Not entirely false, but abudantly: Rapha overall skills are more complex ( his bigger limitation is the raw aim ) and..well, just look at his overall resume.
Not to mention Rapha awesome movement and speed, often the best between the pros.
I wish people would stop using that game to show Rapha's aim can be good, there are far better examples . I mean at quakecon 2011 he was out-lging Strenx at times. Much more impressive than hitting high rail percentage for one game.
I dont have the statistics but i am pretty sure rapha has the better cut. but how do you define who is better? rapha surely handles pressure better and runs down his game very cool. on the other side cypher can make mirracles happen, when u think he loses he pulls a rabbit. i go with cypher is the better online player and more creative and rapha is the better lan player.those 2 styles are very hard to compare.
so all beginner QL players that just have shown interest in the professional dueling scene are retarded? yea, go ahead and edit that post one more time
so why are you accusing me, the thread author, of being "retarded?" because my interest in the QL duel scene didn't start at the same time as yours? i would love for you to elaborate how that relates to intelligence
if by break his series u mean that rapha was hitting sub 20 acc's vs k1llsen's averaging 50+ rail and 40+ shaft, ya I guess. There was nothing he figured out about rapha that others couldnt. k1llsen just hit everything and rapha even said in a recent interview that when u hit that much, u can kinda just do w/e u want. He tried to create opportunities for himself, but it didn't work out with him not having a level of aim needed to beat k1llsen.
that's not true. you might think rapha is some sort of "all brain" player, but he will out-lg 99% of the quakelive player base. same with anyone else you'd consider "all brain" (w/e that means)
why he doesnt then? stable good aim helps a lot in duel...
also there are guys like agent, alfaomega, av3k in q3[who said himself he doesnt aim, just pacman]...
now, there is a question what does "no aim" mean...hittin zero lg is horrible, and nothin will help you, but hitting 20pc with stack and position advantage is enough to be good
we have a term of comparison: heartless vs spartie on thunder. heartless outshafted him, not my much, but enough to win. so, mutatis mutandis (spartie shaft>rapha shaft and heartless shaft>or = to top tier, i.e. non-pro, player), rapha's shaft vs top tier player=... ah crap nothing comes out of that inference does it :d
K1llsen on fire at adroits got pwnd by Cypher in one of the most stunning finals i have ever seen talent-wise. Sadly, Adroits failed enough to destroy any evidence of that final
As far as i know, Rapha is actually the most overall succesfull Quake Live player, in terms of grand total of money earned;
the problem with Rapha is that for a long time he had not the possibility to put his hands on a connection good enough to permit him to play online; because adsl wasn't present in his zone, he only had modem connection, wich is not even considerable to play at some levels; so for years the only thing he could do was watching demos (!) , he mentioned ones of Cooller (you don't say...), Lexer, Zero4 and others;
Having him the possibility to play online earlier, he with all probabilities would be stronger and with way more experience, actually; he still manged to win a major lan in the last times of q3, beating strong players;
Even with his huge lack of experience at an age in wich the likes of Cypher and Coollers were building their skills, he still managed to beat them all, at lan, even on ztn, various times;
To this add the fact that due to his high distance to Europe he cannot play online (too much ping), and has difficulties in travelling, and you have the fact that he his substantially exluded from all of the minor competitions of here (zoraccs, facit, etc. etc.); so, being he living here, he could add a lot of online cups to his already impressive resume (expecially considering that at the age all of the other quakers were developing the skills, all he can do was playing bot, some friend in home lans, and watching demos; and this is simply astonishing. )
i am sorry, i can't respond with precision to this; we shall just wait some aknowledged guy to inform us, and then plus him to vomit;
i even lost the link to the site with the major videogames earner, i thought i saved in the bookmarks, but you know, bookmarks doesn't anything but accumulate more and more
Perhaps not being able to practice Quake is one of the reasons why Rapha became so good. His game style is one of the most theory based, reactive styles, and I think this probably developed because he spent a lot of time watching and thinking about demos before he could play properly.
If he could play more from an earlier age he might have focused less on this; lower level, younger quake players are normally more interested in execution aka aim.
However, this execution is also what seems to let Rapha down when he loses; he makes the right decisions but sometimes struggles to follow them through with aim (eg losing to Killsen at Gamescom). But maybe if he had started playing earlier he would not make these right decisions to begin with.
