Well i cant make it skip, but dunno if it reaches 150 inches sec though. But try as i might - cant make it skip.

i know rapha uses it and still devistates.

i thought rapha uses a WMO, no?

not anymore

Dubai he used WMO. I saw pictures.

apparently he switched.

i havent try it myself, but according my classmates(cs nerds), the mouse wasnt that good as they tought.

awesome except for slight positive acceleration and side buttons

pretty much my experience but I like the side buttons allthough I don't use them that much

that's odd and also quite upsetting as their product information states that anything like positieve accel could be turned off or at least pixel perfect translation to the cursor / game..

skips for me on my goliathus speed.

There are hardly any reviews on it anywhere, and no gamers I know have one. I guess everyone is waiting for a positive review before they buy, if they buy at all.

I wish someone would post a review.

go here

http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&...pid1777660

I suppose you could also imsg lunatic he says in that thread that he ordered one.

same sensor as g9x? im loving the g9x

like yuka ?

steelseries are such nincompoops

they took a proven sensor (avago 9500) and combined it with a proven shape (wmo) and still managed to fuck it up somehow with their awful firmware

If i may ask, how did they fucked up the xai?

positive accel. also my PC crashes when the mouse is plugged in. lovely stuff

i have the Kinzu,
latest software fixes all the sensor problems
but it still has Prediction/Correctionn and cant be turned off.
and the feet are awful they dont glide at all on the QcK mousepads.

please explain how software can fix a shit sensor?

please explain how you test your sensor without the delivered software.

I mean I know that is possible, but I didn't know anyonehere does it.

what I said about you and thinking before writing, I meant it.

so?
Please explain why you don't take your own advice.

When you evaluate a mouse you always test teh combination of hardware and software. If either is crap obviously the results will be crap.

The only way which part fails is to test them individually. So to be certain it is the sensor that's bad someone has to have used some sort of hardware test.

And I would like to know what that looked like.


But, looking at your response it is more likely that you were just drawing random conclusions instead of trying to understand technology.


Try to think next time, please ;)

"When you evaluate a mouse you always test teh combination of hardware and software. If either is crap obviously the results will be crap."

software can affect pointer ballistics, things like positive/negative accel, pixel skipping and such, but it does not affect things which have to do with raw sensor input, such as loss of tracking on fast movements. to simplify it for the technologically challenged, you can not force a sensor who's hardware limit is X pics per second to take 2X pics per second or remove hardware based bottlenecks via software.

you have no clue about technology, hence my advice about thinking before writing.

to simplify it for the technologically challenged, you can not force a sensor who's hardware limit is X pics per second to take 2X pics per second or remove hardware based bottlenecks via software.

yes, but you can program your software to only use one tenth of the pics, can't you?
So that would mean that the sensor is limited through the software. (Which might just be some programming error that go fixed now)
You sometimes even do that intentionally. For example always when you use an analogue sensor in a digital system. Which I did with my robot ;)


But please go on with your explanations, it's always amusing when amateurs try to explain control engineering. Most don't even know the difference between an open-loop and a closed-loop control :]

"yes, but you can program your software to only use one tenth of the pics, can't you?"

oh so that's steelseries grand plan? hey let's make our mouse use 10th of its capability so it looks like total garbage just so we can correct it with software when everyone gives up on it. makes sense

picturing you doing anything technical makes me cringe.

Jesus, you really are slow.

I even wrote that it is a possible error. Just need to move a dot in a number and that's it.
Correcting that is what people call "fixing".
It why we have those funny things called patches and updates.

Well, I am really glad that you (obviously) can't have much to do with technology, because your approach is as wrong as it gets.

You never try to work methodically analyze a complete system, indentify the components and their relationships.
Instead you just seem to pick one thing you think might be bad and go with it.
Sometimes you chose that correct one, sometimes the wrong one. But your trademark is that you always chose, even if you don't know any details.

Also trying to evaluate my general knowledge of sensors and their input/output control is really funny. Seeing that I think only one of us learned and uses that stuff ;)

I'm saying you don't know shit about mouse sensors, you can go ahead and act like an expert all you want philosphying and generalizing about 'sensors', the fact is you're a muppet who tries to teach about things you know nothing about. I guess it's some sort of complex, after all it took you 15 yrs to finish a simple university.

"15 years"

well that pretty much shows your approach to any knowledge.
I mean I'm 29 now, but sure since you "know" it took me 15 years it must be right.

Same here, youre lack even the basic knowledge but still consider yourself able to judge. Every moron can see how that can't work.
I bet you didn't even realize that I never said it couldn't be the sensor's fault.

I can tell you something though, with your approach to identifying problems you wouldn't ever have finished university in any technical subject.

it was a sarcastic remark, you dolt. oh my bad, it only took you 10 years. congratulations.

and just for the record, it took me 4 years to get my masters. in a technical subject. but since you say it's impossible I'll go ahead and burn my diploma now.

not 10 years, either. Wanna keep guessing?


And yeah I'd appreciate it if you did, someone who thinks an optical sensor is digital should better work in something else...

"And yeah I'd appreciate it if you did, someone who thinks an optical sensor should better work in something else... "

like teaching people english over the internet? yea, that could work.

edited.


good to see you have stopped arguing about technical things though :)

Uh, optical sensors used in mice ARE digital. Do you call TFT LCDs analog? Yes, it depends on an analog system to interface with the outside world, but the DSP is what defines it.

yes, we'be been over that.
There are however other optical sensors that are analogue (just the sensoric part)

and no, I would not call a tft analogue, and I have no idea why you would use that as an analogy...

yes you idiot we've been over this. becks knows everything about everything, in case he ever writes something stupid he is just testing us. he used to build robots for pete sake. and sensors. SENSORS MAN!

wow 29 and still have matured yet? ya there is no future for humanity....

mature people are boring.


But I'm sorry to shatter your hopes that you might grow up eventually.

"Controls engineering" is really not applicable to optical mice in any meaningful sense. Making an optical mouse is (electrically) a digital design/integration and minor firmware challenge. I'd have to guess you've never read a datasheet for an optical mouse sensor or a USB microcontroller, because you're dropping EE terms just for the sake of saying them.

