remove you from website immediately?

I concur

I concur

I concur

f2

playing tdm is fun

watching it, especially for people who don't play quake, is boring

more like headash

Just make a big duel tourney.

pro/invitation tournament + open tournament pls!

Double Elimination!

with bo5!

and bo7 in the grand final!

casted by 2gd and joe

joe is the man

You broke the rhythm!

True though.

with quakelive tshirts for everyone

you want people to know you play quake live?

ofc I do.
they'll look at me, and what the shirt will say to them is "I'm most likely going to kick your ass at any shooter game you'll dare to challenge me"

that's what it'd say to 'em

would be more intimidating if you put the q3 logo on it instead. Thats' a game people at least know about.

That's fine too, it's still quake

sadly tho i was not part of the q3 community :(

f1

f1

either make 2vs2 tdm + big duel, or fuck off and RIP QL

you won't get any good 4 man teams in any team mode + zzzz

That's a good option as well

2v2 tdm is even more boring to watch than 4v4 tdm

I believe the reason why so many people think TDM @ DH was boring, was because the games were extremely onesided (for the most part) and everyone knew who would take the tourney from day 1, not because TDM is inherently boring to watch.

2v2 would be more fun simply on the merit of there being more competition in it.

it is objectively more boring to watch only 4 players running around huge maps for 20 minutes. Also almost everyone here considers TDM to be boring in comparison to duel, for 3 straight events.

While ztn might be in the map pool, it'll still last unnecessarily long and there are way less strategies involved; to the point it defeats the whole purpose of having a team mode there. Even 4v4 freezetag has more depth than 2v2 tdm.

I like watching 4v4 TDM bronze and gold finals, but no more than that (like everyone else).

also consider that it is not viable in the long run. There's only one team going to events, so the next ones will continue to be colwn beating everyone by more than 100 frags.

That's sadly true. However, i'm not so sure 2v2 tdm would be necessarily more boring, you'd just have to assemble an adequate map pool specifically for the gametype. I'd be definitely interested in watching a proper 2v2 tourney, if only to see how it'd turn out and to have something new and fresh to stir up the stale formulae.

Sounds like a great idea!

get rid of team modes at lans, there is no competitive community for CTF or TDM.

Bigger duel tournaments, brand new map pools etc. No more 10 year old maps.

there is no competitive community for CTF or TDM.

this sadly

sif there is 1 for DUEL

watching the same 10 players playing over and over again since 3 years.

We see the same guys time and again because they are the best players. What do you want, a lottery to decide who gets in?

We see the same guys time and again because they are the best players

no you watch the same players because they constantly get invited. An open duel tournament would bring more interest and increase the playerbase

I like the idea of 2v2 tdm at tourneys

Why are some people against removing TDM and putting in CTF? TDM is just boring to watch compared to CTF imo... in CTF you have the players trying to capture flags, get them back from enemy carriers, etc. all action while TDM is just moving around to control power-ups, etc. and to a person who has never played Quake (as mentioned earlier) it seems like spam spam, etc. which might leave off a bad impression. CTF seems more strategic and interesting, with richer gameplay.

even if you are improving in your take on maps and mapmaking don't make overquick conclusions in judging a mode you don't play

ctf maybe got more obvious roles but it's still an aim and slight luck based game mode as it seems, rail mid till you got it and then gl with your opponents respawns

it seems to me people are underestimating colwns tactics and don't think about how easy it is to hit those jumppad rails while holding rail area on osp5, without their flawless positions and teamwork they wouldn't win so easily

tdm is full of action, and with good commentary it's better to spec (as you can easily miss the most important moments in ctf)

still the fact that it's objective based is a huge plus for ctf, but might be misunderstood as "depth"

ql ctf seems to me just tdm with an objective :~

but without good active teams (online too!) nobody cares about either it seems

Good point.

"ql ctf seems to me just tdm with an objective"

"ql ctf seems to me just a different gametype with an objective" <--- there, I fixed it for you, and both tdm and ctf are awesome, and yes, it's depth indeed.

how is an obvious objective "depth"?

in TDM it's just as/or even more important to take control over a certain area or get the main powerup of the map, it's even more dynamic (changing by every reposition and item spwn) that way

It's depth because while TDM is about killing the members of the other team, CTF is about captures, and it matters a shitload of who you kill and when. This combined with the "TDM" in it adds an extra tactical depth into the game.

