roflcopter

whatever happened to online gaming?

Money got involved?

"Are you really that bothered if people cheat?"
yes
he wont go to prison coz netcoders wont want to get themselves in trouble
its not an evil if the ethical reasoning is valid. most gamers besides ppl using/selling cheats will see it as ethical. its like cops in america who use prostitutes to catch ppl who want to 'borrow' prossies for a few hours.
all hes done is released information. its not like hes planted a time bomb on the site (altho id say it was ethical too)

I disagree, hacking into a system is a crime, ignoring the reasons for doing it is morally wrong.

mo·ral·i·ty Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 4–6.
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character.


eth·i·cal Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[eth-i-kuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, esp. the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

Uhm, not everyone agrees with the laws interpretation of what is right and wrong, and anyone who does is, in my opinion "morally" bankrupt.

Why can't two wrongs make a right?

Lol, all fusen did was exploit a weakness in some PHP/SQL. (At least that's my opinion until I hear otherwise)
Thing's like this go on everyday, immoral perhaps but who cares?

He only did it because other people were being immoral in the first place and he tried to help the situation to help genuine people in and around the community he was involved in.

Are federal agents immoral for obtaining lists of paedophiles from child porn websites and charging them?
Am I immoral if I see some guy mugging an old lady and I break his nose to stop him?

If people were not immoral in the first place then other people would not need to be immoral to counter it.

So I say well done for Fusen for taking thing's into his own hands.
Net Coders won't do shit.
Theyre just a bunch of 20 something failed programmers who realised they can make a few dollars and sustain their lazy lifestyle.

And don't pay too much attention to the law, it's mostly an out of date bundle of contradictions designed by people who are not represntive of the modern world.
It's meanings and definitions can bea bought, twisted and manipulated depending on how much money you have to spend.

Lol, all fusen did was exploit a weakness in some PHP/SQL.

What is your source for this?

No source, it's just an educated guess that is v. likely to be correct.
I'll edit my post anyway as it's a bit presumptious.

netcoders said on their site that it was a VBB exploit

I stand corrected!
But it's basically the same principle. They really hate fusen on that forum, lot's of 20 something's talking like angry 12yr olds.

We're gonna get you etc etc. Hilarious.

They seem to want to make everyone in the Anti-cheat community pay for waht he did and plan to support leagues.
Something tells this won't be the first time that site goes down:)

he did it for the right reasons though ..

take for example police tactics of undercover sting operations .. you can't always be upfront with cheaters and criminals (yes I do tar them with the same brush ..)

*EDIT* also ...

surely it's a case of 'fighting fire with fire' - this website's purpose was hacking and they got owned by somene hacking them .. pure poetic justice if you ask me ...

I'm not really that bothered aslong as I beat them.
Although if they beat me I still ain't too bothered...much.

i will go back to q3 duel lolz ^_^

Cheating doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a lame way of having fun I agree, certainly at the expense of others but is this really the case? Unless they are directly spoiling the game with excessive accuracies that stand out a mile receiving some form of winnings from competition then what's the major problem everyone makes cheating out to be?

A lot of ego is involved as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to bet a good percentage of honest gamers have played a particular player or two who were cheating regardless of the outcome. Unaware of the situation you've not had a care in the world and the thought never comes to mind. It only becomes a problem when you catch a hint, hear something or are just looking for an excuse. Why worry or even care if they cheat, especially when the only outcome is your ego? Take the whole Walter situation. I'm not saying he cheats but for the sake of this argument say he does. There is no denying that the NA Q3 scene gets rallied up over the state of affairs but is it really worth it when you know you're the better player regardless? In the end maybe you'll get some solid proof, but what good is it? As far as I get tell he's already 'shamed'. I's a problem out of nothing.

The manner in which the cheaters have been discovered, cheaters or not it's wrong; satisfying but wrong. I find it an invasion of privacy if you can call it that. I wouldn't be complaining about or at Fusen really but more so with the netCoders admin team for allowing my personal information to be exploited in such a way. As for going to prison such a thought is downright stupid. At most a cheater should be named and shamed, removed and restricted access from current and future events, but no for an everlasting period.

