on a related note I recently read Masters of Doom, highly recommended

doom is overrated, i can name dozens of other games today that are of the same gameplay quality including halo and cod series. id no longer has monopoly on good fps games, more like yet another id game to me. classics were pre-1999 id games, anything after that is just plain mainstream garbage. we have dozens of games now that have some kind of interesting plot and dozens upon dozens of good quality gameplay oriented games. anything else is just pure fanboyism.

You're overrated. COD uses idtech engine (quake 3) :) while halo is just shit.

q1-ql is the only id game series that i still play time to time, the rest is a single play through content for me, recently tried to play rage and the game is very hard to play, good game but nothing special. i am not saying newer id games are bad but seriously nothing that id has done since q3 is genre defining content. halo to me is a better game because it's the only longtime surviving series that still didn't fall on its face, whereas doom already had some ups and downs with doom 3 and doom 4 to me is just a copy of all recent fps games combined.

doom 4 to me is just a copy of all recent fps games combined.

All I need to hear.

You clearly didn't play much if any Doom16. Just another contrarian fishing for replies.

i really don't feel like i need to play it to be honest, way too many things about it i don't like including excessive gore and satanic imagery.

You were more fun when you pretended you're a retarded polish pitbull fan.

Next.

All I read was "cry cry cry you don't agree with my opinion so I have to revert to racial slurs blah blah cry cry cry."

Why don't you go fuck yourself? People are allowed to have their own opinions, yeah they might not agree with yours, so stop being a self-righteous twat.

lol is this a troll, or you really are that clueless? halo and COD with same quality of gameplay? REALLY? jeez. go back and play through doom with headphones cranked up in a dark room and tell me "halo and cod are just as good". pssssh, right?

Troll?

*puts on sun glasses and rides motorcycle into the sunset*

downgrading halo vs doom is just your fanboyism, no game on earth deserves this much butt-licking. halo is also just a game.

how old are you kids? halo is DEFINITELY "just a game"...doom is definitely a lot more than that, both in terms of being an amazing example of the new FPS genre of its time, as well as simply being an amazing game to play, regardless of the place it holds in history.

i have played doom a few times and nothing really makes me think its any better than any other fps game and satanic imagery is often way too creepy for me to digest. we should stop being like that when there is clearly no evidence that doom had any significant role on the fps genre, seriously if there was no doom someone would still make duke nukem 3d or some other game like that. games like halo and marathon series support that, and how many doom-like games do we really have today? bf4 and gta5 are still nothing like doom thematically, they obviously are the same genre but way less dark and twisted.

I imagine you being young, and not growing up with the original doom 1 and 2.

If that's true, I sort of see where you are coming from. This is a classic issues you can find with movies and music, where old guys just keep referring to some old icons that don't mean much to you.

However, here's a few points of why doom is a great game.

Doom is a game about competence and agency. Competence is the ability to be efficient in the world you live in. Agency is the sense of independence and autonomy where you feel you are not forced to play one way, but can express yourself. These feelings are achieved in the following way.

The weapons and the enemies are tuned so that you have to make a choice of prioritization. Do I kill the shotgun guy mid-range, or do I kill the imp close range, or do I dodge to the left so that the shotgun guy kills the imp while I chip health off the cacodemon far range? These are choices you constantly make and there is no definitive answer. The choices are based on your gears, your confidence in your ability with the weapons, and your assessment of the risk/reward, and if you talk to two doom fans and get to the details, they will all have their different strategies and opinions.

One aspect that contributes to this is what is called orthogonal design separation principle. Orthogonal comes from mathematics, and in this case means 'looking at different things that have nothing in common'. For example you can look at the amount of health, whether or not an enemy comes closer during combat, and how likely you are to pin them when shooting at them. If you put that on paper you realize how different and distinguishable all enemies in doom are.

On top of these very clear stats/behaviors, enemies have predictable AI. You know exactly what to expect from each one of them, and they are all simple when taken in isolation. However, the combination of them in a room is what makes the encounter special, and gives you many options.

