I always liked the approach of having a casual and a competetive mode.

one thing that can be done is have servers where the autojump settings are always on and servers where it is always off.

that way the newbies could stick to their autojump servers and be left alone. while the hardcore players could be on their manual jump servers and not have to deal with any newbies.

^ This. Why not implement a casual AND a pro mode? This would even motivate new players to learn the pro mode, because they would feel ashamed lingering somewhere in the casual ladders.

EDIT: However doing this splits the game in half already.. but i've heard other interesting propositions talking about simplifying the movement part for the newbies, while still being able to play against players who choose to play with advanced movement. In this case you could give a slight advantage to the advanced movement users, such as a bit higher speed or more air control (if there will be any).

I think what developers need to do nowadays to appeal to the "masses" is develop intuitive approaches to allow new players to LEARN to be better. Whether this be tutorials, matchmaking protocols, "casual" servers/modes, or some other form of direct teaching.

The game isn't what is needed to be dumbed down, the game just needs to allow players to learn how to be better and become great.

didn't quakelive have tutorials? it did nothing for quakelive.
casuals do not want to learn movement. period. ffs, casual's hatred of movement skills is why they all fled to slow ass counterstrike back in the day.

autojump settings wouldn't dumb the game down.
anyone who is above a casual player will just play on servers that don't have it or remove the settings in their cfg.


edit: i agree with you about matchmaking
that is extremely important to have in todays market.

needs good + extensive tutorials

i went thru the quakelive tutorials for the heck of it a while back.
they weren't bad at all :/

if there were more tuts like the one 2gd did for basic strafe jumping, thatd be nice for beginners

theyre 100% useless

You do realize that Quake3 was popular BECAUSE of casual players, right?

Unfortunately, nowadays with the current generation of gamer essentially being spoon fed, developers need to create approaches that allow a new player to learn in an environment that eliminates the frustration of learning <insert skill>, yet teaches them how. Matchmaking protocols are huge, especially with high skill ceiling games like SC2 and Quake. Therein lies the issue with developers. The easy route would be to make the game simple, non-complex and easy to master, rather than simple, complex and hard to master.

And sorry but anything that 'automatically' does something for someone does dumb down the game. If there exists a movement mechanic that requires skill, then teach them. Like teioh said, they need to be extensive, not just CHECK THIS OUT DOODZ! And have a defrag video playing in the background.

yes, but it didnt last long in modes besides instagib and ctf
you should know more than anyone.
aren't you a tdmer from the west coast?
you used to be able to find daily tdm matches without issue back in the day.
then things started changing for the worse around 2002.
hell, you probably could say q3/ql tdm has been dead on the west coast since 2003!

meanwhile, cod tdm is the most popular game being played right now. why is quake tdm in such bad shape compared to cod tdm?
it surely cant all be because of lack of tutorials and a leveling up system.

cod is the exact opposite to qw, which is what you propose reborn should be. Also qw tdm is dead in your location as well.

cod:
- fast paced: nope
- autojumps settings or servers: nope
- hard movement: nope
- unbalanced weapons: not like qw
- keep the weaponlist/powerup system simple: nope

*inb4 fat said this and that (if someone can understand with his pronunciation)*

I think the game needs to have more room for sandboxing, like SC2, thats hard ass hell but still, you can practice against bots or even without bot and it gives result in a duel.

Perfect would be as 2gd said, it should be fun just to jump around the map, learning different angles without the pressure of the opponent but still dont get bored to death.

Well Team Fortress 2 fits what you have said, there is a pub side to it, and the competitive scene is doing fine also, in Europe and NA.

and... its free :)

we need to attract casuals by making movement harder than quake live? what? and the answer to that is autohop? yeah that worked really well for warsow or xonotic.

just make run speed a fast pace like 500-600 ups and have circle jumps or maybe wall jumps for more advanced movement.

so quakelive with walljumps?
yawn.

you can't even compare warsow and xonotic to reborn.
reborn is using a famous developer and will have 100x more publicity than warsow and xonotic combined(thanks to 2gd).

what does quake live have to do with my post? doom if anything. i'm saying to get rid of strafe jumping or bunnyhopping all together.

my point is keeping the speed/skill of quake but removing the entry barrier of having to spend weeks or even months learning do something as basic as move around and without having a convoluted double movement system like you propose.

i'd give that a shot, but i really believe jumping would be preferred by most advanced players.
it takes a lot of skill to not bump into walls while bunnyhopping around everywhere. It's fun as hell, too :>

You seem to be very sure of what wouldnt work, its not that easy.

OP has good points, and your version could work too. What deffo is true is that RB must have some core changes to succeed.

Hell i hope 2gd takes this in Consideration, or has to learn from this post

havent read ur post besides first line, and yes, there are games that work on both casual and compeditive level. dota (and copies) are great on compeditive level, and its not becuase lol-stunts where company behind the game pushes with million of dollars. dota1 was compeditive since early 2000's in wc3 engine.

what i think is behind it working well both for casual and compeditive purposes is that even if u do your own thing on the side, you still end up being a player in the team (with the proper setup.) also its not a grindive game as fps's, where you have to practice certain hours a day to progress in terms of movement, aim and whatnot.
more or less all of the time decisions > * in dota, making it work on all skill levels, as long as its not too unevenly matched player pool.

what i see stopping quake from being a populare game is the amount of practice one needs to be able to compete on a somewhat decent level :/

sry if comment is out of context, cba reading when u can writing it lmao1!

for anyone concerned that an unbalanced game can't be deep, i'm gonna leave this here




does this really play out much different than highlevel ql aerowalk games?

To attract casual gamers you need to make the game so that the casual gamer will be able to top frag, by the first game he plays, like Cod, Cs and other popular shooters.

And if you have a teammode you should get the feeling of team effort when you win, Quake Tdm is really not a team effort until high level. One person is top fragging, the other 3 is just dragging him behind, and he will state that after the game.

this guy gets it.
for reborn to get the casuals,
they need to dumb down the toughest aspects of the game, so newbies can start enjoying themselves right away.
the hardcore will never jump ship to this game, so using autohop for newbs is pretty much the only method possible that can please both sides. removing jumping and replacing it with doom running doesn't interest me much. i'd try it, but i doubt it would satisfy me.

you want proof that making a game enjoyable right away matters?
look at gears of war
the game takes a minimum of 10-20 hours multi experience before you can start getting frags online. some people even need more time.
10-20 hours doesn't sound like a lot, but when you are getting your ass handed the entire time, it feels like forever.
gears 3 gets about 15k max people playing at a time.
on the other hand, cod and halo get hundreds of thousands, if not millions at a time!
why? obviously cause theyre easier games and they don't need 10-20 hours(minimum) of a learning curve before you can start fragging.

anyways, i think im done posting on the reborn forum until more info comes out. bbl

Sadly but truly, the winning concept is more frags and less invested hours in playing.

However if you were somekind of super god of making games, you would make a intuitive game so basically if you were a true talent on everything you would be best on this game from the start, while all girls would suck.

To attract casual gamers you need to make the game so that the casual gamer will be able to top frag, by the first game he plays, like Cod, Cs and other popular shooters.

Sorry but this part is absolute bullshit, the average CoD player particularly, they are not even close to being able to top frag even after years of playing. These players spend all their time struggling to get anything more than 1:1 K/D ratio on a good day. But the important part is, it generally doesn't concern them or damage their motivation to play. CoD draws in a wide audience from marketing and hype, it then provides an addictive unlock and leveling system which much like WoW, compels a large percentage of people who try it to continue playing it. The addictiveness of these systems gives continued life to a game that hasn't changed its core gameplay at all in 5 years.

