If you're talking strictly about FPS games, QW would be at the top.

QW / Q2

Less weapons, less (competitive) maps, easier movement. QW isn't that hard, it's definitely faster, but it's practically the same.

Easier movement???? I played cpm mostly and if i havent played QW for awhile it takes me awhile to get my movement back

I didn't have any problem learning it and using it, sure if I had to start a game now my movement will probably be shitty, but it will come back after playing awhile, same as any other quake. Maybe it's because I learnt strafe jumping first that I think it's easier. (Since learning how to strafe jump took me foooorrreeevver)

that's like saying that driving a porsche is easier than driving a volkswagen

sure you can drive them both at regular speeds, but to push them to their limits it's a completely different story

QW movement is MUCH more than just the air control, but I believe you're talking about just understanding the basics. Strafe jumping is easy to understand at the basics, but it doesn't mean that you can bridge2rail, or finish expert level jump pads. Try your skills at zjumps and ztricks, and see how much you still have to learn.

I played a lot of qw, I know the movement well. I don't know why you all think that quakeworld is some unattainable measure of greatness, it has different skills to learn, not a different skillset. The game comes down to collecting armours and fragging your opponent via better positioning and aim. Using the weapons and moving around the maps is something that anyone can do if they spent enough time playing it.

ps. out of interest i downloaded zjumps.bsp and was able to do the first section (there are 4) after about 20 minutes. (And I haven't played qw in a few years) So I'm assuming I would be able to do the whole thing if I played enough, since once you got the accel right from moving your mouse then it's just doing it over and over again. That doesn't seem incredibly difficult?

Any above average player from any compeditive fps would be able to learn the movement without issues. It appears to be even easier than I imagined considering how crap I am at things like defrag.

You'll be spending a lot of time trying to finish zjumps/ztricks, but as I said: the base movement doesn't encompass all the movement of QW. Map-specific application of said skills, combined with the dozens of unique jumps/techniques on each map, is where QW opens up.

I never said it was some unattainable skillset, but merely that it's higher than the rest of the Quake games. Add in the extremely high level of play that the average QW player will be playing at, you have a very tough ladder to climb.

Dude. I've played qw since 1999 and I've never been able to master the qw movement.
There wasn't anything wrong with my movement, but I certainly didn't master it. I just never got the hang of certain jumps and the sideway bunnyhop.

im an old school qw player, played qwdm and qwtf for years and years and yeah, i think qw movement is way easier than q3 for example.. you have such control over what you can do it becomes easy once you learn it :) q3 movement feels really 'random' to me

What about skilled cpm movement compared to skilled vq3 movement?

I hope he's talking about vq3cpma because osp/ql movement is lol easy.
anyways, just wait for nzr0 to answer, he'll tell you the no bs truth.

Less weapons and maps does not change the fact that those maps are still 10x harder to master. The "master" part comes from the competitive level of the game, and the general difficulty of all the little things that add up.

plus there is no rail, which is the easiest weapon of all

One can only create an argument(s) for it being a candidate of ONE of the hardest FPS games, not THE.

For it to be THE hardest FPS, you would have to compare it to every single FPS game ever made.

You would also have to define the elements of an FPS which make it "harder". People can claim that recoil is a skill and hard to master etc, and since you can't truly define the "difficulty" of any element of any game, it's a never ending argument :)

Perhaps one could argue that the number of things that must be considered simultaneously to be a decent indicator of a games difficulty.

In a QL duel, one has to simultaneously think about:

Movement (strafe jumping etc is certainly one of the more complex movement scheme's in any game I've ever seen)
Aim
Item timing (at least two items at once, sometimes more ofc)
Positioning
Enemies Health/Armor
Enemies Positioning/Speed
Enemies Intent (based upon your approximation of health/armor/weapons/position/frag difference)
etc

It's a nice question, but I don't think it can ever be definitively answered :)

Thanks Hume!

If they voluntarily play and praise America's Army then they are a bunch of imbeciles and cannot be reasoned with. Dont bother arguing with them. It would be a waste of time and brain cells.

how so? americas army was awesome

worst fps I ever played

ass thingy...

Its a game designed for recruiting brainless grunts to a profession that will leave them impovered, disabled or killed.

it was an obvious recruiting tool but had very intense, difficult gameplay considering how easily you could die or bleed out. Just because it was very slow paced doesnt mean its a bad game.

HLDM was by far the hardest fps to master and play at a high level.

You mean to figure out all bugs/glitches you can use? When you've done that all you need is an aim that doesn't suck.

nah, the competition mode (adrenaline gamer) removed most bugs and cleaned up all the maps. HLDM required so much more from a player to be dominant in comparison to quake.

Nobody plays with glitch fixes, if you play the game you would know that :D.
And nowadays everyone uses wallhack and aimbot, and it's considered legit.

Btw, i'm referring to the original HLDM, not HL2DM.

and if you played ag back in the day (10 years ago) it was an amazing mod the streamlined the game as much as possible and cleaned up so many of the bugs and glitches what vanilla HLDM had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAG6AH2mYNc

Same dance around the maps as always...

wow nice video, really brings back memories

The remains of the ag community is a mess, everyone is cheating because of fear of others cheating, and this is owed to the frenchies Who still play this game.

But i would say its like quake world on sterroids in terms of difficulty without the glitches and the mandatory cheats.

just mix it all together!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFQRx9C8PYw

lol, I bet VAC would beg to differ if Valve bothered to keep up with that game...

I've had a friend who played AA a lot, he said it was hard, but in 2 years time he said, he managed to acquire the highest skill level in the game. Then he said they updated it and it was ruined.

If he said the truth, 2 years are hardly comparable with 10 or more years of Quake. I play it since my first 56k connection and I'm still shit.

Btw, I had a conversation like this....

Me and my friends gather up occasionally for a lan party... this time we chose Quake to play. It's fun, configurable, requires skill, dedication... and it's a classic. It's also a good choice cause some of my friends have a shitty ass computer they use only for browsing the net or playing ancient games like Redneck Rampage / Jagged Alliance 2.

