tdm's a joke
Ringer teams, no competition., no spectator value.

not tdm's fault :(

quake's a joke
Ringer teams, no competition., no spectator value.

As a TDM only player, I don't even think it should be featured. Look at last time, it was a fucking disgrace

tournament details being announced 1 month before the event might have had something to do with the failure

Maybe it did but I just don't think there's a chance that someone could beat colwn anyways so it kinda ruins the excitement doesn't it ? Noctis apparently has no interest in Quake atm, and 4k are great but not at colwn allstar level

Don't know man, last years most of swedish teams didn't attend. Also hookups and overpowered teams happen in CTF also.
Let's say most teams contending for EC this year show up... or try to. I mean just by giving a chance to swedish teams to show up this year would be good.
nEu currently has team members for two swedish line ups and one european lineup :D or maybe even 4 mix lineups :D

it's not gonna be any bigger thant it was last time if not worse ...

i wanna see spart1e get top seed in duel. the guy has to go though rapha cooller cypher to get to semis every tourney

Dunno if he will attend, he said he doesnt enjoy duel anymore.

lame

CTF
T
F

give us what we want ffs the community is screaming for ctf!
its so spectator friendly cmon do it!

just focus on double eliminination duel tournament forget about tdm/ctf/ca/ffa whateva :l

this plz

without an up to date spectating platform tdm is obsolete to feature, add up the uninteresting competition and there you go... 2k viewers at best. not a sponsor in their right mind gonna put money into that. esports is an entertainment industry, all about viewer count. i think the first step towards getting back TDM to LANs is to convince id to redesign the spectating platform from scratch... but thats just not gonna happen im affraid. than you can maybe start think about nations tdm instead of mercenary teams and stuff.

Nations TDM!

but who would watch that? i think you often commit the mistake assuming everyone sees tdm as you see it, but you can trust me i show quake streams for non-players regularly and they find duel exciting, very enjoyable opposed to tdm where they have the same feeling as what you probably have (or at least me for sure) watching dota, bloodline or whatever game, not having a single clue whats going on. i'd say your only chance is to lobby very hard at id for a new speccing platform, otherwise the viewer count wont arise. nations tdm would probably cause a bump in viewers once, but i dont think its the way to go, unless you want only one more tdm lan (maybe). but i agree, if a lan ever takes place again it have to be nations / regional / draft whatever teams that makes the games closer, its just my opinion but tdm needs other precautions, pulling a nations event out of nowhere wont save the day (at least not for longer term).

I agree with you on the spectator features. Nations based TDM or CTF has massive advantages over the normal clan based ones in getting more teams out and generating more support and viewers.

I fully understand that people might find TDM difficult to view that are not used to it. But who actually cares, how realistic is it that we will draw that many more into the game anyway. These duel steams at events have the most famous players and are shoed in between massive starcraft games with 50k viewers, but any other tournament is at a really low level of viewers after that anyway. So it is not growing general viewership.

Lets produce content to satisfy the fans of the game. Sure make it accessible but just be realistic about how much it could grow anyway.

enough TDM, last 2 TDM events were embarassing
either make CTF or fix TDM 2v2 (which should be pretty exciting and more spectator friendly)

TDM 2v2

exciting

NO

fix weapon spawns to 10-15s and it's fine

Good point.

as far as i understand with next update people will be able to control it so im waiting for some leagues

Making it 10-15 would destroy one of the main elements that defines TDM, controling certain areas/weapons.

It could make up for some pretty interesting game though, in a non-competitive way.

Dis was onto something with his Nations TDM LAN idea

Yes! Nations TDM is the answer!

who cares colwn wins just give them money or maybe noctis is planing to play and hes gonna get his team then do finals already.

To me it seems people get jaded with things too fast.
So what if you get colwn to go to DH or noctis to round up the usual suspects.
Have some sort of structure and continuation of tournaments to show some stability, while adding new things like ctf, etc.

hopefully they replace it with ctf so we don't have to watch 2mins of action and 18 mins of BORE.

thats double powerup, single powerup is 30 sec

shut up all u team players =P let open duel take over!

this

So you can dodge it once more?

im already booking flights!

thats very smart. if u book ticket now dodging will cost a lot less, at least your plane ticket

Good to hear.

its no surprise since the last tdm tourney didnt lure new tdm players the ql tdm scene is a joke...
one reason to blame: there are not enough rich guys who are willing to through their money away for a worse version of quake tdm as we are used to

2v2

who cares?

duel 32 invitational has to be there and that's all.

