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Are all these prizes normalized by the number of players?

As in- do I need to divide the prizes for team games by the number of players in said team? Thus making sc2 the most paying esport per head? And would aslo probably bump quake live up a couple of spots too.

It's the total amount, not divided by players per team.

That is sort of misleading then. Because what matters are individual earnings if you compare those games.

yepp. seems like this list doesnt really shows anything besides the ammount of cups and players. more active game means > more cups > more money

Yup, the idea was to encapsulate a ranking based on how much money an eSport gave away. We do have team earnings but they are community dependent. Think of the system as a wiki that you can edit by creating an account.


So you can add a team, player, tournament etc. Populate their details and all the numbers will automatically reflect in this graph and will automatically contribute to the eSport ranking. http://www.progamingtours.net/esport-graph/


Player earnings are easy to maintain if you disregard their roster history but with all the team changes and a vast list of eSports we maintain, it becomes tricky. It's still a part of our plan but that depends on how well we're able to maintain roster updates.

I am aware of the complications of the finer points. Your research and gathered data is still a great insight. I just wanted to point out to the reader that they should consider that the prizes are divided. For a most simplistic approximation dividing the prize by the number of players that share the prize. And you are correct this still would not be an exact number as we don't know what their contracts are, how much the team owners take from that pool or how much they get paid.

It doesn't take into account a lot of things. IE how much money made by those players playing said esport - some players in the team based games namely LoL and Dota2 will make hundreds of thousands a year not even winning a tournament because of endorsements and stream income.

some players in the team based games namely LoL and Dota2 will make hundreds of thousands a year <-- ye right... where do you get that from?
You seem to be forgetting that the organisation who have them under contract know that a 15yr old kid doesn't have use for more than a few dollars each month.

Both are speculations really. I am actually inclined to believe you on the matter, just wondering if you have any source? Because those things are usually hidden behind contracts etc. However, even in professional football some super talented young players make small money until they hit 18. I think this was the case with C. Ronaldo when he was a young talent.

I just base it on real life information I've had from other players... and being under contract for a while myself etc.

I've been out of the loop for a while though so maybe it's better nowadays.

It used to be the case that players are gratefull just to be given the oppertunity to play at a lan. (aka flight + hotel costs are usually paid by the organisation... after that it becomes more difficult)

Some of them get 'a salary' of around 200~1000 euro/month but that used to be extraordinairy.

Top league of legends players will make $50-100 an hour streaming. Some stream 6-10 hours a day, 5+ days a week.

Why do you compare your own experiences (not even a pro player) to dota 2 guys? This is a new era not even comparable to 1.6 and quake times. Last weekend almost 300k people watched starladder. The russian stream hat over 100k alone. You really think someone like dendi doesn't earn a shit ton of money because the team takes most of the money?
Pursuing a ''esports'' career is dumb but to say the top doesn't earn a lot is wrong.

for me to sign a contract I'm pretty damn sure to inform what other people get ;)

So at that time I was well informed. And I still go to lans and talk to some players (from other games). They all kinda confirm that it's a hobby ;)

I don't think that over 4 years that much has changed though.... And seeing how it's still the case that teams still take prize money (or a cut of it) means that their financial model still is fundamentally wrong -> players don't get paid much.

Teams should get their revenue from advertising rights etc.

Quake was never as big as wc3 or cs 1.6 in terms of prize money/salary. And those two are nothing compared to dota 2 (and lol but I don't know much about lol and salaries).
So I'm not sure how you can be certain that dota 2 guys don't earn a lot when most of the top 10 teams are full time players. That's 50 players who live off dota and most of them not too shabby.
I don't see the problem about cutting the prize money. Flights, hotels and salary has to be paid out. And most of them rather have a stable and granted income than the chance to win the big pot. So cut+solid income > low salary+chance to win big

I don't think that over 4 years that much has changed though

Haven't you read what I wrote? The interest in dota is bigger as it ever was. You can't compare it to four years back and especially not with something like quake. Guys like dendi regularly draw over 10k+ viewers on his stream for a couple of hours and you think someone like him gets a view hundred bucks per month?

it wouldn't suprise me in the least if that was the case.

I've talked to grubby as well (wc3 superstar). He didn't get a salary that made me go "omfg I'm playing the wrong game".
Although that was several years back.


The thing is that there were/are several structural wrongs in the gaming scene. I kind of assume that they still are there (and most things I hear are in agreement with that).

That gaming organisations still take a cut out of prize money is just really strange imo. The thing is that all of these gaming clans make money through advertising someone's products. In order to do so as an organisation they sign a contract with a sponsor in which they ask a structural income for the organisation.
Obviously the better they advertise the products the happier the sponsor is, and the more he's willing to pay for the next year. (or sometimes there are bonus rewards for winning a tournament etc.)

Winning a lan is good advertisement --> structurally more money for the organisation. So why would they have to take the money which the players earned?


