very, very nice

pausing was fine too

A few comments are available here.

In general, I think the video is great. I like that you challenge the viewer to pause and think. I like that you show the alternative routes. Overall is really the kind of videos I would like to watch in the future.

I think there are a few production issues where you could improve, but hopefully they are not too bad.

Great Job [+]

Hey Ho!

Again - awesome. I still like the different configs for each player method. I wouldn't mind a bit more switching between povs when paused - just to get a better idea of the enemy's pov - a picture is worth a thousand words.
For your next game I'd like to see some agro avek action or maybe cooller vs tox @ qcon.

Keep it up.

Edit: $$$$$$$$ on the cooller soundbite.

perfect!

Subscribed.

[2]

just watched the first few mins. good stuff just like the first one.

altho im predicting massive amounts of hate from qlr fans considering the critique :)).

wish i had time to watch the rest now. :/

nothing wrong about cooller's game. The game itself is flawed.

dead map lol

Wow that picture looks gay.

DAMNIT XOU

u think quakerune is gay?

Very nice. To make it even better, do as Nzr0 suggested.

I would like to see a strenx vs. cypher game on furious hights.

I'd like to see any game on the newer maps (toxicity, hektik or even battleforged)

Great job btw

Why do you use default HUD instead of Coollers real HUD, and Cyphers real model instead of Cooller's forced models?

This was ridiculously good. Pauses were perfect, and the in-depth analysis they allowed you to provide has really helped me understand all the subtleties of the game and the mistakes even the highest-end pro make.

Honestly, I would pay for more videos of this caliber.

so would I. nothing wrong with getting some return on your efforts. maybe set up a possibility to donate twist3r?

Agreed. Put up a paypal twist3r.

AWE-FUCKIN-SOME!

GANZ GEIL VIDEO

(it was awesome, the pauses were perfect and the alternative routes was a nice break from the metagame)

Very, very good!

But for the love of god, use bright enemy models everytime. Raise the ingame sound volume a bit, it's too low, we can't hear if the shots hit or not, and/or use crosshair damage indication.

Higher fov and widescreen resolution would be good too, but that's minor...

It's kinda extremely fuzzy.
Maybe capture at a higher framerate or smth? (Or maybe there is some compression going on which makes it fuzzy as ****)

I'll watch it and give some more feedback though :)

nice that you took time to make this btw :x

your(=twist3r) own game is way too one dimensional imo. You hardly care about what the nmy knows and what he's thinking of... Which is why you disagree with cooller a lot of times even though it 'turns out rather nice'.
It is usualy a well thought out gamble that cooller takes where if he guesses wrong the game would be a bit more equal, and if he guesses right the game will turn heavily into his favor.

You're saying that in reference to what in particular?

if you wanna know the details I can discuss it on irc while I replay the vid.
I don't remember all the times etc.
But mainly where cooller goes for another item than you expect.
There was one fight in the mega corridor which should've won cooller the game, where just before you say he should've gone to ra (I think).

I know where you are talking about and I thought the same thing. He went for mega even though it spawned a couple seconds after red to get a better position because he predicted that cypher was going for mega and not red which is what happened.

Still don't know what you guys are talking about.

I think I wrote it as a reply to your talking at 4:11.
You're kinda missjudging cyphers health (or cooller is) but cypher took ra -> took lg damage then theres a fight at yellow which cooller wins -> cooller takes ya and deals lg dmg.

Here cooller is on 110 - 50 and Cypher should be around 85 - 30.

You even say yourself before the fight at YA happens: "The only advatange cooller has is that he has lg and cypher doesn't".
Cooller reads that cypher needs more weapons etc. and he's sure that cypher doesn't expect cooller to drop to mega.
Cypher however probably messed up a jump as he entered lg later than cooller thought he would (maybe cypher picked up the ammo at the upper ya as well which could've delayed him a bit... not sure... Maybe cypher also just thought that there was a possibility cooller would do that and he waited for the plasma bolts to be fired (my reading of the game kinda gets worse when you pause it :ppp).
Then the lg/rocket combo cypher hits does an insane amount of dmg, which is why cooller has to retreat. Had his prefired plasma worked it would've allowed cooller to hit a huge amount dmg (lg) onto cypher and the situation following would've been reversed.

