who?

nadal doesn't have muscle anymore. i don't know if you've noticed.

Just watch his arm... And the way he yells every shot, just gets on my nerves

he is on drugs, just like all the other sportguys from spain

true, it's a shame.
still waiting for the day when they find out about the organized doping in the spanish football team and Barcelona. :D

honestly tho, it's a huge fucking problem in spain.

nah man, they are just a race of "Übermenschen"

Yet they don't get caught on international doping tests, except for Contador because of fucking clembuterol (traces of a substance known to be in many meats with little beneficial effect for a cyclist, in a quantity not enough to provide any benefits and on a single day during the Tour).

Throwing that baseless shit around as a fact just because there are a couple of top athletes right now that happen to be exceptionally resistant and Spanish is stupid.

You may want to look under your carpet for a certain mr Fuentes, I think your government might have swept him there.

Also there was a dutch cyclist recently who confessed that when he bought his epo and stuff, he could just drive to spain and buy it over the counter at any random pharmacy without any problems whatsoever.

Yeah, Fuentes had a huge doping business with lots of clients from all over Europe. What does that have to do with Nadal or the football national team?

nadal was on the list of fuentes, make some research

No he wasn't, do some research. A random French newspaper talked about Nadal being Fuentes' client without any proof and that's it.

they have also proof your football players are regular clients of fuentes, they mentioned one famous club, it was either real madrid or barcelona, I think it was even barcelona ...

and on a different note, what does your spanish government do against contador, there is proof he was drugged in the tour de france,
your spanish fail government does nothing at all ... nothing at all ...
instead they try to make evidence disappear ...
this just shows how your country is ruled, how the justice in your country is working ...
spain was never big in sports ... and now out of the sudden they win so many things, probably because there is no justice and moral in your country, but unlike 3rd world countrys where justice and moral is at the same level you have better technology and also scientists doing research in basements on how to drug your athletes ... the ruling countrys of the world have by far better technology than you, but for them sport is still a sport ...
you see what usa does to their olympic gold medalists cheating or the one tour de france winner, and now they also try to get armstrong,
in your country this will never happen, instead your government backs up this shit ... congratz on your lies ...

No, see, there's no proof at all of any of that, it's just speculation, often coming from French media and nobody has been able to stablish a link between Barcelona and Fuentes (and trust me, the media in Spain would fucking LOVE to get even the slightest proof about that).

The whole "Spain has never been good in sports" is bullshit. Spain didn't have a #1 tennis player (except for Moya for a while), but has consistently been the country with most players in the top for years. Cycling: again, probably the strongest nation along with Italy for many, many years, including one of the best in history (Induráin, who probably doped himself btw). Football: notorious underperformers and now good because of very few players that happen to have been together for years playing a certain style. The rest of the sports? Not bad, mostly thanks to the ADO program (which is the biggest reason of any improvement over the last 20 years).

The government doesn't have to do anything to Contador and the evidence is a sample that has never disappeared. It's the courts who have to rule, and the case is still open. Oh, and there have been other cyclists in other countries that tested positive for clenbuterol and were cleared.

Also, people seem to forget that Fuentes had a network that spanned many countries, it wasn't only in Spain, and that it wasn't until the Spanish authorities started the investigation that the other countries were able to uncover the bullshit in theirs.


By the way, what about your country clearing Ovtcharov?

No, see, there's no proof at all of any of that, it's just speculation, often coming from French media and nobody has been able to stablish a link between Barcelona and Fuentes (and trust me, the media in Spain would fucking LOVE to get even the slightest proof about that).

Haha yeah the spanish press would love to see the downfall of their national pride NOT

Yet they don't get caught on international doping tests, except for Contador because of fucking clembuterol (traces of a substance known to be in many meats with little beneficial effect for a cyclist, in a quantity not enough to provide any benefits and on a single day during the Tour).

