I feel your pain. Most of the world grinds it out from day to day. The dream is to find work that you truly enjoy.

emo

living like a bum wouldn't work for me, I'd be the most active bum in history else :<

When does Battlestar Galactica S3 begin?

6. october

I hate that fucking expression.

frack off

Love the show, hate that expression. It's just stupid!

Blame the FCC.

No.

Why not?

They didn't force them to use this stupid expression and to use it a lot more than they would if they could use fuck.

Don't agree there. The show happens in a military environment. No swearing would look so stupid. Atleast put in something. Freck is better than nothing in my opinion. Maybe some day yanks will stop being so annoyingly puritanical.

You don't agree? So they did force them to use that stupid expression and overuse a lot?

It's not used that much tbh. Try reading what I said. If you can't use fuck what are you going to use? Dang or darn. I don't think so. Frack at least gets the point across.

i disagree strongly.

They are not forced by anyone to use Frack instead of Fuck, it is purely their own choice.. it's an artistic compromise to be able to show it at peak hours, on a bigger commerical network to make more money.

It's a great show, but this is just one of many areas where the authentic quality of it is compromised due to financial reasons.

That's just how it is with the yanks. Like I said frak is better than nothing and it was used in the original series so it atleast has some history in the BsG world.

wtf

its called rating systems, frack and fuck will both incur a different rating.
so it would have to be played at a later time to a smaller audience.

indeed BSG is a truly great series imo, at least up until the end of S2, which seemed to be a bit rushed.... but yeh, i love the realism and stuff, great show

breasts

you have a point!

Dunno, but just don't Migrate to the UK with that attitude.

We have a new chav generation and enough Eurotrash to fuck us up for a long time.
It started with the demise of Russia and now it's spreading across Eastern Europe.

racist

Truthist (R).

Those migrants are what make the UK a world leader in scientific research.

You're talking about a small % and you can thank places like Cambridge and Oxford for that long before immigration played a part.

Skilled workers are fine. it's the borderline refugees that cause the problem and are sadly the biggest influx of people we get.

I have mentioned this over the last year or so, last few weeks reports came in of just how many.
Let's just say our government put an estimate on something like 4,000 poles coming into the UK and actual figure was close to 500,000, and next year places like Romania/Estonia will be eligable.
Don't take a genius to work out many more will be coming over.

It sucks and I hope they stop it. And no Romania are threating the UK with legal action if we put restrictions on the numbers we allow in.
Hilarious.

At the end of the day it's the people of the coutry that by large make a place what it is.
And I don't think borderline refugee's who are prepared to work for a pittence (becasue it's still 10 times more than what they earn back home) are a good thing for the UK.
House prices are going up, unemployment etc and it helps others long befoer it helps us.

Immigration is fine if people can make a worthy contribution, but it sucks when people are just trying to escape their crappy countries and use the UK, which is what most do.

How many Brits do you see migrating to Easten Europe?
Hardly none, why is that I wonder?

Breaking news: Jamerio destroyed UK's economy.

Every country has its immigrants, the minorities that the locals just dont like.
If I am to take up a typical Czech racist view, then we have 'those fucking Russians/Ukranians, those fucking gypsies which settled here but came out of literally nowhere, those fucking Vietnamese and why the hell did they choose our republic, of all fucking places? So far away from their ethnic home...'
I understand what you mean.

I pity Spain. Spain is just getting a huge influx of Africans that the EU, with its bullshit Christian morals, feels it should treat nicely and 'welcome' to Europe. 'Welcome to Europe'?!!! You welcome them, you welcome another shitload, till they dont stop coming! They're fucking illegal immigrants!! They're worthless, poor, skill-less, and they leech off welfare.

Same with France. Political correctness demands otherwise, but political correctness nowadays is more a weakness than anything else - Sarkozy wants to stop the Arab and Muslim communities from invading France? SO BE IT. Go Sarkozy, toughen foreign policy because Europe has little to no more space for these Muslim-African immigrants.

Furthermore in Sweden Muslim communities that IMMIGRATED there declare that all Swedish women are whores because of the way they dress and because of the Swedish culture / religion that they adhere to. Because of that, they think they have the RIGHT to RAPE Swedish women. They are GUESTS in a country and they are DEFILING it and its' peoples.
Now of course I'm not speaking for all Muslims in Sweden but the situation has been reported as such by Swedes I've known as well as Swedish media.

I have no doubts that England is getting it's unfair share of useless, lazy, skill-less, to-be parasites of immigrants. I would probably have similar ideas if I were in your situation. The thing with Eastern European countries is that the whole 'political corectness' thing so strongly propagated in the West, does not count. When I was in Gliwice, Poland, I saw more Odinist crosses (white pride world wide) spray painted on walls than anywhere else... Czechs also don't like the immigrants much, well, and I believe they get more persecuted here than in your Western European countries because of the whole 'political corectness' deal.

I will be going to study to some Uni in England next year - Warwick or Nottingham - and as such I'm coming in as a to-be skilled laborer - not some poor dude that will leech off welfare.

Just because you were born in a shithole of a country doesn't mean that you should have the 'right' to live in a better place like everyone else - why don't you stay in your shithole and try to make it better to begin with?

I'm certainly not racist towards other non-white people, but I'm just against unnecessary immigrants spoiling the economies and societies of European countries. When I say unnecessary, I mean those that have no skills and that basically immigrate illegally only to leech off Europe.

Nice one :)

But take a look at this....

Country
United Kingdom

Area sq miles
94,525

Population
60,609,153

Country
Spain

Area sq miles
194,896

Population
40,397,842

Some quick facts.

Spain is twice as big as the UK, yet has 20 million less people to house.

Mainland UK is then split up into SCOTLAND, ENGLAND, WALES and just across the pond N.IRELAND.
Each are a very concentrated and proud country. Our roads are already at breaking point, NHS is collapsing becasue of too many people, house prices are already going throug the roof.
It's just time to say no.
People should make their own country work instead of giving up on it moving to uk in droves in turn causing more problems and making the people who have lived there for decades feel like growing outsiders.

I t would not be so bad if people from the UK can go elsewhere, but there is not really anywhere better in Europe to go.
Sorry guys but there I'm hard pushed to think where.

And to think we banished people to Australia all them years ago.
talk about fkin ironic:)

OK, maybe the UK is the best place for the immigrants to go, I pretty much agree... The UK needs a hard-liner like Sarkozy to take power, and they need one now.
Sorry but that Blair idiot of yours is just trying to make something like the United States in the UK - which, as you correctly pointed out, is not gonna work simply because the UK is chock full and cannot really take anymore.
Health / welfare systems / national economies of other big Western European countries such as France and Germany are also on their knees due to the strain of having to deal with their populations...

You might certainly have better living conditions there in Western Europe, but I went to a metal festival here in CZ during the summer and met 4 cool Brits from Bedford (or smtg like that). Why did they go? Because 50 pence per beer (500mL), good bands and extremely cheap ticket price (compared to the other festivals they went to in England). If Eastern European countries adopt that shit Euro currency, prices will also go through the roof and Western Europeans wont have anywhere to retreat to happily for some easy, good, cheap partying.

Oh and check this out,
http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/interview01.shtml
search for 'muslim' varg vikernes has a similar view of the muslims as i do...

haha using Varg as a reference ruined it i'm afraid :)

gg quoting a guy currently serving time for 1xMurder and 5xChurchburning. Good musician but not very sane otherwise.

Chuch burning sounds like a good idea to me.

not when they are 500 year-old cultural treasures :/

Mentally repressive icons of idiocy. But i get your point. The Varg dude is a loon.

Easier to say that he's crazy than actually reading through some of his arguments against Christianity hmmm?

Just because he's in, and has been in, prison for over a decade, does not make him entirely crazy. Sure, some of his ideas are pretty weird, but overall I enjoy reading his texts.

He's just as moronic as some of the Christians. His take on Ásatrú is absolutely vile and sickens me. I have read the original texts many times over. There is nothing to support his idiotic fascist crap. Face it, the guy is loon.

I actually cant comment on his takes on the Asatru but if you say they are vile, then I cannot do anything but agree as I have no argument / opinion on this subject matter.
The guy may be a loon maybe that's what makes reading his texts so curious = diary of a madman :D

Yeah I find reading stuff by guys like him sometimes interesting. But I would never take any of it seriously.

The first time i saw u talk about him ages ago i read thru the whole website and all the blogs, he's a loon.

I was only quoting him for an interesting view on Muslims that is somewhat similar to mine. So what if he murdered someone and burned 5 churches? The murder was in self-defense, really, and the burning of the churches was just... well... uh... wrong, but it proves his fervent belief that Christianity doesn't belong in Scandinavia :)

Have you actually read any or all of his texts without any prejudice and actually given thought to it or have you just rejected anything he says or writes because of what he did over 10 years ago?

Also what he did like one year ago, when the cops found him in his car during perole with several assault rifles and a kevlar vest. I don't think the guy has a healthy attitude to life in any way.

I read his entire story about killing Euronymous a few months back, I was kind of ambivalent before, but then I got pretty convinced he's really not suited to spend time outside prison walls.

With almost one hundred and twenty-seven million people Japan has one of the highest population densities in the world. (127,417,244 in 2005) The population is concentrated in and around three major cities: Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya. Over eight million people live in Tokyo. Japanese have a high life expectancy believed to be connected with their healthy diet. Since population growth is relatively low, the population is rapidly aging.

