8rd

2th

2st

7nd

^ This shit is getting out of hand.

4rd

jelly coz u aint 5st

early days of quake3.... discussing team tactics for hours.

Yep those were the days. I think that's gone completely though....
At least I haven't had any discussion about stuff like that for many years. (and I have played team games in ql ye ;p)

Only tactic in QL is +forward LG amirite?

well for tdm not really.
In tdm you can defend a lot better than in duel because there are more of you ;)
So you can solve this fairly good.

But even in tdm the 'lg timing' is very important... and well... it used to be that all weapon times were fairly important. Nowadays most weapons are ignored. People pretty much time lg and rail.

(the 2nd paragraph is somewhat due to lack of insight into tdm though... if you would 'move as a team' better then other weapons gain importance)

The way you reply to trolling almost takes all the fun out of it :(


Nice reply tho. :)

It's not entirely true. Weapon like RL and per map SG and PG are IMO super useful to time (cycle at least) to make it easier for the guys on the key positions or have yourself a weapon attacking those key positions. It's still about weapon denial because SG and RL are beastly in TDM due to lower average stacks. Lower average stacks and scarcer ammo than in duel also provides more weapon vs weapon variety and more dynamical fights also making it more fun to play than duel.

The most obvious example that hardly anyone at TDM pickup seems to get is on purgatory to time the top rockets at least and use it to rain havoc on top rail/window area. I'd even go as far that getting that RL is more important than getting the rail on that map because it ensures you have a weapon to attack the next rail and the positional effect is just so strong (window is clear -> shafter has easy time getting shafts and reds -> shafter gets stronger quadruns + you get tons of spawn frags up there). There are similar examples on other maps that are not apparent on the average level of TDM.

Now the real reason IMO why the other items/weapons get lesser attention is how the communication works. I've noticed that the less the team speaks about irrelevant information, the easier it is for me to keep track of secondary items because the team voice chat doesn't interfere with my inner 'monologue'. At past TDM used to have coaches who used to keep track of the item timings for the teams, clearing lots of the team voice chat (it's a limited resource) allowing more on-the-fly tactics to be discussed/planned/called. Now the air time is filled with people just shouting timings and occasional enemy positions for 20 minutes. Not too interesting.

Edit:

Also it seems that ID is pretty incappable of analysing the gameplay itself: what do you actually do during the 10 or 20 minute period and what do you actually have to think about while doing it. Concept of attention and what the game requires you to fill it with. I find timing the most boring thing in the world because it takes way too much of your verbal working memory for such a mundaine task. I guess this is a topic for some other thread.

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with though.

"Nowadays most weapons are ignored."

Not really disagreeing. Just elaborating that it's not always so, it doens't have to be so and why it's so.

(the 2nd paragraph is somewhat due to lack of insight into tdm though... if you would 'move as a team' better then other weapons gain importance)

But ok thx for the elaboration, I agree with it in general :p

Stark contrast too playing with/against allstars,qpo and ic were we basically shrugged and said "kill them more then they kill us".
Seemed to work :D

I think it goes in cycles and the game would have developed more tactically again, as we saw at the start of QL.

Tdm has the tendincy to not leave alot of room for tactics and alot more for reaction.
One being the ability to drop items, another is the fact that most teams purely cycle items and gather for quad.

Its been the same for 14years, the difference is that people aim alot better today. :)

theres lots of room for tactics :)

But nowadays players are so fixated on 'their thing' that they are not really open to other ideas ;p (at least in my experience)

There is an overall strategy but no tactics.
The game is just too chaotic as is, change up some stuff and tweak weapon balance and tactics would make sense tho.

This is just What i have observed, if you want more definitive answers you should talk to either fox or toxic as they were apart of the team.

They didn't really play that stupid though :p
The reason why their playstyle seemed stupid/individualistic (at least for IC) was because when they killed more than 2 people they would quickly (yet as save as possible) spread out over the map into area's with spawn-places.

So their 'offensive plan' was to deny fresh spawners the option to stack up. Which at that time was kind of unheard of... Most teams played a heavy possition based game.... And IC also had a heavy possitional play, but only when they were pressured hard enough.

Still, there was no discussion. It was a reaction and adaptation to the game itself.
Going with the flow if you will..

Plus why would you call it stupid if it Works?

I wouldn't know if they didn't come up with that playstyle after talking about it quite a lot and trying out different options etc... My personal estimation would be that someone came up with the idea for a much more agressive playstyle.

