dont worry, at the moment its not an issue(comps not that fast) but as far as future im sure there'll be a mod or something to uncap it..

If we assume that Q4 will perform similar to Doom3, then many (if not most) ppl here will be able to get above 60fps average, especially with some tweaking.

I'd say 'comps' are indeed fast enough for more then 60 fps already.
So pretty disappointing, if they really cap it at 60fps. :/

As for making some 'mod' to remove the cap, I doubt that can be easily done, unless it's in a patch from the devs themselfes.
Something like that is stuck deep inside the code, simply removing the cap with a hack of some sorts could more than likely result in stuff like interuption to/from the server-to-client, and even make ppl with more fps jump higher than ppl with lower fps, which is something Q3 will be familiar with already.
I guess a cap is ok, if it's really needed, but not at 60fps ffs :<
100 is more like it.

'Something like that is stuck deep inside the code, simply removing the cap with a hack of some sorts'

another satisfied showdown pr0 user.

ROFL :D

One does not simply walk into A GAPING VAGINA THE SIZE OF A HALLWAY

/me wonders if there's any 4channers here

The answer is no.

Regarding the q4 hack, zOMG TORRENT PLZ?

ROFL!

im pretty confident it wont be an issue, id/raven, in their press conference, expressed their cooperation with the community, said they'll reallyl try to make us happy. we'll see if they walk the walk

Yeah, but you'll notice they didn't say which community. Maybe they were talking about the CS community... think about it. Scope on the over powered machine gun? That sure as hell doesn't sound like the quake community to me.

BOOM, headshot!

the bug, which allows strafejumping etc. was already found in 1.27 by id, thus its not a problem anymore and it wont be dependant on fps in future games what speed you can move at.

I'm pretty sure it's refering to game ticks or packet updates, not renderer fps.

That's what half the people here said one year ago about Doom 3... it's most likely still capped.
In d3 you have com_fixedtic for that;

com_fixedTic [-1,0,1] - If set to 0 (the default) Doom 3's ticrate is capped at 60FPS, meaning the game framerate cannot exceed this, except when running a timedemo. If you want to remove this cap, set com_fixedTic to -1. Setting it to 1 removes the cap, but causes the game physics to go out of sync. Removing the FPS cap doesn't necessarily improve performance, and can lead to more variable framerates.

(TweakGuides.com)

This only works in SP. I believe either settings cause problems in MP or they wouldn't make it a protected cvar there.

And how do you suppose to be able to interpolate rendered frames between physics ticks? :) durr

hate 85 fps?

Yes, I hate being stuck at 85fps, when my PC is capable of at least twice that, is that so strange?

And yes, I *do* feel and see the difference between 85 and 120 fps, let's not get into a long, silly discussion about this.

well if u feel the difference.... :/ (dout it) :) ha

Yes, I do - and so do at least half of every1 reading this. Quit trying to derail the topic of this post.

yeah am really trying to derail the post, first thing on my mind.. fs chill out, go take ur pills geek, am gone :/

,,I,,

and ya mum

haha that sucked

You sucked.
One cannot really feel a difference between 60 and 100 game fps.Your monitor will refresh the screen by putting the same frames from the game. CRT refresh rates are different and more important in this case than simply game fps.

And if your computer is so incredibly fast than turn on AA and AF.

,,I,, <--- that sucked, fuckwit

I feel a drop from 125 to 110.

a drop is a drop, stable fps is another thing.

when im at certain places I have 67"stable" fps and it lags? :o

in q3 ye.
the thing is, games that are built to run at 60 fps run just as smooth as games that are built running 125.

not qw at 72 fps tough..

?
runs perfectly?

no.. if you run (jump) really fast "glitches" appear in the walls/floors.

that's probably fuhquake, yeah?
i don't know what fps that mod is all about and i don't know if it makes sense in this certain discussion but fuhquake is fps-dependant movementwise (apart from ezquake)

lol

?

You are mistaken m8

if you ever get the chance to visit sweden, pm me and ill show you ;)

I don't have to - I already know you are either full of shit or mistaken ;)

that really hurt :(

I'm sorry :(

<3

<3 \o/ <3

Get a clue.

Get a life.

The difference is obvious if your screen refreshes higher than 85hz.

And if it doesn't, the difference isn't there.

I don't know where I read about it (maybe slashdot once), but it seems there are a lot of misconceptions about monitor refresh rates versus FPS. I don't know what is really the truth, all I know is my own experience.