The quantity is consistent with food contamination, there have been many athletes caught with clenbuterol and many cleared (ex: Van Houts not long ago, yet nobody blames the Dutch for anything). Hell, there are certain countries where you can expect to test positive if you eat the local meat.

You wanna know why he got cought? To that day there was no laboratory which was able to proof those small quantities.
You wanna now what they did find as well? A high amount of pvc plasticizer. Guess how you get that and how blood is

Yeah, Fuentes had a huge doping business with lots of clients from all over Europe. What does that have to do with Nadal or the football national team?

A coincidence that every spanish rider got removed from the case while basso and ullrich got suspended :D?

No, see, there's no proof at all of any of that, it's just speculation, often coming from French media and nobody has been able to stablish a link between Barcelona and Fuentes (and trust me, the media in Spain would fucking LOVE to get even the slightest proof about that).

Yeah blame it on the french press rofl ...
It is proofen that messi got pumbed full of growth hormones. I love clueless people like you who think that soccer is a clean sport. Just because epo doesn't have the same big effect in football as in cycling it doesn't mean that doping is useless at all. And no the spanish media wouldn't love it because they are so fucking proud of their national heroes.

Cycling: again, probably the strongest nation along with Italy for many, many years, including one of the best in history (Induráin, who probably doped himself btw)

Haha you are so fucking clueless.
A coincidence that indurain never won a tour from 85-90 and suddenly he dominated it. Google epo ...
Also Salbutamol which luckily for him wasn't on the doping list.
Just to name a few other "clean" spanish guys.
Roberto Heras
AC
Valverde
etc.
Team Banesto and Kelme etc.
A coincidenc that french, german and italian riders play a minor role nowadays after the anti doping laws got tightened in those countries :D?

The government doesn't have to do anything to Contador and the evidence is a sample that has never disappeared.

A coincidence that the spanish law removed every rider from the case and even backed up some of them? Valverde, one of the most talented spanish rider at the time, was linked to the Operación Puerto and guess WHO backed him up. Speakers of the spanish cycling union and even the spanish gouverment itself!!!!!. Luckily the tour in 08 was leading through Italian and a doping sample proofed to 100% that the blood they found in the razzia was his. Guess who still didn't want to suspend him. The spanish cycling union :D.
How come everytime a spanish sportsman is involved the fucking gouverment intervenes?
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6111856
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Galgo

It is all just a fucking coincidence and the rest of europe just envies the raw spanish talent and started a hunt for no reason :(

I guess there must be something in your genes or food (LOL see what I did there :D) that makes your country so special and superior amongst others. Just to name a few other countries which were once known for their superduper athletes. I mean there is no proof that athletes from the USA, Udssr, DDR, China etc. were using doping. It was just a fucking coincidence that some femal swimmers from the mentioned countries looked like bodybuilders :x

Haha yeah the spanish press would love to see the downfall of their national pride NOT

Huh? You know the Madrid press loves to bash Barcelona and are the first to jump on the doping bandwagon whenever someone mentions it, right? They even outright accused Valencia and Barcelona of doping but had to drop it when the legal threats started.

You wanna know why he got cought? To that day there was no laboratory which was able to proof those small quantities.
You wanna now what they did find as well? A high amount of pvc plasticizer. Guess how you get that and how blood is

[q]A coincidence that every spanish rider got removed from the case while basso and ullrich got suspended :D?

I guess you missed how Valverde got suspended and many others, mostly Spaniards, are still on the list.

It is proofen that messi got pumbed full of growth hormones. I love clueless people like you who think that soccer is a clean sport. Just because epo doesn't have the same big effect in football as in cycling it doesn't mean that doping is useless at all. And no the spanish media wouldn't love it because they are so fucking proud of their national heroes.

Messi had a growing disability for which the treatment was growth hormones. Should he be banned for life for that??

