some dodgy engine to boot.

that looks like a convoluted singleplayer poop slapped together by blue-haired interns using outsourced assets which in addition to being an eyesore has no redeeming competitive-play value whatsoever. it's only missing the mountain dew logo. you complain about QC and then present parallel-universe QC as the solution. but i'm sure hypertextured ragdolls rolling and tumbling around the place and some extra blinding floodlights will turn it into the heavenly Q3 reincarnation we've all been waiting for.

just let it go man, QL is as good as it's going to get. it's not 2002 anymore, neither is it 2010. if you're in Europe, there's tdm/ctf pickups. if elsewhere, my condolences

You would be able to enable vertex lightning, overbrightbits, r_picmic 5 and make it look like Q3 anyway, which you cannot do in QC. QL sucks because you cannot do this in half of the maps. They look too bright.

I use these settings, all maps are fine for me:

seta r_contrast "1"
seta r_enableBloom "0"
seta r_enableColorCorrect "0"
seta r_enablePostProcess "0"
seta r_fullbright "0"
seta r_gamma "1"
seta r_ignoreHWGamma "1"
seta r_intensity "1"
seta r_lightmap "0"
seta r_mapOverBrightBits "10" (needs to be 10)
seta r_mapOverBrightCap "180" (use this one to fine-tune it. range is 0-255, for me anywhere between 150-200 seems to be optimal. If I didn't have Flux running I'd probably have it on 150)
seta r_overBrightBits "0"
seta r_vertexLight "1"

also, for the lulz:

seta r_picmip "6"
seta r_textureMode "GL_NEAREST"

If you still have issues maybe you have some hardware gamma / windowmode problem or some other cvar doing something weird.

Let me know if you want a screenshot of any specific map.

> seta r_mapOverBrightCap "180" (use this one to fine-tune it. range is 0-255, for me anywhere between 150-200 seems to be optimal. If I didn't have Flux running I'd probably have it on 150)

Yeah, that's what I do, but it's so annoying having to change a setting and do a vid_restart depending on the map.

I just settled on 180 as a good middle ground for all maps tbh. maybe flux running helps in that regard

Im running f.lux the problem is the brightness from the game itself. 180 too high in some maps I reckon, like House of Decay or that big one for CA with the wood tables. Man why they had to do this? just leave the engine as it was previously I mean wtf. It doesn't even look any better or anything. It was good back then. It's just an extra annoyance for nothing.

Agree 100%

just came across this

Just give quake3 with last graphics visual stuff advanced physics and revolutionary AI.
It is mostly players fault why they dont play and compete in q3 imo. Noone put a gun to your head to go and play Overwatch.

+he gonna be at QUAKECON 2023 Middle of August


"I am happy to report that @Project2501_117 and I will be at Quakecon this year with the official blessing of Id — I was a bit concerned I was still unwelcome due to the Zenimax/Oculus affair, but all is good! We will have our VR headsets in the BYOC, but I expect it to be a throwback to the first Quakecon with a lot of impromptu hallway talks."

should be time when Q2 Remaster release <3

Q2? it already had the RTX thing. We need a proper Q3 release for the 20th anniversary.

Quake 2 RTX is nothing more than a visual "upgrade" (in quotes because honestly I think RTX looks ugly/overly shiny in most places); it doesn't add any new content or significant features.

The Quake 1 Remaster was a big deal not because of the visual enhancements, which were very minor comparatively to RTX - it was because it gave us a brand-new high-quality single player campaign, a brand-new game mode, officially-endorsed mods including a port of the Nintendo 64 version of Quake, and lots of quality-of-life improvements like accessibility features.

A Quake 2 Remaster would hopefully be similar, where we get some new official content, and very possibly a PC port of the entire Quake 2 N64 campaign, which to this day still hasn't seen fully completed (the furthest one, Mission 64, stopped at the Strogg Freighter).

2 new campaign it had i think the Q1 remaster

hope Q2 also same kind of treatment in a month :))

heck/HELL maybe AQ 2 as mod or RA 2 too :))))))))))))

Quake 2 does not have the Single Player legacy, while it was a good multiplayer game ...

But as far as multiplayer everyone still using whatever equivalent Q2 had of OSP or CPMA I suppose.

>The Quake 1 Remaster was a big deal not because of the visual enhancements, which were very minor comparatively to RTX - it was because it gave us a brand-new high-quality single player campaign, a brand-new game mode, officially-endorsed mods

You mean like how the Q1 community is doing exactly that frequently since a hundred years?

Meh

Yes, I think you can have more content from a commercial vendor even if you had free community content. Are you implying that's a bad thing? What would your preference be?

>Are you implying that's a bad thing?

I thought it was obvious by the context. The guy I replied to calls the Q1 remake a big deal because it brought new maps and modes to the table. Thats a ridiculous take if you look at what the Q1 community has been doing for the last decades.

The Q1 remake was a big deal because it brought back attention to Q1, and also the thing with the officially endorsed community mods.

Are saying you would prefer they did not release any content? This whole 'big deal' categorization seems subjective, and besides the point.

A company releases an update. Someone does anything. Someone replies 'meh'. Should the people releasing content take it to mean they should not release anything?

How do you manage to misunderstand me that badly? Lay off the tiktoks, bro, and read properly for a second.

My criticism was aimed at you lol. You said that the Q1 remaster was relevant because it introduced new high-quality maps to the Q1 world. Thats just silly and plain wrong.

Q3 Remaster, do you guys think it will be a hit or... a miss?