One of the best demos i've ever seen on this map (on-line at least)
Gonna watch it now.

EDIT: Well i was.. but it gives me an 404 :>

this is DA best pt4 demo i ever seen until now :D

so bad Z4 lost but socrates just had a perfect rail :)

yep nice rail

Is there anywhere to find soc's POV only for this map? I hate followkiller but I love soc ;)

Crazy demo!

Vicious pummel skillz by z4.

Yeah, I think this is the best PT4 game I have ever seen. Btw, a very nice 4-hit-combo-pummel by ZeRo4 :)

btw, someone on gtv said this is the first time ZeRo4 lost on p-t4 ever.

i doubt that, z4 lost to unkind/cooller on it in wcg? or was that fata or some1 i cant remember :x

fatal beat him on tourney4, not pro-t4 :P.

lakerman did too

was talking about wcg2 or 1, t4 hasnt been played for about 2years :)

yeah... fatal beat ZeRo4 on QuakeCon and it was at pro-q3dm6.
Janne... it's possible :> I can't remember.
Anyways i was thinking that ZeRo4 will give up Q3 after he lose fatal on qcon, but i'm glad he didn't.

Zero4 lost 2 dm6's at QC, Q3t2 and ztn at wcg
first time, and i stess, PRO-q3tourney4

z4 lost to fatality, lakerman and others on T4 :)

he lost many other games, on every maps, but i can't remember a defeat on pt4 :)

yeah... I was talking about PRO-t4 =p

He lost on pt4 vs some K9 guy ( can't remember which one .. ) at the US WCG Qualifier ( for the first WCG ).

can't be.

pt4 wasn't out at the first wcg.

May be he lost a pt4 at the 2nd wcg qualifier (the one he won).

Err pt4 WAS out.
Looking for the link to the game he lost, I don't know how the K9 guy was called so it doesn't help..

zero4 didn't lose to anyone on pro-t4 @ the US quals for the 2nd WCG. he lost 1 map to K9-Spezzer on pro-q3dm6. score was 15-13 i believe. great game too (for the time it was played). Spezz came back from like a 0-5 start to win with a very solid rail streak. but as far as pro-t4 goes, this demo (vs socrates/reeb) was the first time z4 lost in major tourney play. at the US quals for the first WCG (battletop LA), he lost to fatality in a VERY exciting q3tourney4 game. back and forth til the last 2min where fatality eventually took over and won...something like 21-17. i highly recommend that demo as well. the last 2 rocket shots are especially nice. really put an exclamation point on the victory for fatality.

I really enjoyed watching the z4-soc games, especially after that sleeping-pill series fox-zamus ;)

Yea totally this new generation of swedish duellers fox and z4muz played the most negative set of games I have seen. They are so scared of engaging the enemy, I even saw z4mus waiting at tele on ztn with almost 200/200 for fox to turn up so he could run away and munch some more powerups.
The americans are far less inhibited and although I must admit I doubted z4 and soc after QCon and wcg, the level of play on a 60+ ping was simply stunning.

If you play as offensive as z4 or soc did against fox or zamus with ping 25 you'll get owned.

Boojum, u talk a lot of sense. the swedes style is very boring in comparison and imo, z4 and socrates would walk over the swedes with ease, whatever style the swedes choose to play.

Zamuz and other players with this gameplay don't play for you
they are playing to win.

yea obviously whats your point? it doesn't make it any less boring to watch.

but they are not playing for demos...
it's not a show, it's a game between 2 players...
you don't like that ? so, they'll not made some rocketjumps for posts like "SO NIIICE GAAAAAAME"
yes, it's (for you) not funny to watch. (i find "raildemos" funny, maybe it's "nothing new" on in, i can see tactics, ownage, timing etc... i have fun to watch this sort of demos...)
if you prefer cpm for "freak moves" cause you like to watch it, let pro player play this mod 1 year... we'll see the same posts as yourse
"boring demos, always the same game, rail+shaft combo, nothing new..."

the fact is that the american players have risen to such a level that unless they can use the rail to such a skill as seen by socrates in this level, they simply die. to whine on about how zamuz/fox play to win is simply stupid, if they were played on pt4 by the likes of z4/soc they would be annihilated. i think the reason they have to run so much is cos they are unable to make such high quality shots.

true... :)
"to stay alive" is a skill :p

yeah really nice game but not the best game ever on p-t4 ;)

zero4 has only been beaten by socrates in pt4 , a map which he has dominated for considerable amount of time.

but this is an awesome demo!!

must watch for all soc-z4 fans.