"yes, but you can program your software to only use one tenth of the pics, can't you?"

I cant handle your logic. Elaborate please?

you get an input of 1000 pics per second. But the software only processes 100 per second.

Sure, it's not a smart thing to do, but it "could" happen, by some technical limitation or by mistake.

yea I mean mouse software programmers must handle a 1000 parameters I'm sure the possibility of coding 1/10th of pics to be processed is really high.

did you ever notice that you tend to pull out probabilities whenever you can't find something wrong?

did you notice you can't substantiate anything you say, ever?

nope, but I did notice that you think convincing you is necessary to substantiate anything. And if you don't feel like being convinced, substantiating becomes an impossibility.

Why are we having this conversation? It will lead nowhere.

nihilism is not an answer.

in your case it's an approach.

Minor details such as the strength of the light (can reduce or increase liftoff distance) can make a difference in a sensors ability to track at high speeds across different surfaces. Since the sensor controller is usually fully programmable, a lot of things related to tracking can be fixed with firmware updates. Top speed on the original G5 was improved through firmware updates. Even though the G9x and Xai share the same sensor, there are quite a few who have had problems with the Xai, which is most likely due to the way the sensor controller was programmed in the firmware versions they had. If it was impossible to do anything about loss of tracking in fast movements, all these differences between different firmwares/control programs would not make a difference. In short, becks is correct on this one.

how many mice that skip as easily as kinzu do you know that were completely corrected via firmware updates?

also if you care to search for it go ahead and find other mice with the kinzu sensor, see if those are any good.

Upping the max speed tracking limit to a certain point would be would be fixing it, which it seems they have done according to GreenMeanie's post. Point me to another mouse that uses the same sensor that the kinzu uses with a normal led instead of laser,

first of all kinzu is not a laser mouse, so much about your knowledge... I don't know which sensor it uses except that skips like a mother. I agree with you that upping light strength can affect the ability of the sensor to read cerain surfaces better or increase the lift-off distance but can not make the sensor read more pics/s.

second, I have never so far encountered a mouse that skipped really bad on all surfaces (like the kinzu does) that was fixed with a firmware update. ever. feel free to find examples of the opposite tho, I'm open to arguments.

i would like to add that my kinzu tracks fine on my Roccat Sota.
not really tried on my QcK because the mouse doesn't glide on it.
but for me it tracks fine.

( 800cpi, 500hz , 6 windows 2.2 in-games )

only problems what i stated before are the feet and correction/prediction.

I'm glad you think your mouse works, I just happen to trust this guy and this guy more in these matters. specifically because they actually tested the mouse properly and filmed it. he also claims that the new firmware doesn't fix it.

so either they're full of shit, or you're full of shit, or you have a new batch of kinzu with fixed hardware.

if you send me a camera i will make a review just for you to show you in tracks fine on my Roccat sota.

when did you buy your mouse btw?

23rd Nov

did you have any problems with when you bought it?

i dont know i installed the latests drivers once i plugged it in

then you can hardly say the latest software fixes all sensor problems can you? for all you know the mouse could've been good out of the box.

touche
but all im saying is the Kinzu i have with the latest drivers works fine on my Roccat Sota and i have no problems.

glad to hear that. hopefully steelseries decided to clean up their act and released a proper mouse. I'd still wait for more proper reviews before buying tho.

can not make the sensor read more pics/s.

lol

here's a fun term for you Mr. mouse sensor pro: analogue.

here's another term I know you won't find so fun: evidence.

go find me mice that skipped and lost tracking on all surfaces and were fixed by a software update. hf looking!

so you demand that this has happened before to admit it's possible?

lol.

No known cheater has ever faked as shub before, therefore it's certain yuka didn't.

I have dozens of examples for the opposite. yet you who claim it's possible have no example to confirm it. funny how that works.

no you dimwit, you don't.

you are saying it's impossible to make a mouse skip through software alone.
I said both a sensor and the software can be responsible.

If you want to exclude a cause you have to prove that it can never occur. Not the other way round.


So again, in very simple terms especially for you, please answer with yes or no:

If I set the software to use on pic per second, will the mouse skip?

hahahahah this is the final proof you're stupid and not worth discussing with. hf

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1795414#pid1795414

ok, I take it all back.

Someone wrote something on the internet. That certainly makes it impossible to write crappy software...

"ok, I take it all back."

at least you realized you were embarrassing yourself, so I guess we're making progress.

if that's what you want to believe go right ahead.

We have already established that nothing, not even facts, can change your opinions.

oh you mean like all the facts you provided in this thread?

"not even"

think about what that phrase implies.

But if you want to discuss something you should really answer this yes or no question first:
"If I set the software to use on pic per second, will the mouse skip?"

Or do you lack the technical understanding to do so?

why would I answer a question unrelated with the topic of the thread? you are obviously unable to read. here I'll post it one last time, I suggest you read it carefully, and think before writing:

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1795414#pid1795414

now, do you want to post some facts or you want to continue writing unrelated crap?

well some person wrote that the sensor is crap and that the reason couldn't possibly be the software.

I asked him how he knew that it has to be the sensor and how he tested it.
I even gave a simpistic example how a badly written software can theoretically limit even the most perfect sensor that is connected to a very high frequency adc.
He completely failed to deliver anything to substantiated his "shit" sensor theory except for post on a forum and his personal assumptions.


And now he is even going on that the new mouses might be fixed, without even trying to validate if any part of the sensor was changed.

here are some facts:

1. all prior mice show that tracking problems on all surfaces couldn't be fixed by a software update. one latest example: Razer Mamba
2. you claim it's possible in theory ( which I never disagreed with )
3. naturally you provide no evidence for this specific case

so you see dear becks, I deal with facts and logic, you deal with presumptions and theory. to each his own I guess.

lol, still demanding evidence for a theoretical possibility. But maybe that's the way they do it in Croatia, I don't know.