But at the start of the mega fight cooller has a huge advantage. It just gets turned around due to the shots cypher hits.

I checked, cooller had 105-45 and cypher had 80-80. Cypher also had rockets and cooller didnt. And cooller only had 45lg cells left. I absolutely dont see how that constitutes a huge advantage.
Even if cooller was able to push cypher back, that probably wouldnt have given him much since he cant rocketjump to red and would have most likely lost that anyway.

I mean its obvious cooller falls down because he knows cypher needs lg and its the only place that makes sense for him to go. Getting red before would have clearly been the smarter thing to do though.

not really true because cypher has rl. If cooller first went to ra cypher could've taken lg and set up (an rl trap) near the entrance of the corridor effectively blocking cooller from getting into the mega area (so cypher would win the lg + mega).
My personal opinion would be that cooller missjudged the dmg he did at the ya (or at the ra fight... I personally thought that he did more dmg at the ra than what he apparently did).
If cypher had a bit worse stack than cooller (as I had estimated) there 45lg shots + the spammed plasma would've been more than enough to take him out...

you can take mega + go through the rl tele and be at grenade really fast. Or you can just take rail and wait for a vertical shot.

another point is at 1 min in overtime (just before the 1 min mark) 'cooller does an interresting thing, thinking cypher is afraid of going to ra --> it works out in his favor.'
Cypher wasn't afraid of going to ra, cooller just left earlier than cypher had anticipated and therefor cooller came back to ra just in time to deal dmg.

"Cypher wasn't afraid of going to ra, cooller just left earlier than cypher had anticipated"
Yes, afraid in this case was supposed to mean that cypher would take a while to realize cooller is gone, which is why he could get the yellow first. I worded it a bit weirdly i guess but I think we mean the same thing.

ye but it didn't take cypher much time at all (if any)... I mean cooller can hear the shards at rail being picked up when he jumps towards the rl shards. From there it doesn't seem as if cypher delayed anything... cooller was just really fast. :)

Cypher did not just go streight for mega, he did one fakejump before entering the tele and another before jumping to red. Had he not done them he would have made it before cooller showed up again.

strange... it shouldn't take more than 1 jump in time difference to get to travel to the resulting situation. Aka from rail shards -> ra = 4 jumps + a bit of walking... and from where cooller is when he hears the shards pickup it's around 4.5 jumps to get back to the ra (where I count falling down towards ya and falling down the stairs as jumps). Which would get them pretty damn close into getting to ra.
maybe cooller was a bit slow at taking the shards or smth (I always use the ledge on the right in order to cut down time as you keep more speed and only have to fall down after rather than having to jump again. But then again coollers initial jump was kinda far off to get to the ledge in a nice way...

But hey if that's what happened then that's what happened :p

It should be a mistake if cypher didn't do any fakejump because he can't know if cooller is gone.... from my pov it kinda felt like cooller could make it np... but as I said earlier the pauses mess up my feel for the game quite a bit :p (It's nice to have the pauses in order to explain stuff though... so it's not a negative comment to you, it's just that it puts my feel for the game a bit off.)

also at 56 seconds into the game cooller actually does what you're saying he should do, but the nade forces him to +back and cypher can get away save. He should've done what he did at the end of the game where he just aims his rail to the right side of the doorway and just leave cypher behind the wall.
Also the reason for coollers sticking around is that the possition he's in (below the nade platform) actually gives him the easier shots. Cypher just goes all or nothing and guesses right.

its also hard to guess what mind games are going on, they have played each other countless times on ztn and know each other really well

this. levels in high level quake duels are insane

Dont change the way you use configs, it's good to see what the player is seeing even though it isn't possible to make it perfect in a video.

this.

The only things he should change is to always have the scorebox on (names at the top-left of the screen), and I think cooller does not use that enemymodel/skin

He doesn't. That ranger was Cypher's model. Twist3r didn't use Coollers HUD either (but the default QL), I dno why. Last analysis he did use both players HUD. Wierd.

EDIT: It seems it was a mistake (Comment #33).

Jupp. config(s) are fine. To hell with this girly stream configs:P

good job man

but...

fov
enemycolor
>_<

great work, thx a lot!

only the drunk-vision really hurts the eyes ..

son, i am proud of you

in the next video you should keep featuring the very best players.

