i think he should use UT3 :)

eswc has always been a spectators event, as opposed to for instance the cpl.

yep! luckily the UT platform is a long step in the right direction in terms of entertaining spectators, including casual spectators.

wouldnt that need a spectator mode?

?

UT3 has no spectator mode.
=\

It does.

ut3 has utv? I think not :<

UTV =! Spectator mode

we both know that he was talking about utv

Why would he be? he was talking about eswc, spectator mode would be needed for casters and the big monitors, no utv is NEEDED (even though it would be much better obviously).

That was a fucking poor reply.

fail.

I don't know if anyone has noticed yet that the current release is a "beta demo"..

o sry. i thought I read somewhere that the full version didn't have it either. =\

Hm, strange. For me, Quake has always been the most "console" of the two, especially in terms of features/configuration. The thought that UT wouldn't have a spec mode strikes me as pretty insane tbh.

But hey, it's ESR :p In any case, both the full version and the beta demo have it.

Yeah, Quakeworld until ezquake 1.8 was pretty console heavy. I'll definitely have to give you that.
I'm buying Ut3 when it comes out, for the record, but I'm only getting it for the CTF.

Ok, I've asked around in game and I've googled it. I'm doing something wrong, 'cause I still haven't met anyone that can tell me HOW to spectate. So enlighten me.

I haven't actually done it myself, but you get the IP for your host and go:

open <IP>:<port>?spectatoronly=1

in the console.. (you can see this parameter linked a couple of posts below)

lol! whut?

=-\

Are you being serious?

ye, it wasn't supposed to be a "feature" in the demo, but they found this way to do it in the console. In full it will be a browser option of course :P

The spectator command has always been mate ;)

Ye, not sure who found it first but I know I tried it off within the first few days of the demo as that was the commandline I used myself to connect directly to servers in ut2k4 as a spec, and luckily the command was the same in ut3 =)

hah great point

?spectatoronly=1

Q4 = hugh huuugh huuuuugh huuuuuuuuugh huuuuuuuuuuuuugh huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh

UT3 = huugh.. klop.. klop.. klop.. huugh klop.. klop .. .. .. klop... huugh..

I started of playing UT99 went to q3 and then q4. Cant stand watching UT anymore.

And yes I know it's about more than just movement physics. But movement sure makes a great deal. And I guess you wont get amazed by the top players movement either 'cause you could probably do the same after 10 minutes of trying.

Im tired and bored. Only posted this because there's no [ - ]

Hmm.. it's more like "hup hup hup" isn't it?

Just one curious thought here:
If UT3 was patched to be just "huuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh hup hup KLOP hup huuugh hugh hup", like just one LOUD "klop" in stead of many small ones, together with more and longer "hughs", would you enjoy it? Or do you feel it needs even less "klops"?

I know it's not quake but I'd enjoy it if you could maintain and increase speed. Only closecombat movement is kinda boring to watch imo.

The good UT maps are usually shaped to create a minimal amount of "klopping", with jumpboots/jumppads/lifts/teleports and many height levels. As a player you will usually avoid long transport runs. In CTF you have the translocator of course.

You, and many other Qboys, are after all UT noobs. And I don't mean the "N-word" to offend you, just to inform. It just means you are trying to judge the game as a pro eSports platform while seeing it through a noob's eyes.

I dunno man. I only like the vehicle CTF so far. Before Ut3 came out a bunch of LAN buddies of mine that have all played UT2k4 for years were showing me the game 'cause I asked them to familiarize me with the gameplay. (I'd never played UT, just the original Unreal single player)
I didn't win by less than 10 points the entire night, and they finally just stopped playing with me altogether. Especially by the 5th game or so, when noone was even getting frags on each other, I was doing it all.
Most didn't believe I'd never played it. A couple of them insisted I'd played for years longer than they had.
And even whipping their Ut asses, I was still bored.
And this was FFA. I'd be bored to tears in a Duel.

UT duel FTL.

Conclusion, without a single doubt:
- they were all UT noobs
- you were an UT noob too, but with prior FPSing experience

As I said. I've played UT99. I also gave UT2k4 a chance. Although its not about judgeing as a "Qboy". It's about enjoying the game as a spectator. I know it's my opinion but now I was whining about the learning curve of the movement. It's simply not as fun to watch as Q4.

The difference is that skilled movement shows in Q4. It's needed. Its fun to watch. (like skating, snowboarding, bmx etc)

The UT one. Ofc it's needed to be able to move around on the map. But its not possible to make it very "cool". And the learningcurve is alot lower so you wont se any amazing "tricks".

Im not saying you have to be less skilled to be the best UTplayer or anything. As you always got to have higher skill than your opponent no matter what game you play. That would just be retarded.

Nah, again; a lot of UT movement is about moving from A to B without using the default "transport movement". The maps decide this. Running down long corridors like in Quake = fail.

I have probably played Q4 more than you ever played UT. :p
Combat in UT is more diverse than Quake, as we all know. So, I could say the same thing: "where is the diversity in Quake combat", but I don't. Because, from personal experience I know that Quake has it's own appeal with positioning, angles, prediction, feigning, and as you say, movement.

So even though Quake seems boring as hell from a combat perspective, I still found value in it. But I couldn't enjoy Q4 while judging it from an UT perspective, because it wouldn't stand a chance. I had to view it for what it was.

If you think UT has no eSports/spec potential, consider that guys like Redeye, Carmac, Nicky are UT fans. They are major eSports resources and real enthusiasts. I don't think that is coincidence. I think UT creates enthusiasm for eSports, and it will be great for ESWC to add it.

I haven't mentioned the other features of the game. I'm sure theres lots for the eye of the beholder. But I'm still talking about the movement. I dont care if the Lord himself love the game I'm talking about the movement.

And I doubt you played Q4 more than I played UT since it isn't possible. Although I mostly played instagib i liked it. It's ok to refere to me as noob on this point to if you like.

And btw, I was talking about the movement and the learning curve of it.

Hm. I started with Q4 as soon as it came out, played on the Tourney servers for a few months (until a group of smartasses decided Tourney was lame). I have also watched a lot of demos and been to ESWC (!) to watch Q4 a couple of times. Btw, instaGib is not UT :p

The movement of Q4 took me about 2-3 weeks to learn, then I could hop across the strafejump practice levels. It was really fun to learn strafing. I also learned the different corners and slides specific to each map.

UT has a different learning curve, which in my opinion is more inviting to new players at first. Still, it stays interesting at high levels, also in terms of movement. (UT star GitzZz was known for his excellent movement)

Anyway.. no reason in converting you to UT.. that's not my goal here. But I insist that UT is a good spectators platform, and it has in my experience, a way of igniting people's interest in eSports.

The "spoiled" response Q3 fans gave Q4, showed why the Quake platform is a poor base for eSports in the future. In my opinion.

Q4 got what it deserved. They'll learn to not release such piece of crap software out of the box.

Further explain this concept of quake combat being boring and lacking in diversity as compared to UT :>

- dodging is, after all, combat movement
- more, and more diverse, weapons
- multiple weapon modes
- the shock combo

Edit:
and like I said, I don't consider Quake more boring even though the combat is kind of lacking. I realize I have to view Quake from a different angle to understand it's appeal.

multiple fire modes are gay, really gay

if 8-10 weapons isn't enough then I don't know what is

what can I say to this piece of crap of a post other than *yawn*

you're as bad as the rest of them (myself included) so fuck off

multiple fire modes are shit, shit and shit. always fucked me off and will always carry on to do so.

Nope. I never used "is gay" as an argument, because I'm past 5 years old. Also, I appreciate both Quake and UT and unlike fucks like you, I don't spend my time demeaning the "opponent" platform.

Shame that you don't have the skills to utilize and appreciate UTs smorgasbord of combat options.

There are some people who think FPS combat should be more about real-time improvisation than just spam rockets at some teleport.