It's similar with "streaming". I know that (in the past) dreamhack paid casters to cast.
I'm also fairly sure that last DHW the streamers were paid for their services.
But a stream generates money through it's advertisements. Which means that they get an income based on the quality of their show. Which should mean that they should actually pay DHW for the rights of airing their (highly entertaining) tournaments.

There are too many things still messed up in the scene...

Grubby was getting around 10k$ per month when he was in MYM.WC3. Moon was at about 12k$.

That gaming organisations still take a cut out of prize money is just really strange imo.

Why is that strange? You think it is different in sports? They get their regular salary and maybe a bonus when they score/win.

The thing is that all of these gaming clans make money through advertising someone's products. In order to do so as an organisation they sign a contract with a sponsor in which they ask a structural income for the organisation.

Yeah and that money goes into bootcamp/housing for players, staff, webside, flights (5x1k), accomodation (same as flights), rent for an office, salary and so on. There is not much left and I doubt there are many managers who work in esports only.

Winning a lan is good advertisement --> structurally more money for the organisation. So why would they have to take the money which the players earned?

Without the organistaion the players wouldn't even be able to win that tournament?! I doubt u'll find a set of players who are willing to pay their own trips. The risk is way too high especially considering you have more than one tournament a year.
In sports it's not really different. Players get a regular salary and a bonus for winning/scoring. So why should it be different in gaming?

It's similar with "streaming". I know that (in the past) dreamhack paid casters to cast.
I'm also fairly sure that last DHW the streamers were paid for their services.
But a stream generates money through it's advertisements. Which means that they get an income based on the quality of their show. Which should mean that they should actually pay DHW for the rights of airing their (highly entertaining) tournaments.

You think the casters do shit besides casting? Who pays/allocates for the equipement and infrastructure? Dhw does. Whose ads do you see on the stream? Dhws' sponsors.

I agree that things are messed up but a lot of people see more than there actually is.

It's about healthy economics.....

Soccer is probably the main sport you're referring to....
In soccer you have the "champions league" and similar tournaments. Which act in a very similar way as the gaming tournaments are now.

(unhealthy economics)
An organisation hosts a large tournament
--> it sells the rights to air that to streamers (gaming isn't there yet ;p). (the streamers in turn make money by selling air time)
--> it uses that income to put up prizes for teams (progressing a round / winning a match etc).
--> the teams must see the prize (partially) as add revenue. (the teams also get a bit of money from the spectators at their venue)


Meanwhile the non-tournament soccer stuff (like national leagues). Work like this:
(healthy economics)
An organisation hosts a large tournament
--> each team signs a contract with some sponsor and each team signs a contract with a streamer. (sometimes according to guidelines made by the overseeing organisation but the money structure is not affected).
--> each team uses this income to finance all of their regular costs.

-----
Usually in both cases there is also some backer who puts up a prize for the winner of the tournament. But it's not neccessary.
If there is a prize though then this can be shared among the players / staff as a direct bonus.
In soccer this is not the case because the prizes themselves are funded by add-revenue which should (in a healthy economic model) be a stable income for the teams.
-----
There is a reason why organisations like the uefa have a lot of critism on them.
At the moment the money structure in the gaming community is even more extreme than the structure of the champions league.


Meanwhile individual sports like tennis don't have this stuff at all.... Sure the tennis player doesn't have to keep all prize money to himself (he can give a bonus to his trainer(s) / spend more on traveling luxurious / other things he would find fair). But he gets the money. It doesn't go to his trainer who then pays the player a salary.

Ocelote stated that he earned close to a million dollars in 2013.

I'm pretty sure the top teams earn a lot more than what you are proposing. There is a lot of money in DotA and LoL, and prestigious rosters like the ones on NaVi and The Alliance have insane stardom.

I get the feeling that you aren't considering the amount of merchandise sold around the world, not only in the west but also with the huge masses in China. The players have a considerable worth as a brand, and you can bet your ass that a superstar like Dendi gets much, much, much more than what he needs, just to ensure that he will play with the NaVi tag.

I'm also remembering an interview where they could tell that their organisation doesn't take any of their prize money. That would mean that they could split that one million dollar prize from The International 5 maybe 6 ways. Just another awesome perk I guess :)

I'm pretty sure the teams make tons of money as well... just that they don't feel obliged to share that with the players.

"I'm also remembering an interview where they could tell that their organisation doesn't take any of their prize money." <-- That there still are organisations that do is just pure ripping off players.

Yes I'm inclined to agree about that last part. I don't know if it is actually a standard by now. Let's hope so.

I thought if you are playing for a team/organization it would be natural that they took some of the winnings. Esp. for players/teams that live in team houses and have provided housing, equipment, food and cleaning.

A fair deduction would just sound reasonable to me.

I'm pretty sure most teams besides EG/Alliance aren't having such a great time.

On the last part, teams pay their players salaries. In return they (some, not all, also depending per game per team) take a part of the prize. It's like a football club earns the money a team wins in the Champions League. That money doesn't go to the players (maybe a bonus).

