Ban Ron Bronson . he won't play it anyways!

Tldr; zar whiiiinnnes cause bad Elder at it he is are be being been'd!

<3

I think Elder is a great map. It is fun to watch and play. don't listen to these timefraggers without movement skills.

Cheers to you Sync, never thought i'd say or write that.

Nice try Sync

Nah bruh. That was me (icvx). Yall trippin cuz u can't tentacle and strafe or rocket to red.

What a difference in ip range for being the same guy...

Who has the key to his heart?

QUAKECON 2016 Update: Map "Elder" replaced with "Space Camp" due to popular demand

Actually, could be better than dm6.

I'd prefer this, elder is awful and shouldn't be in Qcon. why are they insistent on having it in the pool?

Designed by Adam 'SyncError' Pyle for Duel, Elder is also available for small FFA and 2v2 TDM matches.

2v2 TDM matches

inb4 quakeworld port added to map pool.

ahh I see now.

IT'S RON FUCKIN BRONSON BITCHES

I feel like this map is very unnatural for QL or Quake 3.

It looks like it's from Q1 or Q3. and it's not just the looks, but also the use of space, how large it is and how tricked out it is.

its deliberately made like a q1 map (note that it doesnt have curved geometry that q1 engine didnt support, except for the tentacles).... ence the name "Elder"... i believe it had something to do with an anniversary or something.

I guess Ron drops elder

get rid of it

I don't think this map is suited for competitive play. The person who spawns nearest to the key has a big advantage right off the start.

I would be happy to see a remake of the map :)

SPART1E, why is your esr username not all caps :((

Who am I?

I

AM

SPARTSSON !!1

SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAART1E

Key should spawn randomly between 30 and 60 sec in

I'd be down for that.

Yeah, would create more interesting first fight over the key and the decision to go for it or for major power uo. It's nice that way and more fair. :)

Not to mention more flair!!!

I had some really lengthy comment about why this is a horrible idea, but I have to wonder if giving feedback like this matters at all. Does it?

If you visualize a duel on this map in your mind, with the key spawning randomly, what do you think is going to happen between 0:10 and 0:30 every single game? One player will get LG, yellow, and red; the other player will get mega, yellow, and rocket.

...then what? What is there to even do on that map? LG player will just sit on LG until the key spawns, and after the 2nd item rotation one player will have 100/200, the other will have 200/100, and LG player still gets the fucking key and the whole thing is a completely pointless modification.

The goal here should be to minimize the amount of coin-flipping, not make it worse.

That makes sense. Good points.

Where did ron's big rant about this idea go?

rip

More RNG? Really?

How is that more rng than spawning closer to it? This way both players have the chance to get to it. And you even force the player to chose if hes gonna go for a major item or set up for the key. Maybe it could spawn at exactly 30 seconds in. I thought about that, but then i realized that it would easy for the player who won the initial fight to camp it since theres no rail till 2 min mark. anyway, both key spawning at 30 sec or between 30 and 60 sec would be better than this

Spawns is RNG on all maps.

Ths is just changing up the RNG.

This would just be treating the key in the same way we do Quad & BS in TDM. Let players spawn and then compete for the first item spawn. I have no problem with this and plan on making the change.

Sync, do you still bother with performance tweaks when you're making new maps for QL? If so how much time do you spend on it?

By performance I mean using caulk brushes/textures for any non-seen faces, limiting the amount of faces seen on brushes and converting multiple brush textures to a single textures to reduce the poly count.

Also, what map editor are you using?

Yup, still caulk everything and have r_speed restrictions. Detail brush everything that isn't a part of the main hull of a room. Build on the grid. Keep the back side of brushes flush. Divide brushes such that you prevent T-junctions. etc etc etc.

I can't really say how much time I spend on that type of thing, because it isn't something you should go back and do later. It's just a part of proper map making, the methodology of it all. Build as cleanly as possible.

We used to have a custom fork of radiant, ZeroRadiant, but for several years we've just been using GTK Radiant. Using 1.6.4 like almost everyone else.

What do you mean by r_speed restrictions?

I'm familiar with the basics for performance optimising and efficiency such as all the caulk, detail, grid, t-junction stuff, but how much more is there for performance optimising indicated by your 'etc etc etc'? Is there more advanced stuff that isn't located in the old (10+ years) gtkradiant guides and articles on the web archiving websites? (because that's all I've learned from).

Are you aware of a more authoritative and up to date source of information for learning all about proper map building practices? The old guides tend to be overly narrow in their scope and detail.

cityy did a really good tutorial here that I would recommend.

That is more for people who have never used gtkradiant, it doesn't go in to what I've mentioned above.

I've gone through heaps of old tutorials/guides for the old gtkradiant versions before QL was around, and those are all cool for learning basic stuff, but what I'm after is a really solid source of technical information for advanced performance optimisation and how it works with the q3 engine itself.

The closest I was able to find is this: http://ws.q3df.org/level_design/map_optimising/ - which covers the basics of some of the things Sync has mentioned.

Some hinting/rendering info is here: http://robotrenegade.com/articles/advanced-po...orial.html

That one is very hard to understand and get a good understaning of, but it's quite simple once you do. These are just player interpretations of how the Q3 engine works though or guides along the lines of 'miter a joint this way and is good for performance optimisation'

What I'm after is the most technical/advanced info on how to make a Q3/QL map run as best as it possibly can on low end hardware while maintaining nice textures/detail/size etc. It would probably have to come from someone in idsoftware itself hence my pestering of Sync :)

I should have realised you wanted something more advanced from your replies!