Having played at 85 fps for well over 2 years in Quake 3 (with a 85Hz refresh rate), moving up to 125fps (again, 85Hz), there was a very noticeable difference.

I don't think 60fps will be BAD, but in Doom3 I can around 55fps on medium quality with shadows and effects and all that stuff turned on, and my computer is going to be 2 years old this fall. I just don't see why it would be necessary to put a cap on the game when the top of the line computers nowadays would be capable of surpassing that by a large margin.

Every time the monitor refreshes, it takes the latest frame it gets from your gfx card.
85hz and 85fps doesn't mean they are synched, tiny drops in fps will change the timing. This timing between each frame getting displayed, is what causes the different feel at the exact same displayrefresh. That's how it works when you're not using vsync.
Increase to 125fps, reduces the latency to 8ms between each frame. You'll actually "feel" the game is more responsive. Also because each frame will contain more recent mouseinputs. That's the truth.

And especially q3, fps dependent physics is a third reason.

In simple words: you wont be able to feel difference in Quake 4 between 60 and 85 or 125 or even 200 fps because every "bonus frame" will be identical to one of already rendered "key" frames (and those "key frames" are capped at 60 fps)...

So plz quit whining, thx.

qw? :(

Better to have a FPS cap than let guys with a million FPS have advantages...

yea, but have the cap higher

Yeah a 90-100 cap would be more appropriate

Exactly.
Btw, is D3 really capped at 60?
I haven't bothered to install it only to check this.

yes it is :(

But it's still pretty smooth stable 60fps

125cap for the win.

well.. its called tweaking!

ut noobs

bah who cares i cant get over 25.

IIRC it's something to do with physics and Carmack wanting to make sure the same movement on differenet machines produce the same motion. Someone with a clue post please ;[

I hope that's the case, FPS dependant physics are stupid.

Not movement, but animations run at 60FPS IIRC. I don't think he saw a need for more FPS than stuff in the game runs at. I might be wrong of course.

Well, it is pretty simple.

Basically, the FPS-Cap is internal only and not visual. You can still have your visual fps at 120, but the internal physics are capped at 60.

thats what they said about doom 3 and then it was really capped at 60 fps...

What difference does it make if the game is only running at 60 and you can still set your refresh rate independently?

god knows

Are you kidding me? No, wait, are you visually impaired?

Have your screen Hz at 125. Set com_maxfps to 125 in Q3. Do a turn. Now try the same with com_maxfps 60 and tell me there's no difference.

Err yeah... I'm talking crap :]
It didn't seem that bad in Doom 3 but I think I was happy just to be able to get 60fps.

Thats Q3, because Q3s tic rate is FPS dependant, thats why someone with 75 125 etc.. frames can jump higher/wider then other players with lower FPS. Carmack wanted to eliminate this thus he locked the engine at the following:

In the Doom 3 engine the physics (movement and all) are rendered 60 ticks a second it's pretty much the same as 60FPS. So when the game calculates everything at 60 ticks, theres no point having 120FPS, because every 2nd frame will be a duplicate of the parent one = rendering same frames = no point or why would you render the same image twice? Just so you can see 120FPS in the top right corner.

All in all 60 FPS is pretty playable just like 125FPS in Quake3 if there is no hardware laging like HDD reading etc, but it's the same with 125FPS.

arQon solved that problem in CPMA 1.1.

pmove anyone?

Please try the test described in my post. If you can't tell the difference, consider yourself blind.

I don't want to see 120fps in my screen corner, I want to see 120fps on my screen. I thought that much was obvious.

And yes, arQon did fix it - without imposing a frame cap.

Get it into your head. When you have 120 FPS you actually have 60 doubble frames in the D3 engine. And yes, that means the 120FPS on the top left corner is just for watching, and does infact improve squat. You still move/turn/jump/shoot at 60tics = 60FPS, even if the top right cornes say 120FPS. No point arguing. Everything that is above 60FPS in trash for the render and you GFX card, and might even slow down you experience.

If you would increase the tick rate, lets say, if you set com_maxFPS 120 and the tick would rise to 120, there would be a difference, but it'll be pretty much the same as Q3 piece of crap, regarding this issue, or even other issues might arise.

There's no point comparing it to Q3, because as said above Q3s' tick rate is bout to the FPS. I don't have the exact numbers, but whit a stable tick rate Q3 would look quite smooth on 60FPS.

