T9 is a nice map yes
T4 wasn't bad tho
why can't we have both? :(

The real question is why do we have T7

T9 is dog shit.

t9 is by far best map <3 lots of fighting <3<3

T9 is really best map tbh.

T4 with that spawn system wasn't THAT bad and was actually a nice chance in pace compared to the other defensive maps.

Bring it back I say.

t4 based on aim, aim maps isn't fun playing it day by day.
With old big hitboxes it was realy realy shit map, but now with changed spawn system and smaller hitbox (not every lamer can hit now 50% rail) , maybe its playable map.
t9>>>t4>t7

masters of T4 jibo and zero4 weren't known for their superior aim

+ isn't t4 supposed to be rocketspam land once you reach a decent level?

wondering about this too..

Well jibo had superior aim to allmost everyone, except toxjq and maybe cypher.

maybe, but he didn't win games on T4 purely based on aim. some times he had unbelievable crazy moments but to my recollection his rail % was usually 30-35 on T4 wich isn't that high.

accuracy doesnt matter

it does matter but yeah i guess you are right accuracy =! aim

but to say it clearly to the likes of you Jibo and ZeRo4 didn't own T4 based on their aim. and now STFU

to put jibo and zero4 in the same t4 league is a bit exagerrated imo. jobo was the aimwhore of t4 but this doesn't mean that he was more than just good on this map
z4 on the other hand was a fuckin monster on t4 when everybody played the map like hell, while jibo was dominant on the map at the end of t4 era, or better said after t4 died or there were so many maps played that most of the time you could avoid the map or it did not count that much, many pro players did not like t4 and did not practice on it too much because there were 5 or 6 maps they could choose instead. also if I am not wrong, z4 was beating jibo on t4 pretty convincing at eswc masters(?) 2008 or smth

no. jibo beat zero4 on t4 at eswc grand final and he made a joke about having learned to play the map from watching zero4's demos

I've only seen the t4 match with z4 beating jibo
any link/demo smth?

"having learned to play the map from watching zero4's demos"
u sure that was not the cypher's statement after he was beating z4 on qztourney4 @qcon 2008?

yeah my mistake. but this just proves that you don't win T4 with aim if zero4 beat jibo on it

yep, I remember watching t4 z4 vs jibo on gtv then. this is the moment of truth, aim or style, I thought

Not really. The map is rg and rl heavy and z4 is great with both.

you are just taking what i've said to the extreme. every top player has an amazing aim. some top players just have better aim than other top players. i think jibo has better aim than zero4. and i think zero4 didn't dominate T4 with his aim. like i implied in one of my replies to guard i think the map is more about positioning.

He wasn't that hot at T4 to be honest, by no stretch of the imagination was he a "master".

i disagree just due to personal opinion. maybe he wasn't as good as zero4 on T4 and it wasn't dominated by him throughout his progaming career, but he got better and at the end of Q3 era i think he was untouchable on that map. i was really impressed by his play on it and no matter who he played on that map the odds favored jibo.

I think he got worse at t4 over his time at the top.

zero4, czm, socrates were all better pt4 players.

for their time they were the best pt4 players, yes, but seeing the demos now don't really impress me. i just think jibo's pt4 in 2008-2009 was on a different level than any other active Q3 player's

Jibo certainly was one of the best t4 players in russia during the cpma era.

But he is also a notoriously hot/cold player, some days he would rape the likes of cypher etc and on other days he would lose vs frozen or something.

The difference comes down to how many shots does the other player get? If Jibo is land 35% pixel rail shots and never giving his opponent a single opportunity to shoot back, than that's the type of quality aim that makes champions.

In other words,

JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO JIBO

yeah, top6 best world players dont have aim, sure :))

i didn't say that. what i mean is that they didn't dominate the map with their aim. the only time i remember someone win T4 just because of aim was strenx vs spart1e at dreamhack

your arguments favouring t4 are always useless when you try to convert a guy who doesn't like a map because he is not good on that map -despite the fact that guard must be some kind of aimwhore too :))

Wasn't Zero4 outrailing absolutely everyone on his prime? Huge advantage on T4.

no

nah walter was clearly the better railer.

yes he was, dont listen for "kids in quake" , t4 is heavy RAIL/AIM map. can be "miracles" then some pro wins agains other pro with 15% rail, but its like 1 of 20 games max.

it's more about not putting yourself in a situation where you can be railed, not about the opponents aim

whatever dude..
i know , i played lot t4 map in QL Q3 Q3CPMA . My rail is is realy shit, I know how to play this map, but if player hits good, you cant anything to win.

so rapha's rail is the best then?

I'd say his rail isn't much better as yours and yet he owned noctis (who definately has a much better rail as either you or rapha) on t4 in that tourney right after quakecon last year.

