I think reborn will be a flop. What will it have that a quake game (qw, cpma, QL) lacks in terms of gameplay?

not really, but it should be something worth noticing

Players? Activity? Life? I think qw, cpma, and QL are flops because they're dead. This is so easy to do.

There is still a good market for DM games. WoT, MWO, Hawken, etc are all doing OK. Those are all basically standard DM games.

How can you have any confidence that any of those will be there just because it is a new game? Anyone remember painkiller? or SM? If it's not quake, (not merely just quake-ish, but almost exactly quake - look WSW, Xonotic) the quake community will reject it as "noob" or "gimmicky" (not that these criticisms are unwarranted).

It was a point to prove what the other games lack. They will not magically be reborn into a prosperous state. I can say Reborn will be the best game ever as easily as you say it will flop. I don't need to provide insight to such claims.

If you take the time to read, I said in terms of gameplay. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and demonstrated that being a new game has nothing to do with anything you mentioned.

Actually, it is relevant as there is no current competition on the market. Also, I was not taking you seriously since you preface with, "I think it will be a flop," so I don't feel obligated to repeat what 2GD has already said, nor offer insight based on his communication with the project. If you're ready to have a serious conversation where arguments are based on the information available and logical opinions, I'm all for it. Until then, I can only dismiss your feeble attempt at provocation.

The quake community loves 2gd, and from the competitive side prize money appeals to everyone.

Speaking of quake clones, warsow devs think shootmania is a warsow ripoff even when they copied everything from quake and ut and all their gimmicks exist since more than a decade. I really laughed hard irl.
http://www.warsow.net/forum/thread/t/214462#post-214462

Who did say WSW is noob?
WSW is an excellent competitive game, it's just so dull in it's execution. It's like, might aswell play CPM.

Did you have any references of high quality competitive duel fps games that have tons of players, activity and life? (besides the golden era of 1999 which is unprecedented because it was the novelty of mp-only games)

The only way this will have what you say is if they dumb it down and add gimmicks. It's just not possible or really unikely that a game with the deepness, complexity and basically worth having the 'e-sport' tag of Quake becomes mainstream enough in 2012.

This means the game will suck for the hardcore crowd and the game will suck for the mainstream crowd because they are already spoon feed with Cod and their clones. It will be another game in the middle of nowhere, trying to please both audiences and achieving none.

I think the most important thing for Reborn to catch on within the Quake community is the movement... if they nail the movement they've got it 90% in the bag.

Then, provided they aren't dumb as fuck, they'll add matchmaking, ladder system, GTV, and all the other little things that have been requested for QL over the years as well as all the little things that QL already has and we sometimes take for granted.

Also, more closer to the topic, I expect to see the same gametypes we have in QL but with a small twist, so they are familiar enough to not scare anyone away but also slightly different to increase people's curiosity. For example, maybe they'll figure out an innovative spawn system, or even the "perfect spawn system" or maybe add some maps that turn out to be seriously excellent, or a really interesting melee weapon or a significant change to the way powerups work. I think they're capable enough of bringing some new and funky shit.

And the fact that 2gd is project director (I think?) increases the game's chances for success, because he himself is an ex-pro-gamer of the arena shooter variety and knows very well what the fuck is supposed to be going on in a game like this. This hasn't happened before (ex pro gamer as FPS project director), as far as I know, maybe with the exception of Ultrono Arena which was received positively universally. I believe he's also got Fox on board as tester.

So yeah I'm a bit optimistic, but I think it has a higher chance of being a success than your average game studio or even id software at present. Hopefully they won't run into financing problems!

The Matchmaking system i really don't know about if it would work in reborn or not, but having lan support is a must have for Reborn and thats what QL didn't do unless it was admins of QL trying to run the lan servers at lan events (QuakeCon, Dreamhack, etc.)

"For example, maybe they'll figure out an innovative spawn system, or even the "perfect spawn system" or maybe add some maps that turn out to be seriously excellent, or a really interesting melee weapon or a significant change to the way powerups work. I think they're capable enough of bringing some new and funky shit."