But here's something fun for you to find out,

some guy seems to think the mouse might be good out of the box

So, shouldn't you be finding out if they changed the sensor? Because if they didn't and it's good with the same sensor they have always used, that does make you look a bit like a moron, doesn't it?

hey why don't we just end this and ask someone with a proven malfunctioning Kinzu to update to the latest software. see what happens. whadaya say?

I never said is HAS to be the software.

You were the one that said it was the shit sensor. So prove it or shut up.

hahahahahahahahhaa I so knew this was going to happen.

yeah, me too.

You really should stop writing bad statements and clinging to them ;)

you're so afraid of the real world when I actually offer you the chance to make me look like a fool and you decline it. guess you rather stick with your vague theories and presumptions eh?

why would I want to make you look like a fool?
You are doing a fine job all by yourself.


I mean you even go for that classic last resort: "You may be right, but I have a real life" :P

I offer you a chance to test your theory in practice, you decline. nuff said.

Not really.

Yes, with a normal person, one could just check if it is the software's fault. If it is the theory is verified, if it isn't nothing changes, the theory stays just as valid.

With you on the other hand, you would see that as proof the theory is wrong. Even though that makes no sense at all.

I mean you still behave as if I said that the sensor can't be shit. Which I didn't, in fact my first reply was to ask how you knew it was shit.

And well, you made it clear that you based that "knowledge" solely on the fact that some people moved the mouse around. There are even other technological possibilities for a bad mouse, like sensor placement of bad manufacturing precision that have nothing to do with the quality of the sensor itself.


If you really work in a technical field, and this is your approch to finding the source of malfunctions, it might be wise to start looking for a different job...

oh I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about a mouse model Kinzu from the manufacturer Steelseries. but I guess all this time you were arguing semantics? sure it's possible that it's software, it's also possible that it's a lightning strike or a distorsion in a magnetic field or possibly a glitch in a time space continuum that can fix the mouse. I give your theory 0.01% chance of being correct in this specific case. sorry I didn't mention it in my original statement with other plausible possibilities.

also in my line of work I find the source of the problem by testing the most probable hypothesis first. In practice. that's practice, as in FACT, reality. you on the other hand make up a theory, and won't even care to test it. interesting approach.

uhm, I said I wouldn't test it with you in any case. But obviously I also lack the means to test it. Which is why I won't jump to conclusions.

But please, go ahead, test your theory about the kinzu that apparantly is 99,9% certain, way more than I would attribute to mine.

I'm waiting. Or are you scared you might be wrong?

if you weren't such a muppet, you'd realize that testing my theory and testing your theory is the same test. but I guess you're too busy arguing bullshit to realize that. :D

oh really?

My case would test if the software is bad, if it isn't there are other possibilities of what might be wrong, it's not necessarily the sensors fault. Since my theory was never "It must be the software" I wouldn't be wrong.

Your case would be to test if the sensor is bad. If it isn't you were wrong. Of course, that doesn't mean the software is bad, it could be something else.


Also, you just say youself you would test the hypothesis that has the highest probability, and that seems to be yoursSo go for it already. Or did your own approach suddenly become bad?



btw, if that is really you approach at work, I do agree with it However, I somehow doubt it involves you saying: "The XXX is shit." and test it afterwards. ;)

"My case would test if the software is bad, if it isn't there are other possibilities of what might be wrong, it's not necessarily the sensors fault"

and how exactly would you test that?

Hey, you said I could test it easily and prove it wrong ;)
I simply said it's possible the software or other reasons are the case.

But it doesn't really matter, does it? Since your test should be done first anyways.

And that test is really, really easy.

Apparantly the mouse works now. So, you only have ot find out that the changed the sensor. Go for it!!!

haha it is easy, but you apparently have no idea how to test your own hypothesis. you know however your test is different than mine. interesting

just stop being afraid go find out if they changed the sensor ;)



Oh and just for fun, tell me my hypothesis regarding the reason for bad performances by the kinzu again. Because it seems you still have trouble to understand that one.

so now you agree that my test will test your hypotesis as well. ok that's progress. when it turns out to be hardware, your theory will still stand, just with a few percentages less, right? :)

it would test it partly, yes, but not completely.
Simply put, your test would not disprove my hypothesis. In fact, no test can ;)
Wait a second, do you actually think that if they changed the sensor that would mean nothing else could have been wrong and be fixed? Hahaha, I think you did :]


So, why don't you just go ahead and see if you at least were somewhat correct. Or did you already do that and are you now afraid to share the result?

yea your hypothesis is that it could be one thing but also something else. esentially your hypotesis and mine are the same only I put a very small percentage on software update since hey, it would be the first time in history. :)

sorry to disappoint you, but your first take on the matter was clearly that is a "shit sensor".

But I'm glad to see you are coming around and accepting that other causes are possible (Yes, I did see that you did so a few comments prior to this one).


So, I guess now is the time to break this up, cause apprantly you can't be arsed to look if the sensor really is not good enough.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1795458#pid1795458
"or remove hardware based bottlenecks via software."

so no it's not just sensor but in terms of a layman discussion sensor = insides of a mouse.

ah, so your layman's discussion is the reason why you wanted to give a pic/s rating to an analogue sensor, you included the adc. :)


But accusing me of knowing nothing of technology based on that layman's approach seems a little weird ...

wat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)#Optical_mice
"Changes between one frame and the next are processed by the image processing part of the chip and translated into movement on the two axes using an optical flow estimation algorithm."

oh so now the processor chip is not part of the sensor assembly? and of course has unlimited fps processing capability? my bad..

and here I thought you wanted to discuss this on a technical level. But sure, bring up wiki, the most reliable source on earth...

The actual sensoric part is basically a camera that films continuously. Then you need an adc to get discrete values (I heard you like wiki ). Those values are then processed.

Sure if you want you can call the whole mouse a sensor, it's just a little ... imprecise.

Why should you need an adc with an IAS which allready takes digital images.

Usually mouse sensors are chip-on-board packages: IAS takes pictures, which are proccesed by the (internal) DSP, then it sends the delta X/Y to the external MCU.

shhht, I wanna see if tourist knows it, he is after all the mouse sensor specialist around here.

