This is the legitimate Quake-successor.

yea with less than 50ppl playing it :D
very great. haha

"Hi person(s)"

implyin that only entik remains as playerbase

indy vs triple A

That's part of the authentic Quake experience

indeed too bad it hasnt have a software company like bethesda or id in its name.....

What drew you away from CPMA?

Nothing really. I stopped playing for the longest time all together like many others and then just bought Reflex, more to support the project than anything else. Now i am just bashing some rockets around in ca and ffa sometimes.

Come back to CPMA too (not to the exclusion of Reflex), xero has done an amazing job of gathering people to the discord channel. Hit him up for details if you're not already on there. It would be great to have you around again as one of the true old school.

Guys, the real question is what drew you away from PMX? I still have the dropbox ;)

Combination of arQ not being around to carry out development and real life. I might see if we can resurrect some of the PMX ideas but most of it was very crude and unfinished. Wall jumps are a bugger to get right though I think it's good direction as the greatest depth comes from the greatest across the board interaction with the level architecture. Quake Champions is unfortunate for how little it does anything with the formula.

Wall jump is kinda meh for me. It's something, I guess, but I don't feel it really enhances the gameplay much. It would depend on what the goals of a project were, but I'd probably focus my efforts elsewhere, especially if it's a headache to get working. Delivering a Quake clone with subtle gameplay adjustments has been done enough IMO, and it hasn't been highly successful.

Diabotical may have a good direction as a Quake clone trying to get more players in, but I'm still not convinced Quake gameplay will ever retain players again. I really doubt QC is going to do it - there's nothing that interesting about what they're doing, even to casual players. I haven't seen anyone on casual comment sections who's truly excited about one champion or another. And around here it's a split between "this is terrible" and "it might be ok guys, give it a chance". Nobody's really excited.

I've been playing Rocket League for the last month or two. Totally different genre, but it's got good pacing and an extremely high skill cap. It's brutal going against someone who's much better than you, but matchmaking helps loads, and it feels rewarding when you do something good for your level of play, no matter what that is.

Would be fun to play an FPS that has significantly different gameplay ideas but retains the pace, aggression, depth, and at least some of the freedom-of-movement of a Quake game.

QC seems predicated on the idea that a pure AFPS can't be popular. Rocket League is great fun and it's also fairly straightforward. It's pure.

That's what QC should've been. A pure, well made AFPS. Build the gameplay around the moments that make Quake awesome: speed, airrockets, clutch plays, etc..

You make good points. I think rewarding and highlighting those nice plays is crucial, and Quake makes a pretty half-hearted attempt at it with badges (even the new ones I noticed in the duel video just posted for air rockets and something to do with picking up armors).

Rocket League has an easier time highlighting plays due to the structure of the gameplay. They have the ball explosion when you score, and it's easy to show a replay that makes you feel like a badass.

How do you do that in a pure AFPS? Because while RL is a totally different game, every game someone has played or could play is the competition. AFPS have to be able to compete with modern games that give those rewarding feelings at every level of play.

I don't think you've experienced a good wall jump yet. It might be hard to get it right but it potentially replaces double jumps as a more interesting interaction with geometry to gain height. Interaction with geometry through movement and weapon angles is the raw core of pure FPS. To allow great depth you have to maximize this. Maximizing does not mean making huge jumps up in the air of course, interaction can be subtle but needs to shift the prediction landscape players hold in their heads about where someone can be and where you can shoot.

Ideally I want a game where I can shoe horn in something like skiing or crouch slide too. Not necessarily to the preclusion of air control, and standing might be more elegant than crouching. Tribes skiing paths are fantastic. A great physics design could scale from tiny box deathmatch to giant landscapes.

QC isn't very good, it's bits of Quakes with a single dumb ability tacked on, it's a poor halfway out. It should either be purer or go much further and be more like first person Street Fighter. I also don't think Diabolitcal have enough idea what they're doing with FPS game design to achieve anything new or highly tweaked, they can't do the usual industry approach of leaving the tweaking to the end. I need to try Rocket League.

I'm not sure what player numbers an action FPS could achieve, CS has lots of players as it has the clear draw of realistic guns. I think integrated social and training elements are important. A viable community is certainly possible and there are major advantages as a platform for esports and sponsors, a game that feels better at 240Hz with g-sync can brand and sell top end gaming equipment better than endless MOBA shit.

I do remember that the wall jump was going to be more flexible, the height being based on how quickly you hit the second jump or something along those lines. If you can make a wall jump feel as fun as strafe jumping or skiing to where it really keeps people playing, I'll be impressed. It's always felt like a tack-on attempt to get people to go "cool!" for a couple minutes to me. That's a good thing if it's just a visual or feeling, but becomes more of a chore if it's an actual required gameplay mechanic that doesn't add much fun or utility.

I absolutely love Tribes and skiing, and I thought crouch sliding was fun. Definitely check out Rocket League. Notice how the game makes you feel your speed visually - that's like a reward in its own right. Tribes:Ascend did that with sound and visuals as you get up to higher speeds. Strafe jumping could have something simple like that. Crouch sliding could have a visual/audio indication too. If you made a little hole for someone to crouch slide through, it could give additional feedback upon successfully sliding through. Little stuff like that is what makes a game more immersive and fun for lesser skilled players - it helps them keep interest while learning the game.

CS has a lot more complex systems going on that make it addictive than just having realistic guns. You get money to buy your weapons at the end of each round. You can get the better guns quicker if you win a round, but you still get them after a couple losses anyway - rewarding performance but also keeping poor performing people happy. Players are anticipating those rewards as they play, and they're excited when things happen like picking up an AWP off a dead guy. Also the way the rounds work, you feel great if you win a 1v2, and you know everyone in the server knows you did it.

Some have theorized that long games (10-15min duels) keep players from playing, which is probably why they're trying a round-based duel. Others have pointed out that RTS and MOBA games last a long time but remain popular. Those games have reward mechanisms that make it exciting to play for lower skilled players, and keep the game mechanics working for high levels of play. Getting to the advanced tech units in an RTS is exciting. Leveling up a hero is exciting. And it keeps the game mechanics rolling.

Just spitballing, but why not have mechanics in an AFPS like this? Daikatana tried it with leveling up your character, and that aspect of the game was actually really fun to me. Way more rewarding and fun than a one-push skill button that I got because I chose a champion.

It doesn't have to be leveling up a character though - what if you could level up a gun somehow? Bigger blast radius on rockets, less wiggly LG, etc. Make each of the upgrades have a good visual feedback (rocket blast and LG stream color, RG skin/model change) and audio feedback (blast sound, etc.). You could make the guns look like they're missing pieces in such a way that it's obvious that you could unlock higher models of the gun. That keeps upgrades in the player's mind the entire time they're playing. If upgrades are based on performance with the gun, the model could visually show that you're approaching an upgrade (light shafts coming out of the gun getting brighter or something).

I think that stuff could be done without it feeling like AFPS mechanics are being bastardized.

Social is nice, but interaction doesn't have to be deep. In RL, the d-pad can be used like the V menu in Tribes to say generic statements, which makes for people saying stuff like "What a save!" when there was a horrible miss by a goalie - it's fun. But it's a pain in the ass to add a friend, there are no lobbies or anything like that. Most of the people you play against you expect to never see again. Going after the latest PC tech might help a little bit, but only for a short time.

Makes you wonder when they will give it up. No turning it around at this point. It's obvious only 5 guys like it

It needs a bit more visual polish and some marketing help. Plus a tournament platform to host it.