Right now QL needs all the promotion it can get, and duel does this better than any other gametype, so everything else is secondary. I would love an epic TDM tournament but we need to focus on the greater good!

Maybe few show matches, if you ask me.

32 players duel... all i could ask for

CAPTURESTRIKE 5v5 AT DH WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT?

CTF!

Did anyone even see this years HOQ?
Or the EC lineups?
New players and new teams are playing actively.

Tbh it's all the same people, just different clannames.

C T F
T
F

agreed
t d m
d
m

c t f
t
f

dhs is 'done', I still hope for tdm in winter again and UGC!

i was about to say 'have a ctf tourney then' but thatl prolly end up with the same results? 4 all star players in a team to win it?

is there any point in having any team mode this dreamhack?

no l1nkin or even nocits NOOOOOOO

TDM is great, I really don't understand what the basis is for all the whine. CTF is extremely boring on the strategic level :(

pff tdm dilletante

strategic level?
tdm:
- team 1 holds red area
- team 2:
a) holds yellow areas
b) runs with MGs to die/steal RA room back after big fight
- both stay in areas for 1.5 mins then if 1 PU -> rush to quad. if 2 PUs -> all go to closest PU near your area (ra/ya) or do a 3-1 split just to try & kill their carrier/steal
- occasionally try to steal a gun controlled by enemy then return to your area & wait for next PU again

thats some next level stuff

yeah, while we're at contrived examples,
ctf:
1. run to flag
2. run to base
no, of course, that's definitely many levels above.

if i wanted to simplify tdm id just say kill the enemy team more than they kill you :p

which is like simplifying duel. except in CTF, this is much less to simplify. unlike in TDM and DUEL where the contest is for most frags done with item and area control as key factors, in CTF everyone is simply running one of the two directions.

your opinion~
TDM is pretty much 4 base defs unless someone has quad/BS. except they def different areas (1 at LG/YA, 3 at RA~)
coordination at the level of "RA/LG not safe, come help" or "lets go to quad 20 secs early"

in CTF attackers actually have to coordinate pushes without a clock to refer to. they also can alternate from the strategy e.g. if 1 PU in TDM, everyone goes then & spams. if 1 PU in CTF they can go & spam or decide to try for a flag run just before when the enemy is unprepared~

except in tdm if its 4 defs, you definitely lose with 0 frags. in tdm, you move around and constantly re-group. even 'lets go quad in 30 seconds' is more complicated than '2 guys def all game, 2 guys attack' which is what CTF is 99% of the time. so no, it's not my opinion.

3 defs on RA, strenx def LG/YA (dm20); how is that a definite loss with 0 frags? I mean def an area, just like base campers def their base. stack up on reds then get 5 frags pre-quad, 3 frags post-quad then def again except quad runner

2 guys def, 2 att~~ except with PUs...same as TDM except without the att (unless youre av3k)

what? you have zero understanding of tdm. defending an area in tdm is nothing like defending a base in ctf because you aren't STUCK WITH IT. grouping is done in response to the other teams actions. what you might be talking about mentioning strenx, is a total lock-down, which is a goal but isn't a constant state unless you're in colwn, and at that point the 'defenders' are actually 'attackers' spawn raping. the fact that you see this the opposite way shows how clueless you are.
like i said, if you have people just camp ONE area in tdm, you're either 0 frags as you leave the other team a ton of options, or playing a shitty shitty map that doesn't allow for those options.

You can make both modes as simple or complex as you want them to be. But saying CTF is boring on a strategic level is basically what makes a bad to average CTF player that hits the wall if he doesn't want to develop more creative play.

To name a few points that CTF teams can consider that does not involve the 'boring' strategies you seem to think are played by everyone:

1. Item stealing/denying by attackers towards defenders. Taking away 100 armor instead of doing 100 damage can be done in multiple ways in multiple places, even so far as to take away health bubbles that could maintain a defender in place or let an attacker escape with the flag.

2. Forcing spawns. Heavily underrated, but besides the standard supporting, you can force spawns in areas that are a real disadvantage for the opponent. Especially during make or break situations with flagruns or PU/item spawning.

3. Denying/locking weapons. Even though the respawn time of a weapon is really fast, those 3 to 4 seconds a player takes to wait for it, pick it up and switch to it can make or break a cap. If you deny the rail gun in a situation where a rail from the opponent is the only way to stop your team from capping, just stealing it for those few seconds can be more crucial than trying to kill the opponent who can still shoot off a rail with 10 hp.