I would call "kill them more then they kill us" an oversimplification / kinda stupid.

Ofcourse its an oversimplification, but its not far from the truth.
Adapting after peoples playstyle is one thing.
Ic got alot more aggressive when belch joined.
While allstars got alot more defensive When say randlock started playing with them.

Same can be said When i was playing for c58, when i was playing we adopted an aggressive style cause i would bruteforce into areas. Playing against ic we would tone it down
Eitherway, we never discussed it and just reacted.

Having been sitting across ic When they play i noticed they were doing the same.

Shame :(
When I joined PZZ and discussed tactics, mainly, with Sick, sharing the conclusions with the rest of the team, they suddenly went from top4 in nl to top8 in eu ;) (I myself didn't have good enough internet at that time to play frequently, and had some irl things going on etc.)

It's actually quite stupid never to discuss these things... but I guess that most teams which have a lot of raw power never get the idea on how they should play....
Kinda like strenx as a duel player... funny :D

Stupidity is not adapting.
Doesnt matter how you do it as long as it happens.

I would guess your discussions manifested in players adopting different mindsets to playing the game.

ofcourse, several. But without discussing them it's hard to make everyone see it the same way.

But also things like how can we synchronise attacks better. (a lot of sneaky things are there to be won ;pp)

One example would be attacking the ra area on dm6. Which back then was always covered by at least 1 and possibly 2 opponents.
What you would do is get 2 people near the jumppad (aka comming from lg at fairly high speed at a certain second). And you'd get someone from rl to walk into the ra room a second earlier.
The guy on red would take out rail, if there was a 2nd guy he'd jump towards you with lg. The guy insticitively fires a rail at you -> the 2 ppl at jumppad can jump up without being hit by anything. If possible the guy from rl would fire a rocket towards the guy jumping at him (such that he had to keep looking that way to dodge the rocket). --> ra won (pretty much always).

edit: btw the goal of that was not to give only fixed solutions to a problem but to make people realize that even if they call an attack which they themselves would die in. It could be beneficial for the team.
Aka the guy on RL will "engage the fight" and he'll most likely die as a result. But he gives 2 teamies a save way into the fight = positive for the team.

Theres stuff like that, how to attack certain areas but that s pretty much it.
Tactics are more prominent in qw and q2 imho.

Mostly because they have too, spawning with blaster/shotty makes you evaluate a situation a bit.

I would really want too see What purri has to say about this matter.
Purri or Liefje feel free t chime in...
If the actually read this ;3

I wouldn't really know about qw / q2 tdm tactics :(
Just know how my teams 'solved' things in q3.

RoX was still the best team evahhhh though :D

All hail SML, the benchmark of swedish teams.
A fun memory, they would discuss tactics prior to every game and end up loosing 400-0.

Gotta commend woodgrove & Co for pure dedication :D

We actually did good with RoX.... just died due to too many members having irl engagements (mostly uni).
The members kinda split up into 3 teams though. x4 (MaDDoG), pzz (me) and -==- (ShaFt and Lucky).
Although I hardly played a match for pzz for the above mentioned reasons ;p

Hm, guessing maddog was dutch. Remember playing with a swedish team were we had a maddog and unicum.
On second thought it Could have been j-dog, Dunno if anyone remembers invictus.

we were all dutch ye.

I know that swe had a 'madfrog' or smth as well as a player? (maybe you're thinking of him)

Madfrog was a proffessional sc/wc3 player.
Think i mixed up with someonr else.

http://www.maclabbet.com/woodgrove/sml/screenshots.html
Speaking of SML, found these goodies

Dated around 2002!

It might still be "kill them more then they kill us" on a fundamental level, but it's still "kill you more then you kill me", these are the invariants of the game. The aim is to get more points than your opponent, HOW you're going to do it is where strategy comes in. That's where it becomes interesting.

Strategy yes, tactics not so much.

Love talking tactics. I think we will do some more of those 2 hour videos about the maps!

from my experience with ET, i can say the older the game the harder to find something innovative that actually would work.

after some time on every map 2-3 most efficent ways to play clarify. from that point its just matter of execution.

For the love of god please stop saying 'let's face it' vor, especially in the context of FACEIT! :D Nice show.

yeah ha

they bring up some great points, faceit, ddk and zoot should take notes. even though It's another story to actually put those ideas into practice

We can talk, but we need to show actions too. I think we sounded a little too critical of faceit and maybe ddk though.

