:]

its nice to see a TDM cup with prizemoney..
.. but it's a shame that there are max. 3 playable tdm maps in ql

nice, shame that id doesnt care about tdm

^ This.

TDM must die :]

nice!:D

I miss TDM. But yes, in ql it's not that great of a experience currently :(

OK!

Now ID please, do something...

pro tdm rules are terrible.
maps are terrible.
tdm in general is amazing.
ditto to what purri said.

give us more ctf damnit.

What did purri sad?

is he sad? why? :'(((

Ähh said då;)

go iM!

awesome, tdm ftw

CTF > tdm

CTF > tdm

Do these people who make these decisions even talk to the community? I bet if there was a poll from the active community which they'd prefer, it would be a landslide for CTF.

Why would you not choose CTF? More maps, more current teams, more active players, world wide

Only reason CTF is bigger than TDM in EU at least is because id has pretty much fucked TDM as a mode and community in the ass. CTF might be the bigger thing in USA, but in EU quake has always been about TDM.

Agreed, I dont think CTF was a big thing in EU at all, now just the recent couple months it has been active in EU

Don't get me wrong. I love TDM. I'd rather play TDM. I'm talking about for the GOOD of QuakeLIVE as a community, i feel it would make more sense to have a standard for leagues

Well, back when quake actually had a scene where you didnt have to look all across europe to get a game going TDM was the big mode. I dont have any numbers or whatnot, but it feels like quakes decline is directly related to 1on1s growth. No 1on1 competition is ever gonna compare to the first Q3 EC imo, q2 vs qw with all the great teams. Except 9 ofc, pussies ;). Come to think about it, quake probably died the day MM lost to AM ;)

Heh AM brings back some memories, like back when the most famous Voo was someone entirely different :P

Idd, original Voo in q2 TDM rail rape <3

blame the q3 fucking idiots who whined about respawn times and got this shitty "pro" settings installed on half the servers. if the next cb tdm season goes pro settings then itll be my last, and it'll be the same for a load of other players coming from games other than q3 (we played cb finals of previous cup last night vs some ut'ers who wanted non-pro for instance)

idiots stuck in their '99 mentality are just trying to recreate q3 except in a browser until it ends up with a q3 size community & closes. and sadly id soft are accepting their demands and in the process splitting in half a community.

the biggest advantage i saw of QL being in a browser wasnt accessibility (you still have to dl shit loads) but consistency in version control. in q3 id join 1 server fine; another would need a newer version of cpm; on another it would say i needed hub even though i already had it. now theyre fragmenting it on their own accord and its fucking shit up.

fuck you slow weapon respawn and fuck you 20 minute tdm; fast and furious fun pls.

for serious business fuck off to 99

fuck off to your ut already

for serious business fuck off to 99

Pun irony alert

Agreed. 15 mins + 15 sec weapon respawn was just fine (excelent for public servers). 10 slots for player was just fine also.

OSP hasn't had an update in like 6 years or so, CPMA has always one valid version everyone is using and updating to quickly, while you as a client could even play on outdated servers that haven't updated yet, too. So either you are trying really hard to not get your quake installed properly, or you try to connect to servers that haven't been updated since 2003/admin is a retard, or you try do mess with really old versions of q3 for whatever reason in which case one would expect you to have enough of a clue to actually get it sorted out yourself.

I don't think the ql pubtdm settings are suited for competitive play as there's just way too many weapons around I think. If you got fragged, you should have a penalty and not get stacked within seconds again. If your team is too shit/stupid to share weapons with you, well then you're shit at TEAM deathmatch and deserve to get owned.
Fine if you want to fuck around ffa style on pubs, it's actually fun at times and useful to practise aim with a particular weapon because you'll simply have it for 20 mins straight. But if you want to play it a bit more competitively (read: ESL Major Series), you need to modify pubtdm settings towards protdm. Oh and if you think Q3 settings are too slow and don't allow for fast action, then maybe go look up some TDM demos by fox or the likes and then think about who sucks, you or the settings. No hard feelings mate, just get some clue first before you talk shit about q3. :>

Same mentality as always.

A league thinks that by putting in a mod that isnt so popular now, they are diversifying their efforts. In reality they are simply weakening the community around ctf and also lowering the chances of ANY team quake game being used in major tournaments.

After this tdm "cup" is over and the interest around it that's generated is tiny, it will be the classic "well no one wants to watch Quake team games" that we hear when in reality, its the event organizers fault for splitting up the interested team players into two different mods when one of them is flourishing and the other is dead.

When you continue to split up the players, how do you ever expect their to be a following for the game, let alone the tournaments that your league runs for it?

