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Forums > Quake Live Forum

how many cm's to make a 360° turn? (117 comments)

( Forum: QL)

Posted by Vhite @ 13:47 CDT, 24 May 2010 - iMsg

How many cm's does it take to you to make a 360?

35129 Hits

<< prev QL thread || next QL thread >>

<< Comment #1 @ 20:04 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

judge717

15.875

Edited by judge717 at 20:05 CDT, 24 May 2010

<< Comment #2 @ 20:20 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

mammon

17.685

<< Comment #3 @ 20:48 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

ZeritoN

Bout the same size as my cock

I use very low sensitivity by the way

<< Comment #26 @ 10:23 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Lethe - Reply to #3

sensitivity 2
mouseaccel 3
in_mouse -1

10/10 mousebar in windows?

Edit: YEAH. Razer Mamba.

:D

Edited by Lethe at 11:29 CDT, 25 May 2010

<< Comment #27 @ 10:26 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

euclid - Reply to #26

you forgot he has some 5700dpi mouse too.

<< Comment #84 @ 14:00 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

ZeritoN - Reply to #27

LIES NOTHING BUT LIES AND SLANDER

400dpi, 6/11, 45cm for 360 :(

<< Comment #28 @ 10:31 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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ZeritoN - Reply to #26

[insert terrible joke somehow relating mouse accel to doing the bad thing]

<< Comment #29 @ 10:55 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

mammon - Reply to #28

i can go zero to hundreds of millions in 12 seconds

<< Comment #107 @ 08:33 CDT, 20 July 2010 >>

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becks - Reply to #28

with enough accel and friction you might have an explosion on your mousepad.

<< Comment #106 @ 08:25 CDT, 20 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (82.46.94.135) - Reply to #3

2" for a 360 isnt very low dude

<< Comment #4 @ 21:31 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

spinmove_

<< Comment #5 @ 21:53 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

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Crasis

It's been awhile since a poll like this was done. Might be interesting to see how the average has moved since last time.

http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=589347

2003!

p.s. Make it a poll!

<< Comment #6 @ 21:53 CDT, 24 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

ralph

<< Comment #18 @ 09:23 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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viaIImaximus - Reply to #6

same

<< Comment #7 @ 00:46 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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ruuven

last i checked it was 14cm but i think ive slightly changed it since then.

<< Comment #8 @ 01:32 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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Dynamix

I don't have my desk set up to do a 360, just do two 180 turns.

<< Comment #9 @ 03:26 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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euclid

~45, maybe 50cm.

<< Comment #10 @ 03:45 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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dansen

~30

<< Comment #11 @ 04:02 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

wingz

<< Comment #12 @ 04:04 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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tbone

How do you measure with accel?

My sens is pretty low now, with low accel.

<< Comment #13 @ 04:16 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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link - Reply to #12

this is why this never works... some have accel in their OS and dont even know it

<< Comment #15 @ 04:33 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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tbone - Reply to #13

Well you can use injx's measurement system (using mouse input 2), but I changed it since I last measured...

<< Comment #24 @ 10:19 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

tbone - Reply to #15

Found it:

I = 44.22cm (per 360)

J = ( M * R^2 * A ) / 1000

J = (0.011 * 24800 * 0.318) / 1000

J = 0.0868

<< Comment #25 @ 10:21 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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tbone - Reply to #24

For the recond, my sens about 5 or 7 years ago was 13cm no accel.

<< Comment #36 @ 14:04 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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tourist - Reply to #24

your accel is 0.318

<< Comment #37 @ 14:15 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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tbone - Reply to #36

// MOUSE
// _____
set in_mouse "2"
set sensitivity "4.7"
set cl_mouseaccel "0.32"
set cl_mousesenscap "0"
set m_yaw "0.011"
set m_pitch "0.013"

:)

<< Comment #38 @ 14:19 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

tourist - Reply to #37

I like numbers.

<< Comment #113 @ 05:10 CDT, 21 July 2010 >>

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tbone - Reply to #37

Lower now....