Yes the addictive part is needed to hook the casual gamer, but how do you fit in Level up to get new weapons with an competitive duel game, thats problem, it's a catch 22, Level system = free casual gamers != good competitive gameplay, you cant use the same model for Cod that applies to quake or perhaps reborn( and dont say that cod is a nice competitive game because it isn't its fkin retarded, like a bad version of counter-strike with better gfx).

You just seperate the compettive play with preset modes that don't use that system, and keep the game open to modding/editing of elements that might be unsuited for competition.

Yes, this sounds like the only solution to me, hope any gamedevs tries this.

A good example is battlefield 2, casual to play but the "serious" gamers only played 5v5 infantry only if im right. Not that this was very entartaining to watch aswell but it was better than nothing.

It sounds like the majority will play this easier mode which will then become the defacto standard that represents the game. When people wach a competitive stream and see a different kind of game than they are used to, they won't be so interested.

Besides, Reborn only seems to be known left and right but not widespread. It needs more hype to get more people interested.

And 1 more thing, if I can be honest here, I'm a Quake player, I enjoy the series, I've been playing online since Quake 2 and played some casual games on the side, but if it's not Quake then I think I'll be missing something. Which doesn't mean I won't give it a try and potentially like it better than Quake.

I think it's better than the alternatives, create a dumbed down game that has no chance to provide a good competitive platform. Or create a game that is so challenging that people struggle to play even at the entry-level. At least with what I suggest you can potentially have a game with a large community that will still be able to relate to the competitive scene even if it's not exactly what they themselves play.

Reborn needs to have a popular round based team mode to succeed.
something like TDM just doesn't cut it. nobody wants to realize they're losing for 10 minutes until the timelimit is hit.

with rounds, the game resets periodically and you can enjoy the game again. not to mention there's always a chance to comeback or at least you can have incremental goals like: this set i'll try to win X rounds.

i stumbled into some old ET/RTWC vods and i believe stopwatch is the best team mode ever suitable for an arena/old school FPS. the way it's built up with emphasis on objectives and timer (and not on frags) is just perfect. plus a match has 2 rounds, with a timelimit to beat set by the outcome of the first round. beating the time the first team has set is always exciting and dramatic.

it needs to be UT2k3 with voice taunts, vehicles, proper CTF, and onslaught, and everything else

Maybe they should try Militia?

i coded it all, you should all make maps for the reactor gametype, and some proper reactor models, and big turret static vehicles for a fortress maps

another uninformed wall of text. Did you register for that?

What people want in a fps game is the arcade experience. No need to learn how to play for years but just pick it and have fun.
What you are asking....because it is your personal preference, is a QW clone. Lets face it QW is dead and there are several reasons for that and Q3 stayed for much longer (still does in the form of QL).

If you want to copy something it has to be CoD. Latest ones are so rewarding and fun, black ops 2 has the potential of becoming the very best fps ever, and you can really tell they were made by people that actually know what they are talking about (game developer) instead of some QW tryhard.

qw is easily the most loved quake game
it influenced more games than any other quake game and is still alive after 16 years.
people love it so much they made at least 5 clones of it
pk, dmc, warsow, cpm, and xonotic.
how many clones did q3 get?
quakelive..lol
failed web version that dumbed the game down even more. no surprise a noob like you backs it up so vehemently.

ill just leave this here
RE. If they did Quake 5, would you like it to be more like Quake World?

JWendell. I enjoyed PainkilleR because it was so much like QuakeWorld, fast and action packed with acrobatic fighting. I believe the railgun really slowed down the game. The faster the game, the more excitement and more of the raw skill comes out. Hit and run tactics became very boring, so if Quake 5 was like QuakeWorld, that would be amazing!

First line is an assumption, what isn't one is that no one plays nor cares about QW anymore so it's hardly a "beloved game".

No matter how much you like QW it is 0.0000000000001% of what sells these days, current games are the exact opposite in all gameplay aspects (some would say QW is bad game design, including bunny jumping), and also is the 0.01% of ESR.
Another fact is QL is 1000x bigger than QW, and QL essentially failed because of not being massive enough. What 2gd should aim for is being 10x QL, not aiming to attract the 10 remaining QW players.

All the games you named are doubtfully QW clones. What's a fact though is that no one cares about them either, and that the Q3 engine has been used in dozens of games even to this day.

And Fatality.....cmon. He is history: his stream gets at most 21 viewers (yep that's his peak) and e-sports is 0.0001% of gaming (quake being 0.00000000001%). TBH this shows how much you are away from the industry and the reason why QW players simply cannot have an opinion on what should be done with Reborn.
And it's funny how you always end up naming him out of nowhere in every single of your threads. Are you being paid by him? friend? are you fat?

who cares about how good or bad you were in qw or q3. I'm telling you both aren't relevant these days, and that for making a game you have to ....well, know about games in general and you clearly don't (nor how to write lol).

it's like asking your lover fatality to do a speech. Coincidentally he was a doom3 tester and you know how bad that game's mp was.

edit: actually in the post you replied to I never mentioned anything about your skill level or something that wasn't neutral or related to you whatsoever. Why did you write all that rofl, misclick or ran out of arguments?

wrote a long reply, but decided not to post.
not going to give you the attention you desperately want.
peace

see you until the next retarded new thread. It'll be once again secretly about QW and fatality.

people love it so much they made at least 5 clones of it
pk, dmc, warsow, cpm, and xonotic.

oh, puhlease

Yes, aircontrol stuck. What about doublejumps? Strafing? Walljumping? And the big one - stepup. QW clones my ass.

bunnyhopping(although qw's bhops are superior)
armor system
faster rockets
no footstep sounds
megahealth respawn
similar timers
faster weapon switch

a bit more than just aircontrol.

anyways, i agree with you, i should have used a different word than clone.
cpm and those other games did add a bit of their own mechanics and don't deserve that label.

i'd say something like halo is a better model. plus it was basically bungie's way of making a quake/ut style game that would appeal to more people, so you can take the next step and analyze what's successful in a quake context.

main things from my perspective of having only played a small amount of casual halo would be: slower movement, which prevents totally locking a map and being in someone's face all the time

strong weapons, which make position more important and allow you to set up having a better chance of getting frags if you get the drop on someone.

the other thing is having a large player base and skill matching makes it easier to not run into someone who's put days or months of practice into the 1st map you ever see.

these could be mapped into quake pretty easily. e.g. stronger weapons or faster/slower base movement speed for lower tier players (dunno what is really more fun for beginners... but easy for a company to experiment), more separation of skills (with option to play higher if you want).

there's plenty of other things to fix but they don't matter as much. structuring the game around a concept, like just pure position and a team concept, would prob be better than making something like timing or spawns important. the game is fun, but so many elements that go into the higher level strategy are just cause it's the 1st thing someone designed in 95 or 96.

>slower movement
Slower than Q3? STOPPED READING THERE

The only reason I started with quake was, that I couldnt even make one single frag in 1v1 and I wanted to know how this could be possible, and learn the most difficult game I have had played to that point.

The reason I stuck was because it was hard.

Straight up STEAL from quakelive.

Steal silent fright.

That was fucking epic fun. A lot of people vs a creepy bot. Then the dynamic of tag and survival horror.

That was the ultimate noob quake mode. Newbs had a blast, pros had a blast killing that bot over and over and then chasing bitches around the map with our superior strafing.

It was all around fun as fuck. I'd still be playing it if they had it up.

Yes that gamemode was the bomb, i got 2 of my friends to try out quake just by watching me jumping around and screaming while i was chased by the skeletons

can someone tl;dr it for me please?