Right, hopefully they find that magic wand then.

Also in regards to 2GD, not only is he the points you made, but he's also very well connected in the eSports world. Hell, probably just overall a well connected guy that will get Reborn the publicity it needs. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Reborn at Dreamhack when he feels the client is ready for tournament status.

-matchmaking
+assrape disclaimer/warning

=)

Also, I cannot stress this enough, 2GD is a player, not a game designer, it is a radically (I'm not saying unrelated) different skill set.

Warsow already has all of that. Why isn't it the next big thing?

Warsow has matchmaking ? and a ladder ?

A LADDER? WHAT IS THIS 1989?

jump pad > ladder

Who needs matchmaking and ladders for a community consisting of a few active players? Implementing ladders and matchmaking is no big coding deal, can be done basically on request, as the need arises.

So these are non-issues.

lol @ thinking that q3 cpma and ql can not be improved.. The thing reborn can do better is adressing a wider target group.

You know that's really simple to type out. Please provide something which can be done better.

It's also easy as fuck to be pessimistic about a game in development.

an easy one - movement: simple but powerful movement system. no illogical or wierd acceleration mechanics like strafeaccel. a player should instantly be able to use 'advanced' movement (doesnt mean he has to be good at it though :P).

i think it also needs to be believable - not realistic but based in reality. that means it cant be based on bunnyhopping really, which doesnt really mean anything to modern games, other than 'exploit/hacks' and sometimes getst ridiculed because really, if you think about it, it is (when people hear the 'huh,huh,huh' jumping sounds they tend to pull an unflattering face).

Everything, really. Have no more than 5 core weapons, have easier movement, have item timers counting above item spawn points on beginner servers, more accessable client, unlocks, exp system that keeps you playing, decent graphics, ingame video tutorials, casual game modes; the list can be continued for so long.

ladder,rank,matchmaking and a solid progression system. Everything that ql should have but doesnt.

The game itself isnt that important at this stage as we have the perfect balance and overall game design.

We just need something that will put the focus on the community and provide a fair leveled playing field and not the rape fest that we have today. if you dont agree with me and many others we really have nothing discuss do we. :)

Duel and defrag confirmed. It should have CTF and TDM. Beyond these, the only other mode I would suggest is FFA, since it's the cornerstone of the genre. Too many game modes will separate and isolate players.

this is sort of true

if there's defrag there must be q3 maps support, and players being able to use those thousands of maps in one second just by downloading them for free from the interwebz

they'll obviously want to have all maps exclusive, no third party support (free or paid) and players have to pay for each one or something. Problem is they just won't have the man power to do thousands of maps.

this is exactly what reborn doesn't need imo.
A new start, no old maps.

Seconded. New maps. No old maps.

defraggers will get bored if it comes out with 20 defrag maps. That mod is best played with thousands, not dozens.
As I said, it's obvious 2gd's team won't be able to create lots of defrag maps, and we know he said there's the idea of buying community made maps and charging for those (no free maps like q3). It sounds great but I don't think the 2014+ community can produce more than 50 decent ones, including all mods, so the idea will flop.

Besides that specific mod people always like old maps, "classic maps". It's not a good idea to lose the legacy of awesome maps (obviously reborn won't have a perfect map pool at the beginning for duel and others) and nostalgia factor.
Is there a single person in the world that dislikes aerowalk? And we know from experience that ztn sells.

Until the community creates thousands of maps and profits from those selected, in theory. If the model 2GD has been talking about works effectively, they won't have to create any maps internally past the default maps released with the game.

Edit to your edit: I dislike aerowalk, and if I see it, or ztn, or dm6 in the competitive map pool for Reborn, I'm not going to bother playing it.

In 2014+ the community won't create thousands of maps, and out of those few are playable. That model simply does not work on defrag.