TDM isnt dead in EU, and this tourney is for EU teams? Kuh3 cup was running over the summer, Clanbase tdm is starting soon. Just because CTF has more players than TDM in the US doesnt mean we cant have EU tdm cups

Simply put, for any of the existing league or tournament to put QL TDM/CTF as one of their tournaments they need to see a preexisiting following as well as a game type with mass appeal that is easy too follow and exciting. I enjoy playing TDM even more then CTF but for a spectator there is simply no comparison. TDM for a spectator is just watching people frag eachother, the teamwork element/spawn raping is completely lost even to someone who semi knows Quake.
CTF is fast, easy to watch and comprehend, exciting, and already has a following behind it as well. ID the makers of the game have supported the gametype for 2 years in a row at their event "Quakecon" so they clearly feel the same way about it.
Its just a shame that as always the Esports organizers have no intentions of consolidating their efforts in any way, shape or form to drive the sport.

More teams are playing TDM in the ESL than CTF.

CTF isn't even easy or interesting to watch when you see it from a stream or non-multi POV GTV since all you see is people picking flags/powerups up and dieing instantly until the defender picks one up from then on you just see the guy sitting in base constantly getting a few easy frags while the real action takes place.

I haven't even begun to address cross steals and the how they are terrible to watch from a spectators view. Sure they are exciting but you pretty much miss everything.

In TDM the majority of the time the POV is interesting and it follows the action pretty well.

Idd, I tried watching the CTF stream on qcon and imo it sucked, I guess that follow killer or whatever it was wasnt really ideal. Still, with spectating as it is right now, through eyes only, team games cant really reach their potential as entertainment imo. And Id say TDM is the better choice since a well executed quad run will give the viewers 30 sec ownage and probably some fragging to go with it afterwards.

Anyway, it comes down to preference I guess, but the last good ctf game was q2 ;)

I guess theres no news about new TDM maps? id sure made me look stupid for getting my hopes up ;)

Spot on

Clamp: my point exactly.

It isn't about what has more players. It's about defining a standard.

The issue is, your dividing up your game by not defining a standard. Why was Counter-strike so ridiculously popular?
ONE MOD. Objective based. (a la CTF). Easy to follow. (Either you have the flag or you dont), fantastic for specs and fun to play...

Who defines the standard?

The leagues? That sure worked in the past with Quake 4 and Painkiller didn't it...

The standard is defined by the players and more teams are playing TDM in the ESL than CTF (There's also kuh3liga and CB).

It's no surprise that the Americans find CTF more interesting than TDM since the quality of TDM was dire in America and died about a decade ago.

I won't argue american TDM fell short compared to european TDM. That is really beside the point. Perhaps, euro TDM is more popular than CTF, so my initial statement about a landslide is probably incorrect, but I'd still be interested to see the poll results.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1750571

guess i was right, so far.

A lot of those 2vs2 votes (probably a considerable majority) I expect would vote for TDM if it wasn't an option.

You've also got to realise that ESR is full of people who don't play QL at all or won't even participate in the ESL (Read Americans, I notice you've voted for example) as if they should have any say in the matter (Especially Americans who don't play TDM).

So we arent allowed to have TDM cups because you want to force everyone to play CTF simply because its easier to understand for noobs?

Think outside the box. The more sponsors and teams that are interested in this game, the bigger it gets and longer it lasts and the more money we can possibly all make while having fun.

Im not interested in making cash by playing Quake and I find CTF less fun than TDM.

You might not be, the top teams playing the game are, and without all those teams, you don't have any mod to play

Let me rephrase, money isnt the driving factor why I play Quake, and neither is it for anyone that I play with. Also I play/know a lot of guys in sponsored multigaming clans and they are driven to be the best just because playing is fun and being the best is great, they arent motivated because they get free headsets or mousepads or some beer money, those are just extra fun stuff to brag with :D

You're missing the point. The more invested into a cup a league and its sponsors are, the more people will play it.

Build it and they will come. Don't build it, and you're fapping yourself, GL HF.

What?

Surely the years of the exact opposite being true should be proof that money doesn't create anything.

People play CS/CoD4/TF2/SC/WC3 because they have fun playing not because there's money to be had and top teams.

SC/WC3= You joking? The highest paid gamers in the world are SC/WC3 players.
CS = Major FPS tournament game for the last 7-8 years

CoD4/TF2.. ok? who cares?

They all already had lots of people playing.

The players came before the money...

As opposed to Quake which had no players but has had plenty of money pumped into it and yet has failed to grow at all but instead simply declined.

You have a point there which a lot of organizers seem to repeatedly miss which is: Quake hasn't been a grass roots game since '99. The first and second Quakes were grass roots games cos they were pretty much all people knew about and had organized aspects to in terms of online FPS games. It's not like noobs said 'oh I think I'll start to play this incredibly hard FPS game with a steep learning curve where I'll get smashed nonstop and probably have no chance since I have a 56k modem anyway'. That was all there was and there was a high novelty factor.

