the culture.

pfft, of course it's the eyes

don't be insensitive, luigi.

i'm sorry arnold

arni is born and raised austrian

and luigi is born and raised in japan actually

briefly said, it's their work ethic which stems from their culture.

They don't thave that bullshit mentality most western pro-gamers have. For example in League of Legends teams like TSM and Cloud 9 are handeled as the best of their region (NA) and what do they do 90% of their time? Instead of training they are streaming soloq, doing some bullshit promotion gigs for Kingston or filming yet another reality-tv like episode about the team and its adventures in LCS. What do Korean teams do at the same time? Practice 12h a day locked away in their team-house. No streaming, no bullshit PR events.

The NA guys probably make more money doing what they do.

Read this post, too lazy to type the same shit twice.

Probably this. The Asians are hungry.

yeah, they're also good in hot dog eating contests

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"Instead of training they are streaming soloq, doing some bullshit promotion gigs for Kingston or filming yet another reality-tv like episode about the team and its adventures in LCS."

How do you think they make money? (:

That isn't the argument.

A backwards smiley face has always and will always automaticially negate anything said immediately before it.

(:

D:

That's not backwards, though, because it changes the meaning of the emote, entirely.

Making money has nothing to do with the initial question at hand. The question was "why are Asians the (arguably) best in eSports?" and not "What players make more money in eSports and how do they do it?".
If we want to go down that road, SKT T1 are probably making far more money from playing and being the best than TSM from mindlessly streaming for hours instead of practicing.

well TSM and Cloud9 probably understand that LoL is a fraud esport game with no actuall skill involved, so they take advantage of their position and status instead of practicing a ridiculous fraud game, it makes sense to me

The skill level differences between NA and Asian level are immediately noticeable by anyone that plays the game, therefore practicing does matter and there must be actual skills involved.

At that level things like game knowledge, execution speed, being analytical and top level experience are of the essence. Those things don't come from thin air: Asians know the match ups better than the rest, they study the game's numbers and study their opponents too, they are faster because they practice to be the fastest (it's not natural), they even train psychologically and make the hard decisions too (expelling players), and they have more meaningful experience because they play more at top level.

The same can be said about every activity. The guys that put the most effort are the ones that win. Talent and previous game's experience only get you so far. Deliberate practice is what wins tournaments and the reason why some have that focus, those goals, is some are more motivated than others, or were better educated by their families.

it has a lot more to do with mental state than you would think. In a game like Quake even more so. It's not only about how motivated you are and how many hours you put in

just like in any sport proper mental state = half of win if not more.

This.

There's nothing different about them. They're not "naturally talented" at video-games (lol), their brains and cognitive processes are exactly the same of any non-asian person. They just prax like mad, thats all. Good n' old hard work.

Also, achieving a certain mental state is also matter of practice/training.

As a matter of fact there are differences every race has its characteristics whether we like it or not. We can call nature "racist" but I don't think that the nature will care.

I know, man. I just don't think that there's "something" about them, in a biological sense, that makes them good at e-sports and video-games. I think it's a matter of culture.

There are indeed differences between every race, and these differences manifest through all sorts of physical traits, but when it comes down to how our brains works, it's all the same. There's hardly a bigger bullshit in history of neuroscience than the "western brain vs eastern brain" thing.

So, unless you guys are talking about how well their tiny bodies can adapt to the chair in front of the PC, the culture factor is the best explanation so far.

haha i can guarantee you the retards that make up those teams absolutely do not think that way.

cg_fov 130

if they took FPS games more seriously they wouldn't be as dominant as they are in RTS/moba games.

i'd say games like CSGO, TF2, CoD and any arena shooters are more suited for europeans and americans

i mean, don't want to sound racist or anything but i think that RTS/moba games are more suited for asians while for FPS, europeans have them in their blood :D

most RTS/moba games needs 8-12h/day to be efficient at it, while FPS definitely don't need as much practice, there's this thing called natural talent and loyalty/fidelity to the game you love.
i mean, most CS progamers don't spend 12h/day playing the game they love. They just practice regularly and efficiently and most of the best CS progamers are naturally talented at it. Talent without work is nothing, but if you play let's say 2-4hours/day for 5+ years, and if you're naturally talented at your game, then bam, you can become one of the best ever.