If you're actually referring to the prison statement in regards to Fusen being punished for computer crimes I gravely can't see any legal action being taken at all. So far netCoders have come across as a bunch of children, I seriously doubt they would have any initiative to know where start with such a procedure. Even if they do manage to conjure something wouldn't it all just fall back on them taking into account the amount of license agreements broken, and of course if the tax rumour proves to be true?

This thing will blow over before you know it and the whole situation will be back to square one.

Something like that anyway! =]

Yeah probably, i'm just spouting possibilities. But yeah i agree from a moral pov it's wrong. I was using the prison thing with regard to Fusen, rather than those cheating. I also would be very pissed off about the release of my personal details, especially where any form of payment is involved.

The only sensitive data I see are the passwords [ok and h3's first name and a transaction id (which I guess isn't of any use for anyone?)]. I don't see any personal details, like names, addresses, etc. Or what do you consider personal data?

If he has a database dump then he has all the personal data of everyone who bought something? He has all the data the people at the coding practise have

stfu emokid

fuck you burigio boy

there are only

Stupid burgui!

three gods

In my eyes

Stop trolling for once ffs!

"Cheating doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a lame way of having fun I agree, certainly at the expense of others but is this really the case? Unless they are directly spoiling the game with excessive accuracies that stand out a mile receiving some form of winnings from competition then what's the major problem everyone makes cheating out to be?"

My point, exactly. :)

www.entropiauniverse.com <--- no cheating here

Are you getting paid?

are winning poker players getting paid?

does the pope shit in the woods?

Financially yes, in the game of life no.

most of them WSOP guys look like they are

Don't debate jamerio on poker. He's an idiot.

well comparing zamuzs pictures from a few years back with the recent ones, i have to say i know where the generalization came from

Well jamerio is fat and doesn't play poker!

xD

Yes but I can diet and you'll always be an inbred trapped on an iceberg with only a netconnection to read about the world you'll never quite be a part of.

Says the guy living in a shithole called Swansea. Now go mine some noodles for me.

http://www.ismennt.is/not/jonasg/0landid/jg05...-26355.jpg

So which fishing hut is yours. Lol.

Ouch that almost hurt. Wait a minute you still live in a shithole!

that looks pretty nice actually ;-\

haha yeah. I don't get what he's trying to say with that point :(

Loads of green/open space :o

They're not a registered company?

Please don't try to lecture anyone in morality; yes, in the eys of the law what Fusen did was quite wrong, but the eys of the law are not intended for moral judgement--something the myopic sun readership of this country should learn.

The law is designed to protect society, not protect your womanly sensibilites from being morally offended. It applies in this way: we should be protected from Fusen's actions because, in effect, he could steal our identity or funds; but from that, we do not have to judge him morally corrupt. Those who instantly judge anyone who operates even remotely outside of the law as morally questionable are but the scurge of society: they are the linch mobs of our "modern" world.

Whatever, you sound like the average mirror reading spouting without thought or reason. The fact that you can't detach yourself from a situation without brining your emotive response into it just proves your limited thought process, go and troll on someone else's journal.

Why don't provide an actual reason for Fusen's actions being wrong, other than hiding behind the law?

Funny how all these "admins" support hacks first that cb now levi. Yeah ruin normal players games for e-fame ya great. How would you feel if someone killed your family? Would you think they deserved to die? Hacking at games is killing my internet familes and I want those bastards to die.

2 wrongs dont make a right but I choose the lesser evil of the two.


ZERO TOLERANCE FOR HACKERS.

240 != 215

215 is the uk version of punee

will you learn how to read ppls names! ffs Levi aka Levitation is a clan NOT the name .... i think i have been on this site posting long enough for ppl to actually know this by now

heh. Not my fault. use a real name then people wouldn't get confused.