I think you guys were dead on with the 'it feels too safe' and how very middle of the road with what is and isn't said on stream. Sometimes the caster's 'emotions' feel really forced or, not sure how else to say it.. cookie cutter. While other times seemingly out of place(?)

Like.. 'Wow.. what a fight. both players are very low and have backed off to heal up.. OH MY GOD CYPHER JUST TOOK THE FIFTY HEALTH BUBBLE MY MIND IS BLOWN... cypher hit 100% lg in the last two fights. cypher wins dream hack. hoo. ray.'

As if the volume of voices and when to be 'excited' is really oddly timed. I don't know how else to say this.

To be fair, faceit run the risk of becoming complacant. They have no competition outside of zoots efforts and quite frankly there is no monetary incentive for them to give a modicum of effort to try and improve.
Ql media is surviving on love and goodwill alone at this point.
:)

I love these guys

Love you more!

i still wait for invitation

lol

im known esritist with interesting opinion on any topic.

deal with it.

where can i get a shirt like that?

I think I got it from Tesco

I'll buy you one if u make another movie.

enjoyed it!
will go back and check out the previous ones

listening to these guys makes me wanna play TDM

I was just thinking the exact same thing when I listened to this a few minutes ago :)

PLAY MORE TDM

These guys have the right idea about fps and team modes.
Also the points about strafe jumping & co. are very true. The problem the Quake community (me included, lolz) always has is that it's hard to take a step back and look at the game and the genre from a neutral perspective

I disagree about what dis says about the new player experience. New players should ideally not be playing an easier mode that is not competetive. The main team mode of the game should be easy to play and have a high skill cap - otherwise you will end up with a community subset like in QL where 50% of all people play mostly clan arena and the "esport" itself is still a niche.
Team modes allow for a higher skill cap than 1v1 because people can always learn as a team and that's "easier" in general.

so its interesting this time? no sexism bs?

should i check it out?

Sure

u lied to me. its boring i almost feel asleep.

I tried to throw in 1 sexist remark

I can see that. But I think you just push people through the tiers quicker and make it clear what the changes are. You also rank them accordingly with borderline derogatory titles in the early stages. i.e. first rank is "newbie" eventually the top rank is "pro" or something along those lines. You achieve awards every time you step up and all pro tournaments would be in the "pro" level tier.

And step by step I mean literally like 50 tiers.

Problem is that There is nothing enforcing tiers.
The game wouldnt have to be dumbed down because the players themselves manage to do it for us.

An example is to look at league of legends, the game at lower divisions are vastly different at the top while still being the exact game.

Im talking about matchmaking btw,.

lol is a good example for what I mean.

This was a great episode! Looking forward to the next and the one after -- I genuinely enjoy the atmosphere in these.

Yeah its just a fairly relaxed chat. We actually spoke for another hour and a half after!

Not recording that seems pretty unfair now.

I love podcasts. I would love to go back on and chat for another few hours. Koz is really interesting himself actually and has some great insight.

We have considered for a few years doing a podcast ourselves. It is effectively what "We're Talking it!" was. Might start it again as a proper podcast just because its fairly easy to setup and fun to do.

Yea, go for it.
No worries about competing with koziol, I for one would just listen to both!

They could unite their efforts aswell..

Rather have more content right? I listen to about 6 different football podcasts!

I feel ql is far too small to support several podcasts atm.
Would hate too see one get overshadowed by another.

Tho thats my opinion.

IMO podcasts are not the right format for 3+ people having a discussion.

Nearly every podcast I listen to, must be about 20 different ones, consist of 3 or more people discussing various subjects.

Depends on the discussion and format.
3 people is generally fine, more and you need someone moderating the discussion.

You could also have them take turns in hosting as i doubt they are available all the time.

Again, its just my opinion.

I think its what Quake lacks. Loads of different options for content. Different people coming up with new ideas and moving the quality onwards and upwards. Its not a competition anyway its just what can we all create to move Quake forward.

Our steam is massively overshadowed by zootlive and faceit. Should we stop doing steams?

Ofcourse not, but if you got the offer to merge with faceit or zoot would you not consider it?

I just want too see everyone get success.

I would never get that offer so its not worth imagining. They are both business focused and we have no focus.

I will help koz all I can with his podcast I think its great. But he wouldn't/shouldn't have us on every week. So we might as well spend our spare time making another to help promote Quake.

Again, depending on content, you would be hosts and moderators.
Taking a step Back When needed etc.