There is obviously more to t4 than just having a good rail

you are dumb sorry :)
stop talking about top5 world players, they can own 99% players just with shotgun in that map, but doesnt mean that map isnt all rail..
I played this map tons before, I won most matches becoz of strategy , not becoz of aim(rail), but then you face top player with better aim, you have no chance at all.

the topic asks "why did we replace T4 with T9?" so we are clearly talking about the map pool that is used in tournaments. and usually top5 players play in the tournaments

if you are not playing in the tournaments then T4 didn't replace T9 and you can play any map you want. and then, yes, 99% of the games i imagine revolves around rail. but we are not talking about 99% of the games in this topic

You pretty much summed it up.

Noctis was interviewed later on and he said that he was obviously expecting himself to win because he had played rapha a number of times before and was aware of his style. If someone with noctis' aim can lose on T4 then it's quite obvious that there's more to the map than just rail.

Also, Cypher didn't beat Zero4 on T4 based on aim alone @quakecon 2008. He was taking very angular rocket and rail shots at him which explains how important positioning is on T4. Also, he was very difficult to catch for Z4 who knows the map inside out. Some people here need to watch that match again (with commentary). Cypher's hitscan > Z4's hitscan as proven on other maps at Qcon 2008.

Z4 out-rocketed everyone on t4.

he, true true
^^

Why ppl [+] nonsense so much on this page? ;o unkind cooller etc. had clearly the best rockets, no? :-/

t4 baby...

Meh, t4 duel in qlive got ruined when they decided to screw up the weapon/ammo system and timelimit.

Not only t4..

Sorry. Knew I forgot something. :p

T9 is for those who hate rail. People who love T4 could counter-argue the point when T9 fanboys call T4 a railwhore's map. Looking at it that way, T9 is nothing more than an LG whore's wet dream.

I love both the maps because both make positioning the single most important aspect.

T9 is lg/rl map, becoz its dont have rg :))
I don't mind to add t4, we need have some aim maps, not all brain/skill.

Obviously, I was pointing at the weapon trade off. T9 and T4 have the same set of weapons - both have Plasma, SG, RL. Again, T4 has rail but T9 has LG.

T9 adds GL as well but since it's not a more open map like T4, covering your tracks becomes important. Both have YA's and Mega and no red.

To me, both the maps are pretty similar. It's just one (or two if you want to count GL) weapon that separates them and maybe an extra bunch of teles.

so in general you want to say , we need change t9 to t4 , or just telling some map "facts" ?

I'm simply stating that people who call T4 a bad map and T9 a good map in the same sentence have never heard of the word "Oxymoron".

pls stop asking for old maps in the mappool

any new player wouldn't have a chance against an old t4 player

yeah lets have more maps like dm6 and ztn instead.
wait....

t9 is an old TA map, but b/c it's shit no one ever played it until id forced it on us.

t9 is a remake, not just an old map, but a remake

with the addition of the teles and different item layout it became very different. whereas t9-old prly felt like 'places of many deaths' and maps like those, t9 is a very valid tourney map for advanced and professional players. some might say it is a bit random, but try to keep control, try to run two armors and stay alive OR try to get control back with shards and one ya, and possibly with just one of the two main weapons, it plays very alike t4 (i don't have so much exp with that map tho) and - to repeat - is a very valid duel map.

Nah, it still sucks. :D

just do as cpl tell you

T7 is objectively the best map, then comes dm6, then ztn. T9 and dm13 are shit maps. I would like to see t4 instead, at least its an honest map. But honestly, we need hub in (heard its good and saw it, looked nice). And perhaps some other new maps, or good old ones.

"heard its good and saw it, looked nice" :DDDDDDDDDDDDddd didn't realize how nub you are

came to the quake scene last year march, but i already sparred with top players like stermy.

this means you will become the new ruler for sure!

you paid him for it so it dont count

oh didn't know stermy played against nubs

i came in last september and i've beaten u a couple times
cookie for me?

dude take a good look at t7 and the rest of quake maps...its so ut99 alike it just doesent fit in

i heard the next up date will give the rail an alt fire for a combo too

would be so awesome :)))

IEM4 needed 5 maps, there were 7 duel maps played (ca2, t4, t7, t9, dm13, dm6, ztn). The players voted and t4/ca2 got removed.

When they put hub in, what map should be replaced for?

where was this vote?

IEM4 GC Dubai's players I guess.