Since '99 there have been so many more games released that realistically Quake is only for hardcore players for the most part, especially competitively. Games like CS would still be played by hundreds of thousands whether a single cent had gone into the competitive side. That means they are always going to be winners in terms of spectators since you're designing the competition around an existing fanbase, not trying to create one out of thin air because you think the game mode is cool or could be easily understood.

That's why I actually think it's kind of retarded everyone keeps talking about 'the next DM game' or trying to change features which fuck up play but make it slightly better for a spectator to watch. Quake would probably be better served by catering to the highest skilled players as much as possible so it becomes something which isn't the most popular spectator esport, which it could never be anyway, but something where the skill on display is so exciting that even CS noobs etc will watch if its easily available. Think of something more akin to the X-games.

End of massively digressive rant.

Well said and I completely agree.

Iniiiiii is also missing the fact the game itself, realistically, was 10 years old. Which, in itself, is a reason for decline. QuakeLIVE has proven it can spark a new interest in that game that declined which is why we are on these forums in the first place.

Every UT version has declined as well, I didn't miss that point at all.

Uh, UT community size never compared to Quake or CS.... not to mention UT is old as fuck too. 2k4 is 5 years old, duh?

UT, UT2k3, UT2k4, UT3
PK
Q, Q2, Q3, Q4, QL

None of them have a large community, and the amount of people playing DM games has gone from 100% something tiny.

Pretty much the only exception is Halo.

That isn't anyone's fault except the people who used to play them. A large part of the reason people don't play DM games anymore is because of the popularity of console systems like xbox 360, ps3 and wii... also WoW.

I wasn't blaming anyone, it's a quite simple fact that money quite clearly doesn't revive DM games and neither does forcing things upon the community.

The eSports scene couldn't force PK or Q4 on the people playing for all the money in the world so how does it expect to force CTF on them?

If you want to simply argue that CTF is more fun or has more players that's fine, but there's not much difference between them if you ask and the ESL had more teams in the TDM cup than the CTF.

let me highlight the keyword in your own post for you:

"popularity"

lol what? ut2k4 community raped quake until ut3 came out and still probably has the largest CA community

what the fuck are you talking about? the pros mean FUCK ALL in quakelive. who does the game depend on? everybody but the pros. advertisers dont care that chance is playing and writing biblical drivel on playing they care about numbers of site hits and potential audience

all the pros have done is potentially fuck up playing in competitions for the rest of us who dont want to wait 45 seconds for a weapon getting raped in between because we dont care enough to catch up to some fag whos been playing with the same settings for 10 years.

so your argument, Dird, is that you suck ? Great argument

Haha, Exactly.

better to suck than to be a racist~

yes like the majority of the players and if the majority arent enjoying the game then we suck. we cant all hit 40% accuracy while rejecting cougars you know;)

Then the Series doesn't apply to you and neither does their decision to support one mode over another. If they were to pick up CTF it would not hinder your enjoyment of the game.

You can always have tournaments especially if you're not playing for cash:
tourney.cc - Will make you your website, signups and groups / brackets
ESReality for news
Etc.

CTF is a mode that should be supported more in eSports in my opinion - it is more spectator friendly and as stated by destrukt, has a very clear objective. Streaming it effectively is easier as in a way, there is less for the observer / broadcaster / shoutcaster to focus on at any given time.

There's far more going on in a CTF match that could be focussed on at any given time than a TDM match. Making it much less friendly for streaming and commentating on and difficult to watch and follow without a Multi-POV GTV.

Why? Because you have the Offence setting up and executing attacks, both offences. You have the Defence setting up and countering the attacks, both defences. You have powerups, armour, mega, flag runs, and cross steals.

All of this is going on at the same time and is impossible to follow effectively with a single POV stream let alone multi-POV (Good luck getting a watchable 8 POV system without some kind of overlay system where you then miss all the fragging).

TDM also has a very clear objective, get more frags.

More TDM teams in ESL than the CTF league...

The choice of TDM was very last minute and rushed for some reason I can't tell. But it's still possible to change that decision, I'm already preparing a poll on ESR to collect some opinions.

I'm wondering why there are like 3 cups for soccer games (FIFA, PES) and no duel cup for QL?

it says in the post

So since they are holding Major $$ tournaments for a duel game on LAN, they won't have a league online? Isn't that counter productive?

http://www.esl-world.net/masters/ql_eu_s4/
pretty sure it is online.

Well, Qualifiers FOR the lan event. Different from an actual online league, but I can see why this would be exclusive

Duel is part of IEM? It's not present at IEM Chengdu and besides, it's offline and the events are few and far in between so I don't see why an online duel cup wouldn't work.

