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Forums > Hardware Forum

Huge problem: 500hz USB, WMO, Win7/64 (21 comments)

( Forum: HW)

Posted by TicoTico @ 16:12 CDT, 3 May 2015 - iMsg

Hello all!

I was hoping someone else had got into a corner case (?) I seem to have been stuck into, and is able to help me out on this one. If so, or otherwise know, what gives, please, help!

I just can't get the USB poll rate increase work on a WMO of mine I recently acquired. I've tried out the most of the HIDUSBF instructions on the net, and I always end up the same: Nothing seems to change, WMO just updates at 125Hz.

For starters, there's one specific thing I'd like to ask:

In the "path" of user interface actions "Device Manager/Human Interface Devices/Microsoft USB Wheel Mouse Optical/Properties/Driver/Driver File Details", there's a list of four driver files for the WMO:
C:\Windows\system32\DRIVERS\hidclass.sys
C:\Windows\system32\DRIVERS\hidparse.sys
C:\Windows\system32\DRIVERS\hidusb.sys
C:\Windows\system32\DRIVERS\hidusbf.sys (this looks promising)

but, when selecting the "hidusbf.sys" one, in the details it says:
"Digital Signer: Not digitally signed."

Is that correct, should it show up like that? Or does this mean the signing didn't work even if the "dseo13b.exe", the "Driver Signature Enforcement Overrider" reported that the file was succesfully signed?

Some possibly relevant details:

- Experimenting with this on a Windows 7 Pro, 64-bit
- Multi-boot setup with Linux (main boot loader), Win7 Home and Win7 Pro
- Asus K55VM laptop, the spec says 2 USB3.0 ports, 1 USB2.0 port
- Also have Logitech G400 installed, with Logitech Gaming Software
- WMO: Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1A
- I've also been through recovering from "dead" USB ports, caused by this poll rate overclocking operation.

I'm getting desperate!

Cheers,
TicoTico

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<< Comment #1 @ 17:15 CDT, 3 May 2015 >>

By

qlimo

http://www.ngohq.com/news/15043-how-to-increa...a-7-a.html

<< Comment #7 @ 13:54 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #1

Thanks, cuadicles.

Even though this is one of the instructions I thought I had tried in and out, forwards and backwards, I read it through and got a few more ideas...

But, the problem starts to seem a USB3 problem, which I talk more about in my reply to the Comment #2.

<< Comment #2 @ 04:49 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

kRoNic-

I was having lots of problems with this yesterday actually, it finally worked when i turned off xHCI in the bios settings (it's a usb option). Also apparently it doesn't work on usb 3.0.

<< Comment #6 @ 13:40 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #2

Thanks for the push, kRoNic-.

I had previosly tried to avoid the USB2/3 question, since the manufacturer had specified my laptop does have one USB2 port, besides two other USB3 ports. But the reality doesn't seem that simple:

I tried this software to see how my laptop's USB internals are lined up.

Here is the logical USB structure of my laptop, with the following annotations:

- "phys" ports are the only 3 physical USB ports my laptop has on the outside.
- "BT" and "Webcam" represent internal wirings of the laptop camera and Bluetooth chip into an internal USB2 controller.
- Upper "?" highlights the question that what is this USB2 controller for, with no apparent connections?
- Lower "?" in turn, highlights the similar question of is there an access to these ports anywhere?

Speaking of my laptop's BIOS, there was an xHCI option too, but the only choices available were "Enabled" or "Smart Auto". I had it on "Smart Auto", and I didn't try if "Enabled" would've made any difference.

What I tried was uninstalling the Intel USB 3.0 driver I had previously installed. The result was that all the USB ports on the outside stopped working completely. They restored into operation only after re-installing the USB 3.0 driver.

So, to recap: it starts to seem like I have only USB3 ports available on my laptop, and if the polling rate tweak isn't supposed to work with USB3 ports, it's a dead end. Unless I pop the cover of my laptop and go search for USB2 sockets to plug some extra USB wires into...

Is that all, or can someone come up with some better approach?

<< Comment #12 @ 04:06 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #6

For information of anyone like-minded, or anyone finding such a stretch amusing, I came up with an idea. :)

The idea consists of hardware part and software part:

Hardware part:
- Get some old laptop with Linux in it,
- plug in the WMO and
- pull an ethernet cable from this old laptop to the main laptop.

Software part:
- In Linux, set the USB poll rate to 500hz (which is easy),
- option A:
- a1) make a tiny program to forward USB mouse events to the main laptop, through the Ethernet link
- a2) make another tiny program to convert ethernet messages into actual mouse events, creating a seamless "mouse over ethernet" effect.
- option B: get a software capable of doing the same thing described in option A, out of the box. Searching "USB over IP" from the internet reveals a couple of possible leads.

It does sound like a feasible plan, because I remember even on 100mbit network a typical ping roundtrip is something like 0.1-0.8 ms, so there shouldn't be too much added input lag due to this arrangement. And the default total packet size is 64 bytes, which is probably a lot larger than mouse event data, anyway.