However, there is a friend of mine who can't be arsed to play Quake. He said that he plays for joy, and Quake can't provide it for him, because:

-"It's an ugly old ass piece of shit"
-"You have to go to a red armor rofl it's 2011"
-"It's not realistic at all"
-When he saw my Quake settings, he was shocked: "This is not even about fun anymore, you are shooting large yellow boxes with a green crosshair, and everything looks like fuckin lego land. Bullshit!"
-"Only nerd ass fags play it, and they do it since 99' ROFL... and I don't care about competitions, fuckin' no life nerds, I bet they never got laid once in their pathetic lives"
-"It fuckin sucks, it suckin fucks, it blows.... and I don't like it."
-"I prefer games that are closer to realism... BAD COMPANY 2 IS SO MUCH BETTER AND IT'S SO MUCH SKILLFUL! I PAID A LOT FOR IT BUT I CAN FINALLY PLAY WITH STRANGERS ON THE NET."

At this point, I pretty much gave up. I suggest you do the same.

how come you bother talking to such a stupid cock?

I've nothing against him, and he's like a brother to me. Just because he disagrees with me regarding Quake, I won't go and say he's a cock... Quake is not that important to me when choosing friends :)

its not about his thinking about quake, i meant he appears to be cock like against everything that is not in his well-specified model of his own perfect reality, if he really argumented his opinion as you described it, for me such people arent worth a bit of attention, just sayin' :X

Yeah he has a cocky attitude to Quake. Only to that tho :)

mate of mine compared grenade in QL to noob-tube in MW2, beat that.

I hope you hit him. Real hard.

It depens on level of community. q3/ql was so hard because of level of the best players. Mechanics of cpma are so much harder to master but in the end you play against player and q3/ql players are at the higher level.

This is the truth. The level of competition defines the difficulty, not the mechanics.

Try beating HAL or gaiia in duel or plus/rusian8ths in tdm.

2011 ;)

For duel in Quake Live:

1. Movement. Strafe jumping is essential. It's one of the most difficult core skills to master. You also have to use erratic stepping patterns for dodging and tactical positioning in a fight than can give your aim an advantage. Let's not forget rocket/grenade jumping and plasma climbing.

2. Aim. Hitscan, prediction, and even spam.

3. Timing. It's a daunting task that requires patience and concentration, which most people don't want to put up with at all. In addition to that, you are timing multiple items while processing many other factors and facets of the game. Delaying items comes into play with your ability to time.

4. Awareness. Know where your opponent is. Know how much health/armor he has. Know how much health/armor/ammo you have. Listen for sound ques from footsteps, weapons, pickups, etc. Know when to attack, when to hide, when to chase or run.

Positioning, trapping, feints, spawns, control, and even doing a small amount of damage to deny health bubbles, which can all be further analyzed.

I could write a novel about the skills included to be a master of Quake, from the most minuscule to the most crucial. Technically a master would be at the highest level in all gametypes, which all require a unique set of skills in addition to the core skills. In summation, yes it has one of the highest learning curves. Yes, it requires more skill than most other games, if not all. Any FPS that rivals Quake in this aspect is based off Quake mechanics and is definitely not America's Army.

Like someone mentioned before it depends on how you define "hardest to master". I don't think anyone has mastered Quake or StarCraft or any game that is complex. One can always do something smarter; better; faster; etc.

Perhaps by defining "hardest to master" by saying the hardest to start playing; time/effort to get good; and rise above the "average" players to be among the "top players" you can categorize what it means to "master" a game in the normal/everyday sense. In this definition basically the game that has had more serious/dedicated players for longer and non-broken gameplay mechanics would be the hardest to master. In this case it would have to go to Quakeworld. The reason I say this is that the current level of play in QW requires a great deal of skill to "enter" the community and win games against "average" players let alone start playing at the top level. In this way I think one could define QW duels as the hardest FPS to start and "master".

actually, Flash finished Starcraft multiplayer.

Thank you for your posts, useful arguments galore to fight stupidity among my friends :)

Does anyone here know or play America's Army? Apart from general thoughts, I'd love to compare these two games in particular in order to crush them with a detailed knowledge that I unfortunately do not possess

quake live because of the skill level of players

quake has been played online for over 15 years and some of them keep playing (unlike cs. Not many from 99), which means there are lots of great players all over the world. Doesn't matter if the game has more complicated stuff or if its faster, in the end what matters is the challenge.

Why quake live and not the others? because it's the easiest to start playing and the most active of all 5 of them (if you count ql as 1) there's the chance of playing with old school players that play sporadically and that come from all the other 4 games.
The return of great players, such as toxic and zero4, happens all over the world. In my area (southamerica) I think the greatest players don't play anymore, to the point if they came back they would rape current players and it happens when they do so from time to time.

also i think ql is harder than qw for a very simple reason. QL is a very easy game to play, with simple mechanics and such, so players that come from other fast paced fps games can start playing easily. Ofc q3 players will always have the advantage there, but others can put up a challenge.
Anyone knows qw players that achieved something in q3, ql or any other game? I'm not saying netquake or the early qw era, I'm saying 2003 and over with players like paradoks, locktar, reppie, milton, etc. which are the true masters of quakeworld in an era of a higher level of gameplay, and not czm, zero4, fox, etc.

anyone can come with a "harder" rts than starcraft1 because of mechanics, more micro needed, more units and so on, but starcraft remains as the hardest because of the players.

I enjoyed that

If we're talking about the skill level of the players instead of the game mechanics, then I don't think quake is the obvious choice you make it out to be. This is a game where players don't practice much during breaks between events, practice during the week before an event and will remain in the top 8 - top 10 at the said event (and in the world). What's more, in terms of total hours played, I think CS players are WAY above quake players. If you look at complexity, they were easily one of the best 1.6 teams in the world when they stopped 1.6 to start playing source, but when they came back to 1.6 it took them _one year_ of training hard to even start giving the then top teams a challenge.

lol

qw

I would say the Quake Series for sure, and I have evidence for my argument.

quake requires multitasking skills...

Counter Strike: Source is actually a lot harder since you have to keep your aim in good shape, work on tactics that are much harder than in quake (defending the bomb site, knowing where to throw nades/flash/smoke) and have good positioning, plus, the matches last longer so it's way more exhausting than a simple duel.