Well then if you're not talking about utv( gtv for q3). Q3 had the "long step in the right direction" 10 years ago...

If Q3 had any chance of becoming big in todays eSports scene, I would definitely be more into it. It's got many nice features.

[+]-farmer!

oh, wait..

farmer? rofl.

i have horses but i wouldnt really class myself as a farmer :P

hmph. doesn't seem like my extremely good sarcastic Qboys-stab registered at all ;(

seems not... i do have my blonde moments ;)

i guess you didnt see the ":P" ey?

I had my :P-filter on :( I find that smiley offensive

lol

[-]

it's obvious if any fast paced fps is chosen (and there will be one since this guy stated he loves the genre) it will be ut3, and probably in tdm or ctf
(inb4 trolls : I don't really give a shit about ut3 seing the flaws in its gameplay and stuffs)

is there anybody here thinking seriously q4 could have any big lan now ? or warsow ? or whatever game with such small community/success ?

The game play is perfect!! though the engine has it's complications unfortunately, hopefully epic will fix that quickly in some patches, at least the worst bummers

no it's not perfect

:o

Bitching at stinger being powerful is just like saying "I'm not good enough to use any other weapons efficiently"

apart from that, people's stinger aim wont improve much over the next year, but their prediction aim, rocket/flak/combo will improve a lot, and it will balance itself over time.

Rather have it this way than in a year having a horrible unbalanced game.

If you have the weapon skill then in close fight the flak will rip apart a guy with stinger in 2½ seconds no matter how stacked he is.

In midrange the shock combined with combos will overpower the stinger.

Shaft has lock down and can be just as deadly as the stinger in mid/close range.

People should stop blaming a game for being bad and unbalanced if it's indeed just their own flaws that makes the game "unbalanced" for them.

And, apart from that the stinger has a charge time, so it takes half a sec before you start dealing damage, that also makes some difference.

Mind you: I write this from a 1on1/TDM perspective, I have a feeling that the stinger will be a tad powerful, just like hit scan, in vctf and warfare because of big open maps compared to DM/TDM.

I'm amused of this most common answer of guys who don't want to see the stinger nerfed for whatever lousy reason :
"you are not good enough"
what kind of argument is that ? yes, a lousy one.

let me laugh a bit, would you ?

ha

ha

ha

not that I consider myself good or something like that, it's more like :
either a weapon is unbalanced or not has nothing to do with the player's skill
it's the weapon which is unbalanced, not the player.
you get the idea ?
an unbalanced weapon will be unbalanced when used by a newbie, and even more unbalanced when used by a leet skilled

also it's funny how you come with
-at close range X weapon is better than minigun
-at medium range Y weapon is better than minigun
-at long range Z weapon is better than minigun

what you have to understand is that X,Y or Z weapon suck at another given range. minigun is good at ALL ranges.
get it ?

the minigun has no weakness. prove me wrong ?

so as you claim that people should stop bitchin' at a game because they surely arn't good enough at it to discover the delightfull pleasure of unbalanced gameplay, I will SCREAM TO YOUR EARS, very close, THAT FANBOYS SHOULD THINK BEFORE BULLSHITING.
thanks =)

btw : stinger (primary fire ofc) has almost NO charge time.

inb4 shitstorm of dueling dudes who don't get why the minigun is poorly balanced because of the small range maps they are used to.

The stinger DOES have a weakness, that it can be overpowered by some other gun in each range, which just means you have to know when the enemy has the stinger out, and counter his weaponchoice with a better gun for that situation.

I personally find it quite balanced, and take that from a guy who was a shaft whore in ut2k4 and now is a stinger whore, yet I still swap over to flak or rockets or shock in certian situations simply because they're more importal than just the stinger.

On a sidenote: 100% balanced guns =! good gameplay. Often it works better if guns aint equal, and there's some "pwner" gun that you gotta watch out for if the enemy got it, obviously it shouldn't turn into that gun being the only one used.

Now, stinger aint the only thing being used, I'm 100% sure if we could check damage stats after a normal duel, then it wouldn't show that the stinger had dealt much more damage than other main guns such as flak/shock/rocket/sniper.


If there's something to bitch at in terms of weapon damage, then you should focus on the damage the shockcores do =P

oh ok, I'm gonna continu talking with a biased stinger whore, sure
mind I've never said this weapon is the best in any situation compared to any other weapon, that's just bs you added to your weak argumentation.
this weapon simply have no weakness, every other weapon has one
but anyway, I'm like talking to a wall
hf with your lame shitty overpowered unfun weapon, hope for ya you'll win plenty of pro cups and shit I don't give a fuck about like these (can't wait to see high skill dueling@AllZzzzzStinger, just for the laugh of it)

one thing for sure is that this weapon sure ruins vctf and ons (inb4 shit mods, but I know you're not the kind to troll this way)

it seems the "whatever lousy reason" is "I'm good with this, please don't change it"
that's kind of lame, and can only come from competitive people

I'm not arguing for it just because I am decent at it, mind you, I have ping problems many times, playing with not so great ping, for that stinger is not exactly the optimal weapon.

And, regarding duels, the ones I've played and seen, it havn't been anything near "stinger only", not even near how ut2k4 was "shock only".

Btw, if you look at it that way then shock in ut3 has no weakness either. (yes I saw your post on the epic forum, but saying shock has a low rof is a weakness is a flawed argument, as it's not about rof on the weapons, but about damage/sec)

You're not talking to a wall, because then I wouldn't have argued for my opinion but instead just done a normal esr comment like "lol noob" =P

But I suppose you're right that the weapon is not balanced for warfare/vctf, and then ye, your suggestion on making it have a higher spread to make it less powerfull on long distances, that shouldn't change much in tdm/duel.

"that shouldn't change much in tdm/duel"
indeed
anyway minigun has always be a lame weapon, which abusing it often get you being taunted
it's simply unfun and unskilled
also even if I cannot mathematicaly prove you that this weapon was terribly set, even if I bring solid arguments : don't you think the amount of people complaining about it is relevent ?
anyway, you can't neither prove me that this weapon is fine just by saying "i like it" or "you don't have the skill to judge" or bringing flawed arguments I take down in one sentence or two

and indeed shock primary fire is overpowered, it's not like ut2004 wasn't dominated by instant hit weapon and especially this one
but first weapon which totally sucks ass in ut3 is the weapon mark rein prefer and so they made it overpowered to the bone : stinger

I've seen far more unbalanced weapons in competitive games than the Stinger in DM. Q4s LG for instance, and it has a pretty long range too. It is used much the same way the stinger is used in UT.

Same ol' Same ol'.

Noone seems to mind that EVERY SINGLE SPORT THERE IS always has the same guys at the top. For some reason that's unacceptable in video games, 'cause they came in thinking..
"oh, it's a video game, anybody can do that!"
Instead of thinking "Wow, these guys have dedicated a lot of themselves to get where they are, and deserve to be at the top"

That's why the community is so small with us. The players come in and leave because some ass hops in a noob FFA server that should stick to duelling (unless they're shaking off some rust or smthn) and the noobs freak out and go back to Halo or UT or CS:S.

q4 community is small because the game was a pos at release, and all the shits we all know about it since then ; although the game is decent now, it's 3 years too late
warsow community is small because it's an amateur game on a 10+ years old engine without any marketing stuff to promote it

the "we play an elitist game and that's why there is nobody" is more elitists wankers bs than anything else imo, although the "essentials special movements" are stupidly some kind of a secret thing, making them hard to learn and so the game become elitist in a way

also : believing ut is a dumby game where everyone got the same skill after 3 weeks of play is obvious ut haters bs

ok, how about anyone with half a brain and 3 weeks playing is at the peak of skill in UT. Is that more specific?

And it's not coming out of thin air. This is based on my experience against people that have played the UT series for many years, and not being any better than me at all in UT3 already.

