One of the bigger updates, imo.

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*biggest

She's been ruined for all other guys.

the ammos boxes look sexy af :)

please add vq3 movement and your playerbase will increase

I love this kind of baits

I'm not even baiting I genuinely would play it (or at least give it a shot). newborn gave me a free key ages ago which I'm grateful for but still haven't used it yet because I don't like cpm movement. I'd just rather spend my FPS deathmatch time playing quake instead, and I don't think I'm the only one.

I've haven't been paying that much attention to the arguments there have been about it so I dunno if the devs have a definitive stance on the matter yet or whether it's just a matter of time.

nope, you are indeed not the only one. same reason i dont play it.
its a niche inside a niche.

Yeah, would be great if the movement was based around tweaked VQ3 instead of cpm.

They have said publicly that vq3 movement wont be a part of reflex.

Unfortunate to hear

(great update though!)

sad... :/

Nice to hear

so you're basically saying that you don't like movement but you haven't played the game despite you were given one copy...

sounds very quakish indeed, you need to understand this aint quake anymore, it's just... reflex, another game.

maybe give a chance to the movement in parkourstation since tutorials are not done yet.

Quakeworld has aircontrol but you don't consider that Quake?

Is it just movement? You're okay with different weapons, weapon balances, tiered armor, different maps, and different pickup timing?

oddly enough all of that is fine and feels like cosmetical differences in comparison with the way you move in the game. I think the movement has way more impact on the general gameplay, as it drastically changes every aspect of it (like aim, due to how you enemy can move or is expected to move).
Not saying cpm movement is bad for the same reason i wont say UT movement is bad, altho that feels even more alien to me. I just think when it comes to how to interact with the surrounding level in a game, a player developes a preference based on the game he likes and plays the most.
Restrictions in movement aint generally a bad thing, so saying "faster and with more freedom is always better" would be stupid. The main reason beeing that level design and prediction in aiming become redundant at some point. For the most of us vq3 is the sweet spot as thats where we are coming from. Nothing wrong with looking for a game that closely matches that feeling we got used to. Doesnt mean the next game has to be a quake clone tho and tbh Overwatch is closer to what a vq3 player might think is fun as it brings refreshing aspects. Reflex on the contrary is for a vq3 player nothing more than a quake clone that changes the 1 thing he didnt ask for beeing changed - the movement. So instead of playing Reflex its more likely that he will either stick to his old love (QL) or look for something completly new (OW)

Spot on.

Quakeworld has aircontrol and fast gameplay. Is it not Quake? CPM was inspired by QW, not vq3. A lot of the design choices were made with that way in mind.

QL plays a bit faster than vq3 due to chainjump and faster rockets and lower rail damage. So the sweet spot of vq3, I guess, is outdated. QL "progressed" away from vq3 only as far as the community would allow.

I'm not sure if you posted that explanation to convince yourself how you feel or really think the developers will adulterate their vision for the game. Reality is that most QL players want more than just QL movement and would not change games.

Based on your comments, I doubt there's anything I could say to convince YOU to give it a chance, to play a dozen hours or so. Problem is that it's not a new genre to you - I think Reflex can and will be a lot more successful with non-QL players who are open to change.

Also, I strongly disagree that it's just movement that makes the game. It is the balance of all the elements that determines how the game plays - even elements external to the game like internet and hardware change the way a game is played. That's easy to see in the different play styles between European and American players simply based on average pings.

you may think that people fly around the map with so much freedom but actually most maps are "well designed", there is stuff that still make positioning equally important to vq3.

RA is usually in a pesky placement which is hard to get out of, sometimes you need to perform a trickjump to grab a mh... or even other items. When you know your enemy is about to perform one of those tricks your positioning will fuck him up.

In fact when someone is performing a trick is the best moment to attack... why? well, the big moves are very mechanical and you can't shoot while doing these tricks, it's not like we press one button and the trick just magically happens. You need skill and timing to perform these. This is a restriction too... right?

Fast is better? ofc not, slower isn't better either. It's pure bias... you're describing what you think of it, not what you actually experienced (IMO), did you even give a it a try?

"I think the movement has way more impact on the general gameplay, as it drastically changes every aspect of it (like aim, due to how you enemy can move or is expected to move)"

so you're basically saying that you prefer a hitscan fest than a game with emphasis on projectiles...

well, I agree actually. If the game wasn't as fast, I would play it.

that's what CS players say about Q3 as well.