Now that you are done with rapha, noctis, cypher and cooller, it's difficult to pick a match between players at that level, so what most people would do is to just settle and pick a group stage match. Please don't.

maybe you could pick a LAN semi final or grand final played this year or in late 2010.

nice work! This i can watch, and actually learn something :)

To be honest I just haven't noticed the config issues. I guess you get used to whatever you are working with after rewatching it over and over again. I will make sure there will be keel bright skins and another crosshair/hud for the next vid.

Also remove screen bounces when you are hit.

Apart from those few technical issues video is great. The length and pauses are alright. Keep up the good work!

Well I'm guessing some wolfcam commands differ from the quake live commands (explains the different skins and i doubt cooller plays with the bounces on). Kind of a pain in the ass to change it tho.

edit: even though im not actually sure what you mean?!

i think cooller has the bounces on, cant remember where i saw it tho.

a quick youtube check suggests that he has the hitkick off, but i still remember seeing it someplace

movement rolling is what he has on.

yes a LOT of cvars are different

glad youre making another one, maybe try to use that crosshait beep when a shot hits, sometimes hard to hear the sound

use better microphone, your voice starts to vanish if you talk faster. you need better sound quality and cfg too ofc.

i think its not easy possible to unterstand cooller moves, but imho the major force of his decisions is his knowladge about the opponent, this would explain why he does some stupid moves (not all of them, sure).

anyway, great work!

apart from the really really nice analysis in every aspect, I agree with the negative points on the config

I would love to see this in 50 fps on owned, forget about youtube for quake :/

very nice :) hope there will be more :)

not bad but ztn? cmon

Really, really nice!

keep on Twister

i would like cleaner configs with maybe different hud&enemycolors for each player
apart from that it was very good

BLASPHEMY!!!

nicely done!

Really well done! This is exceptional compared to the lackluster casting and demo scriptwriting we get here at ESR

are those the actual configs those 2 players use?

great shit again

Not totally. Iirc both cypher and cooller plays with drawgun 0, but I guess it is set to 1 for the sake of the viewers. Also Cooller uses a custom HUD and keel/bright enemymodel, unlike in the video, but in comment #33 you can see that this was a mistake. :)

I shall subscribe. Good job.

Very nice idd. +1000 for the Cooller quote.

Sup with the configs btw? All I saw was Cooller's config, even when you switched to Cypher's POV. Something went wrong with cg_forceEnemyModel aswell I guess.

Did u use the most recent ones?

Top stuff. Needs a better looking config imo.

quite a good analysis. also, if u were trying to use the player's cfg, nice idea. although i only saw one cfg, i think it's cooller's.

for the sequences from your pov that you nicely used to illustrate your point I would suggest using a radically different config to more clearly distinguish it from the rest - the best way to do this would probably be playing around with the different bloom settings, going for a grey, dreamy kinda look.
also agreed on the enemy models and crosshair hit.
apart from that outstanding yet again, the comment about donations was by me, I'm not sure whether you can easily set up a paypal donation thingy in germany though.

Nice dude , just change the fov next time plz , the gun is too big

Great analysis, thnx!

Absolutely loved it. Thank you twister! [+]

I just saw that Coollers HUD and enemymodel was incorrect by mistake, so that makes sense now, besides that this is my opinion:

Please keep the different configs (and fov), it is, as some mentioned earlier in the thread, nice to see exactly what the player sees!

Other than that I would also like higher fps (owned.tv maybe?) because it tends to feel a bit blurry. Another cool thing is what Sub_ mentioned: using bloom to get a greyish look whenever you change to your own (twist3r) pov, so the viewer knows instantly what is going on.

Regarding the pauses; excellent!

Please keep the player's cg_fov values, it's invaluable to watch what happens exactly how the player sees it.

However, when you switch to your own pov you should use something utterly different, and the bloom thing as someone suggested seems like a good idea.

good job

I love this

Excellent work, I like the different configs for players but I think you should keep the players config like they are (cg drawgun, forceenemy model, etc.) if possible.

Wow!