And now maps and mods in general.
- How many newly created community made maps are in QL after 5 years? Probably can count them with one hand.
- How many q3/ql new maps (2008+) were good enough to be in QL but aren't? Probably can count them with both hands.

edit: - How many new community made maps are in QL map pools, so those are the ones considered to be good by the players? Duel....0? (toxicity and hektik aren't) ctf.....0?

That model, in theory, doesn't work? Okay. Make a map, make a cash profit from players purchasing the map, and the map is released into the game for free if it is popular enough. If anything, it encourages map-making, and good map-making at that. Whether the application yields the desired results remains to be seen, but bear in mind Reborn is not Quake Live and the devs from QL are the reason there are so few maps comparatively to Q3. Anymore trolling?

answer the questions on #17. Can't blame id software on #2 and #3.

Back into your cave. Oblivious trolls have no input here.

yep, you have no clue

Given that they can play the exact same defrag maps will mean that the movements / gameplay is very much like q3. That's also one of the reasons I would like new maps over old ones.

Create a powerful map editor instead and maps will come with time. That's not a problem if the community is as dedicated as I hope it will be.

I agree on the first paragraph. Didn't consider that before.

For the second one, questions on #17 (practically 0 new good maps in the last 5 years) and consider 2gd said that he wanted to charge for community made maps that he handpicks so in the game there will be 1 out of 50 for example. A mod like defrag needs thousands of maps, not 20.

Ok, wasn't aware of that. Seems like an odd decision imo, but fair enough. Then I'll agree with you, especially for defrag. Might work well for the standard modes (duel, ffa, tdm, ctf). There won't be a lot of shitty maps lying around with this. Although it might be harder for map makers to learn how to do proper maps..

Perhaps I'm overthinking :)

I wish reborn wouldn't be very demanding on computer power.

lol poor

if you want a competitive game to be timeless it has to be pc demanding at release date. No exceptions.

Ydiat, moldowa #3 economy world

Maybe you could ask Santa to have his elves build you a new gaming computer? I doubt Reborn will require a costly system. If your system doesn't meet the requirements in the future, then it's probably time you upgraded anyway.

some warmup/aimprac-mod like domination in ql

Bomb & midair only modes.

Duel/TDM/CTF + something casual (ffa,ca,domination)

Anything else can be added later on with certain mods but shouldn't be part of the main core game.

bomb & defuse gametype like CS and warsow, shit loads of fun, easy to pick up for casuals and noobs yet good for comp

DOMINATION. That shit is mad fun but shiterror leaves it as premium so nobody starts a game.


Also, silent fright - just fucking tweak it so id software can't sue you.

it should have a mode where there's a single attacker with a rail gun and three defenders with rockets only. the objective is to capture a point behind the defenses.

should be extremely exciting!

i haven't come up with a name for it yet. could be called something like firemadness or something similar. anyone got ideas?

FFA and CA always work. Mods like freeze tag and infected for example, are good mods for new players to hop in, without being confronted with the fact that they have little skill. So you gotta keep these (kind of) mods in RB too.
For more skilled players, duel and also CA are a must.

Add a lot of challenging practice levels and add tutorials.

Add secrets now and then. Like te modified dm6 where you had to RJ on a lightbulb to get to the Kamikaze item. I remember seeing a dot in distant space in that level, when I was shot off the ridge. 3 mins later I was standing with 6 or 7 other guys on the nearest edge, trying to get to the Kamikaze. One person rocketjumping and the other trying to push him further towards the K, using the LG. Couldn't reach it. Loads of fun.
I've been watching those attempts from a slight distance too, and almost pissed my cool Spiderman pants from laughing. It's really fun to see those figures standing around, looking around, accidentally falling off the ridge, jumping towards the Kamikaze falling down like pigeons too fat to fly and to show up moments later, and sneaky pushing each other into the deep with the gauntlet 'n stuff.
It took players a few days to figure out how to get the item. That was real fun, and that moment got me 3 players I still encounter regularly, knowing eachother from just that single day, 1 of 'em has become an ingame friend.