Quake is actually a lot harder since you have to keep your aim in good shape, work on tactics that are much harder than in CS:S (defending mega room, knowing where to spam) and have good positioning, plus, you don't get to take breaks during the matches when you die so it's way more exhausting than a simple 5on5 match.

See what I did there?

I just thought it to be harder cause hitboxes sux and you can't actually aim for a hs because you'll miss the hit

That's what counter strike feels like to me a general aim based player.

css really ...?

seriously you must be fucking kidding me :D
i played cs competetively since 2k4/2k5 just after finishing my romance with wolfenstein till 2k8/2k9 when i got burned out with the gameplay, mostly because of fact my clan collapsed and i couldnt be arsed to find a new decent people that are not angry delusional nerds on teamspeak/vt/whatever.
Anyway : lastly i played some mix matches with my uni mates, and i had to give myself lik holf hour after such a break to play on ffa/some aim map to recognize im in my old shape, or maybe even better cause quake gave me a big lesson. Anyway since ive been a lot into cs and rtcw/et and now i play more like for fun in quake, than for getting some results, i must admit this is hardest multiplayer fps i played, teamplay in tdm is way more complex than just covering eachother while running on bombside on cs, i dont even mention aim/movement/brain requirements to just not mock you too much, you should be thankfull ;p

you're comparing a team game with duel which doesn't make sense.

I come from team games and I can tell you that QL TDM is a lot more complex than CSS. in CSS you don't have to time items, you spawn at the same place every round, you have time to rest when you're dead, and the movements are a lot easier. There's more going on and many more things to think about in QL than in CSS.

PROTIP:

change friends

:D

Error 404

omfg NOT FOUND??? SICK BURN ::D:::DDD

The notion of realism ruined gaming.

the hardest and best game is wipeout, ching the bottles of lager, turn up the tekno, and piss a whole day away master air brakes and getting your lap times for to nothing, without a action replay cart

dipping the nose out of corners for the extra .001 off your time

the only game where true perfection wins

"dipping the nose out of corners for the extra .001 off your time

the only game where true perfection wins "

lol defrag

nothing is better then wipeout, its need some playstation 3 release, with 100 tracks instead of the normal 12

every bend, slope, turn, drop, you have to control the air brakes and nose pitch, while working the racing line

there is some hd version of wipeout for ps3

i invented it, and kick ass it is if you got a PS3

http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/wipeout/index.html

#43 in the world for Metropia zone bitcheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

your friends are terrible and they have no clue, promptly kill them and dump the bodies in a river.

just show them cooller vs cypher at quakecon, or cooller at IEM EU finals.

I did that and the only thing I got back was: "fuckin commie nerds lol"

if they say nerds, there u go
you have your answer.

b\c if you need to nerd something is because it is hard to handle in order to be good

quakers are nerds for everyone from other games = quake is "the hardest to master"

pretty much :D

my friend acknowledges the hard factor, he just fuckin hates it and argues that bad company 2 is so much better

so he's basically butthurt

haha, how could I crush his arguement?

What argument? You say that he acknowledges how hard it is to play quake, he simply has a different taste in video games, therefore his argument is already crushed or am I missing something here?

Yeah uh, I didn't make myself clear.

He says that Bad Company 2 is far better than Quake.

The same way you convince your little sister that Justin Bieber is shit.

It was obvious for her.

I hope you get my point though. Arguing over personal taste is pretty pointless. Stop being such a missionary and stop trying to force your belief onto others, everyone's entitled to their opinion and taste whether you disagree or not.

I GUESS YOU ARE RIGHT!

<3

nvc is playing it, so it must be

but he also gets stuck in random things afaik

nope that's disrepute backstabbing him

btw I'm having the same question as the OP but not for America's Army, I need some info on Bad Company 2.

To sum up in a few words; you have years of practice in any Quake? Then, you will RAPE in BC 2, maybe less than a week. : )

i never saw pro matches in bc2 but i played it alot on chaos publics. its a fun game. enemy territory is different but imo harder. if a normal guy plays against an et proteam he thinks they aimbot and he will get outsmarted from position play. battlefield has vehicles that destroys infantery balancing (just my perspective).

ROTFL. show them rapha vs spart1e quakecon 09

Movement
Dodge
Aim
Item timing
Positioning
Weapons you need
Enemies Health/Armor
Enemies Positioning
Enemies Intent
Enemies weapons
Counting enemies ammo
Adapting to different play styles
Spawn Killing
Clock
Playing out of control
Playing in control
Setting up traps

sif anyone thinks about any of that.. all you need to know is where the fuck the +back key is :D

Flaming / Insults
Excuses
Rage Qutting
Spamming Smileys

You remind me the difference between q3 and ql (especially before the hitbox increase)

Q3 (OSP not CPMA) is like what you decribed. Ql is more like:

Player A:

Movement
Dodge
Aim
Item timing
Positioning
Weapons you need
Enemies Health/Armor
Enemies Positioning
Enemies Intent
Enemies weapons
Counting enemies ammo
Adapting to different play styles
Spawn Killing
Clock
Playing out of control
Playing in control
Setting up traps

+

average-good rockets and aggressive

VS

Player B:

Nothing of the above

+

excellent rockets and +back

-----------------------------
= Player B wins!

It doesn't sound now too complicated, doesn't it?

too true :(

you forgot to add a brain to player a, that's why he loses

I haven't add a brain to player b either

also if it required a brain, I would love it, like I did in q3

Its pointless to discuss without defining what "Master" means in this discussion.

is it:

how hard it is to:
Go from a 0 to average player ?

Go from average to top 10 player?

Go from 0 to top 10 player ?

or time needed to excel in those mentioned?

or maybe:
is it entering the biggest tournament in the world available in the particular game right now and win?

what if its a team game, is the teamplay aspects involved in mastery?

Is it the amounts of gameplay mechanics one has to learn to become average?

is it the depth of thos mechanics?


point is , define further or just give up the discussion.

All same concept tho...

Run around and shoot people

you don't actually run in cs or cod, you just stand near a corner or behind a box

And what do you do if you're blinded by someone that's flashed a position where you're sitting?










Mmm?