RB wont even get developed so thread is pointless

Simple answer is NO! Competitive gamers are interested in options like Picmip while casual gamers care about graphics. Even if the gameplay is complete bullshit as long as it allows you to push your VGA to the max and beyond, that makes it fine for them. It's also a way of justifying the stupid amount of money you got ripped off by paying for the latest GPU. It seems these days people either play old hardcore games for the gameplay, or games that are basically synthetic benchmarks that push your GPU to the limit. I don't get it why, I mean who the fuck likes playing at 30-40fps is beyond me....

For the wrong reasons when people talk about consoles vs pc's. PC users immediately use the most retarded excuse, GRAPHICS, completely ignoring other aspects of why a PC platform is superior.

this post is obnoxiously condescending and full of selfrighteous smug.

i remember playing Q2CTF at the lan outside school with my buddies.

i also remember starting to play CS there. it had nothing to do with the movement, or the aim required to get a kill (though we were getting tired of the rail only nature of Q2).

CS was simply more fun at the time. It introduced settings and weapons that we could identify with and new gamemodes that were totally different to anything else we knew at that time. it was simply more fun to play together as a group. what fun is capturing the flag for the nth time compared to hiding in a bombsite waiting for CT to come defuse then knifing him, or playing as a VIP with your mates defending you, or gamers seek new experiences (aslong as they are pleasant).

in more casual games, a death represents another chance. in quake on the other hand, when you die, you lose everything that you spent the past few minutes working for. winning or losing should not affect your ability to play the game, but thats precisely what quake does - Losing means you dont get to play anymore.

I don't agree.
Overall gamers want to get endorphins/dopamine in their brains.You get this effect when you getting something valuable to you, it doesn't matter what it is.

For casuals it can be anything, basically you have to convince gamer that things(kills, wins, unlocks, perks, runes, learning movement, new characters or new options to use in game) he is obtaining have value. Most important thing is that it doesn't matter how hard it is to get a reward(obviously the harder to get something the more value it usually has), player has to believe it is important and valuable.
Even win as a result of pure luck (like rolling the dice) is good enough for them.

Competitive gamers are convinced that playing better than others is the most valuable thing and because of that, they just don't want to rely on luck to get rewarded constantly.

The tricky part is to build your game to fulfill their needs or better!create their needs and give them constant stream of little rewards with a promise of better ones in future <- addiction

I don't think there's a need to dumb down the game. Just have to make a good matchmaking system where noobs would play noobs and wouldn't get totally crushed when they first start. And add a ladder so they can slowly climb the ranks as they learn the game. Maybe some leveling system where they would unlock new maps skins and gametypes. In QL's case, I don't think it was the gameplay that turned players off back then when it was still hyped but the horrible broken website.

Everyone in every Quake was a newb in the beginning. Their skills are a testament to the time they spent in the game. Reaping the rewards of progression is a feeling no current FPS can equal. This is the way it should be and that is my personal opinion.

Reborn cannot survive in this era based on the paradigm of its predecessors. Gone are the days of patience and perseverance. I set aside my pride to say this is the reality. Compromises must be met and sacrifices must be made in order for Reborn to have a future.

2GD is aiming for a competitive, fast-paced FPS. The problem is new blood. Degrading the mechanics and difficulty of the game to seem appealing is not the answer. New players need the motivation to improve. I have no grand ideas of how to bridge the gap, but I know you cannot give the target audience a decade of experience over potential newcomers. There will be no new names to the face of competition. There will be no growth to the player base. Reborn will have to live up to its name and find a way to start anew.

Its SIMPLE:

If you want THE BEST, copy QL. It is the balance between a fast game and a super hardcore FAST game like QW. The duels on there are as good as it can get. There isn't much for innovation without entering in obvious GIMMICK TERRITORY. Of course, usually deep and good means a more reduced community, unless you live in South Korea.

If you don't care about the quality of the product an you just want to make money and have lots of kids playing the game, copy COD.

There are no way outs in between these 2 equations.

What you suggest doesn't make sense. A match in between 2 noobs is a match in between 2 noobs in QL or in QW.

A match in between an experienced player and a noob player in QL will have similar or less brutal results than a match in between an experienced player and a noob in QW.

What we need is a ranking system that it's actually intelligent and WORKS. What you do with the gameplay is irrelevant, the better player will always win, unless the game is inherently shit.

QL is not perfect nor a good compromise.

For the general public CoDs are a much, much better than QL, which says a lot about how noob unfriendly QL still is.

And it is not simple. Even QL does not represent "hardcore" in a black and white comparison, and the "hardcore against noob" topic shouldn't be the main thing to have in mind.

Yeah but whats your point? Who cares about another Cod clone in esr? lol

I'm not saying it should be CoD, considering that 2gd wants to make an unrealistic fast paced fps game.

What I'm saying is QL is not perfect on its genre and that there are some incompatible decisions to make, some that will cause people say "omg noob" like avoiding spawn rape (hint: QL itself is much "better" on this regard than QW for example) and making it slower (considering a good strafer speed).

Also the "hardcore vs noob" aspect shouldn't be the core. No one cares about dueling and no one is attracted to a game because it features duel (hint: fps duel is 0.00001% of fps games), so they should focus on what people actually play (lets say S&D. Edit: or halo-like [unrealistic does not mean unpopular] or with levels/kots/cod) and when that's sorted out then think about duel.
Hype, addiction and marketing first, because there are plenty of fps duel games right now to choose from but all of them lack people to play with besides QL, that will die sometime.

Again, a matchmaking that actually puts noobs vs noobs is all that is needed. If 2 persons dont even know the respawns, how can they spawnrape each other?

If there were a QW re-release with matchmaking that won't make its gameplay issues disappear.

how

re-read the phrase until you get it

>gameplay issues
That's subjective. For some QW is perfect.

But QW is not.

In your opinion. For others it doesnt need any changes.

the 10 remaining players

There are 80+ players on average in #quakeworld with constant pickups being played.

In any case, since when quantity > quality?

we are talking about reborn. When making games quantity not only > quality but also quantity is everything.

so 80 players idling on irc is good? rofl, QL has dozens of thousands of players everyday (not just idlers) and that is "dead". 2gd should aim for millions not 80.

for qw to have a scene as large as it does today is an AMAZING achievement. that's not anything to scoff at. a developer could definitely learn a thing or two by looking into it. btw, you do realize q3 was well on it's way to being as dead or worse than qw is right now before quakelive happened.
developer support and a centralized system is what really saved vq3 gameplay.


anyways, unless 2gd is aiming for a cod clone, he will never get millions of people. no point in even bringing up a number that high.
2gd needs to find a way to make a fun fast fps where any level of player can enjoy. how he can acheive that without compromising the gameplay is anybody's guess.

which is why I'm telling you gameplay has to be compromised. It cannot be a QW clone, which is what you suggested, not even QL, which is much more noob friendly.

actually, i should have said without compromising the game too much. you are correct, compromises will definitely need to be done.

As for qw, reborn doesnt have to be a clone, but picking some aspects from it wouldn't be a bad idea.
unbalanced weapons would be a good thing to take.
the more work newbies have to put in a frag, the less chance there is that they'll keep playing that game, that is a fact.
of course, a pro could destroy a newbie worse in an unbalanced game than in a balanced game, but measures could be done to prevent the two from ever joining the same game.

autohop would be the biggest compromise that i listed itt. I can definitely understand why people get upset over that. however, people need to realize that a lot has changed in the last decade with regards to fps games. gamers from 2012 aren't anything like the gamers from 2000. the young gamers from today aren't used to the same difficulty that older gamers are, so a fps developer who doesn't change to cater to them is looking for trouble.

people like balance in multiplayer games and overall works very well with games that you buy content separately. That is not the same as weapons doing no damage.

