hyperx surge and i feel smoth

https://www.gigabyte.com/Comparison/Result/14?pids=5771,6590
https://prnt.sc/10s7z2q

Optical Sensor (Pixart 3389) haven't frametate ????
Optical Sensor (Pixart 3988) have framerate 12500

Posting in a WMO thread

It's hard to adapt to a different mouse shape, size even more so. If you were happy with your deathadder it may be best to buy another one. There are many deathadder variants now - from very affordable to expensive, wireless. I think optical sensors are good enough on almost anything nowadays.

You are on the right path with the Red Dragon brand, you won't regret the purchase. I particually enjoy their software. I'm not going to repeat myself so if you want you can read my thoughts after I switched from IE 3.0..

Still no WMO replacements. They insists on fucking it up one way or another. inb4 someone suggest a mouse with side buttons or wireless.

If you're looking for a mouse without side buttons that still has other good components, I don't think that's happening again. Even the trend of companies making 3 button mice for their 'budget gaming' model (Kinzu, Abyssus, etc) is something that doesn't happen anymore, and probably won't happen again. Only the cheap mice sold in bulk with computers for offices are in that segment.

Coming from a WMO myself, I have been looking at options for a long time, and recently decided to dump money in mice for some trials myself. I will make a post here when it's time.

What are cooller, cypher and rapha using? if they managed to stay competitive post wmo, I guess there is a way. But every time I tried, I just realized how good WMO is. And those side buttons always get in the way.

Pretty sure they all used Zowie EC2 a while ago, but Cooller moved to a Zowie ZA13-B and still uses it. Last I checked Cypher was using Razer Viper, and Rapha still used EC2.

razer viper might work for a pro gamer, because het gets a new model after a year ...
razer in general is low quality garbage, don't buy,
have now two different revisions of razer death adder broken with left click button, they have good marketing, but garbage products ... also got a razer kyo pro webcam recently, had to do a firmware update, because autofocus didnt work and video was way too dark ... how can u release such a badly working product?
You want a long living mouse? Logitech provides!!!

It says ZA13 on his twitch thing, however it doesn't specificy if its B or any other.

https://zowie.benq.eu/en-eu/mouse/za13-c.html

What are the differences between A B and C (new)?

Edit: I found this:

https://zowie.benq.eu/en-eu/mouse/za13-c.html...are-anchor

I wonder which one is best. The new one has reduced weight and paracord cable instead of rubber. Not sure if an advantage, the weight has to be as close to WMO as possible.

What is the mouse that is the most similar to WMO?

I see the EC2-A is not symmetrical. Perhaps ZA13 is the most similar. But i've heard on reddit the build quality is questional and the click buttons are stiff so not sure.

There was no ZA13 when the A series revisions came out, so you could say that the regular ZA13 is the ZA13-A in a way. I would skip it because it has side buttons on both sides (unless that's something you actually want).

Between the ZA13-B and ZA13-C, you can't go wrong with either. The minor differences are as mentioned on the website: ZA13-C has slightly lesser weight, paracord style cable, and a different scroll wheel. The first two factors won't make a difference for someone who was fine with the WMO. The scroll difference is subjective. You might have to go for the ZA13-C anyway, since it replaces the ZA13-B which itself couldn't be found on sale for a while (Zowies in general often go out of stock quickly).

The ZA13 shape in general is a very good alternative when moving from WMO, it certainly was for me despite some key differences in side angles. Are there other mice that are closer to WMO's angles? I would argue yes, like Roccat Burst Pro, but the ZA13 can get an honorable mention.

The FK and ZA shapes are all symmetrical, the EC are not. The S1/S2 mice are an interesting hybrid; for someone like me who feels a bit disabled with ergonomic shapes, the S1/S2 were very usable. It has to do with certain specific angles, and is something I have noticed on Roccat Kain 120 and Vaxee NP-01/NP-01S. i am waiting for a bunch of more different mice to be delivered, then I can spend some time evaluating how accurate my theories are.

What are the chances you end up in a "cheating" incident because of the atsiv.exe and SweetLow's drivers which allow you to overclock without test mode?

The only reason I would change WMO for a modern mouse is if in the future I try QC and join a tournament (or there is an actual Q3 successor in the future and I want to play competitive again and don't want to risk any potential "cheating" problems)

If it was safe I would just keep using WMO, I doubt I would attend LANs. However, it seems eventually it will be impossible. Everytime I switched to a more modern version of Windows the way to overclock becomes increasingly convoluted to the point it's frustrating enough for me to consider switching to a mouse that runs at 500hz plug and play.