However, definitely by 2009 onwards he would have benefited enormously from living in Europe - so many opportunities to keep his execution honed.
yes, it's better you dont even mention cooller, considering he almost never beated Rapha in direct matches... just because their styles collides, Rapha does the things that Cooller does better than him, and finally, Rapha grew up watching and admiring Cooller, hence he knows his style and how to counter it... just like Cypher.
rapha atm is one game master, as players didnt have time to get used to his style in q3... and his the master of game that suits him the most, just like q4 suited tox...
cooller is cooller - you dont understand why hes so great... his ability to adapt to game is superior... q3,q4, promode q3, and ql...
im ashamed to admit it: i was cooller hater, because of his +back style he used at iem5... but i saw how great he is after hitbox update, that allowed more aggresive game... and suddenly, cooller didnt +b for 10 minutes, because it wasnt the best possible style for QL!
Rapha is potentially the quake master, because Cooller himself admitted that Rapha is the fastest to adapt to a new map, and his succesfull and fast adaptation to ql show that he would as well do great things in any other quake; plus, his style is not aim-only based, so he can win even when his aim is off;
I've always been a Cooller admirator, because of his brilliant, unusual, original style, but it's not difficult to say that Rapha is stronger, considering how little practice he required to dominate in a game cooller and the others have been playing since kids, and this is a immense advantage for them all.
i kind of stole the idea :o
i read the news about this guy: http://www.phildub.com/ (amazon cv)
i thought the Amazon-style CV looked pretty shit but liked the idea of a themed CV~ then thought of windows 8
will probably do some different theme when i get bored
the problem with MS is they have a long login info part where you pu all the same info thats in your CV (then upload it too)...its not like smaller companies where you can just email your CV :<
nope, im not looking for a new job~ just did it because i was bored
I might send it off for a job at MS though, see if HR contacts me :D then refuse them (Y)
i would actually rank cooller > cypher while ranking players, it would go 1) rapha, 2) cooller, 3) cypher, 4) av3k. mainly due to how many 2nd places cooller got behind rapha, while cypher placing top 4 behind those 2. cypher won a lot of DH's and Qcon's when they pretty much became shitty LAN based zotacs. ofc with the exception of 2010. Now that I edited this post and come to think of it, he actually won a lot of shit lol. I think im wrong about the cooller>cypher. It should be cypher > cooller. but again, i think its the case of a > b > c > a, where if cooller came up vs avek, he could beat him most of the time, but if he came up vs cypher, he could lose very easily. But rapha definitely #1, since he never had a 'mental block' against any of the top4/8/16 players, he could beat anyone who was in his way, with maybe the exception of fox... i dont think fox ever lost to rapha. maybe i'm wrong. dont know my statz
Edited by sleepparalysist at 18:12 GMT, 7 February 2013
I wouldn't be sure. At the beginning rapha won most of them, but there's a point in which cypher did the same.
Can someone count them?
Are all intl quake lans listed in quakehistory? Adroits and others count as long as lots of top players from different countries attended, like it was at adroits.
Guy asks a simple question of the overall game score between rapha and Cypher, or comparison of their life winnings.
Proper answer would look like xx:yy, X won more.
And yet all I see is people saying who's their favorite (not necessarily out of the two). And one guy even insulting thread author for simply asking this interesting question?
you're posting on an open forum that allows anonymous comments. not only are you surrounded by idiots, but you are one of the idiots surrounding other idiots, idiot.
..thresh? seriously? What about Fatal1ty, so...
Cooller is one of the three, unkind is one of the bigger waste of potential and talent ever, unfortunately, and lexer is not even close to what the other guys have won, or in terms of career longevity, IMO.
Yes, I am serious. As far as I know, Thresh lost only one 1v1 in his professional career. Considering this he is the most dominant Quake player in history. To put things in perspective, dem0n just beat Cooller 25-5 on Aerowalk.
No, you can't be serious. Thresh is known to choosed the events to take part by the level of the opposition, preferring relatively small events if not "strong" players were in;
It's exactly like in professional boxing, there are some rare boxers of various categories that has a perfect score, meaning unbeated; but with few exceptions, they are generally meaningless, because they are padded records, bulked up by fighting just "tomato cans", weak opposition.