1- blid shoot in every direction you think the enemy is coming
2- stay still, maybe he doesn't see you
3- have a nap, because it's boring anyway
4- [you get killed] go to have a nap in bed, because it'll be morning before the round ends

you dont get blinded you turn the fuck around

And while your back is turned they shoot you

gg

Sorry there Jacob Barnett

- Show them the bridge to rail jump. Give them a week to do it (we are talking for just a jump).
- Tell them to try to win a duel, or even frag someone on a duel.
- Fatal1ty the supposed best gamer in the world is a quaker.
- Many quakers succeeded to top or be good at other games, but the opposite doesn’t stand true. Also, many are successful at poker.

Quakers used to be the best good looking, smartest and most interesting persons among gamers. I remember one of the best female gamers in early Q3 did a photoshoot for playboy and many quakers, like sujoy and czm, were bright students at prestigious Universities. These doesn’t hold true though in ql, since many ppl migrated from other games like CS. Therefore, ql has now many fat and stupid players like any other game.

bridge to rail in quake3. In ql it's absurdly easy to pull off.

OSP@125fps is just as easy, cpma is harder.

I still can't do it on OSP :(

weird, it's really barely different than osp @ 125fps.

Yeah I could do the top jump on pt4 near every time in osp, I struggle to do it in quakelive though.

im praccin it for 20 minutes every day, and still cant do it in a match... the reason why i fail on dm6 so hard :X

What? dm6? I'm talking about pt4.

reply chain started with dm6, my bad? :>

Play more DeFRaG.

That's one of the things I loved about cmpa vq3 b2r was hard but you could master it.

most of ppl here miss very importanc factor, which is experiance from previous games...

I started 7 years ago with CoD, then ET and RtCW, now im playing quake for like one month...

getting average was much harder in ET than in QL, mostly because i have enough experiance to quickly spot essential factors of the game and "master" them...

However if we take a guy without any online gaming experiance and make him play Quake and any other random game, it will be harded for him to master quake, because its got more "vital spots" of gameplay, and they are much more complicated...

good point

average is a lot lower in ql as a lot of people are new to the game.

and?

just saying when when you went to ET (assuming it was an established game by then) the average would of been at a higher level due to lower numbers of new gamers.

Were as in ql there is an influx of new gamers making it lower. You have to take that into consideration when you say it was much harder to get into ET then ql. If it had been say Q3 who knows.

I guess we can easly compare QL and ET, as both are free, and i started to play them more serious after 2 years after relase

plus dont forget most of qw,q2,q3 plays QL so even with more newcomers it still have a lot of quake for live players

yeah true never thought of that

CoD. lol

hey fuck you, CoD1 was skilled, even if it was a camp fest

Cmon, you don't even believe it yourself. :)

i belive you didnt play it, and have no idea what are you talking about

Don't get all emotional.

depends on the competition and time played overall, qw is hard as fuck as long as some of the oldschoolers are around and not too rusty.

starcraft is probably the hardest game right now, or used to be right before sc2 took off. ql is probably the hardest shooter aslong as we keep having money tournaments every few months.

Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast

Hot damn, I was just playing through that single player recently (last couple weeks). I found it in my garage in a pile of disks and thought 'fuck it go on then'

As soon as I realized it was a Q3 engine I strafe jumped half the maps... Kinda felt like cheating but was oh so fucking fun with force jump

I vaguely remember playing the multiplayer on that game years ago and it was awesome. Wonder if people are still on it... Never bothered to check


edit: class, just loaded up the multiplayer and turns out a few people do. Maybe 5 servers populated. One seemed to have a 4v4 CTF game going on (wouldn't let me join though cause of teams :[) but I had a ping of like 200 on all the servers anyway. Looked damn fun on the CTF though

I believe it is now more popular in the first version of the game before the patch. 1.02 rather then 1.04. The patch drastically changes the game play and some didn't like that so stuck around with the original. The communities that patched up the game have dwindled away over the years and there is nothing left of mine.

JK2 was the multiplayer game I played before Quake 3 and listing the variables would suggest it would be a much harder game to master then quake.

I remember playing it a shit ton years ago. No idea what patch I was on since I just installed it from the disc (but I guess it's the first version of whatever since it's old as fuck disc)

Battletoads.

I loved that game.

I hated that game.

Yeah it was a right cunt of a game :D
Me and my friend used to play it and we always got stuck on the fucking hoverbike level. The first and only time one of us beat it I went on to finish the rest of the game in one sitting, he was so pissed

any game with enough time and proper genetic "blessing" is hard to master don't see any1 better than other in terms of being able to limit the capacity of self-expression

SC:BW, no doubts.

Who watched it a lot / knows about the complexity of the game, will agree.

i doubt

BROODWAR MOTHERFUCKER

broodwar your mother

u forgot about worms world party tetris and bubble volley, not even mentioning mario

would have posted it, but he said FPS games

If he hadn't posted fps, SCBW would take this fairly easily.

I meant fps in particular, because when it comes to general talking about the difficulty of pc games, SC is a firm winner :]

If to master means to play the game perfectly - hell no, ql is nowhere near as hard as qw, cpm, q4, pk, wsw, hldm. In any case BW is tons harder to master than any fps imo.

"hardest to master" is a useless phrase, it has a masochistic meaning behind it - there are lots of stupid things that are hard to master but only are good for show value as to SHOW you can do it (surviving a fall from a 20 meter building, dunno... hard to explain/give examples really)

apart from that:
pretty much an useless discussion really

none of the other fps have had great competitive worldwide fame and success for over 10 years, there's a reason to that

the reason being not dumbed down enough

QL got dumbed down alot (trickjumps, hitboxes etc) so if anything Q3 would be hardest to master. At the same time I love those dumb downs since there was no real value to the difficulty to some physics exploits or some obscure in-game knowledge (rectangle hitboxes..). so noone who wasn't at a certain level could even appreciate that difficulty, which is never a good thing imo.

yeah, ql is rounded down quite a bit (in a lot of ways). its better for the lower-level players, but theres a lot less to think about (sometimes). i think q3/df physics are the best ever, and cant really be improved (aside from removing a few annoying bugs).

i prefer dueling in ql, because its more comfortable in that gametype. any other gametype (ctf, ctfs, ca, etc.) is better in q3/cpma.