As far as weight, I see the ZA13-B has 75g which is similar to what I can find about WMO's weight.

https://image.benq.com/is/image/benqco/za13-b...=png-alpha
weight:75g without cable

The new version is 65g.

https://image.benq.com/is/image/benqco/ZA13-C...=png-alpha
weight:65g without cable

Perhaps it feels weird to have such a lightweight mouse and screws up my muscle memory. And im used to WMO's shitty plastic cable at this point.

The extra steps in the wheel may be good for me. The WMO I have now is so sensitive, it sometimes gets triggered because the wheel was stuck between a step, it's too smooth. I have a bunch of WMO's I bought from some chinese dealer years ago on ebay so im hoping those are legit, but I remember my previous WMO not being so sensitive on the wheel.

The B version is in stock in some places at my reach so that's not a problem. I just have to decide what makes the most sense.

Drivers and sensor wise both are the same?

What may get on my nerves are the side buttons, but there are no mouses without side buttons.

Other things would be liftoff distance and stiffness of the buttons. It just takes a difference noticeable enough to ruin the mouse for me.

About the sensor, I've heard someone say WMO is actually better, because its more "raw" or something compared to modern ones, whatever that means. Is this broscience? I mean, if not even the sensor are better than an old cheap mouse, what's the point, I might as well keep it.

The ultimate solution would be that someone mods an existing mouse inside a WMO case. I would hire such a service if availible.

Edit: Upon further research, this mouse seems too small:

https://imgur.com/UKdMwBh

With the way games, anticheats and operating systems are progressing, I would think before using background utilities. Generally I don't think it's a big deal especially if you're always gonna play from home. But things are getting an increasingly closed nature with time, which makes an account/license loss not only more susceptible, but also have a greater impact on the user.

Now, having been around this website for a long time, I know you can be quite anal and overthink things. Your post is an obvious example of this. But I need you to think about this calmly and rationally.

Your concerns about reduced performance with a different mouse, or a future game you might want to be competitive in, and the stakes you put on the line that will be affected by either of these, are all kind of overblown. I am not downplaying your approach, I am suggesting you lighten the psychological burden you have put on yourself for these things.

Only worry about the present and maybe the very near future, and deal only with that. Who's to say anything about the future of Quake or Quake-likes, or your interest in competitive FPS, or even your life allowing you to pursue such an interest. Don't think about things that don't exist, only try and tackle the gaming qualms right in front of you.

So, with this hopeful reset of approach, let's clarify some things. Remember, I have similar preferences to yours (set and forget functions, wired and stable, straight forward designs, high end components and firmware, etc).

- Are mice with native 1000Hz polling a worthwhile upgrade? Yes, even more so if you have a high refresh rate monitor. Higher than 1000Hz polling is still an arguable gimmick though.

- Are there mice that circumvent the minor annoyances that appear on aging WMOs? Yes.

- Are any new mice as durable as WMOs? Arguable, because of what durability could mean. A WMO will take a beating and somehow remain functional, but what about usable? Those worn out buttons, or faulty cables, the famous scroll problems; eventually a WMO might be working but it is not worth more performance usage. Modern mice (in my experience) will keep working at the same usable level until a button or function just gives out or breaks. Understand the difference? Yes YMMV applies, but all of us WMO/IO1.1/IE3.0 users remember having more than one unit and moving to a fresh one after some months.