IEM is mostly online

is a premium account needed for this??!for every player?

no

\o/ <3

Nice, hopefully this will smack ID a bit to make them interested in creating new maps!

ql = q4 , gg after 1 year :(

nice

If quake wants to expand they need not to stick with TDM and its 2 playable maps.. but move to CTF which was at quakecon.. or better.. offer both!

CTF is the better alternative for spectators and easier for noobs to learn and understand.. watching defrag style caps is great aswell as not to forget it has like 5 playable maps.. just right for events with bo3 and bo5.

1. ctf2
2. ctf3 (although the new additions and it's place in ctf can be 3. argued)
4. ctf7
5. ctf8
6. ctf10

bloodlust isn't too bad either i suppose..

Though if i'm honest, i'm just happy QL 4v4 in any shape or form is starting to get some backing, 1v1 isn't for everyone.. so thanks ESL.

So basically you're saying you gave up on all the other modes to take up Mid on CTF because you're fucking stupid and CTF is a simple mode to play?

I just enjoy playing CTF more at the moment because there is more variety on offer.. so yes i suppose my current oppinion is rather bias due to that fact, although my points were quite valid.

If we get some q3 ported TDM maps, or some fluke awesome new maps.. as was with that new duel map and ironworks/siberia in ctf.. then my oppinion might change. ^^

**edit** I'll stll play in this TDM cup though

Only accesible map is ctf7, the rest is damn boring, from a spectator pov a game which ends 1:0 / 1:2 / 2:0 or 2:3 after 10 minutes of overtime is BORING. We need some action.

I, as a spectator, enjoy both high-scoring and low-scoring matches, provided that they are intense enough. For example, I really enjoyed watching fnatic vs eg, and I think they were some of the best CTF games I've ever seen, even though there weren't many caps. And I remember watching some high-scoring games on QL.tv that were still boring just because one team was clearly much better than another, and there weren't any really interesting confrontations.

qlive ctf is boring to play and spectate.
bring back cpm ctf.

so this is good news. :>

hahaha, alright fine a QL TDM cup with some prize money. I would agree that a CTF cup would be more logical based on what was mentioned by destrukt and clamp_ok, because Quake Live needs some attention to be good in the bigger picture.

But then the comedians on this website, which is no surprise with their: ESL QL TDM has more teams playing than ESL QL CTF. lmfao, the quality of teams in the European TDM scene is so depleted. If this cup goes live, it's pretty obvious what the top3 will be just due to allstars teaming up with each other and leaving other teams crippled, because they simply have no 'star' players to compete with other teams. This was the case when Q3TDM shined, but it's far from that now.

Want a realistic prediction? Considering they WILL sign up:

1. fnatic
2. LLL
3. a random pickup team of 'famous' players (e.g. noctis, zyv, purri, strenx etc.)

You might as well play the final right away for the prize money, because that's pretty much going to be the only interesting game in that entire cup.

This cup will not fucking help TDM grow by one bit. It will only bring some temporary teams together that are hungry enough to play for that 125 euro a player, but it's pretty obvious who will walk away with it. It doesn't matter what was good or what was nice 10 years ago. Today counts and looking at active leagues, cups and potential there are more good CTF teams around at the moment and that will give a better cup overall.

If you want an example, just look at the BiBs tournament. I was pretty confident in other leagues and cups that us (YYT) and LLL will be in the finals in all of them, but now there are more contenders for the top 3 in CTF.

Let's make an easy comparison of TDM and CTF teams that are currently active and alive, so not the ones that died during the featured CB TDM cup that basically died as well.

TDM:
fnatic (if they play)
excello (sure to play?)
LLL (sure to play?)
nfinity (sure to play?)
k1ck (if they play)
YYT (if we play)

CTF:
LLL (sure to play)
YYT (sure to play)
k1ck (sure to play)
vG (sure to play)
Prime (sure to play)
DP (sure to play)
ALAN (if they play)

If anything, it's just that little bit of money would support some teams signing up, but it simply won't be because there are so many awesome teams in TDM that it would be a success.

Anyway regardless of mode discussion, I like that Quake Live gets some prize money in cups and leagues, it will trigger interest. Now if they only put in their efforts in getting new teams going and for me that would be supporting CTF at this very moment, instead of TDM, just looking at 'facts'.

My 2 cents, although I will pretty much be trolled by nostalgic players that still think TDM is like back in da day lolol.

Like you said, "facts" which you can't back up with anything.

like everything you say as well. so what exactly is your point? EXACTLY. we're on same grounds mate, unlucky.

Bld just boxed you iniiiiii. How are you going to get out of that box?

Except he didn't at all.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7747/boxedbrit.jpg

boxed a brit :(

Except there are more teams in the TDM cup than the CTF. Which is basically the only thing I've said.

Yeah because quantity > quality right? We're playing in the ESL TDM Summercup and there was 1 game where the score was 571 - -23 after 2 maps played.