I suspect 2GD cheating on the coin against t4 there

easier for him to say "mega is coming in 20 seconds, and after that he has exactly 5 more seconds to catch cypher offguard, before going to RA" than commentating t4: " he has 3 seconds before the other yellow armor comes in, and then ermmm... dunno what's next"

Where's that sense you're trying to make? Can't see shit cap'tain!

land ahoi!
the pure sense is t4 is not too much of a pro-ego commentating insight case. the action is hard to predict and must be a pain in the ass for 2GD to comentate matches on the map, and pretty hard to keep the spectators entertained, unless you try the american approach on it (I've seen him once commentating t4 and he tried dm6 style -now there are exactly x seconds and then he has to go for the other armor -thing which did not happen anyway as t4 is not that much based on armors control, but positioning, imagination, aim, proper weapon choice and especially style)

tl;dr

short story I think the maps poll was a corporationist rumor orchestrated by these three men behind the courtain: 2GD, Jamerio and Jonesy Inc. :P

if that really happened, i don't remember it :F

I don't really remember all the details about that. I wasn't part of it, just heard about it :)

Cooller called Carmac and ordered voted to replace t4 with t9.

put hub in, bring back t4, that's all.

t4=t9 with rail
mind blown?

coz its better

they should make it so every teleport costs you 20 hp...

interesting

get map control, win the game yay!

they should make it so every teleport gain you 20 hp...

t7 and t9 have always sucked. :<

But I don't get it, you can still play pt4? I played it like a week ago, it was fun! You sure are missing out!

t4 = old
t9 = new
i think both maps are fun to play, they have their own style but also have their flaws.

and stop whining about t7, best map in ql atm

zzz

ztn is best map in ql atm, all of the rest has some flaw or other, t7 is very much aim heavy, + that sg spawn near RA ruins so many games.

ofc, cuz ztn does NOT have ANY bad spawns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4CAf04Ils
oh w8..

Old patch.

ppl can still do this

I tried thousands of times and failed. I must be a failure.

if you can't even spawnrape, you ain't very good at duel are you? x:

Point is, if this kind of repeated spawnrape happens rarely for all players and rarely in competition matches, it's not a HUGE impediment, at least not as big as other areas such as sound, hitboxes or netcode.

I agree that the spawn system is kinda fucked, but you don't see this kind of repeated spawnrape in every match. What should be changed with priority are the unbalanced starting spawns, which can affect the course of the whole match, and happen really often.

yea mate true :/
inital spawns should be 50-50 idd :/

maps! buuuuh!

Thank god t4 is out, hopefully dm6 is next, I'd honestly rather see ca2 than dm6 in map rotations. Hub should only be ported if rail is removed.

don't worry. nothing will change.

quake has become pathetic a long time ago. it is far from the game it intended to be

q3 basically became crap when hardware became good enough that everyone had huge jump height and you could just press jump constantly and get out of the way of RL attacks; also with maxpackets 125 etc and everyone using high sv_fps on their servers shaft just became too dominant. instant hit weapons were more dominant than RL & there was only a certain amount of advantage that tactics could offer from this point on - the most important requirement was now your ability to aim with instanthit weapons

CPMA was just the nail in the coffin, those guys thought they could re-invent quake and while they probably made improvements technically, it ruined the feel of the game

and let's not talk about the feel of QL, that and the netcode is so botched it defies comprehension


dont worry about maps dude - i personally dont whine after it, but everyone should accept that the game we loved is long gone

lol

So you're basically saying that good hardware which makes you play the game in decent conditions actually ruined it. You also say that the fact that everyone had the same fps made things utterly unbalanced.

I agree. I would also add that better net connections worldwide made the game feel like shit, you left that out by mistake I guess.

no one gives a fuck about quake anymore except us

:(

WHY DID WE REPLACE Q3 WITH QL

Please give your reasoning as to why you think this happened. Does everyone really think QL is a good game?

Im asking myself the same question lately...

q3 fan boys wanting to relive the glory days of q3. instead of a step forward we took a step back in time thinking it was best. the quake community got exactly what it wanted, not what it needed

q3 community being sheeps

I play ql just because of the community... q3/q4 community doesnt excist anymore. Everyone changed to ql because everyone changed to ql. So I had to change too or to give up quake at all.

Ofc I prefer q3/q4 to play

because cpl told you to

WHY DID WE id REPLACE Q3 WITH QL?

as incorrect as it gets, q3 was getting along just fine for many years without any support from id, but as soon as they mention quake + new + awesome in the same sentence, the sheeple 'we' are just decided that it really must be this new awesome quake game and therefore moved on

q3 players has always been idjiits.

it sounds like the same scenario happened with q4

Quake + new + "awesome" = pffffft

I can't say too much, I wasn't in on it then, but it just sounds the same as you said for QL. I play QL cause its the only quake I've got, for better or worse.