Enemies are complemented with weapons and environment. Weapons are quite orthogonal in their definitions as well, and the presence or lack of a particular weapon changes combat drastically. The environment (exploding barrels, crushing ceilings, height difference) affect the way you chose to fight, and players become very quick at taking advantage of it.

All this might sound obvious and all, but it is not. Think how many shooter games have non-memorable enemies, where all shoot with a slight variation of a hitscan gun, have slightly varying health/stats, and have AI that are so advanced that they look random at best.

all that is cool but how much time do i actually play doom today? it would be a couple hours a month at best and none of these techniques really save an outdated game, i am simply saying that fps games in general have evolved way past doom's primitive mechanics, no matter how polished they are. there is no formula for a perfect game, some games just had passionate developer teams that put effort into creating new and unique things regardless of the techniques they used to achieve it.

Well now you're mixing things. You started saying Doom is overrated, and now you say it's outdated, and these are different things. Doom is old, but it's really good.

I figured you might be talking about Doom 2016, so let me reply separately about that.

I think the recent chapter of doom is a good sequel, and made me reconsider my opinion about id software, as I was expecting they would ruin the game.

There's a few reason I am a fan of what they did.

First, I liked their approach to the narrative. This is explain far better than I can in the videos above, but basically, they knew doom fans went there to kill demons, and they said fuck it, no reason to pretend to tell a story the canonical way (with some setup phase, an initial drama etc.) and cut all the shit to: you are badass, demons are afraid of you, and you will single-handedly mess up all the plans from the bad guys.

Second, I liked they kept the core of the combat about movement. If you stop you die, if you move you have a chance. This was less prominent in the original doom, but there were moments like that, and they were really exciting, so it's like they tried to focus on the best part of combat.

Third, I like the arcade approach to weapon upgrades and runes. There's no shit about making irreversible choices, and upgrades do have a strong impact in how you fight. This is more complicated than a list of stats where you add +1, as it requires to really understand how combat works, and come up with interesting variations of it. I believe they have succeeded.

The glory kill/chainsaw is a controversial bit, but I have a positive take on it. In traditional doom, ammo and health where part of level exploration. In doom 2016 level exploration is still rewarded, but primarily with upgrade points (though ammo and health is to be found). The main design shift of glory kills is to make health and armor fetching be part of combat, rather than exploration. This is new in Doom, and I believe it's a direct result of the combat arenas. Without it, you would be forced to run around the level in search of a health pack, which could be considered a distraction to the main reason you are there, which is to kill demons. Instead, health and ammo are packed in a risk reward mechanic and uses demons. Is it nonsensical? Yes, but there's that thing called suspension of disbelief and it works for me.

Overall, they did a good job. Doom 2016 is part of the doom family, and is a game I had a lot of fun with, more than any shooter in the last decade. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and I like them for knowing this and still going for it. There's really too much colonialism in game development these days, and I like those who stick to a particular fan base (especially when I belong to it).

Of course you can find games today that are superior to Doom. You have totally missed the point if you are trying to compare a game from 1993 with games developed decades later.

Get it? :>

even if i take in mind the fact that doom was made in 1993 it doesn't really make it more relevant today. it's kinda like saying that super mario bros set the tone for gameplay of modern games when it's obvious that super mario bros itself was built upon ideas from other games that came before it and wasn't really anything unique worth noting for an average gamer. doom today is very outdated and the are tons of games that are better in every respect including artstyle, even doom wads are better made than original doom games. in the end doom is simply a better know fps game from the past, but it doesn't make it anything unique from its kind.

The Super Mario Bros. example shows you know nothing about the subject in question.

Then again, it's a bit sad to know about it as trivia (not as work), therefore we all lose.

Who says that the game is relevant today besides from it's legacy? It is a game that was one of the first in the FPS genre, which it hugely defined and shaped. It is very relevant when looking at the history of games and pointing out which of them had cataclysmic influence.