15 year olds are not allowed to play League of Legends professionally. afaik it is 16+ or maybe 18+, unsure - I know one of the fnatic players couldnt play for a long time because he was too young.

In terms of what they would have to give to organisations, Im sure it would be a bit - most players make more money streaming than they will winning tournaments (in any tier1 eSport). Idra for instance was kicked from Team EG when he told people this, but it was because of the delivery than the topic ;)

Ocelote, former SK Gaming player in League of Legends made over $1m last year through streaming and endorsements - he has never won a premier tournament but has won a few smaller events but probably didn't net more than $8-10k for those.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/league-of-le...0-6415722/

Pretty sure Shootmania paid out more cash than quakelive..

In 2013?

They had Zotac with like 700eur every month. Eswc & several smaller lans aswell. So yea, in 2013

^

A shootmania sympathizer! All point and laugh!:)

ok so its much more than stated on that website but I dont think its close to QL.

"They had Zotac with like 700eur every month"
Was it really that much? Anyway 125 FPS league gave out about 1K every month for the whole year (plus various one map and other fun cups) and there is FACEIT of course. Zotac had SM for 6 months before they dropped it. I know ESL has online SM cups but no idea if there is any prizemoney in it.

ESWC was the biggest SM LAN in 2013 and it was only $15K. No idea about the small lans but Quake had few of those as well.

Shootmania's launch event had a 100k$ prize pool.

Yeah, totally forgot about that 100K$ tournament that barely got 1K viewers on stream heh

that ranking hurts

Deletion requested by user.

Why don't you go out there and HYPE the fuck out of Quake Live if you love it so much, AND you allegedly are able to increase the viewers tenfold for a tournament? Show some commitment for God's sake instead of your constant whine upon whine. Show what you can do for the game.

He can't. Every word out of his mouth is worthless whine. He said he was going to bring demo analysis, he did one, that's all. He has no commitment to anything but his narcissistic ego. You shouldn't have graced his existence with your reply.

You're right, I'm sorry.

world of tanks, lol

seriously some ql fan needs to win the lottery so we can have a regular not for profit lan!

also what about the unrecorded money, I lost 15 euro to ins on eye2eye so please could you alter the figure to include this.

Is there anything objectively wrong with WoT as a competitive platform?

I get the feeling that quake players have always had a delusional superiority over other games including other quake games/mods. While the reality is that quake players mostly fight over petty pennies, such that a lot of top players are inactive.

FaceIt's and 125fps are doing a great job, but they are more like practice leagues. This is hardly competitive as there are almost no new players who can hold the candle to the big old names. The big old names that attained all their skill while there was actually money in quake that generated a fierce competition and brought talent and dedication the game.

There aren't really any names that have risen to the top over the last years and I don't believe it is because the old players are just so damn good there is just a lack of motivating competition. Don't take it from me, read what baksteen or plazma say on the matter.

While I am not a huge follower of other esports, I think it is rather safe to say that the best pros in games like LoL, Dota2, CoD or sc2 are much more talented and skilled than the top quake players. As uncomfortable it might sound to quake players I am certain it is the truth and arguing that quake as a game is an objectively better competitive platform doesn't change the fact that the game has stagnated over the last few years regarding skill progression.

yep indeed
more money=more competition=newer players=interesting game=higher skillcap

it's an mmo about tanks

There is nothing mmo-ish about the battles. The mmo elements are just to keep you playing and grinding for better tanks, but the competitive areas of the game have a hard cap how much you can bring to the battle field. So it is not the mmo model where you stomp each other and the guy with the bigger boots wins.

idk there's just something funny about tanks imo

"Tanks: like angry houses", as PCGamer magazine used to say...

I actually remember reading that.

Out of interest, I bought a PC Gamer issue about 2 years ago for a flight and it seems PCG went full-on LoL/pewpewdie retard after GIllen et al went to RockPaperShotgun.

Yeah, a lot of the writers from PCZone got shuttled in after their magazine was shut down and most of the golden era PCGamer writers moved on to RPS. + everything became a bit more corporate, so PCGamer lost a lot of the character of its older days.

There are still some great articles - Richard Cobbett's Crapshoot is always entertaining http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/04/crap-shoot-the-you-testament/ - but all in all the magazine isn't what it once was.

So it goes, I guess...

Give the old pros a brand new map pool they probably wont hold a candle to the newer players out there.

example: KOTH last night ZorakWar easily took out chance on Sinister last night and had him in negs. for awhile finally winning 19-4 after the full 10 min.

That is the issue with quake the game is so old that the viewing audience just cant let go of the old greats so they keep demanding map pools that have old school maps that belong in a museum. I think it is fine to run older maps in the lower level events that we run in Faceit and 125fps. But if we truly want to generate more interest in the game we should be running predominantly newer maps in all the major cash cups. Yes, the old greats wont show but hey are we gonna move on and evolve or are we gonna die like the dinosaurs?