Quake rip-off...

...built buy guys who made the CPMA mode for Quake 3... and built this one from the ground up...

Arqoon (the main CPMA dev) never was a part of this, and Reborn left Reflex.

So I think there's no CPMA devs in this. Or if there are they didn't make anything noteworthy.

Don't sell Reflex like something that it is not.

It was Newborns idea.

And he hasn't been a part of this for many months. In this update he had no contribution, so Reflex is not a CPMA-team game anymore.

Yeah because it's totally all about the guy who started the thing and abandoned it. Not the people trying to keep it alive and give it a name.

Honestly, fuck this whole community. I've been playing here since 2005, some will say that's not long enough. But I've been here long enough to see, all the zerg ESR community accepts as gospel or gives a shit about, is whatever id software shits out. Well have fun, now CPM/Reflex physics is in your new Quake, at least in the basic sense.

Fuck xero for splitting the CPM/Reflex community by getting salty over newborn's own problems and making them his own. Completely ruining any chance of a community Reflex ever had.

Fuck all of you who shit on people who devote their time to make and promote a better Arena FPS game. Reflex was the idea of a better platform because id software hadn't taken a shit in a while, so the community had to pick up their slack.

What reflex is getting here is no different from what cpma got in its heyday.

The best thing that could happen to it is to grow a dedicated community from word of mouth, like other niche games did (NS2 comes to mind). Promoting it here seems like a lost cause and the drama brought by some salty quakers can't do any good.

Fuck xero for splitting the CPM/Reflex community...

So much merit for one single person.

Completely ruining any chance of a community Reflex ever had.

You really believe that the only man control masses like a fucking puppet master?

Fuck all of you who shit on people who devote their time to make and promote a better Arena FPS game.

Such a bias.

reflex is dead because: pre-alpha, no ui, no ctf, no clipping, no cosmetics, no marketing, no matchmaking, no announcer, xero?

Maybe the game is just bad, and people don't enjoy playing it?

The mechanics are there and done well but yes it's not 1.0 enough to really give it a solid push. CPMA didn't really grow until it reached 1.0.

Actually game is 1.1.0 (what this thread is about).

Touche... well doesn't seem 1.0 worthy yet. Nothing against reflex. I like what they're doing. Just seems like it's still beta.

Technically it is still beta, they made a hop from 0.50 to 1.00 version. Otherwise it would be too late. (QC coming out... 2 years of development and they're still in a half way to final release)
It looks like necessary measure to expose a not finished product like a final one.

Yeah I understand and it's though being a small team.

No individual can be blamed for it's death. Me and many others who aren't so vocal largely stopped playing as we wore out our good will on Reflex and have basically watched other games catch up and surely take over. We all enjoyed Reflex for a while but people see when things sort of stagnate e.g falling into a trend with def and tehace maps....

Me and many others who aren't so vocal largely stopped playing

Thanks for the laugh.

You have no idea, the Aussie community had a lot more to say before we all just went back to playing CPMA haha.

Honestly, you must seriously be the biggest faggot. What's your problem with Reflex anyway?
You and your dud CPM mates flogged Reflex for 10 hot minutes then came back to Quake Live just to piss and moan about how it isn't your beloved CPMA. You're probably still playing Quake Live now.
I was really getting into playing Reflex until I realised that you and your friends would be there too, then I quit immediately and went back to Quake Live, remembering how intolerable you are. And now you've probably done the exact same thing with Reflex, except that you've probably run out an audience there for you to be "The only gay in the village" with.

10 minutes is a lot less than 755 hours

The problem was the game never played better than cpm and that good will wore off

We've been supporting Reflex since it was a q3 mod, and the standalone since it was build03 back in the early 2010's. We've given it years and years worth of chances. Profanum has actually been the quietest player about Reflex's short comings than the rest of the community. In fact, the Australian community in general has kept pretty quiet in comparison. We all just wanted to support our mate, so I'm not too sure why you think you have the right to comment on something you've had 0 involvement in. We all quietly tucked back away to CPM with 0 harassment to anyone else. You seem to be the only one in AU that has a problem with this.

Less dead then CPM. If Reflex is bad, guess that means CPM is worse...

whoosh

I'm sorry, did you not just argue Reflex is out of excuses and it's just a bad game? So what's CPM's excuse? I played CPM for 10+ years so clearly I don't think CPM is a bad game...

I'm sorry, did you not just argue Reflex is out of excuses and it's just a bad game?

I did not argue no. I merely drafted a list of things that people blamed for Reflex's small player base. They've all been added to the game and the community is still small. So I guess the obvious next step would be blame me? Right? I think the point is that instead of side-stepping around issue that the game has no vision/design for gameplay, and the developers neither have the resources/competency in this area, Reflex players/community are quite content to blame the Promode boogey-man. I'm quite confident that if CPMA had 0 activity, entik would've made the same post just replace "CPMA" with "QuakeLive" (or any game that isn't Reflex.)

So what's CPM's excuse?

For what? Being dead? I don't know? Maybe that it was launched in 2001, had it's hay-day in 2003, and hasn't seen development since 2008? Or maybe because the Q3 community was effectively killed by QL? Or maybe because it was built on the back of community contributions, and didn't suck up ~$500K in money? What's Reflex' excuses for having such massive advantages over CPMA, and still not coming anywhere close to its peak activity? :D

I played CPM for 10+ years so clearly I don't think CPM is a bad game...

Maybe you're just a masochist?

Now it's my turn... whoosh

What was your point?

I don't think either are bad games, clearly. But what can attract and retain new players is built into Reflex as well as in the community culture that encourages new players. Which is why Reflex is more successful in this regard.

Why do you keep posting? Just go fucking play CPMA.

I didn't blame you for causing a small player base or killing Reflex, stop assuming you did. CPMA has always had a small player base and Reflex was destined for that same fate long before it was even made. Thanks to this community's raging boner for vq3 physics and autistic hatred for air control.

I said fuck you for deliberately rebooting the CPMA channel in the wake of your ban from the Reflex discord. You PMed me to get me to join and to forget Reflex because of your 'drama learnings' or whatever went on. Honestly, I don't give a fuck about the drama. If newborn wanted Reflex to shutdown and fail, he would have made a post publicly of what happened. Yet here you are actively trying see it fail a little everyday here and there. You did this same bullshit back in #uscpmpickup by trying to start a different pickup channel because you didn't have admin and didn't agree with nineX.

Anytime anyone says anything you just play passive and say 'hey man i'm just trying to play the game I like more lel'. You coincidentally host the same type of tournaments just after the the same tournament is announced for Reflex. You coincidentally start a Promode League after a Reflex League is started. Fuck off. Everyone knows that Reflex and CPMA share a player base, and you're purposely fucking with it because you don't want to support Reflex.

Cool, some people don't like Reflex and want to play CPMA. Great, go have fun setting up your CNQ3 and giant cfg and have a blast with your superior game. But what you've done and what you're doing, while at the same time playing possum, is fucking bullshit.

Cool story.

Before:

Fuck xero for splitting the CPM/Reflex community by getting salty over newborn's own problems and making them his own. Completely ruining any chance of a community Reflex ever had.

After:

I didn't blame you for causing a small player base or killing Reflex

You just fucking have.

I started CPM in 2005 and never saw as many players in CPM as Reflex has today. Whatever popularity CPM had back in the glory days was because it was a mod of a recent, hugely successful triple A title. This was both an advantage and a disadvantage. An advantage in that it gained a lot of players without marketing but a disadvantage that it relied on the popularity of the main game. Once that waned, CPM's player base did too.