and what i like about quake is that most of the best players are 20+years old and they play this game for about 6-7+ years. You don't see that in a game like let's say starcraft. At a game like starcraft you can become insanely good if you start playing at 14 years old and you play 8-12 hours/day, but in a game like quake it's different. If you don't play quake for like 5+ years regularly, no matter how young you are, you WON'T be the best, even with hardcore practice method. Quake is actually a very mature game i'd say that compared to starcraft, most of the best players ever are 21+ years old. You know, it's kind like MMA, for example fedor emelianenko dominated only at the age of 30+, people like anderson silva are hardcore veteran, george st-pierre is also an MMA geek, and jone jones dominated only at the age of 24. It's almost the same for quake :)

I';ve just never bought the whole "in your blood" or "natural talent" argument. That rhetoric too me, although I've heard it many times, just feels like a cheap cop-out. I think certain cultures have certain things about them that push those people to be on top of their field. Like the way they are raised and what not. The "just born to be that way" argument has never held any meaning to me. I think there is definitely certain things about certain societies/cultures that push people to be as good as they are.

I've always wondered why when I look at video game sales charts that by and large Asians don't buy FPS games. It's always been that way in asia.

Your MMA comparison is stupid.

why ? :)

First of all, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.
Second, you contradict everything you say in your sentence about MMA.

I am afraid an army of jibos would make you look bad with that statement.

jibo is half chinese half russian ;)

and still he didn't win any major tournament when he was active

He won CPL Singapore over dkt (and rocketboy)!

they just do not like FPS genre in general for some reason otherwise they would have dominated it too just because they have billions ppl out there so the chance of appearing of outstandingly good players is simply alot more than in EU and US combined.

Europe and the US have about a billion people combined too. Of those, probably 500,000 have ever played a fps game.

What makes you think that? Many FPS games sold way more units than that.

"most RTS/moba games needs 8-12h/day to be efficient at it, while FPS definitely don't need as much practice"

"At a game like starcraft you can become insanely good if you start playing at 14 years old and you play 8-12 hours/day"

The difference is that Quake is a small game with no tournaments worth practicing 8 hours per day for. Any young player can reach a top level if he would train in an efficient way, with a valid reason to do so. "MOBA" or "RTS" do not require 8-12 hour per day training schedules, it's just that happens more often because there's a legitimate reason to put your life into it. Perhaps there is a point where time spent in game directly correlates to ability, but i'm still going to put it down to their approach to practice, rather than the physical number of hours spent doing it. The reason you'll see this less in FPS in general is because of the nature of shooters, moving your mouse around for hours on end in a game like Quake is a very quick road toward burning out and/or RSI without due care. Also, before a tournament like DreamHack or QuakeCon i'd bet many players put in extra time in and out of game too, mental game and all that, through demo analysis and figuring out how you're going to counter the player that will be in front of you.

You're making a lot of assumptions based on what? It's not about the time you put in to "train", but about "how you train". Once you figure that out maybe you'll expand further than 1v1 Thunderstruck (please do).

The difference is that Quake is a small game with no tournaments worth practicing 8 hours per day for.

But CS isn't a small game ;), and still it's dominated by european players :)

Any young player can reach a top level if he would train in an efficient way, with a valid reason to do so.

Yes, maybe, but still, when you are young you have much more time to spend practicing your hobby than if you're older (job, family etc). And even with that, i don't recall any young player that beat cooller rapha cypher dahang zero4 toxjq etc...

the only young player who did well at quake was av3k at quake 4. But even with that, quake 4 was dominated by toxjq.

"MOBA" or "RTS" do not require 8-12 hour per day training schedules, it's just that happens more often because there's a legitimate reason to put your life into it.

Actually they do. If it wasn't the case korean/chinese people wouldn't dominate the scene by practicing 12hours per day when most european/american only spend 6-8hours max.

Also, before a tournament like DreamHack or QuakeCon i'd bet many players put in extra time in and out of game too, mental game and all that, through demo analysis and figuring out how you're going to counter the player that will be in front of you.

Ofc most of them do that! But still they are not practicing 12hours/day, except maybe dahang :p. And during the year they are definitely NOT practicing more than 6 hours per day. Not even counting the retirements (and then comeback :p) or the break they take from the game after a major tournament.

Most of them don't need 12hours/day of practice time mainly because they are now extremely experienced players and they play quake for 6+ years.

Once you figure that out maybe you'll expand further than 1v1 Thunderstruck (please do).

I play whatever i find the most fun to play ;). For me having fun and being good at what you like most is the most important thing. I agree tho that i almost don't get any reward for being good at thunderstruck :D. I mean i don't tell my parents "hey look at me i'm one of the best at thunderstruck wooowooh", actually they fucking don't care. And also i don't get any money by doing it ;). But still, it's fucking fun to play with music in your headset ;).
But yeah maybe i should start a duel career :)

CS is a small game outside Europe and North America, Asia is dominated by Crossfire and other similar F2P.