The game needs a fresh new look which I think you will see in the near future, because of the standalone being implemented there is a lot more that can be done with it. But also I think you will see if we run newer map pools we will see games that become a lot tighter between the newer players and the older ones that show for cash LAN events. If I had money I would test my theory but alas I don't but if I ever win the lottery trust me I will :)

I think a lot of the reason why the newer players don't show for events also, is because well we have all these old school players showing up as well. But unfortunately we are catering to them instead of trying to keep the playing field fair. How do you do that well you toss the old school maps for newer ones and have only maybe one or two really old maps.

The goal as a tournament organizer is to offer a fair playing field to all players who want to come. There is a lot of different variables that have to be taken into consideration and to be honest what I think the main one that we focus on is what the viewers want to see not what the actual players that are coming to the tournament want to play.

Major events like QCON and DHW are planned months in advance and they are announced even earlier, players begin seriously training for these events 1-1.5 months before hand. The best alternative I think would be to have the signups 2-2.5 months in advance, after the players have been determined then each player can submit their own 7 maps or whatever the format is for maps. The top maps picked by the players in the actual event would determine the map pool. Then tbh I think we would truly see an amazing event.

Just my thoughts :)

no

There is some truth in your words. However, tossing in a lot of new maps would lower the overall quality of competition. It would even out the playing field by lowering the standards, which is sub optimal.

My ideal case would be having a healthy mix of new maps with old ones. Giving a small edge to newer players. Yet it would be a major victory only if a new star managed to beat an old on well established maps. Otherwise there will be massive whine that 'oh he only won because of gay map pool etc' and his victory would be partially discredited.

The problem is a little circular. Old maps are played so much making it hard for new maps to be added to map pools, which maybe discourages the efforts of map makers if they put in weeks of work to never see their map being played. Also new maps should only be added on grounds of being good, not purely because it's new. For example, Cure for me is not very enjoyable, I don't feel a good flow on the map be it playing myself or watching it in tourneys. Silence came and went... Again it is a circular problem where the cause and effect are greatly overlapped.

And going on a tangent I think Duel is a great competitive platform but not a game mode that could ever be overly mainstream and popular. I think it has too much 'ladder anxiety' to capture a wider audience. If you are faced with the options of victory or defeat as the only incentives to play, you might be slightly put off after a few losses. The game/mode is almost too competitive for it's own good. It needs maybe richer achievements or ... unlockable hats and pink shaft, to reward the player just for playing the game, yet not taking anything away from the competition.

Thus I think the team modes are more fun to play as they have more of a social and in turn fun aspect.

Not that any of this is relevant to the topic. But how does adding new maps lower the quality of the competition? I understand your point that new maps need to be introduced slowly into tournament map pools but that doesn't in any way justify having 10 year old maps in the pool.

The only logical reason to not have new maps in the pool is if there's a lack of GOOD new maps. And imo this whole belief that older maps like ztn and dm13 are somehow magically better than newer maps is mostly because they've been around so long that everyone's figured out how to play them well so the subtleties can actually shine through.

Your tangent that duel is somehow not ideal for competition may seem logical but the success of the competitive sc2 (bw) scene clearly shows that it's not impossible to have a competitive scene based on a super hard 1v1 game with high skill caps (which is what quake is more or less). Which quake game mode is more audience friendly is an entirely different argument though.

Yeah we went on quite a tangent here.

What I meant to say that the way new maps are introduced in tournaments somehow seems a little prematurely at times. Like I Cure on qcon seemed a little biased towards Europeans where it was played more and the Americans seemed to have less experience with it.

I think a model like bw had with kespa was quite nice. That the league worked directly with map makers. It guaranteed the maps would definitely be played in the league and it set a high standard for the mappers to perfect them by trial and error with help of top players. Also the maps were announced early and everyone had a high incentive to practice them because it was certain that they would be played on.

Sc2 I think is much more newbie friendly and also came out with a single player campaign and all in all has a more casual appeal. BW is just like the old quakes, it was hard and challenging but it was an era when you expected it from a game.

Audience friendly- I think Duel is a clear winner. It is much easier to understand than CTF or TDM because you see 'all' the action and don't need good game knowledge to understand and fill in what the other 7 or 9 players are doing to get the context of what is going on.

im not sure sc2 is more newbie friendly than quake. it appears that way for multiple reasons imo. first ofc is the fact that they hit the numbers that makes match making feasible. if sc2 had similar numbers to quake and bronze/silver leaguers ended up playing platinum+ players on the ladder, it would be equally shit cos theyd just get raped (this happens to me a lot when i play unranked since im a super casual sc2 player in silver/gold but it matches me sometimes with plat/diamond players).

the other main reason is that sc2 is PACKAGED well. it has a great single player storyline, and it has easily accessible custom games. if u compare that to q3 which had the same sort of richness in mods, but it wasn't packaged. u had to find, download and install mods etc.

when i got sc2 i jumped into some games and without any practice or knowledge i was able to win games right away.

because you were playing other total newbs?

exactly. that is what i mean by newbie friendly.

and yet it is equally as competitive as quake duel no? So what I was trying to say was that ladder anxiety in duel is not really a big factor, or at least it wouldn't be if you had the player numbers which ensured good match making.

the reason why team modes seem less tense is because most team games are pickups. if we had a ton of clans playing each other, you'd have the same amount of anxiety because you'd see a lot of clans get raped.