I think movement has to be either not that influential if mastered (like cods are, which is the same as q3 but without bunny jumping) or simplified (not just autohop but more restricted).

how many successful games followed qw balance (completely unbalanced) and gameplay (difficult to start playing, difficult to master, rape fest) after its release? I can't remember one, moreover they all went the exact opposite way and that's why the 5 remaining QW players didn't move on from their niche.

people like frags more than anything.
most people dont give a shit about balance or even understand it.
look at cod, for example, every gun is pretty much instant kill
the skill in cod comes from map awareness, not so much with aiming.
an unbalanced game like qw is actually closer to cod than quakelive is(sees first, kills first)


disagree about the movement, but agree that big changes need to be done there. imo, that's the biggest thing holding back fast fps games.

lastly, qw being unbalanced isn't the reason it's dead.
quite frankly, that is a very ignorant thing to say,
there are so many reasons why it died that you just cannot place it on one reason alone.

Most people will quit the game in 2 seconds if they are spawned frag 150 to 0, which is something that happens with even top qw players.

i think what holds back fast fps games is that they are fast (lol) and released for the pc. Them being unrealistic is not much of an excuse.

Matchmaking.

You cannot dumb it down more than QL.
Making a dumb movement system like pressing mouse2 and W will make quake players feel like shit, and empty.

If we cannot make a game that is as good and dept as QL and have people like it, just like Starcraft is deep and people liked it, then we call it a game over and stay a hardcore little community.

that will never happen.
rts gamers are much more hardcore on average than fps gamers.
something drastic has to be done to get new blood into our scene.
if nothing gets done, we won't be a small and hardcore community.
instead, we will be a dead/extinct one.

btw, i said autohop could be configured via cfg or server.
never did i say it would be mandatory to use

Let's see how many players Reborn has 16 years after its release.

i changed my nickname to prove you wrong, but wont do a 16 years commitment

What gameplay issues does QW have in your point of view?

the ones we all know. A great example is top players beating each other 150 to 0.

he sucks at it and blames the game for his lack of skills.

at least I don't edit posts in which you previously said you were good in 2001 but without any proof rofl
http://esreality.com/post/2346923/attracting-...pid2347309

i didn't edit cause i lacked proof, i edited cause it was a dumb post.
it definitely didnt have anything to do with you either, you aspie suffering attention whore. i'm sure you were wondering.

there's plenty of other basic things that could change. for ex the pointlessness of making someone play a full 10 or 15 min when they've already lost after 1 or 3 minutes. something like 10min or 10 frags would prob make beginners rage less (and good players less bored?). same thing with de-emphasizing the importance of memorizing times or doing arithmetic by forcing positional play to be stronger or having the items spawn due to something the player does (ie mega in qw/q2/cpm), making random spawns less important (or just not have random spawns)... etc.

Bullshit. I've seen amazing comebacks in aerowalk of 10+frags.

sure, but i'm sure you've seen way more 20-3 games. i'm not talking about tournaments anyway.

fraglimit is just stupid.

w/e, a better concept than beginners losing for 9+ minutes is needed. fraglimit is one option. starcraft, checkers & other games have actual endgame concepts, quake has a timelimit because it was the first thing someone implemented.

so what?
Fraglimit is stupid. It kills amazing comebacks.

I think the best games to look at are dota 2 and LoL for attracting new players. Dota 2 has this great way of watching pub games where you spec with 2 minute delay and can click "watch player perspective", click on the player you want and watch his pov. This is also possible by going on someone's profile, match history, and downloading the replay of the game. imo this is an essential feature that you can download the replay from all player's povs. allows you to improve and see what better players are doing (in the particular position you want to play on your team etc.). Of course it won't be nfl films yet, but gotta do something about the shitty demo system we have atm.

In LoL's case they're using elo system kinda like qlranks and it gives ppl on twitch a reason to watch ppl (high elo players they can learn from and probly respect them more/maybe even idolize and admire etc). Also gives ppl a reason to play to "get out of elo hell" which means playing with different ranked players like diamond, gold, platinum etc or just raise their elo, whatever. They also got a better tutorial there but that's helped a lot by the game being much simpler.

Main thing though is that the game should be team based so its easier for people to get into it, its more fun, social and (arguably) more forgiving. Needs team skill match making queues like LoL and dota2 have. It's gotta have nice artwork, 720p/1080p main resolutions and its gotta stretch hardware quite a bit to attract sponsors.

Gameplay-wise I think it should be fast-paced movement and I agree it needs less weapons, but maybe you could have classes like TF2, and have a few simple gametypes like CTF, S&D, TDM, NTF (from cpm). Items are great but they should have easier times like 10 seconds for weapons or 1 minute for big items. I think there should be less types of items as well as less weapons. That would probably break it down a lot simpler.

Lastly, I also think, and I know this sounds silly as fuck but i think players should give their passport number or national insurance code, some form of ID, that identifies them with their game account so that they won't create aliases and if they cheat they will be personally banned and won't be able to come back.

There's more to it but I don't know how to actually make a game so this is just fantasies which imo should be minimal expectancies in this day and age of 2012/2013 and beyond, especially if you want to compete against those moba games. Overall gotta take the stuff which works from lots of pop games like LoL/Dota2/COD and merge it with quake if we want a big community in a fast paced and competitive quake-like fps (which doesnt suck balls like shitmania)

wall of text, maybe its useful maybe im talking shit, dont care. ;x

I wholeheartedly agree with most of your points (pretty much l eclasses). team mode should be default - make the guns and armor aquisition a team effort, implement ways for players to work together, form parties and compete together. this is another reason halo and cod are so popular.

if the item timing is simplified and the whole team is keeping track of items, players can learn the basic concepts of dueling while playing a team mode.

also one thing I'd like to add to your list: built in voice chat. having the game be a social experience is really important IMO.

Using DOTA as an example and then saying it needs to be more simple than quake with less weapons is crazy. dota is so fucking complicated item + hero combo wise it blows my mind it is popular, even a little bit.

Yeah, DOTA and LOL fucking suck. Who is nerd enough to learn all these different shits? apparently a lot of people.

I was talking about LoL being simple, but I'd still say dota is simpler than quake and sc. Anyway I was merely implying that only sc can be that intricate and still have a massive following simply because of its development over the years in korea.

this is what reborn is going up against.
the goal is create a funner game than this. i just don't see a leveling up system or tutorial system being enough.
some core changes need to be made.

expecting people to have to learn movement before they can start having fun is one of them. that type of thinking needs to be a thing of the past.
you guys have to realize that there are people who have grown up without ever learning movement skills for fps games. millions of players.
you can't expect them to change just for quake/reborn, quake/reborn needs to change for them. evolve or die.

its just my skilth mod with better maps, and why id should release a UDK type of kit using quakewars engine and make standalone mods and indy games etc, they only need to add and allow a little bit bigger textures for fly vehicle maps

http://www.moddb.com/mods/q43a/downloads/skil...3-complete

source is here http://www.moddb.com/mods/q43a/downloads/skil...v13-source if you want to make your own anyway

COD is crap.

And with a proper match making system that's bullshit. Players who can't strafejump vs players who can't strafejump = solved.

I had plenty of fun playing FFA in Q3 when I didn't know how to do shit.

if quakeworldlive came out and nothing was changed except for graphics and an autohop option was added for newbies.
would you play it?

yes if there was enough servers with autohop off

The solution is NOT dumbing down the game.
Example = Shitmania.

SM is not a good example.. that's the Pong equivalent in FPS
only that Pong is more fun

PK = dumbed down QW movement = fail.

PK didn't fail because of movement, lol

Pk movement with less stickiness(more like q3/ql) would be the best movement evar

It was QW for the poor.