"And even with that, i don't recall any young player that beat cooller rapha cypher dahang zero4 toxjq etc..."

...didn't Cypher start winning big back in 2006 at age 16...against opponents like cooller, toxjq, jibo, etc...?

nop ^^

can you 'splain me? not sure i get what you're talking about

cypher started to "dominate" in 2009. He was also good in 2007-2008 with quake 3 CPMA, but wasn't as good as he is now for sure.

and he started to get good at the end of quake 4. He placed well at quake 4 serveral times but did not dominate the game as much as toxjq did. Afaik he wasn't as good as av3k at quake 4.

;)

CS is small outside of NA/EU.

Tremendous discipline, dedication and... asian metabolism.

I remember reading a blog (well, it was more like a diary) of Rekrul, an american who went to South Korea to become a Brood war professional, along with his friend (Assem). They werent that good, but they had a lot of self confidence and, naturally, both had the goal to become #1 in the world.
They joined their korean team in a small house with two "practice" rooms.
Rekrul and Assem did everything they were requested to, practiced 8 hours a day, studied replays. They were in this mode for like 3 weeks, became tired and every day after their "shift" was over, they started to hit the gym, went to see a movie or dated girls. Their coach saw that and asked them "Are you here to play or on vacation?". They were like zomg, we play 8 hours a day.

And then they realised the korean pros and semi-pros play 20 hours a day. Really, they woke up, boiled some water for noodles, started the day with some replays and then they played until complete exhaustion. Got their 4 hours of sleep (was enough for them) and continued. The americans couldnt get below 7 hours of sleep and couldnt get above 12 hours of practice per day, in long term.

From what I had gathered back then, playing 20 hours per day was absolutely standard among the koreans. I remember Boxer saying in some interview that he practiced for a league finals 22-23 hours per day for weeks.
Things changed a little after one of the korean pros (Silent Control) fainted during a live show due to exhaustion, after he didnt sleep or eat for days. After that the pros still played the usual 20+ hours a day, but the coach became responsible for their nourishment. Most of the teams also established jogging (one hour in the morning) to get the players in better shape.

This story should prove how dedicated and disciplined the asians are. Thats the difference between them and us, as we want to enjoy life and have free time. They dont care about that and simply do every fucking thing to reach their goals.
Oh, and they dont sleep.

20hours wtf xD

20 hours lmao

this is bullshit in case anyone is seriously wondering.

Some absurdly hardworking guys pracc 16 hours a day near a tournament, like jaedong, but nowhere is 20 hours a day is standard

Too bad this isn't 5 years ago and I dont have the links to back it up.

All I can say is I wasnt there and I cannot be 100% sure that its true, as I havent seen it with my own eyes, but what I wrote is based on what I read and heard. Maybe some of the old bw vods on Gomtv are still up/accessable - the co-commentator, Daniel Lee, former pro-team coach, talked about this several times.

What youre right about is that the word "standard" makes it sound as if *all* the koreans played 20 hours per day, which I didnt mean to say. Ill rephrase and say it was not uncommon for the top players to practice around 20 hours/day.

For like 1 day, or a few absolute max. Some people. Nothing you could call uncommon. The only time of read such numbers was in Boxer's biography, which was his personal decision to do it. And I've heard that flash or jaedong would practice for like 16 when they had finals in consecutive weeks, but that's not 20.

Someone call PETA or something.

At least they don't have personalities =^)

Why can't South Korea be more like North Korea? I've heard they're pretty humane.

I don't believe for one second you need to play that much as you would lose any gains through tiredness.

Neither do I believe tarnishing an entire demographic of westerens based on the failures of two Americans is right.

They just have better conditions for that game over there, just as the west has better conditions for FPS games.

P.S.

A European just won EVO 2014 @ Street Fighter, a game which has more pedigree in terms of competitiveness than any other. there were players there who had been playing that series of game for over 20 years.

It doesn't get any harder than that.

SnakeEyes is the best though :D and i hate to fight against Zangief

I would blame the recent changes made to street fighter which flipped the whole scene upside down.

Shoto character like Ryu had too much frame advantages and invincibility as well as too much combo-ability for the other characters I would say. Now that they are finally making the rest of cast more viable, a lots of new names are emerging.