It is competitive sure. SC2 covers a full spectrum of players from newbies to high level pros.

I would, however, argue that team modes have inherently less anxiety to them. And your example is comparing regular duel to competitive clan matches, which is hardly equivalent.

I think team modes (even FFA) have a few points that make them more accessible over 1v1.

The biggest point being a social factor. Playing together is much more relaxed fun than playing versus. The proof of that is the explosion of co-op games over the last 5 years or so. Just think of all the l4d, killing floor and other co-op zombie shooting games and other co-op's in general. It has proven to be a huge formula of success. Ofc, zombie shit trends a lot now, but I think a lot of it is because of the social aspect of the games.

And that translates partially to any team mode that is not strictly co-op.

Another point for team modes it let's you learn not only from loosing but by example set by your team mates. It takes a lot of character to brush of every loss in a duel game as a learning experience and dissect your play and find flaws and find ways to rectify them. In a team mode (esp. round based like CA) you get to watch and learn from the best players.


There are rumors going around on QL2.0 and some other new competitive FPS's in development. I really hope that none of them will overlook the social aspect of the games.

I would put even matchmaking under a vaguely social feature.
Have a very strong clan/friend system. Like now in quake the clans are kind of weak. To interact with your clan mates you have to add each and everyone individually as a friend and can talk to them one to one. You should really have some sort of alternative friend list for clan mates or integrated chat channel or something.

Maybe tie in the forums directly into the game such that you build the community in the game not around it.

There are probably more ideas that could enhance the social aspect of the game. And it sort of comes at a free cost in the matter that it doesn't require to dumb down the game or make any concession but it would certainly help the end of the spectrum where players are much more casual and are looking more for fun than fierce competition. It could cater both perfectly.

Jesus fuck I write a lot and go on some long shit. sorry.

Did you watch or play WoT? It's just a pile of randomness. Even fucking lolLoL is better.

I played a tiny weeny bit. Not enough to get down to the core of the game. I watched mostly a friend play.

Why is it so random? Because of the armor system? Like hitting lucky critical points or having a random chance of bounces or penetrations etc?

I don't know what in this game isn't random ; )
You always have HUGE recoil so you NEVER know where your bullet will hit. Damaging modules/crew member is random. Damaging anything is random because of the recoil and probably some other randomnesses.
There are weakspots but it's not like you can hit them relying on aim only (you know, randomness).

Fights are dull because you gain great advantage by sitting behind the building and wait for someone to come. In pub games every game looks like that:
1. Come on motherfuckers! I will crush you NOOBS!
2. No one comes...
3. Wait
4. Fuck that I'm going \m/
5. Get rekt
15vs15 and everyone has this mindset ;) I don't know how it works in "pro" matches but come on...
It's similar to LoL fights when champions are low on health. You can kill someone easly but you can die on one hit. So you just keep dancing in the back and forth hoping something will happen. Then random things occurs and you either survive with 1 HP (then you are biggest pr0 in the world) or you get fucked by someone who has 1HP left (you are 800ELO feeder, go suck a dick).

I don't buy it :E

kwuaklif <3

lal winning all ql and shitmania tournaments wouldn't even secure you minimum wage.

rapha better off getting a job at McD's

It's still not considered as a stable job, I doubt it will one day. Making the games however :D.

Annual minimum wage in Russia is 1,572 euros...

You are probably right but how this info is related to the post? The only guy who won money and is from Russia is evil and he lives in Moscow - that city is quite expensive and sallaries are much bigger accordingly.

it's relevant as Vium didn't specify a country and russianz are still eligible for future tournaments

>and russianz are still eligible for future tournaments
As in evil and cooller who are both from Moscow? :D (yeye pavel could place top and I'd be happy if he did, but let's be realistic)

alright then, Cypher - the minimum wage in Belarus is slightly lower than Russia

Can't argue on that one :)

Sure it would. A normal salary in sweden is 20 000 SEK / month, and that is basically what winning all the QL tournaments alone will secure you. Minimum wage in sweden would translate to about 18 000 USD / year. So yes, it would secure you much more than minimum wage.

Denmark doesn't even have "minimum wage". You have a kind of negotiated minimum which is different depending on where you work. Your average "minimum wage" is about 19 USD/hour and that is way more than most countries. So it's not really fair to compare your salaries to the rest of the world. Also, since things are generally more expensive in Denmark than the rest of the world those 19 USD/hour would be proportionally (to the cost of living) much lower than it sounds.

thx for reconfirming my argument with that wall of text.