The problem is that on the highest level, CTF is not as evolved as TDM by far.

TDM is awesome because it brings teamplay to Quake fragging and you got more freedom because there are no two fixed points on the map what must be controlled all the time, but (imho) CTF is also a worthy gametype and a high skilled CTF game can be just as much fun as a high skilled DUEL or TDM game with an overtime.

If you look up the best OSP/QL CTF games from the history of Quake, you will see huge tactical battles and lots of great fun on every level (with intense fights for a return with 5+ drops or a last second decider cap, etc). And those games are also really entertaining to watch.

It's different and it's nothing like what you can see and experience in TDM.

Duel only. Tdm/ctf only as small addition(like showmatch).

2 v 2 TDM could be cool ? as close to duel as you can get without being totally just duel

remove duel add ctf

fxd

f1

although i think that would be awesome that will never happen with the prize money as small as it is in quake tournaments now a days, w/o duel there wouldn't be any competition at all

insta ctf

yea man its ctf and clearly something with flags definitely has to be better to watch than something without right?!!>!>>!?!?!>!

YES

replace duel with 1v1 ctf

f1

doesnt matter if its ctf or tdm

what matters is if there are at least 2 teams that match eachother

/snore

i concur, with 8 proper teams (just 8 and not duelers creating clans for the event) in an european LAN.

if not, remove tdm and just do 32 players duel tournaments.

Other modes could be played there as showmatches.

I doncar

I understand you want to add an other gametype, but why do you want to remove one?

TIME AND MONEY I'D SAY

Competitive Freeze Tag!

I agree, I mean with the right settings I don't see why not. It actually requires more focus on helping your team than any other gametype (except maybe CTF) because you have to risk your life to thaw your friends. It's probably the most "heroic" gametype in QL imo and it's very fun.

i'd actually love to see that but are there even more than 10 freezetag players playing in ql? i think not...

http://www.quakelive.com/#!clans/summary/180767

haha, yes freezetag is alive and well i'm sure. Tons of freezetag matches happening for sure. Your head is so far up id's ass you can't even smell yourself anymore. hahah unbelievable.

Ok I got it.

We have two "qualifier" tournaments. One CTF, one TDM. The more active/competitive/entertaining gametype is picked for the next big LAN, based on these tournaments.

ok not perfect but mebbie something? :p

To be honest, ctf can be fun to watch, or a total bore. Same with tdm and duel. Like others have said, equal teams make it interesting. I would go further and say equal, high level teams make it interesting.

Can a team mode provide this? I'm not sure. Even if they can, players affording to travel to LAN will be a barrier :<

Ive always enjoyed watching ctf at quakecon, and the tdm this dh was quite boring from a spectators pov. But i guess what really matters is that the teams that are playing are matched with eachother. Nobody likes to see 20 mins of rape. And everybody loves to see a 2 frag tdm game or a 1 clutch last second cap to win it ctf game.

Tdm @dh summer was nice, but now it was one sided rape.

or just double elim duel :l

ctf is way more fun lol!

F1, TDM is incredibly boring to watch.

i would have to agree, zach

ok, screech

Interesting how people use "it's boring to watch" as an argument against TDM when barely anyone watches quake in the first place

well thats nto necessarily true, at least not under the right circumstances. dreamhack had +40k views, mostly from sc2ers, but quake also got good feedback from these people. except from 13 year old console fpsers, quake is well appreciated

dreamhack had +40k views, mostly from sc2ers

why mention the 40k when you know the latter to be true? The number of ql viewers by all accounts was 3,000, that's less than last years dh...

im just gonna take a guess: u stopped reading when u were satisfied

if you're waiting for something you really like, say a chocolate chip ice cream cone, ofcourse you're going to say good things at whatever is thrown at you. It's not like people were waiting to get their teeth pulled out at the doctor's office... then you wouldn't get the same feedback.....

yes but until the starcrafters got their ice cream, they were satisfied with what they got. im not trying to say quake is going to replace starcraft by any means, but i do think theres room for quake to grow. in any case, its not gonna get worse than it already is

we'll see in about a month when the amount of players has dropped off in the past 3 years

i know there has been a decrease in activity during the last 3 years, with ESWC and IEM dropping quake. you dont have to tell me over and over again, i know. what im trying to tell u is that quake has a great opportunity to grow, judging from this DH and whatever it is 2gd is doing.