That was so freaking awesome! Thank you!

ok the only big problem is that there is no indication on the HUD showing who we are speccing :D

yep, that was a bit confusing at times

Very good again.
Only suggestion is to write the player pov somewhere because many pro
players have similar cfg's.

why dont you use free-camera view sometimes, to give us a wider picture of players disposal over a map.
thx for the effort!

respect, twist3r

you can take my streaming config from there : http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2119840 if you wanna know how it looks on video just take a look there : http://www.youtube.com/user/He4rTL3sS?feature=mhee#g/u

Great work again. I liked the pauses where you went into details.
The only criticism I have at this point is the config.

Since you are presenting the game to other people you should probably use a config with better looking graphics. It is just more of a delight to look at and makes a better impression.

Keep em coming!

I liked the dm13 video much more.

The way you sometimes had your own POV and showed other options could be even better if you had a person actually doing what the enemy did and thus *showing* the results of your alternative route instead of just *talking* about them.

That's it in a nutshell, actually. You should *show* more than you *talk* to make everything you discuss much more easily accessible.

Using a 3rd-person view or birds-eye perspective or cg_wh 1 would also be a way of doing this.


I'm not gonna start a discussion on any specific situations -- which you had urged us to do --, because when I did so for the dm13 video, I sadly didn't get a response.

I'd like to add that when he did show, it could be considered a little confusing - maybe - exactly what he's showing and from which POV.

(considering newer players....)

Ok, I suppose it wasn't nice to not reply at all (I'm asuming you mean this comment.)
The reason I didn't reply is that you seem to like arguing for the sake of arguing rather than finding out whats right and wrong. Which is something I noticed with you in previous threads and the reply you made just sounded like all the others i.e. you list situations in which noctis was supposedly trying to steal the mega, which both have nothing to do with the situation at hand. All I could have replied with is 'no, I think it's what i said in the video', to which you would have nodoubtedly replied with more 'proof' etc.

Maybe it is a wrong impression I gained but in that moment I just couldnt be arsed starting lengthy discussions with you again.

you list situations in which noctis was supposedly trying to steal the mega, which both have nothing to do with the situation at hand.

Ok, 8:22 can either be seen as noctis trying to get to MH or maybe he just happened to be there by chance or by a mistake. So yeah, this was possibly a wrong interpretation on my side. This doesn't really affect my main point, though:

At 8:57 (13:06 youtube time) noctis again checks for the MH and sees that rapha takes it. More importantly, he shoots a rocket and thus, rapha *clearly* knows that noctis still has the MH timed.

--- Note: I *never* said that noctis tried to *steal* the 8:57 MH. He obviously only keeps its timing. ---

Nevertheless, noctis goes for the MH at 9:27 (and he knows that rapha knows that he has its timing). Plus, noctis is in the most obvious part of the map; rapha has probably checked all other parts of the map already.

I still think this describes what happens more accurately than what you stated in the video:

noctis made use of the fact that he played very passive the last 3 minutes and didn't try to steal any items, that's why he decided to go for the MH.

At 9:27, rapha most likely knows that the MH is the only major item that noctis has timed. Also, rapha had killed noctis at the penultimate MH (8:22) and rapha saw noctis watching him take the previous MH (8:57).

I still don't get why
(a) rapha didn't go the last MH of the map and
(b) you (and apparently also noctis) assumed that (a) would happen.

I'm not arguing just for the sake of it. I really want to understand it and I still don't feel like you've even tried to explain this in the video.

I think all there is to it from noctis point of view is that he has tried to play 'default' out of control for the previous 3-4 minutes and he didn't even come close to getting control back apart from the one time rapha rocketjumped at him. Since that seemed to not work at all he just tried to do something unpredictable and sat at mega.

From raphas point of view he saw noctis play very passive out of control. Also knowing that noctis has the mega time doesn't tell rapha he has to be extra careful about the mega. Much more the opposite as most people would then wait for rapha to go for mega and get the rocketlauncher/move to lg. So I suppose he was trying to anticipate that because it would have fitted into noctis pattern of play in the past minutes much more than waiting at mega.
Losing mega would have usually not been too much of a deal anyway as rapha still had much more armor and weapons. So potentially getting a frag and winning the game with the risk of just giving away mega doesn't seem like too bad of a move imo.
He just failed hard taking the fight vs plasma in the close corridor :p

Good vids!!!