God, you turd, you sound just like all right wing extremists across the world. Right wingers are using that muslims-rape-swedish-women argument here, and that they somehow condone it, such a load of TRASH. I know a few muslims and that is NOT how they or people they know view things, and I'd like to see this swedish media (as long as its not some rightwing newsletter that just exchange the words rapist, robber and murderer to nigger, regardless of race of the actual criminal). God I'm fed up with this trash. Why the fuck should people have to lead miserable lives abroad just because you don't like seeing kebab restaurants pop up here and there? I say, instead of closing the borders and ignoring the problem, keep the borders open and get the other countries up to speed so they don't need to move to have decent lives.

God I hate you and your miserable attitude to immigration.

Relax.
I am somewhat right wing, but certainly not extreme right wing.
Dude, I dont mind immigration, and I'm not racist either. I'm glad that what I read about Muslim communities in Sweden is wrong, because 'Islam' is the religion of peace, after all.

As for your reference to kebab houses popping up: that's a good thing! I'm all for immigrants taking up this kind of action to be able to support themselves - it also enriches the cultural experiences of the locals. I'm not against that.

I'm against immigrants that immigrate and fall on a country and depend on it entirely to support them without doing anything (ie getting a job) themselves. The mentality that 'Oh I'm illegaly immigrating to a country and if I make it there then I can just go on living off the people and government once I'm there' is what I'm against. It really leads to crime, and then the locals start thinking that 'oh it's those minorities that commit the crimes' - which doesn't help the reputation of others belonging to that minority who work an honest job, as well as the majority of locals who might get a wrong impression of that minority. That mentality is flawed and lazy. One way or another, even most of those who live comfortable lives had to work one way or another to get to that point.

I'm not against people emigrating to a European country for a better life - as long as they don't become a burden for that society to which they are emigrating. On a bit of a harsher note, though, why don't they just try to improve the conditions in their own homelands? Sure, emigrate, become a part of a minority in a different country - but then forgetting about your homeland isn't gonna make it easier for the others who couldn't emigrate. Furthermore, if they live miserable lives in their countries - shit, shit, shit, why don't they try to improve it instead of just moving to where those problems have been eliminated and just settling there, and never looking back where they came from?

frack off nazi

i vill ffipe yoo off my boots like hundscheisse

hundescheisse

My german is getting poorer and poorer ever since I absolutely fucking aced my german 'Abitur' exam one year early :/

you get taught stuff like hundescheisse at school? gj :(

well thats the point if i dont spell it correctly its what we're NOT taught :)

Those arguments are pretty common with the rightwingers here too, that immigrants come here and start to leech off our generous welfare, but the fact is, it's the indigenous people that do. Most immigrants start small businesses or get to work as cleaning ladies, nurses etc, they don't go on the dole. They often get paid under the table, but they seldomly go on the dole.

I know a few people going on welfare, none of them is an immigrant or immigrant child.

Very good! I'm all for those kinds of immigrants. Half of what makes them able to be in a more favorable situation as you have outlined is the government - I suppose the UK can't handle it's constant flow of immigrants anymore, hence Jamerio's (and others' upset).

Quite a few people upset in sweden as well, blaming immigrants for their problems, wouldn't guess it's very different in the czech republic or the UK, people reminiscing about the old days and finding explanations why things aren't good anymore, when it's actually just the rosy tint of memory and looking back at their childhood. Immigrants are not a problem, I wouldn't mind if my (hypothetical) daughter married a nice arab man and my grandsons had beards starting from 16 :D.

it is very different in the uk.

please say out of england we dont want you, why come so far to abuse our education system, stay near your cultural home YOU DIRTY EASTERN EURO

I'm not abusing your education system if I'm helping England to maintain it's reputation as world leader in scientific research, you tardlock.
And while we're at it, why don't you come to here to Eastern Europe, we need more of those unqualified chav dumbfucks like you to clean our streets. Too many people here are too smart and have no other choice but go and do the work UKers like you are too fucking stupid to do. You lick your arse, and with your British passport in hand, you reap the benefits you get from the government, whereas us continental Europeans go to your higher education and keep the UK the top scientific research nation in the world.
Stop complaining, you know the UK would be fucked without us ;)

No you're using our good schools go back to your third world country and get a better job, please keep out of my country you dirty inbred scum, id rather have a muslim than you.

Now clean more floors and serve me some food

I can assure you that you are completely uninformed of the situation with higher education in the UK. You see, once I graduate with a degree from any of your universities, the UK will do all in its power to keep me in its borders and work for them. Which I'll be happy to do.

Now hold still, chav, this injection to cure your gonorrhea and syphilis won't hurt a bit.

stfu nazi youre coming over to england taking up a place a in an english school which an english person could take up and using it to benefit yourself and your country england doesnt need nazi communist fags like you

Except that if one of your oh-so-good universities pick ME over one of its own people, it should speak volumes about the intelligence of each.
(As far as I can tell, most good UK unis prefer intelligent over stupid people.)

ofcourse you do realise that the gov give them more money for taking foreign students? thats because you are cheaper labour with or without a degree

I don't know if that's true, but you seem to believe so... either way, why complain, then?

ie you're a spunger :P

you brits come here and guzzle our beer coz u know its better than anything u have :P

Dood i dont really care to much if you coem here or not, im just showing you how you act towards other immigrants is how alot of western europeans think of you, theres plenty of qualified eastern europeans here, theya ll work in kfc so please get off your high horse

what? you have the same view of me as I do of immigrants? do you know what my view even is? i'm not unskilled and i'm definitely going to UK to leech off benefits.
you're just confused beyond consolation...

How are you skilled? what skills do you have, your a fucking kid who hasnt been to uni yet, whats skills do you have? are you intending to work in the uk once you get your degree hm?? i doubt it, and having a degree doesnt make you skilled at anything, you have to work to do that

I can tell your views from what you posted all ready and all my posts were to ape what you were saying about immigrants, well im lettign you know western europeans see you immigrants in your country

Your confusion is distorting your coherence and comprehensibility. Try again.

Your whine on muslims from a czech perspectives is pretty similiar to the whine on czechs and other eastern europeans from a UK perspective.

I don't see how the UK whine is qualified?
There's little reason for Czechs without some professional degree to go to the UK - prices there are EASILY fucking double, triple what we have here.

[...] nazi communist [...]

That's something new.

Not really, if you look intot he history of both, even tho theyh are ment to be opposite they actually end up doing the same thing

You must be in the same league of education as ricky.

orly? maybe im old enough to know theres no real left or right wing, the communists killed as many civilains as the nazis did in there concentration camps, taking whole countries grain supplies so they'd strave to death, mass murdering poles and blaming the germans for it, the list goes on yet they are ment to be the opposite of the nazis

Anyways bring back the wall i say

Any sources (HISTORIANS) for those claims of yours? If you knew anything about history, let alone studied it, you'd at least bring up a historian to support your point.
What a shame, too, such excellent historians teach in the UK... AJP Taylor, Stephen J. Lee, Martin McCauley, Alan Orr, Allan Todd...
Do you ever get anything right?

Why do ii have to bother, its esr, and they admitted to it, theres something called common knowledge.

Anyway i hope you enjoy your job in kfc

More like sit still chav while I cure your gonorrhea and syphilis with a shitload of injections and prescribed drugs.

I with you on this one. Theres a limit and it has been surpassed.

here in the US, we're also having a big problem with immigrants. they're mainly just coming from mexico, and in 5-10 years, there will be more mexicans in the US than any other race. but only the major republicans bitch about this because the majority of the immigrants have the jobs that no one else really wants. but the US is a clusterfuck of immigrants. chicago alone has more polish people than warsaw. and god knows how many irish ppl came here from the potato famine. it's just that the US is so diverse that no one really notices it that much any more (the South eastern states being the exception, they are the ppl that hate immigrants and they deny that they were originally immigrants.) Plus most ppl here are a mixture of a bunch of races (myself being Swedish, Russian, Portuguese, Spanish, Aztec, German, French, and Scottish).

In conclusion, KKK is for assholes.

I agree. In the case of the USA -- let them immigrate. First generation immigrants grind it out in lower paying jobs, and their children go to Ivy league schools and get competitive jobs. Just like every ethnic group before them. They will not even be "stealing" jobs away from anyone, the population will be larger, there will be more companies, more jobs, and a greater GNP.

Immigration only highlights preexisting problems with the welfare systems some European countries have. If it's easy to get and stay on welfare then sure, lots of people will probably do it.

I guess living on a small island could also be a seperate problem. Sorry England.

Not trying to sound cocky or insulting, and I'm not really up to date what the welfare system in the US is like either. But what I recall is something like: it's not existant. I guess immigrants in (some) European countries and the citizens in general receive much more from the welfare/social system than people in the US do (please correct me if I'm wrong). And I guess that just makes a huge difference.

Skilled workers are fine. it's the borderline refugees that cause the problem and are sadly the biggest influx of people we get.

As usual everything you say is at best just wrong and at worst ridiculous conjecture based on your own prejudices. Studies have shown that of the newer breed of immigrants from countries like Bulgaria etc. who are entering the UK an overwhelming majority of them are working and in no way attempting to live off benefits like you and your friends in the bnp seem to think. Highlighting the rare and extreme cases in the Sun so idiots like you get riled up is how people sell newspapers, it's not indictative of reality.