I didn't say i supported hacking i'm talking from a philosophical perspective on morality. How far does one do wrong to catch another doing wrong? Where is the line? obviously the internet is the wrong place to do it.

not really because, in fact, there are hundreds of people cheating in games. Where as this one guy just shedded light on how far people are willing to go to have "fun".

well, nothing is really ever your fault is it?

maybe you should also change your name to ESR|Nicky on esr :)

:/ dont wanna

Can I?

lol NO :P

ZERO TOLERANCE FOR HACKERS.

Aren't you the guy who played in the same clan as Napalm3D?

it's ok to cheat when you are on my team. You aren't ruining my fun then.


But to really respond to that. I didn't know he cheated then. That's why he was booted.

> Are you really that bothered if people cheat? Personally i'm not.
what games are you playing and referring to? if your gf/wife cheats on you you'd be bothered immediately :P

Any games, i don't consider relationships in the same arena as this discussion.

i bet they have broken just as many laws if not more ... games licence agreements say you cant do things like this... i also bet they havent being paying the tax man his cut either

Indeed. CoD2 has an eula, what netcoders were selling violated that. Im not sure if ET as a free game has a similar thing, but certainly Quake3/4 UT etc do.

The whole thing is pretty pathetic though.

some kinda kids gone wild

I doubt eulas and what not have legitimacy in all countries.

Yea but you cant claim lose of profits if your profits were not legitimate in the first place. Or something like that.

Point being if making cheats in belgium isn't illegal despite what the eulas say then the ET guy hacker cracker whatever was the only one doing illegal stuff, not matter what the cause.

Yea well, its not netcoders.ru ;D

Hey, they're introducing some copyright stuff there or already did?D

AllOfOGC.ru

you can get the lot of them for tax evasion...
And yeah they do have taxes in every country.

the site is Belgian and they seem to have a few uk ppl involved , or maybe they are just fanboys... it's defo EU based though. Yesterday i was speaking to the person who makes cheat protection for UT2004 and he said it violated EULA , would have to check back through my logs to get everything he said though

Yeah maybe, maybe not. Should just find out once and for all if EULAs hold legal grounds and breaking it by for instance making cheats for a game is punishable by law and what not.

You see it's not that important if it is illegal as such. If you click "Accept" on a license you form a contract with the company who made the game. And if you then violate the terms of the contract you can be punished for that regardless if the act itself is illegal.

I doubt you can in all countries. And I want to know if that's the case in belgium.

i think it might all depend on where the game is made rather than where you are situated ... im not a wizz on laws but it would be rather silly to have licence agreements if it didnt hold up in certain countries

Well surely us laws don't apply in Finland..

as far as i remember the EULA offered by id says that the US law is applicable. Therefor yes the US laws apply ven in finland.

a contract is a contract in every country of the world.

Punishment for failing to fulfill it and ways to get around it may differ but unless you live in North korea or Iran a contract is binding.

Unless there were no legal grounds in making that contract in the first place.. I'm NOT saying how it's supposed to be or how it is but I want to know the fact.

you are halfway correct. contracts can be invalid if some of the facts before making the contract were wrong. e.g. the signing person was too young, the game is not complete or contains failures
But then the contract an all that has been done afterwards becomes invalid too. So they couldn't have used the game to code hacks and sell them and would have to delete all their worl and give the money back to their customers.

other than that, contracts do not really come from the justicial world but people have been making contracts for a very long time and it's always the same procedure.

One party makes an offer, the other party agrees, and that is even true for Belgium. NO ifs and buts. And if that contract is invalid, see above.