I think the demo ZeRo4 vs LeXeR on WCG2001 was better, but in that time duel gamestyle was different.

best game evah :]

[[

Q3 at its really best.

First VQ3 demo I've seen in months, and a good reminder why.
That even the best players in the country can't turn this into anything other than a sniping snorefest truly saddens me, and I pity those who think this is something to aspire to.

The pummel was great tho. :)

pfffft .... cpma is soooo boring

do not start cpma vs vq3 war... not here :>

He didn't, arQon did.

i was talking to all of you =]

cpma is shit, it has always been shit and will always BE shit.

:]

Eh, but who really cares. If there are people who think this is entertaining, then good for them. :)

CS isn't my thing, but obviously it's hugely popular. I just prefer Q3 to be, well, *not* CS...

(add)
Interesting to see the trolls come out of the woodwork when I post ANYTHING and try to make it about CPMA instead. So you can't hack it: so what? You don't have to get so defensive: plenty of other people can't either, but they don't all feel so insecure that they need to shitstir every chance they get to try and look hard. It's not like you're fooling anyone ffs.

This was simply an incredibly dull game. Accept it.

thats the biggest bullshit i ever heard, this was anything but a dull game. just cos u get outskilled in vq3 and u have rely on being able to jump round the maps like mad rabbit it doesnt give u the right to make your mouthy comments about stuff u know nothing about.

this demo is nothing like cs, its classic tense q3 game. i think your the one that cant hack it, obviously by having to move onto a mod =)

remember arqon likes to "speak his mind". That's why everything he types is moronic bullshit. The irony in his last post is hilarious though :) I do feel for him though - spending half his waking hours writing a mod 2 people play and everyone else laughs at.

Since you're one of the people who ADMITTED to not being able to hack it Quiff, I find it especially funny to see you commenting. :)

pld quiff :) i couldnt agree more, and dusto is right also :>

hahah n1 :>

Haha thats so true! =)

gr34t !!! [+] for that :)

Man, don´t be so agressive (Quiff & twist).

arQon did a lot for the community, even if only regarding a mod, it surely grew a lot with his touch!
You shoud stimulate people to contribute like he did, instead of criticising what he did...I mean, a lot of people like cpma, ZeRo4 himself does....
I agree with most of your points, but please, have some respect for other people´s hard work and dedication, mainly when it´s all done from spirit!

"I do feel for him though - spending half his waking hours writing a mod 2 people play and everyone else laughs at. "

Comments like this do SUCK!!!

BTW, download the demo, it´s really worth it!

If you're going to start "dissing" vq3 expect some backlash.
But to call this game boring is simply ignorant. This is one of the BEST games I have ever seen. And most people here agree. I recommend this for a download.

I just dl'd it again to make sure we're talking about the same game. It IS the one I saw yesterday, and I still think that it's incredibly dull.
Yes, the comebacks / lead changes (take your pick) leave the end result in doubt for most of the game, and THAT'S generally a fun thing to see, but the PLAY ITSELF is basically just a lot of CS'ing with hitscan weapons. Done extremely well certainly, but "really good hamburger" is still hamburger, not steak. Some people (lots of them apparently) find that interesting. I don't.

Contrast this with something like Mak v PowerK (or pretty much any demo from a couple of years ago) and you'll see a much more "complete" style of play. As it is though, "modern" T4 has gone the way of Q2: it's all rail and chain. You (in general, not you personally :P) wonder why people bitch about 15ms differences in ping and yet scream in denial when things like that are pointed out...