<< Comment #71 @ 13:35 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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ralph - Reply to #15

what is zee measurement system?

<< Comment #72 @ 14:05 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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tbone - Reply to #71

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1370847

<< Comment #19 @ 09:34 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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son1dow - Reply to #13

well, most have no accel both in windows and ql

<< Comment #20 @ 09:50 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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Crasis - Reply to #12

Probably the closest thing you could do is either:

1) Move your mouse really really slowly and assume you're moving it slow enough for 0 accel, then state that number without accel or

2) Move your mouse relatively fast and just estimate based on that what your equivalent non-accel sensitivity is.

<< Comment #14 @ 04:25 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

deji

No accel and I think it was about 16cm

(edit) it's actually about 22cm

Edited by deji at 01:53 CDT, 26 May 2010

<< Comment #16 @ 05:28 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

kaliberr44

8cm

<< Comment #17 @ 08:58 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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extaleR

22,5cm

<< Comment #21 @ 09:51 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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HowHard

aboot 15cm now, just changed from 7-8cm.

Don't know how any1 can play with really really low sens like the 20-30cm guys. I'm just lazy though :)

Agree though make a poll.

<< Comment #61 @ 09:19 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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zealot - Reply to #21

20-30 is not 'really really slow' :p

<< Comment #22 @ 09:56 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

TAFKAagardenchair

is this about taking a dump?

<< Comment #23 @ 10:07 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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butchji

Like ~35cm

<< Comment #30 @ 11:33 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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Roswell47

If you hadn't read the topic title and just some comments you could've thought this was a discussion about something horrible.

<< Comment #31 @ 11:59 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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Heartlesss

no accel

25-30cm/360°

<< Comment #32 @ 12:18 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Toin Coss

25cm/fov 120 for close range and movin around
50cm/fov 90 for mid range aiming
75cm/fov 60 for long range

bind m2 midzoom
bind m3 longzoom

<< Comment #34 @ 12:32 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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butchji - Reply to #32

rofl

<< Comment #51 @ 23:12 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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yikes - Reply to #32

just use fov 110 and get used to it.

<< Comment #56 @ 01:35 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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Toin Coss - Reply to #51

why compromise when you can have it all? large targets to aim at and high fov for awareness/moving around

<< Comment #81 @ 09:51 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

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Heartlesss - Reply to #32

20cm/fov 120 for close range and movin around
40cm/fov 100 for mid range aiming
60cm/fov 80 for long range

fixed ;D

no but seriously, you should try it.

Anyway, fov 100 for everything and 50 for zoom ftw.

<< Comment #33 @ 12:25 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

ambro

26cm with no accel. otherwise i use new accel style with accel 3, offset 2 and senscap 7.

<< Comment #35 @ 12:40 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

daver

23.1cm

Edited by daver at 21:43 CDT, 28 July 2010

<< Comment #39 @ 14:21 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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baron Railgun :

unpossible
distance not equals angles :p

the real question is how many cm is it needed to turn a lady 180

<< Comment #42 @ 15:18 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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euclid - Reply to #39

...wouldn't that make her... upside down?

<< Comment #43 @ 15:49 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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baron Railgun : - Reply to #42

depending the centi/meters must it be

<< Comment #40 @ 14:30 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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hemostick

Still around 40cm.

<< Comment #41 @ 14:45 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

u3a6

4cm

<< Comment #44 @ 15:55 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

dem0n

<< Comment #45 @ 16:34 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (93.132.106.200)

omg lol? the guys who need >10cm to do a 360 please YouTube it! I want to see if it really looks as if these people are wiping their tables instead of doing a 360 in a video game.

as for me, roundabout 3 cm (sensitivity 22, cl_mouseaccel 0.75, m_jaw 0.03)

<< Comment #46 @ 16:39 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

GreenMeanie - Reply to #45

sensitivity 3
accel 0.1
yaw 0.22
400dpi/cpi

<< Comment #47 @ 16:42 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

tbone - Reply to #45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlqJlUqz-hA

Honestly though, 20cm is about average. I need about 5cm (Or one hand movement) to do a 180 I guess, using accel.