If you care so much about people who act like refugees and live only to use up government resources via benefits then your problem shouldn't be with immigrants, who have proven themselves to be hard working and sincere in integrating culturally, instead you should be campaigning for the newest generation of British youth in major metropolitan areas like Liverpool and Manchester to be shipped out. That's where the benefit money is being used in a wasteful if not illegal manner.

Your tired rhetoric not only smacks of someone who views biased media and doesn't go out and LIVE life but also of the kind of narrow-mindedness we had when people were saying the black men would rape our white daughters.

Grow up, it's the 21st century and we're trying to breed out your kind of racism. The fact you think it to be true doesn't make it any less racist.

Clown.

Truth Hurt's.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=16187

Russian officials concede that the country's Far East risks becoming a no man's land. The population in the area has declined by 20 per cent in the last 15 years, despite a revival of the regional economy, Kamil Iskhakov, the presidential envoy to the Far East said on in mid-May. "People are leaving because they can not find acceptable living conditions," he told an 18 May meeting in Khabarovsk.

Oh and to further backup what I said.

http://www.economist.com/background/displayst...id=2352862

What does that quote has to do with you being an entertaining idiot?

Nothing idiotic about being able to see trends and spotting problems before they happen.
Perhaps if you were able to see how things were going then you would not be in such a mess.

Well, I'm glad you spotted a new chav generation and that there is enough Eurotrash to fuck you up for a long time!
Oooh and now I know that *IT* started with the demise(!) of Russia(!) and now(!) IT's spreading across Eastern Europe.
Thanks, I mean, what you write couldn't possibly be reworded to be any more idiotic and therefore is so damn funny. And huge thanks for breaking this great truth to me, since now I know that PERHAPS, just PERHAPS, if I were able to predict a mess, I could avoid it!!!!
LMAO
[falls under table]

Chav generation is slang name for Britains's new generation of people who have no ambition other than milking benefits.
They are a real problem in the UK.

Eurotrash is with regards to the millions of Europeans coming into the country from 3rd world parts of europe, doing jobs for peanuts and not really caring about the country so that the people born and bread here are forced to work for cheaper and also feel that the country is over run by foreigners. Those are very serious social changes which have huge impacts.
People forget the UK is a tiny place.

There are plenty of people of people who feel like that in the UK, jsut as anywhere else would if there was a huge influx of foreigners.

There's nothing idiotic about those points or the realisation of them.
Still I guess if you don't laugh you would only cry :)

what's with the truth hurts? i don't get it

That fact that I was talking sense and he got angry and resorted to insults.
I was not being rude, I was simply talking about the facts. I should be more sensive I guess :)

"he got angry and resorted to insults"
you may take it as an insult, but you make me anything but angry

Then why choose to throw an insult all of a sudden on this particular comment, that happened to mention your own country?

That self denial is not fooling anyone.

perhaps because I wan't intending it as an insult, rather a heads-up, to tell you how much I love your stuff, and uhm, what exactly you think I'm denying?

yeah, well don't use that expression it sux ass

No, you're a clown / retard / ignorant / racist / etc

Those Polish migrants are what keeps the country running, try reading something besides the Sun.

Yes Polish immigrants keep this country running. Lol. twat.

mr. 8months on the dole

FYI I could go on the dole for the next 10 years and I would be nowhere near the amount of tax I payed.

I was on it becasue I was waiting for a visa for a job I was offered in the states. That's the difference between people who use the system in an acceptable way and full blown leachers who aspire to abuse it for the rest of their life.

whatever leecher

Says the fat chav who spent 8 months on the dole and is a racist moron who reads the sun.

lol, i love how u say eurotrash as if the UK was any better. tbh, i reckon the UK has some of the most extreme social problems in Europe, let alone the G8

I don't mean all of Europe. There's a ton of trash in the UK too.
But at least they have right to be here and their ancestros have probably contributed a lot to the country.

It's a lot easier to deal with knowing that, rather than some gyspy coming over and simply abusing the system for life.

maybe.., i was refering to britain as a nation, and the fact that they are so far up their own asses...

You show me a country which is several times smaller than the state of texas that has anywhere near as much influence on the modern world as we do and I'll admit you're right.

Famous writers, actors, muscians, technology, science, art, heritage, universities and a million other things. Past, present and no doubt future.
They are no co-incidence and are down to the people of britain. Not some lucky bit of geography.. However you feel about the Uk it's the most concentrated country on the planet. Even if it has gone downhill in recent years.
He'll even this site's run by Brits.

Probably why Brits are seen as arrogant, but maybe, that's just other people from dare I say places that have achieved less feeling jealous or belittled in comparison?

I'm not being a patriot either, you can say things about other countries good and bad, but it's very easy to put people's noses out of joint when you're talking from the top shelf.

Do a list and see what makes a country good and I'm pretty sure we have them all.
Culture, economy, influence, tolerance, fair play, blah blah blah.

influence, ROFL, good one.

culture, ROFL,

stop licking ur own arse...

u live here and dont think theres culture. lol.

usually, u refer to a countries culture positively, but that is not entirely possible with british culture. contemporary culture at least, i recognise that our nation ( yes im a brit ) has worthy historic culture.

not entirely possible with all countries am sure

maybe, but the UK is still the contemporary culture cess pit of europe....

FACT!

In your glorfication of your 51 st american state you handily forget too mention a large parth of britains wealth came from the abusal of colonies around the world, not in the least India.

Tolerance? Only when it pays in cash, Fair play? Tell that to those on the bottom steps of the oh so glorious caste system your nation once introduced.

The Brits are robbing bastards I agree.

*Cough English*

Yet you non-english (scottisch and whatnot) seem quite content with reaping the benefits. Those 'nationality' tricks only serve those who wish to evade their own responsibility i'm afraid =)

hahaha yeah those fucking welsh would still be living in mud huts ahahah fucking welsh

Famous writers, actors, muscians, technology, science, art, heritage, universities and a million other things. Past, present and no doubt future.

You had nothing to do with any of those things mentioned, stop saying "we" and trying to associate yourself with any achievements implied. People achieve things and last time I checked the world is full of people. Whether they happen to speak in a certain dialect or live on a particular piece of dirt rarely has anything to do with the greatness of their achievements.

Everything you seem to be proud of about the UK needs to be tempered with an understanding of the price innocent people in other countries had to pay for those things to be possible. Don't be proud of what you didn't achieve, don't be ashamed of what you didn't do, just inform yourself FFS.

the point is being drunk

verb?

adjective?

it's only popular because its leagal, it's really crappy

hooosa

too bad all the better alternatives are being illegalized as soon as they are made, because they've not been around for ages :\

hasch has been round, round, round and round :D

i won't claim to know anything about HHistory, but AHistory is even older and more "severe" yeah? ;)

Q4T!

teh four quakes? :C

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=q4t

omg you so urban, i wanna touch you! <3

its all about the money, also, ignorance was rife when most drugs were made illegal, rightly so in the cases of some drugs however.

also, hemp and flax would have been a competitor to many mant established industries.... such as petrol...

GUNS'N'MONEY makes teh world go round

neg, fuel makes the world go round...

flue!

Indeed, some of the people involved in having hemp/cannabis made illegal had vested interests in the paper industry amusingly/tragically.

what a joke the US policies are

People who don't work are the prisoners of society. They are denied many many choices which make life worth living, with no sense of reward or achievement in their contribution.

Some people aspire to do nothing, to be content, to fit in, to fund their mediocre lives with 9-5 jobs as you say.... or do they? It's true that people quickly put themselves into a position where they cannot afford risk, and risk is perhaps sometimes the greater enjoyment in life. Whichever they choose, they should work to live, and not live to work </deadpoetssoc>.

Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living. Without challenging your life, even in small ways to learn more about yourself, you can quickly fit into the fuzz of life and it will blur past you at an amazing speed. Don't underestimate how fast life will go - I am fairly sure an older you would tell you that.

People focus all too quickly on equating a job to earning money. You are quite right in what you are saying that why bother when your job is unrewarding for the time it takes up in your life. The solution is not to quit though (to an even more unrewarding lifestyle), which gives you even less choices albeit more time. It's to find a job which challenges you, which lets you examine yourself and your life, perhaps with risk.

From the gaming-viewpoint, it could be said the biggest wasters right now are World of Warcraft players. Here they invest large amounts of time for very little benefit to their lifes, which ultimately suffer as a result. (When you look at what they are actually doing, spending huge amounts of time and effort just to change some numbers on a database somewhere, which will most likely be deleted at some point anyway). Without sounding corny, if they applied themselves to real life in much the same way, looking at the bigger picture, the real quests (and exploring the bigger maps) and what needs to be done to achieve them, they would benefit so much more.

Perhaps the biggest reason WoW is popular is that it is something which can be controlled to give a sense of achievement, rather than real life which often can't be (or cannot be without risk). This is pure escapism, and much the same as you are eluding to in your question. The point is you *can* control your life and steer it to where you want it to go, to things you have passion for, and you can apply yourself with as much fun and reward as you'd have in any hobby.

Of course there are extremes, that you can find a dull job which pays great, or an great job which doesn't pay at all. The secret is working out where the balance should be for you, and ideally finding something you enjoy a huge amount and get paid for, but would do the job whether or not you get paid, because it is how you want to spend your time and your life - no easy decision, and you don't have to get it right the first time.