The only people bringing up CPMA are those who've failed at it and are still trying to blame that on the game rather than their inability to play it. The rest of us are talking about a specific VQ3 demo. It's absurd how some of those people feel so threatened by my opinion though. I kinda like that. :)

The only people bringing up CPMA are those who've failed at it and are still trying to blame that on the game rather than their inability to play it. - arQon

horseshit. I neither play vq3 nor cpma. I just enjoy watcihng both. Stop talking out of your ass.

Right Arqon, you have made a great mod for q3 with fast, fun action and i love the movement which i respect you for but you really do sound like an ignoramus.

As it is though, "modern" T4 has gone the way of Q2: it's all rail and chain.

I can't see that a fast lg/rail Combo in cpm is better than rail/chain.

To put that another way: if this is really "one of the BEST games you have ever seen" then you might want to spend some time in the demo archives, because this doesn't even make the "top ten T4 games", and probably not the "top three T4 games of Z4 or soc" either.

>This was simply an incredibly dull game. Accept it.

:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

That was a preety damn long smiley anyway.

omg, your first post:

"First VQ3 demo I've seen in months, and a good reminder why.
That even the best players in the country can't turn this into anything other than a sniping snorefest truly saddens me, and I pity those who think this is something to aspire to."

your second post:

"Interesting to see the trolls come out of the woodwork when I post ANYTHING and try to make it about CPMA instead. "

....

wt?

*#@#$@!@&&$%

Your post was not about "anything". It wasnt about AMD's newest graphic cards, or how you are working with Rhea on new netcode. It was about how vq3 was a "sniping snorefest". Gee, I wonder why people are bringing up CPMA when the lead programer (or whatever) of CPMA flames vq3. Especially when that programer has proven himself to be an elitist asshole who continuously passes off his opinions as undeniable facts.

You didnt expect flames? Well youd better expect them from now on, no matter what your post is about. Even if your post IS about AMD's newest graphic cards, expect flames about how CPMA sucks, because whenever I see or hear "Arqon" the first phrase that pops into my head is "IDIOT WHO DESERVES TO BE FLAMED". And Im sure Im not the only one.

hahah well said man very well said.

-Spang

So true about the way arQon trys to impose himself when he makes a popular mod or not so popular by saying things that are supposingly undeniable facts which are usually bullshit.

VQ3 will always be the most fun to play because that what Quake 3 and thats what made it so popular!

so I can't enjoy cpma more then vq3 because vq3 is the original thing?

No :)

You can enjoy what you wish however what I meant was vanilla Quake 3 will always be most enjoyable above all other mods because thats what made Quake 3 what it is today. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy cpma more, its just a matter of opinion on my part.

then say it's the most fun for you :f

try to play with a newbie on vq3.
try after that, cpma with the same newbie.

he will enjoy vq3 cause he can "understand opponents moves".

i've a lot of demos of vq3 and cpma.
my friends don't play q3 online, so, they are moving like
drunk chickens..

they look at ZeRo4 ? they love it. "so incredible rail !"
iff22 they don't realy like it. "too much placements :/"
and cpma "you can play with that moves ? how did it works , ouow, too hard, let it"
so, i think that vq3 is most popular than cpma, cause all cpma's players are q2players & q3players. and they are NOT newbies...
(maybe clan arena sometimes, but you can see that noob disconnected very fast :p)
cpma is a freak mod if you don't know how play q3 correctly, it's the problem of this mod.

Yes, i think that you can't like cpma without play q2 or q3 with strafejumps, doublejumps etc...

if you think i'm wrong, you can :) but i've just look on at friends reactions on small private LANs...

true, but saying vq3 is a better game because cpm is harder to grasp for newbies would be kinda strange imo :]

i've never said "better game", but "most popular' or most played...

Haha, I had written down this post to say almost exactly the same, thing, and I even took the time to register with the site just to post it since I was so surprised by Arqon's behavior. You already said it for the most part, but just for the record, I was going to say:

[selfquote]
"First VQ3 demo I've seen in months, and a good reminder why.
That even the best players in the country can't turn this into anything other than a sniping snorefest truly saddens me, and I pity those who think this is something to aspire to."