I've got a few more, but saying CTF is strategically boring, is exactly the same as saying TDM is strategically boring. It depends on the teams and opponents and how they both play out the match. How far their strategical interests are if they want to apply it. If you hit 40 LG, 60 RG and generally have a team of heavy aimers, you can reduce your strategy quite a bit and go for a more cookie cutter strategy.

Watching colwn play is boring, watching most nation TDM teams play is boring, watching myself play TDM is boring.

However watching noctis play TDM when he was active was interesting, because he just didn't play on his aim, but also applied smart strategic decisions. As to why I also like to watch players like calipt and gerppa play CTF. They are creative, use (funny) strategic plays and make the match thus more fun.

If you can accept that kind of concept, you would enjoy matches (in any mode) way more if you know who and what to look out for.

You're kind of making my main point for me when you say 'CTF teams can consider' these. In TDM, you absolutely have to employ all these and more in order to edge out some frag difference. Everything is boring when it's not close! But in CTF the idea of a flag run overwhelms various complex strategies, as that's the main objective. When you like CTF, when you like these smart players, you basically like the TDM aspects of their game. The fact that some guy can randomly sneak past a bunch of players and rocket jump out with a flag is just annoying.

You 'can' also agree on ignoring all area's of the map and keep cessing the main red armor area till the 20 minute mark.

Everything is optional. You don't have to use any teamplay in TDM, but you will most likely lose if you lack/don't do it.

You don't have to go for a flag capture in CTF, you can also be a lame team and TDM the whole map till the overtime kicks in.

You do not have to leave a main area in TDM, it would be interesting to do so though, since a PU might help out more to reach your score difference goal.

I don't think what you are saying is a valid argument to differentiate strategic decisions and who are 'optional or mandatory' in TDM and CTF.

"You don't have to go for a flag capture in CTF"

what?

anyway, you're right it's not 'optional vs mandatory', it's 'what is optimal for the objective of the game'. at the end of the day, what matters in ctf is how many times someone survived walking over two spots on the map, the rest is secondary. i don't see how this is 'arguable'.

if its that easy, u should try it..
if its that easy, everyone would be pro right?
everyone could win vs colwn right?

douchebag

if i hit better than 22% lg and 30% rail, sure

everyone in tdmpickup hits above that and still they suck, so explain me why..

besides, 22 lg 30 rail, really :D ROFL
pls learn it, i cant wait for u to become pro if u think its that easy

they dont get understand

a) holds yellow areas
b) runs with MGs to die/steal RA room back after big fight
- both stay in areas for 1.5 mins then if 1 PU -> rush to quad. if 2 PUs -> all go to closest PU near your area (ra/ya) or do a 3-1 split just to try & kill their carrier/steal
- occasionally try to steal a gun controlled by enemy then return to your area & wait for next PU again

thats them. if i had cooller's % id be $$$

I'm biased but I think for spectators CTF would be a lot easier to understand that TDM. People know what CTF is about, they know the goals, they understand what it means to defend or attack. CTF is even played in real world games.

I also think TDM is bloody boring to watch compared to CTF, but that's just opinion I suppose. Even more boring that duel.

lies. here's a list of exciting tdm games from last dh:

People don't understand the objective in TDM?

team ffa

they do, but watching team ffa isnt fun...

random spec lacks the knowledge to watch tdm and enjoy it...

Says your personal opinion, I don't think its fact when TDM streams have consistently ALWAYS had more viewers than CTF. Since 2009 to this day.

im a guy who doesnt give a fuck about teammodes, so i find myself rather objective about this

if we forget the rivalry between ctf and tdm for a second , and just for the record tdm is the lamest bullshit ever created :P tdm is just not spectator friendly! it is not ! non tdmers dont understand whats happening in terms of strategy or current urgency of something. Hence a non-tdmer is just watching people playing ffa. The other point is that there are barely close games in tdm (i mean close till the end) how often do you see intense 20 minutes in tdm? so forget about that mod CTF FTW peace out

only a few people watch quake anyway so the spectator argument is invalid

the thing u miss is that dreamhack is about sponsors and sponsoring is about money and money is about people no spectators no money ! the spectator argument is the ONLY valid one!

funny you're saying that, arguing for any teammode

You are wrong there are many close games. CTF has many blowout games.

i think i have to disagree there massively :) oh and tourist was right dreamhack showed how intense tdm in tournaments can be^^

DreamHack summer was a really great event with lots of amazing games. TDM has loads of online cups with probably the cosiest competition ever as at a high level across the board.