Although i think the strafe left/right is the most accurate feels best, movement, new players will find it easier by just holding +forward and jump around to gain speed.

jesus christ you qw fanboys are annoying

QW IS QW FOR THE POOR

STEPUP LOL

this thread is all about musicofmelkor and nemecel wanting a qw remake or attracting people to qw. They are the very worst, even worse than warsow kids.

no, the worst are people like you who want to play q3 physics for another ten years because they lack adaptability. people have been bored with q3's simple movement for years, it's time we switch to a new game that uses a proven system from the past (qw, q2, cpm, etc) or uses an entirely new system with advanced movements.
q3 needs to die for the scene to grow again.

And people who want to play qw physics for another ten years are better than those who want q3 how?

i haven't played qw in YEARS.
however, i realize it's one of the best physics systems around.
the only thing it's missing is a double jump option. everything else about it felt perfect to me. anyways, i don't care if reborn isn't a clone of qw, i just want to play a game with some advanced god damn physics in it. is that too much to ask?

No, it's not that much to ask but you're settling for less with qw. It might be fast, it might be fun(for you) but it's not advanced. It's even simpler than strafejumping.

I want an advanced system too, but to me that means something like cpm - taking physics from more than one game and combining them. But unlike you I don't want it to be cpm because I already have cpm.

europe =/= america
we don't have the luxury of falling back to cpm or qw if were not satisfied with reborn.

qw bunnyhopping is definitely superior to cpm's bunnyhopping.
if you prefer cpms movement system as a whole, that is fine, but to claim cpm has better bunnyhopping is straight up delusional


anyways, all i want to play is a game with advanced movement.
anything is better than q3 physics, i think we can both agree on that.

Nowhere did I say cpm's bunnyhopping is superior. I don't even know what that means. CPM's is less forgiving. That's all I can say.

i beg to differ
i always found cpms bunnys more forgiving when it came to keeping max speed.

what is more proven than q3 movement rofl, even the most popular fps franchise uses it to this day (cod).

No one cares about qw, q2, cpm, etc. That qw reference once again proves that you want people to play qw or make reborn a remake, which is simply unsuitable for attracting casual gamers.

Proven for what? Fun? It's without a question the most boring and unattractive movement system of any quake. Even q2 has doublejumps ffs. Does anybody in cod know that strafejumping is there? Or is it like with the newbies in ql where they don't even realize someone is using strafejumping because they're not THAT much faster?

that's why it works. Do you realize this thread is called "Attracting casual gamers"? What you don't get is that "advanced movement" (not some gimmicky key but actual movement) is used in 0.000000000000000001% of fps games.

I'd simplify it while at the same time it is still "sexy" to jump around.

It works how? By attracting people who don't even know about it???????????????????????

by not making them run away at seeing people flying by at 1000ms while they can only move at 320. Lets face it, "advanced movement" is a thing of the past and there has never been one popular game that uses it (q1 /= qw).

no one is buying a game because of "movement", even gameplay does not attract players that much. Where both matter the most is at keep people playing and not making people run away.

i already explained wtf can be done in this thread.
autohop
it's on my op, ffs

autohop is gimmicky and does not make movement simpler. People would still be flying at 1000ms while noobs run at 50ms.

autohop is a new trend in fps, you shouldn't be against it just because it hasn't worked well on tiny indie games. hopefully reborn can improve on it if they add it in their game.

btw, you can easily set it up by the server, ya know.
who in their right mind would want to play on an autohop server when they can hop just fine on a normal server.

autohop does nothing. It's so obvious I'm not even going to discuss this.

Yeah, ok, you want to dumb it down for the newbies. I thought it was designed to be a competitive game? How is 1 million newbies that are exactly the same skillwise better than 100 pro's that are widespread?

Might as well end the conversation here. I understand your point, I just disagree that casual gamers need to be attracted for a competitive game.

sc2 is both a casual and a competitive game that simplified all the annoying aspects of scbw.
Hardcore players disliked the removal at first, but look where sc2 is right now. Without the changes there wouldn't be new high/top players and people obsessed with the lower/mid end of the ladders.

And we know from experience that games aimed at hardcore fps gamers always fail instantly. Always.
E-sports is about making a game for the casual audience with some "advanced" features, then people obsessed with it start competing and then it's all about marketing. It cannot be the other way around otherwise it won't finance itself: games are made for mass entertainment and that is what sells, no exceptions, and if it doesn't sell then it defeats the whole purpose of making a company.

If you want to play the most hardcore of them all you can play cpm....with the 5 remaining players, but don't ruin 2gd's project and people behind it.

"If you want to play the most hardcore of them all you can play cpm....with the 5 remaining players"

That's not true!!

dude, he's the site troll.
don't pay him any mind.

yeah, cpm is not hardcore

That's right!!!! if it doesn't get my dick so hard that it pops straight into my own mouth then its not worth fuckin playin bruv!! knowhwatimean ARRRRRGGGGggggg

you're a moron
q3 physics are popular because that's the only system that ever got support from id software.
if the first versions of q3 came out with cpm movement, do you really thing people would have jumped ship to a mod that had vq3 physics? of course not. people probably would have laughed at the idea of moving to a dumber game(vq3 mod)

id software created qw physics
id software moved from qw physics to q2 physics
id software then simplified it again to q3
and guess what, it's the most popular physics in fps gaming (lots of games have it but no bunny jumping) while qw physics are present in ....qw with its 5 players.

and you are overrating qw movement. Strafe jumping is harder and less intuitive, but mastering it does not make a day and night difference like qw does (hint: qw movement is bad game design).

hl has bunnyhop, cs has/had

which game has strafejumping(that people actually use)?

all cods
all games using the q2 engine
all games using the q3 engine

and lots really. It's always fun trying a new fps game and finding that you can strafe jump.

I said strafejumping that people actually use. Haven't seen too much footage of CoD but this is the first time I'm hearing it has strafejumping.

from my youtube subs. And any decent level match really
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN-S_Hm6lG8&feature=plcp

In general terms this is the discussion: People do complain about quake too difficult to pick up...and you want to make it more complex? match making won't fix that, which is again something so obvious I won't discuss.

First of all that's not strafejumping, those are some OB's. Second of all I said that people actually use. I can show you the old OB's on ztn but it's not like someone actually used that ingame.

can't do those without strafejumping, and there are plenty in cod4 without using the OB.

This is the first thing that came up in youtube, though the map called crash had lots and are abused all the time in matches (didn't bother to search a video lol but everyone does it on crash).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYV_oc4RgPY

You know why you didn't know about that before? Because the game is so well made the sexy movement is there, which feels sexier on cod4 because of the q3 engine, but people don't notice it because the main movement is running, which is just one button that has almost 0 depth to it.
Strafe jumping, OBs, etc. are something that only the most hardcore players know but isn't something that destroys the game for noobs like QW movement does.


I just don't get why you 2 are quoting the most unpopular fps games out there saying that their gameplay is "good" and will attract players. Again, if you want to play a hardcore unpopular game go play cpm or qw with its 5 players, but that's not how you make a new game. Or if you want something really hardcore don't play videogames but go to real sports instead.

we already explained this to you.
people prefer games that have support, It is very, very hard to get people to move to a game with less support/backing(vq3 to cpm or to quakeworld).
anyways, i'm done with this thread. keep filling this thread with your hatred for bunnyhopping, i don't care.
cheers

this is like the 5th time you leave the thread rofl. I have only replied.

I never wanted to attract players. I want reborn to attract spectators. That doesn't mean them being able to compete with the pro's. Can every MMA spectator get in the ring and fight with the champion? Can F1 spectators drive an F1 car? No, they can't. Dumbing something down so newbies can participate only makes it more boring to watch.

most videogame viewers are players, which is completely different than real life sports.