I don't think you've had much of an (if any) influence on the Reflex player base but I do think it's kinda shitty that, like entik points out, you are obviously, actively lobbying against Reflex. But it's not just you and I don't think it's even that intentional. I think it's pretty basic human psychology. Anyone who has played the same game for years is "comfortable" with that game. CPM players who are used to playing the same small group of maps against the same small group of players are uncomfortable with anything that upsets that psychological status quo.

CPM has a lot of odd/weird things it does but these are not deal breakers for those players that are used to living with that. Reflex has a different set of oddities but no more egregious (in my opinion, much less so) but for the stubborn CPM, it is rationalized that these are deal breakers because, simply put, they are not CPM's oddities.

But it's not just you and I don't think it's even that intentional. I think it's pretty basic human psychology. Anyone who has played the same game for years is "comfortable" with that game. CPM players who are used to playing the same small group of maps against the same small group of players are uncomfortable with anything that upsets that psychological status.

This analysis is total nonsense. Promoders play lots of other games and to find out you just need to add them on steam. The idea of them being uncomfortable in Reflex is just another poor attempt to divert the conversation away from the Reflex's poor design.

Different games. CSGO, RL, or whatever, are different enough not to disturb the status quo.

CPM has a lot of odd/weird things it does

Which bits? Asking out of interest, not saying you're wrong or taking offence.

The splash "bug", weird hit detection, and the spawn system (although this last one is almost philosophical).

In Reflex, I don't think I've ever seen a "warp rocket", shot a rail or lg through an enemy model, or hit shots that don't make sense. On the same connection, same ISP, these things are not too uncommon in CPM, in my experience. But you just adapt and get used to shooting through enemies in CPM. Maybe an xerp thing?

Again, I'm not saying Reflex is flawless. Only pointing out how some act like any oddity with Reflex is catastrophic but in CPM, the odd stuff is acceptable because everyone has learned to just deal with it.

The splash "bug"

I wish people would stop calling this a bug. Splash doesn't go through brushes. Allowing splash through brushes reduces positional advantage and can be abused in rather silly ways. A better solution for this is that the mapper makes tiny stairs like the Aerowalk RA staircase a ramp for the rockets so shots will go through the tiny stairs and hit the ramp underneath, probably, though not certainly giving you closer to the desired behaviour. The stairs would remain and players would walk on them but shots would go straight through them. If you try to do this with code how does the game tell the difference between a tiny step and an important edge between totally different height levels that should be a tactical advantage? Do you really want rockets from a player below to wrap around an edge above them? You cannot rely on the shape of the ledge vs the step because there could be arbitrary decorative complications in the ledge brushes.

Weird hit detection - you're probably playing with xerpclients. I doubt you'd see this much with xerpclients off.

Spawn system - what do you see wrong and what does Reflex's do?

Sorry, splash feature? =) It's still crazy annoying to shoot a rocket directly under someone's feet on stairs and they take zero damage. I understand there's a reason for it to be that way but it is still intuitively wrong. In a weird way, stairs are part of the meta as they make you harder to hit with splash damage and you can use that to your advantage in CPM.

Could be. But like I'm saying, does that make it not an oddity? I thought there was discussion of forcing xerp 1 at some point before active development stopped.

I'm not totally savvy on Reflex's system other than it also includes line of sight. Aerowalk in CPM is a microcosm of the CPM spawn system abuse. I know you'll say, "that's the map's fault" but you can also abuse the spawn below RG on 3a from lava YA. It's funny, but some say Aerowalk is shitty w Reflex's spawn system. So I guess two wrongs make a right.

The thing is you haven't shot a rocket directly under someone's feet, you cannot draw a straight line from the rocket impact to any part of the target's bounding box so it's not a hit. You've shot it more than half the bounding box's width away from their centre so it's not under them and the step causes the splash to go straight up on the side closest to the target.

Xerp is an ID netcode option that gives an advantage but distorts the displayed version of reality when it interacts with CPMA's improved netcode. We could have and could potentially still lock it but the game feels sharper with it which is why we left it alone.

There's just not much you can do when a map is tiny and doesn't have many spawns. Any non-random system will give some element of control. I'd remove all spawn delay to increase the pace and remove as much control as possible. You can change the spawns for areowalk with a map config I think if you want to try to fix it, the problem is the map rather than systems.

but you can also abuse the spawn below RG on 3a from lava YA

You mean you can shoot someone the instant they spawn? Is this really a problem? I think this is fun but it's rough if it happens repeatedly in a tight match.

ix, I don't want to argue with you. Maybe I made a mistake even saying anything.

Regarding the splash bug/feature, you're making my point for me regarding what people take as acceptable. It's ironic that you don't like it being called a "bug" by people. Did you think why people call it a "bug"? Let me guess... they're idiots who don't know how these should things work? Could be... Clearly you would never take damage in a situation where the explosion hit, even 1u away from you, because it hit a brush angled this way and not that way.

Again, my line of argument is that you can list all these subjective oddities for either CPM or Reflex and, depending on how you choose to think, you can rationalize one set and critique the other. This is how we lie to ourselves about the things we enjoy. We see through the faults. They don't exist. Or if they do, they're logical and reasonable. But those other games, they're broken because those issues are different and therefore more severe. We've lost all capacity for objective thinking about our respective games when it's about rationalizing these things.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm explaining the details. I've been totally open to things being wrong and am giving explanations as to why they are the way they are. I did not say splash must stay exactly as it is (at least for any potential modified gameplay, current CPMA gameplay should be regarded as frozen and anything new would need a new label like PM3).

It's not a bug, it's working exactly as intended and expected but you don't like the way it works. You may be right that it's not optimal but to demonstrate that would need a better solution. Explain how your solution would work and I will try to pick holes in why that would fall apart, that leads to better solutions or the realisation it's a stupid idea. That's the game design process.

Did you think why people call it a "bug"? Let me guess... they're idiots who don't know how these should things work?

That's uncalled for, if you don't want to talk about it then let's not. I've not been aggressive nor dismissive towards you and I'm not going to put up with rudeness in return.

Sorry I took your previous responses as arguing that there's nothing "wrong" about the rocket splash.

Let's move on, how should it work?

However Reflex does seems like it works to me.

reflex solution - damage goes through < || = 8u brushes, through corners as well iirc

That's the sort of reason we removed id's existing solution, it makes height advantage against rockets weaker as the lower person can splash the vertical brush of the platform the higher player is standing on. It also opens up some ridiculous shots where you splash the underside of a ceiling and can get the splash to hit a player above it.

Reflex's solution also falls down because (I believe from your explanation) it is dependent on the mapper's brushes, as in the mapper may have broken things up to make a decoration in ways that lets more splash through what looks like a solid platform.

Conversely I can see this being nice for trying to predict shots on players on a platform like CPM4a's RA area, it just seems a bit easy. RL should be a weaker weapon for this situation.

You can miss a rail by one pixel and the punishment is that you have done no damage, you have missed. Why should rockets get softer treatment on this?

You can miss a rail by one pixel and the punishment is that you have done no damage, you have missed. Why should rockets get softer treatment on this?

Because hitscan weapons suffer a lot less of the issue ? np to aim at body height

Suffer vs the intrinsic difference between the weapon types.

If it were possible for splash around corners (i.e., you didn't need to draw a straight line), would that be a better solution, ideally?