for me, quake is the "easiest" to master, because my aim is shitty, and most of those slower games are more aim-heavy than quake. in quake, theres strafejumping, item control, map control etc. (assuming we're talking about a duel), but in other games, theres mostly just aim and map control. since theres no advanced movement techniques, and the movement in general is way slower, those games rely more on aim than anything else. and lemme tell you, my aim is fucking horrible.

although, i usually have no trouble getting ok at most other games. i just havent been able to convince any of my other modern-gamer friends to try quake, so i dont know how well an experienced CoD player would fare in the quake world.

ur so wrong with this "other games are more aim heavy"

how am i wrong?

first of all Quake requires different kind of aim for every weapon... trackin, prediction, point&click... the game is faster than most of nowadays shooters and its harder to track something that is moving faster...

the only harder thing is spread, non existing in quake, but its just matter of getting used to it... and tbh spread makes aiming more luck based, cause u can hit headshot while aiming at feet

the aim is different, yes.

what i meant is that a larger portion of the game is dedicated to aim, because there is no strafejumping or item timing in other games. so theyre like 80% aim, while quake is only 30% or whatever. they are more "aim heavy" in that all you do is aim. and when all you do is aim, i lose, because i cant aim for shit. thats what i was getting at.

Iono, there are many games where i get more pickups than my opponent but since i'm pulling a 15% accuracy and my opponent is putting up a 38% accuracy, i still lose.

well obviously aim is still a big part of quake, but its less important than other games. you would have died a lot more if there were no items for you to fall back on.

nah, spread is easy to control. The hard part is shooting the right brown spot on ur screen.

I used to be able to do bridge-to-rail jumps in q3 osp with 40 fps and pmove 1. Now, juvenile needs 2 hours to learn it. And back then it took me over a week. Fuck this shit. Things are getting way too easy i.e. hitboxes. I used to have great aim and now everyone is shitting on me.

Sorry, random rant.

I still love Quake though and it is by far the most skillful game I have ever played. Also, even more important, it gives me long-term motivation. There are not many games that can give me that. But I guess since I am rather old (in terms of Quake years) it is mainly the pathetic community that keeps my interest alive. I remember screaming when fazz took the mh on t7 vs spartie. I felt like a 10 year old.

Quake is awesome and having played the game for a decade I must say that it will always remain a part of my life.

> I used to be able to do bridge-to-rail jumps in q3 osp with 40 fps and pmove 1.

If you were using pmove then fps doesnt matter, it was a lot easier with pmove , so your comparision with new players makes no sense.

it is still fucking hard with 40fps you dipshit. it would be virtually impossible to do without pmove 1. so whats ur fucking point asdf

Though words for such weak message "if it would be bla bla". Q3 OSP 40fps pmove 1, those jumps are stupidly easier with the broken pmove fix, even at such low fps, been there done dat, Mr ITG. :D

i prolly was just as shit as i am now

Maybe juvenile is more talented than you are?

Juvenile did not play Q3. You also cannot compare osp movement with QL (leaving the 40fps argument out as well).

At Q3/OSP for me it was always harder to jump to rail if I played on my local server started from console. For some reason joining my local dedicated server and doing that jump was easier. In both situations a had fixed 125fps and pmove 0. Anyone remember the same situation?

sv_fps 60 on lan was awesome :D

the hardest game to master is q2, hands down.

I think it's the hardest to master among the Quake series at least.

The big difference compared to other quakes is the weapons imo.
They're unbalanced and harder to use. Plus the one you get at spawn (the blaster) is probably the shittiest one of all the quakes.

What's hard about camping MH room with a chaingun and rail on q2dm1?

i guess your friend could master that in an hour or so i mean it's just no skill jumping and shooting

god damnit, the shaft sound alone makes me wanna play qw :D

3> QW

It's taken a very long time for me to have quake live not feel like an unresponsive, sluggish, and just generally sad game.

so you brainwashed yourself?

not a huge fan of this style of gameplay

qw, cpm, pk - best fps games ever! <3

The thing with QuakeLive nowadays is I don't know if I'm getting better or if the game is getting easier..

perhaps you're getting better, and therefore the game appears to have become easier.

"a brainless no-gravity jumping with lasers and no tactics at all"
That are how every noob see the game, they dont understand the movement, aiming (how different weapon work), timing and how importent these things are for it to be nice and fun to paly.

All they see is a unreal tournament "clone" where you can't dubble jumpa and less weapon. They don't know how to strafe, circel jump it never appears to them. Trust me I have struggled so much with my fucking stupid friends about this but they are stupid and I hate them!!! XD


When we talk about this...

Except in cases where multiplayer game is very simple (like tic-tac-toe) or very random, "hardness" of it doesn't really depend on the game itself. It's all about what the players invent to beat each other. Timing/positioning/prediction/movement/etc are not inherently present in QL, these all are tools created by players within the QL mechanics to help them beat each other (if everyone in QL played like novice bots, for example, you'd never even think that strafe jumping is possible). It's your opponents who make the game hard to play, not the game.

Well said.

that describes more the behavior of some sport rather than just a videogame

"Quake has high learning curves"
hmm...
Av3k started playing at 12 and became one of the best at 16.
4 years form zero to master.
If it takes u more than 10 years then u r doing it wrong :P.

how long did it take u to master?

pity he's from POLAND

playing 4 years solid as a kid is worth many years as average gamer time. When you're that age you can play 6-8 hous a day with no stress or worries.

Its a flawed measurement.

I know that Avek often says that in quake little is depended on talent, it's all about harsh, devoted training, but c'mon - Avek was wiedely known as a prodigy kid, "wunderkind" if i remember correct. He would become a master of every game within this period :)

no...

hes developed so quickly because he was young... children are know to be swift learners

Not everyone can be a pro dueler. Talent+ hard work=pro. Without talent you won't reacht the top deal with it.

i got no idea what ur talking about... and ur wrong...

talent is maybe 10% of what u need to become successful at gaming...