Care to explain

How do you define working, and is this the same sort of working that the author originally meant in the first post?
How the unemployed exactly are the prisoners of society?
What are these choices that make life worth living that the umemployed are denied?
How exactly they are denied sense of reward/achievent/contribution by not working?
Why do you have to mask the challenge into a work; why cannot you challenge yourself otherwise?

How do you know how much WoW players benefit from their experience, getting that item or reaching that level can be a greater experience for them than any of the stuff you do in your work... this game is based on a dreamworld, and because of that they are allowed to do stuff they cannot do IRL, which for you might seem as "escapism, timewasting", but it could also be seen in socrates-way; experiencing the side of life through escapism that you could not otherwise.

mm, interesting and good points indeed

Yes working is the same as defined above.

People who don't work (not necessarily just unemployed) may not have the same choices and freedoms as others who do, quite simply this is what money provides. Unfortunately society and everything which goes with it, is not something you can just opt out of without significant downsides. I also suspect for many countries, the welfare state will become more and more privatised as time goes on, for which a job will be even more of a requirement.

Working should provide the sense of reward/achievement/contribution which makes life worth living, to be challenged and to explore yourself in this way. It's not that you shouldn't challenge yourself otherwise (by means of a hobby etc.), it is that this is what work should be about. It is *not* about just providing money to fund your limited free-time, but should serve some greater role than that in your life.

WoW is not, and should not be a substitute for what life can offer - in many cases the extent to which WoW players damage their IRL just fuels their need for more escapism (c.f. hard drugs). To rely so heavily on escapism for any sense of worth is a hollow life. Escapism is nothing about the examined life to which Socrates refers (by sheer nature in that it is a fiction), and is in fact, the complete antipode of the point he was making.

The irony is also that for the age-group for which WoW is most appealing, is the same age-group which needs to put in the most effort into education and career to give them the most choices of choosing what they really want to do later in life. The escapism from making their lives better, taking control, bettering themselves, is simply a downhill slope if left unchecked - as much as you'd like to see it as a short-term sense of achievement

"People who don't work (not necessarily just unemployed) may not have the same choices and freedoms as others who do, quite simply this is what money provides."

U are not just gaining freedoms and choices, instead, u sacrifice some to gain some. What freedoms and choices; converting to item fetisistism in exchange of selling your valuable time?

"Unfortunately society and everything which goes with it, is not something you can just opt out of without significant downsides."

For me this sounds a lot like persuading one to do something against one's will instead of a sound, freedom-driven choice.

"Working should provide the sense of reward/achievement/contribution which makes life worth living, to be challenged and to explore yourself in this way."

Why?

"To rely so heavily on escapism for any sense of worth is a hollow life."

Well, for me the art-experiences and for some religious experiences are greatly more fullfilling and give greatly more than say, mobbing the floors. I guess whatever rocks one's boat.

U are not just gaining freedoms and choices, instead, u sacrifice some to gain some. What freedoms and choices; converting to item fetisistism in exchange of selling your valuable time?

For me this sounds a lot like persuading one to do something against one's will instead of a sound, freedom-driven choice.

Unfortunately this is what society is about (see John Stuart Mill's Essay 'On Liberty'). And money is not as simple as 'item fetisistism', money should be attached to an emotional need... your 'freedom' might be to provide homes and food for those less fortunate than yourself, your 'freedom' might be to have the ability to make others happy, or your 'freedom' might be to make your time meaningful, experience new cultures, new ways of life, to explore, to examine, and to challenge your life.

Art-experiences and religious experiences add meaning to life by augmentation, but are not escapisms.

I'm pretty sure socrates wasn't reffering to monetary gain, in fact I'd consider him to be a major proponent of eudaimonia - You don't need money, or a job, to achieve that.

You seem to be reasonable, but in fact what you're suggesting is that you need to be doing something practical in order to enjoy life, in order to be truely happy and fulfilled. In fact, it's quite the opposite, I'm sure this doesn't hold true for the majority of people on welfar, but for someone considering it I'm sure the mind holds pleasures far greater than those you aqquire from your 9 - 5.

Perhaps if you find your cognitive fulfilment from whatever job you have, then your point of view is skewed, but I for one believe that if a person decides to be introspective and reclusive, living on only the basics that society provides them, they can still be truely happy. Perhaps, in fact, it is easier to believe that you are doing something of worth, when you're working, but are instead escaping the reality of your mundane existence, even if you believe your job is wholesome and fulfilling - Perhaps it is the easy way out, and the hard thing to do, would be to sit down, think, analyse yourself, and come to terms with your own personality until you become truely happy.

Who said it was all about 'monetary gain'? My posts were very much about the balance of finding something worthwhile to do with your time whilst providing enough money for you to not feel trapped by the lack of opportunity and choice. Considering the vast amount of time you put into work, it would be foolish to prostitute yourself purely for money - this is the crux of the point I am making.

Secondly how can sustaining yourself on welfare be anything other than ethically corrupt when you are not contributing yourself? Where is fulfilment in that? It's an ultimately selfish and maschoistic lifestyle if purely by choice.

The point about work is that it doesn't have to be a source of revenue for your free time only. That you can use it to analyse yourself and your life (as in all parts of your life) - by example Socrates based his work around 'the love of wisdom'; his psychological eudaimonism.

You're thinking in absolutes, so much so I doubt you can be reasoned with.

If you find that getting a job, making some money, and working during the majority of your life, allows you to achieve happiness, awesome; but please, don't ever tell anyone else that's the way they should live their life.

Where as the above might serve well for you, for someone else it may seem completely unfulfilling; they may prefer to devote their life to study, or in fact, to doing nothing: who are you to decide that they are not happy? Or that they do not feel fulfilled? I don't understand how you can justify telling someone else that your life is better simply because you work.

You have also failed to competantly define work: what of the artist who bring in no money but loves art to the extent that it does not matter? If they're not bringing in any money, is it still classed as work? What of a mother who devotes her life to bringing up children, is that still work? What of a person who travels the world, hunting etc for food, or living with local village people etc? What of those who live "the good life"? Are you going to tell these people that they are wasting their lives?

Anyway, I'm certain you'll never deviate from your 9 - 5 mentality, a mentality thas has most likely been drummed into you since GCSE level, "Thoust must goest to university, or thoust will becometh a bum!"; it's sad that the one thing I would hold as important for a truely fulfilling life, an open mind, is something you do not posess.

It seems I have to quote myself to not get my points overlooked so quickly.

People focus all too quickly on equating a job to earning money.

Of course there are extremes, that you can find a dull job which pays great, or an great job which doesn't pay at all. The secret is working out where the balance should be for you, and ideally finding something you enjoy a huge amount and get paid for, but would do the job whether or not you get paid, because it is how you want to spend your time and your life - no easy decision

I've already pointed out that you can still have a job which doesn't pay at all, and that it is not about one or the other, but about a personal balance which is right for the individual - hardly telling someone how to live.

'what of the artist who bring in no money but loves art to the extent that it does not matter? If they're not bringing in any money, is it still classed as work? What of a mother who devotes her life to bringing up children, is that still work? What of a person who travels the world, hunting etc for food, or living with local village people etc?'

Yes entirely - I already said this?. This is the balance which I discussed in my first post quoted above.

I'm certain you'll never deviate from your 9 - 5 mentality

I don't work 9-5 (and I don't consider you open minded for your assumptions), and a large majority of my work is unpaid simply because I enjoy the work and find it rewarding - a big chunk of my work is also providing free technology for developing countries.

So, now you're extending work to include anything you actually do? Walking down the street is now classed as work!

Ofcourse if you extend your definition far enough you're going to be right.

All men are firefighters!
No, they're not.
Yeah they are!
But I don't put out fires.
You've never turned a gas stove down? Or blew out a candle? etc etc

How ridiculously annoying.

I had defined it in my first post, as quoted.

If you define work as only something you get paid for, then by inference the unpaid artist, missionary, philosopher would not be working - clearly not the case.

Yes but then that's my point, why is it so wrong for people to pursue things, perhaps even mental, and still collect benefits?

The philopher, for instance, perhaps he doesn't wish to work, and so spends all his time reading, absorbing, studying; if he then collects benefits for survival, is he still wasting his life?

Perhaps we're just misunderstanding each other.

The philopher, for instance, perhaps he doesn't wish to work, and so spends all his time reading, absorbing, studying; if he then collects benefits for survival, is he still wasting his life?

I'm sure if you asked him what his work was, he'd tell you he was a philosopher and list his studies. If you asked the artist what is work was, he would tell you about his paintings (etc.), each talking about their work.. And so on..

This was EXACTLY my point, these people choose to work on things which help them explore themselves, challenge themselves, and gain satisfaction from them, albeit at risk (for example, the artist of not earning anything at all).

In terms of balance, they've opted for an extreme end of the enjoyment-money balance. I think it is fair to say that most people go for the 'safer' option (the other extreme) of the 9-5 boring knuckle-down job which you seemed to very quickly assume/cast me in?

The tone of my first post is actually toward choosing the more risky end, rather than choosing to do nothing at all and aiming to live on welfare. Far better to aim to be something you really aspire to be, which actually matters to you as a person.