I mean he did post the wiki link, where they don't cover this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)#Optical_mice

instead of postin something like this:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/25/255889_1.pdf
or this:
http://www.iammp.org/design/files/h2000.pdf
or this:
http://www.smartcomputing.com/articles/archiv....pdf?guid=

hey, don't drag me into your discussion, I don't chose sides. ;)

and to be clear, I'm the mouse sensor expert here ^^ :p :D

sorry. I honestly didn't expect anyone to read that crap.


But since you are here: Do you know whether the kinzu now works well and if it was the sensor that caused it?

:D

I don't comment the Kinzu much cause I don't have one yet, that's also why I don't talk with my contact at SS about the Kinzu much (the Kinzu isn't his project anyway).

afaik a part of the problem is the "optimized" LOD, especially if you use additional mouse feet

so you got owned, tried to pull the most pathetic strawman of all (wikipedia) when you got slammed by someone with a clue again. jesus I almost feel sorry for you now.

you pulled wikipedia and were making it more than obvious you had no actual clue.

I mentioned the ADC twice an analogue optical sensor at least once.
You never caught on.

But sure, you are the technical expert here. lol.

the "wikipedia is incorrect" is the pathetic strawman, not wikipedia itself. how dense are you?

for all you know it could have been me that wrote that article.

There is a reason wiki is not accepted as a source for anyone who works scientifically.


GEDDIT NOW????

oh feel free to point out where the article I posted is wrong. (this will be awesome)

So, basically you are saying, to be sure a wikipedia is correct one only has to know everything that is written there before reading.

Great.

Much sense to posting that link then, is it?



Nah then fun part is that I tried to push you way earlier to talk about the sensor, then you could have posted some adequate link, and we could have taked about the frames per second of the sensor and whether it's high enough for adequate measurements.
But you ignored that completely, demanding evidence for a hypothesis, instead. (Which I think you later did agree may be somewhat pointless).

Anyway, that lack of a direct reply (e.g. Tourist: "Sensors or modern mice are not analogue you moron") raised my suspicion you might not know what you were talking about and I decided to bring that up again. I wonder how long it would have taken you to find a correct link if bullveyr hadn't been bored enough to actually read these replies ;)

But yeah, now you will probably go on about how I've been owned etc., yadda, yadda.

Despite the fact that bullveyr hinted that it seems like the cause wasn't the pics/s or a "shit" sensor (I specifically mean the sensoric part here, not it's placement.)



So, I think this is mpretty much my longest reply in this thread, so that should be a fitting end.

so you can't say where it's wrong. how unexpected.

I can tell you that they don't mention the IAS which in results in not needing an adc.

Which is why I wrote "not cover" instead of "is wrong".

But to your low standards that's probably all semantics :P

you can't read so I will write this slowly.
where...is...the...article...from...wikipedia...wrong?

you can't read so I'll write it slowly:

Where ... did ... I .... say ... it .... is ... wrong?

"There is a reason wiki is not accepted as a source for anyone who works scientifically. "

So?

Are you telling me it's an accepted source wherever you went to university?

In the meantime, please tell me where I wrote that that specific article is wrong or shut up about it.

why did you write it then? oh I forgot you write unrelated crap just to get called on it so you can say AHA I R TESTEH U!!1 brilliant

because the reason you can't use wiki at university is because it is unreliable you dimwit.

unreliable.

If I wanted I could take soe wiki account and change the artical you linked, then what?


But we digress. Where did I say the article is wrong. Or do you admit you were just imagining things?

oh so now it's unreliable. excellent. please point to the part of the article I quoted that is unreliable.

wow you really suck at reading.

and that discussion class you took, ask for your money back.

Yeah well, normal discussion partners would know what unreliable means. :(

cba to put it in a more simple way, sorry.

I can.

"Changes between one frame and the next are processed by the image processing part of the chip and translated into movement on the two axes using an optical flow estimation algorithm."

point to the part of the text that is unreliable.

the source, you moron?

so you agree that the above sentence is factually correct?

yes.


Do you agree that you were imagining things when you wrote that I wrote wiki is incorrect?

yes.


Do you agree that you were imagining things when you wrote that I wrote wiki is incorrect?

you wrote that wikipedia is unreliable in the context of the article I posted. what other logical conclusion was there to make other than you found something in that article that is incorrect? if you didn't do it for this reason then you're nothing more than a flaming idiot who's strongest argument is "WIKI IS BAD K?". so which is it?

there are others, maybe if you try really hard you can find them...

But yeah it's not like it's the first time you just stuck with the first answer that came to your head.

so tell me, why did you use the wikipedia argument in the context of this discussion? I'm seriously curious to know.

tough luck.

so, who won?

(don't answer, it's rhetorical)

Made me up the amount of rows my mouse scrolls just to get past the nonsense. Actually, that should be a static user recommendation when browsing ESR.

maybe we should have a button to ignore a specifc reply and all that follow it :)

i'm desperately trying to scroll past this!

If you guys were chicks I would imagine you having hot lesbian sex right now involving honey and cucumbers.

It is the only conclusion for people that continue to fight so much...

but we are no lesbians, so war is the expected outcome ;)

yes silly , becks knows everything, he was just testing if WE knew that! hahahahahahah oh man, I read this before, but the funny doesn't go away. :)

This mouse needs a Sujoy Mousescore.

I couldn't agree more.

I wonder what the best way to test whether or not it skips, or whether or not it has positive accel?

All of these random player testimonies are hard to trust. I wasn't impressed with the driver haven review either.

max speed:
http://666kb.com/i/belsq4t0uc4x1l7kn.gif
say hi to accel:
http://666kb.com/i/belsqdbh6ng4hh0nr.gif
deathadder for comparison:
http://sousuch.hp.infoseek.co.jp/DIY/mouse/im...yuragi.gif

taken from http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1782842#pid1782842

looking at those graphs in the other thread, the g9x suffers from the same problem, right?

i wonder why the g9x seems to have generated some favourable opinions when it's just as bad as the xai.