Also don't allow weapon mods, like those rapid firing railguns 'n stuff. This takes away a weapons identity.

For a large player base, I think advertising on tv is really important. Create just one cool comercial, like show a scene of a dumb and slow game first, and then 'bomb in' a mighty catching piece of gameplay from RB. Make it cool. Take advantage of the fact that gaming becomes more and more popular. Show some winning moments from large QL tournaments, with crowds watching and cheering and so on.
I've seen varying decent examples of worthy movies on youtube already, be it for QL. It'll catch many young potentials, i'm sure.

Almost nobody in my surroundings (the Netherlands) even knows about the existance of online shooters. I've gotten some guys to play so far, but playing shooters stil is kind of a taboo here. However, it's getting better and better fast nowadays. Most new gamers choose a PS or an Xbox over a PC tho. I've seen a lot of guys (even girls) playing shooters on consoles, while i was suppressing the urge to drag them to the nearest PC. But a well thought over marketing campaign should work.
For example, Mass Effect has grown famous because it was a good game, but not because of a media hype around the first part. That game could have been sold at least twice as much with better marketing tactics. There is so much to gain in that area.

If id has been smart in the past, which I assume they were, they now possess a huge amount of statistics they can build on, like what to do and what not to do. Certain choises always have an impact on the popularity of a game. Like id's recent choice of moving the ability to choose any level from standard players to premium, for instance.
Whether that was a smart move, is another story.

In addition, don't change golden formulas. Quake 1 has found its playerbase mostly because the strong singleplayer campaign was one of the best ever. So was the first Unreal. For me, at least.
Quake was very popular once, but is becoming less and less. Wrong way. id should ask themselves why players leave, or do ot join in the first place. Why would players jump form Quake to BF or CoD or even Minecraft?
I've played Q2 and Q3arena a lot too during my study, late '90s and early '00. Too much to be honest, it took me an extra year... But after I graduated in 2003 I've never gotten the idea to join Quake over the internet, maybe due to my limited braincapacity, but there were no signals to alert me. Nonetheless, only until 2009 I took notice of the fact that QL had come out. In other words, I didn't know, just like 99% of the population.
I don't have to answer the question above, people at id get loads of money to answer that question.
Btw, certain measures on their part lately make me holding back from coughing up further suggestions.
Btw, if this is too much text, you should read faster.

sad news, im all for 1v1 and team gametype's, but for it just to be duel and tdm like has been done 1000x before is just boring...

this game's mindset has been wrong from the start. the choice of name says it all really - the outlook is backwards looking, reiterating a game that has been reiterated many times already and seemingly not really adding anything new to the recipe...

do people really think that a 'quake 3.5' will have any traction outside of the existing and depleted quake community?

we'll have to see and wait what 2gd will come up with. everyone is taking small things he is brainstorming here and there and extrapolating it into a doomsday scenario as if we know anything for certain yet.

i mean obviously 2gd is not telling everything he will put in the game and all the design choices so we are left with very minimalistic, dry comments about what the game will look like.

be skeptical about what he says, but don't take it to the extreme opposite and be extremely pessimistic. wait and time will show what reborn will actually look like.

i think 2gd has a good idea what's out there on the market and what appeals to the hardcore fps community and also what might bring casuals to the game. will he nail it? no one knows. i hope he is aware of the worries you present in your post (and i hope he was long before he even began working on the project), furthermore i hope comments like that will remind him, what he needs to achieve.

you are right ofcourse, and judging by the information and media they are still at the very beginning (and no funding ofcourse...) but i just feel that its going to end in tears- the quake community because it will necessarily be different and that is never well recieved and 2gd himself because he is a quaker and from his comments it seems he is unable or unwilling to change the formula radically enough to attract a new audience.

cheat vs cheat

reborn better wash my dishes and cook me dinner, or it will be a huge disappointment.

I already have the game. Certain mods included.