I don't think football is a clean sport. I don't think any sport is clean nowadays, but to imply that it's somehow worse in Spanish football than in other countries when the players have to take the same tests is just speculation. Nobody complained about doping when France or Brazil where steamrolling the competition. And, again, you don't know shit about the Spanish media.

Haha you are so fucking clueless.
A coincidence that indurain never won a tour from 85-90 and suddenly he dominated it. Google epo ...
Also Salbutamol which luckily for him wasn't on the doping list.
Just to name a few other "clean" spanish guys.
Roberto Heras
AC
Valverde
etc.
Team Banesto and Kelme etc.
A coincidenc that french, german and italian riders play a minor role nowadays after the anti doping laws got tightened in those countries :D?
The government doesn't have to do anything to Contador and the evidence is a sample that has never disappeared.
A coincidence that the spanish law removed every rider from the case and even backed up some of them? Valverde, one of the most talented spanish rider at the time, was linked to the Operación Puerto and guess WHO backed him up. Speakers of the spanish cycling union and even the spanish gouverment itself!!!!!. Luckily the tour in 08 was leading through Italian and a doping sample proofed to 100% that the blood they found in the razzia was his. Guess who still didn't want to suspend him. The spanish cycling union :D.
How come everytime a spanish sportsman is involved the fucking gouverment intervenes?
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6111856
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Galgo

It is all just a fucking coincidence and the rest of europe just envies the raw spanish talent and started a hunt for no reason :(

I guess there must be something in your genes or food (LOL see what I did there :D) that makes your country so special and superior amongst others. Just to name a few other countries which were once known for their superduper athletes. I mean there is no proof that athletes from the USA, Udssr, DDR, China etc. were using doping. It was just a fucking coincidence that some femal swimmers from the mentioned countries looked like bodybuilders :x

I don't think you understand how that works. It doesn't matter what the president says, it's the courts who pursue these investigations. They only backed Contador (and they shouldn't have).

I already said there's a huge chance Induráin doped himself (and Contador and any cyclist nowadays). What I'm saying is that it's stupid to put the blame on Spanish athletes without any proof just because there happen to be a handful of good players nowadays, specially when there's been a progressive improvement since the ADO program started in a big country where sports are practiced a lot more than in other places.

I love clueless people like you who think that soccer is a clean sport. Just because epo doesn't have the same big effect in football as in cycling.

i don't necessarily believe that's true, the fifa doesn't test a lot (we know that, they basically only test around the pitch) and we have little idea what they test on.

around 2000/2001 a lot of rather famous players got caught in italy with nandrolone (couto/davids/stam among others) and not too long ago mutu got caught with cocaine.

if they even test for epo we don't know, i'd say it would have a much larger effect than any testosterone on performance in football, but who am i to say that :p

hard to say really. I think the components for a serious advantage achieved through doping in football are different to the ones in cycling. There is more to football stamina and speed, a lot more in fact. I think it's a very brainy sport actually (not to confuse with smart, don't even get me started how daft some footballers are...). This is not some praise for football btw, I think I've seen about as much football as i have seen cycling in the last 12 months.

In cycling however, I find it somewhat obvious how doped the cyclists are. If you have a couple of guys training ridiculously + juicing up and barely making it into the top 20, then noone in their right mind can tell that everyone else in that top20 is clean.

i agree with everything you say (and i love football a lot, heh), just two things about the possible usefulness of epo in football:

after the CL final i think it was guardiola who said that in current football it is still not possible to do "forward-pressing" over 90 minutes as the players are unable to recover fully and will slow down after ~70 minutes.

with more and more of the top teams having more than one game in a week and longer seasons overall, there is a definite need to help with recovery in between games aswell, again... epo is atleast a thought i'd have if i were in their place :p

spanish and italy strongest nations of cyclism ?

Funny I didnt know the current top1 is belgian, nor did I know the best cyclist ever (to most specialists and cyclist fans) was Eddy Merckx. I think he is belgian aswell.