There are plenty of reasons for that and you can google them, but in the end it's just how the world works.

The 'strafejumping' in CoD is kinda negligible, pretty much non-existent.

bunnyhopping is easy to learn but hard to master.
strafe jumping is harder to learn but not too difficult to master.

imo, the first one works out better because it adds the most depth to the game. anyways, i guess we will just agree to disagree on this issue.
cheers.

?
PK movement was QW movement for the poor man. Just pressing w+mouse 2 = max speed. It's an objective fact.

I haven't read all posts through as I'm just heading to bed and stumbled upon this.

But you make really bad assumptions as to what makes a game become succesful. You don't need to "dumb a game down" for it to be a succes.
Even in QL the movement is not something that "sets players back".

The only reason why QL fails to attract many people is because the initial skill gap is too badass huge and even a slight difference in skill can be very demotivating.

In QL it is very easy to always win by a large score versus someone who "is only a bit worse than you".
For instance I have played many games where I really had to play near my best in order to defeat someone. But the resulting score was 20 - 0. Even in games as 'one sided in scoreline' as that, it is still possible that the skills actually were pretty close.
Noobs therefor can't tell if they are improving or not -> not a fun game.

Another example is my brother. He used to play (ages ago) and he was pretty good. But I had a bit more time to practise, so whenever we duelled I would come out on top. And even though he was only slightly worse than me. He never took a map... and pretty much all games were 15+ vs 0-5.

I can be slightly better at movement than my opponent and therefor rape him in all games we play. But if he ever would see why his movement sucks it's very possible that I'd lose the very next map we play.
Same with aim / timing / tactics blabla.

This.

thats why it's one of the few games that can be said to be a legit 'e-sport'.

I disagree.

Imo the part of esports that really matters is that the game has to allow you to win games because of a collection of different skills. (aka shitmania fails because you can't win all games just because you're better.. and the only real usefull skill is aim)

But in quake the fragcount doesn't represent the skill very accurately. While in other games (like LoL) there are many stats which players can 'relate their skill to' and allow them to compare to eachother.

Now in quake we also have the item pickups / damage done etc.... but the only real statistic there is if #frags. At least the community thinks so.

It's perfect. In Quake you can use your better strenght and try to win using it. Some players rely on aim, others on brain, etc. That creates very distinct player styles. Not many games allow for this.
Frags are frags, you kill the enemy via the different tools you have (as I said). Winning the game because you picked more RAs would be stupid.

what you say is true but it's not really a reply to my post.

What I say is that the scoreline in quake often doesn't really resemble your own growth. Aka if you're top500-1000 or top100-500... vs any pro you'll still lose 30 - 0.

So you can't really (as a noob) see your progression.
While in other (noob friendly) games you can. And the main reason why quake doesn't have a big community is not because it's "elitist" or "fps doesn't have an audience" or anything like that. It's just that you always get raped 30 - 0 even by people who are only slightly better than you are.

Sure the top of the pro's are fairly equal in skill. But below that you really need to "find your matches" because anywhere below your level and you're winning big and anywhere above your level you get raped.

Well, it's not worth changing the gameplay and making it shit to appeal the masses.

I'm not saying anything should be dumbed down, just that it should be harder to completely rape people who are fairly close to you in skill.
I have np with 30 - 0'ing someone who has 1000 elo.... the problem is when I still 30 - 0 someone on 1500 - 1900 elo.
Sure I have to "play better" in order to do that to someone who is better... but if someone would start the game and ask for a game vs me (which has happened) and afterwards asks for some advice etc.
Ofcourse many mistakes they make are really obvious etc... so I would point them out...
After the game they would practise quite a bit on the things I pointed out. And after a month or so they would want to re-challange me... meanwhile their game improved sooo much... but I can still rape them with the same score (often I play worse (than my best) on purpose, in all games where the skill gap is too large, so that they can see their own progression better but if I would play 100% in both games... both would often still be close to 30 - 0).

Key issue here is the scoring mechanism. In every other competitive game the game state is reset after one player scores and this is the major flaw of quake duel.

The current system with spawning without guns and armor makes it impossible for the lesser player to get back into the game, he is most likely in a even worse situation than before the frag.

He has no weapons and armor while the better player has weapons and probably freshly picked up armor. If this post frag imbalance was fixed quake duel would be more popular amongst new players.

If the players are more evenly matched the random spawn system doesn't work either. One player may get more than one point for each frag due to random spawn frags. What if soccer gave the scoring team randomly 1-3 additional goals? You can say that this evens out over time and it does, but it makes each duel unnecessarily random, especially low scoring maps.

I could go on but its obvious that the current system is bad both in even matches and uneven matches and I am amazed that the quake community is so oblivious to this problem.

TLDR;
The current scoring/ spawnsystem sucks.

agree with the random respawn issue
made a big thread about how i'd fix it on the reborn forum.
surprisingly, a lot of people agreed with me.

i don't have issue about the fresh spawn tho.
if you're not good enough to figure out what to do from a spawn, you shouldn't be playing a mode where you lose your items after a death.
there are plenty of modes out there for people who hate losing items after death(capturestrike, CA, instagib, etc)

Those are team modes.

I assumed the discussion was about duel. Quakes only shot is duel, other games has surpassed quake as a team game by miles. That train is long gone and its better to focus on quakes USP on the e-sport market, 1 vs 1 fps.

So you want to dumb it down to 1v1 CA? To have so much balance that you don't have to put a single thought into anything besides raw aim? Yeah, sounds awesome. I'll take the imba duel over that any day of the week.

The current system with spawning without guns and armor makes it impossible for the lesser player to get back into the game

The keyword here is lesser. What kind of a game is it when the lesser player can be the winner?

You are putting words into my mouth. I was pointing at the problem, I did not propose 1vs1 CA.

The solution depends on how much of the current gameplay style you want to retain. There are lots of solutions.

"The keyword here is lesser. What kind of a game is it when the lesser player can be the winner?"

Nobody won at this stage, one player scored. Are you implying that only the better player can get the first score? if so why continue at all beyond the first score? (fraglimit 1)

Also there are lots of games where the better player do not win each game as often as in quake, it doesn't make those games less competitive nor limit their skill ceiling (poker, starcraft, tennis, magic the gathering for example).

Then what is your solution? It really seems like you are describing CA. Because other than introducing rounds you can't get rid of the luck that comes from spawns. You can either make the game end with sudden death or increase the amount of frags so 2 spawn frags won't make a difference on a scoreline of 40:25.

Some examples of possible solutions. I not saying they are good or bad I am saying that numerous variations exist and they have not been tested to my knowledge.

These examples remove the random spawn entirely.

*When player dies restart round. 10 minute total limit. Remove 200/200 limit. Most rounds win. (the ca model)

* When player dies move his view to furthest spawn point. +fire spawns player, +jump moves view to next spawn. Auto spawn after 5 seconds.

*When player dies spawn at furthest spawn from player with 125/50. All spawns are close to a tier 2 weapon.

*closest spawn. Protection for 5 seconds or until player picks up armor or fires a gun.

Mitigating examples.

*X times Y minutes matches. Winner scores 1 point for each round. most rounds win. ( I would start trying 3 x 5 and 5 x 3 )

*Use tennis point system, first to X frags score 1 point. Count score at the end of match.

*Last frags. Only count the last 5 frags for end score calculation.


The point is it can be solved if you work with the problem and actually try different solutions and get a feeling for it. Game design is a craft where trial and error and iterative testing is key.

Saying that one solution is better than another without testing is pointless. A good example is red rover that is available for all now. I thought the game mode would suck donkeys, but I was wrong. Its more fun than both ffa and ca for me.