You can miss a rail by one pixel and the punishment is that you have done no damage, you have missed. Why should rockets get softer treatment on this?

The difference is that the rail has no splash. Rockets do. If you were on a flat plane and missed a rail by one pixel, yea, you missed. If you were on a flat plane and missed a rocket shot at someone's feet by one pixel, you get damage because that's how the weapon functions. Of course RL gets a different (not "softer") treatment because it's a different weapon.

The maps do need to be designed with the understanding of how explosions splash through brushes. But that also affords map makers interesting opportunities. There's quite a few maps that utilize this in clever ways.

I can understand the CPM rationale but I think it has more draw backs than benefits.

If it were possible for splash around corners (i.e., you didn't need to draw a straight line), would that be a better solution, ideally?

My objection to this is that it really damages the height advantage with rockets, someone below you can splash the vertical face of a ledge you're standing on but not over the edge of and potentially hit you, which seems ridiculous to me. It's more interesting if rockets from below are much weaker as you either need a direct hit or to splash off something near the enemy where the geometry allows the splash to hit them naturally.

I can agree with that reasoning. It is pretty convincing to me. But there is the consequence that rockets are less reliable in other places, though.

I guess there's no way of getting both? Making rockets more effective for the player with the height advantage but not making rockets suck ass on stairs or places where there's angled brushes where a player can walk?

There may be but we haven't thought of it yet, feel free to play around with ideas. A couple of points on that though - generally you'd want a solution that didn't require modification of maps, it should be in the code and remember that you cannot rely on things like the size and shape of a brush, one 8 unit brush might be a little step, another might be a piece of trim in a multilayered ledge.

Does this happen much outside of aerowalk?

Could you give mappers the option to set splash through on certain brushes? Is that possible? You could fix stairs and all other sorts of small, angled brushes to allow splash (maybe even making the splash through distance itself adjustable from 1u to unlimited) but then areas where you want height to be a stronger advantage, you leave these without splash through?

The RA stairs on Aerowalk are probably the worst offender. The crack in the floor near shotgun on 3a is a nice other example but really any stairs or angled brushes where players are traveling a lot. It becomes instinctive that rockets can be unreliable in these situations.

You could do that, I basically suggested it earlier in our conversation. The problem with that is you need the mapper to modify their map and mappers will forget or do it inconsistently. It's really bad practice to have gameplay rely on mappers using or not using certain additional effect brushes. I don't know if the aerowalk mapper for CPMA is still around or would be willing to redo the map for example.

You think it's "bad practice" because of quality/consistency control? In an ideal case -- all mappers used it consistently and appropriately -- would it still be an issue?

Since this is a Reflex thread, I should mention that Reflex has more control in this regard as the "official" MM map pool is selected and maps are provided from the centralized workshop. Callvoting a map like Astronomybeta in CPM, though, is like a box of chocolates, depending on who's server you're on. It's sometimes difficult to determine whether you're even playing on the latest version of a map because it's so decentralized.

Don't worry entik. Qc duel will fail and be forgotten and reflex will reign supreme.

well said

hey man, this might be a bit off topic but when is TC3 coming out? thanks bud

Sure, pay me $500 and I'll get right on it.

Newborn is not Arqoon. Period. Arqoon was the main guy behind CPMA.

And not even Newborn is a part of Reflex anymore. The CPMA dev roots are gone.

arQon, not arqoon.

CPMA dev roots are still there. :)

So who is left?

edit: People here are posting bibles of text, but not one person has responded to the actual question rofl. Is there a CPMA dev still involved in Reflex? If so, who?

At the end of the day if there's no CPMA devs left in the project then Reflex is not made by the CPMA devs anymore, so they shouldn't be advertising Reflex like it is made by the CPMA devs. To me it seems like the remaining devs are now just straight up lying now that Newborn is not in the project.

It's already quite shady how when Newborn was still making Reflex the game was being advertised as made by CPMA devs, that when Arqon wasn't involved and Arqon was the only CPMA dev that mattered, not the secondary devs like Newborn. left.

Eh, I didn't mean for the reflex dev team actually, but rather the cpma dev team. You are VERY much misinformed if you think arQon is the only one that mattered.

0

Electro and shooter can be praised for the great game reflex is. Same goes for newborn. No one said otherwise.

Team splits happen for whatever reason, no need for drama here.

.

Honestly the idea that xero somehow made all these people play CPMA over Reflex is absurd.

"all the zerg ESR community accepts as gospel or gives a shit about, is whatever id software shits out."

Fuck id software. Not even going to bother with them ever again.

I don't know if it's a coincidence or anything but I lost interest in reflex after newborn left. He made me interested in the game to start with, and from talking to him he was very passionate about it so I'm not sure what could have made him leave.

Arqoon and Reborn, total nobodies, amirite??

it's arQon not Arqoon. And he never was the only CPMA dev.

it's newborn not reborn, and newborn never was the only reflex dev.

Arqon gon jinn, the jedi master. :D

Also, newborn is reborn now that reborn is diabotical. :D

Newborn abandoned it? Not that I know the guy but didn't he sacrifice quite a lot to make it happen? (like working full-time on it for at least a year)

Was it recently and for any particular reason?

Happened during this update.

A lot of time and life savings.

true

reborn gave up on it because game went into blind alley and he knew it is more hopeless than warsow

gotta hand to the guys they wrote amazing engine, and this robot model looks dank, but rest of the game simply doesnt live up to what it was suposed to be

newborn did operations and support and had some input into design discussions but the majority of the design work was the various design leads (revelation, swelt and me) and design team with arQon proving a Linus Torvalds-style high implementation bar and rigorous bullshit detection. Ideas came from the community, other games and mods and all over and were put through the crucible of heavy discussion and dev mode testing with players.

There was not that much continuity between CPMA and Reflex, Reflex is more like Warsow in that it was made by talented people who came from the CPMA community who wanted to take things in their own direction from a CPMA-ish starting point.

CPMA had a great design team. I always felt swelt didn't get enough credit. His maps made cpm TDM really special imo.

Maps by Swelt - All awesome. I really miss playing Powahaus. Very unique.

Some are missing. I for one loved nodm12 :)

Yes, swelt was incredible as a design lead and a mapper. He's very good at gameplay and people management, it's a pity he's disappeared from the scene.

'with arQon proving a Linus Torvalds-style high implementation bar and rigorous bullshit detection. Ideas came from the community, other games and mods and all over and were put through the crucible of heavy discussion and dev mode testing with players.'

Well put. This is exactly what the aFPS community lacks and I personally think Reflex lacks also.

Hmm, sounds nice until you consider the infamous ammo update that single-handedly sent CPM into an ice age, right in the midst of a huge tournament (CMCXL). ArQon was smart but not smart enough to stop a clearly stupid gameplay change from happening...

That was my fault mostly. arQon forced it to a decision before I was convinced it was ready but it was my decision. I regard it as a huge error as we did not consider the potential impact on the tournament. I do think the community overreacted however, the game is perfectly playable with less ammo, though I am still in two minds about whether it was the right or wrong direction and if more ammo boxes might have been required. Putting pressure on ammo should increase depth, it shouldn't be a non-concern but it does seem to reduce the fun. I would be open to reexamining that change with the community.

The problem with doing something like CPMA is that we got so much hate and push back for every single thing that it became hard to listen to genuine concerns.

That's refreshing to see someone take ownership of a mistake/error. I appreciate it.