Some additional points to directly address your post:
- Yes, the ZA13-B has better build quality than ZA13-C
- Will the 75g vs 65g weight matter? Realistically, no. In fact, I believe it doesn't have to be close to the WMO either (which was almost 80g).
- You will probably like the scroll wheel on ZA13-C more, but keep in mind that all variations of Zowie (and Vaxee) scroll wheels feel different from what scroll wheels generally feel like. They have very evident indents, allowing a lot more control and stoppage if that's what you want from the wheel. Personally I can live with them, but I can see why many others cannot.
- Zowies use no drivers, everything can be set on the mouse with buttons on the bottom. There's not much to set anyway.
- On the ZA13, the only way the side buttons can be annoying depends on how you place and adjust your thumb during gameplay. Is there slightly lesser surface area for your thumb compared to WMO? Yes, but it was still enough to not be debilitating. Also keep in mind there's also a ZA12 which is a slightly bigger version. Depending on how you grip, it could be slightly better. (Not to mention other options besides Zowie)
- Zowie button stiffness hasn't really been a thing ever since the Zowie Benq versions that we see today. It's just old knowledge now. They do use Huano switches (vs the Omron or Panasonic ones on old MS mice), so they are tactile but a bit differently. Still clicky like any mouse switch, just feel a bit different (eg the actual click is a bit more pronounced).
- Liftoff distance and tracking will not be a problem if you stick to 3360 sensor and its variants, and 3389 and its variants. Note the 3389 is just a 3360 v1.5 in a way, they're almost the same in performance. These are all the absolute best sensors you can get today, and after trying a lot (and discussing with others I trust) it is safe to say these sensors are enough to move on from the MLT04. I won't get into the nitty gritty for now but I am satisfied.
- A lot of the things you are concerned about are broscience. I understand what people mean by the MLT04's "raw feel", and I loved it too. But we have been getting increasingly better sensors (ever since 3090, 3310) and from the 3360 onwards it's not even a concern. The input is clean, there are no bugs, and a mouse needs to have actively bad firmware to fuck it up these days. There are other good sensors too, like 3335 variants, but they aren't up there. When there are so many options of great shapes with the best sensor, why settle for less anyway? And if you're wondering about the sensor model numbers, yes they are not sequential and it can get quite confusing.
- In brief terms, the ZA13 shape will feel slimmer in terms of grip width, and the furthest part of the m1/m2 buttons will feel lower in height. Though it was an easy adjustment for me, you might want to try before you buy.

Please remember, it will be rare for you to just put your hand on a different mouse and feel like nothing changed. You could have everything be the same, but change one thing like sensor position or mouse switch and it will take a little adjustment from you. But don't underrate your adaptability. Your muscle memory is about practice, the mouse is just a tool to reduce mental distractions. Some mice might take a little more time, or sometimes people take a little longer themselves. But I am certain there are options out there today that will give you that same confidence in your execution that you believe you get from WMO. You just need to stop thinking about it while you're trying a different mouse. Constantly comparing it to the WMO will make it worse. Start blank, plan a few scenarios you want to check, use intensively for a few days at minimum, and go from there. If nothing else, it will atleast help you be more specific in your preferences.

And ofcourse, see if you have the opportunity to return easily before you purchase.

If you want some options to think about besides the ZA13: Roccat Burst Pro, Dream Machines DM1 FPS, Vaxee Zygen NP-01S, Endgame Gear XM1, Gamesense MVP.
These are not suggestions (yet), only some mice with shapes to think about, and top internals without compromise. Can you show me what your grip looks like?

For custom mice, I know BeardedBob and Piranha Mouse Mods are trusted. A modded WMO with modern internals shouldn't be hard for them.

Phew, what a text wall.

I've looked at the suggested models and discarded symmetrical ones or mouses that are too small. The za13 next to the WMO looks too small, I don't want that "notepad mouse" feel that smaller mice delivers. za12 may be it:

https://www.overclock.net/threads/zowie-za-11...t-23882715

Size looks similar enough. On the back its too thing tho.

What about the FK shape? why is no one using this anymore? I reckon this was similar to the WMO.

And what about the S series? there's too many options with zowie. It's actually confusing.

The MVP one claims to be built around the WMO, so it may be worth testing.

My grip is a claw grip. Not me but you get the idea:

https://i.imgur.com/ajuSQVI.jpg

The parts that rest on the mouse are the

I barely rest anything on the mouse except little and ring finger area, i mean under the knukles of these fingers, that area, it sits nicely on the back of the WMO. I also get some extra grip with the upper part of the and touching the lower part of the WMO around the height of the Microsoft logo (before it was erased due usage).
I think I may not be able to hold it like that with the za12:

https://www.overclock.net/media/no-title.4178982/full

I'd say the EC and FK are much more widely used than the ZA and S shapes, but it could be because the majority of the public is 1) palm grippers 2) not playing AFPS games so their playstyle demands are different. The FK is good, but I found it to be too low going from a WMO. Your opinion might differ. The S is pretty good but I was hitting the side buttons easily, so that's a no go.

The Gamesense MVP is on its way. I doubt it will be super identical to the WMO, but who knows.

Your grip is not very different from mine, so I feel like we are looking for the same thing. If you are able to return with ease, I really suggest giving the ZA12 a try. Otherwise, I can give you an update once I've tried some more mice.

I'll be getting some and testing as well. As far as switches, which would be an improvement from WMO's? It happens to have a sweet spot in this field too. It is stiff enough, but not too stiff to require too much force, and not too soft which may end up in missclicking as you rest the fingers in there. I haven't tested a new mouse in ages so I don't know how it these days. I may test a frankenmouse too. Which components would be best fitting in this case? I see people use a logitech one as a base in there often. Is there a reason or if you hire a proper engineer he could put any individual components together?