To this, add the level of the competition of these times: it was the very beginning of the concept itself of pro-gaming, the overall level of skills was incredibly low, compared to the actual ones in every pro-gaming game, and even compared to the actual level of Quake 1; if you don't believe it, go watch some of his matches, and after watch quakeworld matches from 2005.... it's like comparing Fatal1ty's matches to 2008's quake 3 matches.... not even the same "sport".
"To put things in perspective, dem0n just beat Cooller 25-5 on Aerowalk. "
You think that this sums up Cooller's career. You cannot be serious.
Fatality played at the same time thresh did. Fatality stood absolutely no chance against anyone at that time. So did czm, fox, etc., but thresh won every single tournament he attended or participated online, on several games. That record is unmatched to this day, and actually his tournament winnings could be higher than fatality's considering inflation, not to mention that he is most probably by far the highest earning former professional player of all time (selling firingsquad and related sites before the bubble burst, founder of xfire, etc.)
Also fatality is known for dodging competition. Personally I don't know about anyone who dodged more than him, retiring from q3 the exact moment competition appeared after his one year of dominance then all the fishy parts of his career happened. I also find funny that he is the gaming legend when there are at least 5 players that won more duel fps gaming tournaments or have a better career than him: marketing really does wonders.
And QW and Q1 (netquake) aren't comparable; they are different games. A better example would be q2.
watch a game of thresh's and then claim that he is one of the top 5 greatest quake 1v1ers of all time... also, i remember him losing to immortal in q2....
Everyone played at the time yet they lost by 60 frags margins to him, including fatality. That's why pele is considered to be the greatest soccer player of all time no matter on his prime there's no way he could compete against messi.
Also consider netquake was pretty different than qw. With that said his quake bible is very impressive for the time.
That's probably the one defeat it was talked on this thread. Thing is he still won every single offline and online tournament he ever played in all games, while he didn't dodge competition like fatality did all the time and with fishy tournaments since like 2003. Not even the most successful quake players of all time, which are cooller, rapha and cypher, won 33% of their events lol.
?? You serious? Fatal1ty played several years AFTER Thresh disappeared from competitions, they never clashed, Thresh only played quake 1 seriously... Try to wonder why he quitted the gaming competitions so quickly, why he had a career so short? Seriously, compare some of his matches to recent matches on Q1, they are not even comparable.
Additionally, how much he earned OUTSIDE gaming competitions means nothing for his GAMING COMPETITION career earning; otherwise, if Bill Gates ever managed to win even a local quake event, he would automatically be "the highest earning quake player", counting all the moneys he made with company.
There is some evidence that Fatal1ty dodged competition, but not Thresh. None that I know of anyway. If you would elaborate I'm interested. It goes without saying that since esports has become more established there is better competition around the world. This doesn't give anybody the right to discredit what Thresh did in his era, though. When Billox won the Quakeadelica London tournament Thresh took him on and won 56 to -1. Not even close. The only credit I'll give you is that Thresh never officially competed in Quake 3. There are rumors he used an alias, but no confirmed demos have surfaced. Therefore, unfortunately, we don't have any idea how he would have performed in Quake 3. Also, I did not write that to summarize Cooller's career. I used it as an example to show that even though Cooller performed poorly he is still a legend. Thresh was never handled like that. Not once.
Edited by Retribution at 20:34 GMT, 11 February 2013
"There is some evidence that Fatal1ty dodged competition, but not Thresh."
As far as I know, Fatal1ty defeated Makeveli, LakermaN, Rix, Timber, Kane, Immortal, Blue, Shub, Xenon(clan9), DOOMER.
on the other hand Thresh never defeated or even competed with the likes of Zero4, Polosatiy, b100.death, Cooller, Wombat, Vo0, Toxjq, Czm, Stermy, Lost-Cauze, ZyZ, Ztrider, Aim, Prozac, Socrates.
I never claimed Fatal1ty didn't beat good players, but there are suspicious decisions he made regarding the tournaments he participated in. It's not all glory, so I don't blame him if it was intentional. He had a very successful career.
This has been discussed a million times already on this site. It's not like I have to google it up for some anonymous people (that are fat himself and that other dude that hates me).
That's like saying: web design back then < web design now.