...and there's nothing wrong with that.
each to their own

Take my [+] for civilly ending an argument in the best possible manner.

many cs players are enjoying reflex because it's fast, I've talked to them.

Same thing i said.
I did actually buy the game just to support a upcoming fps game... but when i played it it just felt like CPMA all over again.. which as already said is a niche inside of a niche.

There is a reason Painkiller did not take off... noone plays warsaw etc.

Honestly they should at least have the option to have vq3 style movement just to see if it will have an affect.

I know me and a bunch of friends would play it.

The reason PK failed was a lot more than just game speed...

rufus <3

I'm not sure why people are so keen on jumping the QL ship since, until Reflex, I had been away from FPS for a few years, but I'm going to assume that you're all pissed at id for not catering to your needs as much as you'd like.
Now, what the fuck makes you think you'd be better served by a developer team of 3 who had orginally set out to make a whole different game from the one you want?
Best case scenario, you get something you can live with that you accept mostly out of spite towards id (until you jump that ship too when it becomes clear that not every single QL player is going to make the switch, that is), in which case Reflex, from a "niche of a niche" becomes a haven for the angry splinter group of a larger niche, probably losing a significant chunk of the CPM crowd in the process.

Like it or not, until Q5 comes out (lol), QL is THE VQ3 platform. Added VQ3 support in Reflex wouldn't change that.

This.

I know me and a bunch of friends would play it.

Bullshit.

How is the movement in Reflex? Is it very close to PQL? I find PQL movement to be so wierd and bad. It's not cool air control its wierd midair strafe, it feels like that to me. I like the given speed and control but the angles are wrong.

Movement is slower than PQL but has triple jump (not chain jumping), no wallclipping, and +forward has a slight bit of airstrafe.

100% this.

reflex is fun game. more people play it now. but is too fast for me

Poor ins.

Get faster and play it.

Haven't tried out Reflex in a while. Feels god damn fantastic! 200fps on High settings (r9 290). Super responsive, in some ways it feels a little bit more responsive than QL. It's basically a CPM replacement at this point. Unfortunately no servers in SA, so will continue not to play :( Considering the game is pretty much "complete" I suppose they will now focus on features and maps for launch? I suppose bots aren't required, but will be nice just so that people in places with no servers can play.

Are you back in ZA now? (iirc you were in EU before?) If so, fancy some QW if we can get a server running?

Real men drink Hansa, eat biltong and play QW!

"Considering the game is pretty much "complete" " It's nowhere near being complete, literally nowhere near. There is a lot of things that are going to be added, engine changes, sound engine changes, movement changes, new models, meshes. There's so much more I can list that is going to be done. Money is the big restriction in this situation but the dev team is doing everything they can to constantly push new updates with new things and they always consider what the players have to say. So yeah, there's still a long road ahead of us.

Could you please edit your reply as it looks like you forgot to put [/b] somewhere, thanks.

Nice work, purple one takes #1 sexy place

I wonder why reflex doesn't want to go down as the ultimate deathmatch platform by allowing modding and custom gameplays. Basically this way their only role is to provide a "deathmatch" engine where anyone can make their own game inside of theirs. This would surely increase their playerbase. If I could play Q1-Q4 in the same engine I wouldn't need to open any Quake.

Well turn it around. "I can already play Q1-Q4 in Q1-Q4 so why would I buy another game?" Also let's be honest here, these are Quakers we're talking about. If one detail about the VQ3 ruleset (or any ruleset for that matter) isn't exactly the same as in the original VQ3, people won't play it. I know right now Reflex is pretty much a CPM clone, but the devs have been pretty vocal about wanting to introduce new things in the future, when the engine is more fleshed out. To give you an indication of how much still needs to happen, the sound engine is still some macgyver shit they wrote in one day (or so I've been told). Which is pretty understandable imo, considering they're basically three dudes working in their spare time.

Ye, but that's not only about Quakers though. It would be much more convenient for me to choose between different rulesets and maps in one hub. You could just sell it by "you get Q1-Q4, UT99-UT4, warsow with one buy/game". Or "I want to play a DM game which should I get?" and "Get reflex, it has everything."