In fact i havent tried g9x myself but did try g500 and it behaved the same as xai(don't rly remember for sure though since i didnt like g500 at all due to the weight/sensor position/etc so i didnt care about the sensor perfomance tbh :D). Dunno, g500 and g9x might be a bit different, but here's a graph of g9x showing that it hasnt got that huge accel as xai: http://666kb.com/i/beluh5x7m0nnjthuf.gif
As you can see the average counts(if you mentally approximate the curve into a flat line) would be almost horizontal, close to 100% line meaning the accel is pretty low unlike with the case of xai where it goes higher and higher
but tbh g500 felt the same as xai, might it be that g500 and g9x are rly different somehow?(eventhough there's a same firmware+loader for both) :S

You can also see it from a different POV:

With the Xai you will always have some pos. accel. at higher speeds but no negative accel., with the G9x you can have both.

:D

PS: I wouldn't call it huge, according to the graphs we are talking about 5%.
At least fo me that is nothing i can't handle.

on the other hand... when do you actually move the mouse 1m/s or more? maybe i'm very different from everyone else here but i can't see myself ever doing that :p

I guess mew might.

most people (eg. not mew) play with a sens around 15-30cm for a full 360°. let's ignore for a fact a 360° uselessness and pretend we for whatever reason need and are capable of doing two full 360° in a second... that's still just 0.6m/s.

for most two quick 180° turns are all they need which translatesto approx. 0.15-0.3m/s.
did i miss something here? is mouseaccel the problem? why do people insist on experiencing positive accel with the xai/g5/g9x?

You must be playing a very slow game. Rocket jumping, flick shots etc. often need 1.5 m/s with a sens of around 30cm/360 in quake.

Would u not buy the Xai given the info we're given? What about the kinzu?

Basically I want a new mouse since I'm not too happy with the DA (too heavy and I don't love the overall design)

If my Xai would die I would definitely buy a new one but if some little pos. accel. is a no-go for you I would not suggest to buy it.

I don't know how it's in Norway but here I can order a product, test it and send it back within 2 weeks if I don't like it.

Well, the Xai is heavier then my DA, so not sure if it'd be what you're looking for if the DA was too heavy :P

my Xai is clearly lighter than my DA

Think the deathadder comes in at 107g and the xai 380g

Xai is 94g without a cord attached (--> a little bit more if put on a scale)

Must be the shape that gives the xai a heavier feel in my hand then

xai is exactly 100g
DA is about 107, dont remember for sure

I must have got the package weight then mouse weight then (woops :P)

Still, the deathadder feels like a feather compared to my Xai. Maybe someone scraped the innards out of my DA :P

xai is heavier, i think

Xai feels alot lighter because of non retarded right side design

a slow game? :)

people on lan tell me i could play on a bear mat the way i'm playing so maybe it's just me and my playing style but i couldn't imagine doing a movement over 1 meter in a second.

edit: a flickshot over 1.5meter? you gotta be kidding me, your mousepad is 2 meter wide? :D you probably didn't mean it that way but that sounds kinda strange.

1 second is an eternity in games like ql qw.

m/s is a speed not a distance ;)

Jep, I have no problems hitting over 1,5m/s with "movement" or a simple 180° turn @ about 35cm/360° in W:ET or RtCW.

ok, i'm probably to thick to understand so please explain: how do you know? how did you measure m/s?

launch mousetest.exe and leave it in background with max speed test launched and go play some game

what h8m3 said ;)

The fact that it is not suited for quake due to high speed malfunction is not really important anymore. Noone plays quake or dm games that require these types of movement.

thanks to crea i finally got the chance to try out the mousetest.exe.
after setting the dpi to the correct value (razer salmosa = 1800) i first tested it in windows then cleared the results and let it run in the background while i played some quakelive clanarena.

in win i managed to hit over 1m/s when i tried real hard - ingame i ended up with 0.6m/s up to 0.9m/s.
my 'real sens' (360/(0.022*(1800/2.54)*1.2) comes out as around 19cm for a 360. i'm playing on a steelseries qck heavy with fov 100, in_mouse 2 and no accel whatsoever.

if the program does any good it proved that atleast for me a mouse needs to work up to approximately 1m/s and i'll never run into problems in a game of quake.

i'm prepared for the incoming flames of 'you're a newb' (i'm not) your aim sux (it's pretty good) you can't move fast enough (i can) and whatever else... not true :\)

Aiming is usually not where you need the insane speeds, it's rocketjumping as you can increase to get max distance and control where you are going if you get your viewpoint towards the place you are going as fast as possible. People have different needs, some were fine with the G5, others needed 2+ m/s top speed. Sensitivity plays a big factor in the required top speed though.

yeah, all true.
i was fine with the g3 when lots of others bitched about it. lately a lot of people started using 'low sens' too while i still hate playing with anything slower than 20-21cm/360°. i should really try out the xai and see if i even get the acceleration issues everybody keeps complaining about.

1 second can be a long time when you're doing things that require speed more than precision, i.e. doing a quick 180°, rj'ing fast or w/e. maybe not a problem when playing at less than 20cm/360° but mice that can't make 1.5m/s w/o skipping are massively unreliable at low sens and a lot of people use low sens.

Sure you can pretty much do anything with most sensitivities without hitting the threshold to often but when you need that fast 180° every once in a while it's probably not because of your eagerness to watch the floor tiling.

Just try MouseTest.exe already and see for yourself :) I can hit over 2,5m/s if I try hard

If that testing is being done with the program you linked, then I don't trust it at all. Mousetest.exe told me the wmo had 200 dpi, and then it said 1000dpi. It also measured the speed at .7 m/s, and then 3.7 m/s.

Actually it's just the dpi measurement which is terrible. The measured speeds were off by approximately the same factors the dpi were off. However, that still doesn't increase my trust much.