In my experience, the differences between switches themselves aren't big enough to make a real world difference. The real differences come from elements of the shell's construction. I think this is what the 'scene' has kind of realized too.
All those mice that were said to be stiff? There were later mice with different shell construction using the same switches that didn't feel stiff. That's what Zowie themselves did too, they improved the shell but kept the same switch.

For the sake of discussion, I'll put it in broad terms:
- Omrons feel the easiest to click and are the most common
- Huanos (blue in particular) are a bit stiffer and louder but have a pronounced click
- Kailh (GM4 or 8) are like in-between, and probably the most popular among modders
- the WMO uses old Panasonic square ones that haven't been used in mice in ages. I'd say they are like more stubby in-betweeners. Their difference on the PCB also means that swapping them is not straightforward, while the above three can be replaced and soldered interchangeably.
- optical switches perform well but are a relatively new thing and a lot of people don't like how they feel vs mechanical switches. To help with this, some brands have been working on additional mechanisms in the shell (springs, levers, button attachment types) and it's been an interesting development.

A lot of the time, opinions are influenced by the audible feedback as well. Listening to a button click can give a different perception of it's tactility. For example, in usage, I have never had any issues with optical switches because I often have headphones on and my concentration is on what I am doing rather than the mouse itself (if it's good). But if I test a button's feel and listen to it with intent, that's when I understand a lot of the opinions about optical switches. This is kinda why I think the takes against optical switches aren't really valid, since at the end of the day the point is how well they do in their purpose - clicking and responding in games.

I think im going to pick the gamesense and if I like the switches I may use those on a mod, but then again you mention the shell matters too so I wonder how those would work with the wmo case.
Which feet would one use for wmo these days? if its modded, I may need new ones since whenever you unscrew it you have to remove them. I think I bought hyperglides but lost them somewhere.

Hyperglides and Corepad are still the go-to, but Hotline and Tiger brands are also quite popular these days because they give thickness/material options.

Where do you buy hyperglides that work with the wmo? I mean link. I forgot what one I bought, which model exactly worked with 1.1?

Their website is ancient and when I click not in usa it doesn't load:
https://www.hyperglide.net/

Also, what cable should I get for a mod? The default rubber cable for wmo is a bit lame, it pushes to the opposite direction if you turn your wrist a lot. But I have never tried paracord, so im not sure if I will like it. Paracord almost looks like a shoe cord, in the sense that it may get in the way when you move the mouse up, because it offers to resistance,so I may even place the mouse on top of the cable if I do a quick lift + up + down movement if it makes sense. Or does paracord offer enough resistance for this not to happen?

It's been a while. You can try maxgaming.com:

https://www.maxgaming.com/en/mouse-skates/ms-...xplorer-30
https://www.maxgaming.com/en/mouse-skates/ska...skoll-hati

Or directly from Corepad EU:

https://www.corepad.de/en/Corepad-Skatez-Micr...IE-30.html

I am also pretty sure Amazon has them officially stocked, check the one relevant for your region.

I haven't reproduced it in my limited usage, but maybe fabric-based cables like paracords can be too slinky like you think. If that's a fear, you can always transplant a thin light rubber cable instead. Good sources for this kind of mod are older Razer mice (before they started using braided), some cheapo Logitech mice like RX250/M90/M100/B90/B100/G100/G100S, and Zowie mice though they're the most expensive option I guess. In my own experiences I have come across many office mice from Logitech and Dell that had pretty good cables for such mods.

The first link is out of stock, the others don't mention optical 1.1, are you sure these are compatible with wmo?

I can't find it on amazon. I think it was this one but it's out of order:
https://www.amazon.com/Hyperglide-Microsoft-I...B00X9FGBI8

About cable, there's an M90 on sale for really cheap:

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Ratón-cable-M...B003D8ZT0C

Im just wondering what the difference is between these mouses and compared to what the wmo uses. I mean a Razer is going to feel different from a Logitech unless they used exact same type of rubber, cable, lenght etc, all factors matter, it's a gamble really.

Aren't zowies just regular paracords?

The WMO, IO1.1, IE3.0 all use the exact same skates. And the Corepad ones are in stock, those are pretty good too.

Some other websites you can try:
itaktech.com
zerkgamingmods.co.uk
lethalgaminggear.com

You can also find Hotline skates or Tiger gaming ones on Amazon. Those are good options.