Y'know, if only every new player could watch one of these, it would be greatly beneficial to see how a duel "plays out".

I think one of the greatest barriers to becoming a good dueler is separating, and then making decisions based on what you are doing and what your opponent might be doing or could be doing. It takes a lot of time to acquire a developed sense of tactics (weapons, spawns, health, armors, timing, position - for both players etc) because players - especially newer players - are too concerned with what they are doing at any given moment; whether it's aiming, timing an item or two, or just randomly jumping around trying to "out aim" someone. They probably have no sense of the larger picture. What is the enemy doing? What is the enemies health? What weapons does the enemy have? What are the spawns? Where might they be? Why?

It's too bad we don't have more vids like this.

great video and awesome config!

another quick suggestion to raise the production quality: create a short intro video and shoot your introduction with a (web)cam so people get to see you.

dont have one :C

which is where the donations come in ;)

Any suggestions for games are welcome.

perhaps rapha vs strenx hub quakecon' 11 final? can't really think of any good hub games, except the obvious cooller cypher quakecon 10 one

my memory sucks -.-

Btw twist3r, I don't agree about what you said about cooller's initial spawn. Had he turned back cypher is not taking more than 2 seconds to realize cooller has spawned @ pg, because any other spawn he would have heard or cooller would have already taken the mega. I think the best thing to do is rush to RL hoping cypher went for lg after mega thus maybe getting the second YA or at the very least a rocket launcher with which to set up for RA.

ninja drop behind cypher as he goes to mh, smash pg in his back while doing a perfect cj to pummel kill him right before he takes mh


YEAH!

He would have usually heared cooller if he spawned on pg too. I haven't seen anyone do what I suggested yet, all people run out to sg. So that would be quite a ridiculous read.
It should seem much more likely that he would have thought cooller spawned at rockets, went to mega and heared cypher stand there with rail and just waited.

It should seem much more likely that he would have thought cooller spawned at rockets, went to mega and heared cypher stand there with rail and just waited.

Unlikely if not impossible. If cooller spawned @ RL and saw cypher spawning @ SG I think he would be rushing to get MH at the time cypher is landing on the rail. If cooller spawned @ RL and didn't see cypher spawning @ SG the first thing he would do is spam a rocket towards MH in case cypher got the LG spawn. So in that scenario cypher will hear the rocket as he's taking red.
I mean yes it is possible that cooller is baiting MH, but how often does that happen at the very start of the game while your opponent already has red?

edit: I don't think it's possible for cypher to hear cooller @ PG, he can see him coming in the coridor as he's dropping away from RA but that's about it.

I mean yes it is possible that cooller is baiting MH, but how often does that happen at the very start of the game while your opponent already has red?

Good question. Counterquestion:
How often does it happen at the very start of the game that someone after getting the plasma spawn goes to lg?

Why is one of them obvious and the other isnt?

I don't think either one is obvious.

way too low fov. need at least 105 or something to make it watchable

Well done man.

Very nice, thanks alot!

It would be really cool if one or both of the players would comment on some key situation, maybe where he disagrees or just wants to explain how he was thinking in that particular situation :)

Great job twist3r! Looking forward to get more of these. I particiually like the pauses at the very beginning, because the first decisions right after the first spawn are hugely important - a bad start often means you are in a defensive position for quite some time.

Regarding the pauses, showing diffrent POVs and your ideas how Cooller could react at the beginning, were great and not at all too much or too long.

What I would like to suggest though is that you don't only point out mistakes, Cooller may have done in your opinion but also what Cypher manages to do.
I think of the situation when Cypher somehow escapes through the teleporter down by rail spawn, rails Cooller couple of times and makes the frag. You only play that good how your opponent lets you sometimes :-) But anyway Cooller's choice of weapon wasn't the best maybe...

Also I want to point out to everybody here that this analysis is affected by twist3r's opinion of certain decisions - there always be some people disagreeing but it's his opinion after all.

Once again, great job and keep it up!!!

PS: "You have to chose when to pause the game, and when not to pause the game!" (Sorry, I never get tired of this one^^)

These are just great! I can tell this took a lot of time and was very hard work. I really appreciate it. Please do more when you have time and post them to youtube and ESR.

Really well done! thumbs up! :)
I personally would love to have a strenx-on-toxicity-game covered!