<< Comment #54 @ 00:20 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (93.132.97.173) - Reply to #47

Thank you! This video confirmed my assumption that it is looking as if the guys are wiping their tables. ;)

<< Comment #58 @ 04:27 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

noctis - Reply to #54

thats 50-60cm tho

<< Comment #48 @ 17:39 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #45

I love when a guy goes OLOLRZ MORE THAN 10 CM WTF but is anal enough to use m_yaw 0.03.

btw, sens 4, in_mouse 2, wmo : 26cm.
Think I'm gonna go back to 3.25 or 3.5 now that I don't care anymore about cpm or warsow.

Edited by faer1e at 17:41 CDT, 25 May 2010

<< Comment #53 @ 00:20 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (93.132.97.173) - Reply to #48

> but is anal enough to use m_yaw 0.03.

:)

Through the past 10+ years I tried both, high values for m_yaw and m_pitch vs high sensitivity and I always felt more comfortable with a higher sensitivity rather than different settings for the X/Y axis. To prefer high or low sens might depend on whether you are an "arm" or a "hand" player. I found it somehow "healthier" to keep my arm on the table and only move my hand.

My initial comment wasn't meant to offend anyone, if so, excuse me!

<< Comment #63 @ 09:21 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

zealot - Reply to #53

i aim with my wrist and fingers (no wiping the table) and used a sens between 18-22cm/360 in thepast

<< Comment #50 @ 19:12 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Crasis - Reply to #45

tBone posted mew, which is around 50-60cm/360.

Here's a couple more reasonable. You can't see their screens but you can get the general gist of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKiD2gyUzMU

Cypher, about 25cm/360 with accel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkd8Wv3uroc

Av3k, about 30cm/360 without accel

<< Comment #55 @ 01:14 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

klawd - Reply to #50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIGoUAX5RHM

That's a lot faster than 25cm for a 360.

<< Comment #57 @ 04:03 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

oreozz - Reply to #55

i guess he meant without accel it would be 25 which sounds about right

and avek uses a much higher sens than 30. it's probably 15 and he forgot to account he uses an 800dpi mouse.

<< Comment #59 @ 04:28 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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noctis - Reply to #57

no, av3k actually has smth around 30

<< Comment #75 @ 21:33 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

shady8701 - Reply to #59

How much is yours btw?

<< Comment #94 @ 18:42 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

calleking - Reply to #75

12.12 cm.

<< Comment #60 @ 09:06 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

klawd - Reply to #57

Cypher
360/(5*0.018*(450/2.54))=22.58cm
(0.018*(450/2.54)^2*0.1)/1000=0.056

Av3k
360/(1.72*0.022*(800/2.54))=30.21cm

<< Comment #66 @ 11:03 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #60

Didn't he use the exact same settings with his wmo? I'm not sure because I know the Razer suits told him to use his S1gn4tUr3 Deathadder or whatever during exhibition matches and I never found a cfg older than late 08.

Edit : Cypher ofc.

Edited by faer1e at 11:04 CDT, 26 May 2010

<< Comment #67 @ 11:48 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

klawd - Reply to #66

Cypher with WMO
400 DPI / m_pitch 0.018 / m_yaw 0.018 / sensitivity 5 / cl_mouseAccel 0.1

Cypher with Abyssus
450 DPI / m_pitch 0.018 / m_yaw 0.018 / sensitivity 5 / cl_mouseAccel 0.1

<< Comment #68 @ 12:01 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #67

Someone should mail him the formula to recalculate his sens and accel.

<< Comment #76 @ 03:28 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

lewl - Reply to #68

or maybe he got used to it cause he is fucking 0wn1ng?

<< Comment #80 @ 09:00 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #76

no shit maigret.

<< Comment #62 @ 09:21 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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Crasis - Reply to #55

Well I wasn't trying to get the numbers exact, merely to give a more reasonable contrast to mew's fairly insane 50-60cm/360

It's difficult to tell the exact cm/360 through a calculation anyways. The reason being that I've found the formula for calculating the sensitivity to be off by a constant multiple for any mouse other than the original 400 dpi MS mice. Probably has something to due with 800 dpi not really being 800 dpi on newer mice. I'm not entirely sure.