How can you post this and then act like it is unreasonable to think you are talking about the merits of CPMA vs VQ3? Anyway, neither of the 'trolls' responded with terms that much more perjorative than yours.

"This was simply an incredibly dull game. Accept it. "

That may be what you think, but judging from the other comments, it wasn't dull...so when many people say 'its great', and you say' accept that its dull', the implication is that you are commanding them to cast off their own opinions and take on yours...in fact, even if you were calculating your posts to provoke defensive responses, you couldn't do any better than this. So I suggest you don't complain if people respond aggressively to this post too!

I am surprised that someone with so much experience in forums doesn't seem to understand how people will interpret and respond to his posts...
[/selfquote]

As you can see, my prediction of further flames was correct. I still find it hard to believe that you feel lthat you are being attacked unjustly for your beliefs, and yet invite such attack by stating your opinions in such a caustic manner.

Well said indeed. Good post.

i like both q3 variants. generally, cpma is faster and therefore (imo!) more spectacular. after something like matrox@cpm3, vq3 looks a bit slow.

edit after watching this demo:
not this game though. it depends on the players. damn fine from both. heh, if z4 didn't blow himself up right before the pummel frag... interesting aiming style, z4 all reflex, soc tracking with rail.

do you cry yourself to sleep when you see vq3 doing so well arqon? :)

i respect you arQon, but i think i don't anymore. And not because you dissed vq3, i diss it too. But because you are too blind to see that this game was amazing. That comment was way too dumb.

unfortunatly, same here =(

oh comeon! What is in this demo that you haven't seen in 12368 p4 demos already?

ZeRo4 probably lost the game when he switched over to the mg instead of just pad-rl'ing soc at around 1400..
other than that, this demo was just the ordinary railonly fight on p4, a few nice rails now and then, but there is far more entertaining vq3 demos out than this one.

The question is what makes a duel entertaining for you...if you are good at dueling, you probably watch to see new techniques, or perhaps someone who carries a technique to a new level; just seeing a great player have a better-than-average-for-him game with 70 ping (as in this case) doesn't entertain you.

However, for other people, seeing a duel at a very high skill level is itself entertaining...

The best analogy is that dismissing this game as boring (in the manner of Arq and CLX) is like saying "the olympic track events are boring - just the usual 'runonly' affair with a few lead changes." If you don't find running at a high skill level entertaining in itself, its true, but not everybody has that perspective. Its silly to act like no reasonable person should be able to gain entertainment by watching olympic track (or a 'railonly pro-t4'), since its obviously not the case. After all, you could apply the same argument to CPMA ('Its just keypress/mouseonly, I'm only entertained if you also simultaneously tap dance and whistle all the airs from The Pinafore!'). You can keep demanding that you see extra types of activity, but all that shows is that you are demanding, not that it is 'boring' in any absolute sense.

So yes, IMO Arq made a silly statement, which furthermore was obviously going to cause people to become upset at him, and he now believes himself beset by morons.

very nice comments balk :)

Nicely put. :)

My point though is that I'm NOT trying to compare this to a CPMA game: VQ3 games are always going to be slower and more about aim because that's the nature of the respective gameplay styles. I'm saying that even restricting the discussion SOLELY to VQ3 games and specifically T4 ones, there are MANY more interesting games out there from the last 3 years.
The only reason people are getting wood over this game is that it was the final of something, it was fairly close, and they recognise the names.

Being "beset by morons" is hardly a new experience for me... :P

Hmm, I personally like CPMA more, but I still think VQ3 has some good qualities that CPMA lacks...for example, in CPMA, maps feel smaller, movement is more versatile, combos are easier, the timer isn't exact, and armor doesn't decay (and comes in bigger denominations). This makes it focus on tactics more than strategy - in a fight, your decisions are often more important than aim, but your 'overall' decisions and the ability to pick the place and time of your fights are less important (although the fear of a death followed by inifinite CPMA spawnfragging offsets this somewhat).