I was talking about the last two decades or so, when you can see lots of Italians and Spaniards in the top, more than any other nation (although Belgium is certainly strong too, even more if you consider its size).

weren't you the guy defending sombra?

No.

my bad. must've been hard to spot amongst the hordes of your compatriots who did.

The thing is we havent had a true tour rider for a long time. We have a ton of strong cyclists that can support leaders and stuff.

But on the otherside cyclism isnt all about tours, also the classics are important


But I get what you meant ;)

Here are some random quotes from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case#Suspensions


Other athletes

On 5 July 2006, Fuentes was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players.[52] On July 27, 2006, IAAF was assured by Spanish prosecutors that no track and field athletes were involved.[53] On September 23, 2006, former cyclist Jesús Manzano told reporters from France 3 that he had seen "well-known footballers" from La Liga visit the offices of Dr Fuentes.[54]

In May 2007 Sepp Blatter, president of FIFA, at a World Anti-Doping Agency meeting in Montreal, was reportedly interested in the contents "of the Puerto file". [55] Le Monde had reported in December 2006 that they had possession of documents of Fuentes detailing "seasonal preparation plans" for Spanish football clubs FC Barcelona and Real Madrid. These plans did not specifically name any players.[56]

No other athletes had been named.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eufemiano_Fuentes#cite_note-3


Fuentes continually denied having performed illegal operations and also said that he did not work exclusively with cyclists but had other athletes as clients such as footballers.[3] However in December 2010, he is quoted saying: "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup".[4]

Again, no names, no links, no proof, despite there being a list with lots of names from many sports.

The bit about the World Cup is something a random burglar that happened to be detained at the same time as Fuentes said he had said. Fuentes denied having said that, by the way.

totally unbiased spaniard right here

Not unbiased, it's just that it's stupid to say that it's a problem in Spain when the Fuentes case is related to athletes from all over Europe.

That's like saying "AIDS is a problem in the rest of the world too, don't look at Africa!"

clen is a heavy cns stimulant that also increases both airflow to the lunges and oxygen transportation inside the body (and it makes you lose weight even faster than ephedrine).

oh, and it is water soluble, which means if he doesn't fuck up he could very well take it at the start and have the stuff diluted out of his system by the end of a race, which would also explain the trace amounts they found.

the meat excuse? please, wouldn't someone else on his team ate the same meals he did?

so i guess, no matter how little the amount found in his blood was, that does make me a bit curious :p afaik the wada also does not have a threshold for clen, he's fucked no matter what.

maybe it was something else he took and the clen was there to hide it in one way or the other and it backfired pretty much.


edit: TL;DR little beneficial effect for a cyclist is complete bullshit.

You know they don't test everyone on the team every day, right??

The quantity is consistent with food contamination, there have been many athletes caught with clenbuterol and many cleared (ex: Van Houts not long ago, yet nobody blames the Dutch for anything). Hell, there are certain countries where you can expect to test positive if you eat the local meat.

And well, afaik it's no coincidence that not many cyclists have tested positive for clenbuterol, as opposed to other sports.

the quantity is also consistent with clen intake before a race.

i don't care about the spanish, the dutch, whatever... this sport is full of drugs and anyone winning the most prestigious race is bound to have done drugs, be that in the past or during that race.

i don't even care if people take performance enhancements, there shouldn't be any misconceptions about its use though, that's just silly.

tbh fuck sports whose outcome can be decided only by chemicals.

true, another reason why i like football, raw strenght/power/endurance plays a role but it isn't as huge as in other sports.

it's good the chinese girl won :-)

qilai! qilai! qilai!

Agreed, brings some fresh air to the tennis scene. I feel like I've seen this final one time too many.

no that's really bad. chinese athletes are unnaturally drilled in the millions to show the world how great china is when all they do is win by sheer numbers and relentlessness. those athletes are completely burned out at age 30 or earlier

she is 29, and you read about her she is not a stereotypical athlete from china

is tennis considered a sport?