I understand they want to make their own vision happen, but lets be honest, there is 0 guarantee it's any good. I'll give a better chance for a random pothead playing around with gameplay editor and coming up with the next "dota" or "cs" (aka mods). The more people we have making mods gameplay/mods the bigger the chance one of them will be really good. I bet everyone has tons of ideas about things to try, but the threshold of learning how to mod Quake is way too high to be convenient. If they made a good weapon, gameplay etc editor with their kick-ass map editor I'm sure people would just come to mess around.

So basically finding the next Quake is about messing around not about calculating behind the drawing board.

Agree 100%. Almost every game that has been huge at one point or still is (Quake, CS, Warcraft 3 etc) did so by providing a solid base game that hooks people and let them expand their experience with mods/scripting. I think creating a game with the intent of it being the next big e-sports game is a case where ambitiousness crosses the line into foolishness.

Isn't Q3 source available? You should make a mod.

I've been thinking about it but it's besides the point.

I mean if everyone has access to the tools, that'd be the way to get to the "next Quake", right?

Wrong. You're ignoring the psychological factors like patience or motivation. People need to be willing and motivated to learn how to use the tools before they can actually make their ideas real. That's a big hurdle and the games that make it as easier than others will have more people modding the game. What do you think why they've added map editors in game while they could use some separate application like Radiant? I'm willing to bet that bigger percentage of people who have played Reflex than in Quake have tried making a map because of the ease of access. If you make the threshold low as possible you'll have more people tackling the new Quake problem which increases the probability that something cool will come out.

On top of that, being good at programming does not mean they are good at game design. Look at John Carmack and John Romero. Game design is a much different mastery and needs much different skill-sets. You don't want to filter out those people who have those skills, but can't be arsed to learn C++.

Exactly. So how is opening Reflex to modding going to change the need for patience and motivation? Map making is fundamentally a visual thing as it deals with spatial relationships between objects, but modding to the extent you're probably talking about requires more than just basic use of mouse and hotkeys (like using the map editor).

Modders can get all the bells and whistles out of the box with a whole lot of existing game engine that are free to develop for.

It's about reducing the initial workload by making a better interface and framework to work on. The deathmatch game to build on is already there. I'm talking about the introductory steps for everyone to make the learning curve smoother making it more pleasant.. Look how Unreal Engine 4 and Unity do it. One started using visual scripting to make things more intuitive for the "artsy" people and other has a lot of thing already premade in the unity workshop which you can just drag and drop. Both are far more easier to work on than any past Quake.

I think what you're asking for is a huge undertaking that'd would require a lot lof time for the developers to do. If that is really what you want, why not start by contributing to the developers (buy the game or donate) so they can finish the game they set out to make? If they decide to build an Arena FPS modders dream engine, they're more likely to be successful in that venture if they're well supported. It'll also help that Reflex itself is successful.

Yes, I agree it's a huge task, but I was trying to explain how smoothing the learning curve is important. If they'd open the game for modding (without the tools I've mentioned) I'd buy the game tomorrow. For now I don't know what I will be buying.

You'd buy it maybe but there isn't exactly a huge market for modders look to make an Arena FPS... For easy, out of the box stuff, there's already general purpose engines that do that very well.

As far as I know about coding, fixed things are easier to do than open-ended. It would be extra strain for 3 guys to make the engine functionality freely available and flexible for modding.

Its funny how they made a mod for q3, yet they don't allow for their game(which is almost 1:1 clone of said q3 mod) to be moded.

When retards respond, this is what you end up with.

I don't think that is a retarded thing to say. Especially since their engine seems to be nice and has a ton of shit done in lua. I'm sure you could at least see why someone would find it frustrating that a game has great tools/a great framework for modding that will probably never see the light of day. It's like if Blizzard showed everyone the world editor for WC3 and said "ladder play is the future and the single style of play that you will experience in our game".

And before everyone jumps down my throat and tells me that the game isn't CPM and that the devs have ownership of the game: I know both of those things and am not contesting them or saying that they should change.

It is cpm though. CPM with different textures, map editor, and lua scripting. I've played both, and there is hardly any difference at all when it comes down to what actually matters: playing the game, where the only remarkable difference (in my opinion) is that it's even less engaging than cpm.