What BlaD3 means is that there is more potential within the European community with regards to CTF rather than TDM. In the ClanBase TDM cup (featured one) it was very obvious who was going to make it to top 3. Sure there are a bunch of good teams, but there are only a small amount of excellent teams that just dominate the rest. Quite a few TDM teams have started playing CTF and are learning the ropes of it. A high-profile CTF tourney might be just the thing more of these teams need to start playing CTF.

I'm not trying to argue which mode is better or more skillfull at this time or which mod is easier for spectators to follow. I'm just saying CTF in the current European scene has much more clans actually able to compete for top spot than just a handfull of "super stars".

I know exactly what he means and I don't really give a shit.

No matter what you guys all want to believe making everything CTF isn't going to start some CTF revolution.

We're not trying to have a CTF revolution. I'd be perfectly happy if this cup would be TDM and like 10 or 15 excellent clans would all have a reasonable chance at a top 3 spot. Anything that helps Quake LIVE move forward, I don't demand it to be the mod I'm playing, there's plenty of leagues and cups for that.

The fact is that it will just be "bad publicity" like Clamp_OK said. It's like announcing a Q4 TDM or CTF Eurocup now, while there are perhaps 3 clans able (worthy if you will) to play in it. I'm guessing ESL wants to attract something similar as the Razer Tournament which was filled with excellent players, some better than others, but all of high calibre. If the cup has 20 clans of which perhaps 5 are sure of a spot in the playoffs, 80% of the games will be complete blow-outs and extremely boring to watch or be interested in.

Come on, there arent more than 5-6 ctf teams that have a chance at a top3 spot, too.

At the moment perhaps, yes. But CTF can be learned in a reasonable short time.

TDM and duelers have better aim than CTF players in general. Getting good aim is something that you learn over the years and will try to keep improving. With regards to TDM aim is highly decisive factor in your team's skill and with high aim you can build up good team work. You can time every item on a map and try to control it perfectly, but if you get outaimed every time you won't get far. CTF on the other hand doesn't have it's emphasis on aim for the major part. Sure it helps to have good aim to win combat situations, but CTF is won by scoring caps, not frags. The CTF mechanics and teamplay can be learned (learned not perfected) in a relative short amount of time as opposed to getting great aim in TDM.

My point is, TDM players have all the tools they need to jump into CTF if they feel like it or are encouraged to do by a big tournament (hint hint) while in general pure CTF teams will have a harder time jumping into TDM.

I don't agree.
Aim might be a little more important in TDM than it is in ctf, but the difference is minor.
When you control the items in TDM you can still win vs better aimers, because you have more armor or better weapons or quad damage.
A team of new players will equally lose in both modes vs experienced players. it only might look like a closer match in CTF cause the scores are so low in general.

Maybe people don't want to switch from TDM to CTF only to become first in first div?
The thing that counts is the fact that more teams wanna play TDM. Yours and bldr's argument is only about premierhip teams and I think that's where the flaw is in your plan:

"Yeah because quantity > quality right?" -- Actually, yes! Because we're talking about what attracts people and what should be supported with sponsored money to, hopefully, attract even more people! So it seems, more people are attracted by TDM atm, no matter if they are doing fine or not. exe is an amazing team imo because they stay focused even if they get their asses kicked by you guys! And those guys I guess would love to watch the finals in the ESL summer cup. I would, and I am pretty sure we won't last long in the playoffs, scoring second to nfi in group stage.

What about 2o2 EC when fox and tox owned everyone? It was fun to watch and there were a lot of people attending, knowing they would not win. In the current TDM cups, we have the same thing. So what? People like it! I like it! And I know my team won't win those cups.

Please, start looking at the lower divs as well and respect people's choices! They wanna play TDM, obviously, no matter if they could get better results in CTF.

Money cannot make an unpopular mod become popular! People can! So please, you guys from YYT, nfi, excello and whatnot, respect lower div ppl! They love playing against you, losing against you and watching your finals! And upload more demos as to help the community grow and learn from the big boys!!!

fuck tdm, it's a random ffa and you watch a player with the machine gun for 20 minutes

CTF isn't as different as you guys want to believe frankly.

idd m8

how are q4'ers rather likely "SURE TO PLAY" in tdm than a vq3tdm clan? :p

I think a team of noctis, zyv. link1n, strenx would place 1st easy

I'd bet on that. :D

tdm ftw

hmm, mixed feelings about this one tbh: ctf scene is way more active, but it might help tdm to grow. + tdm > ctf
WAKE UP CALL ID!!!

looking at the next cb season: both modes have 64 teams signed up, so you I'd say the activity is roughly the same in both modes

2v2 tdm would beat both, 4v4 tdm and ctf.

GO 2v2!!!!