Some people do. It's one of those things where there are many different surfaces (clay, grass, hard etc) and the competitors get used to it when they play

Instead of just saying they won't turn up because they're not used to the setup there
















OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

Federer is a fucking twat for beating Djokovic, uncharismatic sack of salt.

And now of course he is going to lose to doping boy for the 999th time in a row. Fuck both of them.

rofl federer is getting worked by nadal, again.

Comeback.

Nice.

tennis is a gentlemen's sport, quake is....not

I wish it were more. Still tennis is about throwing a ball at 200km/h to the other guy, the only thing gentlemany about it is the whole attitude. Quake tends to produce childish and unsportsman-like behaviours, fuck me if I know why...

fuck :<

Pampers on Federer's ass once again when playing vs Rafa.

i'm tired of thoose retard folks from Roland Garos getting over my streets this days !

While admiring the totally outstanding skills of them both, I can't force myself to like neither of them. Hewitt, Roddick, Djokovic, Agassi ftw! :]

so many errors from federer sigh! some good tennis though... nadal now 45-1 (or something) overall at French Open... pretty much speaks for itself. Don't like his play though, he pulls out some amazing shots, but I hardly see any variety (i don't watch that much tennis)

nadal is da mayyynee. runs down everything.. not as much as before when he first started but still plays it out!

Tennis has been the most boring shit these 25 last years. I'd rather watch the swedes play a single ball for 10 minutes, 200meters away from the net or that annoying english prick who'd whine at every single thing for the fuck of it than all those IMGONNAKILLYOU - SCREEEEAAAAAM - RAISE MY FIST IN THE AIR AND SCREEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAM EVEN LOUDER fuckwits we've had since.

'Boring' is a matter of taste, as a generation we are very lucky to have seen two absolute masters play at the same time, being Federer and Nadal.

We have also been lucky to see players like Messi and the current Barcelona line up - possibly the best football team ever.

I'm not interested enough to care about the technicity, I'm bored by the mentality.
It's fucking tennis, not " I was trained to crush my opponents by my abusive father and a whole team of guys 8hours a day, force fed with the idea that acomplishment could only come that way and by the time I realized that I was too deep into that shit to make my way out -- oh btw, I also show it on the court ".

the japanese have it all figured out. also, look up David Foster Wallace, who almost wrote a book (Infinite Jest) about that quote you just made up lol.

I really want to read that book :)

If you prepare for like, stuff like this. From page, 170 (i'm at like 300 now), with exponentials indicating footnotes listed at the end of the book:

"The incredibly potent DMZ is apparently classed as a para-methoxylated amphetamine but really it looks to Pemulis from his slow and tortured survey of the MED.COM's monographs more like more similiar to the anticholinergic-deliriant class, way more powerful than mescaline or MDA or DMA or TMA or MDMA or DOM or STP or the I.V.-ingestible DMT (or Ololiuqui or datura's scopolamine, or Fluthane, or Bufotenine (a.k.a. 'Jackie-O.'), or Eben or psilocybin or Cylert^56; DMZ resembling chemically some miscegenation of a lysergic with a muscimoloid, but significantly different from LSD-25 in that its effects are less visual and spatially-cerbral and more like temporally-cerebral and almost ontological, with some sort of manipulated-phenylkylamine-like speediness whereby the ingester percieves his relation to the ordinary flow of time as radically (and euphorically, is where the muscimole-affective resemblance shows its head) altered.^57"

Wish I could say I have looked up and learned every new word so far, lol.

Haha, granted that is incredibly convoluted, I'm use to reading philosophy texts so I will struggle on! Is the book at least worth the effort?

Infinite Jest is 1000 pages long. That's a good chunk of life. I'm not familiar enough with literature to make a definite judgement.

Personally I have maybe 4 reasons for reading it. These four reasons combined will likely conspire to make me finish it.

1) It is a much discussed, intellectually acclaimed contemporary work dealing with modern America.