This was EXACTLY my point, these people choose to work on things which help them explore themselves, challenge themselves, and gain satisfaction from them, albeit at risk (for example, the artist of not earning anything at all).

this is different to wowers how? :)

I agree that there are exceptions, for things like Philosphers, and artists, . BUT, those are exceptions (less than 1%) and if you apply such scrutiny to every point then you could argue about the validity of some of the strongest points in the world.

All you can do is talk from a general POV and base opinions which serve and reflect the majority of people, which is what he's doing and what most adhere to.

I have been in positons where I have earned a lot of money and I gotta be honest it did not really make me happy. Plus I know some rich people and they are far from happy.

It gave me freedom to buy a faster car, go on holidays, stay in nice hotels and made me feel like I was a success, but it also raised my entire expectations about what I need to achieve to be happy and doing reasonably high profile jobs or getting paid a lot of money can be adownfall.

The balance is to find something you enjoy and that pays enough for you to live a comfy life.
If you go above or below that you risk losing perspective and becoming unhappy.

That's my opinion.

Just as an aside, it is perhaps worth considering that all money is worthless unless it can have an emotional need attached to it or the use of it. The extent of that emotional need is a measure of the worth of the money to the individual.

more importantly you have to take responsibility for you own needs

Yeah it certainly made me happy as a child as my parents were always working instead of being home where i wanted them to be. Your freedom can also take away homes and make people less fortunate, by taking from the poor to benefit the luxury of the rich. No, society isn't all about doing work that usually does not benefit the common good just because the factory owners or politicians want u to, it's also caring about eachother.

Taking money from the welfare state unneccessarily makes the less fortunate poorer too, removes homes etc.? It's those working who contribute the money which pays for the welfare state in the first place.

If we look at the money, those who work for the state don't contribute either, only take. As far the necessarity goes, great deal of working people harvest valuable natural recourses to make products that arent necessary. Cut down forests, polluted land and air, suffering people and animals, these don't show up in numbers either.

An irrelevant point, nothing to do with the topic of conversation.

Howcome?

erm?...

"The irony is also that for the age-group for which WoW is most appealing, is the same age-group which needs to put in the most effort into education and career to give them the most choices of choosing what they really want to do later in life."

In my country there's no age limit for education, in fact my mum started upper secondary school at the age of 51. However, you are young only once.

At 51 most people have other responsibilities and therefore risks in giving up a career to gain further education - yes it is possible, but it is a much more difficult route, and an unneccessary one. Building a career to really do what you want takes time, and the sooner it is started, the better.

Everybody does not know what they want to do later in life, and for me being young is physically the most enjoyable part of life, which will be sacrificed in order to gain something that you do not know if you even want.

To miss out on schooling immediately removes a huge number of options, regardless of what you want to end up doing.

The language you use is so broad that its hard to comment without u being more precise about these huge numbers of options being denied and so on. Depends on what we are talking about; if we are looking at the side of work markets, of course aging and stuff like that will probably make getting an actual job harder; but where i live there is not age limit for secondary studies.

We were talking about missing upper secondary school at the normal age.

Which you are able to study later-on. Imo you still got plenty of time to work and study later-on even if you wouldn't do it immediately.

When you have...

other responsibilities and therefore risks in giving up a career to gain further education - yes it is possible, but it is a much more difficult route, and an unneccessary one.

If you are talking much shorter term, then fine, take a 2 year sabatical to play WoW... however most people don't and stick with the jobs they end up in based on crappy results, because it is too difficult a process to step back and do things all again.

spending that much time "escaping" surely indicates something else is wrong. many things could be that reason, from social exclusion(living a long way away from friends) or other mental instability

Spending how much time? And doing what exactly? Is your idea that something has to be wrong with you if you would instead play WoW rather than, say, work? Erm... living long away from friends means mental instability? Please be more spesific.

i was just saying that doing it as a passtime is ok, like what i used to play games for, cos my mates lived far, and i wouldnt always be able to see them everyday after school, so i played games instead. thats what i mean by social exclusion. if however the kid has a problem facing reality and substitutes it for the game, that is a sign of mental instabiltity.

i dnt even kno what im arguing for or against anymore...

Your use of terms is very loose as the word "mental instability" could mean virtually anything and for me, sounds very old-fashioned. There's also some assumptions (that everybody acts from the same premises as you) to make in order to get to that conclusion (which I understand differently between your first and second post). What I think what you are meaning is some sort of (agora)phobia(?) that in this case would be showing as playing extensive amounts of computer games.

no, what im saying is that some ppl play WoW out of boredom and lack of irl friends in the close vicinity, but it never becomes more than that, where as others eventually end up playing simply for the sake of playing

People who don't work are the prisoners of society. They are denied many many choices which make life worth living, with no sense of reward or achievement in their contribution

ROFL shut up. What are these choices that make life worth living? What country they go on holiday to? Woah! No sense of reward? No sense of achievement? Sorry but any sane person would agree that being a parent and caring for your child is more rewarding than say developing a game. And parents on benefits could actually be more helpful than otherwise due to the consistant availability, providing holidays, designer clothing etc comes far behind that. What are these rewards that you speak of? An internet connection? You'd class it as a bigger achievement, you typing on a forum compared to a family who can't afford an internet connection who actually spend a lot of time together talking/having fun as a family? Why do you hate welfare so much? You come across as some rich conservative looking down on people who are on a lower "class" status.

It's amazing that you immediately equate money to trivial things rather than the basics which so many people do without?

'Sorry but any sane person would agree that being a parent and caring for your child is more rewarding than say developing a game.'

I don't dispute that, but this is not the discussion?

'Why do you hate welfare so much?'

I don't? I think it is a good thing. But to consider living on it by choice (the topic of this thread), rather than, say, by fortune, is entirely selfish.

I don't dispute that, but this is not the discussion?

You made it part of the dicussion by saying they have no sense of achievement

But to consider living on it by choice (the topic of this thread), rather than, say, by fortune, is entirely selfish.

It would be selfish to want to be there to bring up your child?

For the first part, most parents would want to provide for all the wants and needs of their children. Living on welfare out of choice may make it much more difficult to have children in the first place (enough to reconsider it), but not impossible. Certainly it would be more difficult to provide as much as you might want for your children.

I would say not having the choice to have children because of not working is a significant impact on a couple's freedom (just one example which I am surprised got a 'ROFL shut up'). Like I say, I am amazed you equate money so quickly to trivial things.

It would be selfish to want to be there to bring up your child?

Being paid welfare for bringing up a child is out of the mother's fortune to be able to provide, or not, based on her circumstances. In contrast, this thread is about claiming welfare instead of earning, by choice.

It's amazing that you immediately equate welfare-on-choice with selfishness -- there are many assumptions in that claim ;)

Within the context of this thread? I don't think so - even the author admits it.

there are even many assumptions in the use of the word selfishness -- what a stupid word btw, it can probably be traced back to some book-religion, where there are "good" and "bad"

but i guess you meant it like "egotism" here, which is something of interest i guess. but seriously, it lies in the human nature, the system as a whole has to fight it altogether, you can't force individual people to make choices for the greater good of humanity or w/e if its not in their best interest -- and as long as most people do what's best for humanity in their best interest and feel *comfy* with that, i don't see a problem if some people do not fit in that scheme. ofc, feel free to join the hategroup with words like selfishness to help scare citizens for away from making that "selfish" choice, but i'd rather convince them with logical arguments that agree with their best interest rather than point to something higher they should aspire to

Taking something which doesn't belong to you, or is not yours by the intention of the person who it belongs to, is not ethically sound. Doing this at the expense of others (or that no one other than yourself benefits from it), is selfish by definition.

Here's a tip; argue with this meaning of the word egotism, that definition of yours is ridiculously flawed, as is the word.

I think you mean rational selfishness rather than just egotism, and there is no rational selfishness in the context of this thread.

he seems quite rational to me, he seems like the kind of guy who would end up with a well-considered choice, even if it was the "selfish" one :)

what's with the family obsession?

I actually do enjoy my work 80% of time, I am a bit dissapointed in my salary but who isn't? I have plenty of opportunities to build my carreer and train myself constantly and even if I did not now is a very good opportunity to change jobs since economy is going strong.

I also own a nice and new appartment near the city centre built only 2 years ago,nice furniture, electonic gadgets etc etc. But this is not enough for many of us, no we need half more to be satisfied and then after that another half more. It never ends! Then when you got all of this you have so much to do that you dont even have time to enjoy this. The phone rings, again you gotto go do something you really don't want to do but you have to. Why? Well because it is nice and good manners or perhaps it is work related. Maybe you got money for attending to that "phone call" but will that money replace the few hours you spent? Which is better...2-4 hours of work / away from free time or a bit of extra cash which the goverment will tax to half....hehe. I guess the solution to this really is that the work you do must be something you really dont concider work.

Well...how do 6 billion people achieve that?

We're busting our asses out there each and everyday. Then some of us think - This is it, if I am greedy and ruthless and get all I want people will respect me...and they propably will atleast when they see my bank account slip which I accidently forget at the automat when I withdraw money.

If I had kids I would propably not think of this and concentrate in their needs but I think this topic is interesting. Personally I respect the working people but please share more of your views.