It sucked especially for me because I think it happened shortly after I started playing and I remember the activity plummeted. I didn't have strong opinions about it (being newish) and maybe the community overreacted, but the outcome was it killed the game's popularity for a while and also put an end to what was already looking like an awesome tournament.

Also, I absolutely 100% agree with your last paragraph. CPM, at this point cannot have any major gameplay changes without fragmenting the community. That was an attraction of PMX, right? You would've had more flexibility with the design because it's inherently some new. You'd have more leeway. And that can be said of the Reflex community who all seem very accepting of gameplay changes and new ideas. It gives the devs more space to design the game.

And that can be said of the Reflex community who all seem very accepting of gameplay changes and new ideas. It gives the devs more space to design the game.

Too bad the devs don't give a shit/don't have a clue about gameplay. I remember when the LG buff came out. I played one duel with Terifire and after those ten minutes I said that they would revert something so obviously OP within two weeks. It took more than a year. We're in a similar position with rockets right now. Whether you think they should be nerfed or whether you think the rest should be buffed (like I do), the fact remains the dev sure as hell don't give a shit.

Gameplay is just an afterthought for them. Yes, realistically, only 1% of your population is really gonna care about gameplay (see: this thread where all these quake connoisseurs don't even mention gameplay once), but in a game as niche as Reflex, your 1% is what keeps the game alive through their dedication/obsession/addiction. The fact the devs so obviously ignore that important core is spitting in the face of the people who have given so much for the game.

The most damning example was their post release interview. 30 minutes of chatter without even mentioning gameplay once. I was patient with the game for a very, very long time (two years in fact). I kept telling myself that it was still in alpha so I couldn't expect it to live up to my standards yet. I was shocked when I heard the devs were gonna release because gameplay was and is still such an incredible mess. Well, they released, they got no more excuses now.

How do you know what the devs are thinking regarding gameplay? I'd wait until season 1 is over to judge... That would be a good time to tweak gameplay, not in the midst of a season. I've read so many posts on the current RL balance and it's very unclear what people actually want. If that's my take, I can only assume the devs have an even worse impression about RL balance ambivalence.

Plus, exp plus, seems to me, was proof the devs are trying to respond to community input regarding gameplay. They put time/effort into making exp plus happen and the community just could not come together on a single ruleset.

Oh yes they care so much. That's why they haven't responded to their own focus group for months (exp forums).

I'm not saying you shouldn't play Reflex. Play whatever you like and I'll play what I like. I just want to give some counterpoint to what you're saying, one Reflex supporter to another.

Do you speak for everyone regarding RL balance? What are the devs supposed to do? Listen to just you and Terifire?

If only they had some sort of testers group composed of intelligent and skilled players. Reading through the latest thread there, there's definitely a consensus:
- IC is too weak/rockets are too strong
- Bolt is weaker than rockets and IC
( - I think there's a soft consensus that reflex 1v1 is way too item centric)

There's no consensus on the solution, but plenty of suggestions. The devs however remain completely silent. Let me also remind you that the latest gameplay changes are essentially scavenged from expplus. The league ruleset that turned into the current competitive ruleset was also widely disliked from its release because IC is too weak/rockets are too strong.

The only valid argument on the dev inactivity is that they've been busy with other, more important things, but in my eyes, there's a difference between lowering priority and completely ignoring an issue.

e: there's also no reason to mention Terifire like he's some sort of accomplice of mine. I only mentioned his name to illustrate that I played someone who knew how to shaft. Our views on balance have ranged from somewhat similar to polar opposites.

Sorry, but suggestions are not enough. If they agree with one suggestion, chances are they will "spit in the face" of some group of players that thinks it should take a different direction.

Also, it doesn't matter who I say. You and LoneZilla? You and Joe? Whoever. No one speaks for the community because there's no consensus. You basically prove my point for me. "Somewhat similar to polar opposites." Exactly my point. Thank you. No one has all the answers and so what are you expecting from the devs? They couldn't even satisfy you and Terifire because you two don't agree on everything.

You guys need like a Reflex Congress or something.

You can all elect a representative for your niche, and they can vote on "bills" about gameplay changes. :D

chances are they will "spit in the face" of some group of players that thinks it should take a different direction.

My problem is not that I disagree with their gameplay direction, it's that they're not doing anything regarding gameplay at all -- let me remind you again the last change to competitive that came from the devs was the lg buff more than a year ago.

If they nerf rockets, I'll boot up Reflex, check it out and give my feedback to the devs. I don't want rockets to be nerfed, I think that'd be the wrong way to deal with the weapon balance issues, but I want to see changes, period. I want to see that the devs actually care about the only thing I care about: gameplay. If they keep showing signs that they don't and that the gameplay is gonna stay the way it is now, then I won't be booting up Reflex. I played Reflex with the hope that it'd become a great game. I want to do what I can to help with that. I want to test and give my humble opinion. The problem is that there's nothing to test.

Let me just say this: I want Reflex to succeed. For me, that doesn't mean that there are a million different cosmetics, a million different maps or a million players concurrently at all times. For me, Reflex has succeeded when there's good gameplay, even if that means I'll play with the same three people over and over again. Right now, I don't think Reflex has good gameplay because it promotes routing over combat, leading to (relatively) shallow and repetitive duels. Say what you will about CPM, at least it was an fps game where you were mostly shooting things, instead of running around in the same circle like a fucking hamster.

Also, you're kinda implying I just want the devs to implement my ideas unquestioningly. That LG buff I keep mentioning so much? I pushed for that. It was a bad idea and it should've been changed, but I'm glad they tried it at least.

Not doing anything is still a direction. It's called the status quo. Change for the sake of change is stupid. You've admitted there's no consensus and there's no obvious, objectively better direction the gameplay should head in.

How about change for the sake of improvement? You do realise that even the guy who made the current comp ruleset (Ramagan) didn't like it and tried to change it to something else?

Let me say it as clearly as I can: I am not your enemy. I am not trying to persuade people not to play Reflex. I do not want everybody to go back to CPM. I want Reflex to be a good game. You're a reasonable person. Start being reasonable. Stop with this kneejerk Reflex defence force shit. The devs aren't infallible.

What you think is an improvement is not what everyone thinks is an improvement. You look at the community and see what people's reactions are and everyone is all over the place on what is good, what is bad, and what is ugly. How do you judge what is an improvement? Again, do you speak for the community? Should the devs just listen to what you think an improvement would be? It doesn't matter if Ramagan wanted to do "something else" because what he wanted to change it to may very well have been a step backwards for the gameplay. How do you know without testing it yourself? Is Ramagan infallible? (Hence why "exp plus" was a GOOD thing, not a bad thing like Terifire argues.) When there's no consensus on what the "improvement" would be, the status quo prevails.

Also, I don't think of you as an enemy nor anyone. Life is too short for having "enemies" over video game opinions. I don't take this personally and neither should you. But when you said the devs "spit in the face of the community", a truly hyperbolic statement. I think that ridiculous argument deserves refuting. Since I've started following Reflex's development, I've never gotten the impression they don't care about the community, that they don't listen, or any of that. It's completely off base with the experience I've had and so yea, I'm going to push back on the bullshit.

Stop with this kneejerk Reflex defence force shit. The devs aren't infallible.

I never said the devs were infallible. You've got it backwards. You're holding them to ridiculous standards as if they're supposed to be infalliable. I think they've exceeded expectations for a group of guys who have been developing this game in their spare time. It's one thing to TALK big but it's entirely another to DELIVER quality updates for YEARS. They deserve a lot of credit for what they've been able to accomplish. And here you are, acting like they're either lazy, don't care, or don't know what they're doing. Sorry, I won't apologize for standing up to that level of bullshit.