Thanks for posting this. I'm the lead writer with ProGamingTours and I'm keen on doing some QuakeLive content, being a Quake player myself.


It's been a while since I did anything related to Quake apart from this interview with evil http://www.progamingtours.net/quakelive/interview-with-evil/

Good to hear that, looking forward to your material. You don't post much at ESR at all, remember you were quite active in ~09-10 hehe

Yeah, that's when I started working with Duskbin eSports and became less active on ESR. Kept coming back here whenever Trance or someone else tweeted. I remember being in talks with Vedic about doing some joint content but that thing never materialized.


Good to see you around :)

that site is kinda misleading
http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1869-o...z-santiago
http://www.in2lol.com/en/news/13089-ocelote-t...ros-a-year

and he's not even the best player by far

The first link includes just tournament winnings, the second also money from sponsors, merchandising etc. Its impossible to make a true list because most of the players wont disclose their real earnings.

I kinda disagree because they don't tell you how much cut went to the organization running the team, how much tax was deducted, etc. Well, neither do we maintain that info because it's after all a closely guarded secret.

just saying that this kind of rankings is pointless imo, the abyss between mobas (LoL mostly) and ql is even bigger than what is shown

never even heard of WoT/SMITE

u WoT m8

6 tournaments?

lol where?

i believe it's moscow lan, quakecon, prague, dreamhack, sydlan, russia cup

I think they also include online tournaments, seeing FACEIT as one and 125 FPS as one. Not sure though. Maybe Cyn1c can elaborate.

dhw qcon prague moscow

i lack 2 events so maybe ur right with online leagues

Yep, the idea was to have 125 and FaceIt cups becoming a regular on the tournaments list. We actually approached them to directly create tournaments within our system but we didn't have a payment gateway to manage prize pools back then.


I don't wanna give excuses but I failed to keep up after being stretched over a number of esports. Any missing tournaments can still be added though.

casual is the new pro

dam cod beat us with their 1 event lAL

QuakeCon alone was $24,000 and DreamHack Winter was $15,359, a total of $39,359 for two tournaments.

True, also don't forget about 125 FPS league, 1000$+ each month for a whole year.

Yes, we do have DHW and QuakeCon added to the list but it's the 125fps leagues that are still not added

http://www.progamingtours.net/tournament/quakecon-2013-ql-duel/


http://www.progamingtours.net/tournament/drea...r-2013-ql/

Is FACEIT added? Otherwise I can let you know how much we paid out over the year.

That would be of great help.

I typically only track LANs, but I'd love to add 125 FPS and FACEIT to my prize payout wiki if you guys want to send me over your official prize givings.

That's a great wiki. I'll try to add all the past LAN's starting from 2010 onwards to the QL listing unless they don't already exist in our db.

Wow that is awesome Sync talk about a great resource for info on Quake players in Quake Live.

Cool, although as SyncError said QCon prize pool was 24k$, not 18 :)

Yep, I noticed the Clan Arena division was not added. Thanks! Will take care of that.

If for QL online prize money is included the same should be done for all the others. The difference will likely increase with mobas.

But most importantly though I have no info on this part, I can't believe shootmania only had 1 event all year and that it paid less than quake. Also, one would think there must have been more than one event for ghosts as it was a big release.

Yes, I'm going to add a lot of tournaments in the next few days. Will also keep checking the scheduled listings from ESR to keep such mistakes from happening in future.

Personally I prefer events only because it's easier, realistic to track.

The thing is consistency across the board.

Yep, but as stubborn as I am along with the owner of the site, rest assured we'll hit precision sooner or later. :P

5 Million is nothing next to what riot actually made with this game

http://www.progamingtours.net/league-of-legen...3-revenue/

maybe writer needs to check revenue vs profit definitions

i'd like to know how much of that money goes into servers and other shit...

wow, that's huge. First place is some korean cs-clone called crossfire.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

$5,270,955 :)

Quake Live tournament list is such a fail.
PS: but there is my tourney in it \o/ :D

considering the quakelive graph from that site, adding ALL the cups would just make it look worse : D

Earnings graph is overwhelming.

If you dismiss the games which will most likely fade and not be around for a long amount of time, Quakelive moves up to 6th, which is not bad at all, and especially impressive when you consider that QL is one of only 2 duel games on the list.

The only games I see fading away in the top 10 are halo and cod and possibly world of tanks, but you have hearthstone and the many clones its going to bring replacing them. Forgot we haven't even seen blizzards dota game yet either which will be huge.

blizzards moba looks kinda fail, dawngate looks ok (EAs one) World of Tanks has been around for ages, they have a massive playerbase, probably the largest outside of the moba titles.

the fuck is a moba

All those franchises will die long after quake does :P

Given that the basic mechanics of Quake Live differs very little compared over the years when Quake 3 was the boss of tournaments and over 6 years in the game (Quake Live) it still makes it in the charts it feels quite heartwarming to see that there is much love for the game. Respect to all that make it possible.