However.... some changes were probably not needed. Rose was already pretty good before the update, now it is just ridiculous. No surprise that Louffy just took down 7 guys in a row with minors losses.

We could almost say that most known pro player not placing themselves in the top 10 is a bad thing since the closer you get to random results at the end of one tournament, the more it mean that the level of skill required is not as high.

But there is too many factors to stop there.

We could say that Street Fighter at its core is pretty balanced and random, but when the environment does not change that much (versus the same opponents) the skill ceiling raise by a tremendous level due to the high amount of mind games present and adaptation required.

True, I would be lying if I said they had not made the game more accessible.

Super Turbo 4evr!

Super Turbo is pretty boring to watch nowadays though imo, it hasn't aged that well. animations are so slow and choppy

Rose may be boring, but a FeiLong-Sagat finals (Fuudo-Bonchan) would've been worse imo. Plus, who can complain about a European champion? Probably the salty murricans who have been claiming that Europe is free in the fgc

I missed players like Gamerbee and Xian in top 8, their characters and playstyle is really fun to watch

thats just myth. No human can go under 4hrs of sleep for weeks.
Also judging by the look of Asian pro SC2 players in interviews and at tourneys they do not look exhausted by any means.

huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

IIRC, there are some people who do maybe 4 hours or something like that in one go are okay, too. Just extremely rare. Most people who do it are fucked up, but there are loads of them.

Not that Koran progamers do that.

i can do like 2 or 3 hours/night for like a month, beyond that i started getting hella sick :D

china in dota2 is almost the same
there was interview with like the manager of na'vi who are from ukraine
and a chinese manager
the whole thing was chinese just play all the time they dont do anything else while na'vi go out they stream they have fun
chinese players play 10+hours a day and they have nothing to do they abandon school work life just to play(that was for The International 4)
Also I feel europeans are too conscious about people's perception and how they might think its nerdy to play a lot.

If you got a legit chance to score the 5 million as a team (or even second place) that is not even a bad career choice. A few years of discipline for more money than most ppl earn in far more years isnt a bad trade

i definitely agree more than worth it
One of the players from the winning team is retiring and marrying a chinese model

Especially in China apparently, the avg wage in Bejing was around 6500 euro a year in 2013, so they are pretty much set for life (even if they only get to keep half)

"asian metabolism"

no wonder you are an american puritan Mr racism.

Human races differ. That is a fact.

i didnt said it did not. i was merly pointing the fact that you pretend that "asian" have a more suited metabolism for this but not that. Such scientific, much wowo.

Also puting all the asians in the same bag quite stupid of you means you know nothing about the topic of ethnology.I cant point you to good books about it because you know we live in freedom and democratic countries where it is forbiden to just talk about theese topics.

I thought Puritan likes to make evaluation of human races and make a lader to see which is the best? Am i wrong?

That would be racism. I've read some writings writen by jews and they do the exact same but to an extreme and beyond any limits of dignity that it becomes shoking. If you want to read racism go read the Talmud.

Stop being mad

Biologically, empirically there are indeed different human races, with pros and cons across many aspects that go way beyond skin color. An "Asian" is different than a "Polynesian". More importantly, within one race and within any human group, including "crossbreeds", you can see it yourself quite clearly, with some kids being objectively smarter than others, or physically more gifted. Potential and talent do exist, including among small groups of peers and even as whole societies, with of course differences getting more diffuse the bigger the group is.

The thing is such phrases don't sound politically correct, hence why in current human sciences they either disregard such affirmations -no matter empirical science proven, for example about metabolisms and DNA- or they call them differently, which in essence is an euphemism.

Of course I'll have to say the following, so it isn't misinterpreted:
1) Potential and talent don't mean anyone can't become whatever they want to be, if they train from their childhood like everyone does, but it does mean some guys will have it harder than others in some activities.
2) Conditions are of the essence as well, meaning that if in a group jogging/running is something everyone does then it's a better ambient to become a pro runner.
3) Individual and familiar focus and motivation is as well, which is way more important than any of the other factors (unless a huge disability or handicap).
4) That in this particular case of progaming and whatnot there's no way of knowing if Asians have a natural advantage over the rest, as there's no studies so far, but there are in other sports. To take a wild guess, I'd say they do not in here because this is pretty much just sitting in a front of a computer.
5) Understanding that there are differences between races and within groups of people is not being a racist, or a discriminatory thought. If anything the opposite holds true and embracing diversity is something quite positive, on an individual and on an institutional level.

Science already proved that human eugenism just does not work. Some just don't want to understand it.