I don't disagree with you. CPM feels much better to me and I have to imagine that some number of people feel the same since there are a bunch of others who never made the move from CPM to Reflex.

That was my initial reaction. I've played CPM for roughly 10 years and Reflex feels a good bit different (for me, at least). I didn't initially like Reflex but after maybe 10-20 hours of playtime it started to feel more natural and in some ways feels more solid and responsive.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good game (I have 100+ hours on it), it's just that there's no "hook" to keep me playing and there are a lot of small things that when taken together made switching to QL the more appealing option for me.

Well it is an early access game. Each update has changed the game a fair bit, imo. Once it gets matchmaking, persistent stats, and better demo support (among other small things), it'll be more of a complete game.

What made you change to QL?

It is not CPM though.

lol wake up

Am awake, changes nothing.

I know you're probably just taking the piss but the Reflex community has been one of the worst I have ever seen with regards to the allowance of discussion about its features and design. A lot of people who play it do some kind of schizophrenic wavering between "it's NOT CPM so do NOT compare it to it or ELSE" and "if you want something to be different than in CPM then TOO BAD because it's the DEVELOPERS' game and NOT YOURS and it's PERFECT HOW IT IS".

I think those attitudes stem from a combination of people who fervently want the game to be the next stadium-filling international phenomenon and people who came from other, shitty FPSes and don't like the idea of their new main squeeze being criticized.

I don't see that kind of reaction by the Reflex community and I'm sorry you feel that way. I think most of the Reflex community would be happy to see more changes. This is a 0.41 update thread, after all...

I don't get where you see this, I am a reflex player and have been a CPM player since 2006. Me and all the old cpm players I know that play Reflex are all FOR change.

Nobody I know has this schizophrenic wavering you're talking about, compare cpm to reflex all you want, but at least acknowledge the differences, most of the arguments from people are "it has aircontrol, so it's cpm".

I agree the community can be quite bad at times though, like the whole timer thing or when fog was added.

If we look at gameplay exclusively, It is by far the closest thing to cpm currently existing, apart from maybe ql turbo and cpm itself. As far as I can see, the only differences are the lack of corner-clipping, the addition of triplejumps, different spawn gun, easier plasmaclimbing, some weapon balance tweaks (including different hitbox) and the fact that the mega countdown has a sound and starts after the owner took 100 points of dmg. Nothing that really touches the core formula (compared to other titles in the subsubgenre e.g. qw, vq3, warsow or xonotic). Scriptable HUDs, map editors and so on are nice but haven't taken directions yet which strongly influence gameplay.

Regarding the constant there-will-be-heavy-changes-and-lots-of-experimentation-soon echoing chamber, well, that's what we've been hearing since 2014 and none of it ever happened, with one exception which caused a massive shitstorm and community backlash (timers). Plus Newborn has called weapon balance final at some point in the not too distant past (somewhere in the forums, last few months or so), which I interpret as meaning that they do not intent to do ground-breaking gameplay changes anymore. I'm hoping they introduce some interesting and truly different gamemodes, or put an emphasis on something like hooneymode or teammodes, but to be honest, I doubt it. Like others, I hope the community will get decent tools to alter the gameplay and implement such things themselves (like the Domination thing someone did), since the devs seem clearly unwilling to think outside the box.

differences are the lack of corner-clipping, the addition of triplejumps, different spawn gun, easier plasmaclimbing, some weapon balance tweaks and the fact that the mega countdown has a sound and starts after the owner took 100 points of dmg

Different weapon balance 'tweaks' meaning completely different weapon balance.

...different melee weapon, different hitboxes (and playerheight), different armor protection, different air control, different sound system, different spawn system, graphical megahealth indicator, different knockback system.

The only thing it really has in common with CPM is aircontrol, and even that is different.

Aside from the movement changes, would you really say that the degree of weapon balance changes constitutes calling Reflex an entirely new game incomparable to CPM? Is launch QL an entirely different game than its current iteration? In my opinion it's just QL with different weapon balance, since the game's foundation is the same (as is the case with CPM and Reflex).

No wallclipping is lame. Wallclipping is something that happens to you a few times and you're like "OH that's cool" because what's happening makes intuitive sense and clicks.

The addition of triple jumps is fucking retarded. All it does is encourage mapmakers to make Sick Triple Jump Spots where you jump from the bottom of the map to the top lol.