2) It is written by someone who has written a Master Thesis on Modal Logic in Philosophy.

3) It deals with someone who's good both athletically and academically, and tries to "go pro" in Tennis.

4) It is written in this informationally dense format that I want to learn from and that I find appealing in an almost ritualistic or autistic way.

DFW was a genioos. The Pale King is very good too.

How did reading an unfinished book work out? Only other book I was considering was Broom of the System, as it's supposed to be more philosophical (?).

It doesn't really feel it, since it's so fragmented and disjointed anyhow. I'd recommend it although it is a challenge. If you're interested in the contemporary American condition I'd recommend Freedom by Jonathan Franzen. Very different to Foster Wallace but great.

hehehe, i've been talking a lot with my room mate about "freedom" so I can kinda guess where the book is going already, maybe. to be shallow, those black-rimmed glasses he wears in all photos turns me off, but i guess the description of the book may make up for it. in any case, i have more than enough to occupy myself with next half year with these 700 pages left of Wallace. literature is like a sidetrack grove i get into when i find a need to clear my mind of all the other things going on at the time x)

On the subject of modern American prose. I am currently reading 'Point Omega' by Don Delillo - it is very small @ 117 pages but its ok, few nice existential musings.

Next up I have his 'breakout' novel so to speak from the the seventies, 'Ratner's Star', the synopsis of which sounds great!

And after that I plan on reading 'Underworld', his magnum opus - A massive (800 page) fictional Cold War history using multiple perspectives and locations to explore the concept/story.

On the subject of 'the Broom of the System' apparently the novel (this is according to Wiki) deals with the idea of what it means to be a real living person as opposed to a mere linguistic construct such as a literary character. It supposedly deals with concepts pioneered by Wittgenstein.

Underworld is a good one, but yes very long.

Did you find it enjoyable?

Yeah, Wittgenstein has those tendencies. Reading him right now actually. I find it very interesting this glide where existential fear goes from "a fear that he was just a 98.6°F calculating machine to a fear that he was nothing but a linguistic construct." Essentially that's the thought i try to internalize when I rant like this or echo warnings like this. Philosophy really comes up short in *demonstrating* the consequences of some view. Very hard to get a sense of how we would view the world given that we accept or reject some abstract principles of selfhood, sense of ownership/agency, intentional action so on.

Maybe i'll try reading Omega Point. I love to run over short books quickly every now and then, just to orient myself and get up to date on what people are thinking (:

I would love to discuss your post further but I've just finished cleaning my house and I'm buggered.

Regarding Point Omega, yeah you can smash it in one night. I read more than half the book last night in one sitting before going to bed, I'll finish the other half this afternoon.

A fair few of Delillo's books are short so you should scope out a few!

A good alternative is to simply watch stuff that decenters everything human, including language, like this and this and this. Or if you wanna be more fancy, stuff like this ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXO7KGHtjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_gBSWE_KYE

flawless victory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGWJbcTvL_M

welcome to the 1980s. is japan only now discovering the concept of singing animatronics? I guess their advancement is in still having the minds of SCHOOL CHILDREN through adulthood.

copy right removed

mind of child is useful these days

what is that 3d projection technology called I didn't know that existed

think it's actually just really good 2d, but i've no idea who made it. crypton future media is in control of the general show and synthesizer voice (which they seem far more proud of)

I like watching tennis. More interesting than other sports. I've played it a bit, dunno if that's a major influence.

raythenoob agrees that it's like Quake, full of cheaters

I'm glad to see all the Djokovic fanboys forced to eat their shit. I hate that whiny fuck and the mentality he represents. Too bad that Federer, yet again, didn't even come close. It's funny that of all the playing styles, it's Nadal's that he struggles so hard against, even outside clay courts.

Fed struggles vs Murray too

Federer has a weak backhand, Nadal's lefty. Probably doesn't help.

go djokovic and FUCK YOU CUNT