Anywho, was just a suggestion as i feel having 2 podcasts atm wouldnt make sense as the community atm is really small.
I sincerily hope i am wrong! :)

Yeah I understand your points and it would be fine by me to merge. I was happy to do it with hs.tv back in the day even. Podcasts don't take much resources though. 1 guy to present it is enough.

Was thinking as I listened how terrific it would be for you to bring We're Talking it back, please do ^

first one im gonna listen to

frs my hero

as always i appreciete the community work, but ffs, 50 minutes of serious blablablab is too much

sorry

i dont blame u but koziol whos host of the show

obviously

imo you should be more controversial and provokative. this way you can pull the tonge of your guests much more.

that is valid criticism and I agree

hahahhaa u thought im just talking shit for no reason ?:D

who the fuck knows you stupid pole

I would like to see a real professional TDM league with 10 franchises and a virtual currency salary cap and trades, to avoid teams like colwn forming. After the first season possibly an expansion draft to add two new teams or help fix teams depth so no excuse for a forfiet to ever happen. It was sad to see a great team like XT go inactive because 2 of their core members vanished. TDM needs those kinds of teams to stay around even if the lineup changes. 519 played with all kinds of lineups that history is great for quake. Quake Live is lacking in iconic teams that stick around.

Idea for funding prizes would be a Fee for who ever wants to be the franchise owner or something like that, Franchises would probably start off as free with pages for fans to back them, if they wanted to pay a fee in that way.

Example would be

Franchise: l0wfly
Owner: Funnyb

He'd submit his roster and after the first season skills would be taken into account and value put on each player and a cap will be made for each season since all players value will be raising over time. Funnyb wins MVP his value goes up, starting in a game your value goes up. If l0wfly has a 5th who is active but they never use they can trade him to a franchise who is having problems fielding a 4th.

Its interesting, but at the end of the day people want to play with their friends.

Yeah I figured the friends thing would put people off but it could be made very hard to reach the cap, are stermy,tox and winz really that close of friends? its mainly a colwn rule. colwn is good for lans but online leagues teams like colwn aren't good for the community. Predicting who will win a long league in week 1 ruins the interest.

My vision for the league would be like the top 8 mostly the teams that have a very steady lineup, what you see in normal leagues, the newer teams basically mixed lineups just new people getting involved trying to build something together outside of just playing pu tdm all day. The people who feel they can only participate in draft tournaments because they don't have 3 close friends.

well this could be easily done right now if people wanted a proper tdmpickup league. similar to draft but instead of 1 day of games, its 1 game per week for a while in a league format.

that is what i was originally thinking, a draft to form the franchises, but I thought their would be less flaking off if people started with their own lineup/clan. As the seasons went on hopefully enough interest for expansion teams would be formed and the people drafted as reserves could build up trust to fill a void on teams for people who become inactive. Possibly even have a small reserve tournament people competing under l0wfly tag in a reserve league with restriction of must have started under certain percentage of games to be a reserve. Almost like your own farm system. 2v2,3v3,4v4 would all be acceptable for matches in the reserve league.

I think its better if its not from people's own lineups, that kinda defeats the whole purpose of a draft?

Draft would be best thing but like dis says people want to play with friends, I think a long league would have a lot of people flaking out with an initial draft, so I thought the draft should be more of a depth building option and expansion teams option. Being drafted as a reserve you'd still be competing too and a really good reserve would end up starting in theory. Would be a draft at end of season for teams to add depth and filll an expansion team if enough interest, players would be drafted from two pools reserves and free agents. Reserves would have the option of staying on their team if they wanted though.

I could also see a season 1 draft being a necessity too though as most of the active tdm teams, don't have enough to field a reserve team so a reserve draft would be needed to fill the reserve league.

IMO its better to have 10 very stable teams as opposed to 20 fragile teams, and expand as needed. Added depth also adds the ability for inter clan scrims you aren't just starters and reserves you really learn to play with each other and get to know one another, which is why the option for a reserve choosing to remain a reserve even if drafted to a starting spot on a new team.

FUCK YES.