Basically the above post is exactly what I'm talking about. If you told someone "yo try this new "arena FPS" (lol) that's inspired by, but not a clone of, CPM" they would assuredly imagine something that changes some aspect of the game's foundation and not "CPM with enough tweaks that it fits my semantic definition of not being the same game as CPM".

I started playing CPM like 10 years ago. It's my favorite and most played FPS by a longshot and one of my favorite games period. I WANT changes to the formula to be tried because if they don't work out then CPM is still there. What I don't want is to pay for a game that promises experimental changes but then digs its feet in as some kind of unfocused CPM frankenstein monster.

The addition of triple jumps is fucking retarded. All it does is encourage mapmakers to make Sick Triple Jump Spots where you jump from the bottom of the map to the top lol.

That's one of the main reasons why I'm against of artificially, deliberately introduced movement "features" that are not actual exploitable bugs in the game/physics engine found by the players and mastered hard to be taken advantage of, and so maps stay clean of that crap, and exploitation of those bugs demands high preciseness, training, and skill.

When I think of all those possible tricks on q2dm1 that Tim Willits couldn't (as I presume) foresee were possible, not just it makes it all so much more fun, challenging, and authentic, but one might even see a hand of God there considering the sheer number of them on that map and how would one have to stretch the game movement in order to master them all.

Are you sure that these "unforeseen" bugs aren't still here with the addition of the triple jump? Maybe not enough time has passed for them to blossom into existence?

I didn't say bugs aren't there; in fact that's precisely my point: let the bugs be discovered and made use of by players. History shows that artificially added movement tricks are rarely as interesting and challenging as natural ones (née bugs).

Yeah but maybe there are bugs that are unforeseen with the triple jump(I'm not calling IT a bug), they just haven't been discovered yet.

Also we'd have to discuss aircontrol and doublejumps to see where history stands because a) I find them the most challenging and interesting(par the groundboost) and b) I don't know which if any of them is accidental(i.e. a bug).

Oh I see what you mean now, that could very well be true, considering e.g. how it affects stairjump to RA on Aerowalk as mentioned below in #116. Interestingly, introduction of double jumps in the original CPM consequently allowed for high jumps through teleporters and head bounces, both of which are absent in Q2.

I'm pretty certain that Q2's double jump is a bug (I did not find evidence suggesting otherwise, including quick glance over qcommon/pmove.c code). Q2 is known for having fixed some of the jumping bugs earlier, like v3.14 had removed the "jump on landing" trick.

Aircontrol is not a bug, here's a quote from Q2 v3.15 changelog: player movement code was re-written to be similar to that of NetQuake and later versions of QuakeWorld. Player has more control in the air and gets a boost in vertical speed when jumping off the top of ramps (end of quote), but in v3.18+ aircontrol was disabled (sv_airaccelerate = 0; to mimic v3.15/NQ/QW behavior should be set to 10). Note that the rampjump is also not a bug.

So it's 50/50(lets call it that anyway). But in any case you should not be against properly developed mechanics because "well let's hope we get a super cool bug" is not really a way to develop a game, is it? I mean there may be thousands of such cool bugs scattered through all sorts of games but if the game in itself is not developed well enough to keep a community engaged in it there's slim to none chance that they will ever be found let alone perfected and exploited to the limit which lets you appreciate how cool they are.

Fair enough. Perhaps I was a bit tough on triple jumps, subconsciously comparing it against UT's double-jumping, dodge-jumping, wall-dodging, and shield-jumping crap, which all remind me of this video featured previously on ESR.

It depends on how you define "new game", really. Some people on this website focus a lot on the nuances (10+ years of playing a game will do that) but others paint with much broader strokes. To someone completely new to the Arena FPS genre, CPM looks identical to QL to them (I know because I have lots of gamer friends who do not recognize the difference -- even between Unreal and Quake). The whole debate between which game has better movement is laughably irrelevant to these people. If you told someone who is new to Arena FPS, "yo, try this new 'arena fps' that's inspired by but not a clone of CPM", they would assuredly have no clue what you're talking about. This is a nuance within this very small community.

Also, VQ3/QL owes a lot to Q1/QW, so really it is not anything "new" either. Aircontrol in QW existed well before the VQ3/QL movement system so, in actuality, CPM movement is closer to the original Quake than VQ3/QL.