If ur talented u will just learn faster...

yet some people train 8 hours a day for 10 years and still aren't at the top

thats impossible... its like learning how to play piano, the more u pracc the better u are...

the real problem is: they are not training... they just play...

there's a difference between getting better and being "pro" or one of the best. Take football as an example a lot of players train all their life, but only a few will reach the very top (champions' league, world cup, etc.). It's the same with gaming: talent does matter.

ur messing talent with predispositions... u cant be the best at quake if ur handeye coordination is bad... u cant be the best in football if ur not fast enough etc etc...

or we could just call it talent, and end discussin

talent: a natural ability to do something well that can be developed by training

end of discussion indeed

idd

or better, end of this stupid discussion. There shouldn't be a discussion to start with. It is like saying the earth is flat.

There's no such thing as "talent". It's just a made up word for lazy ass people who don't want to or do not have the passion nor the dedication to actually exel at something above average level.

The key is deliberate practice.

If you do believe everybody has the same abilities you are clueless.

I can imagine some basic biological/genetical elements predisposing a being for certain abilities. Can't you? We all have a different DNA.

Well, afaik studies has shown that there's absolutely nothing that stands out gentically from someone who is at the very top of their field than someone who is just the average joe.

Can you link to anything which supports your claim?

I wasn't being that deterministic. I was asking why according to you such differences could not sometimes play a role, even minor.

Lexington steele.

Niggas like me with big dicks can become porn stars son. You wit dat tiny dick can practice wit yo hand 24/7 but shit wont grow.

sup?

genius ;D

what is the difference between talent and predispositions?

That's where deliberate practice comes into the picture. You can pratice for 24 hours a day and still not make it to the top unless you actually know EXACTLY how and EXACTLY what you're suppose to practice on. Just plain practice won't get you anywhere, in any field, whatsoever. You will most likely reach the average level but nothing more.

No, everyone CAN become a pro dueler. Saying that you can't because you're not talented is just stupid and it's just limiting yourself.

Gotta love idiots saying "I can't do this/that because I'm not that talented". They're up for failure for the rest of their lives.

A "pro dueler" is someone who makes enough money to meet their needs. Now if you think about it, how many quakelive duelers make enough money to live from it? Only a very few. Not everyone can beat those very few pro duelers even with the right practice. You got to have the right mental and physical abilities such as out of common reflexes, perfect eye-hand coordination, excellent memory (to time items, etc.) and so on, on top of course of a ton of practice.
Again if you believe anyone can beat the top5 ql duelers with the right practice you are seriously mistaking.

All those abilities you've just mentioned are possible to increase by practice alone. Do you actually believe that some people are born with certain abilities that would make them an excellent quake player? If so then you're the one who is both mistaking and clueless.

yeah I do believe that some people tend to be better at competitive gaming than others. Even with the same practice. There's a difference between developing skills and developing them so much as to being able to be the best or one of the very best.

And yes, I do believe that anyone can beat the top 5 with the correct practice unless you're handicapped or retarded. I sure as hell would be able to do it, however I'm admitting the fact that I don't have the aspirations, dedication or the time to put in the hours to do it. Fuck, I don't even own a gaming computer and couldn't care less about pro gaming. It's a joke.

very modest of you. shame that you can't prove it because you don't have a gaming computer or the motivation lol

You don't seriously expect me to buy a gaming rig that I don't want and on top of that put in hours upon hours of deliberate practice to prove that anyone would be able to beat the top 5 in the world?

Do you think this applies universally? I can only assume that you are either very young, or a creationist.

I'm neither very young nor a creation. In fact, I'm quite old to quake standards and I'm an atheist.

I ask because you don't seem to believe in genetic influence over physiology.

he was also coached for a large porton of this learning process IIRC.

Just because he's one of the best doesn't mean he's mastered quake.

If you take "hard to master" by the effort required reach the top3, I would say QL or maybe QW. QL seems to have a more competitive playerbase these days and might be harder because of that.

If you skip the FPS part, SC:BW.

I viewed it as Quake in general, rather than specifically QuakeLive.

The easiest quake is still much more complex, and the main thing IMO that sets it apart is skill based movement. If there's more to moving than just WASD then the vast majority of FPS players would just be dumbfounded.

This discussion with your friends is utterly pointless.

First, because of how dumb these discussions tend to be. I tell you how the apples vs oranges work. Apple fans put together all benefits of apples, claim that those are what defines the best fruit. Oranges fans do exactly the same, focusing on benefits of oranges. Then the two groups meet, and soon they are no longer fighting for apples vs oranges, but for what is the definition of best fruit, every group only trying to bring grist to their own mill.

Second, because your not discussing what you really would like to discuss. Whenever you are wondering what game is the hardest, your true intention is to tell the world you like your game. This will work well with other people who played the same game, a bit less with people playing games of the same kind, a bit less with people playing other kinds of video games, down to people that think video games are evil and your soul is doomed, with whom it may not work at all.

So, since your desire is to share your passion, you should act accordingly. Try to find points in common between the different games, share with your friends the joy of those, and then tell them that there are also other aspects that you like of your game, and as a friend you think they may enjoy those as you do, should they make the appropriate experience. We are all nerds, you know, it's not that hard to find similarities.

This is ABC of human relationships and discussions. Can be applied also here to cpm vs. vq3 bitches.

This.

And I might add:
"As if most of us has ever even truly mastered any game, be it quake or pacman or anything between"

if you mean to master, to become champion and play
perfectly yea quake is one of the most hardest game
to master in my opinion \0/

COD 2 is the hardest, everybody knows that.

She's beautiful.

this "hardest to master" stuff is pointless. different players are capable of being good in different games, someone who spent 5 years playing CS without surpassing medskill could have started Quake and fit perfectly to the gameplay. if a top Quaker started playing a game like RTCW or ET he wouldn't become highskill instantly because "quake is the hardest to master" - he would have a hard fucking time adapting to the game and reaching the level of everyone else, it could even be impossible to do. like a shitload of RTCW players who literally couldn't compete in ET due to minor differences like the addition of rifles/landmines which the ET topscene seem to deal with just fine.

you surely have some of your own example players, who attempted to move from Q2 -> Q3 -> Q4 -> QL or whatever upon release and just COULDN'T compete in them all.

Probably Painkiller is faster and more difficulty; still no doubts that CPMA >>>>> QL; go whatch some cpma matches

Over all the other FPS games Quake are hard to learn and hard to master.