I think everyone wants a job he 100% likes to do. But tbh, I don't think that's possible to achieve for most people. You only got the choice (more or less) if you put in much effort in school. Your abilities have to be unique. That's the point where you are able to choose.
But unfortunateley, most people just can't choose. They have to do a job they don't like that much (or even hate it). I think it's good to have dreams, but I think most people can be happy if they got a job they are 'neutral' towards

Living on welfare is no option in the long run. Here in Germany, we have (had) a huge social backup. But this is more and more cut down. The money people living on welfare get is not very high. For many it's enough to live from it, but that's all. (Forget about cinema or buying new games for 50 bucks).

Not to mention the 'socializing factor'. As long as you are young it's not that hard to get to know new people. But imagine you are past 35 or 40.... If you are working (or school,university) you have in most cases people around you. (That's important, don't underestimate that!)

Just my opinion.

Well it's all about striking a balance, but I think it's safe to say that sitting on your ass all day playing computer games and living off state benefits is far from a healthy long term goal.

If someone perceives that as good long term future, then it's safe to say they are lacking perspective and are not in touch with normality.
Though such people often claim they're special and different they're actually just lazy cop outs. Or if they are genuine they are probably from areas which do not offer the opportunites they are interested in.

Working is not only important to your immediate society but to life it's self.
It gives people self respect.
money to do things.
Provides a service.

It's all very well wanting to be a free radical and somehow thinking you're above that, but if being above that means surviving on 50 odd quid a week or lying to the doctors (to gain more benefits/housing-like many people do) then such people will NEVER have anything.

Then again for some people low paid, medial jobs are in their eyes their only hope, so I can understand why some people adopt that mentality.

It depends on your standards really. I'm of the opinion that people are not equal., never have or will be, and no it's not really defined by colour.
Some people are naturally better than others.
Some have more drive, some are more intelligent, some are more ambitious. Some have more vision. Some are stronger, physically mentally. etc etc.
Those are words peeps don't to hear, but it's true.

It's all about hierachy, I could preach about how everyone should aim to get a good job, get paid well, get the self esteem that goes with it, but you have to accept that for a large % of people that will never be the case.
Unless you have physical/mental problems everyone is capable of earning good money and being happy in work and supporting themselves. FFS if you downloaded a copy of Dreamweaver and spent a year learning that inside out and learning how to build computers, you instantly become VERY employable and are looking at a good salary.

The only real difference is that some peeps don't have the drive to go after things and other do.

Doing 9-5 can be fkin bore, but if the work/management is rewarding then it's actually good.
If you don'r like being a wage slave then work for yourself, look at what you do enjoy and pursue that.

Doing nothing is the worst thing. I done it myself from time to time and it sucked every time, but I always took the opportunity to learn new stuff that I knew would broaden my options.

I know people who do shitty low paid jobs and are happier than people I know who live in high rise flats in canary Wharf and work in investment banks.
Everyone is different. One thing I do know is I don't know anyone who suruves on state benefits as a longeterm sole income who I would be able to take anything positive from.

It's such a suprise that you hold an elitist idea of society.

People are not equal, no, but to think that this is what society strives for is to completely miss the point. People are not equal, but their opportunities should be; if someone wants to become a politician, then they should have that opportunity, perhaps they will fail, perhaps they won't be the best, but that doesn't mean they should have the opportunity.

I guess in your version of the world, we'd have everyone with an IQ below 90 cleaning streets and pumping gas. Hmm, since you're a member of that catergory, perhaps it's not such a bad idea!

What I'm saying is all people have the opportunity to be equal, but some people are naturally better than others and such people tend to achieve where others fail.

If you or anyone else want's to be a politician then go do it.
No you don't need to be elitist, but were talking about someone who's considering sitting on his ass and sponging on handout's as a long term idea, which is basically one step away from being a tramp in my eyes. A little extreme, but if council/family etc stop giving you money, you don't eat, pay rent and where do you go from there.

Just don't whine to me for saying it how it really is.
Insult me with all the ill founded comments you want, your opinions and influence are too weak to have any kind of impact.

You imply that some people are born failures, that society will never function without those people, that it's neccessary to have menial workers who get paid very little. That's the most elitist assumption ever made.

Perhaps it's the way things are at the moment, and in the past, but isn't the whole point of democracy and goverment to attempt to progress society, to move past your particular idea of paradise? You seem to believe that your social position is gospel, and that people of lesser skill and talent can never surpass you, but isn't that the exact opposite to your top10 cpl theory?

I implied that SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN BETTER THAN OTHERS AND ARE NATURALLY ABLE TO ACHIEVE MORE .

i said nothing about them being failures. You just processed it that way to give yourself a false pedestal for a reply.

It's also age related too, if the guys like early-mid 20's it's natural to be up in the air over that sort of stuff.
So long as it's not a long-term ideal.

P.S.
Don't mention CPL or Q4. It's not appropriate.

Yeah I partially agree with you, but I'd rather not hate myself.

"I guess in your version of the world, we'd have everyone with an IQ below 90 cleaning streets and pumping gas"

It already is that way :\

I think your use of the word opportunity is misleading, it does not really matter what kind of, in an ultimate sense, opportunities people have; all people could have all the opportunities in the world in that meaning of the word.

You have to use the word more delicate, like:

2.a situation or condition favorable for attainment of a goal.
3.a good position, chance, or prospect, as for advancement or success.

No matter how "equal" society is, people will always be born with better or worse opportunities. What is left to do is to make sure that everyone reaches their own potential, not some universal potential. Everyone should be schooled/raised differently according to their needs. Treating everyone the same, as is very much done now, damages everyone that's different, and does not give people "equal opportunities to realise their own potential" which is what we should be focusing on.

That's correct, but my point is, if you have right qualities no matter how shitty your education or bg is you can rise above it and be successful. Some people have had awful lives and upbringing and go on to do amazing things.

Not through luck just by determination and hard work.

Yeah, that is a dreamers view; with potential and dedication you can do whatever you want. Unfortunately that is not the case, you need help, noone can succeede on their own in anything. You just have to stand on those giants shoulders if you are to reach where you can, and you want to know why? It's because your potential, in my view, is defined by using all the means available, and if those arn't there, then toooo bad -- you can't reach as high as you could've.

Depends on how high we're talking.

ATM i'm talking about doing enough in life so you don't feel compelled to go on benefits for the resf of your life. I'm pretty sure that's more than achievable by most people.

I'm not talking about working at Nasa, I'm just talking about a well paid respectable job.

That is far from dreaming.

True.. I was just furthering my original arugment ;)

do you have people pumping gas for you in england?

how old are u ? 16-18 ?
then i can understand you ...
but don't be afraid, if you get older, life gets boring and you want to work, you will want to do something.

What would you do with that time from 9-5 ?
-TV programm sux (sux anyway for a 30+ adult who has seen every thing, all "new" stuff is just a mix or a remake from old stuff)
- other friends/people work, so wait till 5
- spending time with ur girl ? if you get older, u dont wont to have sex all the time like at the age of 16-18

life sux and is boring without work :]

there is a nazi phrase that is actually true "Arbeit macht frei" (Work makes free)

Lol at knowing nazi' phrases:). "Work makes free" not a bad philosophy in my eyes.

I know what you mean but I wouldn't go around quoting that as your philosphy: they were the words inscribed over the gates at Auschwitz and other concentration camps, insidiously giving hope to those walking under them.

Nice bit of trivia!

without judging the phrase: almost every german who attended school knows that phrase because these are the letters who hung above the train-entry to auschwitz :-/

€: 3 hours late ... should read all the comments first =/

I had no Idea that I came out sounding so young, but actually I just turned 30 this year :-)

But thanks for the tips!

Shit man you better ring Oprah or something.

What for, I think you are much better :)

IM 17 AND ILL FUCK LIKE A BUNNY TILL I DIE :D

your typing is making me dizzy

we shud all just go back to ancient civilisation style
plot of land to grow crops and a sword and let the good times role!

good times

you were either born in the 10% of elites and lived like a king or you were born in the 90% of the common people and worked all your life only for the 10% to come and take your land, rape your family, kill you etc.

England for you :)

I've felt like you are describing for most of my working life, a lot people would say the same thing but it doesnt cut into them, it doesnt make them feel like a prisoner, they just get on with it by motivation via financial gain or their upbringing or maybe they know of no other way.
There are plenty of options like survivalism, buddhism, social welfarism :) etc or join the french foreign legion and let someone else do the decision making for you :). The first thing that you can get into your head is that you are free to do anything you want to do. You can walk up to your boss and say fuck you im off or you can just dissappear, its entirely up to you. Never make the mistake a non-family member gives a shit about you especially a work colleague.
Out of those few options i named above they all bring something different to bare. Survivalism brings you back to the basics in life of food shelter and water - the way every other animal on the planet does so in its natural environment. Buddhisms basic outlay is that life is suffering and buddhism teaches you to overcome this by reaching nirvana through the acceptance of life.
I'm not a buddhist or religious but i think psychologically buddhism is as good as it gets for humans.

just a small sidenote:

"Suffering is a big word in Buddhist thought. It is a key term and it should be thoroughly understood. The Pali word is dukkha, and it does not just mean the agony of the body. It means that deep subtle sense of unsatisfactoriness which is a part of every mind moment and which results directly from the mental treadmill. The essence of life is suffering, said the Buddha. At first glance this seems exceedingly morbid and pessimistic. It even seems untrue. After all, there are plenty of times when we are happy. Aren't there. No, there are not. It just seems that way. Take any moment when you feel really fulfilled and examine it closely. Down under the joy, you will find that subtle, all-pervasive undercurrent of tension, that no matter how great this moment is, it is going to end. No matter how much you just gained, you are either going to lose some of it or spend the rest of your days guarding what you have got and scheming how to get more. And in the end, you are going to die. In the end, you lose everything. It is all transitory."
Henepola Gunaratana, from 'Mindfulness in Plain English'.