<< Comment #64 @ 09:30 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

klawd - Reply to #62

Av3k's old sensitivity with the MX310
360/(3.5*0.022*(400/2.54))=29.69cm

Av3k's new sensitivity with the Salmosa
360/(1.72*0.022*(800/2.54))=30.21cm

I don't know what you mean but that formula always works if you meet the following requirements:

6/11 Windows sensitivity or Raw input enabled (in_mouse 2)
Enhance Pointer Precision Unchecked
No in-game acceleration

Edited by klawd at 09:36 CDT, 26 May 2010

<< Comment #65 @ 09:45 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Crasis - Reply to #64

I understand how the calculation works.

Well, let me give you a concrete example of what I mean. With a WMO, I can physically measure a value for cm/360 that's +/- 0.1cm/360 from the calculated value.

With a Deathadder, the same physical measurement vs calculation is about +/- 1cm/360 depending on dpi. It can be worse or better. I won't bother giving an example for the xai since it's known to have its own acceleration issues.

I wasn't intending to say that you were wrong in any way, but merely to point out that I've found deviations from the calculation when dealing with newer mice. That's all.

<< Comment #69 @ 12:19 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

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Toin Coss - Reply to #65

My old DA had 1700 dpi, not 1800 or w/e it was advertised as. If I used 1700 in the calculation it would come out to exactly the same cm value as the ruler measurement.

For some mice their "dpi" can also depend on the height, if you raise them with custom mousefeet they can track worse/differently. And of course the surface you're using them on (like any mouse thats not compatible with the icemat).

<< Comment #70 @ 13:19 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Crasis - Reply to #69

Yeah, that's actually why I mentioned +/-. On hard pads, I'd find that the dpi seemed lower than advertised. On cloth pads, I'd find that it was higher than advertised.

The older wmo/ie3.0/etc. tech did not seem to have as much of a surface dependence as the newer optical sensors. The laser sensors are just all over the place for consistency on different surfaces.

<< Comment #88 @ 15:19 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

crea* ' - Reply to #64

Which facts are you basing this on? Did you ask avek personally?

Because when I look at his game he makes a whole lot of unnecessary moves, in fact he constantly makes very fast moves with his mouse all the time, which players normally don't do with such a low sens without accel.

Also iirc he used sens 3.5 at first with salmosa which *could* suggest he used 800 dpi as with the mx310, but later switched to ~1700 dpi or whatever the highest value of the salmosa is (it's not 1800) and thus used half the sens..

Edited by crea* at 15:22 CDT, 31 May 2010

<< Comment #89 @ 16:21 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

klawd - Reply to #88

Well, you made me doubt and now that I think of it, you're probably right.
I really had no idea the MX310 could be set to 800 DPI, I always thought it was locked at 400 DPI.

<< Comment #104 @ 06:18 CDT, 2 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

crea* ' - Reply to #89

Heh well, your opinion and what noctis said got me thinking too and I reevaluated by watching some youtube videos of him playing, and its funny because suddenly I could see him playing with low sens even when I watched a demo. This might have been one of these cases for me where you only see what you expect to see.

<< Comment #105 @ 06:24 CDT, 2 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

crea* ' - Reply to #104

This vid of avek playing q4 convinced me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85u2kh0Pr_I

<< Comment #91 @ 17:40 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #88

30cm/360 and while I aim with my arm I still do a shitton of little wristflicks to 180 when I'm in my comfort zone. I also have the baaad habit to mass flick a 360 when I drop down on an item.
And I think it looks kinda like Av3k in the vid posted above.

<< Comment #83 @ 13:33 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (93.132.116.131) - Reply to #45

According to injx' excellent formula my guess was nearly correct:

I = 360 / (0.03 * 157,48 * 22) = 3,46 cm (per 360°)

<< Comment #86 @ 18:05 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #83

With such a high sens every millimeter matters :D

<< Comment #49 @ 17:41 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Lorfa '

Came out to ~22.6 cm for I.