The reference to "crossbreeds" is just to say that there aren't pure races anymore, when talking about what's going on inside groups. In the end the idea is to say that there are distinct differences in those.

So, I have no idea if eugenics work or not in humans. Never intended to refer to that really.

gaming 20 hours per day doesn't give u a body liek dis

I love me some asian women. This one chick wanted to eat out my asshole. I didn't even ask for it, they just aim to please.

...strictly on need-to-know basis.

incest

and it was all good untill you found out she has a dick

i'm not gay man but its not a deal breaker if she has a dick, asians have tiny dicks so I'd just tell her to turn around and keep it hidden and do her ass. You ever seen an asian ladyboy? they take good care to look like a woman, no hair anywhere and fake tits and asians naturally look metrosexual

http://imgur.com/a/iHrxV

I refuse to believe that i'm the only guy that has jacked off to tranny porn. A tranny doing a regular hot woman is LESS gay than a guy doing a regular hot woman.

It's 2 women and a dick vs 1 whole guy and a woman.

LESS GAY.

Soooo gay

Hear, hear! Wanking off to shemale porn is a straight guy thing. Women love yapping about feelings, gay men like fashion images of toned men. Straight man's brain is wired to love young juicy ass and titties, and due to programming error, also thai ladyboys with dicks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4

bro i'm not saying i'd actively search out and fuck a shemale, shits weird son, but like if some fine ass hottie starts kissing me at da club and we go into the bathroom and i'm about to put it in and then suddenly i'm sword fightin her, that don't mean ima stop, i'd just turn her around and attack dat ass.

i'm a persistant nigga, naw'mean?

girl on the inside hot on the outside

You went too far. Nigga you gay

10/10 would bang

thats actually a thai ladyboy

are you implying i should change my answer? :P

no D:

did you meet this girl closed to Christie subway station?

I've met many people from South Korea(or just Korea) and it is probably cultural, its interesting on how they pay a lot of attention for Starcraft and knowing all about the game.

I am Korean. Koreans are just naturally talented at games. koreans were good at arcade games like tekken legend of hwarang and street fighter mostly action games. i know foreigners only think about starcraft but arcade action games were much more popular and I can see my korean friends are all extremly naturally good at it and learn very quickly. not much practice needed. you can see koreans are naturally good at games and can learn amazing skills. I am korean and I always thought koreans are naturally good at video games. korean kids just love competition and love learning skills to beat others. I am not this type of korean though so I always admire other regular kids and friends growing up so I can be kind of same as other foreigners. I know foreigners talk about only starcraft and play 12 hours a day but thats not really the case because starcraft is not that popular compared to action arcade games and koreans are very skilled at these games before star craft. korean kids learn it very fast. for pro practicing 12 hours, this is managers always trying to enslave korean people. korean people has slave mind set because managers at companies force them working so much with very little money. but, I can see other koreans kids are really naturally talented at arcade action games that they dont need much practice to be good at those. Koreans are honestly bad at every else and dont have good sense but only thing i can see we are good and naturally talented at honestly is arcade action games. cypher is amazing but how i can explain is if you come to korea you can see cyphers in the streets playing tekken and street figters.

6/10 also tldr

nah

whut?!

Africa one cracked me up :)

:D KOREA!!!

what was the name of that famous Star Craft player, silent_moon isn't it? or just Moon?
people told me that the military in korea invited him to work with military intelligence hahahaha is it a hoax?

Moon is a warcraft player
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Moon

Watch out.. the PC police comin' to getcha!

HEY

Genes.

Their genes are in fact denying them the possibility of dominating the FPS scene.

You need a pair of wide open eyes to be good @ quaek, bro.

But dem maths bro ! They can calculate the exact propability of where the guy is gonna be when the rocket lands nad then calculate the complete movement patterns and playstyle and just walk over !

I would like to see they calculate how many thousand hours of practice/study per day they would need in order to play against cyph and not eat rockets in teh face )))

(-.-) vs (0_0)

They are Asian.

besides the hardworking mentality and so on, the big difference is team structures. they practice in a much more efficient way.
and i disagree with someone up there saying they'd not dominate fps games, i think it's bullshit, if those games would only be as popular there from the beggining like mobas or rts they'd dominate in those too.
also watch this: http://youtu.be/KoiUYzFSvcI (the guy (kind of "long time" retired pro LoL player)) talking bout difference betwen like highest elo in Korea and NA, EU - it's not really serious but gives some idea (challanger = > 2400 ql elo) =))