They are wrong you are right. The reason you know that is because anyone who does not play quake can watch a pro quaker and realise they cant do what they see on screen without years of training.

Anyone who plays quake can do everything they see and more in pretty much any other fps they see almost right away.

The difference is, they dont want to because its not as stimulating.

If you can run the 100 meters in, 10 seconds, its not fun racing against those who can do it in 12.

it's like comparing chess to draughts ...
you just know that chess just offers so many more possibilities ... you just don't want devolve playing an inferior game

for 1v1 only
only counting the game mechanics, i give 0 fucks about the competition. i have the least amount of exp with q4, so that one could easily move up or down once i start playing it again.

cpm>qw>q4>vq3cpma>q2>vq3osp>ql

for anyone who is rustled about my bottom list
see apparition_
http://i.imgur.com/Cwbfeqs.png

Wow, you beat rapha, your opinion must be worth like 10 times more than every other's opinion...wooow

wow, you're so good at sarcasm, you must be a comedian....wooow

wooow, yeah i am actually...my sarcams is like 10 times stronger than yours....i will attach a pic of me outsarcasming 5 other pro sarcasmers

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc482/Mon...haggot.gif

painkiller

tbe don't think that makes sense, if cpm or qw, and DEFINITELY q4, was the game that they all played just like they play ql now, i guarantee apparition would have the odd meaningless win against those players just the same, especially since qlranks obviously doesn't give a shit about if games are practise or thrown or even if the opponent lagged out as far as i know. qlranks top 5 opponents defeated is a fun feature but hard to use as a serious point for much of anything

there's the age old question if something like cpm is more skilled and requires quicker thinking because it's faster and less forgiving or if it's less skilled because it's so spammy and more forgiving for instant weapon switch not punishing you as much for poor planning and so on but that's a debate people will agree on right after we reach a global consensus on religion and politics

you still get punished for bad weapon decisions in cpm.
watch a demo from a good player and you'll see that smart weapon decisions still play a huge part in winning.

positioning isn't as important in cpm because of bunnying, but it still matters a lot.

of course it takes a lot of skill to be top player in ql.
however, i believe it will take the average player less time to make it in ql.
for one, demos/strategy for q3/ql are everywhere and strategies havent changed much in almost a decade! the movement is also the easiest out of all the quakes.

compare that to cpm, where there aren't any good tutorials, and demos won't help much if you don't have good movement. you just have to get in there and take the ass whoopings, which makes it too daunting for most people.

i agree with you about using apparition as an example.
probably not the best example to support my case.

anyways, i'm done with debating this shit, it's boring now. going back to making fun of jamerio and general trolling.

The weapon selection time in CPMA is almost instant, that means in conjunction with the fast movement the consequences of getting caught short are mimal and only of significant damage IF<< the opponent has a short stack.

If you get into a fight in CPM with a decent stack and you have a rocket instead of shaft, you could easily take hits, select shaft and still win the shaft battle, in quakelive, the consequences are much harsher and the movement slower, which makes you think more.

thus becoming a better player.

yes, it's almost instant, but you have to take advantage of it or else you won't get far in cpm. you also get punished more severly for holding onto a weap for too long or for shooting an ill-advised rail.

just a small sample of combos every good 1v1er should have in their repertoire.

pg-gren(my fave)
lg-rail
lg-rl
lg-rl-lg-rl
mg-rail
etc, etc,

yes, there are some skills more important in vq3 than in cpm(positioning) , but weapon switching isn't one of them.

nope

looks that way to the untrained eye.
I don't blame you for disagreeing.
you're going to have to play some good cpmers before you'll realize that i'm right. never going to happen tho because the scene in south america is garbage nowadays.

In cpm starting a fight with the wrong weapon doesn't mean losing it. In vq3 200ms (default weapon switch delay) means losing the game, and to that is added another delay based on each weapon reloading time (losing the game....twice in one bad decision). Now tell me in which game weapon selection is more important.

You said positioning isn't as important as in vq3 and any decent vq3 player will tell you how crucial weapon selecting is in it. That's 2-0 in favor of vq3's complexity over cpm's.

edit: and since you are mocking everyone, which is your ql account? I smell another 1200elo hitsu talking crap.

it's not difficult to figure out the right weapon in a vq3 fight or to predict when to switch(seriously, it's not hard to remember the weapon switch time in your head in vq3/ql) yes, it's a very important skill to learn in ql, but it's not that difficult.
hitting good pg-gren combos is very difficult and is only possible in cpm.


as for people jumping into a fight with a wrong weapon.
good players know that jumping into a fight with a crap weapon is sometimes the only way to get a defensive player to fight, you guys would know this if you played with legitimately good players.
now if stacks are even and you do make a legit mistake, you can switch faster, but if the other person is any good, they will make you pay BADLY for it. every millisecond counts in cpm, even the 5-20ms it takes to switch between the correct weapon is enough time to a cost you a game.

edit: i'm not mocking everyone, just the sa scene.
yes, i have watched SA 1v1/CA through qlranks and youtube(stumbled onto the scene on youtube)
i do think top ql players are great and deserve all the praise they get, i'm not hating on them in the slightest. good position is a difficult skill, and i love seeing players like rapha taking it to the next level

i'm not active right now, but i will gladly tell you my info/upload demos when i start again. i know i'm good and have nothing to hide unlike jamerio/hitsu, etc. tdm is by far my favorite mode, but its kind of pointless to be active when the scene is so dead here.

edit: positioning is still important in cpm, but it isn't as important because you can rj out/bunny out of situations faster.
aiming is harder in cpm tho because players run faster and because of the jumping speeds ;p

2-1

that's enough, i'm moving on..
fucking jamerio had to reply after i said i was done :/

yet 'pro's fuck weapon selection (beginning and mid battle) all the time.