I also disagree entirely with talk about a movement "sweet spot" other people have mentioned in this thread. Movement cannot be isolated from other aspects of the game like weapon balances, items and how they work, modes, etc.. Moreover, I disagree the average FPS player (including all games, not just Arena FPS games) don't enjoy fast gameplay. They totally do. That was, initially, what made Quake what it is -- besides being on the bleeding edge of graphics, it was also action packed, fast and fun shooting. Back in the old days, Quake was the fast game. Now there are non-Arena FPS games that play just as fast, if not faster, than QL does today (especially on certain QL maps). You might laugh at the comparison, but look at the direction games like CoD and Halo have gone -- they've introduced additional movement aspects like airdashes and ground sliding to make the game play faster.

Lastly, please stop with the attempts to objectively critique the movement. Triple jump, in my mind, is no different than double jump or chainjumping. It can indeed be gimmicky but so is circle jumping and strafe jumping. It is a "gimmick", if you really want to boil it down. They make the game faster than if it were all just +forward at 320 ups.

I apologize for not making it clear that my hypothetical potential "arena FPS" gamer had prior knowledge of what CPM is.

Secondly, I did not mention anywhere that my opinion of triple jump was the one true objective stance someone could have on it. What's more is that I made it clear that my criticism of it lies with the dumb things it makes mapmakers tend towards.

Finally, I am familiar with the other Quake games and their mechanics, having played them all. In fact, I would much prefer a QW clone to a CPM clone.

I'm not sure what your goal is in picking apart my every word since I remember seeing you say that you are open to the implementation of experimental changes.

What "experimental changes" have you suggested?

The game was marketed as a spiritual successor to CPM that wasn't afraid to try new shit. The onus isn't on me to design the game. Anyway, despite us both being open to the game changing up the formula (which we both know, at this point, is final) I think there is too much of a disparity in our attitudes for us conversing to ever be constructive. Ignored, seeya.

A couple more thoughts:

The way I see it, let map editors do what they please. It doesn't mean their maps will get played. If they make a map full of gimmicky triple jumps, I can't imagine, over time, it remaining a popular map. Of the most popular 1v1 maps in Reflex right now, I know of only 1 (Ruin) that has an explicit triple jump in it...

Why would you prefer a QW clone to a CPM clone? I thought you said CPM was your favorite game of all time?

I wouldn't put triple jump in the same row with classic Q2'ish double jump, circle jumping and strafe jumping. In my opinion, deliberately introducing new movement features greatly increase the chances of dumbing the movement down rather than making it more versatile and harder to master. Just compare RA jumps on Aerowalk in QW/Q2/QL and games like Urban Terror or UT2k4 which had introduced wall jumping/dodging among other things — not to say that TJ is as fake and bogus as those, but I'd rather not take the risk and keep the movement pure (note that pure does not imply bug-free, quite on the contrary actually ;-).

Actually I find stairjump to RA harder in Reflex precisely because of the triple jump. The lack of wallclipping also makes the normal strafe to RA slightly more difficult. It doesn't make everything easier as you seem to think...

#105 "The addition of triple jumps is fucking retarded. All it does is encourage mapmakers to make Sick Triple Jump Spots where you jump from the bottom of the map to the top lol"

#60 "In fact when someone is performing a trick is the best moment to attack... why? well, the big moves are very mechanical and you can't shoot while doing these tricks, it's not like we press one button and the trick just magically happens. You need skill and timing to perform these."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W-Zq63SioY

you can see how he tries to perform the triple jump outside RA to the top but my positioning and weapon selection just ruins his trick because he's unable to shoot me

I am aware that you can punish people who try to triple jump at the wrong time lol

...different melee weapon, different hitboxes (and playerheight), different armor protection, different air control, different sound system, different spawn system, graphical megahealth indicator, different knockback system.

Is like saying CS 1.6 is a vastly different game from CS:GO

The only thing it really has in common with CPM is aircontrol, and even that is different.

Is like saying they both have an AK-47, and even they are different.

Reflex in its current shape is a modernized CPM.

edit: not to say that makes any difference to me. I don't hate CPM. I've played it. It's simply not the most enjoyable deathmatch experience for me, and the experience I get from playing Reflex (currently) is almost exactly the same feeling I get playing CPM.