Why is that? pray tell.

dunno, you may be the chosen one
but I bet you would get raped by any high skilled players in ut
you know it's the same exact shit in ut : the same guys keep winning, for the same reasons the same guys in quake keep winning
but you can believe whatever you want, I don't really give a fuck about what you think ofc

"ok, how about anyone with half a brain and 3 weeks playing is at the peak of skill in UT. Is that more specific?"

I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but you're FOS.

This is annoying that I have to keep defending this game, but it's petty remarks such as yours which almost requires it.

Since you're so great at beating UT vets, I can't wait to see your tournament wins in the future. Or hell, send me a few demos later on. Hey, it's easy money my friend... 3 weeks. Hell, I've spent that much time taking a shit.

There's two things both sides have to realize:

1. Movement in UT is pretty fucking simple. This is not a good thing. I suppose benefits are due because of this: Larger player base, bigger communities and so on.

2. Despite the handicapping of movement in UT there is still A LOT and I mean A TON of skill to be achieved. Nobody is going to play for 3 weeks and maximize the potential of the game nor their potential of the game. Not even fucking close.

"We have chosen to develop CS Women instead of a new team-played title."

why oh why *sigh*

eswc has always been a spectators event, as opposed to for instance the cpl.

i would much rather watch cod4/etqw than another cs :/

I would much rather watch CS female than CS.

errr, u mean CS Female bikini-models

CS Female alone doesnt guarentee anything

since he is probably attending the event it does actually :/

ahh, good point. I was like "why tf would he care if they were female or not? It's still just CS..."

but yeah, if he's there in person, I guess that helps.

Doesn't mean he'll get any tho.

why? they are not half as good

q3 invite tourney gogo






let me dream ;/

eswc has always been a spectators event, as opposed to for instance the cpl.

just going with the flow :P

haha :)

In Paris or Poitiers + open... that would be really nice. Or near beach at Saint-Tropez.. yeey..

Commander Keen

etqw ffs!

warsow?

That would blow off my mind :D

sizah: u are on the right way imo

i think he was asking what it is *giggle*

lawl, ouch.

I think it was quite obvious they're not gonna choose Q4 anymore...

i've lost all faith for eswc now aswell.. :/

That's stupid. They are still heavily into PC gaming, unlike WCG.

Many people "lost faith in ESWC" when they picked Q4, and gave them plenty of flame for it. Why did you expect them to support a game that (for some reason) has been universally rejected even by quakers themselves?

rofl u stupid.

no u

well q4 is better than nothing :)

also moving to cali was a bad call for my personal taste.

UT3, CS, WC3, maybe StarCraft II (?) is not "nothing" :p All are entertaining eSport platforms.

who said ut3? its not decided yet.

"potentially" then.

all hope is gone for esports so wouldnt keep my hopes up =)

also: i've spectated like 1000000 events of cs and wc3 and i dont find it fun anymore, i was never a RTS fan either so it pretty much comes down to the 1v1 fps .. and since its not even 100% they'll use a "pure fps" there isnt much hope

I agree spectating CS isn't much fun. WC3 is fun in my opinion; surrounds, blocks, 300-400 apm, and of course 1v1 action.

The point was they're both PC games and they require the extra level of skill that comes with mouse / keyboard - based gameplay. Meaning they - at least - "deserve" to be in there.

Spectating football isn't much fun either. Unless you're in a full pub with your mates and your team is playing and you have bet money on the game.

I don't watch CS too much but the ESWC final this year was pure awesomeness. Especially for people that were there at the venue.

Agreed. Watching Q4 and WC3 live at ESWC this year kinda sucked since they were both 2-0 victories.

In Cooller vs Av3k, Av3k started fiddling with his sound or whatever for 5 minutes, and Creo vs ...someone was an upset in my eyes.

Still fun event tho.

i love to watch korean SC. it's really exciting.

wc3 sux. it really does for a spectator.

cs is dull...

q4 , ut3 or warsow, i like them all.

"wc3 sux. it really does for a spectator."

no offense, that's a pretty damn stupid thing to say. You have obviously never been to a live event, nor do you know about WC3s massive scene for live events and replays (particularly in China).

The big replays on war3.replays.net get 50.000 downloads ++ every single day. That's as much as a big football stadium, and football matches don't happen every day.

i watched about 70-80 games. the creeping is boring and it's very hard to follow.

watch sc, you always know what's going on.

I will enjoy SC2 more when it comes out, true. But WC3 has some nice micro moments with surrounds/blocking/nuking etc that SC can't offer.

WC3 is huge, and a lot of people are enjoying it as a spectator sport.

incorrect.

arguments or gtfo :P

eswc has always been a spectators event, as opposed to for instance the cpl.

too bad i cant go this year then!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

why? because they're not picking games based on your own personal taste? sorry to break it to you but the world doesn't revolve around bitter quakers whining away on this website.

i'm still entitled to my own opinion...?

q4q4q4

I dont blame them. Go pick Soldat now

But eswc has always been a spectators event, as opposed to for instance the cpl.

HERE COMES HALO

watch your language.

street fighter 4!

QW plz

ut3 !!!

such a fascinating individual, or?

Im getting tired of watching the same 10 players battle for some amount of money - and its allways the same 2-3 players who gets it.

Teamplay is what we wanna see. But somehow quake is now labeled as a 1on1 game.

I miss the old times with TDM and CTF in quake.

idiot.

the best will win, and be on top all the time, regardless of the game.

go find some shitty luck based crap that'll make your dreams come true.

agree with him on the second part tho :/

*luck* is also needed to make a game worth watching

And Im sorry - I wasnt looking for an argument with an individual who has a smaller braincapacity than an ape.

uggabugga

you are wrong about the luck thing. Totally wrong even

As a competitive player the thing i hate to see the most in games is luck.

I feel shitty when i get lucky
I feel shittier when opponent gets lucky

When spectating seeing luck is just shit

flagruns in CTF needs luck - some would say its ALL luck getting home :)

Luck will be in everything, but at different degrees, until the end of the world :P.
That's probably one of the reasons for which I don't play CS :P.

For competitive gaming, the less the luck is, the better it is :-).

play cs

heh well with q4 allmoast out of the picture for eswc now they can go play with some kiddy stuff ... i recommend ut3 : >

*won't be*

YOU TEA THREE FOUR SHOE HER

Choose Q4 please

Q4 ctf would be even better. I miss the old days of team tourneys as well :/

edit: my prognosis is that they will take Halo 3 as the main game since it's the game to play now in the us.

I would like to see some Duke Nukem Forever matches!

it makes me laugh when i read cod4.. as console game! cod was never a console game on his whole series, always pc-oriented and the biggest and most active community is on pc..

but yet i have to admin that the graphics look pretty good on PS3 :p

i thought cod3 was console only ?;P

only had a couple of tournaments in US, nothing else. and it was released to console only as cod2 was available to pc only i guess. nevertheless, cod4 on console sux ;)

yeah cod3 was made by different pplz

That is a great interview, well done ! :)

*Crosses fingers for ESWC*

IMO The topic slightly skews what was said in the article - it'd be more accurately phrased as "1v1 FPS may not appear at ESWC 2008".

But there is also the option that we do not take a “pure FPS” game as official worldwide discipline but just for an invitational tournament during the Grand Final. The issue for qualifiers is the size of the community and the local interest in national competitions all the year long.

Q4 may only have a small community, but so do QW, CPMA, Warsow, etc.

Correct, the heading was mere flamebait.

im gonna have to give this a darth vader NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Q4 !!!!

=( I want more quake four.

I can feel it....there's a strong indication in the force that the game will be...





...QUAKEWORLD 4on4!!!

Yes, sure grandpa. Now take your pills.

that made me laugh, wonder why though :-)

qw 4on4 ftw!

all these people got rich with e sports, now theyre gonna fuck esports to get even richer. spit in their face if you ever see them. alah is great.