So whats your account?

i know they fuck it up, you'll never have perfect weapon selection, but it's not that difficult to be good at.

not going to prove anything, but here you go.

tbe_
new account(my old accounts died long ago)
only game was done with a wireless setup and i didn't finish

my old accounts had
40+ lg-43-46% of my shots and all in beta mode/early ql with the weaker lg/smaller hitbox. my setup wasn't even good either, i'm sure i could have hit 43-45% had i changed a couple of settings.
i also had a lot of time on those accounts, too. no proof, just take my word for right now.
i'm not going anywhere, so you can bug me any time for demos.
actually, i'll just send them your way when i'm playing again :)
once i get out of this house(my ping has tripled in the past year, it's not bad everywhere tho, my brother pings 9 to speedtest at his location), i'll have them ready for you.

heres my fastest speedtest
my net was so much nicer just a year ago :/

http://i.imgur.com/C4ha2DZ.png

I'm not saying that your comments are discredited because of not having a sexy 2k elo account, but if you are going to say everyone's bad then you have to back it up, which right now isn't.

edit: and bragging about accuracy is the noobish thing ever.

i never did hide anything, so dont try to change the topic.

and yeah : cpm insta switch means weapon selection has no impact on the game. same as positioning, item timing.

cpm is brainless.

you're not even good at ql, lol.
your insults don't faze anyone.

i'll gladly upload demos when i return, but go ahead and attack me for not being active(i'm sure that's what you're going to do next).

edit: go msg ska and setup a game with him. he's a mid level dueller from your neck of the woods. you should at least put up a fight since you have superior weapon decision skills.
have him or someone else make a proper cpm cfg for you, so the game will be as fair as possible. i'll + you for life if you go through with this.

what insults? i just stated facts.


what demos? 15 minutes of lg2rg combos in cpm? or your ql demos? i dont care, they are irrevalant. what matters is your fake feel of cpm superiority over vq3.


obviously cpm is hard, but hard in a different way than vq3. emphasis on swift, fast movement makes it hard, unlike vq3 where position is dominant element of gameplay, and you can basiclly walk over whole map like evil does.

do q2/q4 weapon switches take more skill than ql, yes or no?

edit: i fully admit ql takes more positional skill.
it's much slower, so theres more time to focus on position. not a night and day difference as you think, but it's definitely noticable to anyone.

i do think ql is a good game, not exciting half the time, but still a worthy game. i also don't think cpm is perfect either.

there, now you see where i stand, i'd write more, but i have to go walk my dog.

bbiab

regards your edits: as i said wepon selection is irrevalant to cpm duel outcome, and i would get easly owned against a guy whos got the grip on the movement and overall tactics used in cpm. in short words: i have little to none experience with cpm.

i didnt play q2/q4, cant tell.


hope you had fun with your dog :-) what breed is he?

haven't gone yet, putting on my shoes.
he's a handful!
american bulldog and pitbull
a lot of fun tho :>



bbiab to talk more

i think my friend has one of them :d very playful dogs :D

i have labrador myself, great way to pick up chicks :D

I dunno lol \(°_o)/

who keeps digging up those zombie threads

Well well well... I see a lot of stupid comments above so I'll make a sane one.

The "mastering of a game" comes down to learning how you can defeat your opponent.
This is mainly defided in 2 parts.
1) pure skill (movement, aim, timing, prediction of opponent etc.)
2) use of skill (tactics, possitioning etc.)

These 2 points obviously are related. Because, for instance, the better your movement the easier it is to hold good possitioning. But you still have to know what good possitioning actually is.

The game enforces the rules (strafejumping / weapons / armors / bombsites (brrrrrrrr) / map layout / etc.) and those rules then allow skills to develop.

The general consensus seems to be that the more options you have for defeating your opponent the harder the game is to master.

If you want to compare games then you just see how much pure skill is needed and how you can use those skills to win.

I'll stick to quake, because that's the game I know most about, to give some examples.

Cypher: insane movement + timing -> being able to speed up the game immensely while keeping control of the items.

Av3k: insane dodging + stable aim -> high damage output in fights allowing him to break control easier.

Cooller: insane predictions + rl skillz -> setting up traps like crazy.

Rapha: even better insane predictions + great overall knowledge -> always picking the right options in fights.


So what I'm trying to say is that none of them have completely mastered the game (as rapha lacks cypher's movement and av3k's dodging ability etc. etc.). But it all depends on how you can use your skills to take down the opponent.
And quake gives you plenty of ways to use your skills to take down the opponent.

quake is an easy game. i defeated all the bosses. make it harder!

for me, quake 2 was the hardest to master, it is quite challenging if you want to full master it

are you seriously implying that you mastered quake live?

Quake Live is the easiest quake game in my opinion ( didn't played q4 ), q2 was so freaking hard to learn ( i am not only talking about the movements but also the jump mod which required alot of tricky stuffs like changing the fps for certain jumps and make different binds etc... )

after playing q2 for a while, playing Quake LIVE became so easy for me, i mean, movements and all that stuffs were just a matter of " getting used to the new engine ", even hitting enemies is still easy ( don't mind my high ping ) .

we have a different defintion of mastering a game, i guess

Especially if changing fps is a skill to master.

definetly one of the hardest skills to master, agree

it is not about typing the cmd lol, it is about adjusting each fps with a certain jump and in here i am talking about the jump mod in q2, try it and you will see the difference and more, you will learn how high/low fps can effect your game ( not talking about smoothness )

Quake Live is easy. It's hilarious to watch n00bs like "kennysgetndown", "sumtingwongyo", "ragnar0kz28", and "sauceyclouds", whine about the LG and accuse veteran players in Tier 4 of hacking. Too funny.

lol quake

cpm>qw>q4>QL/vq3>q2
deal with it !!!

No way to possibly say which game is the hardest but one thing I think quake holds above all other fps is it's lack of forgiveness.

One mistake in mechanics can cause you to lose every advantage you had,

One bad decision can cause you to lose every advantage you had.


On the flip side

One perfect read on your opponent can crush their advantage and momentum

One perfect engagement can crush your opponents presence on the map.

Spose alot of this can be held true for most competitive titles but Quake tends to allow players to force these mistakes in countless amounts of ways.

I remember watching a cod4 tourney a couple years back, best of the best etc...Was great to watch but from my point of view the game didn't allow either team to force mistakes out of the other...it was more a case of who executes the planned strategies better.

also you can call your opponents fags and cheaters a lot

TIMENUDGE CHEAT FUCK 1 WEAPON FGGT
EDIT: WARP MORE