No, I did not say it's a VASTLY different game, just that it's a different game.

it certainly feels different if you switch from one to another but if you never played cpm or reflex it will pretty much feel the same...

you are absolutely right, reflex to cpm is like csgo to cs1.6

but thats fine. the problem is, that alot of people are questioning reflex' right to exist with a "its just cpm/why don't you play cpm?"-argument, when really, thats perfectly fine.

dota -> dota2
cs1.6 -> csgo
cpm -> reflex

you could tell all those players of these really popular games to just go play dota/cs1.6.

the only games that kind of behave like that but are really a moneygrab are the yearly renewed versions of fifa games, which are basically a patch to the previous version.

Old formulas being updated into modern games with modern features (particularly social features) is an excellent idea and I don't have a problem with it. But this particular old formula didn't have much play even back in the day, so why recreate it (near exactly) is beyond me.

Personally I think it wasn't a problem with the formula but just circumstances that stopped CPM from being as popular. VQ3 was the official game and therefore got more support for tournaments and marketing. CPM was a mod and, for some, that was a barrier to entry since they needed to a) hear about the game and b) install it. After a few years, both vq3/QL and CPM were essentially "dated" compared to newer games coming out but vq3/QL survived better because of a larger community and more support by a large game developer.

I beg to disagree. CPM was pretty well known within the community, and vQ3 vs. promode flame wars were omnipresent. If you were into any Quake and not totally deaf or ignorant you would've heard about it. Not to mention that CPMA became the standard competitive mod after OSP development had stalled and was used on pretty much all major tournaments world-wide.

vQ3/QL survived better because larger fraction of community prefers its physics and gameplay, not because CPM was unheard of or hard to install.

CPM was maybe known to current vq3 players but to others, I doubt it was well known.

From what I've seen in the CS:GO community, there is a strong narrative that suggests the differences between 1.6 and GO are enough to suggest a vastly different way to playing the game. Things like gun changes, money changes, movement changes, etc... developed new/other ways of playing the game that were not possible int he past, with the addition of making previous methods of playing inaccurate. As a result, and in many ways, GO is a vastly different game from 1.6, and suggesting otherwise because they share the same IP, weapons, general cosmetics is also incorrect.

I'm not going to sit here and write a novel so I'll just say CSGO is fucking bad compared to 1.6 in addition to being on a bad engine that has worse netcode than its predecessor from 50 years ago somehow.

What does that have to do with my point?

Oh yeah I guess I forgot to mention my point: I disagree with you because GO is only a "new game" in that it's a shitty version of the old, good one. FWIW though I do think Reflex has potential but whether that potential is likely to be realized is another story.

I didn't say it was a new game...

The fundamentals remain largely unchanged. Pistols and SMG's are more viable, flashes are weaker, smokes are stronger, cool. It's still CS all the way around.

The fundamentals of hockey are largely unchanged, but I don't think anyone would say the 80's, 90's, and current game are "the same." There have been lots of small changes that have had tremendous impact insofar as one who is embedded in the game are concerned. I think the same things could be said of CS:GO, and by the time it's done, Reflex.

Still hockey though

So is pond hockey but doesn't mean that it's the same as NHL hockey, or rather, it does mean that they are vastly different.

You are beyond fucking stupid Praxis. If you say that there's hardly any difference then you must have used +forward only with no one on the server and decided to quit.

You're right, I am beyond stupid: so far beyond it that I'm actually intelligent. So intelligent in fact, that I can recognise two things that are pretty much exactly the same. So amazingly intelligent, that I can disagree with people without weakly attempting insult as a means of making my argument appear real to myself.

Why so mad? :))

this is a pretty interesting idea actually... but haven`t all mods who became popular later on ( like dota,cs) had a popular game to start with? like wc3 or half-life...

i think it could be difficult getting people to play a mod for reflex, when so few people play the core game in the first place...

Because it's not an official Quake game, and thus it will never, ever be embraced by the Quake community at large. And the Quake community is right in this: Reflex is clearly on shakier ground in terms of long term viability than QL could possibly ever be, no matter how little of a fuck id gives about QL (and I say this as Reflex player, mind you).
If you belive otherwise due to a circlejerk of 20-30 ESR users who keep repeating the same crap over and over, you're a deluded fool (not that I'd expect anything else of ESR users).