You're overthinking the cables my dude. Yes, thin rubber cables might be slightly different on different mice, but the end result in practice is almost the same. Any of them will be an improvement over the WMO cable for sure. If this is your first ever cable swap, I can understand why it feels like a gamble like any kind of modding does.

And I was referring to slightly older Zowie models. Zowies have never used fabric cables until the C series, so no they're not paracords unless ofcourse you are looking at the C series mice. Though the previous Zowie cables, despite being rubber, are more easy going and more slinky than most other rubber cables.

What is your take on dpi usage?

I have been using the same mouse for ages so i've always used 400 dpi. Now I see they go really high, yet, I see many pros still using 400 at least on Quake. Why? wouldn't it be better to use dpi as high as it goes, then just halve your sens value as many times as needed to match your previous 360/cm? I don't get it. Higher dpi = smoother, more precise movements are registered. Why not go as high as technology can go?

Honestly I think it's mostly preference/habits. In Diabotical I tested super low sens on 400 DPI and could see small skips when moving the mouse as slowly as possible, but the skips went away after going to 800 or 1600 DPI. There's no real reason for using 400 DPI except having a low sens in the menus of the game -- and maybe because it's easier to type in an accel value of 0.15 instead of 0.0023.

Despite all the discussion and theory behind it, in IRL usage it's really subjective. Things like the type of games you play or the way you use the mouse outside of games can have just as much influence on your DPI of choice as compared to in-game feel. As of today, while using screen resolutions higher than 1080p and trying out more game genres, I sometimes use 800dpi. But even in newer games I have come across moments where the lowest sensitivity the game allows me to set is still too fast, so I use 400dpi.

Most old pros use 400 out of habit, and new pros use it out of legacy. Most other people focused on aim don't realistically go beyond a max of 1600/1800 DPI, which are levels that have been surpassed by sensor tech long, long ago. I'd say that's enough of a reason to ignore a 'best DPI' discussion. For me personally, 400dpi is still a pretty valid choice. Maybe this will change for me in the near future, or maybe I just naturally prefer a really slow mouse both inside and outside games.

You have to be practical too. One can argue higher DPI is more precise or whatever, and decide on 1600dpi for example and fine tune sens/FOV/res/engine quirks/etc, but none of that matters if it forces you to use some mental energy even when using Windows desktop.

It's a plus that the current flagship sensors don't have much of an issue with native DPI steps, which was an important reason for using certain DPI levels in the past. With the 3360/3389 especially, you're perfectly fine up to approx 2000DPI, and even beyond that if you don't mind a bit of smoothing.

It's a bit of personal research to find what you like; things like "2.0@400dpi vs 1.0@800dpi" can (and probably should) only be compared on a personal level. If you have been using 400dpi today, and nothing changes in your habits, then feel free to stick to it. If you use any kind of accel, then even more so. But there's also no harm with experimenting with other DPI levels, just don't start doing something silly like using 5000dpi and adjusting Windows mouse speed slider and what not.

Can't you set the dpi you want depending on the software you are using via drivers? like, use default 400 dpi on windows, and if quake3.exe is executed switch to 800 dpi or whatever.

That depends on the mouse software having this feature. Many have it but not all.

They behave and feel different.

Low dpi (400) gives less variation in movement. More predictible, repeatable and consistent movement. Its slower because for every inch only 400 movements can happen.

At 800dpi you get 800 movements out of an inch. For lack of better word you are being 2x as violent with the sensor when you move the same distance, and you scale this away with in-game sensitivity. The mouse can now do smoother and finer movments, but at a loss of consistency. There is more variation and deviation.

Basically, moving 1 inch at 800 is like throwing it 2 inches at 400, your getting more speed out of it, that u need to scale away in-game

as somebody above said. Corsair Katar Pro XT. I havent tried it but its cheap AF. They mostly all have on the fly dpi toggle which is how to get a better sense of this stuff.

viper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zO2p5rkkOo
viper

viper

kvlt beatz

opened my viper, found 60g of crack
now the mouse is weightless

That's not even crack, it's Razer Gaming Powder (TM).

(TIM)

You can always do a little comparing on this site. Personally I got some WMO vibes when I was playing with a Glorious Model O for a good while. I'm on the Model D wireless now - works flawlessly btw, and only comes in at around 68 g.

The gaming mouse problem was solved with Viper Ultimate

G pro superlight or g pro wireless. Both are awesome.

Bit expensive tho.

I would advise anyone to go with a trusty brand and model at first, before you might get into special shape/brand category.

So Check out Zowie EC2-C for right handed or ZA13-C for ambidextrous.