Who ever said that you make tons of money from running eSports events?

anything then the ut3 would totally surprise and make me happy, let's hope it will :D

Weeeeee Crysis 1vs1 ftw !

Well UT3 with some great players is better than nothing... although the game isn't interesting at all for me :-E

yeah pretty much

quake3 plz!

UT99 iCTF please


oh u guyz are not big fans of iCTF, I'm ok with iDM 1vs1 !

Wolfenstein 3D plz!

NintenDogz 1v1 plz.

dunno if dogfighting is illegal in the us tho.

Would love Warsow (CU@ESWC) but seems pretty likely it's gonna be UT3

does he mean that besides an fps tournament (eg UT3) there could be also an invitational tournament for q4?

Quake 4 fucking sucks

Oh god.

So, we could end up with NO tournaments, unless you're invited, but only the absolute best players would get invited.

Fantastic.

*sigh*

l

cant see comments :X

asaas cant see the thread

ut3?

shattering news for...

WTF no comments displayed?

comment for being able to read comments :D

The game is dead move on.

Q3/QZ as the FPS game or just die.

spot on

just posting to see people whine LoOoL

o fgs silly comments

4 comments, ggl = ballin

edit: nm

i wouldn't mind UT3 with toxic, av3k & co. raping random UT players

That wont happen in the first ½ year of UT3, maybe after that when they've adjusted and done their "quake insane prac" then they should catch up...

I doubt quakers will be any good in the early days of ut3, but as times moves on they'll catch up, simply because they prac insane amounts of hours :P

are you stupid or something? why would a top quaker play more than a top unreal tournament player?

Because Q4 isn't gonna make it to ESWC? :>

that makes even less sense.

coz quake is fun, doh

i think he meant "why would they play more UT3 than a UT player?" :P

That's what I was thinking. It would take 20 minutes to get to the top level UT play. (that's what it took me, anyway.)

!?

winz already did that.

What happened to believing in eSports because of Quake?

What happened to "as long as I have a say, Quake will be there" etc? (Paraphrased of course, but Carmac should remember)

yea, i thought of that too. i guess now he is more like munoz now.

q3

gsdfgdfgdfsgdfgdfgdfgdfgdfgbxcvb

im spamming because im fucked off from not being able to see coments

give me some fucking quake zero, please.

:(

please ban this idiot

fuck you go die

117 comments and i see not a single one 0o

0o

was that bug...

:(

solved already :D

comment bump

cfgeahasdrtvtd

sad news

in can c the comments if i post a pointless comment?

daamn.. i can only c page 2 when i post a comment :( anything interesting on page 1?

Two words: Quake III

Tree, you're so sexy sometimes.

But seriously, fuck this 'Invitational Bullshit". Give other players a chance to get better, maybe get higher up as a player, compete and win. Sure, have your little invitational games, but still have regionals for other players.

lets hope that the "different FPS" will be ut3, tough i enjoy watching Q4 duel

ofcourse it wont...ut3 will rightly take its place

Fix this shit already, im sick of posting to read page2

change your settings to all comments on the same page

hi

suprised he said it even has a chance

Page2

bump

/me bumps Nicky

/me falls off chair

aww, did you hurt yourself there?

i have no idea im still unconscious

Ah great, then everything is back to normal.

god forbid it would actually knock some sense into me

No I didn't forbid that, knocking some sense into the female mind would be useful, at least then we would start understanding them seen from a logical viewpoint, rather from a completely random one.

now you know that would NEVER work x

Most likely not, females are just out of reach to be fixed =(

beyond all hope

OK thanks a lot, you just made me lose all hope in women, I think I'll just turn gay then.

hehe :D

give comments!

sigh, no more toxjq demos :/

wsw :)

Whatever games ESWC may pick, I still think it's a BAD decision moving to the USA.

Roll on Q0...

Good news, I heard it's going to be q4 for sure now.

LIES!!!

1 Judge, 1 cup.

Ew.

yeah, but it sounded good. The lie, not the 1 me 1 cup idea. ffs.

no q4 :(...i hate eswc now...:(

me hopes wsw or q4

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


loosers!!!!! WHAT IS ut3 ???? ist just a game for school-boys who want to play with HIGHT grafik. ist not a discipline for a tornament like ESWC. for small school events beetween 4 adn 6 klasses... only QUAKE4. its the game for PRO-gamers.

if they will prefer UT3 - we all will be know - epic or nvidia(for best sels) gives them more money. its try... its not for us - it just for money.


we all will be hate eswc... and we will not going on preliminaries.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

not even with proper grammar?

That was my point ;)

Hopefully UT3 will get the pick :)

Have fun playing Warsow guys.

straight up ut3 is mad wack. even if the maps are baller as fuck, its movement is horrific

ut3 is gonna be in the special olympics

just bring quake3 back and we can finally rejoice innit? :)

bring back super mario kart!!!!

does this work?

Apparently it does...

The choice of the fast FPS game is a real issue for us.

We cannot imagine eswc without fast FPS, for all the reasons you know: the hardliner and seminal gender for esport, the champion's fascinating profiles, the obvious skill's lessons when you watch it, the immediate understanding of the stakes during a match...

But it's a shame to select a game, deploy qualifiers, invest prizes and having at the end almost nobody during the qualifiers.
That is why we just think about:
- Different system, like back in 2003 or 2004 for q3 invitational tournaments
- Different titles that could increase the number of players and renew the challenge (may be?)

Then the candidate list is very open: Crysis, FEAR, Halo 3, Quake 3, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, Warsow…

We all have our personal opinion. We talk about this everyday at the office – it is a running subject that finishes sometimes in clash. If I made that answer in the itv it’s because we need your arguments and analysis.

If you want to have the atmosphere you had at ESWC, Q4 2006 (I was there, travelling from Norway), it won't help to pick new "wannabe" FPSes like Crysis/Fear/Halo3.

If the fast FPS genre makes any sense, in my opinion, it is because of the experienced fans who know just when to say "oooh!" "ahhh!" "NICE" and applaud, and who really care about the players. And care enough to travel from Norway. ;)

Not some console kids who just come in to see some fancy gfx, pick their nose and leave to play Nintendo DS in the booths.

The most solid platforms from this point of view is imo Q3, War§ow - and of course UT3. I dropped Q4 from my list, as it stayed alive by being the "latest fast FPS". A status it will now lose to UT3. If you want to pick an "old" game, Q3 or War§ow are better.

My biased opinion; UT3 is a very fun game to watch. It has built in announcements like "killing spree", "rampage" etc which also gets an "uneducated" crowd excited. The competitive enthusiasm around it is growing fast.

good luck with ESWC 08 in any case!
Hope it will be possible to follow, even for those who don't want to travel that far.

all games shown to the public will (probably) be shoutcasted so it would be obsolete to have an ingame announcer since there are irl commentators who notice the same.
I'd go for q4 or ut3 though...
q3 it would be insanely hard to select players, do you go for the legends or for the current top for instance.
Warsow will be... dunno much about the game tbh, except that spectators won't understand players jumping off of 18 different walls (imo), simply because I don't understand it either :)
ut2k4 is just ut3, but with the old levels and with a bit different movement, and it looks a bit less etc.
Crysis and Fear aren't fast paced and they aren't 1v1.

Yep :) Well, War§ow is kinda interesting as an experiment, plus being a free game, "low-specced" enough to work on asian computers, it could grow fast once it got its first big championship.

I think it's easier to get hardware sponsors for UT3 though, and to noones surprise I really like the UT platform :p

Before I started playing Q4, I played lots of UT2k4. In comparison to Quake, UT 1on1 (all of them) lacks simply depth in certain points (armor/health system for example) in my opinion. The lack of a movement which allows you to gain speed, makes the gameplay slower and more defensive -> more boring to watch.
The same goes for UT3, just watch the QuadV VODs of that Esl cup. I'm not saying UT is a bad game, but at least 1v1 is very boring to watch. UT TDM was always much more entertaining, simply because there is more action.