Srsly don't even try to argue with ray. He has a uberly flawed "the world is going to end"-view when it comes to Quake Live.
The Russian streams alone had 2k viewers during this Dreamhack form time to time. Plus there was a German stream (I'm guessing average of several hundred viewers throughout the event) and there was the official Dreamhack stream who got in several k viewers all alone.
Yet ray still insists that there were 3000 viewers at best, already there you can see that he doesn't give a shit about reality but only focuses on his own apocalyptic-theory.

yes.

Actually, everyone has admitted the majority of viewers were starcraft players/fans. I'm speechless if you think there were 40,000 viewers and 30,000 duel players. As i tell others, there is such a thing as being a fan of the game, and being proactive. Lying to yourself and to others is not doing anyone any good and it will only make you look like a fool in the years to come.

why would anyone who wanted to watch starcraft or something else join the ql specific streams that were made for ql for this event? obviously there were a ton of sc2 watchers for the final, but the group/playoff stage streams were there specificly for QL and i doubt anyone who wasnt interested in watching QL was there

they had time to kill....read the threads on reditt and you'll see that's what the majority of people were doing while waiting for the sc2 final...

so they were obviously interested in watching ql then? no one opens a QL specific stream by accident and keeps watching unless they are interested on some level

let me go ask them....

could care less what the reasons are for people watching. Just because they watch once doesn't mean they would watch again. You're equating 40,000 viewers to customer. The vast majority said the same thing the last majority before it said as well; it's too fast, it's too crazy, it's too difficult, etc etc... Come on now. The problem for most people IS the game. The bad community/slow development/lack of tournaments only help chase them away once they attempt playing the game.

Quake needs an overhaul if it's going to be popular to the masses, then again i believe rage might have been that attempt and.... we all know how that turned out...

no one is saying every watcher is a customer. they are a possible customer and someone who has been exposed to quake.

Where's the advertising? Have you checked the ql forum threads? most people didn't even know about dreamhack because ......

.... it was never advertised...

now how can anyone tell me these developers give a flying fuck about this game when they never even bothered to take the time to advertise dreamhack on the front page of their own game site.

oh wait..... i know why, because they're too busy playing red orchestra in the weekend for 18 hours at a time, knowing full well it will take a momentous effort and tireless days of 24/7 work to get this train (game) back on track.

In other words, there's nothing pulling the gamer into quake live once he watches those final games. No break between games with a short quake live presentation (movie) that incentivizes the customer to buy. What do people know abuot quake live when they left dreamhack? That it's a dm game, that rapha and cypher are always in the finals.... and?

Do they know anything about subscriptions? about freezetag? about the other modes, anything? NO

BECAUSE THERE IS NO ADVERTISING IN QUAKE LIVE

NO SUPPORT FROM DEVELOPERS = A DEAD GAME

every post of yours is a stream of verbal diarrhea. jumping from subject to subject but never actually saying anything worthwhile. its almost as if you dont read what you reply to but just spew whatever is on your mind anyway. not to forget the factual errors in your post

but its' true. Diarrhea or not. There is no advertising. I know that upsets you, because you love to argue with me, but if you'd step back for a second, and forget who posted it, and simply focus on what was said, you can't disagree and if you do, well, it's not hard to figure out what boat you're in. Hint: A sinking one...

maybe you should get your eyes checked, there are two posts for dreamhack in their news feed in the front page

Guys simply let him have his manic-visions. If he thinks that QL is dying with the speed of light (not saying it isn't dying but it's definitely going down much slower than ray tells us) then it's his thing.

Only the fact that he can't read my post properly (I never even spoke of 40k viewers or 30k players, only that RUS streams ~2k viewers, GER stream several hundred, DH stream several thousand, this doesn't make 40k at all) and is implying that people that watch a QL stream intentionally only want to "kill time" (post 127 line 1) tells me that he doesn't know shit about the stuff he is talking and only wants to spread apocalyptic-rumors around here (then again I actually know for sure because I've read enough shit that came out of this dude's keyboard).