Q3/QL is much more suited to 2vs2 anyway and the 2vs2 EC was great to watch.

also, 2v2 can get a ton more signups than 4v4 or ctf ever could \:D/

Only bad thing is no dm14 or BS :(

but TWO VERSUS TWO!!!!

your brother would have a much easier time co-ordinating and calculating item times in 2v2 i agree

2v2 ctf, lets compromise

oh god 2v2 in ql, I'll fall asleep before I see the end of that one.
I actually prefer CTF spectator wise before tdm but well as long as its ql and prizemoney I dont care. :p

2v2 would be great imo, what maplist would you propose? DM6 ZTN T6 T7 CA2 would be my pick

DM7 ?

ehmm no, let's just delete that map for good pls

:p

agreed

dm20 could actually work well in 2v2

Made a poll, lets see where it could go.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1750571

great, so people who wont even play in any of those cups can vote...

But maybe they'll watch...?

TDM is a good choice. CTF is very hard to learn with all the different jumps and so on. And in my oppinion a CTF match can get really boring very fast. I enjoyed watching the QuakeCon matches, but only, cause i didnt want to miss any news. the only interesting CTF match at quakecon was EG vs. fnatic...rest was boring.

CTF FTW!!!!

great news, bad part is that QLTDM sucks compared to q3tdm with real maps, and I don't get the same "feeling" like in osp/vq3tdm when you could play for hours and still exited.

i think the mappool is the real problem, not the mode choice (2v2/tdm/ctf).
atm there isn't a good competitive mappool for all the above modes.
i guess tdm with only dm6 dm7 dm14 is really boring to watch/play, so i rather let the chances to 2v2 or ctf

idd

The biggest problem with QL atm is STILL the lack of maps. People play 2/3/4 maps and the rest is just pure crap. We need more of the old q3 maps and some new and original maps..

I really wonder if ID even notices the "begging" from the community, its been going on since the closed beta, and all we got was a decent CTF map and thats about it.

And netcode:P

make a ca tournament.
lots of maps, whine, abuse, spam, rape, ragequit and all the chicks you want.

this, the chicks

CTF > TDM

I'll call it early and say it's Carmacs fault.

Sorry Carmac ;)

$500 split 4 ways? Even if you're the best in the world, you can't come close to paying the bills. This esports thing is for children. Maybe someday it will mature.

My vote goes to 2v2! and maybe setting the timelimit to 15min?. Would be nice to see old pro-t7 / ospdm11,dm6,ztn and a new fresh map.
IMO that would be entertaining!

omg Labur the old N*/Headz star!!!

TDM is just fine. I have seen enough CTF tourneys lately.

Q2 tdm FTW!!!

tdm > ctf

only pros in ctf is worth to watch

TDM rocks... Too bad there's only 10 year old maps:/

well...i think that the real problem is the lack of maps for EVERY mode as already said .
i guess noone can say that c10 and c3 are good maps :D
Duel mappool is about the same maps since 10 y with only t7 added and in the qcon one adding ca2 that s just unplayable.
Tdm has got 3 maps (or maybe 4 with dm20 that without random pu spawn is almost playable) that are played since 99.
2on2 could be ok in future..not now since only lo3 , esl, cb admins can spawn private servers and is almost impossible to play 2on2 on publics .
CMON ID!

you just ask an esl admin and they spawn a server for you..

or just use the esl gather system that automaticly spawns servers

and ctf10 is not 10 years old ? rofl plz :)

OMFG who said it isnt.!??!?! learn reading

nice edit lol

:O

tdm, great \o/

Playing TDM with primeval maps YEAH!

No 2v2.

The current signups for Clanbase Opencup (closing tomorrow):

- Clan Arena: 53
- Capture The Flag: 67
- Team Death Match: 67

The ESL Summer League 2009 Signups:

- Capture The Flag: 32
- Team Death Match: 40

CTF has had a major LAN.
CTF has 1 standard rule set.
CTF has brand new maps and improved older maps.
CTF has had video stream coverage from a number of leagues.

YET CTF still has equal to, or less signups then TDM...

So even with direct support from id, CTF still does not seem as popular in leagues as the ignored and often ruined TDM.

To suggest CTF is a more simple and viewable mode of play to TDM is almost comical.

TDM is extremely simple to understand and every point of view is a worthwhile viewpoint.

CTF is boring other then if you follow the attacker, but that generally only happens when they pickup the flag and 90% of the time die right away. Most of the frags themselves don't mean anything and you can never get a good view of how a team is positioned.

Sol4r and bld are both in YYT, the top CTF team in Europe. Of course their opinion is that CTF should be picked, they are almost guaranteed to reach top 3 alongside LLL and perhaps fnatic. It is not the case that it is less predictable at the top of CTF, if anything it is more.