I'm not saying all that as an attack on CPMA, but to explain that when I watch a VQ3 demo I look for precise in-fight aim and overall strategy, whereas if I want tactics/combos/prediction, I watch CPMA instead. That is why 'railonly' VQ3 pro-t4 demos are entertaining to me, since they reflect the map being played at the highest possible skill level (even if the map ought to be more balanced and include more strategy, perhaps by moving a YA inside the main room so that a good railgun isn't a substitute for positioning and map control).

arQon:

"VQ3 games are always going to be slower and more about aim because that's the nature of the respective game play styles."

You may be partially right in that statement about aim, however you must look at your own mod and look at what is necessary to win: Aim. vq3 has become what it is currently because of the high caliber of the players, and especially their aim. This does not mean that your own mod, cpma, is any different. In your cpma, you must hit your opponent in order to win. Period. The only difference is that in your mod, the players can move a little different. The game pace is a bit faster, but the core idea remains the same, frag or be fragged, which results from aim.

However, there ARE other aspects of a game that are more entertaining to other people. Map control, prediction, timing, and yes even movement.

I personally like to see people who can get control of a map and not let go. They can run the entire map and have multiple items timed to the second (or in LakermaN's case, to the millisecond (I will never forget him strafejumping down the corridor in ztn and right in the middle of his fast strafejumping, picks up the mega health, without stopping)). I would rather see someone who moves perfectly in vq3 rather than the crazy (fairy parading as I have personally coined it) stuff in cpma. Granted, it is nice to see people move like that, but the things that win the game are the knowledge, timing, AIM, etc.

Movement does help, but someone who is that good does not need to parade around like a fairy to win (not saying that I am that good as I never get to play anymore due to work and college). I would rather see someone control dm6 via the items and important locations and get the insane prediction shots, often timed almost perfectly (see ZeRo4 vs LakermaN BabbagesCPL final on dm6tmp, Laker is on middle level and fires a rocket up at the rl and it hits RIGHT in front of ZeRo4 as he comes strafing from the pillars).

I want to see people control a map, time the items, outsmart their opponents and not just fly through the map insanely fast and spawn rape the guy (cpm3). I prefer spawn raping to be something that is more of a control factor rather than a get there and rail him once as he spawns, then go elsewhere, repeat. Spawn raping is better when the person doing the raping has to get himself and the opponent into a position where he needs to hit the guy more than once to frag him. A little more control is needed.

Your cpma mod is a nice rendition of q3, and I do enjoy seeing some of the stuff in it, more so just for the speed. However, I prefer to watch a more multidimensional game of vq3 where there are many factors that come into winning the match, even more than just the aim.

Your mod is good, and you have done a great job with your work on it, but please do not say these things about another version (an earlier version) of the same game just because it may be slower or whatever the reason may be. It is what it is for reasons, and it has become one of the greatest skill games I have ever seen.

Thank you.

Reminds me of a ztn cpma demo here somewhere on esr with a 2-1 in score.
I do like the skill to think in a game, not just to run faster then another.

maybe that's the reason nobody plays cpm on ztn?

what's cpma ?

zero4 lost pro-t4 to chaoticz at quakecon i believe. i'm sure he's lost a ton of practice games as well. no one is unbeatable.

you're wrong!
It wasn't ZeRo4 on QuakeCon.
fatal1ty was beaten by cha0ticz on pro-q3tourney4 with very nice teleport-defensive-rail in the last seconds of battle, isn't he?
And next fatal lose his match against daler on ospdm8, where IMHO he could win.

I've never seen pt4 demo where ZeRo4 was beaten before this one.

thought that last-second-teleport-rail on pro-t4 was in the wgc-qualification?