Those links are useful, I'll store them.

I say I'll store them, because my radiant is completely incapacitated by a mysterious spinning 3d view that has knocked my interest in mapping on the head :p

By r_speed restrictions one usually means striving to keep map's visible triangle count low.

For a well-built and optimized Q3/QL map I think it should be in range of 2000-4000 most of the time, occasionally peaking at about 5000-6000. Values above 7000 mean that your map could probably be optimized (or just inherently complicated). For Q2, wpoly count should not exceed 400 500 and typically lie within 100-300. Some folks might argue that these numbers are too conservative for modern hardware, but I like to keep them as low as original maps had (for any game).

Some old (but still legit) r_speeds optimization tutorials you might find interesting (in addition to links you've posted in #50): for Quake II and Half-Life (note that Half-Life's r_speeds are measured in polygons and thus are different from Quake3's, which count triangles or tris).

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

It's helped me to understand it a bit better and had me running around in dev mode looking at the wireframes of the triangles.

I've noticed that even on maps like dm6 the other rooms are still being drawn by the engine even when you're around a wall, but after a certain point it does drop the rendering of the other side of the map when you move further enough away.

My map isn't as good as q3dm6 in terms of rendering other rooms when not necessary, but it's good to see that even great maps like dm6 still aren't perfect and render unnecessary stuff.

Methinks for a non-trivial map it would take rather painstaking effort to get really perfect r_speeds.

The most gain comes from careful, thorough brushwork: fixing your editor's CSG operation mistakes, using less-sided brushes, profuse detailing of pillars, beams, plinths, free-standing walls, rotating stuff, ladders, steps (if needed to seal the map, they should cover flat wedge-shaped structural brush underneath), etc.

Note that some of those advice on reducing polygon count are bogus, e.g. func_wall is often abused in Quake maps, and it's a shame. By making static geometry (that is, func_walls that do not take damage and then break apart, or do not move), you're impacting the rendering performance of your map, and you're wasting an entity slot on the server. In short, don't use func_wall unless your wall is shootable, or moves, etc.

Probably the most difficult part is placing hint brushes properly (and thus effectively), as it requires knowing how BSP works and rich practical experience (there are separate tutorials on this matter). Once you've done it, there should be little room for improvement left (this is also the point when people often say "Screw this!" and stop caring).

that's definitely a good idea to try!

I'd like to see the key changed into a re-usable object (akin to a med-kit in CTF).

You could hit the use button/bind to open & close the door. Could be used in a similar manner to shooting one of the doors on T4 to imply your position/movements are elsewhere on the map from where they actually are.

Admittedly, that would give the key holder even more power, so I'd give the player without the key a 'weak' counter measure/alternative:

Put an 'open door' button on the map right next to the tele entrance in the red armor room that can open the door for a set period of time, & then the door closes.

However, the player with they key can still counter/close the door with the use-button/bind.

This would allow quick access to this area of the map for the player without the key ONLY when the key holder cannot hear/see the door, meaning if they decided to push out elsewhere on the map (rail/either yellow), the opponent can more easily punish the key-holder.

This would reward enemy awareness for both players in certain circumstances, and make the key more powerful in certain situations and far less powerful in others.

Could be cool to try out :)

why is everyone so down on elder i think its a great map

this is like the 10th time im writing this game post

Sync actually recommended that Lost World should be used instead of Elder..... so don't hate on him <3

Who makes the decision?

But I understand the pool selection and fully stand by it. And have no interest in it changing.

You replaced LOSTWORLD with ELDER?

Burn in hell you filthy non-believer!

why? elder is shit and everyone (especially the duelers) hate it. what's your motivation for being stubborn

It's ok my buying power is in not attending the event and not watching the live stream. Also not buying Doom is also more buying power as well. In fact Blizzard and Valve offer more attractive gaming options these days. Quakeworld 2v2 is cool though. I tried Elder once and thought who ever made this map wasn't thinking. Now I know its syncerror and my point was proven.

The same motivation as when he and his Trainee killed QL with no support and missing features.

Elder is an interactive, original quake themed cool map.

The only problem it has for me is size, too big for duel, scaling it to 75% and its perfect (i know its not that easy, but you get the idea).

changing the key to spawn randomly in the first 30-60 sec is an ez fix for dis map

How so? The guy who randomly picks it up will still have a massive advantage in positioning, mobility and defensive play.

You treat it like item coming up and prepare for boom goes the dynamite!

Elder's such a bore.

Also, random Quad/BS in TDM is such a fucking shit game design from competitive perspective, among other things (hello MG).

So positive as always!

I despise stagnation.

they should make the first spawn of the key after FIRST 40-50 seconds of the game

this

But I would better spawn it in 10-15 seconds after the start

I was thinking 15 - 40

It will be spawning between 30s and 45s into the match. That change is included in the next update which should be released soonish (late April or early May). It includes cvars to set the min and max time.

I'll give that a plus. I was making a joke though :(

Could you add the same cvars for other things (powerups, items, weapons)?
It will be really cool if we can see fights for the first mega and armors or even for prefered weapons. Players will have to choose and make some efforts instead of enjoying their random spawns.

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