On a different note - CS:GO shows that a refresh and a huge spine filled with cash can revive a game and make it popular again. Shootmania predictably failed, because it had nothing going for it. I would love to see how long LoL will last and top the chars. Anyone knows how long this game is existing now?

LoL was releaded in October 2009

lol

read an interview with one of the founders of riot games (guys who make it) it's pretty awesome the way they want to bring you a game - if only other developers did the same.

Their growth is kind of amazing too

2010: 4.2m daily players
2011: 12m daily players
2012: 32.5m daily players

snipit from interview:

"And guess what else? Most game businesses focus on metrics like ARPU (average revenue per user) and try to build their entire companies and organizations around optimizing for driving to a sale (think Zynga). We do the OPPOSITE.

We train our entire company to drive towards ENGAGEMENT. Meaning, MAKE COOL SHIT and deliver VALUE and if people PLAY enough because they love what we do, then they will WANT to spend money. Our focus is entirely different."

http://tinyurl.com/trynda-interviewed - other stuff is mainly about LoL

tbh he sounds like a retard. Just the usual marketing semantics. Besides from what I am hearing they're actually behaving the way he describes zynga.

from what you're hearing? League of Legends is totally free. You don't need to spend any money it is purely opt in. The only thing you 100% have to spend money on are vanity items like skins.

This is the same thing that has happened in CS:GO and one of the big reasons it is taking off, imo, is the micro transactions are going well but they are not needed - people do it because they really enjoy the game itself and it enhances their experience.

And if this guy sounds retarded yet has managed to build up the biggest eSports focused game to date then like I've said, it's a shame there are not more retards like this developing games I personally would much prefer to play (LoL is not one of those games for me)

sowwy merl but the other guy is totally correct.

riot used the rising market of moba's by giving what people wanted. for free. so they basiclly fullfilled demand for mobas.

even if the game had no microtransactions it would still make profit because of its market value of most played moba game.


talking about creating value not revenue is pure marketing, because in semi-modern management theory making value is equal to revenue.

And yet millions of players will play the game, never spending any money because they have that choice.

The " riot used the rising market of moba's" comment I don't get either, the reason mobas are now the trend is purely down to what riot have achieved with league of legends, they didn't fulfill a demand or ride a trend - they spearheaded it.

as i said: they make monies by just existing, because of brand value.

no no no.

dota1 started the trend, then there were multiple clones: BC, HoN, LoL. LoL won the race, but didnt "spearheded" the demand.

dota didnt start the trend, they were an earlier moba which LoL devs/owners played (afaik) but it wasn't a trend (if it was the moba influx would have been 2003-2005 not 2013), if wasn't massively successful, although it did have success.

HoN was the first real success I guess, but the model to play was what held it back. They were perhaps what brought a big demand for mobas but one that was far more accessible would always have more success.

EA/Blizzard are only developing mobas because of the success of League of Legends and by success I mean the amount of money they have made. This is what those companies will see as success, but for me that is just a bonus for what they have achieved which is a lot more for the wider eSports scene tbh.

dota2 would probably have come out but without LoL I doubt it would have been free and I doubt HoN would have gone ftp either.

do you srsly suggest there was moba like game before dota w3 mod, which basiclly did invent the genre?

No idea, Im sure they had their inspiration from somewhere though as everyone does. But now you are arguing who made the first moba, not what was the main title behind the trend.

For instance, Starcraft is the most successful RTS right now and ever I guess, but they were not the first. A lot of other games were made in that format because of Sc2 and a lot of people were drawn into RTS games etc in eSports and so on because of Sc2. Same with mobas and LoL.

Actually the inspiration behind all moba's is wc3:ft which had "free" heroes, not assigned to any race, which you could hire on mp maps.

it obviously was continuation of merging RTS and RPG, which was part of wc3 mechanics in the first place[paladin arthas was a feget]

ow, and almost all of riot employes played DoTA.

Im not arguing the moba origins, LoL didnt make the first moba it just made the one that was extremely successful and made a few other massive developers make a moba. (EA & Blizzards upcoming moba titles, for instance)

Their success has made this moba influx happen. I dont think it will be a problem unless these companies go all in dota2 is doing a great job as they have realised the massive gap they have had in their titles due to LoL success - it has even seemingly gone over to CS:GO which is having great success now compared to 6months/year ago.

The first extremely successful moba has to be dota1. It was insanely popular in it's time more than cs even, just like LoL but earlier.

Also if you know how LoL started you know it essentially is a dota clone, not only of the same genre or a inspiration but a clone of that game in particular.

LoL eclipses all other games though, all genres - doesn't matter if they didn't come up with the game type or they weren't first, CS didn't come up with FPS for instance nor Sc2 with RTS - it is just the most successful and the main reason behind the moba trend right now (and the next couple of years with EA&Blizzard titles on the way).

Other eSports titles are taking note, CS:GO has a lot of micro transactions (completely optional vanity type) as well as Starcraft 2 having a lot of its MP go f2p. This is good for future eSports titles if they do the same purely because it creates a better infrastructure from fans to pros.