We can claim that DOOM probably does not have any influence on today's average gamer, besides from the inherited influence of it's legacy, but what importance does their ignorance of the importance of classical games have to do with anything? A game is not revolutionary because of it's incremental improvements to its predecessor. It becomes revolutionary when it makes huge leaps in improvements which sets the baseline for new standards.

i think you overestimate dooms influence on todays shooters, if done today doom would at best get 60% reviews even if graphics looked modern. the gameplay mechanics set in doom only had incremental improvements over previous games like wolfenstein 3d (which itself was based on ultima underworld), there was still no mouselook etc. if you look at many other games like build engine games (dn3d, blood, shadow warrior), those games were leaps and bounds superior to doom games in every sense. that's why i am saying doom is simply the most know fps of its time, it has no merit even today other than historical value.

i wasnt actually around when doom launched as i was too young, when i first played doom, quake already came out so that might add to my experience of doom.

again i still don't think that doom over time had any influence as you still could find games like terminator future shock and others that came out shortly after doom and had much more interactive environments.

there were games that copied doom formula like marathon but they did look mediocre really so calling doom an influence is overestimation in my opinion, all games that carbon copied id games were very questionable in quality.

what i am getting at is that at its core just copying doom formula is not enough to make a great game, most games that did become popular really had to innovate and build upon doom gameplay or else they would fail to even impress anyone.

games like counter-strike and others really don't resemble doom formula and i bet that games like that would still exist even if doom was never published.

That is like saying that the first car doesn't have much influence of car designs today. You are totally missing the point.

I am not gonna nitpick every difference there was between Wolfenstein 3D, which also was amazing when it came out, and DOOM along with the following surge of FPS games that followed in the wake of DOOM, to argue which and which does not qualify as remarkable improvements worthy of praise. There seems to be a consensus in favor of DOOM, exactly because of the usual aspects it gets praised for. I am okay with holding on to this, and I will simply point out that if the games you mention are published later, then you are kinda begging the question.

there was a series of games before doom that also had first person perspective. way before wolfenstein 3d there were vector based games that had first person perspective. doom was basically a reskin of those games with slight improvements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aipGP5oAuWQ

No one is saying that games or FPS titles didn't exist before Doom, what people are trying to say is that none of them made such a huge cultural impact.

Bar fucking none. At one point, Doom was installed on more PCs than Windows operating system.

"In late 1995, Doom was estimated to be installed on more computers worldwide than Microsoft's new operating system Windows 95, despite million-dollar advertising campaigns for the latter.[15] The game's popularity prompted Bill Gates to briefly consider buying id Software."

I don't even know what you're trying to do here. Tell everyone that you didn't enjoy Doom 2016 as much as others did which in your views renders Doom 1 "not that impactful"

i don't think it made any significant impact since none of the games today resemble any of the doom games besides first person perspective which was invented in 1974. what you are trying to say is that every fps game today can be considered a doom clone, which it isn't. doom didn't really stand the test of time for me, even duke nukem 3d is more fun to play, so i don't really see how doom can claim fps genre as its invention. if you look at the youtube video in my post above, doom was a slight variation of those shooters with addition of hand animation and slightly more detailed levels and it doesn't change the fact that there were many other fps games before it that paved the way for the genre on all platforms.

i don't think it made any significant impact since none of the games today resemble any of the doom games

Do you understand what cultural impact is and how irrelevant stating "it doesn't resemble games of today" is?

what you are trying to say is that every fps game today can be considered a doom clone

Absolutely no one said that. Stop putting words in my or anyone else's mouth.

doom didn't really stand the test of time for me

Oh but Maze War and FPS games from "1974" did? Oddly enough Doom still has a huge following, whereas other shooters from that era simply do not. Again, you I'm not sure what you're trying to prove but Doom is a cult classic weather you THINK it is or not. It is indisputably one of the most influential games in the history even though shocking news, games from 2016 don't exactly resemble the simple design that worked in 1993.

duke nukem 3d is more fun to play

So is Bubble Bobble yet that doesn't have anything to do with it having an impact on gaming. How "fun" the game is does not determine whether it's a cult classic or not.

doom was a slight variation of those shooters with addition of hand animation and slightly more detailed levels and it doesn't change the fact that there were many other fps games before it that paved the way for the genre on all platforms.