J at ~0.24

<< Comment #52 @ 23:29 CDT, 25 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

vedic

1 xbox 360

<< Comment #82 @ 10:05 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Heartlesss - Reply to #52

<< Comment #73 @ 14:40 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

funnyb

13cm/360

<< Comment #74 @ 20:18 CDT, 26 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Erk

0cm if you pivot around.

<< Comment #77 @ 07:18 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (209.159.152.194)

I lol'ed

<< Comment #78 @ 07:27 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

vicek

around 45

<< Comment #79 @ 08:49 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

funnyb - Reply to #78

wat :<

<< Comment #85 @ 14:32 CDT, 27 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

vicek - Reply to #79

true story!

<< Comment #87 @ 06:48 CDT, 29 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Terifire

70cm/360

pain in the ass when playing cpm, so 35cm/360 + 0.1 accel for cpm :P

<< Comment #90 @ 16:35 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

AL|EN '

How about 90 cm's to make a 360° turn ?

Edited by AL|EN at 16:35 CDT, 31 May 2010

<< Comment #98 @ 09:29 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

viaIImaximus - Reply to #90

how about not being polish?

<< Comment #92 @ 18:39 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

calleking

1 cm.

<< Comment #93 @ 18:40 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

calleking

Actually, go with your penis length: 3 cm.

<< Comment #99 @ 09:30 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

viaIImaximus - Reply to #93

is that your pussy length?

<< Comment #95 @ 20:10 CDT, 31 May 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

OSEF

Strenx playing here few sec :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aak8md6Aw8g#t=1m13

<< Comment #96 @ 09:16 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

crea* ' - Reply to #95

Another (older) one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SwltKMkCH4&feature=related

<< Comment #102 @ 12:26 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

OSEF - Reply to #96

I know this one.

;-)

<< Comment #97 @ 09:20 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

faerie_ - Reply to #95

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWqKHWhHMQ

<< Comment #101 @ 12:25 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

OSEF - Reply to #97

Great video, merci.

<< Comment #100 @ 09:34 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

[mash]

I don't turn around.

<< Comment #103 @ 16:10 CDT, 1 June 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

TronicGgG '

53.33

Edited by TronicGgG at 16:11 CDT, 1 June 2010

<< Comment #108 @ 12:20 CDT, 20 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

daviezz

1.2 ingame no accel, 400 dpi (intelli 3.0) 2/11 windows and fuck knows how much to turn, but alot

<< Comment #116 @ 00:22 CDT, 29 July 2010 >>

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gauss - Reply to #108

That's insane. I thought my sens was pretty low.

<< Comment #109 @ 13:53 CDT, 20 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

Anonymous (92.153.48.117)

you have m_yaw 22222 or something? :o

<< Comment #110 @ 00:03 CDT, 21 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

KittenIgnition

6cm/360
m_yaw 0.022
m_pitch 0.030
850dpi
no accel

<< Comment #111 @ 02:16 CDT, 21 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

doj

19.3cm/360
sens 1.2
1800dpi

<< Comment #112 @ 03:06 CDT, 21 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

amOKchen

// Mouse
//____________________________________________________________

seta sensitivity "4"
seta m_filter "1"
seta m_yaw "0.022"
seta m_pitch "0.024"
seta cl_mouseAccel "0.7"
seta cl_mouseAccelStyle "0"
seta cl_mouseAccelOffset "5"
seta in_mouse "1"

around 20cm to make a 360 in slowmoving
around 5cm flickturn to make a 180

ms 3.0

Edited by amOKchen at 03:13 CDT, 21 July 2010

<< Comment #115 @ 19:16 CDT, 28 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

usurp

32.4 cm/360

<< Comment #114 @ 19:16 CDT, 28 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

usurp

32.4 cm/360

<< Comment #117 @ 01:52 CDT, 29 July 2010 >>

(Link, Reply)

study

21cm/360

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