The game is NOT perfect or finished. I'm not saying that. The devs aren't saying that. No one (afaik) is saying that. There's still lots of stuff I would like to see -- client side replays, match time in/out, various callvote options, more love for race mode, movers/triggers FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, sound export w/ replay export, etc. -- but every update has been a step in the right direction for the OVERALL improvement of the game.

I'm not saying expectations should be low but you need to appreciate they're balancing a much more complex situation than you give them credit for, especially given their limited resources (time and money). They cannot tackle every change the community wants all at once. They need to be strategic, especially leading up to the official launch out of early access -- the game needed to be essentially a complete ecosystem for all players of all skillsets, not just about what 1% of their player base wants.

They are developing a game that could, presumably, be played 10-20 years much like QW, Q2, Q3/QL, CPM, etc.. This game WILL have a lasting legacy as long as people are supporting it and playing it. I'm happy to support and defend them when it seems the popular thing to do these days (at least on ESR) is not give them any credit at all or flat out shit on them for one or another imagined sleight. Have you said a single positive thing about Reflex in this thread? (EDIT: I just read every post you've made in this thread and no, not a single positive thing was mentioned.)

I bought Reflex for like $10 and gotten hundreds of hours out of it. That's a pretty good deal, imo. But your criticisms -- particularly that they "spit in the face" of the community or whatever -- is completely distorted and unfair.

Thinking back a year, it's hard not to appreciate the progress they've made across the board. Excluding the DOZENS of point releases (which includes GAMEPLAY tweaks), they've made 9 big updates over the past 12 months (roughly 1 every 40 days).

0.43 (May 17): Competitive, casual, and experimental rulesets added
0.44 (June 2): Awards added, XP system/ranks added, Steam stats
0.45 (July 10): Character customization, better player animations, drop system
0.46 (August 25): Training mode added
0.47 (October 27): Addon support, Mutators, Experimental Plus
0.48 (January 10): Matchmaking, bridge tool (map editor)
0.49 (January 30): Matchmaking refinements (vote system, party system, spectate games, etc.)
1.0 (March 1): Launch, bots, season 1 starts, ladder/stats, rewards
1.1 (April 18): Proving Grounds playlist, Announcer

Let me just say this: I want Reflex to succeed. For me, that doesn't mean that there are a million different cosmetics, a million different maps or a million players concurrently at all times.

It's not just cosmetics and maps but features that makes Reflex better: built-in map editor, built-in replay editor, built-in race mode, matchmaking, party system, and ladder, all the various modes and mutators, etc.

To what extent success should be defined by the number of active players is difficult to say because I greatly enjoyed CPM for a long time and it was a very unpopular game in North America. Sometimes I spent an hour bugging people in IRC before I could get a single duel. The boringness of this state of affairs was only barely redeemed by the constant banter in IRC.

For me, Reflex has succeeded when there's good gameplay, even if that means I'll play with the same three people over and over again

Lots of people enjoy Reflex's gameplay. I'm one of them. I don't think it's perfect and it could be better but implying the gameplay is bad -- yes, that's what you're doing -- undermines the credibility of your argument. There are more people playing Reflex than CPM. You think they do that if they don't enjoy playing the game? How far does your head have to be up your ass to think that?

Also, it's really selfish to think it'd be okay if there were only three people playing Reflex (your words, not mine) as long as you feel good about the gameplay. It may be okay for you to play the same three people over and over again, but that's precisely why I stopped playing CPM and moved to Reflex.
I don't know when you started CPM but I spent roughly 10 years doing that. You think that's all you need? Three players playing the same three maps on rotation? You're in luck. CPM exists. GLHF.

You've done this rhetorical contortion act. You admit only 1% of players are bothered by the gameplay balance. You admit there's no consensus on what gameplay change(s) should be. And then you damn the devs for not taking action which, ironically, is exactly the opposite of what Terifire is damning them for (taking action with the "exp plus" ruleset). It's like, "Not many people care about the problem. No one agrees what the solution is. But you're spitting in my face because YOU haven't solved it." Right...

I'm getting angry over this shit. The only reason I keep replying instead of fucking off like I usually do in retarded situations like this is because I respect you. In the past you were always reasonable. You are not being fucking reasonable right now. Here's my argument for the last time:

I only care about gameplay. I think the gameplay is bad. The devs haven't made any real gameplay changes for over a year. Yes, the feature set is amazing, but like I already said, my primary concern is gameplay. Yes, they did expplus, but that was dumb and anybody with half a brain could see it coming. So, since I only care about the gameplay and the gameplay is not what I wanted it be for a very long time now, I'm disappointed in Reflex.

I'm not interested in getting ENGLISH_LEARNED about my shoddy arguments because I'm not trying to convince anybody, I'm just giving my opinion. Honestly, the main reason I'm pissed is because you just seem to assume that because I disagree with you I'm retarded: uninformed and incapable of understanding my own arguments. Have you ever considered that I considered everything you said before I even made the post that started all this? Reflex was a big part of my life for a very long time. I did not come to this point of view overnight.

Seriously dude, I lost a lot of respect for you because you seem to have none for me. Take a step back and look at what you're doing.

One last thing: yes I probably haven't said one good thing about Reflex in this thread. I also casted tournaments and leagues for well over 6 months, made about a dozen demo reviews with the intent to help new players, helped tons of new players with movement and whatnot, tried to run weekly ctf games and ran two draft cups. I tried to give a lot to this game. You cannot pretend I'm just another hater.

I'm sorry, I don't care whether you're angry or not. whether you have respect for me or not. You seem to think this is personal but it is not.

The devs haven't made any real gameplay changes for over a year.

W R O N G


(May 12, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topi...-im-tired/
(June 2, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topi...41-awards/
(June 29, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/3761-reflex-0443/
(August 25, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/3953-reflex-0461/
(September 2, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/3977-reflex-0462/
(September 5, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/3989-reflex-0463/
(September 26, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/4043-reflex-0464/
(October 27, 2016) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topic/4078-reflex-0470/
(January 12, 2017) http://forums.reflexarena.com/index.php?/topi...justments/

These aren't "REAL" gameplay adjustments? It seems to me that that the devs have been paying attention to gameplay adjustments over the past year.

I'm not interested in getting ENGLISH_LEARNED about my shoddy arguments because I'm not trying to convince anybody, I'm just giving my opinion.

A couple of points here. First, if you have a shoddy argument, it's probably because you don't have much of an argument. I'm not trying to be mean but that's something to seriously consider.

Secondly, am I not sharing my opinion? True, my opinion is that you're wrong and I dispute all these various points you're making. You can take that however you want, but let me say, we don't have to agree. I have a pretty strong opinion. You have your opinion. Life goes on?

I think you did great things for Reflex. That's great. And nothing you've said here diminishes that. But if you're here sharing your opinions and making an argument, that doesn't put your opinion beyond or above anyone else's. Sorry, but it does not mean what you post (especially if it's directed at someone else's comments like all your posts have been) are immune from criticism especially when they're predicated on things which are NOT TRUE (see above).

Your first post in this thread was a response to something positive I said about Reflex. You seemed quite intent on criticizing this. See here: http://www.esreality.com/post/2871163/re-refl...pid2869107

From there, you escalated it with hyperbole and sarcasm. I didn't take it personally but you clearly started out of the gate with a really strong opinion and came off pretty arrogant/rude. So if you're going to be saying,

Take a step back and look at what you're doing.