Those small details, a dedicated team of heavy metal loving geeks coupled with Carmack's genius technology are what made Doom what it is.


"During the 1990s, online games started to move from a wide variety of LAN protocols (such as IPX) and onto the Internet using the TCP/IP protocol. Doom popularized the concept of deathmatch, where multiple players battle each other head-to-head, as a new form of online game. Since Doom, many first-person shooter games contain online components to allow deathmatch or arena style play. "


Notice how it says Doom and not "Duke was fun"?

Again, the game was installed on more PCs than Windows, how many of your games that you consider impactful could achieve that?

Also, you seem to be completely confused about what a cult classic means - can you name a game that can rub shoulders with Doom? I can negate every single title you mention with "it doesn't look like modern games" and "something similar was done before it". Using those two arguments I can destroy practically every game you throw at me.


What you also seem to be forgetting is that Doom was a product of its time, it cannot exist in modern day without skinny jeans, long hair and thick lenses on geeks driving old ferraris around.

And this is why it's so fondly remembered, it's a staple of an era.... which fortunately, Duke Nukem is not and neither are the other games you mentioned.



Have fun reading
Don't forget about this one

i think you again are overestimating dooms influence on modern games.

it's not enough for a small group of dedicated fans to change the industry as a whole if most people don't play doom, do you get what i am saying?

doom as is is a very primitive game and very few people would stand playing doom as it was released in 1993 without any source ports and so on.

the only thing that keeps doom alive today is the modding community and the source ports that dramatically change the gameplay in favour of modern looking graphics and ability to change anything in a game.

again i dare you to say that doom played in a dosbox would stand a chance against any modern looking game.

i am simply calling for a critical look at things and not overestimate a single game having any major influence on the industry as a whole.

you are maybe looking at meaning of influence a bit differently, doom influenced the FPS genre and showed how you can make FPS cool, that maze thing was made, but it was just that. Doom on the other hand made the technology bad-ass cool and showcased, that FPS can be made very interesting. And from that idea of cool fps more people/company big and small, were now following and developing fps genre in their own way instead of 2D flat screen commander ken type games, which was the popular choice back then.

So if you look at it form that prespective yes even modern games are influenced by doom , since doom made fps popular and convinced devs to shift form flat type games to fps games.

You are not addressing any of the arguments. Probably because you have no retorts.

i dare you to say that doom played in a dosbox would stand a chance against any modern looking game.

>What you also seem to be forgetting is that Doom was a product of its time, it cannot exist in modern day without skinny jeans, long hair and thick lenses on geeks driving old ferraris around.


Did you even try to read my post? It's not that hard.

You still fail to provide any examples of a game that you consider influential.

The fact that some devs dropped their ongoing project and people pursued the dream of making a doom-like game means that it was influential.

Furthermore, you said that doom played in a dosbox wouldn't stand a chance against any modern looking game - and I beg to differ. Doom is still played today in its original state.

You keep saying "modern games" while not realizing that Doom was a modern game once as well, and guess what, it swiped the floor with other titles in that year and probably few years later as well.