It's unfair to judge Thresh this way. He completely dominated his era and there wasn't anybody better than him. If in 10 years everybody is hitting 60% LG and 80% RG would you disregard rapha, cypher and cooller? No, that would be ridiculous.
no, that would be just fair: remember, we aren't disregarding peoples or sportmans, we are just judging the raw skills; the web desing example is wrong, the level is undoubtedly higher actually than he was back then, you can judge with your own eyes; if there will ever be someone "hitting 60% lg" (and maybe doing something else?), and those guy will achieve more than rapha and cypher, then, good for him, he may be the strongest quake ever, or the higher earning, until someone stronger will come out.
Are you taking into consideration that the quality of training contributes a lot to the success of modern players? It's easy to learn the game right now. You can watch pros play, there are tutorials and there are servers active every hour of the day. They have the luxury of low latency, good hardware and QuakeLive is arguably easier to play. Thresh is a grandfather of the game and is statistically the most dominant player so far. If you think it's because the people he played were terrible then I guess he's in luck because the title belongs to him.
yes, i've taken in consideration this fact, contrarily to you that takes in consideration only some statistics in his favour;
this factor is almost irrelevant, because are you taking in consideration that with all the practice of the world, and with the better hardware possible, you cannot overcome your own limit?
What Fatal1ty said? Practice, practice, practice, practice, he said it non-stop, but still not even playing 8-10 hours at day he was able to compete to the raising level of quake3, and had to move on.
Again, go watch thresh's matches, and then compare them to more recent qw matches, and you'll understand by yourself that with all the practice of this world he couldn't compete with actual qw players, go figure with q3/ql monsters like rapha and cypher.
I don't believe in a limit. You start with a base skill and take it as far as you're willing to go. Sometimes luck is involved in winning and it isn't something you can calculate or foresee. However, no amount of luck would result in the career Thresh had. I think you are too stubborn to give Thresh the credit he deserves. I don't understand why. Cypher and Rapha are great, but they are new generation players. You have to remember that it takes time to establish the foundation of theories and strategies. They owe a bit of their success to the older generation of players. If we ever see another player as dominant as Thresh you will have something to go on. Like I said before, Thresh never officially competed in Quake 3. Maybe he would have flopped or maybe he would have been great. Nobody can say. He may have been kicking ass using an alias but never competed in tournaments. We simply don't know.
Edited by Retribution at 20:13 GMT, 15 February 2013
this is madness, it really seems that you are just trolling at this point! Then why do you think, some of the "second tier", contenders simply cannot be at Cypher/Rapha/etc. levels, no matter how much they practice? Because they are not at their level of overall skills...
And the fact Thresh never competed in q3, in spite of being still young and fresh at those times, is just another factor that shows to you that he well knew what would have happened to his "resume" if he would have faced some serious players
They could very well be at their level given time. Do you believe cypher and rapha's success is genetic? If you do not then I don't understand what you're trying to say. Some players have bad habits and it hinders them. A few adjustment and they'll be on the right path. Once again, you're unfairly judging him. Thresh already made some serious cash by the time Quake 3 came out. Concerning finance, he didn't necessarily have an incentive to compete professionally. Not the mention Quake 3 has quite a few differences from earlier titles.
Yes, i do believe cypher and rapha's success is genetic, of course! How can you don't believe it considering there are dozens of players that plays way more than them, and do all they can to be stronger, and yet they simply cannot reach some levels?
Here's a hint, it so is in every kind of competition, the players that wins in every sport are genetically more gifted than the normal peoples.... and there's another point: in every kind of sport, at his very beginning the competition level is rather weak (not stupid, nor embarassing, nor less respectable, etc;) just weaker, and the more time passes, the better and stronger players comes out; it so is in basically every kind of sport, swimming, running, soccer, shooting, tennis, boxe, etc.
mostly considering Tyson's inconsistent resume; he was spectular, yes, to the point it's difficult to find a quake player spectacular and limited like he was
it isn't obvious at all, the contrary is, if ever; Rapha simply started later, and have the possibility to partecipate to less events; and still he managed to win more than Cypher, in the time period they shared;
But yeah, there are still peoples that thinks it's impossible Rapha beats Cypher in ztn on lan ( if you don't know... he did, consistently.)