I know what you mean but sujoy fracked up my thoughts by mentioning BSG, which is a fantastic series.

Anyway, all i know is that i have friends, im healthy have a job, money a roof over my head and i have no idea where im going in life. Should i throw this monotonous lifestyle away in search of something else, maybe

All i know is i feel trapped in todays society, and feel that somehow i'd be happier if we all went back to basics and lived of the land and built and lived in little wooden huts or something..

Just do whatever you want to do, if you don't want to do anything then why not just die? I mean, there has to be some things that keep you going in this world, find them, analyse them and figure out what greater goal they can be a part of. Then you just have to see what route in life will fulfill most of this goal, simple really.

Make life meaningful :)

good question and answers

here's a little story


A Carrot, An Egg and a Cup of Coffee

A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed as one problem was solved, a new one arose.

Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water and placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to boil. In the first she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs, and in the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil, without saying a word.

In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners.

She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl.

She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl.

Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl.

Turning to her daughter, she asked, "Tell me, what you see?"

"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied. Her mother brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots.

She did and noted that they were soft. The mother then asked the daughter to take an egg and break it.

After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard boiled egg. Finally, the mother asked the daughter to sip the coffee. The daughter smiled as she tasted its rich aroma. The daughter then asked, "What does it mean, mother?"

Her mother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity ... boiling water. Each reacted differently. The carrot went in strong, hard, and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened.

The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water, they had changed the water.

"Which are you?" she asked her daughter. "When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond?

Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?"

Think of this: Which am I? Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength? Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff? Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and hardened heart?

Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you. When the hour is the darkest and trials are their greatest, do you elevate yourself to another level? How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?

Now I know how the rest of you feel !!!

Sounds like something from The monk who sold his ferrari or any of the 100 other self-help books

By any coincidence are you the same tao tht made a cs movie?

yea everything's been said a million times before, and actually it is in 100's of selfhelp websites now that i google it, so well spotted. ;)
i thought it was decent advice on how to handle any situation youre in but to each their own i suppose...

nah only rtcw for me, maybe little warsow when it gets better.

I feel you. At the moment I`m still trudging towards my master`s and doing some work on the side to keep me alive and most of the time I can`t see any good reason to keep doing what I do.

On the other hand it feels pointless and more to do with social conditioning than actual hopes to aspire (in some pov :DDD ) to something, on the other if I`d just turn on, tune in and drop out I would probably feel the effects of the great "meh" again only several years later, having squandered my (slim) chances of getting a job that is interesting and rewarding. Money is not really an issue to me.

The solution imo would be something closer to a compromize (sp?) than a total "one or the other" choice, work should not impede on the standard of living, and the fault in this day and age is that people are mistaking (and taught to associate) financial status with standard of living "Buy new plasma tv 1500€" etc...


Here`s a good quote from Jim Haynes` book "Workers of the world unite and stop working"

A boat docked in a tiny Greek village. An American tourist complimented the Greek fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them.

"Not very long," answered the Greek.

"But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the American.

The Greek explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.

The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

"I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings I go into the village to see my friends, dance a little, play the bouzouki, and sing a few songs. I have a full life."

The American interrupted, "I have a MBA from Harvard and I can help you. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can the leave this little village and move to Athens, Los Angeles, or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge enterprise."

"How long would that take?" asked the greek.

"Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American.

"And after that?"

"afterwards? That's when it gets really interesting," answered the American, laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions!"

"Millions? Really? And after that?"

"After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta with your wife, and spend your evenings singing, dancing and playing the bouzouki with your friends."

Heh, thanks! What you quoted is really spot on in many ways. Good points otherwise too.

that quote is so goddamn spot on it hurts :)

classic story, still good!

probably the earliest version that has survived the teeth of time is in
Parallel Lives by Plutarch.
The Life of Pyrrhus

hehe, most people have to reach the top to realise that ;D

To say it with Jamie Foxx's words: I. Love. This. Job.

If I didnt work in graphic design, if I had no job, I'd be pretty busy with other things, training, teaching people martial arts, make maps, videos, websites. I'd entertain myself very well. But with the job I have now, I just shift my attention over to some other additional areas and leave some activities a little more in the background. And I get paid just for that attention shift.

The best part though is that my work actually is of use to other people. And it satisfies me to finish some work and pull through even when sometimes it's just hard work and not very creative. This 'relevance' of my work also automatically justifies working "longer hours" as some call it. It's just worth it.

And that's where the suckers come in. And I start having less and less tolerance for them. The suckers have no drive, complain about everything, no job, no good job, I wanna quit this job, I've been studying the wrong subject for 8 semesters, I dont enjoy this, what's it all for, why do I have to work longer, why do I have to carry down the trash from the office, this is not what I deserve. LOL is all I can do at that, and shake my head.

It's a given fact that people are getting lazier and suckier all the time. It's very observable in recreational sports clubs, young people join and leave as soon as the slightest resistance shows up or "oh I'm just sitting at home so relaxed and thinking I'd rather not come training, I'm so lazy you know" BULLSHIT

People who are bored are idiots.

Or you could say it is these suckers who might be seeking to change something in themselves or the surroundings by their complaining. In your eyes they might be losers whining about their incompetence or lazyness.

What if nobody ever complained or had no reason to?

Everything in our daily work is fine and We.Love.Our. Jobbs. I think we might find ourself throwing rocks at eachother or perhaps we would not even have crawled out of that pond since there would be no motivation to change anything because everything is just fine.

I think this world develops because we recognise the need for change and whine or complain because we are not satisfied. If I wake up one day completely satisfied about everything I might not get out of bed at all.

Having low expectations, no drive to accomplish something and therefore being "content" with the situation and not whining is different from not whining and actually doing sth worthwhile.

Change doesnt require whine, it requires action.

Whine is completely unnecessary, make your complaints constructive, work sth out, dont just say "this sucks" but fucking suggest a better solution and work on it becoming a reality. Everything else is, as I mentioned, bullshit.

I disagree, I think other peoples whining or complaining can be the nudge needed for someone else to start acting and reacting ( just so they do not have to hear that damn whining again )

Maybe their drive is the moaning and whining but we just see differently :)

Imo change does at first need unsatisfaction which easily bursts out first as complaints, then follows action.

Ah well....bla bla me :)

Yeah, "waking up" is essential, agreed. But now one should be careful to turn it into something positive, into real change. This will invariably take some effort and I'm afraid that's where people stop "moving" with their dissatisfaction (does that word exist?).

Good stuff, I love it how you, after ranting how dozens of things including people having a will is beyond your comprehension, call someone else an idiot.

At least I didnt call you one? :D

It is not beyond my comprehension, I'd also love to sit at home and eat cookies all day, but fuck me if building and creating something with my own energy and mind isnt way more satisfying.

Just because you are satisfied where you are does not mean that everybody else has it so or are coming from the very same premises. Yes, I think it is beyond your comprehension. And your attitude does not seem to be shifted towards understanding but rather feeling good about yourself in comparasion to others by calling them suckers and idiots.

I think you need to re-read my answer, I can perfectly understand the attitude, just not the reaction to their environment, which is marked of passivity and non-action. If you aren't happy with where you are, change sth and more importantly do sth, that's all I say. The people I call idiots are those who only whine and feel they've done enough with just saying their opinion that their situation sucks. People who whine but also act clearly dont fall in that category, not hard to understand.

So in a way you are saying, if you are displeased about somthing you must earn your right to whine by in example, by doing some physical act? If so, we disagree, because I think even mistargeted, mindless whining, is still an act of doing sth towards your cause. This also makes it hard to define, how much you have to do in order to earn this right, if I wear a chestpin am I then free to whine? Also, the one who always does more than the other, can the one who does most say to the others that you are not doing enough and therefore you should be quiet?

"So in a way you are saying, if you are displeased about somthing you must earn your right to whine by in example, by doing some physical act?"
"This also makes it hard to define, how much you have to do in order to earn this right, if I wear a chestpin am I then free to whine?"

You dont have to earn anything IMO, you're a free person. But acting on it would definitely not make you (not you personally) look like an obnoxious bum who just likes to be the victim of the oh so cruel "society".

"If so, we disagree, because I think even mistargeted, mindless whining, is still an act of doing sth towards your cause."

Yes, we disagree :)

"Also, the one who always does more than the other, can the one who does most say to the others that you are not doing enough and therefore you should be quiet?"

I dont think the one who "does most" should tell him to be quiet but rather tell him to act. I guess he has that authority, yes. Sometimes you need to kick some people's asses to get them onto a good path. It's the business of fitness trainers as well as military instructors and more common elements like school and education.

"You dont have to earn anything IMO, you're a free person. But acting on it would definitely not make you (not you personally) look like an obnoxious bum who just likes to be the victim of the oh so cruel "society"."

So are u suggesting that one should not do something just because of the fact that someone from afar and not knowing this person would plain discriminate this person from the looks of it, just like u did in your first post. These people "like" to be victims of the society? For that matter, I don't see "royalty" or children of a businessmen or many children in the western society really working for their parents' wealth either (thank god). If they are not victims of the society howcome one person does only get breadcrums and hardly even that and another is living in overwealth?