<< Comment #13 @ 05:00 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

ollir - Reply to #12

I like this idea :)

I have an unused Linux laptop and have programmed C (I think C would be good tool for task like this) enough to actually give this a shot :D

But we'll see, as I don't actually use my WMO and so don't need this solution myself.

Edited by ollir at 05:01 CDT, 5 May 2015

<< Comment #14 @ 05:42 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #13

I realized I might have gotten the feasibility math wrong. Ping sends the packet only once per second, but 500hz-1000hz mouse would send it, of course, a lot more often.

If we assume that the mouse event would fit into 4 bytes (16 bits per x and y) and add some header bytes (IP,UDP,whatever), we could be talking about something like 5-20kB/sec.

Someone else's measurements here suggests that we could be then within the range of 0.5-5 ms of extra input lag, depending on the Ethernet type.

Let me know if you get to test this out first. =P

<< Comment #18 @ 16:30 CDT, 6 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #13

According to the ping utility, 100mbit direct cable could work fine.

When setting ping to do as much the link can handle, it will send 10k of 64-byte packets per second, and CPU was at 100%, over half of it spent printing ping messages to the console (ie. could go as high as 20k on an old Athlon XP).

The latency was between 0.0-something ms and 0.5 ms, but not entirely obvious what was going on... If ping was pinging once per second, the latency was always in the 0.2-0.5 ms range, but with max push, the average latency dropped to the 0.0-something region. So weird.

On the other hand, generating raw input events on the Windows end started to seem like hard work. You'd apparently need to make a "mini-driver" or a driver to fake a HID device...

<< Comment #19 @ 16:48 CDT, 6 May 2015 >>

By

ollir - Reply to #18

Yea I figured it would involve making some sort of driver. But as it turns out I currently don't have time to pursue this. But the idea is still there if anyone wants to take it *wink* *wink*.

Edited by ollir at 16:48 CDT, 6 May 2015

<< Comment #3 @ 05:47 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

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<< Comment #4 @ 07:01 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

xiphos- - Reply to #3

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<< Comment #5 @ 07:12 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

phy1um - Reply to #4

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<< Comment #8 @ 16:09 CDT, 4 May 2015 >>

By

qlimo - Reply to #4

You must be crazy. G400 > G400s.

<< Comment #9 @ 01:17 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

ollir

Using GRUB?

I remember reading this will prevent you from booting Windows into test mode, thus making it impossible to do this. I know I never succeeded in it, and I'm multibooting Linux/Win7 with GRUB as the bootloader.

edit: If someone who multiboots with GRUB has done this, I'd very happily be corrected on this.

Edited by ollir at 01:18 CDT, 5 May 2015

<< Comment #10 @ 03:16 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #9

GRUB2, yes. But also using Windows' original bootloader, "chained" from the GRUB.

The test mode watermark appears on my desktop as expected, and equally, if I press F8 right after selecting the Windows in the GRUB menu, I get to choose whether to enable the test signing mode, along with the other options, like Safe Mode. The key here is probably the chaining.

So I believe in your case the GRUB probably skipped the Windows boot loader somehow, passing control directly to the OS.

<< Comment #11 @ 03:31 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

You want usb1.*/2 anyway.

<< Comment #15 @ 08:11 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

daryl

are you sure your WMO is legitimate? there are plenty of Chinese fake WMOs around.

by the way, the proper sequence of steps for the method you're trying to use is:

1) run dse, enable test mode.
2) right click on HIDUSBF.INF and click install.
3) run setup.exe, check filter on device and choose the desired polling rate.
4) run dse, sign the file, using the full path to system32\drivers\hidusbf.sys
5) reboot

Edited by tyryl at 08:19 CDT, 5 May 2015

<< Comment #16 @ 13:11 CDT, 5 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #15

Yeah, no obvious fake signs visible. And the Finnish market don't have much fakes around, especially 15 years earlier, when the mouse was probably bought.

About the proper sequence: That's one of the sequences I've tried. And definitely not only once. But the problem seem to have a good explanation now, the USB3-only issue (see Comment #6).

Soon I'm about to get another, older laptop running, and possibly get a confirmation to the USB3 theory.

<< Comment #17 @ 00:25 CDT, 6 May 2015 >>

By

TicoTico - Reply to #15

I didn't mention that I also tried mouse poll rate adjustment in Linux, where it's only a matter of a simple command line action:

sudo modprobe -r usbhid && sudo modprobe usbhid mousepoll=1

And it didn't work that way either.

Now when I got another, older laptop running, completely without USB3, poll rate change worked without problems: WMO@500Hz.

<< Comment #20 @ 17:34 CDT, 19 June 2015 >>

By

daryl - Reply to #17

yeah, that would've made it clear right away if you'd tried it on Linux as well. so anyway, cool that you figured it out.

<< Comment #21 @ 09:54 CDT, 20 June 2015 >>

By

hoppan

disable usb3

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