At the time in terms of popularity the equivalent of LoL were dota1 and WoW, both of the same universe actually. Also LoL isn't leaps and bounds over all the rest, as you can see from other games' sells and people playing.

The hype LoL receives from people that weren't at the time is a bit too much because:
1. The moba genre was immensely popular before LoL was released and before it became successful (two different periods). The trend existed at the time of its release and before it became popular, when everyone tried to create a new dota1. The trend wasn't because of LoL.
2. Gameplay wise LoL is a dota clone. It really isn't debatable, and it's not a relationship of "everything must be a quake clone then" because LoL's origins are straight from dota itself in every single developing and gameplay aspect. Actually it is one of 3 but the other two are even more close to it, which are HoN and dota2, which further proves the point of dota's massive influence and that it's over LoL's (is there a LoL clone?).
3. That business model existed before the game.
4. Eventually dota2 will catch up or get close.

Microtransactions will be considered good for mainstream players (the 99.9%) until they realize they are spending more than they used to, receiving less content, that it leads to simpler and easier games so they are more accessible, the game is never finished and that updates-based development ends up in inferior products over time.
For "e-sports" (0.01% of players) this means less complex games, more bugged, that change all the time which isn't great for increasing and comparing skill levels, that constant updates mean never great game balance, that in order to stay competitive it is needed to spend money on the game because of content being constantly released, and in the end they'll realize they would have been better off still playing the overall better games they are based on. For example anyone that played at good level league of lolers knows it's all about abusing the flavor of the month and the current meta, which is way, way easier and duller than dota.

1. "The trend wasnt because of LoL" those games being released were based on love of mobas, not an actual trend of games based on mass popularity, money etc. that trend (and the reason EA and Blizzard are bringing out mobas) was started by LoL, people want to get in on the money train.

2. I don't get this comment, it really isn't even part of the argument and only boils down to the childish semantics that some dota and lol players like to get into about the games. I dont class myself as a player of either game, I watch both more than play and enjoy that.

3. I'm sure it did, just LoL seem to have taken it to a new level (previously this sort of success would not have been thought achievable on a free to play game)

4. dota2 is catching up, it is making much bigger tournaments and bringing a lot of money to the pro scene and its great they followed in LoL's footsteps here (where LoL previously followed in theres, as you keep pointing out)

LoL has made a great impact on Esports as a whole that even small communities have profited from. Live streaming was made massively popular due to LoL players and the software available now, as mentioned by a casting friend of mine, would have cost close to $30k which everyone now has at their fingertips for $20. eSports did a terrible job at grand scaling things, even though the abilities of eSports pros, in any game title, are magnificent and something a very small percentage of players could hope to attain. LoL did their own thing and wanted to make their game like a professional sport, which they nearly have done. Having the world championships at the LA Lakers Staples Center for instance is a massive message to people who are not involved in eSports (media, sponsors, general populace) and this doesn't just help LoL it helps everyone in gaming weither intentional or not.

I am just glad LoL is a PC title :)

The inspiration was from the custom Starcraft map, Aeon of Strife. After RoC was released it was made for WC3 but only really took off when TFT was released with the better editor.

well yeah, that too.

I'm adding more tournaments to QL as I type this. Can't seem to find the brackets for Resp.su Russia Cup finals though. Can a kind soul hook me up please?

3 sec in google
http://resp.su/tournaments/view/336/scheme

Cheers!

qq

conclusion: quake leads to poverty.

Good...
...but still that ranking sux dix.

esport is not good anymore imo

Moba's are the Guitar Hero of esports. It's pathetic, and every serious moba player should be ashamed of themselves.

Not that bad for a 14-year old game.
Quake is a slow-dying beast.

*Never-dying beast

Tbh as en esports it's pretty much dead. Even winning everything gives you little to nothing compared to normal job. Ofc unless you live in the west.

As a casual game it will probably live as long as they pay for servers.

I no longer care about QL being mainstream esport game. I like it as it is now. Great game for casual playing but still competitive. In general my view of esport is to no necessary make it beneficial for anyone. It's good when people are just paid enough to go for LANs, but do other things for living.

tl;dr

work at taco bell for 3 months instead of tryina go pro in quake

or... do both.
c:?

I'm pretty sure overall QL's lifespan form 2008-2014 should of been included

It's a ranking by year. If you did that with QL, you would have to do it with the others as well.

Wow, that's quite an eye-opener. Never thought that there are so many (stupid) games with huge prize pools. Never heard of SMITE as well...

remember how thresh won a ferrari...

Really hoping CS continues to grow :)

Some of you have crossed over into moba/tween-wave. I wanted to ask you, what does it feel like being a prostitute? Mobas are literally designed to be so easy and stupid that anyone can play them. They are the idiots version of warcraft3. As someone who has not sold-out, it's curious to me how it feels to completely abandon one's dignity and integrity.

how did you manage to escape from The Columns?