I'm not really following: what is it that those ESR users keep repeating?

That if Reflex supported VQ3 it would take over QL.

That's bullshit, ye. If they do anything that is a) already done or b) similar to something that's already done they don't have a chance.

I think you could have said the same of league of legends in 2009 wrt to dota.

What I really want is a CS mod

i look forward to one day playing dis game

I heard these ammo boxes will be the end of quake live.

Ammo boxes! What's next, players?

one step closer to quake perfection

if only we could have reflex netcode and engine for QL :(

for me the biggest strength of reflex are the engine and netcode. And the optimisations, it runs so smoothly and it looks so pretty.

quakelive with reflex engine + netcode + optimisations and with the reflex developpers working on it would be the perfect game tbh. :D

that said i enjoy CPM gameplay. Tbh i like both CPM and vQL. I hate vQ3 because of 100dmg rail, slow rockets, floaty movements etc. But i like the current QL's gameplay a lot, because it's still fast-paced compared to 99% of the others FPS, and most importantly it's !!!!quake!!!! and... it's a very balanced gameplay (80dmg rail, faster rockets, bit weaker lg and less floaty movements make it a very enjoyable experience).

tbh it's rather easy to adapt from vq3 to cpm as it's rather easy to adapt from cpm to vq3. If you have enough motivation for it it's not difficult at all really. I don't understand all the whine about "but i don't like cpm it's too fast and less strategical". Bullshit. It's just that you're used to vq3 gameplay for like 1413453524 years, you are now 30+ years old and if there any tiny gameplay difference, you start to say "blablabla too fast, blablabla too slow, blabla not like the game i'm used to play"...

i agree tho that there's not enough players playing it, it's the biggest problem for me imho. If only turbo pixel had BLIZZARD's money :(

What's wrong with QL's netcode compared to Reflex?

ql's netcode is decent actually. But for example in reflex when you play with 100+ms ping you can still hit a lot with LG (ion cannon in reflex) whereas in ql it's a completely different story.

i tried to play with 110-120ms ping in both ql and reflex, and the difference is huge, reflex feels a lot smoother, a bit like CPMA or WSW.
In QL with such a ping you lg acc drops drastically (something close to -10, -15% lg), it's not the case in reflex/cpma/wsw.

also i usually play with 38-50ms ping in reflex and ~45ms ping in quakelive, and it feels a bit better in reflex, feels more consistent/solid.

What's in the ammo boxes? Skins?

hats!

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but the way to save Arena FPS is NTF!

and CTFS

That could be dope as f once stake gun is added to the mix!

Ahh, #ntfpickup.
Meemories

Nice update, now add weapon dropping and tdm is born.

\m/_[-.-]_\m/

All 8 players will be grateful.

8?! Finally we have enough players!.... was getting tired of 3v3 CTF.

del

I think they said that they will be redoing the weapon and armour pickups to make them solid too instead of holograms.

fuck off seriously. the fast weaponspawn made the game playable in duel. now its the same weaponcontrol like in quake. if you are loosing, no chance of picking up weaponry. if no ammo, then good luck kid cause the ammo box is on the other side.

Lol...

That's kinda a map design issue cause some maps work much better with 15s weapon respawn versus 5s, or more/less ammo.

Did Reflex have linux support in the past or is it just my bad memory?
searched on the forums real quick and got nothing.

more curious than it matter

NO, it didn't have and not going to have nor linux nor os x support

maybe not soon but once the game gets out of alpha in the next year it probably will...

Thanks for the replies. So bad memory then. Was gonna install it on my linux laptop and play with the console the other day and noticed. Previously always though it had.

it was one of their kickstarter goals. Thats why i was wroting an article about it on gamingonlinux.com anyway.
One of the many things among proper textures that were cancelled when kickstarter failed and they got no money for this

Linux version isn't cancelled. Not sure where you read/heard this. There's simply bigger priority features to spend development time on right now.

best afps there is atm, hope devs keep the good work.
On a side note: Where did diabotical go?

He showed a bit of it last night
https://www.twitch.tv/2gd/v/61019913
Ingame about 55 minutes in

all talk, you're either good or bad.