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Support this thread! Most likely wont help, but it's worth a try since Sacrifice is 4-man snooze-fest:
https://bethesda.net/community/topic/54920/sa...importance
What I wrote in the thread:
Title: Sacrifice feedback | CTF | video examples | Personal expression in Quake and it's importance
I will try to stay as objective as possible in this thread as I wish to make Quake a popular game; thus my opinions are not for pure selfish reasons. Quake is very dear to me, indeed.
With that said, my own background might bias my opinions as I am an oldschool CTF player (1999+) who's been actively playing in the dark and dying ages of QL. Before you accuse me of being unreflected whiney veteran, I'd like you to consider the points presented and use reason in your arguements.
You're making a thread this early? Give us a break dude!
I feel ready to make a thread this early because I have now played many Sacrifice matches with the pros. Regardless, with this long experience, you gain insight into how such a mode will play out, and how it will do in the future.
In regards to Sacrifice, and the limitation it puts on individual expression, compared to CTF:
Sacrifice, even though on paper it is an objective-based game mode, it is heavily based on coordination, aim and fragging capacity. This limits the personal freedom and STYLE quake-players had in CTF.
Since everyone is after 1 objective, the game forces 4-manning. This strategy is especially true in higher skill brackets.
Sacrifice requires a coordinated attack/defence between 4 players, which itself makes it chaotic because not everyone will be ready for an attack (depending on if they were just killed or spawned somewhere tricky). In higher skill brackets, you are absolutely forced to stick to this strategy.
Compare CTF with this, in which you can attack with 100/0 HP, and depending on how creative you are as an attacker, you can make a capture without firing a single shot (aside from a rocketjump!); see examples below:
Video Examples:
- youtu.be/gaJ-ar-G4iY?t=269
- youtu.be/KsQnrshftB8?t=89
- youtu.be/qSw2fSVMzDE?t=168
CTF with abilities?
Yes! CTF is the perfect mode for abilities that exist in QC. I'd wish CTF was the main esports mode, instead of Sacrifice which is basically 1 flagctf + domination.
CTF allows for personal expression and creativity of players, and you are credited for being good at different things. Some are good defenders, others are good flagrunners, others are good at mindgames, others are good aimers. It includes everything. In Sacrifice, you do not have personal expression as it is dependent on 4-manning and powerups.
But wouldn't CTF just make Quake dead again?
Game-modes were not the reason Quake died. I think we can agree on that.
Actually, in the dying years of quakelive, the only objective-based mode that was constantly full and players waiting in line to play, were the oMega public CTF servers. Players included new ones, medium skilled and veterans.
Is Sacrifice intuitive or fun to watch? Does it allow for personal expression?
The Sacrifice gameplay is by no means friendly or intuitive to newcomers. Rather, I'd argue it's intimidating and is inviting players to become frustrated. Sacrifice is too chaotic and frag-dependent when it is played out. There is too much going on, and too many players at the same place.
If Quake is going to be both fun to play and to spectate, the main e-sports mode cannot be so heavily reliant on frags and 4-man pushes/defenses. This is not that fun to watch either, in my opinion. The casters will not be able to recognize individual contribution or strategy.
To compare, in CTF, you had the time and personal freedom to attack and escape with the flag in various ways. The casters of CTF games could predict movement and try reading a player's unique strategy.
There existed mind-games between an attacker an a defender. Some attackers had good aim, others had grab-and-escape playstyle. For example, on Spidercrossings (q3wcp9), you could time the enemy red armor, force the defender to recognize that you know the timing, and decide to attack the flag as the defender prepares for your redarmor-attack. These are some nuances that makes CTF an extraordinary mode to spectate and play. Furthermore, the attacks in CTF are often coordinated between two or three people, and the map design allows the time for coordinating a planned attack using different routes.
Example of how mindgames can affect gameplay in CTF. This is against the french defender "fishbone", who I knew had a top tier aim. Instead of fighting him (since he is stacked as a defender) I play around forcing his position instead:
youtu.be/gaJ-ar-G4iY?t=182
These are fun nuances to watch - Sacrifice does not open for these situations as it is dependent on 4-manning and a forced strategy, and not personal expression.