Crysis, Fear, Halo3 can hardly be called FPS, I wouldnt use any of them in a serious tournament. Rather focus on CS / WC3 before using them.

Personally, I hope that ESWC will use Q0, or at least Q4 or Q3 as an invitational tournament.
Warsow doesnt have more players than them and is not that prestigious.
Last considerable option for me would be UT3, at least you can call it a FPS and its playersbase will most likely be bigger than Quakes/Warsows. To make it short:

Q0 > Q4 or Q3 > Warsow > UT3 > nothing

I agree with what some of what you've said, but I don't agree with the invitational system (Although, I don't know EXACTLY how it works). I think right now, for people wanting to duel, it's extremely hard to get higher up in the ranks. If tournaments just start doing invitational events, where they invite the top 16 players, constantly, then what about the other people? What about the other players, who might cause some upsets? What about the players who want to get up in the ranks?

I think everyone just needs a fair and equal chance. Sure, I understand that if not a lot of people show up to a regional, there's no point in doing it. But, part of that reason would be a game. You might have 20 people show up to a UT3 regional, 17 people (lol) for a Quake 4 regional, and maybe 50+ for a Quake 3. My speculations could be wrong, but you get the idea.

Hmm.. they had to choke the recent ESL UT3 tourney at 512 players, so I'd expect the competitive enthusiasm around UT3 is most probably bigger than Q3 atm.

The q3 invite tourneys were probably the most interesting and fun to spectate tourneys the eswc ever had. Also, q3 is in the process of beeing rereleased in an updated and free form (called quake zero). A free game will automaticly get played or at least tried by a lot of ppl (just look at enemy territory, it had a huge playerbase, and still has) which would increase the interest in such a tourney even more.

And you yourself once said that a game does not have to have a big player base for people to understand and enjoy watching the high skill they get served (Or something like that ;-).

Id vote for Quake3 or QuakeZero. (invite tourney)

when Quake Zero comes out it could very well be the Trackmania Nations of the FPS genre (being free, easy to learn with all the tutorials and lots of features for competitive play)

read http://www.gameriot.com/news/4135/New-Quake-Games-and-More/ to see what i'm talking about

until then i'd say Quake3, could get players warmed up again for when Quake Zero comes out

UT3 till Quakezero comes out. Yes Q3 is better, but it also died along time ago.

make it tdm then in ut3, dueling in it will suck sucks

100% agreed.

VQ3 is boring and so passé.. i'm hoping QuakeZero will have more exciting maps and a few more twists to its gameplay. also i hope it will pump some new talent into the game..

seriously? who the hell wants to see the same 20 Q3 players over and over again? Jibo +back-ing on ztn/nodm13 isn't my eSports ideal..

UT people should have their cut too, the game may not be spectacular or tournament ready, but at least it's something new both in style and player pool.

Sir, you once told us your thoughts of a game of Quake, I will quote your words:
"No game can match Quake for the spectacular emotional intensity that it provokes. No other game, excepted maybe Starcraft, allows the gamer to transcend himself so much when he begins to get the hang of it. No other game so justly awards the title of athlete to the gamer who masters it.

Quake is a world, it’s a language. Playing “Quake” is a digital way of breathing. I believe in Electronic Sports because of Quake. That is my personal opinion, but it has the good fortune to be shared by all the Ligarena team. So, as long as Quake is not replaced or we are forbidden to use it, Quake will be in the ESWC."

And we all love you for that and the previous awesome events of Quake 3. No other game or event has made me stay connected with a 56k analog modem to the internet at the most expensive rates in the world trying to get a glimpse of the action and it was all worth it and I am sure for many others like myself.

Bring back that enjoyment and excitement we all shared not so long ago, bring back Quake(3).

i would love to see quake 3; eswc 2005 was the best event i ever followed, the exsitment and skill was just breath taking.
Hope u make the right choise. GL

Well, this has a pretty obvious answer, and that is Q3. And by reading past interviews of yours, I know you think that too.

Has been discused a million times, but then again: Q3 + CPMA makes the best, the most solid platform for 1v1 you'll EVER find. It has everything that you'll need to play at a high competitive level(list is too huge, check CPMA changelog), and it still looks awesome with everything turned up, which is always good for your average joe viewer (or player).

It has an unique, timeless style in everything: models, textures, maps, etc. It has that "esports-competition-arena" feel, without looking way too old for a mainstream audience (QW), or getting extremly annoying by flooding a game with a bunch of ideas to make it look more innovative or alternative (wsw), lossing the power or "punchyness" that a proper DM game needs.

For the generation that lived DM when it was on its top, when Q3 was everywhere, nowadays, esports for us is a total joke. We don't care, can't care anymore about those HALO3 MILLION DOLLAR TOURNAMENTS, etc. Nothing beats the Q3 era, people loved it. I still remember ESWC 2003 finals, Cooller vs Zero4, on "that map" played millions of times, pro-q3dm6. It was total madness at GTV when Cooller did the comeback frag, again, on that same map played millions of times. Why? because people really loved the game, including the players competing at the event. What FPS has matched Q3 after all those years? Q4? Are you serious? The atmosphere was by far not the same anymore (even Carmac said that on a GGL article). It was like seeing/playing a bad, uninspired Q3 copycat.

That generation has been left without anything to look for. Q4, has been obviously a fiasco, doesn't need more argumentation. UT3? It's just a game thought to be played on consoles. Developers at Epic nowaday doesn't give a shit about anything but graphics. Competitive features have been totally forgoten. Just compare UT99 menu to UT3's one. The game is just something like Q4 was: using an already famous and stablished franchise to make money out of it, while using your latest engine to sell that technology to other companies. Yeah, lots of money made thanks to casual gamers, and maybe you'll get the obligatory "pro gamers" that will play the latest game even if they know it sucks donkey balls, without enjoying the game at all, plus a couple of blind fanboy wannabes that will play anything that uses "Quake" or "UT" on the game's title.

Again, the argument "but Quake 3 wasn't perfect out of the box, give X (lets say, UT3) a time!", is, and must be totally erradicated. Q3 was released on 1999, internet wasn't a mainstream thing. If developers today are releasing games out of the box with the same "competitive features" (or even LESS) than a game released 8 years, EIGHT, ago, someone is simply NOT CARING to give support to the people that want their games to be played on a competitive environment. What im trying to say in this point is that the history repeats itself with every single "this is the next big thing" release. EVERY single time a FPS game that is supossed to be the competitive DM scene saviour is released, turns to be a complete failure at the MP deparment. You ALWAYS have to wait for your "arQon" to come and make a mod that adds (and thats a shitload of stuff) everything that those millionaire game developers "forgot" to add to make the game actually useful when played online. Instead, they where implementing poligonal models of crabs with bumpmaped 2048x1536 textures that at the same time projects realtime soft-shadows (thats all im going to talk about considering Crysis or anything similar to be played at a competitive level).

Everytime a game that lacks all of those "must have features" is selected as the FPS game tournament for a big event, that "lets continue to not care about anything but graphics and single player" actitude is being supported since they know their games have a 100% secured spot on those events because their technology makes "insert hardware brands here" and the rest of sponsors happy. But then again, back to Q3 and why it should be used when aware of this situation:

Q3 has an already stablished mod, that has put the game near a perfection status, CPMA. This, ofcourse, has been acomplished after YEARS of effort done for 0 money. And after years, the mod is still active and being developed. Now, how much it will take to have your "next big thing that sucks out of the box" on such a perfect, solid state?, yes, more years of waste of time waiting for a thing that is already there. Why develop from scracth new mods for new games that, btw, even if they are technologically superior regarding graphics, are A LOT less solid and responsive than the Q3 engine? It doesn't make any sense, and you can't fix an engine, that by default, sucks. For more details on this listen to Carmack's opinion on nowadays engines here: www.quakezero.com

And, last, but not least (this is actually the key factor): Quake Zero.
Q3 is basically going to be re-released again for free, so you can expect people from everywhere to try what this is all about. This means selecting Q3 is a decision with future. And you can always replace Q3 with QZ if it gets released before ESWC, since noone will whine about it. In fact, because of QZ, is a now or never situation. We all know the final objective of esports is acomplishing something similar to Starcraft in Korea. I know this sounds like an utopy, but you have to aim high to evolve.