"I dont think the one who "does most" should tell him to be quiet but rather tell him to act. I guess he has that authority, yes. Sometimes you need to kick some people's asses to get them onto a good path. It's the business of fitness trainers as well as military instructors and more common elements like school and education."

Well why aren't you personally working harder? You could be also acting with that time you spend telling others to act. You are also an obnoxious bum to someone, maybe that "noble" person who works 16 hours.

I dont understand your first paragraph to be honest. And about the second paragraph, it doesnt relate to what I talked about. My point is simply that whining and not taking action is bullshit. If you whine and at the same time work on changing your life or the symptoms of what makes you whine, that's ok. That is all my opinion of course. You also missed the point with that 16 hours comment. It's not about how much you work at all. It's all about the whining and ranting of people at work or without work, those standard phrases of lazy bums who cant get anything done. Who're in the wrong job since forever, who cant get a job because everyone else wants him to fail, and thus make everyone listen to their justification.

You make some valid points but you can't be as black and white about things in practice. For you to live the lifestyle you currently live multiple people somewhere else have to live shitty lives/do shitty jobs. That's a fact of capitalism in a world where we depend upon non-renewable resources. Just be grateful you get the opportunity to love your job/life.

I'm not grateful. I work friggin' hard for those "privileges", there's nobody who I have to thank for my work ethic and performance. I'm grateful for being healthy and grateful towards my parents, but especially the healthy part is requiring a hard work ethic as well.

funny how you make up a stereotype for people you don't like.. funny thing is, where do you find these people? and if you so happen to find one of these people you have stereotyped, what's really behind all that when you look deeper?

you say they use words like "deserve" yet you use the word "worth" as if somehow objective?

I'm usually not bored and can't personally understand how you can design your life in such a way as to be bored, but idiots? maybe some random quotes can give some other thoughts

“The word aerobics comes from two Greek words: aero, meaning "ability to," and bics, meaning "withstand tremendous boredom”

“Boredom is the feeling that everything is a waste of time; serenity, that nothing is.”

“The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.”

“In order to live free and happily, you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.”

“Procrastination avoids boredom; one never has the feeling that there is nothing important to do”

“Your true traveller finds boredom rather agreeable than painful. It is the symbol of his liberty - his excessive freedom. He accepts his boredom, when it comes, not merely philosophically, but almost with pleasure.”

The whine-but-dont-act stereotype is frighteningly accurate. I dont base this on just one person I met but observed this over years.

"where do you find these people?"

Started pretty early in sports related activities, then at uni and after that at work. I try to keep away from those people but when they affect my life and my work, I call them idiots.

can't say i have seen them. of the people i don't like, i label some "false", some stupid, and others non-thinking ;)

"can't say i have seen them"

lucky you then... :/

dunno what to make of your second sentence tbh

seems like some people don't think at all, they just do stuff. non-reflective perhaps better word. stupid are the ones who, well, they can think alot but it's wasted thinking, because they think in stupid patterns or whatever. the "false" ones are the ones that seem like they prefer to live in ignorance and solidly believes things that they may deep down know is false. this may have been a bit crude as i just now tried to summarize this pattern i seem to follow, but i think it has some truth as to how i classify people ;)

I see now. I just slice those crowds much broader: those who bother me and are able to influence my life negatively, those who just keep the system working but dont hurt anyone and I can avoid and finally those who simply are fucking idiots. Pretty black and white view but life is short, cant be friends with everyone.

The second area is the biggest one, the system working ppl just go after their lives, do their job, tune their car, go to choir meetings, have terrible taste, dont ever intend to soar above mediocrity, have their life plan laid out since they're 15. They're just not my kind of people but they're mostly cool anyway.

There's a special condition though that balances out things: passion. I generally distrust a person who doesnt show passion for a certain activity or subject. Those people almost automatically have that spark, this energy. That's what life's about IMO, cultivate that extra spark that makes us humans unique - no matter how purposeful the activity. Dont mistake this with being a pc/photo/car/etc geek though, a geek only knows a lot about a certain topic, that's not the same as passion.

Would be interesting to know exactly where you divide between those with passion and those with passions that are.. unworthy?

Carmack, Hawking, Mozart, Schumacher -- all geeks in their own right, these people seem to me to have lived up to their potential, and you can't really claim more from people, can you? Maybe i misunderstood you.

Yeah while I wrote it I realized it's a tricky definition.

I'd remove the pc/photo/car list and just narrow it down to "knowledge vs passion". But actually that's not entirely correct either, because knowledge, when it reaches and passes a certain point as you become a real expert, will probably automatically be based on passion.

What just doesnt work (literally) is people who dont care about what they do. That's the worst thing that can happen.

If you arent completely stupid, you will always succeed at things when you really deeply care and love them. You can learn and reach the highest levels just by loving to do it. Some of the greatest minds are self-taught. This just doesnt work without passion, I'm sure of it.

I dont think any passion is unworthy. Some things I cant understand, like guys tuning their ricers and putting huge sound systems in. But hey, I'm not the standard here, I just complain when they affect me as in driving by with the music blaring in the middle of the night :P

:)

"What's the point?"

The human race is interdependant, and everybody makes their own contribution, even bums.

For example, by working a 9-5 job at Sainsbury's you could be helping a therapist get food, which means they can do their job of helping you deal with issues like this :)

The bottom line is that what goes around comes around. If everyone chose to start bumming (er... you know what I mean) there would be no one to make food, shelter etc., is that what you want?

That was a joke about the therapist thing by the way, I was just trying to be clever.

What's wrong with being gay you homophobic piece of shit

lol you've been calling people "fags" in this thread.

go look up what a 'fag' actually is fag (ill give you a hint if it says american slang youre looking in the wrong place) stop being a fat ignorant moron

then again you're french and prolly too arogant to look

And then again I'm not fat.

well, i'd rather try and fail at something i'll enjoy (and keep on trying, job or hobby, or money making scheme ;)) than sit on benefits. sure its easier, but its no fun.

Life is not a game, but if u treat certain aspects of it as one then u learn to play the system and make things work for YOU rather than the other way round :)

ye jamerio..

everywhere i look in my town i see 6.4' polish ppl going for vodka... and lidl.. and it only holds 40,000 or so :)

not to diss the poles like :p

Just a caviat to what Jamerio was saying his lines about the UK being grosely over populated is true but it ouwldn't be if we would just build more housing and farm in an effective manor. To also rebute his point about immigrant workers in the UK, when I was at college I used to work as a manager at a Fresh food factory (salads that sort of thing). We couldn't find enough English staff yet it was the immigrants who were filling out our ranks.

Speaking of the Poles who came to the UK they are hard working and skilled, the bring skills in practical trades and are often very over qualified for the positions they at first hold, I guess Jam votes BNP and as such is probably a racist without knowing it. Anyone in the UK who says they cant find a job is either lieing or views the jobs out there as "beneath" them. Ask yourself why most people who are out of work wont take low skilled jobs? they have a preconception that because immigrants work said jobs that they shouldn't have to.

If it it wasn't for the influx of foreign nurses, builders and other such important people our NHS would have collapesd by now so your argument about them being a strain on the welfare state is BS. I have studied this indepth and you can argue till blue in the face you need to go argue with the Job Centre census that most (some where in the region of 98%) of immigrants pay tax and actually contribute to society while the talent we have in the UK is limtted toi say the least. Our youth thinks they are intitled to £40,000 a year or it isn't worth getting of their arses. In short Jamerio = uninformed kthanksbai.

Blah blah blah, I said MEDIAL jobs. Doctors nurses etc are all fine.
Perhaps you could not find staff becasue you were paying them peanuts and the influx of cheap labour means super markets can continue to pay a pittance to such jobs?

Just as british companies do when they outsource call centre work to India?
Why do they do that?
For efficiency or for $$$?
I don't see what's so efficient about me being put through to someone X thousand miles away whome I cannot understand. So it's all about profit, without thinking of the outcome.

There comes a point when business's have to stop taking the piss.
What next, get prisoners in shackles to undercut manual labour workers?

The people of the UK have a right. they have their whole lives here and most will have to life here forever and that includeds buying into out stupidly priced housing.
As a result they need to earn decent money. If companies like the one you work for use poor Europeans, then guess what happens?
The people of this country start to become poor becasue they can't compete. Against some euro who in his eyes is earning a fortune and wroks his ass off until he's got what he wants (money) then fucks off. those changes don't benefit in the long run.

it's a one sided investment at a lowest level and the people from the UK on the low level end up going on benefits for life and becoming the biggest of problems.

I notice oy upost under alias too. Are you an immigrant too.
Very easy to make a point when you're not showing all your cards.

hahah yeah those damn east europeans coming here and making wasters like you poor dont like it get the fuck out of the country and go somewhere like china or vietnam. you may not have noticed at all but silly nationalistic pride and caring about borders is gradually becoming a "who gives a shit" issue and idiot poor prols like you are going to have to accept it and find your place or live a shit life.

oh yeah and for an immigrant he seems to be doing pretty well having a broadband connection and all. jamerio sets mode +idiot

Yeah people post anonymous and you are an immigrant and quite possibly a terrorist. Sign up for ESR today.