Btw Q3's tickrate is defined by sv_fps. Which is a fixed value on the server.

Exactly.
You shouldn't be worried about game fps, since you still can adjust your monitor refresh rates.

Dude, just because I can set my monitor's refresh rate at 140Hz, doesn't mean a FPS game is actually playable at 5-7fps. IMO, anything under 30fps is not playable - especially not in fast paced games like Quake.

Are we talking about fps under 30 dawg?

Tuesday.

In the fantasy world of mine there is no cap. The game runs identical as how it should run on all refreshrates. And you can check your Lunargästbok inside the game while waiting for the RA to spawn.

You are the one!

rofl, you win

It's all in stability... Halo plays at 30 fps and that community doesn't seem to care much.

It's playable especially on the TV, but 60FPS is really smooth already :)

halo sucks thats why

What community? :> j/k

Halo is a lot slower than a game like Q3/4 - so lower fps is more acceptable in Halo, I reckon.

Yeah, they all suck too much to know the difference anyway probably if they're using a fucking analog stick to aim :P

I dunno, 60 fps.. whatever. If the gameplay's good I can deal with it being a tiny less smooth than normal I guess (that is, if I upgrade in time.. if not.. gg 20 fps max for me)

sooo.. motion blur, anyone?

15

who cares? learn to play without 1000fps maybe... being able to play through any condition is a universal skill


i'd say honestly i'd prefer it to be capped higher (maybe 120 like q3's standard), but i don't see it being that big of a deal. There are bigger issues to worry about q4 on

Yes, Quake 4 will have a upper limit of 60 FPS. There seems to be some confusion on what this means, so I'll try to clarify:

Ingame framerate will be a maximum of 60 FPS. This is consistent with any game that uses the Doom 3 engine. The 60 FPS cap was hardcoded and cannot easily (and probably will not) be changed. This has nothing to do with monitor rates; all monitor refresh rates will be allowed. For those who are able to hit the cap, it is recommend to use vsync (which is a triggered refresh after every rendered frame) or to use a rate which has a divisor of 60 (60hz, 120hz) for the smoothest gameplay.

To quote John Carmack: "The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is."

What is disappointing is that many Q3 mods have developed ways to combat the FPS-dependant physics issues without capping players' FPS.

John C's point is more about interpolating frames between these physics ticks. To do so with any alternative approach would add (1000/60) a 16ms lag to movement and rendering, which would be very noticable.

However, Q4 game is not based on purely on the D3 physics, but as Todd said 'a more robust version of it'.

The reason for the 60fps was that the game was synchronous in MP. In comparison, if Q3 had been synchronous netcode we'd have run at 20fps (remember the sv_fps default?). The reason for needing synchronous netcode is mostly because of the per-poly collision detection and using 60fps is the highest acceptable given factors like server CPU use, and netcode bandwidth.

With this in mind you should remember that movement and netcode is now based on a Q3 base. There is no per-poly, and things are back to as they were with hitboxes. The netcode has been completely re-written.

With that in mind you cannot infer simply because it is using D3 rendering, that the limit is still in place. Of course it might be, but there is no logical reasoning to say it is for sure.

Maybe the 60 fps cap will be there for sp but not mp.

I'm pretty sure that Q3 interpolates between the snaps. And you get them 20 times a sec, so you always see something that's at least 50 ms old (or nowadays, a little lower with sv_fps 30 servers).

100% wrong hemo :)
gaz

Post some explanation you tit then :p

Thank you for clearing this up, Ironson.

I did not know that vsync is actually recommonded for D3/Q4. In other games I've played it's best to have it off, due to mouse lag issues.

I'm more worried about it not being opengl but directsucky3d

For rendering, It cannot be direct3d. Doom3 is an opengl engine, for them to have re-weritten it to use direct3d would have been an enormous task. John Carmac was a major anti-direct3d person, he never made any of his games to use on it, of course for cross platformity too.

It might however have an extension to use directinput for input like quake3 does.

my bad then. I feel better now! tho :)

I'm pretty sure it will stay capped @ 60

At least I don't have to upgrade :)

My thoughts exactly.
The 60fps cap news just saved me $1000 :)

I see there is alot of "stupid" going around...

is that what brings you here? :)

(UT2k4 is capped at 85fps online, I hate that)

Since when is UT2004 capped to 85 fps online? I play ONLINE with a decent ~130 fps. DesiredFramRate=what the fuck you want + netspeed 10001 = voila, haxor-fps.

woo

y cheat?