I'm not a huge quake follower so correct me if i'm mistaken... But I followed last Quakecon's and Dreamhacks and looks that cypher consistently've beaten Rapha..
as you said by yourself, you haven't followed much, then: first of all, to say "i've followed the quakecon 2012" is a little like an oxymoron :-), but, talking about the matches, qcon 2012 showed how an awake Dahang can dominate an half-dead Rapha... those matches are ridicolous, in every zorac of fachit final you can see higher levels of playing... like Dahang walking straight a corridor looking to the shoulder of a still-standing, clueless Rapha waiting who knows what around a corner, and hitting him directly with a rocket.. this scenario repeated various times during the matches.. seriously, those matches are awful, not even in random practice between the two the level was so low, maybe there should be a rule that forbid any match to take place after, let's say, 9 p.m..
Cypher matches against Dahang are even more hylarious, i've never seen Cypher hitting the +attack button accidentally, well, during qcon2012 against dahang he did it various times, when far from the enemy, hurting himself with the splash XD! Have you ever seen the almightly Cypher getting dominated by Dahang, on lan, on ZTN? Those were the levels of the two, during the final stages of qcon 2012, those matches means nothing in terms of real skills;
and during the last Drimakhh, both the two were playing intensively shootmania, to be prepared for the 100,000$ tournament (!), and right before the event all the peoples were whining about how simplemania were ruining the best players, but then, Evil won, so Cypha the snypha and Rapha the gangster were at their very top level, and Evil the Ultimate Quaker Ever... No, the two were at poor levels, but i would say mostly for their aim side, expecially Rapha, so many random rails hitting nothing... of course, this is just their fault, undeniable, but this is not really indicative of their top skills.
rapha lost to dahang, because he was worst player that day... cypher played his usuall ztn out of control game against dahang... evil won DH cause hes great player
you are just like peoples describes you... an annoying raging kiddo distorcing the reality
so you are saying that it is normal, for your almighty Cypher, to shoot on his own foots and to loose on ZTN against Dahang?
Maybe you should watch the matches, and get a clue of what you are lying about?
i found what perfect? I was just explaining how both Cypher and Rapha were off at the last failcon , and you came out saying something on the line that Cypher was on his form, and that it is normal for him to struggle against Dahang on ztn and to make crazy mistakes on aerowalk....
you obviously has no idea who dahang is, and what he achieved in the past...
for most of users on this site, top ql players are cypher and rapha... just because they won the most number of tourneys... while theres like 6 more players who are able to do it, they just dont pracc enough
it's you that show to not have idea of what you are talking about, since you don't even know what happened to the last failcon; and about the pracc thing, it's false, plain and simple.
i don't have an hero, not between video game players , but mostly i never said it's normal for Cypher to loose to Dahang on ztn on lan... i said the opposite, in fact.
I have seen several demos of evil (luc1fer) in his time in vq3! He was always a great duelist, playing as equals with good pro-players! But, for reasons unknown, he don't have participated in major tournaments and became inactive. But he has talent, knows the game well (aggressive, damn good LG, cold emo).
If he were active couple of years ago, rapha, cypher and cooller would not win many tournaments ...
he won ONE lan against a semi-inactive cypher and rapha (who were playing both shootmania full time). an inactive strenx (also playing shootmania) beat him 2 out of 3 maps, although they were friendly matches. but evil may have gotten nervous as he was playing his idol
See demos of evil in q3 days (asus 2003, 2004...). evil was very good against Cypher ,Jibo, Cooller. This is cuz I think that evil could have wins asome tournaments if he was active in 2007, 2008, huh?
idk, its kind of delusional at this point to put cypher ahead of rapha. how many times has rapha beat cypher in a series? 6+?
cypher's style is prettier to look at and I root for him every time, but when people actually played quake a lot no one could really touch rapha. there hasnt been incentive to play for awhile and the results these days are kind of irrelevent
I dont have the numbers so I can't say youre wrong
I recall staying up for tournies and always being disappointed at cypher falling to rapha consistently over the years so I'll say I'm skeptical. in general cypher wasn't winning much of anything from after qcon08 to around 2010 right?
I would say they are both as good as each other but this thread reminded me of the game between, cypher and cooler at quakecon 2010- it was and still is the most amazing showcase of quake by two of it's greatest players
The thing is, how this will affect you? Other than that, for now rapha is the winner, because Cypher is not playing Quake full time right now. So he will be just raped.