Poster <3

I liked koziol's insight about dota. Shows how faintly quake players know about the skillsets in dota))

can't argue with that hehy

what did he say

Dota and lol (in this case true :D) is just clicking abilities and stuff happens. Don't think he is aware of skillshots, blink dagger, etc.

i just checked his profile and his average accuracy is under 20% :::::DDDDD i think learning the mechanical aspect of any game is gonna be tough on this guy ::::::::DDDDDDDD

::::::::::::::::::::DDDDDDDDDD


you know nothing about me

at least then i know the both of us spout stupid shit about stuff we really dont know, but only one of us have the decentcy to limit that to something as trivial as the esr comment section

obviously literally one wrong, throw away sentence about dota in quake podcast makes me know nothing.

so then, whats ur merit for dota?

listen to the show

pass x7

POLACHKA WIN SCORE IS 3 TO 1

\o/
this one was ez to do for kozel :DD

Should've been longer. I like the idea of keeping your show to the 1 hour mark, but at the same time, if you feel you've got great guests like vor and Disrepute, you gotta go for a longer episode.

I'm split about length limits. I listen to loads of podcasts. Some are 40 mins and others 3 hours. I switch from liking one form to the other.

I absolutely prefer pods to be 40-60 minutes tops. I have no problem listening to multiple casts if I have time, but the 40-60 minutes is so much easier to listen to and digest regardless of what your current free time / workflow is.

Definitely. I think the show should adapt to its guests, however. Do I want to hear 3h of koziol talk to Liefje? Not really. Just like if koziol can get a guy like Rapha on, and the topics and conversation is flowing, don't be so hard on the 1h limit.

However, if you get a guy like Cypher or Cooller, who may not be as strong in English, then maybe an hour would be perfect to get a great episode across.

I guess I just wanted to hear more Vor and Disrepute banter!

Great discussion. Love the passion for the team modes. I look forward to seeing (and promoting) Dis and Vor in continuing their reign of casting TDM. (Would love to see some CTF pickup in EU as well, it nearly did last year.)

Hope to really promote teamplay more in 2014. Maybe it will build into something really exciting at QuakeCon.

how about adding some spectator features for teammodes?

Freezetag tournament confirmed for quakecon 2014

Team play builds community! Could we suggest some features to help streaming?

Yes, I'm all for suggestions and am looking to implement some features to improve teamplay spectating before QuakeCon rolls around.

We have a lot of changes planned, more this year than ever I would say. So now is a good time to go over suggestions, even if they are ideas that have been noted in the past.

random spawns, plz -_-

Part of what makes Poker great to watch is that you know more than the players you're watching know.

Make it like this more so - wall hack is a good thing for speccing. A visual aid to let people know the other guys health would be a huge plus. IE: A skin - healthy is green, unhealthy red until dead. You could make it really obvious once they reach below a certain level of HP. You don't always hear the sounds.

Would make spectating easier on people.

Also you should have timers on every item that respawns. Just little numbers ticking away over the powerup, or a powerup slow fade in - something visual that doesn't clutter up the screen like the current timers.

correction: wall hack is a good thing.

Good cast, thanks guys.

The strafejump issue seems easy to fix. Add autohop like wsw.

Late last year cybergamer in australia launched a wsw ladder/league. Quite a few players came from other games. They could move decently relatively quickly - these were players from cod or cs. Modern FPS.

The one thing wsw has done right (not starting arguments about other aspects of that game) is this. It is new player friendly. It makes it easy to concentrate on the important part - mouse direction + strafe direction instead of pressing the jump button. Even ignoring mouse direction + strafe you can move smoothly with autohop compared to manually jumping.

Apparently if you do not use autohop you can move better.

Mmm dunno

Damn I in general dont like english accents that much... My gf is english.. still dont like it.. but somehting about disreputes voice.. its so nice to listen too haha good episode look forward to next one! ;)

I hate australians tbh

hehe :>

Feels like couple aristocrats casting Quake :P

http://imgur.com/7VrGdLb

spelled QUAKE wrong :)

Lol not quite! Wish I was more well spoken

usually aussies and americans hate it!

thanks to leveluptv now i know Trash80 :)

nice btw, i enjoyed it!

hehe, same. I always think of tdm & quake whenever it comes up in one of my playlists!

Trash80 rocks!!!

Keep up the good work Koz.

Just one thing - please add some background music.

Cheers.

I think the background music would distract

first episode I ever listened to! Loved it!

Listen to more!

Jolly good show.

just wanted to say thanks koziol, I really enjoyed this one. Always a pleasure to listen to dis and vor and you're making a great job. Please keep it up. And looking forward to the follow-up with those two!

ESR* best team ever

good show... intresting points made. I really hope the current duel streams take note, specially about interviews and making a name and character for the players in their streams. It really sucks if you are new to watching the game having to go to a website to know who evil cypher or even cooler are (and the information sometimes isnt even there).