Because we are a community without a central entity (read federation) that can stand for our interests and whose decisions are recognized as official by most. So the only thing we do is to follow whatever voice speaks louder and ID promoting QL was quite a call.

t9 is lazery awesome

I really miss watching games on t4 , too bad its out and I dont hate t9..... but t7 is the great map, and a really refreshing in a sea of old q3 maps....

Because good maps are preferred over bad maps.

I humbly suggest our dear esr admins reintroduce the possibility to [-] the shit out of a few pr0players posts so that we avoid suicide bombers during the next quakecon.
Thank you.

lol

:D have a plus :3

if that'd be the case we would only have 3 maps in the tournament pools.

dm6, ztn and t9 ? :)

ztn/t4/dm13 ;p

And to think you once thought pt4 was shit :D

was shit in cpma :F

Because T4 was horrid and T9 is ... Not as horrid.

are we having a debate on t4?!?
really?
tought we did this before...

Christ.. Having a debate on this doesn't solve anything. The pro's should have a vote on what maps they want in the future and the crying spectators with all their oppinions should remember who's spending tons of hours on practising and be happy with that they get.

And the pros should remember who spends tons of hours spectating them so that they can afford to spend tons of hours practicing them and be happy with what they get.

Afford? Is this a joke?**
It wouldn't matter how shitty attitude the pros had cuz the spectators would still be there. Might even be more specs thanks to the drama.

**I shouldn't even have to go into detail regarding this - it's not some cozy fairytale beeing a pro. What pros get is the ability to have fun and compete @ lans. You can argue about money but lets get real here.. I'd make more than a quake champion from working a normal job.

Get over yourself.

hohoho :)

You might make more money, but which would you rather do whilst your at college/uni/whatever. Flipping burgers or shooting rails?

Im currently studying, working extra and shooting rails. Since I've been in dubai and texas I know the deal it's all nice but there are only a handful who make money on it. I might add that even if you win money in some events there is approx 4-6 months wait time before you see it.

Yeah but that is the deal. You get to travel around the world and if you're good enough, get into a decent team where you'll get hardware, possibly paid (I dunno how that shit works) and tournaments.

The "if you're good enough" is the key part to this working though

At the end of the day, it's the spectators that 'pay' for the tournaments, not really the players. Afterall, they are the consumer.

Get banned from cpl esl events : done.

The pro's should have a vote on what maps they want in the future

I agree, but I don't think anything like this has ever happened.

i think it was for dubai, where we "voted" and had 9-7 in favour of removing dm6 for t4 but the tournament staff didn't wanna change with only 9-7.

Carmac the tyrant - Supreme ruler and dictator in the world of QL.!

Wouldn't have worked to be honest. People can hate all they want on dm6, but at the top level competitions it still gives results.

If dubai didn't have some of those dm6 matches.... damn that would have been a lot less eventful (cypher/strenx, cypher/dahang just to name a couple)

Well that's something positive, but I don't like how they wanted to replace DM6 with T4. I rather see something like T9 gone, because I don't think it's a good map at all.

Maybe an alternative vote would of been to get each player to list the five maps they wanted, possibly putting them in a priority/preference order. I would like to see more than just the top 16 players vote on it though. Maybe top 32.

wsvg did it...and "a man called sun" somehow made it's way onto the map list thanks to the PROs...soooo yeahhh.

While I don't have a problem with pros choosing what maps they want to play in a tourney they are participating in (hey, they're playing it, after all), I don't think the community should just "get whatever maps the pros/whoever votes picks" unless the community is involved in the voting as well.

maby ask carmac if you could try it for next iem? :o

wrong.... pro players wouldn`t be so "pro" at all if there is not a scene behind them that supports them, so all the spectators and ppl involved are actually the main key behind the "pro" players in the first place and should have the same if not bigger amount of votes then players themselves. (ok maybe not bigger amount but ...u get the point xD)

I define pro as an individual who surpasses the others playing the game.
I never opposed the idea that you split up the voting between the community and the players but it should atleast be 50-50 then.

ps stop feeding it........

oh, i always thought pro stood for professional

See "pro" short for professional in this case professional Quake Live player.

2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional

When I said "pro" short for "professional" that was what ! I ! meant in MY post. I'll just call them gosus instead then... Since there should only be 5 players that fits the description above.

good :)

Well, in general people get what you mean, but in this case there is adistinction because to earn money you need some sort of scene and in general also spectators. While gosus just need to own.

everyone knows that carmac is behind this...

Quake is just like grandma'bling.

lmao@community

T9 is better than the 'walk to win' of dm13 or the 'make first frag with decent stack left to win' dm6.

Giev hub. With rail, plx.

SEVEN MAP MAPPOOL

1. seven pool
2. zerg rush
3. ?????
4. kekeke

part 1: seven pool
part 2: ?
part 3: profit