So, you have to analyze, what made Starcraft so popular on Korea? Its pretty simple: The game requires skill, allows players to take endless decisions thanks to its deep gameplay, people understands the game and they love it. The difference is that in Korea, noone is considered a "hardcore" gamer, since that is the standard. Here, if you know all the items on ztn, know how to time them, know how to strafejump, etc etc, you are considered "a hardcore gamer".

How to solve that? First, by selecting the best game on its genre and sticking with it. The idea of mindlessly changing the game every year hoping that the new game will be an unpredicted success and it will be played massively will never work. You have to let the game develop an history of matches, and epic confrotrations will happen to be remembered. Eventually, fascinating individuals will start to shine, "the boxers of Quake". Again, this only can happen if organizations stick with the same game.

Starcraft was just another game, until people started to understand the potential the game had. Educating the audiences is the only way. And well executed advertising can make people get interested enought to go and look for deeper info about the game. Obviously, the "easiest" and more effective way is TV. I know TV ads cost a lot of money, but maybe its worth it at the long run, and nothing like that has been done before.
Im sure if you said you can win "insert desirable amount of money" by playing QZ you'll have instantly ALL kind of gamers, (PC or console, any age), plus curious people checking out the Quake Zero site. When they read the game is free, they'll play it too.

Ask yourself, why there is people still playing the same game after 8 years? That game must have "something" isn't it? And of course, Q3 has that.
Q3, is capable of building a pasion about it just like SC does in Korea, but this is only possible if the game is fully understood by players and audiencies. The potential to make it happen is there, it just still hasn't been presented to the mainstream.

But back to the present (and to finnish this unexpected huge writing), the first step of all of that is betting for the best game, and at the FPS department, Q3 is still the best. After that, there is QZ, that may become something even bigger than imagined, like Carmack said on that video.

You are attacked by giant wall of text for -50 dps.

Stop trying to flame. One is born with that hability, you just lack it.

Wasn't a flame really. Just an observation. I want to thank you for proving with your giant text of death that Q3 stopped being about fun competition a long time ago.

If thats your conclusion of my text, you are doing something wrong. Anyway, I don't expect anything better from someone who is actually able to enjoy a game like UT3.

there we go :) keep up the arrogance and keep proving my point..

That's not my conclusion from reading your text (who is going to read all that anyway?), that's my conclusion from looking at the size of your post.

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that you are taking Q3 (which is just a game among other games) way too seriously.

If we want to archieve something like this outside Korea someday, first, we have to take things a bit more seriously than just going to a place and play some lame ass random game. Q3 is the equivalent to SC if we are talking about fast paced FPS. But anyway, I can predict your next 20 responses about how biased my opinion is because im a QFanboy etc etc. Go and just enjoy your UT3, but not try to say it is a better alternative than Q3, because we know thats just WRONG.

Before you reply saying how imposible is to make a game released 7 years ago that popular, please, read again my "long text" and actually try to understand it.

Things like *that* are happening in China too, with WC3. The current LAN "hits" in Asia are DoTA and WoW. You see.. these events aren't based in "game superiority", but in a LAN-culture that doesn't exist in Europe at all. To compare tiny Q3 to giant StarCraft is just funny.

Yes, Q3 was the tourney FPS of choice for a while. You, and many others, obviously thought this meant Q3 had superiority over other FPSes. But it was just the names "Quake" and "ID" that gave it the prizemoney. Those names aren't big anymore.

ESWC are considering Halo 3. Do you honestly think they share your childish "superior" view of what is a good game and what is not?

And please, take a step back and think. Do you honestly believe I will read a long fanatical manifest by a guy who repeatedly insists that other peoples preference of games (including mine) is inferior?

Please step back and read again what I wrote. If you can't differenciate when someone is flaming or talking seriously, is going to be hard for you to understand anything. Basically, the idea is betting on quality above everything else. HALO3 is far from Q3 in everything, if you are saying HALO3 is as good as Q3 to stablish a standard 1v1 platform, you just should quit. (seriously).

No, Halo3 sucks rotten chinese eggs, what I was saying was..

This is where ESWC is:
"We like games. Now let's see.. UT3? Q3? Q4? Halo3? F.E.A.R... etc"

This is where you are:
"Q3!!!! and everything else is absolute trash"

And isn't true that Q3+CPMA is above all of those alternatives if we are talking about a solid, serious platform for 1v1? Appart from all the features that CPMA implemented after years of effort, isn't better to select a game where people can make proper trainings thanks to the BEST (by far) netcode, and thanks to the fact that you can bring your mates at home to play LAN because your second computer is old, but still able to run Q3 at max fps? How many of you have got two computers on the same room able to run Q4, UT3, etc, without any problem? Not everyone has the time to get all your stuff (PC+monitor+etc) packed into a car, drive to your mate's house, get everything set up etc etc (we all know how annoying is that compared to just calling your mate and get instantly playing on your second computer). Think about those things, useful things.

If we're talking pro tournaments (and we are), then I don't think it matters to "most people" how convenient it is to use Q3+CPMA, no. The pros are there to make money off playing games.

I think the most important factors for a competitive FPS title is:
- sponsorship chances
- presentation (in my opinion excluding team games)
- how easy it is to "get into" a game for a new viewer
- the range of skills should be diverse enough that you will keep discovering new things for every game you watch (in my opinion excluding console FPSes)

And of course it's the question of extreme configs (picmip and UT's LODbias), but ESWC have solved this splendidly by having a main "presentation" monitor and two player monitors where you can see exacly what the players see.

Edit:
my point being, as I wrote in my first post, both Q3 and UT3 are valid candidates. Although UT3 will be easier to find hardware sponsors for.

????
not that i want to take part in a personal flamewar.
but as i see it, YOU started with your reply #258 to show some sort of arrogance and proving a point.

your first reply can be seen both as a flame or as a joke if someone stays above and is gentle to your favor, but your 2nd is really showing where your intentions are.


besides that you dont seem to know too many true quakeplayers:
"I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that you are taking Q3 (which is just a game among other games) way too seriously."
be sure he is not the only one willing to support the game in a very serious manner. thats one of the differences to other comunities, quakeplayers in the end care much and maybe more than other fps fans about the game and the future of competitive gaming.
"just a game among other" -> tell that people who know nothing about fps deathmatch at all. here is the wrong place to do so. tbh i think you know the history of deathmatch gaming, so no need to argue any further

q3 (q0 if its better than q3 with cpma or osp) is my choice

"but as i see it, YOU started with your reply #258 to show some sort of arrogance and proving a point. "

If you have read "nemecel"'s other posts, you would know that he is a fanatic that repeatedly tells fans of other games to shut up simply because they are fans of other games. And his whole long post to ESWC, is set in this same, demanding tone.

"be sure he is not the only one willing to support the game in a very serious manner."

this is part of your problem as a community (Q3). You are too rigid for the fun-based activity that is gaming. We saw what happened to Q4. Universally ignored because Q3ers felt it was below their dignity to play a slightly altered game.

Fans of other games love their games too. They know all the little secrets and aspects of it. But the attachment is based in fun. For Q3ers, it's based on a false feeling of superiority. Get off your high horse already.

Tournaments like ESWC, haggling with sponsors to survive, are dependant on flexibility, to have at least some freedom in their choice of games. So what kind of fans do you think they prefer? Fanatics or enthusiasts?