TDM should be picked above CTF (at this point in time). CTF has had its support with Quakecon and the new maps so why not give TDM some limelight and get id to support its mode of play for a while. If CTF is so great anyway it is not like the scene will suddenly die because the 3 teams that already dominate it wont get a payday. CTF can have the next cup after TDM has been improved and added to.

Agreed 100%

Btw, it seems like there are like 3-5 clans worldwide who have a pipedream of actually getting paid enough to live off of Quake (or atleast make a considerable amount of money) and completely ignoring everyone else, its very obvious in this thread. There are loads of clans who have no chance of winning but still enjoy the competition and play on a quite high level and want to improve, but these pros just want to ignore everyone else and have their circlejerk fest with 3 clans. Seems to me a lot of the people at the top have forgotten about playing for fun and enjoyment

Sol4r and bld are both in YYT, the top CTF team in Europe. Of course their opinion is that CTF should be picked, they are almost guaranteed to reach top 3 alongside LLL and perhaps fnatic. It is not the case that it is less predictable at the top of CTF, if anything it is more.

hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha

and TDM isn't? lmfao it's fucking sure who will win it, so your argument shouldn't be used against CTF as mode. Both modes have this problem. As I said in my post, there are simply more CTF teams that have a chance on taking top 3 than there are TDM. If anything, the TDM top 3 is pretty much determined already even in the correct order.

I would actually prefer a 2v2 tournament, instead of TDM, just because it will atleast split up the 'sure to win' TDM teams into multiple teams that would give more competition.

It's so flawed saying CTF is boring and TDM isn't. It's obvious this is an endless discussion, because the TDM fanboys are never going to back down in liking CTF and the other way around. I liked TDM, when there actually was competition and the amount of teams that could sustain this competition.

frs you might think that it's fine to have totally weaker teams to get raped by the best teams and see those best teams in the playoff stages or something, but have you even considered the whole competition factor for the leagues and cups? Having 2-3 good teams and the rest complete blowouts will give less credibility to a league, because it simply gives the impression not many good teams sign up, while there are only 3 anyway. For that reason, 2v2 would be the better choice to at least have 8-10 teams competing for the top spot.

Anyone that says CTF is unwatchable and not fun for GTV/Stream is so ignorant and is obviously biased with his opinion towards CTF. I find TDM fucking boring to watch and have actually never finished watching a game till the end in most cases. Why? Because since 2004 it was always pretty obvious who was going to win, so I watched the first 10 minutes of a game to see if there might be a sudden 'surprise', but that never happened anyway.

Anyway currently most attractive for me:

1. 2v2
2. CTF
3. TDM
4. a big pile of burning wood, where we can put all the trolls and TDM fanboys on, that think bashing other modes based on nothing, but their personal preference is awesome.

Nope just the way CTF works is worse to spectate. I play all game modes I like them all but you miss so much when watching CTF. Although it is not as bad as CA that is pretty awful to spec.

Can you name the teams that are sure to win TDM please.

1. fnatic (link1n,stermy,spartie and deus)
2. LLL (vertex, forever, impulse and dem0n/draven)
3. [insert random name here] (zyv, noctis, x, x) -> purri/strenx/fox could possibly fit there.

Other teams simply don't have a chance, because TDM relies so much on individual aim/skill.

Examples on what teams just won't cut it compared to the above:
YYT, excello, nfinity, deathreign, versatile gaming.

Therefor 2v2 would be more interesting, so you split the people named above up and might add some more teams that can't field four.

You simply can't deny that good players will look up good players to form these teams, as is what happened at the end of Quake 3 and is currently the case in Quake Live, making it predictable who is going to win/top 3 every mode.

Awaiting the next: But who cares about if it's sure who will win, at least there are games! Yeah have fun with your 400 - 50 games, that's fucking exciting to watch, might as well announce the date of the final already so we actually have a night worth staying home to see it end in 2/3 maps.

I'd rather watch a 400-50 tdm game than a 1-0 ctf game

I agree on paper there looks to be more possibly close match-ups in 2v2, much like there is more possible players if you make it duel. I don't really see a drastic need however to reduce team sizes from 4 to 2 so quickly.

TDM teams can improve with practice fast and with an active cup teams are all out to practice. One of my teams issues is we can never get any practices so of course we wont catch up with these dead set winner teams. I do think it is possible within the length of a cup a team can improve enough to place higher then they would have at the start.

But as I already said TDM is in drastic need of support from id, something that it has already been stated it will get if its the ESL mode of choice. CTF has had plenty of input so lets leave that for a couple of cups. Duel is always pimped as the quake mode of choice so we can give that a rest. 2v2 would be fine sure but there is no real point playing that now when the game is at its peak of team players activity. The numbers of players willing to play 4v4 will only go down from this point just like Q3 so this is the time we need to get in the 4v4 cups.

TDM should be the choice. Also make CA 4v4 it becomes much better to spectate and makes it easier for teams that play all game modes.