That oscillating graph of counts per second isn't sufficient to produce constant positive acceleration. It would instead mean the count rate oscillated as a function of speed, and so there would be small positive and negative deviations in response.

no it wasnt made with the help of mousetest (which btw works well and it's impossible to get your results doing it properly)
Tests are made by some japanese guy just like sujoy did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVhRTomYEc

And i dont mean those sinusoidal deviations, i mean the curve which you get by approximating the initial one into more smooth one
smth like this:
http://666kb.com/i/bembmcqcomq0nuxym.gif
as you can see it's going up
while those sinusoidal deviations make that accel even worse(well i wouldnt have mind if it had been straight linear accel) and cause sens unstability overall

It sounds like you're saying that not only does the polling rate oscillate (which is understandable), but it increases with respect to velocity.

I'm skeptical. What would possibly cause the polling rate to actually increase above 500hz when the mouse was moved faster?

where did i mention anything about usb rate? :O

Define "counts".

lol that's counts coming from "Counts per Inch" aka CPI or DPI which is a term used to describe the optical
resolution of a mouse
basically that's pixels/dots/counts the mouse registered
the stability graph is basically made out of this max speed graph http://666kb.com/i/belsq4t0uc4x1l7kn.gif which is simple f(x)=counts per meter graph

and with the latest graph(http://666kb.com/i/bembmcqcomq0nuxym.gif) i just wanted you to see that after 0.75m/s the registered distance is averagely 5% bigger than actual one the mouse has passed which is called positive acceleration

which program do you use for testing that?

I guess the japanese guy wrote the program himself. ;)

you know any other mice with the deathadder sensor?

edit: or mx518 sensor

there are the DB3G, Salmosa and Abyssus but I guess you knew that

afaik there is no other mouse with the new MX518 sensor cause it's "exclusive" to Logitech but there are a lot with the old one, pretty much every 1600 DPI optical mouse

thanks. yea I'm perticulary interested in those with old mx518 sensor but with a nicer shape. know any of those?

that would be the ADNS-3080:

the whole A4Tech X7 Optical range (+ the rebrandings like the Sharkoon Fireglider) but they possibly use a different lens which would affect max. ips

Razer DB non-3G or DB Pro Solution 1.6 and the Krait

NZXT Avatar, different lens (less max. ips) and as far as I have heard it has stronger angle snapping (aka prediction/correction)

Raptor Gaming M1 Iron

Raptor Gaming LM2: maybe different lens but I would guess it has the original one

Zykon M1

Everglide G-1000

Saitek Cyborg V.1 (I guess)

Zalman FPS Gun :D

Fatal1ty 1010

Some of those might use the older ADNS-3060, like afaik the Ikari Optical does, and there are ofc a lot of "non-gaming" mice with this sensor and also mice which are only available in Asia (Dharmapoint DRTCM02 or Hades Gaming Paris H3 for example).

holy crap that's what I call an answer. you are my buddy now (like it or not)

:D

Yes prediction on NZXT Avatar is beyond terrible.

also lol at the "unboxing" videos on youtube with no ingame tests. those idiots should all be gassed.

Original Diamondback and MX518 v1 have the same sensor afaik.

Few differences in the xai/g9x sensor
xai:
High definition sensor sporting 10,8 MegaPixels Per Second
g9x:
12 megapixels/second

maybe some more not sure if the megapixels play a part.

There are more but only some features/solutions, the difference in specs are only the higher fps and more cpi, which are probably interpolated but that doesn't really matter.
Xai and G9x/G500 share the same sensor hardware.

The results shown in the graphs above were done with an older firmware/srom (same specs as Xai).

I think its a shame they altered the WMO/IMO1.1 shape a bit. The curve on the sides is different, which makes it less comfortable when gripping with pinky/ringfinger and thumb. I feel a bit forced to hold it with just the pinky and the thumb (three fingers on top).

I'm actually having some trouble holding it 2 fingers on top ring pinky on side :/

Feels so low towards the front..

can someone please tell me how close the shape is to that of the WMO? i'd still go for a WMO if i could but they're not available in my country.

looks close on pictures but in reality it isn't.

also ffs:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_npmv=3&a...Categories

thanks but i can't see anything on that link.

look again

well i know of ebay but i don't want to pay a shipping fee of 20 dollars for a 15 dollar mouse :)

you were asking about xai which is objectively a worse mouse than wmo and costs 70$. so paying 90$ for a worse mouse rather than 35$ for a better one makes sense to you?

wow i had no idea it was that expensive. as the shape is kinda similar to the WMO, i thought it was Steel's entry level mouse... like what Razer have with the Salmosa.

any recommendations on an alternative to the WMO then? everything's available locally except the WMO as nobody was buying them :( buying a salmosa here would cost me less than a WMO from ebay. any idea if it's any good?

salmosa has a good sensor (da) and the shape looks ok. I'd rather buy the ie3.0 tho

i'm currently using an IE 3. it's a great mouse but it is a little too big for my hands. the WMO was easier to control.

@ ashr

The Steelseries Kinzu is their entry level mouse.

On a completely different topic

Has anyone noticed that the dpic/cpi whatever numbers are a bit wonky?

I mean 800 cpi should be twice as fast as 400, right? Well not with the XAI.

400 seems to be faster than 800 by some margin. And i have reason to believe that 400 cpi is more or less correct on this mouse, since when i took another 400 dpi proven mouse it felt the same, yet the 800 seems low.

Anyone else run into this issue?

highest available = best anyway?

Soz, didnt get you there, can you rephrase?

I was kidding : > I like 900 myself with win drivers at 6

Yes its all wrong.

I can't use this formula any more

I = 360 / ( M * R * B )


because when I measure the distance I get a different result. 1800dpi sens 1.4 should be 16.5cm but its actually around 15.5cm.

:D

I had no such problems with MX518 and Diamondback.

I will take a look at home.

Try to compare multiples of 90 (for example 450 and 900 CPI) to rule out this "issue" is caused by the ExactSens algorithm.

Can you explain that a bit further? Why 90?

coz avago 9500 has 90cpi steps in it's pure condition without ExactSens

yep I noticed this. my 2400 dpi is somehow a lot slower than my 1800. pretty interesting.