In my own post, I even suggested Q3 as an alternative. My message was: rather a PC fps than something on a console. Do Q3ers return the favor? Yeah, right... :P This is why your gaming platform has gone from a fun-based gaming hit to a closed "cult".

You are definitely not getting the point. Whenever I type a one line message like "Q3 or just die fags" is just to flame a bit in this very old messageboard. It seems in the old times people didn't take flames so seriously one is called a "fanatic". I respect whatever people want to play, while I still think (and im obviously not the only one) the competitive FPS scene has went down and down since Q3 started to get ignored by events like WCG. Maybe the prizemoney has been raised in some of those "big events", but it wasn't as exciting, as FUN anymore, like it used to be with Q3.

this is part of your problem as a community (Q3). You are too rigid for the fun-based activity that is gaming. We saw what happened to Q4. Universally ignored because Q3ers felt it was below their dignity to play a slightly altered game.

This is just ridiculous. If at this point you still don't know the OBVIOUS reason why Q4 got ignored by the Q3 community (and by more people not vinculed to the Q3 community), you are missing something. What the hell is that dignity shit? We just ignored Q4 because it sucked out of the box. Now, WHY I should play an inferior game (yes, inferior, because in this case, its how it was, as harsh as this word can sound to you) when I already have a 100% polished game that still is fun to play? (Q3+CPMA) Why I should deal with what it was an unplayable piece of boring crap software on a near alpha status? Why I have to wait again years for the same people to make this doomed-to-be-boring game playable? I payed for the game, so I expected what Willits said: "This is going to be the best Quake of the series". Are you fucking kidding me? And its not even about Tim Willits lies, is just logical evolution. Q4 should be better than Q3, OUT OF THE BOX. It obiously wasn't and still today is far from being a decent successor. The game is just boring, it failed, get over it. And I accept it, because im not a blind id software fanboy, like some people are about Epic, talking wonders about UT3 when is just an equivalent of Q4 in terms of sucking.

About "You are too rigid for the fun-based activity that is gaming". I guess you are not serious. How in the world someone is playing the same game after 8 years of its release for zero money? Yes, because its fun, ffs.

"Whenever I type a one line message like "Q3 or just die fags" is just to flame a bit in this very old messageboard."

Heh, I doubt that was "just to flame". That's basically what you typed in your post to ESWC too.

"Well, this has a pretty obvious answer, and that is Q3."
"..And by reading past interviews of yours, I know you think that too."
"UT3? It's just a game thought to be played on consoles."
"Q3 has an already stablished mod, that has put the game near a perfection status"
"Q4, has been obviously a fiasco, doesn't need more argumentation."
etc etc..

Btw: The Q4-comment might sound a little stupid to an ESWC guy when ESWC has had so many good times with Q4.

they had good times with q4?

like nobody showing up at the qualifiers ? ;)

More like a hall full of people chanting at ESWC 06 and it sounded like a football match :p

was the same for every game tho...

were you there? :P

I'll admit that frenchman Winz playing in the finals "might" have had something to do with the mood, but the Q4 finals were in any case without a doubt the loudest event that day.

i was there 2006 and 2007, and cs in 2007 was omfg, q4 was rather boring looking at the crowd.

agreed, Av3k playing with his headphones and coming back to crush Cooller in a boring 2-0.. (should've been BO5). It was pretty anticlimactic... btw don't make arguments for CS ffs :p

Its about the game. Q4 is just not as nice to watch as Q3 was.

If we're just going to spout subjective opinions: I honestly believe UT is a better platform to watch than Q3, and I've had more fun watching Q4 than I've had watching Q3 too.

But that won't really get us anywhere.

i disagree.
seeing armor timers and movement keys are the small things that makes spectators like q4. it made my girlfriend actually stop and look at the screen for a few seconds (for once) when i had a stream going. if we could get updated graphics (hi quakeworld) and some armor timer thingys for spectators q3 could keep up with q4.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8648/q3q4dm67ct.jpg <- (image is not working anymore. If anyone has it reupload it plz. Is the one comparing Q3/Q4 on dm6).

that's your taste.

you have to look at the wider view, what does average joe want to see?

look, i think its cool you keep up the fight for q3 and all but i think its hopeless and you won't achieve anything with it more than flaming other on this site.

and by the way that url didnt work for me

Its not taste. Q4 has a pallete colour inspired in brown-green shit.

again, your taste. you can't see what's best for all.. you just see whats best for you. and thats where your logic fails

Well, I respect you if you like brown-green shit looking games with gay looking marine models.

again, your taste. you're clearly missing the point mate. the q4 engiene is more advanced than the q3 one. also: i'm not sure where you get the brown-green thingy from, most maps i've seen is black/green or black/blue

Is technologically more advanced, but fails at being useful. Q3 is more smooth and less laggy thanks to CPMA's netcode (and those are not my taste, but facts).

doesnt matter at big tournaments if its laggy with high ping or not, and then again looks is your personal taste. with the right setup (which they can afford with the right sponsors) its smooth.

Its not as smooth as Q3, never will be. D3 engine is just not as good for MP.

Some hints on "usefulness":

Appart from all the features that CPMA implemented after years of effort, isn't better to select a game where people can make proper trainings thanks to the BEST (by far) netcode, and thanks to the fact that you can bring your mates at home to play LAN because your second computer is old, but still able to run Q3 at max fps? How many of you have got two computers on the same room able to run Q4, UT3, etc, without any problem? Not everyone has the time to get all your stuff (PC+monitor+etc) packed into a car, drive to your mate's house, get everything set up etc etc (we all know how annoying is that compared to just calling your mate and get instantly playing on your second computer). Think about those things, useful things.

d3 engiene is smooth on lan with good computers.

and no, pro players practise at boot camps so they dont need crazy netcode.

So what? Lets make a game playable only for the 6 people that is payed to go arround the world playing at LANs? How about the non pro players? What makes a fanbase, you know?.

If we want people to attend to tournaments, they'll need to train at LAN, even if you have the best netcode in the world (unless you are Swede and you have 5 ping). And, if you read again my previous post, you'll see how much of a problem is to carry your computer everywhere to just train, when you can have two computers in the same room able to run Q3 at 125 fps. And anyway, not everyone has near-friends that are decently skilled at Quake, so here's when CPMA netcode comes handy.

so you honestly think big organisations pick games according to masses?

PAINKILLER HELLO
QUAKE4 HELLO

once again you have the wrong perspective. if you want qz or q3 to be on a big tourney they need sick graphics and easy to understand gameplay that average joe can spectate and understand. at least if we're talking big money tournaments (which have big money because of sponsors..)

CS 1.6 HELLO
STARCRAFT HELLO

Those games have been picked for years without being changed because of theirs awesome next gen graphics, yeah.

Is Q3 gameplay much harder to understand than HALO gameplay, or than GOW gameplay? Is the same fucking thing, ffs.

Guy 1 has to kill Guy 2 to win in a limited amout of time. The one that has more kills or "frags" when the limited amount of time is over (15 minutes), WINS. Is it REALLY that hard to understand? Obviously those are the basics, Q3 is much deeper than HALO or GOW, but you get the idea, and the basic idea is easily understood by anyone.

And obviously, what makes Q3 superior and a candidate to be a esports standard (QZ) is thanks to his deep gameplay, and only when you understand all of its tricks and details (strafejumping, timing, tactics on different maps, large etc) you really start to enjoy the game, and to understand why there is still people playing the same game for 8 years. And If your ideals are "lets deal with the audience like if they where completly retarded", esports will never evolve from being some kind of graphic cards and cpu showouts/console titles advertisment. If we keep dealing with SC or CS success as "thats just not comparable" we will be the same people playing Quake forever. If you are able to understand that sentence, you'll stop to counterargument me with "but esports don't work that way". Its not my fault esports has set the DM community in a position where 1v1 FPS games are selected has "tests" to try hardware, advertising, or whatever the fuck they want. Everything but real core deep gameplay quality. So, that why QZ its a one or never opportunitty to bring real quality 1v1 to the mainstream, thanks to QZ's easy propagation (you have only to go to a website and you are playing the best fast paced 1v1 game, for free).