AFAIK UT04 is capped to 85fps only on some servers (ofc thru a server setting). Might be wrong, but I think those Demo servers were capped in this way to 85fps max.

has been a while tho, might be messing stuff up :)

well AFAIK you wrong, and Im a so called hardcore UT'er.

does anyone know if q4 runs slower or faster than doom3? I mean the average fps rate with equal processors, not the cap.

At the Quake 4 SP presentation at QuakeCon this year, Tim Willits said that if your computer runs DOOM 3 well, it will run Quake 4 well. I think he used a GeForce 6800 series card to showcase the game.

Source: Q4 SinglePlayer Preview & Q&A

Please stop whining about the "FPS cap" and wait for the game.

it's about the ratio, so 60*2=120 meaning you can use 120hz and have it run basicly as smooth as 60hz.

complete rubbish, you'd just be rendering the same frame twice each time.

exactly, the frames are synced.

By that reasoning, you could have 120 identical frames all rendered at 120Hz all synched and the game would look ok? Well no you'd have an effective 1fps.

1fps running at 120Hz is still 1fps

and in the same way,
60fps running at 120Hz is still 60fps

and similarly, if you had an incredible monitor that refreshed 6000 times a second,
60fps running at 6000Hz is still 60fps

I would say that the monitor refresh rate is only relevant when:
a) it's too low to keep up with frames being rendered on the PC
b) it's similar but slightly out of synch, resulting in tearing
c) it's too low so that you can feel it flickering (e.g. 60Hz)

so? 60fps won't look terrible unless tearing occurs which it won't at 120hz because you get 1 per 2hz. loads of qw'ers have switched to 150hz from 75hz for this reason. sure 120fps is better but it's not going to make any difference when everyone has 60fps limit. 60fps is more than playable. plus it allows lcds to be synced better (don't know lcd's that well but would have thought so), tvs and consoles can compete against pc players and as mentioned bellow, the netcode can be synced with the framerate. ofc the frames would be synced at 120hz!

Ok I think I misread your original point.

I think everyone did..?

Refresh rates are not the issue when it comes to the 60fps, and the 'rumour' about 60fps vs. 60Hz is a non sequitur given monitor refresh is completely unrelated. It's not as though Doom3's 60fps means we have to watch it at 60Hz.

His point just seems to be about syncing against image tear, (where multiples are appropriate) .. where at a higher refresh rate you cannot rely on vsync to prevent tear. Even so tear is only a minor annoyance compared to the other possibles here.

'the netcode can be synced with the framerate'

I think also he has misunderstood people talking about synchronous netcode (wrt. client and server), versus synchronizing rendered frames with physics ticks (implied by 'netcode').

The point here is that D3's heavy (per-poly/physics item/lighting) netcode required synchronicity between client and server. (c.f. with how Valve manage this under asynchronous code: http://www.valve-erc.com/srcsdk/general/multi...rking.html which relies on lag compensation). The use of hitboxes, and complete netcode re-write for Q4 implies they are moving to asynchronous code. (remember in Q3 the server ran at 20 fps, while the clients could run at any fps) D3's 60fps client-server trade-off represents a compromised halfway house, with the 60fps being more of a measure of the limits of bandwidth and cpu use. [You can of course say that Q3's 20fps was based on exactly the same reasons; the difference being that there was less drive to increase it since it wasn't limiting client fps].

Now, what's been said about Q4 MP:

Tim Willits: That's another great question. The multiplayer is based on the Quake III physical feel. You know, it's mathematically the same. As a developer, you don't want to totally change the way everything feels between multiplayer and single-player, but we felt that we really needed to do that in Quake 4, so when you play multiplayer it's totally different than single-player.

Perhaps this implies that the physics tickrate is different for MP and SP. Certainly with console (and sp) game developers often use a fixed number of frames per event rather than per second, even if marginal time-distortion occurs. For obvious reasons you wouldn't want this in MP.

id Software reasoned that they reached a good balance and compromise with Quake III Arena, and don't intend to deviate from the formula. One solid tidbit that was offered was that hitboxes are back, and there will be no more per-pixel hit detection, which will permit netcode to return to normal.

Todd Hollenshead: So we have kinda the Q3-style physics in the gameplay in multiplayer with sort of the more robust Doom 3 physics-technology that John Paul wrote for us.