Alright, you have some ideas. I totally disagree with your whole view on the spawn system btw. I think you're too protected right now as it is - 125 hp with was it 50% damage for the first second or half a second? And it's also furthest 50% of spawns. I liked osp more where spawnraping had more skill and more gamble - it was 50% furthest from the corpse, not the killer. That made you move around the map in order to spawnrape your opponent, not like one of the previous versions of ql where you could force the same spawns over and over by sitting in one place. And spawnrape was the way to get a comeback too.

I don't think that the spawnsystem is a real issue.... however it works the better player will make sure he can take advantage of it... and if you would "give a bonus" to the guy who dies you'll see more and more people cessing the hell out of everyone.

But there are many other ways in which you can change the balance in ql.

What I find really strange for example is that QL had to be more "action packed" than Q3 so they upped the movement speed. Then because the movement speed was upped the projectiles were too slow... so they had to alter that... then because RL was faster the splash was too large relative to the difficilty of aiming so they reduced splash dmg. Then because you could RJ into nice possitions faster they had to reduce the rail dmg....
And atm RL is almost useless unless you hit directs or use them to force the opponent into a rail/lg and rail is only usefull to either chip off hp while you're outside the range of the nmy lg or to deal some extra dmg upon leaving fights. So basically what it did was make QL lg only.... and they even tried to reduce lg dmg because it was too dominant but kinda failed to find good settings for it (duh).

I've argued about this numerous times before that if something is hard it is rewarding when you hit and fights will become more dynamic.
Aka say that you can force a fight where you have a 20% chance to hit a rocket which will win you the fight.... get 5 of these fights and you'll probably have turned the game around.
And fights in general will become more about percentages (which will lead to closer scorelines given that the other guy is not ALWAYS in a better possition (aka expensive rj's and or slower general movement speed)).

>In QL it is very easy to always win by a large score versus someone who "is only a bit worse than you"

This is so true.

it is imo one of the things why ql is so hard to get into.
It's hard to see if you improve or not if you consistently lose by a huge margin.
Ofcourse it would be nice to keep the skill in ql but if we can make the gap less huge (and more relative to the actual skills) it would imo help a lot to make the quake series more available for online play.

When this happens is usually at the last 2 or 3 minutes where you break the guy's game and manage to spawn rape him a coupe times.

hmmm it happens a lot more often than that.

This problem is much worse in duel than team modes. I'd go as far as to say team modes need to be the basis of Reborn not duel if there is going to be a large healthy community. In duel you can win every fight with just 1 health left and win the game 30-0 (dumb example but it illustrates the problem). In team modes you're much more likely to get cut down if you have low health.

I think the same. Duel is something that has always been 0.000001% of fps games. Lets cater the rest.

Problem is that its not really possible to decrease the skill gap without dumbing down the game?

servers with autohop and timers = cal-main
servers without autohop and no timers = cal-i

i really believe most people would be inclined to switch to the harder servers after they start to dominate the newbie servers.
i think this would be a good way to keep the community healthy and growing.

Also, cut the mandatory cfging to make it playable. The game should play well out of the box with only few customizations that won't require you to read lengthy tweaking manuals and stuff (cg_kickscale =/= 0 in ql, I'm looking at you !).

100% agree
stupid settings need to be removed from the cfg
cg_bob
cg_smoke
etc
save that realism crap for other games

Yeah, let's try to appeal the masses with shitty graphics.

Reborn should have all these fancy FX stuff.
It's easy to make config presets that turn all that stuff OFF with a single click.

wtf do bob, kickscale, and smoke do have to do with graphics?
all they do is screw over a newbie who doesn't know better.
i'm saying we shouldn't have settings like that in the game. a newbie shouldn't be so disadvantaged for not knowing crap about cfgs.

Rocket trails are cool. I loved seeing the projectile of the rocket trail hitting an enemy in the air and seeing the amazing gore fx exploding in DM17 when I was a newbie in 1999.

hated q3s rocket trails from the beginning, especially hated the large explosions. qws rocket trails on the other hand were awesome to look at and helped with air rockets. anyways, i dont have problems with trails if done right(ezquake trails), i just dont think ID ever made good default ones.

Conclusion: Just add a fucking option in the menu to dissable them. Stop limiting people.

i agree

all this cfg works really needs to go, its just annoying. you shouldn't be forced to read all this tweaking manuals and how to set up huds.

like shootmania?

I don't know, I don't have shootmania.

Totally agree and I'd actually go further by saying remove configs entirely. Menu should have A LOT of options though. The world is GUI-based because of 90% of ppl using Windows and Mac. Playing games on a computer instead of console is nerdy enough already for the casual gamer. Showing them configs is a complete turn-off.

@2GD, please ignore these people telling you to produce a game similar to COD, CS:GO, UT3 and whatnot. What the fuck. Pretty confident you won't go down that road anyway, not with Fazz and Fox on your team. Phew. Just make sure that the game will have everything you need to feel proud of what you achieve and still want to achieve (the keep-playing factor); ladders (ELO system), stats, being able to spec matches instantaneously etc. Oh, and i can has cell shader graphics + bloom plox?

you can add official ladders to QL
more stats
spectator mode
cell shading

and it still will scare players away.


The "hardcore" fps games, which are the ones from q3 and onwards, have two similarities: all of them failed and are completely stagnated.
You simply have to simplify reborn and make it noob friendly (2 different aspects), and I'm willing to bet money that reborn duel and tdm will be simpler and slower than QL, which is a noobification of Q3 and Q3 itself is easier to pick up than q2 and qw.
Sure it won't be sm, cod or halo but if they know what they are doing then it simply cannot be as complex and hardcore as QL.

to attract noobs you need to have just simple, 2 or 3 modes.
*noob mode: no advanced movement, but you move fast enought, spawn with gun ,2-3 weapons on map, items timer.
*advanced mode: advanced movement, 3-4 weapons, few items timer.
*hardcore mode: full stuff.. it's example, you can change shit in very mode.

Changing the game for different levels of players is one of the worst ideas to try and 'solve the problem' of a game being advanced or whatever. It's almost patronizing to would-be new players. Part of the appeal of competitive games, especially those supported through esports, is that everyone plays the same game. It makes everyone feel like the have the potential to be just as good as the best players, since they have all the same tools at their disposal. Even altered 'easy' game modes are a bad idea. It's like saying 'yeah, you could play this EASY version for NOOBS, but just be aware it's for NOOBS and if you like it, it makes you a NOOB'. Bad bad bad. Just leave it as other modes akin to RA or CA, which are naturally simpler, but have their own place and aren't directly assigned to the role as being dumbed-down versions of other modes.

I read these forums from time to time, and I always get the impression that most of the Quake community has been living in a bubble for like 20 years. There's no doubt in my mind that if and when this game is released, or any game with the aim of bringing back 1v1 fps, there will be 2 outcomes [if the game is any good]:

1. It's similar enough to past Quake games that at least partially appeases and predictably splits the community. And of course fails to bring in new blood by any significant amount. See Quake 4, Warsow, Nexuiz, or whatever.

2. It's completely different and fresh, is successful in bringing in new players, and inevitably makes most of the Quake community want to kill themselves. Even though the game might be good, all old players will look at any new rulesets or mechanics as 'gimmicks' because they are something that wasn't in QW.

That's your fate, there's no way around it, might as well accept it now. I feel like most people here just want a new game to rape people in with legacy skills. Those kinds of games don't go far. Quake is not chess or football. It's a game that stopped evolving very early on in its lifecycle, leaving its successors to try to copy and 'perfect' the old game rules and mechanics instead of completely changing/evolving the subgenre. Have you ever noticed how all 1v1 fps games' duel mode is based on exactly the same concepts? Why is that?