Again, try to come up with a title that is more influential than Doom. If you're gonna go with a shooter that has deathmatch mode - tough luck, Doom basically invented it so dig deeper.

i don't think any game can be called "influential" for more than a few years since any novelty wears of pretty quickly after you finish a game a few times or play a certain amount of hours in it, fps genre itself is a niche genre not played by everyone, most people don't even play any games at all and for them playing doom is the same as looking at a rock album cover so they see no value whatsoever in it other than a pretty picture. as for myself i seriously am not considering playing doom instead of even 2d games that i think look new and fresh or just browser flash games that i think are interesting, doom in itself is not the reason that i wanted to create something myself, if inspiration comes to mind, i actually did want to create a 2d flash game at first and think that that kind of game would have had way more success than any shooter on the app store. i am simply saying that doom was more a standout game of the time but it does not make me think that games like call of duty are carbon copies of doom, even though there are similarities in the way that there is first person perspective and the levels have corridors in them, that's about it. the same way you deny that early games like maze war that was published 20 years before doom still had significant influence on games that came after etc, i am simply saying that doom owes itself to the gaming community more than community owes it to doom for its presence in today's world of app store titles. games by themselves don't garner influence if there is no community built around them, same as linux vs windows debate, it's not a matter of which os is better but a matter of how many people support linux on desktop and who lobbies windows preinstalls on retail store pcs etc.

eat this fucker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD0L46y3IqI

Doom on the MacBook Pro Touch Bar

and what's your point exactly? i still wouldn't play doom even on vr when i have plenty of better options. doom at this point is like mona lisa, some people may find it cool but most wouldn't stare at it for more than 5 seconds when it's used in some meme.

And i wouldnt play your CoD when i have Doom which was basically the father of your shitty CoD

good luck with your linear games

agreed. some nice background on the game, the guys and what the game-dev scene was like in those days. pretty entertainingly written for being more or less a biographic documentation.

on-topic: I'd read another book like that, anytime, but I don't need a crowd funded video about it.

confirm it's rly a good read :)

read it on Summer and it might be the best book I have ever read and have read many.

their story is more epic, than any made up story I have watched in films.

doom is potat

some really cool never before seen footage of the old doom 4 and the qcon behind closed doors reveal. nawce

why not a nice big fat reflex documentary instead of this ?

because doom's a commercial name and reflex isnt

I beg to differ

You know why.

noice, very noice. But i am at work now and i cant watch it, yet!














Thanks, ... obama.

take my dough you nooooooooo

... nice documentary, it give nice insights on id and what were they thinking, nice work there noclip.

When QC gets released, you'll also say "what were they thinking" :)

you gave my words negative connotation, which was not my intent. ... that said i feel your pun. :)

should just redesign the charectors in call of doom and call it rage 2 and carry on with it

graphics look alot better then blurry doom 4

have first person vehicles instead

have some pod racing like star wars

Part II released, main post updated.

^ PART 1

Really good!

I watched the Rocket League one also - these are really really well made.

Very nice.

Confirms what I had thought was the reason why Doom 4 was surprisingly so good, after 15 years of subpar games: the sacred cows left the company, with the new blood actually understanding what Doom is about.

Essentially, the creative hole left by John Romero's departure was finally filled after all these years, by Hugo Martin and the supervisor from Zenimax, both who prevented Call of Doom from happening and who understand the original games. The classic feel is back due to the the classic concepts coming back, from new people. It's only a silly action shooter with late 80s and early 90s influences; not an Alien movie.

Then, the old approach of id software's games being mere tech showcases made by a handful of people finally stopped, as John Carmack left the company. With that departure, the managing issues of the company were solved, and the previous subpar engines (Doom 3, Rage) were replaced by one of the best ever made (Doom 4's).

Before you all crucify me for criticizing what some nerds consider a god, let me explain. In the 90s his work was revolutionary, but in the 2000s Carmack was pretty much the reason why id started sucking. In the 2000s we all saw id's games sacrificing gameplay in order to show the new tech stuff, with Doom 3 being very much closed quarters in order to show the new shadows, as in open and in even Q3-sized maps the performance was horrible. That killed Doom and the company's business of outsourcing their engines, because the gameplay was totally different, the IP went unused for 11 years and other companies stopped using id's engines, going for Epic's instead. Not only that, the most recent engine of his was filled with bugs and the game wasn't even pretty, as Rage is infamous for having huge performance issues at release date and the 99th attempt of getting megatextures over once again backfired. Plus, what's rarely mentioned is that Carmack is the one that took the decision to keep the Doom 3 and Rage teams very small, with only 20 people for Doom 3 and 60 for Rage, which is why the development of them took 5 years each; a decision that almost ruined the company. Lastly, it has to be said he fired Romero, the creative force behind the company's hits and the guy that invented Arena FPS gameplay.