I gotta say the same thing to you. WHAT?! You played a bigger role in escalating this and keeping it going as long as it did.

Listen to just you and Terifire?

That would be much better for Reflex than to listen to herd of kids from CS/COD that hasn't any experience in afps.

Why do you bring me into this? I never said such things.

Doesn't matter who I say. You, Pill, Rama, Kyto, Joe Blow, who the fuck ever, it doesn't matter. Pick anyone. The point remains. There's no consensus on what the balance should be. How would the devs make that judgment based on the community input when it's split? If it WAS a consensus, like Pill claims it is/was, why were all the exp plus rulesets different? Shouldn't they have been identical?

It's really bullshit to blame devs for a) not listening or willingness to work with the community or b) not trying to tweak gameplay balance. Read the fucking change notes for exp plus. Does that jive with what Pill called it, that they "spit in the face of the community"?

I wouldn't call letting the community come come up with a ruleset "trying to tweak the gameplay balance". I don't see Pill saying a concensus was reached, in fact, the exact opposite happened which was somewhat of a shitshow.

Yep, exactly. We have the advantage of hindsight but I'm sure the devs hoped that if there was clearly a consensus for changes, those would've emerged amongst the "intelligent and skilled" players chosen for the experimental/tester group. There was not. So the status quo remains.

I don't fault the devs for trying. People asked for it. The devs delivered. I don't see them as shifting the responsibility onto the community. I see them as reacting to the community request. That's much better than the opposite (ignoring the community).

Developing a game isn't like driving a speed boat where you can veer one way and then another. It's like steering a cruise ship. You've gotta be sure you have a good direction to go in and those decisions are very important. See what happened with CPM's infamous ammo update which practically killed the game over night. The devs have avoided major blunders like that one but there seems to be a dearth of credit given.

You're sure the devs hoped but well, basing your gameplay design on hoping isn't a very good sign to me. I do fault the devs for trying, who cares if people asked for it the devs should not have to cater to the communities whine.

I don't see them as shifting the responsibility onto the community. I see them as reacting to the community request.

It can be both.

You saying it's hoping doesn't make it hoping. That's not how this works.

I didn't say it's hoping, you did, and I said that was a bad point if any.

I said the devs hoped. You think this is an exact science? How could anyone say exactly what the outcome is going to be of a change to the game like that where you're dealing with groups of people? That's so unfair to expect that TP can anticipate exactly what the reaction will be. Hence, they do the best they can and "hope" for a good outcome. If you really, truly believe this is an exact science where devs never have to take risks, then that's a whole other conversation...

I said the devs hoped.

Indeed.

That's so unfair to expect that TP can anticipate exactly what the reaction will be.

Pretty much everyone I talked to saw the shitstorm coming.

Hence, they do the best they can and "hope" for a good outcome.

Well here we differ on what the best action was, which is kinda what this discussion is about, no?

If you really, truly believe this is an exact science where devs never have to take risks, then that's a whole other conversation...

Stop making weird assumptions about what I may be thinking or believing, I never said it's an exact science.

Pretty much everyone I talked to saw the shitstorm coming.

That's very easy to say in retrospect. When were you posting on the forums arguing against Exp Plus when it came out? You clearly believe very strongly it's a bad idea if you're posting all these comments on ESR about how wrong they are. But you risk nothing by saying something like this in retrospect. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Well here we differ on what the best action was, which is kinda what this discussion is about, no?

And what is the best action? You haven't said anything explicit that you would have done.

Stop making weird assumptions about what I may be thinking or believing, I never said it's an exact science.

That's the only way it can be taken in the context it was used and which you've cherrypicked it from. If I'm wrong, please elaborate. Spell it out.

It was honestly easy to say when they announced it, because it was easy to predict. I've made my feelings about that choice known before, but I CBA looking through my comment history on any forum to find anything related to it... But yeah it has nothing to do with hindsight.

The best action in my opinion would have been not to do the exp plus release.

You're wrong, no need to elaborate, I don't need to justify why your assumption is wrong.

No, I think you cannot elaborate because you don't even understand your own argument. Nothing is lost by letting the community test their own ideas. You can "hope" someone comes up with something great but NOTHING is lost and NOTHING is risked. 1) There was already an existing competitive ruleset which had been tweaked for years, 2) the devs were under no obligation to adopt anything that came out of the exp plus ruleset, 3) the exp plus did not disrupt any other updates other than probably some delay for implementing the exp plus functionality.

Read the change notes and get your facts straight.

No, I think you cannot elaborate because you don't even understand your own argument.

And this is where discussion stops, do you even read the shit you write?

I do. Do you read the shit you write?

If you really, truly believe this is an exact science where devs never have to take risks, then that's a whole other conversation...

I never said anything about it being an exact science, nor did I imply it.

That's the only way it can be taken in the context it was used and which you've cherrypicked it from. If I'm wrong, please elaborate. Spell it out.

What context are you reading? It's certainly not anything I said.

So you want me to elaborate on a point I did not make, and when I say you're wrong you say I don't even understand my own argument (which is not the argument I made, but the argument you said I made).

No, I think you cannot elaborate because you don't even understand your own argument.

You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with your assumptions about what my argument are.

Then why are you saying that "hoping" something turns out well is a bad sign? Between metaphysical certitude and random chance, it's wrong to be optimistic about a good outcome? The devs can't force a community consensus on a ruleset and they cannot predict exactly what the reaction will be. So why is hoping "not a very good sign"?

If you "hope" Reflex is a success, is that "not a very good sign"? Obviously, knowing Reflex will be successful is better than hoping but I don't think anyone can know. Being optimistic about something you do not have absolute control over is a "not a very good sign"? Tell me what context you meant.

In the context that I used "hope", the devs did something that had the potential for a great outcome. And I dispute your interpretation that it was a mistake. The upside potential outweighs the downside.

Exp plus actually made me realise I prefer CPM, to me it showed a lack of vision from the devs to place that 'responsibility' on the community.

If you need an excuse, I suppose that's as good as any. What are some of the other excuses to use? I think xero is keeping a list. You should let him know: "Reflex devs have no vision."

It's not an excuse, it's a valid point. You saying it's an excuse DOESN'T make it 'just an excuse'. That's not how any of this works.

So if they had NOT added exp plus, you would never have realized you prefer CPM? I didn't realize your preference for games depends on what you think the devs are thinking/planning.

I interpret the exp plus as the devs trying to respond to the community asking to test this or that change. Remember, they had created the experimental (no "plus") ruleset initially to test out incremental changes to the gameplay before they were added to the competitive ruleset. And everyone had ideas. Tweak this, tweak that. The devs said they couldn't keep up with ideas so the made experimental plus to allow some (not all) folks to test out their ideas without waiting on the devs. I thought this was great and testified to the fact the devs WANT the community to be involved. Not as them dodging responsibility.

But you see it as a lack of vision for the game? You've made a decision about how you want to take it. To you it is what? A mistake by the devs for involving the community like that, that it was their responsibility to determine the gameplay? If they had a vision, they wouldn't have needed to listen to the community.

So we each made a decision to take it one way or another. And that decision is influenced by pre-existing feelings about the game overall.

I already prefered cpm at that point, they showed they had no vision so that sealed the deal. They shouldn't have to try all the ideas the community spews at them, that's a rather silly gameplay design process and very inefficient. And yes, OFCOURSE it is the devs responsibility to determine the gameplay.