Again, the potential is already here, it just hasn't been presented to the mainstream.

ok mate, starcraft and cs 1.6 has millions of people playing it. quake hasnt, so we have to bring something else.

Read my post again, I honestly think you can do better than that.

what im saying here is you're on the wrong path what tournaments want, you're so caved in on the idea that gameplay > all.
yeah its true for the players BUT NOT FOR THE ORGANISERS. please read what im typing. its money money money that matters.

You can't differenciate a flame from a serious statement, thats your problem. Appart from that, I talk in such a harsh way because the current state of competitive FPS is so bad that it forces me to do it that way. Q3 times where better, including ESWC Q4 tournaments. I've been at both, and again, Carmac, someone comming from UT, said in an official GGL article (not some random comments on a messageboard) how Q4 was not able to match Q3's atmosphere on past ESWCs, even if they allowed more people to spectate thanks to that nice looking stadium thing they did. Sad that the game was not in par with that scenario.

I think we both agree competitive FPSing is in a shit state atm.

But I am focusing on the real threat - that in a few years, when you ask someone if they want to play some FPS, they say "sure! Bring your gamepad over, and we can splitscreen on my 50" plasma".

In stead, you are insisting on getting your exact version of PC FPSing to the masses, a game which is already small, and not exactly recruiting new players.

Console FPSers are gathering around Halo, because that's more or less all they have. PC gamers are stubbornly each clinging to their own little gaming island, and Q3ers in particular.

So what? Not users fault that they haven't released anything worth a Q3 replacement. If we aim for a mainstream esports, we want that the winners can be called "professionals" without any shame, and this depends ONLY about what game is being played. Korea is real esports, why? Not because they pull huge nationally televised shows with totally professional looking stages etc, but because the game they play, SC, allows for the players to be called professionals without any shame, because it is known that SC is all quality regarding gameplay, allows for endless tactics and has a learning curve that ONLY the people that puts really serious effort get on top. If esports finally losses the battle of dignity vs mainstream posserism, console FPS's like HALO3 will be televised and whatever you want, but still, that will never be esports, since they are lightyears of being a "boxer" or a "cooller", because the game they play, simply doesn't allow such deepness in skill development. (and lets not talk about how fucking boring it will be to spect for people that play real games like SC or Q3).

1) you kinda missed my point that console FPSing is eating up everything at the moment, doesn't really matter what your "theories" are and how much you think you are right.

2) SC has tons of flaws, and yes, I have played RTSing on a professional level, so I know what I'm talking about. It is nowhere near "the perfect RTS".

3) comparing SC to Q3 is like comparing the earth to the sun. They're both round right?

4) "dignity", "proper games", "blabla" = here you show your grandiose side again, and basically it fails. You are so stubborn that the coming onset of console gaming is going to rape you hard and long. You are going to get furious over people's ignorance, get more and more angry and bitter.

The counter against consolegaming is getting less picky and standing together around common platforms. You are obviously not ready to unite PC gaming (too bad, really). Luckily for me, UT3 is both console and PC, so it still has one foot in the future.

Btw, maybe end this discussion? it was fun while it lasted, but I think I can get more sense out of talking to a wall.

As I said, I don't give a flying fuck if gaming finally fails and console FPS joke games are what is televised, etc. To me, real esports still will be games like Q3 or SC. I will just move on if that happens. Not my fault the gaming industry is going more and more about the graphics and less about gameplay.

Again, go and enjoy that consolized super exciting orthopedic fighting game called UT3 if that makes you happy.

tbh i guess you dont know how many quakeplayers have built up their knowledge and experience through many years and alot of playtime.

most quakers i have met know much about gaming in general
many have played pc, consoles and arcade since decades !
many are playing 1 or 2 competitive games since 5, 8 or more years
quakeplayers know in general much if not the most about pro gaminghardware on pcs
1/3 or 1/2 of the quakeplayers are not only part of the quakecomunity but also other gamingcomunities and supporting them
out of all players i know the quakecomunity has the biggest number of serious and most experienced people when it comes to fast fps gaming (tournaments, sites, engines, mods...)
(doom)quake was one of the first highly competitive lan and internet. many have started with wolf3d in singleplayer
quakers have written huge and detailed helps for newbies and show big support with vids and chat for new players
...

its a result of comparison and how we see future when many quakers write their opinion.
tbh i think you give not enough credit to quakers, you think its about keeping the head high and ego. quite the opposite

to talk of the favor : yes i recognise it, and i say ut2k4/ut3,wsw ...are good fps games too for example and i know really good console titles too who would be or are good choices in tourneys, but i think q3 should be a maingame for most tournaments because of reasons who are obvious to people who have much experience. not only because selfishness and fancracyness

what eswc or cpl or other tournaments want : they can expect qualified statements and decicions from quakers, quakepeople will not go for unsatisfying solutions that will last only for 1 year.
we make partners if they show the needed respect to the game and the players, we have showed respect and will show it again.
and i promote the concept to buy products of the sponsors and tournaments who have supported quake, especially q3

and with that i mean cpl or other tournament organisers too, and if they can see their "wrong" decicsions of the past and are presenting new solutions.
dunno, quakers have presented a nice history so far in the game and in public if you ask me. maybe watch some famous demos, read some interviews or search through some sites if you dont believe

o look, a story within the comments, how interesting

Youre our last quake hero as an organization exec, im sure you will chose wisely.

I can see plenty of people replied to you, probably arguing why you should pick THEIR game.

Anyway, I think you should remove ut2k4 from the list, UT3's gameplay is just better and I'm sure there's money in it for you picking UT3 rather than 2k4.

I hope though that you'll stay true to the fast paced fps games, and go for a PC game, preferably something along the lines of UT3, warsow of quake

btw I see you got nvidia as sponsor again, afaik ut3 is a nvidia "the way it's meant to be played" game =P so maybe that can bring forward something extra for you. I hope so anyway as I'd love to see UT back with eswc again, as it's supposed to be.

edit: btw, I think what you should do, is simply put up a vote on your webpage, let the players and spectators decide, or well, see what people think, that would maybe make your decision somewhat easier, atleast it could help eliminate some of the games on your list I'm sure.

"Then the candidate list is very open: Crysis, FEAR, Halo 3, Quake 3, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, Warsow…"

If we're looking for the most skillful games, throw Crysis/FEAR/Halo 3 out of the window.

This leaves us with Q3/Q4/UT3/UT2k4/Warsow

I don't see any sense in picking ut2k4 since it's old and wasn't very popular for a competitive esport platform.

Warsow imo is just tons of jumping skills without enough emphasis on the other elements of deathmatch.

The realistic options imo are Q3/Q4/UT3

I personally don't find q3 to be very exciting, but it would draw the players and spectators.

I am biased and prefer q4 since it's the more recent 'pro' game, and we won't have to worry about scheduling conflicts with WSVG making the turnout half of what it could be.

UT3 is too new and needs a LOT of work before it should be considered.

ugh....i didn't expect it to.......

i'd vote for q3 for sure

well ding dang yall

quake 3 has famous topplayers, a stable comunity and a good gamesystem
ewsc with q3 was always very entertaining

q3 retired players comp

q3 ftw
toughest competitions, most skilled fps players, and the number of skilled competitors playing q3 will be 2 times bigger than if you will choose q4 instead
you could choose for competition the maps used for babbage cpl 2000, or new ones

It seems to me that there will be q4 at next eswc :
http://www.ipowergames.fr/page/team
There is a q4 section and this team plan to be at next eswc. And since their manager works for Games-services, i don't understand why they would pick a q4 section if it won't be at eswc :|

quake 3 forever <3

DAIKATANA!!