When Carmack left he was replaced by part of the former Crytek team (engines) and by Zenimax (managing and supervising). The new tech team made what id software hadn't done since 1999 (Q3): the prettiest videogame out there, with no performance issues. Total 180° in comparison with Rage and Doom 3; totally unexpected from 2000s id software. Plus, Zenimax brought the manpower the company needed, including the creative guys that made Doom 4 play like a Doom game instead of a tech demo, and also allowed the reboot from Call of Doom (Doom 4 1.00) to Doom (Doom 4 as we know it) to be made in only two and a half years, which is something Carmack's id couldn't have done.

eh so how do you explain their complete lack of understanding what Quake is supposed to be?

And what's it supposed to be?

Valid point since not even id themselves didn't really know what to make of it.

They liked dungeons and dragons, they liked the cyber-aspect of the game. The whole thing is a bit convoluted and the storyline is lacking. Coincidentally even Doom has a more solid plotline. Quake is just a mishmash of random ideas.

But I digress, what PuX was probably going after minuscule competitive circlejerk alá "why is RG 80 dmg this game suxxx"

nah, I dislike the whole idea of champions with special abilities and the visual style of what we've seen so far.

balance could be tweaked without ruining the game but the abilities and focus on teamplay/roleplay could ruin it.

That's what I said. The new creative guy joined for Doom 4's revamp (2013), not before.

there is nothing wrong with rages engine, besides the texture cache being on your hard drive which bottle necks and gives you all the texture popping

you still have texture popping in doom 4, except the texture cache is in your ram with an extra 22+ GB/s to use to transfer textures for a new frame with or without texture compression, with a SATA 3 HDD you can manage 100 textures tops because the actual transfer rate is never 6GB/s on windows OS

the crytek guy recoded the renderer "just fixed the floating point whatever bugs" carmack left in it since quake 4, then added vulkan

part 3

Really, really good documentary.

figured id post this here too, never saw it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a9E3n_VZRQ

His pax talk was fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu4dB_Wy1-E

How much did u get for advertising?

Probably more than you did with fiverr scams and fake cups :D

Having in total more than 1.000+ 5/5 (customer satisfaction - positive reviews) on all freelance sites im working cant be scam, but it can be you being jaleous.

There has never been a fake cup (you being "funny"?). There is a tournament in progress which will happen, because of people like you prize pool will be limited as Im doing everything with my own money. Currently I m working to get more viewers and followersfor for my twitch channel as im new on twitch.

This was a normal question as youre an admin and you can post whatever you want that has connection with "quake". If I had posted something like that then we can only imagine what could have happen since im an sales and marketing specialist.

Main post updated with 1 hour interview:


Hugo Martin on the Creativity Behind DOOM - Extended Interview

thanks for the link... this guy man, he is guy i would love to work with.

my favorit part of doom soundtrack: https://youtu.be/Jm932Sqwf5E?t=36m36s
:P

that scene in that video is so awesome. That sound tho.... did you hear how bfg sounds like in MP space map? lawl ... so fucking epic lol :D

this is the song i was looking for, for this cristmas :evilgrin:

The perfect Christmas song :))

NoClip just released ANOTHER extended interview with Mick Gordon, the guy who composed all tracks for Doom



main post updated etc

wrong link in main post

Missing one ugly ] sign and ruined whole link ;:cc

nice... didn't know mike gordon was influenced by sonic mayhem (well you can hear the influence a bit in his work, but still its nice to hear him say it aswel) , you know waht this means ... awesome colaboration on QC!!! :)

Yeah yeah I know, you're getting tired of this

Another extended interview about art direction/snapmap