[17:54:52] <someguy> Pushpabon, EULAs are only valid if the law paragraph regulating it is dispositive
[17:54:57] <someguy> and not all paragraphs are
[17:55:31] <Pushpabon> So what does that mean in action?
[17:56:02] <someguy> dispositive paragraph = it's only applied if you haven't mutually agreed on doing something else
[17:56:33] <someguy> indispositive = you must follow the law, and if you agree on something else, the agreement is invalid on that part
[17:56:59] <Pushpabon> And that's how it's in finland?
[17:57:09] <someguy> so if the EULA says "you may never sell this product forward to anyone", you can safely ignore that
[17:57:13] <someguy> for example
[17:57:27] <Pushpabon> and if it forbids making online cheats and spreading them?
[17:57:29] <Pushpabon> But you still do?
[17:57:53] <Pushpabon> They couldn't touch me?
[17:58:10] <someguy> not sure about cheats, if they alter the program and you spread it, it may well be a copyright violation
[17:58:24] <Pushpabon> Well technically they're separate
[17:58:40] <someguy> but it affects the way the original program works, right?
[17:58:41] <Pushpabon> separate programs that are injected or loaded and don't directly modify the exe afaik
[17:59:03] <someguy> i'm not sure about those

interesting.

however he didn't touch the case where the contracting parties are from different countries and (again afair) agreed to use the American law. So you might want to query him about that.

I any case i would think that it would be very difficult to argue that producing cheat is legal, especially as long as it's possible to prove they really did reverse engineer parts of the engine.

Another guy will get back to me soon and answer.. I'll wait..

ok.

I just checked to make sure, from the license.txt of Q4:

10. Governing Law, Venue, Indemnity, and Liability Limitation. This Agreement shall be construed in accordance with and governed by the applicable laws of the State of Texas (but excluding conflicts of laws principles) and applicable United States federal law.

Looking at it from the US perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap

But the German wiki page about EULAs tells me something completely different:
In case you bought the product on a data medium, the EULA is usually not valid (the purchase contract already allows you to use the product). [applies in the EU]
However there is an exception: In case you e.g. downloaded the software (hello ET ;)) the EULA is legally binding. But single articles of the EULA might not be valid. [applies at least in Germany]

hmm, that's really news to me but seems to make sense. So, if the EULA doesn't apply in any case, this would make a very interesting case.

How far is reverse egineering allowed (e.g. in America so far you may do it if serves a purpose that doesn't infringe with copyright in itself)?

Is producing a hack a copyrigh infringement? Cause they might copy parts of the priginal code that is protected by a patent.

Is cheating itself illegal? I think it would be when money is involved, but what about playing on a pub?

And if it is illegal is producing softwar that "only" allows cheating illegal? Similar discussion as in P2P software.


Oh, well I'm not anywhere close to being law expert, so researching this would take way too much of my time, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

Another guy said this:

if the programs are indeed separate, I see (from the limited info available in the question context) no reason about that being illegal; I know for certain that using such tools is 100% against the terms of use of the game service, though

I found something from 2000 describing the german law (UrhG §69; which is based on some european guideline from 1991). According to this reverse engineering is allowed when the software producer gives you the right to do so or when you want to create interoperability (I guess even when you need to circumvent a copy-protection). In any other case reverse engineering is not allowed.
This is even the case in the US under the DMCA.

edit: obviously this means that reverse engineering is considered a copyright violation. And since copyright is always guaranteed, netcoders is obviously violating the copyright law.

hmm, actually I'm not sure that is the case, cuase this interoperability might be a valid reason.

The original cases in the us (they hve this case-based judicial system as you probably know) is from a accolade vs sony.
And basically accolade reverse engineered one of sony's games for some console simply to find out how to run a game on that console.
They then used this knowledge to create their own games.

So, if considered a hack something not specific to a certain game and also considered the engine of a game to be something different from the game itself (gaeplay, textures, etc.) then this could be seen as a case where interoperability can only be achieved through reverse engineering.
I'm somewhat guessing here but I can see lawyer's at least trying to go with something similar.

On the other hand if those assumptions are wrong or the hacks themselves contain parts of patented code then is probably a different matter.


Anyway, lets just see if they really try something by sueing fusen and then we can sue their asses for tax evasion \o/

l2read

w00t?