So I got the Xai. I have to say it's FUCKING AWESOME!! The shape is the best I've ever tried, it's like a cross between wmo and 3.0, weight is perfect, tracks really well from what I can tell so far.

yes yes yes

perfect mousey

How long have u had yours? some bastard bummed me out saying it started malfunctioning after a while (neg and pos accel + randomly changing CPI :x )

Do u use feet? I kinda wanna wait for official ones but I'd like to know if it fucks with the tracking somehow..

About 2 weeks. He was just unlucky I guess.

Nah I don't use any extra feet because stock feet are fine imo. As people said the Xai doesn't glide very smoothly on QcK but its not affecting my game performance so I don't give a shit :D

I actually love the feet but it tracks like 2mm above surface on my Goliathus Control.. Not too big of a deal i guess. I'm prolly gonna just stick to stock aswell.

I have less than one CD (1,2 mm) on the Talent but I haven't tested it on my Goliathus

glide is good for me, I have used a Ikari before, mybe that's why

I have been using the Xai pretty much since it came out.
Things I have noticed;
There IS a slight bit of pos accel, but i only notice it when snapping between two points to test, in game I don't really notice it, I guess it does impact a bit though.
The feet seem fine for me but I am using a Qck heavy, it tracks very well on here and the life off is low, I would imagine the feet would make it toucher to move on harder pads, especialy ones that chew up the feet like the destructor. I would test and let you know but I want to keep the feet smooth so I wont be using it on a hard pad.

I am currently using it with all the fancy rubbish turned off and at 1530cpi on 1920x1200 and I think its very accurate. Before having this I used the razer mamba (wired) and I would say this mouse is a lot better. The mamba tracked well and had no pos/neg accel but the shape was not as good (for me) and the really bad z-index tracking made it impossible to use on soft pads so the feet wore down very quick. I would buy this mouse again, the only downer is the slight pos accel and with any luck that may be fixable? unless the G9x has the same issue?

was ist z-index tracking?

he meant "z-axis tracking"

The problem with the Philips twin-eye is that it "interprets" movement on the z-axis, for example lifting the mouse, as movement on the x/y axis.
So if you lift the mouse your crosshair will move a few pixels up and left (or maybe it's the other way round). Not a real problem but if you use the mouse on a clothpad and press a button you will "push" the mouse slightly into the pad and so you get also some movement on the x/y axis.

There are some firmware upgrades to solve this problems but those are only work-arounds cause they fuck up the small movements und feel pretty weird.

The first fix from Razer for the Lachesis was a software which cancels movement data after a button click for a certain amount of time, rofl.

I have tested the Xai for three days and love the shape, size and weight of the mouse but I am having one major issue. While in-game I will randomly have my crosshair snap up or down. It just happens and I haven't been able to reproduce it intentionally. Does anyone else have this problem? I was thinking of doing a fresh Windows 7 installl to see if that fIxes it.

i had that problem
i also had a problem where it wouldn't track and the cursor would jitter.
This should help.
http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/158/When...an+I+do%3F

also does anyone have the problem where it scrolls down by its self even thought i didn't even touch the scroll wheel?

I've noticed that on cloth pad, the dust which is inside the pad can come and put on the sensor of the mouse and even a little can create issues with the tracking (your crosshair will randomly go down and up)

XAI

]All optical and laser are prone to that, so it's certainly a possibility. If a dust particle or hair gets on the lens, it'll become inaccurate and the cursor will jump a few pixels at random.

Yes, but with this inaccuracy due to few particles, it's huge tbh !
On my wmo/DA, I don't have such a problem :/

After uninstalling the Xai software, the mouse no longer does the pixel jumping anymore. I'm not sure why but perhaps there is some incompatibility with their software and Windows 7 x64? Anyhow, the mouse performed for 3 hours without any pixel jumps after removing the software from Windows, with it installed I had it happen 2-3 times in a 30 minute gaming session.

the lift distance is lower at 450cpi than higher cpi... need calibration tools, automatic calibration suck

since i've plugged the mouse i've some BSOD (or computer boot fail), randomly have my crosshair snap up or down too and scrool switch alone

and look what fishy say http://dl.free.fr/bKQwT6VE8

What's up with the 30cm/360 senses and trying to hit huge m/s? You guys don't need more than 1m/s because the second you even hit a quarter of the speed your hand is capable of, you have already turned 720 degrees and that's not a good idea to play :D People who play counter strike with sensitivities like 50+cm/180 on 55cm and wider cloth pads needs high speed tracking. When I used 50cm/180 I could easily hit 3-4m/s since it needed long and super-fast sweep to do a 90 degree flickshot. And you really need to play a long time with sensitivities that low to get your speed up. I've even had problems with DA and had to up my sens up a bit to avoid skipping (higher sens -> lower m/s needed for fast movements).

I've been reading a lot of forums about the XAI (mine is coming in 10 hours) and I've noticed a theme around the CPI settings. Has anyone tested the performances/smoothness on different settings?

Assuming that all the exact shit is off, rate is 500 or 1000hz, newest firmware, how does the mouse feel ingame with these settings:

400cpi 6/11
450cpi 6/11 (by anon: the lift distance is lower at 450cpi than higher cpi, by h8m3: avago 9500 has 90cpi steps in it's pure condition without ExactSens)
1800cpi 3/11 (is this the "default" cpi-setting? low sensitivity users should know the difference compared to 400/450 6/11 on movements like we notice with deathadder. Does other abilities suffer when moving up on cpi like tracking, since it seems to do so with all other mice except on deathadder since it's best performance is achieved on 1800cpi?)
And finally let's say if you use settings like 400cpi 6/11 ingame 2.8, how does the mouse feel if you switch to 1120cpi 6/11 ingame 1.0 like the steelseries advices on ExactSense? Does it lower performance?