Perhaps I am reading too much into these quotes, but the use of 'return to normal', to me at least, implies a return to asynchronous netcode and all that entails. Certainly aside from the rendering, the implication is that Q4 is a departure from D3 in terms of netcode, and physics (wrt. hit detection and movement). The fps cap seems arbitrarily low to remain for any other reason, not that any of us will have the hardware to better it for a year or two.

Sure, it's just as smooth, but when you consider 60fps not being smooth at all in the first place... well. :p

I wonder if the network update rate is sync'ed to frame rate ala QW. That would be a good thing since QW is way more responsive than Q3 (though OSP and CPMA come close).

In d3 it is. Which is actually a problem, because due to the amount of useless info transmitted over the network it's much easier to choke =)

back you nerds back i say!!!!!! =(

UT2k4 is _NOT_ capped at 85 fps...

BS. Yes it is, if you try that 10001 netspeed routine, you will get stuck/studder when you hit something like a stairway.
Yes, Epic TRIED to fix it. But even when server AND client allow the extra fps, it's still buggy.
So at the end of the day, it's still capped at 85fps, end of story.

Well, suite yourself ^^
I've never played with max 85 fps and im never going to either :P
You sit there and mope in your corner ;p

You can get all your frames you want, but you will be out of sync with the server.
Especially, if the server only allows 10k netspeed - and you have to do "netspeed 10001" in the console. Than you'll REALLY be out of sync.
But you might just have been gotten used to it by now, thinking it's a laggy server every time. :)

And if you're just a rocket/flak spammer, you'd never notice it anyway. It's very clear with LG etc.

what's the problem with 60fps cap, it can be "only" 60fps and still looking smooth :E

i agree whats the problem with 60 fps?

In q3 60 fps seems to impose a type of lag, but doom3 didnt seems to have this problem at all. Doom3 at 60fps feels just as smooth as q3 capped at 120 (runs at 125 for anyone still running a 125 cap).

The only down fall i can see is not being about to sync a 120hz monitor refresh rate with a nice 120 fps. Playing at 60hz refresh rate sucks.

I do remember reading somwhere that the fps cap and ticrate are tied in together and can be changed with a server side command.
60fps is just the defualt setting. Capping the frames per second at 60 until computer hardware can run the game at higher frame rates is a good way of evening the playing field. With little ill affect.

Problem with changing the tickrate, is it changes the game. Think timescale, only .. weirder. At least that was my experience with it in doom3.

precioussss mussssst be 120 fpssss

Hobby programmers can do FPS independant physics in their spare time, and id can't do it working full time? o_O

If its a constant 60FPS then who cares ,it will still have a silky smooth framerate.

Ok you are all retarded, the only difference between 30 FPS and up is how high your fps counter sits at. The simple truth is the human eye simply CANNOT see passed 30 frames a second, its physicaly impossible. The only difference is the imagined smoothness which isn't much at all anyway. Trust me, if you notice a difference in frame rate for 120 to 85 you need to get off the hasheesh and thizz and get your ass into rehab.

zzzzz not this tired old argument again.

Actually the average human eye can distinguish between 60-70 frames per second, I can’t watch TV cause the
Vertical draw lines give me a headache =\ was hard growing up

Dude, If you cant tell the difference between 30 and 120 fps theres something seriously wrong with you.

I can spot "jerkyness" up to a 90-100 fps. With vsync on.

Fighter pilots are required to recognize even higher "refreshrates".

no, you are retarded

Movies are with 29 fps arent they?

The two main differences are:

1) They add a huge amount of motion blur to compensate for the very low framerate.

2) You have no control over the camera so you don't feel the lag of the blur and low framerate.

>Movies are with 29 fps arent they?

Movies have 24fps, TV 25fps

I'll be happy if I'll get a stable 40 fps.

i like the 85fps in unreal cuz i do 1600x1200@85hz ehe

-Lsv

im happpy if i get 10 fps ;\ hope its tweakable like the other quake games ;D r_picmip 25 r_fastsky 1 etc

Please can someone help me !
I am a veteran multiplayer quaker and wish to change the refresh rate.
Can i do it via my config...?
I desire 120 hz and having played many many games at 120hz on this same monitor at 800x600 & 1024x768, I know it's possible.
Please help me


(seta r_displayRefresh "120" doesn't work)

Thanks in advance.

B-Boy

did you do a vid_restart after you set r_displayRefresh "120" in the console? worked for me.