I know you are a CTF player and very bias but really if you attack the more successful team game mode that is more popular competitively, you will just end up killing both off.

CTF had a lot of support for the first years of Quake Live and it let us down. It should prove its community again further before we waste an event trying to prop it up at DreamHack.

oh nono i didnt attack tdm as the mod (besides the mandatory flame but i guess u noticed its meant in a non-serious way) but i attack tdm as a spectators mod its not fun to watch for non tdmers. tdm was highly dominant the last 2 years its time for change! :P soon my friends ... soon!

http://www.esreality.com/post/2247234/no-dh-tdm/#pid2249939

Almost nobody watched and cared about the CTF tournament at The Party. I think it's not completely unfair to compare it to both DH tournaments, who had much more viewers and interest from the community as far as I can tell by looking at the the viewer counts and comments in the respective ESR thread(s).

well u gotta consider the-party is not dreamhack (in terms of size and popularity) not even close. but in deed tdm has more viewers but imo just because people got used to it. establish ctf to the big events (again) and you will have the same amount of viewers

Why don't you do it then, instead of relying on others. Easy to just say "establish ctf" again, but other than someone like Blade, who's making the effort?

i do in all my possibilities unlike blad3 i dont have any good connections to german lan events but i give ctf lessons to anyone who wanna learn it im working on the ctf community movie atm i am administrating the jeesports ctf nations cup i am writing the game reviews for it and i occasionally shoutcast the matches? i take that comment as an offence vor

Those tournaments had 120hz monitors and prizes - good players attended because of that so of course there were more viewers and more prestige with this event. TDM is boring because there's less to do and the only team is colwn. They only have competition from one team (reason or a noctis mix) and CTF has many more teams to compete (dp/k1ck/broken/aoc/exp,unknown and more).

TDM is more lenient towards a slow and boring turret style of play, which is not entertaining at all for viewers. Especially when instead, they could clearly understand the words "Capture the Flag" and that the game is much like football/soccer, which involves less scoring, but more tension and buildup for spectators to enjoy and empathise with the players. CTF supports more different types of playstyles, and in some teams they'll be super valuable. A player without a good aim would be nothing in TDM, but in CTF he can be a flagrunner.

As I said though, TDM has ALWAYS got more viewers than CTF. That would suggest either people like the added depth of TDM because its apparently more complex to understand. Or they dislike the simplicity of the basic CTF mode.

Hey I kinda like both but clearly TDM is the more popular mod and if you are going to have any team event its the logical choice. Especially as you will get the top players to play in TDM, but thats less likely in CTF.

as i said earlier my theory is thats tdm is more succesfull cause u got people used to it.
the thing with the pros is that its just a really simple switch from duel to tdm cause its similar unlike ctf where the most important factors of duel lose importance.
i am pretty sure ctf will get the same amount of viewers if theres as much of a hype about it as in tdm

tdm is more succesful because years of hard work from the community has been put into it from the ground up, by the community. if theres a growing competitive scene in QL its tdm, both duel and ctf have been slowly declining even with the masses of support put into both of them by the devs themselves and the vast majority of 'e-sports' organizations.

DH needs CA. its the logical choice brah

man u r really fun to watch, might that be the reason for the bigger sepctator numbers

I'd say TDM and CTF have been pretty even in the last 4 months tbh. I wouldn't say either of them are viable for DHS though

Reality is they get nothing from having a bigger duel event. 16 man invite is the biggest they should go, with a team event alongside.

I guess we'll see what this event brings, I don't think we can ever be sure of what 'attention' any of these events bring QL

"tdm as a spectators mod its not fun to watch for non tdmers"

Trust me, as non ctfer, ctf isnt fun to watch as well.

And there been quite some 6-0, 8-0 games at the party afaik.

This whole conversation seems kinda pointless anyway, some prefer duel, some tdm, some ctf. Ideal would be to have DH for duel, The Party for CTF and UGC for TDM or something, so everyone gets his love-mod.

/kisses & hugs

dis and vor make tdm fathomable for everyone ,even tdm noobs like me.

who cares. when there are no incentive for people to show up, it doesn't matter what mode you choose.

CTF =)

ctf plz? :)

we had enough tdm the last events tbh.

thx man :x

if there isnt room for 2 mods, duel offcourse!

i though it said no DH ... got instanly pissed off on ppl spreading bad rumors.

I dont care what they show... just make a SHOW out of it, kk? ... kk.