This is a highskill game we played back in QL (that had high rivarly as well), and was casted by zoot and ins. RED vs [nEu]. I want you to recognize the overview CTF provides for spectators, and casters.
youtube.com/watch?v=YHNFJv5o1c4
Thanks for reading,
Mastermind
https://bethesda.net/community/topic/54920/sa...importance
What I wrote in the thread:
Title: Sacrifice feedback | CTF | video examples | Personal expression in Quake and it's importance
I will try to stay as objective as possible in this thread as I wish to make Quake a popular game; thus my opinions are not for pure selfish reasons. Quake is very dear to me, indeed.
With that said, my own background might bias my opinions as I am an oldschool CTF player (1999+) who's been actively playing in the dark and dying ages of QL. Before you accuse me of being unreflected whiney veteran, I'd like you to consider the points presented and use reason in your arguements.
You're making a thread this early? Give us a break dude!
I feel ready to make a thread this early because I have now played many Sacrifice matches with the pros. Regardless, with this long experience, you gain insight into how such a mode will play out, and how it will do in the future.
In regards to Sacrifice, and the limitation it puts on individual expression, compared to CTF:
Sacrifice, even though on paper it is an objective-based game mode, it is heavily based on coordination, aim and fragging capacity. This limits the personal freedom and STYLE quake-players had in CTF.
Since everyone is after 1 objective, the game forces 4-manning. This strategy is especially true in higher skill brackets.
Sacrifice requires a coordinated attack/defence between 4 players, which itself makes it chaotic because not everyone will be ready for an attack (depending on if they were just killed or spawned somewhere tricky). In higher skill brackets, you are absolutely forced to stick to this strategy.
Compare CTF with this, in which you can attack with 100/0 HP, and depending on how creative you are as an attacker, you can make a capture without firing a single shot (aside from a rocketjump!); see examples below:
Video Examples:
- youtu.be/gaJ-ar-G4iY?t=269
- youtu.be/KsQnrshftB8?t=89
- youtu.be/qSw2fSVMzDE?t=168
CTF with abilities?
Yes! CTF is the perfect mode for abilities that exist in QC. I'd wish CTF was the main esports mode, instead of Sacrifice which is basically 1 flagctf + domination.
CTF allows for personal expression and creativity of players, and you are credited for being good at different things. Some are good defenders, others are good flagrunners, others are good at mindgames, others are good aimers. It includes everything. In Sacrifice, you do not have personal expression as it is dependent on 4-manning and powerups.
But wouldn't CTF just make Quake dead again?
Game-modes were not the reason Quake died. I think we can agree on that.
Actually, in the dying years of quakelive, the only objective-based mode that was constantly full and players waiting in line to play, were the oMega public CTF servers. Players included new ones, medium skilled and veterans.
Is Sacrifice intuitive or fun to watch? Does it allow for personal expression?
The Sacrifice gameplay is by no means friendly or intuitive to newcomers. Rather, I'd argue it's intimidating and is inviting players to become frustrated. Sacrifice is too chaotic and frag-dependent when it is played out. There is too much going on, and too many players at the same place.
If Quake is going to be both fun to play and to spectate, the main e-sports mode cannot be so heavily reliant on frags and 4-man pushes/defenses. This is not that fun to watch either, in my opinion. The casters will not be able to recognize individual contribution or strategy.
To compare, in CTF, you had the time and personal freedom to attack and escape with the flag in various ways. The casters of CTF games could predict movement and try reading a player's unique strategy.
There existed mind-games between an attacker an a defender. Some attackers had good aim, others had grab-and-escape playstyle. For example, on Spidercrossings (q3wcp9), you could time the enemy red armor, force the defender to recognize that you know the timing, and decide to attack the flag as the defender prepares for your redarmor-attack. These are some nuances that makes CTF an extraordinary mode to spectate and play. Furthermore, the attacks in CTF are often coordinated between two or three people, and the map design allows the time for coordinating a planned attack using different routes.
Example of how mindgames can affect gameplay in CTF. This is against the french defender "fishbone", who I knew had a top tier aim. Instead of fighting him (since he is stacked as a defender) I play around forcing his position instead:
youtu.be/gaJ-ar-G4iY?t=182
These are fun nuances to watch - Sacrifice does not open for these situations as it is dependent on 4-manning and a forced strategy, and not personal expression.
This is a highskill game we played back in QL (that had high rivarly as well), and was casted by zoot and ins. RED vs [nEu]. I want you to recognize the overview CTF provides for spectators, and casters.
youtube.com/watch?v=YHNFJv5o1c4
Thanks for reading,
Mastermind
Edited by MastermindQUAKE at 12:24 CDT, 14 May 2017 - 15026 Hits