This has nothing to do with pre-existing feelings about the game, they just decide to let the community dick around, and dick around the community did.

For what it's worth, I do think it was a mistake, it didn't really get us anywhere...

They shouldn't try every idea and they didn't, obviously. They weren't required to implement anything the community did with exp plus. Also, the devs still have the responsibility of actually selecting and adopting a ruleset. NOT selecting one of the community rulesets was also a decision. It's still their responsibility, regardless of who comes up with it.

But if someone did come up with a really great ruleset, would you blame the devs for adopting it? If exp plus ended up be really successful and the community had come to a consensus on a really great ruleset, would you still be arguing it was a bad idea because the devs displayed a lack of "vision"? I doubt it...

Does "vision" only apply to gameplay? Can't the larger game, with all the features, aesthetics/cosmetics, modes, etc., also constitute a "vision"? Moreover, the gameplay has been in development for years and years. It takes a stretch of the imagination to say there's nothing there gameplay wise. It's been tweaked and changed for years. Are you arguing they should go after some totally different AFPS or just tweaking some variables?

Again, you've made a decision to take it as a negative when there's clearly positive aspects to exp plus. You yourself said it's not black and white and here you are saying it's black and white.

Vision doesn't only apply to gameplay but yet, it does apply to gameplay.

Saying gameplay has developed for years only makes me more sad about the state it's in right now.

My opinion on this isn't very black and white, though yes I do think this was a bad decision, I am not saying this bad decision makes the entire game bad, else why would I still have spent time making videos and maps for it?

So devs have vision in one aspect and not another? Or, they have vision and you just think they don't think don't because they haven't made the gameplay changes YOU want. So "lack of vision" is not an objective observation, it's just the excuse you tell yourself.

Nowhere did I mention any gameplay changes I want to see, so no, I don't 'think they have no vision because I did not see the changes I wanted'. I think they have no vision because they let the community figure out rulesets, as I have said many times. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

It's like you take my points, make strange assumptions, then pretend like those assumptions were my original points.

No, they didn't "let the community figure out the rulesets". There was already a ruleset before exp plus. They only added a means for the community to test on their own ruleset ideas and provide suggestions. Stop pretending like Reflex did not have a lot of gameplay testing and tweaks before exp plus.

I'm not pretending it didn't, sigh.

But at that point it was very much op to the community, as leagues were being run with custom rulesets.
Ofcourse there was a ruleset before exp plus, no need to clarify.

I don't know why you're sighing. You explicitly stated the community had to figure out the ruleset which is NOT TRUE. It's the responsibility of the devs to determine what the official ruleset is.. The creation of the "exp plus" ruleset did not change that. Stop distorting something that's good (community involvement and input) into something bad.

'twas a good year ))

my butthole is still sore :(

It got more Quake in it than QC, thats for sure

thats pretty ignorant.
QC has everything what every Quake had so far.

yeah, like console commands.

yes and for what? :)

if you actually played the closed beta you'd know that the settings are completely deficient

its not final yet, so why would i complain now?
just tell it to the devs and give feedback, thats what they ask for.
those nonsense comments about "QC isnt Quake" wont help anyone.

Good thing your feedback will.
:negro_ok_hand:

If I could choose between a game that's almost 100% Quake rip-off and one that's 50% Quake and 50% Overwatch rip-off, I'd take the former any day.

50% Overwatch.

you simply have zero clue.

Liked the art of Furnace, also good thing about the announcer and the loser getting some CP

This failed when they set that ridiculously stupid fucking kickstarter amount.

Labor is expensive, and one has to live. I'm not familiar with nz but in western Europe, the amount they asked was like 3 people for a year. Hardly a stupid amount.

It was a stupid amount. 360.000 dollars is supposed to be required to maintain 3 people for a year? Maybe if you're planning on living the movida in Paris.
Otherwise with 100.000 euros one can live between 5 and 7 years, easily. Even more actually, but let's say that.

Labor cost is NOT just wages. In france, which is not really an exeption in that regard, you cost your company roughly twice your wages. And no, you dont live 7 years on 100k€.

Dunno precisely about nz but it is was definitly not a stupis amount. 360k€ is chump change for a business.

you really need to check your math

They set that amount because it was the amount that could lure them out of their existing jobs for a year to focus fulltime on Reflex. I earn more than 120k a year, and I couldn't justify leaving my current position which pays for my life and property and whatnot to work for something that a bunch of retarded faggots here on ESR are gonna reject anyway because it's deviated in some minute way from their holy CPM, for the sums that people on ESR think are acceptable, let alone free which some morons here seem to think is acceptable too.

lol

Reflex is the best quake game :c

esr be like: "quake champions is not enough like quake3!" - "reflex is too much like quake3!"

It's settled. We're going to online checkers!

How this world would look like without aircontrol?

That's why we play QL, because it is the most like and unlike quake 3 :O

does it support vq3 movement yet?

Why would it?
It's a fun game.

It would be great if this was opened up to modders so that people could put in whatever physics they wanted...

They could really keep everyone happy if they had a QL mode, a QW mode etc etc.

Actually, it does, apart from overbounces and things like half beat strafing. All the other vq3 movement mechanics are contained in the reflex movement system. It's just that there's other stuff as well, like air control. But you don't have to use this other stuff.

best game :D they really improved performance and with the q3 sound pack feels really good

Yeah the sound replacement was definitely needed

Even tho i dont like air control much i'll buy it to support it.

Btw QC movements are a joke. Many things are missing and i'm sure they won't be there in the final product. It's not an Alpha it's a beta to test balance and test hardware on a large spectrum. Game design is already done.

It's a dumbed down quake with shity kidy cosmetics and some retarded MOBA mixed in.

Oh and btw most vocal ppl on this website are dumb ppl so don't bother answering to them.

ok

Oh cool it's this thread again. Profanum has posted, I think we're just waiting on memphis and lolograde and this should be a real party.

I hope the reflex team manage to sell the engine to a few other game dev startups and recoup some of their losses. It is really a great engine with map building second to none.... someone with some fresh ideas could really pump out a great game quite easily and quickly.

FPS games in 2017 :=)

Reflex owns. I really dont get the hostility toward it from the quake community. It's one of the best 'spiritual successors' you could ever get and divorced from id software's bullshit and neglect. Unfortunately I think it came out about 5 years too late, it could have really taken up the mantle but now the remnants of the quake community are scattered and no one really wants to support anything.

I just wanted to highlight how well made Reflex actually is. If you ever want to demonstrate smoothness on an engine and performance level just load that shit up.

It could definitely be improved.... the sounds and player models are a big let down but the engine is great

I dont mind the models. Agreed on the sounds tho. Replacing them with their q3 counterpart is easy enough tho.

There's still problem with enemies sounding just like you :@

True :(

For the sake of god, please stop posting reflex updates here at ESR - this community doesn't need it.

Local population totally deserves what is waiting for them very soon in an epic trainwreck called Quake Champions - and I already feel those sweet tears of joy.

ESR is a dead horse, don't beat it any more.

Omg, I'm remebering Godsmurf his whining on Clanbase about how Promode will weaken his precious VQ3

Omg I'm so old :'(

https://web.archive.org/web/20020306145103/http://www.promode.org/index.php3?load=comments&aid=196

Bonus points for the outrageously cocky arQon tone which made sure 99% of vq3ers would never touch CPMA. Kind of like a reverse Godsmurf rant.