You are right.

yea... my mistake, you're right!

that was chaoticz railing fatal1ty who didn't go to wcg.

he got beat by chaoticz at qcon02 on proq3dm6 and in qcon00 by lakerman and some other dude i dun remember.

soc's pov anyone?

gg both players
in the future i hope all tourneys played on t4 !!! ztn suckz

yeah, this is a good match :) until the end didnt know who could win
very great game, 1 of the better that i have ever seen on prot4
gg @ both players

Great that before even the download has finished you get told who wins, and how he wins the game. Now I can stop downloading it.

zero4 vs soc on dm13 first game @ http://www.cached.net/index.php?go=main/demo/single/12831

I guess punkbuster didnt stop these two aimbots from playing

just remember...

www.clan519.com

all the skillz

HAHA.

all these socratez-zero4 games are really enjoyable and fun to watch.. impressive aim from both players with ping around 65-70! good games!

(i too feel sorry for arqon.. only 2 people plays cpma :< )

I´m not saying ur stupid, only that u seem to have bad luck when u think.

yes only 2 people play cpma =/ its amazing how they play for so many clans in BWCMPL and can use two computers at the same time to make a team of 4.

The game itself IS dull. All about great railgun aim.
Sure the way they use RG is impressive and interesting to watch but if you guys try harder (i know its not easy in your case) you will come to conclusion there is nothing besides aim. Is this game you love?

yeah

This is game i love !
(pretty sad comments on arQon's behalf too)

thats what made it exciting! :o ;)

bs its not just aim.. theres alot of tactics too, movements etc, but maybe u havent figured that out

yep.. mr. anonymous from the CPM lands should get a clue

FPS= mostly aim

nice railing skillz, boring demo

gg!

Hmmmm, Zero4 showed his pro-t4 class again. He managed to get even score when socrates hit 40 rails with 65-70 ping!!! WTF? I truly believe that at least 15 of them were pure luck. Besides that would never happen with sub 30 pings, because mg becomes huge factor in pro-t4. So, this was one very unrealistic game, but very entertaining, the two best pro-t4 duelers (imo) made a great show.

yeah 44 % rails with 111 shots fired and 60-70 ping
WTFF

Watch the game played in that final on this same map. z4 takes command like he should. :) to those people who think this game wasn't enjoyable. hmm, i personally stopped watching after 2mins or so. I prefered the 'official' game on pt4 better. to those people who reduce these matches on pt4 between z4 and others to mere railaim, get some glasses.

eep, fucking mixed up the demos. i didn't finish watching 'this' demo due to it feeling lagged in the playback. anyhow, upon rewatching this game, it shows the typical headyness of both players. hardly a fucking 'rail contest'.

Very well played by both... very nice to see him get kicked off the pt4 throne... i dunno why but (imo) these demos (z4 vs soc) seem more pro/skilled then the euro ones... it just felt like i was bak at the WCG 2002 for some reason.

PS. 765 d/l :D... More d/l then the euro grand final :P... thats gotta mean somthin :D

PPS did anyone else feel weird about the euro finals... i kept expecting cooller to show up and start playing, then i would remember that he lost his rematch... some how it didnt feel like the final (Z4mus vs Fox).. =/

the cess style is boring. i shrug at pt4 games but download them because their aim is "wow". however i whould much more enjoy a game with the european style. ie some of the recent fox-zamuz-cooller games. one of the games that impressed me the most is not the game i enjoy the best today, but at that time it was kickass (polo vs fat on ztn, cologne)

/edit/ i feel i actually learn something. i dont want to learn that i should hit 60% rail with 200 ping.

I think its fair to say that when arQon is discussing q3 code its a good idea to listen, gameplay and entertainment a good idea to ignore.

The most dominant pro-t4 player in the world losing due to a sublime performance from socrates is certainly worth the acclaim.

yeah, zero4 beat some kid with an aimbot a while ago on pt4 so soc deserves c-r-e-d-i-t

socrates always the best for me :)

Reebs impressed me soooo much with his performace in the last year. The amount of concentracton to the play the map to this degree is insane. All those saying this is AIM please watch it again. This is as tactical as Q3 will get (with it's current parameters!)

AAA+ players, watch em and weep!

Great game I is recommend.