"TDM teams can improve with practice fast and with an active cup teams are all out to practice. One of my teams issues is we can never get any practices so of course we wont catch up with these dead set winner teams. I do think it is possible within the length of a cup a team can improve enough to place higher then they would have at the start."

Yeah same. Annoyingly enough the lead that the top teams have on newer teams is the fact that 99,9% of their TDM practise came from Q3, not QL. The progress our team has done in just 2 weeks is really strong, it's not like we lack personal skill (me being the weakest by far), things like dynamic teamplay, communication and playing as a team when under pressure etc are what's lacking, and you will never get those if you dont get the chance to play 'serious' games.

I also played during the golden era of Q3TDM so it's not that bad for me but I'm the only one in my team, and there's like 3 guys in the finnish scene who played back in the day so without getting any practise now, no one will ever catch up.

I think a team consisting of fox, zyv, noctis, strenx/purri would place first in that list tbh :p

pff you're so wrong man. Tdm isn't predictable at all since '04. You clearly haven't been following the past Nations Cups.
CTF is just too hard to spec, with the constant pov switching (which you need to follow it properly) whereas tdm isn't, simple.

"frs you might think that it's fine to have totally weaker teams to get raped by the best teams and see those best teams in the playoff stages or something, but have you even considered the whole competition factor for the leagues and cups? Having 2-3 good teams and the rest complete blowouts will give less credibility to a league, because it simply gives the impression not many good teams sign up, while there are only 3 anyway. For that reason, 2v2 would be the better choice to at least have 8-10 teams competing for the top spot."

Apparently there will be some kind of a qualification process so the complete newb teams wont be in the league atleast. Your argument against TDM works equally as well for CTF so by that defintion neither of them are suitable to be played in a league like this.

2v2, meh, the biggest downside of 2v2 is the lack of ability to practise properly, except for the those select few top players or friends of (ESL/whoever) admins who can spawn private servers for you. Funnily enough those that get the best conditions to practise are also the players who need the least and still are the best bets for the top-5 if a 2v2 league took place. We tried playing some 2v2 with Emtsei and finding 4 specs for an hour or so is hard as fuck, and atleast every second game a newb joined and well, I guess you know the story. Also, its not like the top is completely unpredictable for a 2v2 tourney either...

2v2, would be more interessing with maps like

dm20
t6
t7
dm6
ztn

also im sure we will get alot of teams

Perhaps but better to support the larger team modes while the game is more active then drop down to 2v2 later on. OOOORRR have all of them.

well ctf and tdm dont have enough maps... while duel and 2on2 have... thats my point i like ctf and tdm both modes have like 3 proper maps...

Both gametypes are boring and predictable as a competitive spectacle. This tiny community doesn't have enough good players to field enough good teams in either.

The TDM is predictable and the CTF is predictable, the argument is that CTF without perfect cam-work is a diasaster to watch, you miss so much of what happens in the game. TDM is far easier to watch. Which is better to watch is down to opinion. I'm of the opinion that CTF is incredibly dull and defensive on any map other than Ironworks. Watching 20 minute stalemates on other maps as teams play ultra-cautiously to claim the pitiful sum of 500 euros doesn't appeal to me, I doubt I'm alone in this regard either. I do see how boring TDM could be also though, I wouldn't be expecting a brilliant tournament with close games all over in the slightest, neither gametype can provide that.

2v2 is no better from my point of view either, when 2v2 is close it can be interesting, however, if theres even the slightest skill gap the weaker team usually struggles to even get kills, nevermind keep the score reasonable. This will be especially emphasised in QL 2v2 with the nerfed guns.

All the wannabe pros (well, just bld, nvc and sol4r I guess) who are salivating over the thought of 500 euros whilst vehemently defending their gametype at the thought of more to come, really need a reality check. Team-based QL picking up interest from the general gaming population and garnering support for regular money (lol) events will never, ever happen, it will not matter which gametype you try and push. So just play what you like and enjoy the events on offer. It's so sad how without this paltry prize offering there'd be no discussion at all about what got picked, people would just get on with it.

That's why I am playing in the 5 to 6 other cups and leagues that offer no prize money at all while maintaining high activity, while already half the teams that formed in QL, died as soon as they were beaten or the chance of succeeding was little to none.

Thanks for a personal assault though, I will take it very seriously from a guy who has no background knowledge of me. If something is sad, it's stuff like that.

Personal assault, oh man, my heart bleeds for you, petal. Are you hypersensitive? Seriously though, that's pretty amusing.

hmm your UK-ish attitude really shines in that reply, keep it up. How can I require more replies from you, so I'll get my nostalgic feeling back which martel and sifer provided for me back in the day? :o

1v1

settled!

TDM

1. ch (if they play)
2. fnatic (if they play)
3. random team