I think these are the questions on finding a good performance on XAI. What if that 5% positive accel is caused by any cpi not in the 90cpi step scale? Another example: When someone says "BAD MOUSE, cursor jumps randomly and stuff", what if he uses something like 5001cpi and it just fucks up the performance. When I had kinzu few months ago, the only cpi I could use was 400. Anything higher and it would skip more easier and it became unsmooth. On max cpi the mouse felt like a HP bundle ballmouse, it would skip even on small movements and aiming was hell since it became as bad as a ballmouse (yes I lowered my windows sens accordingly and adjusted ingame sens so I had the same cm/degree as before). I believe XAI has some similarities when comparing lowest cpi to highest and the way I see it, there's only 3 possible options for XAI to work perfectly: 400 6/11, 450 6/11 or 1800 3/11 and it would be good if other's could post their results also (I will start testing tomorrow).

Professional gamers don't buy mice for their high CPI count. It's high fps that is wanted, it brings smoothness and it's easier to aim on target. DA 6400fps if I remember correctly, IME 3.0 9000fps and XAI 12000fps. Other thing is good max acceleration (G) and tracking (IPS) which are needed for slow sens gamers: XAI outperforms DA and IME 3.0 on those easily and goes beyond hand capabilities on 99,99% of people. Normally we don't give a shit about cpi but in this case (and what DA and Kinzu has proven to us) changing cpi just fucks up the other stuff we really need from the mouse.

You shouldn't think that much, when you get yor Xai try some settings and use the one which feels best for you.

You can't assume sensor performance at different CPI levels just because of some experiences with other (optical) mice, the sensor of the Kinzu isn't even from the same company.

The FPS of the sensor are important for performance and accuracy but they don't have much to do with smoothness cause your limited by the polling rate.

oh and btw I have ruled out that the small acceleration is caused by ExactSense algorithm

how can it be exactsens causing it if g500 and g9x have the same problem

as I wrote it isn't caused by ExactSense ;)

um it sounds like you're thinking of the 3G infrared sensor. the xai/g500/g9x all have a new laser sensor. g500 and g9x "default" cpi setting i guess would be 5700 which nobody in their right mind would use.
the xai looks like 5000cpi. even though it's the same sensor.

"I think these are the questions on finding a good performance on XAI. What if that 5% positive accel is caused by any cpi not in the 90cpi step scale?"

If this is the case it should be in increments of 90cpi. I don't pay the amount a Xai costs for inept driver/setup options.

At any rate you are wrong and it has accel no matter what setting you put it on, nice theory I guess..

I kept my XAI in the end and...

I love it now :) Not quite hitting the same accuracies as i was with my deathadder. just yet.. but then i don't play nearly as much as i used too a couple of years ago hehe

Still no positive acceleration fix then? I see that the G9x and the G500 have the same issue... if thats the case then it is no doubt a sensor issue and I don't know if the manufacturer will be able to issue some kind of firmware fix for it... lets hope so, its starting to piss me off.

I wrote comment #220 and promised to get back when I get the mouse and test it properly. Well I received it but it was broken =/ Didn't work on cloth pad at all and was barely even functional on my table. I was so pissed off that I didn't send it back to get a new one so I just opened it up and tried to check if there was some faulty installation or something that caused the sensor not working but didn't find anything. Firmware update didn't change anything.

So I guess I paid 60 euros for checking how to open the mouse =) Nice paper weigh though :D
Ordered a new one which comes on tuesday, hopefully it works.

Could u post photos of what is inside mouse? If not plz write number which is on top of sensor. Thx in advance.

If you want inside pics of a mouse the chinese are allways a good source:

http://www.tatazu.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=111559

--> A9500

Hey Bullveyr, what is the difference between FPS and Megapixels in the mouse?

Megapixels determine the amount of pixels there are in each photo the sensor takes

FPS = How often it takes those photos.

jep, megapixels per second is just the amount of pixels the sensor process

MegaPixels per second = FPS * Image Array (30*30 pixels in the case of the A9500)

According to this avago9500 datasheet: http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-1726EN the hardware default cpi of the sensor is 1620cpi. min 90, max 5040.

Sujoy should make benchmarks of the mouse with different cpi values.

400cpi & 450cpi to see if there's anything different at perfect control curve using 90cpi scale or not.
1620cpi which states as default
and then maximum cpi.

I got a Xai a little while back. Used to use a 1.1, then a deathadder and now the Xai.

Really like the thing. Great surface, great shape, great sensor etc.

It works fine 99.9% of the time but very rarely it will come up with some really weird bug where it tracks weird. Kinda feels like it's suddenly gone down to 100dpi, and then goes back up to 400dpi. That said, there is a bit of dust on the sensor, I just haven't got a camera lenses brush or qtip or something to get rid of it |:(

Don't notice any positive accel to be honest. I don't doubt it's there, but it's so minor that... meh

It feels like Xai moves more to right than to left... If i put two obstacles to my pad and move mouse between them i see that it moves everytime more to right than to left. If i keep doing these small movements long enough my guy has made a full circle :F

bs :D

I have had 2 xais. Got first one returned cause i THOUGHT it was defective. I was having the issue with the teleporting cursor and the mouse wheel scrolling itself - I thought this was a defect. The person who said to uninstall driver to fix it seems to be correct. This could be a 64 bit issue as i have vista 64.

In any event whats funny is the 2nd xai is ACTUALLY defective - while the first one seems to not have been. I have learned the hard way that even if 2 mice are both the same - as in 2 xais - they can be very different.

The second xai tracks very oddly on all my pads but is most noticeably on my qck heavy. It goes right slower, and after going right for a few inches on the pad it will start to go down instead of right. It feels like its moving left faster... not sure how to describe.

Apparently - if u can get a xai that works perfectly - and uninstall the driver (if ur having the mwheel/teleporting bug) - ur in good shape :).

I like it so much - i'm HIGHLY considering getting a third xai.

execpt none work perfectly because you cannot remove accel.

I find it odd that people who are so anal about mice are willing to put up with it. Myself included.

Yah that positive accel after 1m/s is gonna remain until steel fixes it. But on the g9x, i noticed that the accel seems a lot less on the 9hd pad over my steelseries qck. Yah like ive said if they could make it work perfectly up to 2.5m/s ... man id be a happy camper.