Let me offer some insight into this extremely average competitive gamer's viewpoints.

1. Timing items is stupid. Well, it's not stupid, but it's certainly archaic. Which is unfortunate, since it's the crux of everything that is duel, and is where most of the game's depth lies. The problem is, no normal person wants to time items. Sorry, they just don't. It's bad enough we've got to be at work/school on time in real life, no one wants to do it in a video game. This is by far the biggest hurdle in creating a new game. But it also offers a huge opportunity, because items are the sole reason that Quake is a streak-based game, which is why players 'get raped by anyone a little better than them'.

2. A 10/15-minute timed match is the wrong format for 1v1 with the way the game is designed. Straight up dead wrong. The only reason it's like this is the same reason why everything else is the way it is; because that's how it always was. 'Garbage time' is a very bad thing for both spectators and players. Pair this format with the streak-based nature of duel, and you've got a recipe for boredom/frustration and the lowest chances for exciting matches that go down to the wire. I have to admit, it makes them that much more exciting when the do happen, but even then it usually ends quite some time before the match ends, and usually never at all.

For example, Dreamhack this weekend. Evil won the GF set vs. Rapha, but not before losing like 20-0 on toxiccity or browntown or whatever the fuck that new(?) map is called. It's the nature of the game that leads to outcomes like that, and while players who know the game (the VAST MINORITY) realize why it happens, it just makes the game look like shit to everyone else. Most people who know games but don't know Quake would look at that and say the game looks 'hella random', because an entire 10-minute long match completely failed to exemplify the relative skill of the two players. That's bad.

It's pointless to try and discuss ways to change or replace such systems, since I nor anyone posting suggestions is designing the game. But please realize that I am kind of bored, and there are alternatives that are far from turning the game into '1v1 CA'. And no I'm not talking about item timers for everyone (as that falls into the method of trying to improve 20+-year old mechanics instead of coming up with something new, and is also a stupid neanderthal 'solution').

Whoever suggested iterative testing is right. There are so many possible ways to go about it, that the 'right' one won't be clear until a lot of playtime is put in.

The easiest would be to have something closer to a round-based system. It comes down to the law of averages; the more times both players are reset to a neutral situation, the more likely the better player will win in the end. It's why tournaments are played best of 3 or 5 or whatever. Instead of playing a single game in 10 or 15 minutes, you could play several faster skirmishes.

Or maybe the long game format stays, and there could be diminishing returns or some sort of reset for the player at advantage. Perhaps you receive less and less health/armor/ammo for each consecutive pick up of the same item, or consecutive frags on the same life. Or maybe the fragged gets a choice upon respawn of like 25 armor or a mid-tier weapon, and more armor or a tier 1 weapon after being fragged a few times consecutively. Or maybe both players respawn after each frag, the fragger keeping their current hp armor and weapons, or maybe only one of the two.

Then there's always the option of replacing the item system with something completely new...not even going to go there...

TLDR; quake is old as shit and if this game is successful you will not like it

cheers

I don't agree with any sigle word you wrote here. but it's your opinion and mine is mine. I could change my mind,if you wrote your example of duel, let's say 80% of idea and it could be fresh , good , intresting stuff, not few small talkshit.

TO ATTRACK NOOBS you need something like that. FPS / RPG MIX.
Before match you pick one of 5 or 10 or 20 different players. One can pick bigger guns on map, have double jumps and so on. other can pick smaller guns, have walljumps are faster in running and shooting. OR you don't pick player with different set skills, but you just pick skills before match. You could use some skills vs other know player. Etc against avek you pick +back skills/stuff, vs rapha you pick +forward skill/stuff. Others would use just one skill/char model for entire life..
Etc one player spawns with armor, other with gun and so on.
THIS WOULD ATTRACT NEW PLAYERS FOR SURE, they like customize characters and BE UNIQUE.

I don't think 2gd would go with this in REBORN.
I would love to play such FPS/RPG style game.
How much UNIQUE gamestyles.
Biggest problem is balance, but with 1 year beta , I think you could find out.
With new patch, you could add new skills/chars.
TDM with different players set would look good.
Maps could be very unique, one players can move different ways with different skills, one can use walljumps, other need use RJ.

It's just idea, but in LOL, DOTA age, rpg shit owns million kids...

It was me that suggested iterative testing.

I agree with everything you say here, you essentially posted what I didn't have time to write. :)

I am interaction designer in the mobile industry and it would be interesting to do a full usability study with gamers completely new to quake and test which game mode the respond most positive to.

>i suck at duel, please make an easier game
nope

What we need is matchmaking that works. Noob vs noob, none of them will be timming items, no problem.

This solves it AND doesn't make a dumb ass game for dumb ass people jus to appeal to the dumb ass twitter-swag-ipad-cod generation. That means high skilled games will still be exciting and something that can be considered an art.

for making casual community just give them a economic system, not gameplay, not duel system or shit

pros or division boys mostly doesnt care this, i didnt
valve doing this for years and have huge shit casual-trade community.

give them duel points/frag points/crafting points, pay for point and "trade" . and reborn will live forever for casuals.

-new gaming order-

Reborn is going to suck. He said on that video how he is going to simplify the movement and potentially remove tracking-aim weapons like LG.

Doesn't mean it'll suck. I think people forget why Quake was so popular in the first place. Back in the old days it wasn't about extreme aim with LG and rail or fast movement around the map via bunny hopping. Back in the 90s Quake was slow and people couldn't aim worth shit. It was much more a thinking game which focused more heavily on tactics and strategy. Going back to these roots would be a good thing.

quake was popular cause it was one of the few online games around and had tons of modding. yes, 1v1 quake1 was slow, but ctf and other modes in quake1 were not slow. btw, 1v1 wasn't as popular back then as it is today.

No, it would pale in comparasion to modern Q3-QL. Watching these demos are disgusting. CS with rockets.

you can actually see the strategy in the old 1v1 demos.
some stuff is still being used today!
however, i agree with you, it's not as fun to watch as newer demos

It's just terrible. After Q3, if the game doesn't have the same skillfull movements and etc and it pretends to be a competitive duel game, it's just going to be a hude dissapointment. You CAN NOT simplify it without killing it.

he also said he wanted a long reload time like q2
lol
if he knew his quake history, he'd know that would be a huge mistake.
quakeworld was larger than q2 was during quake 2's prime because a lot of people didn't like q2's slower gameplay.
im with you, bro. i doubt 2gd can make the new big fps without taking any community advice and without using more pro beta testers.
purri, vo0, czm, and milton should be front of the line to check out any new esport fps game.

Game is going to be a disgrace. I can see it comming how it's going to be besides slow and noob friendly, roboty-like Q4-Q2 which sucked major ass.

The best way to keep casual players in the game is to have a team-based mode in which there are ways for them to contribute to their team WITHOUT having good aim or movement.

The best modern example (I know it's not the first game to do it, etc.) of this is Team Fortress 2. In TF2, a bad player can still make a difference and get points as an engineer (build a sentry and teleporter), medic (follow your teammates around and left click them), spy (be sneaky and stab people), heavy (tank damage), or pyro (airblast ubers away and put out teammates who are on fire).

None of these things require traditional FPS skills. They serve as an entrypoint for new players who later might switch to deathmatch classes and eventually play more competitive modes. Even if they don't transition over, they're still more likely to pay attention to the competitive side of the game than if they've never played the game at all.

I'm not saying these things are the sole reason TF2 has a large casual playerbase, but I think it definitely has a lot to do with it. And you might say the game doesn't have a big competitive scene, but that has more to do with Valve not designing the game around competitive play and not supporting the small scene there is. Also, the game kind of sucks, so there's that.