As Angry-Britney-Fan would say in this case: "Leave raythenoob alone!!!", I couldn't care less about the shit this guy types as long as he isn't bothering me ingame with it.

but it's definitely going down much slower than ray tells us

see this is what cracks me up about guys like you. You totally fabricate my stance on things. If you noticed, of late i've said, on 3 occassions now (once to coolout, and once to vedic) that ql is in an uptick since october (based on google trends #'s). Furthermore i even disagreed with vedic that ql's userbase was down 70% since last april (before october). I'm brutally honest. I can't please everyone that way however, and i'm ok with that.

and

is implying that people that watch a QL stream intentionally only want to "kill time"

no, i read all the threads on reddit and elsewhere in regards to dreamhack and the reasons people watched ql specifically. I even made a huge post about it in one of these threads detailing what everyone said after the final was played. Why can't you just accept it as is and move on. Thats' teh truth man and you know it. The majority of people were not there to watch ql, they were just waiting around for starcraft 2.

It's guys like you i battled in 2009 to get them to undersatnd the state ql was in. It's not till now, in 2011 that people are realizing that id is letting this game rot and die. You're stuck in 2009 if you think otherwise.

no i was referring to it dropping off over the past 3 years in february. Taht's when the general decline happens till october. The only uptick is normally around quakecon for a month and from oct to jan.

1) opportunity to grow? are you kidding me right now? THERE IS FREAKING ONE DEVELOPER WORKING ON THIS GAME. lol man what is it with you and wtfproof below. You guys are both in lala land seriously. 1 DEVELOPER.

HELLO MCFLY!!!! ANYONE HOME?

2) 9 out of 10 people say the game is too fast, too hectic, too crazy...

why is it that hard to figure out that this is, was and WILL ALWAYS BE a niche game. Nothing more, nothing less. It will never have 100,000's of thousands of people playing. If you truly think that, check out now man, cuz you're in for a HUGE dissapointment.

i tried, but u are completely unwilling to even consider the possibility that quake might live on

for the 3,000 or so left playing this game? oh no, i believe it will live on for you guys. It's all you have in life.

But besides that, Todd already said he would do anything to keep it up and running, so i have no doubt he'll spend every last penny he has on it even if it bankrupts him. This isn't a business after all, it's just a hobby right?

edit: the thing that people tend to overlook time and time again: CONVERSION, or lack thereof. You can expose millions to the game, as was the case (not literally) in beta, but to keep people interested/playing, there has to be a groundswell support from both the community and......

yup you guess it.... THE DEVELOPERS

Who haven't put any serious effort into this game since beta and you know it. They've checked out, probably know they're on a timeline now (perhaps been told to shut it down by so and so or if profits hit a certain level, like a stoploss on a stock) and as such couldn't be bothered to put in any more effort than they have in the past.

We need new blood in that department. New developers who are energized , who are willing to communicate with the community. who hold contests, who fix the problems in the game based on priorities (not on what's easiest to do and not done to lengthen the changelog to appear to the unaware that almost nothing was done). Oh yes sponge, as a mapmaker i know all about those tricks (writing long lists of bugfixes only the developer knows about). If you can make a list like that full of changes that are actually on the priority list then you'll get some praise, but not when you make a list full of 20 online spelling error

In conclusion, for people to stay in the game, more has to be done to CONVERT them over to the dark side of sorts. As it stands now, once they sign up, nothing or noone is keeping them interested. A mandatory mentoring program would have helped in that respect but....

99% of your stats are made up

oh right, 8.5 out of 10 people said it's too fast and crazy, etc...

zzzz lol gtfo

Will quake be in DHS12 ?? :)

I think 2GD confirmed it somewhere during his casting and in some thread on esr.

Yep, he confirmed for 2 dh's next year(summer/winter).

We should have CPL style double elim 1 map selection open tournaments with 15 min games. This will add some randomness (aka excitement) into the game. Since the tournament will be open, and the chance to at least make it through on your best map, I think we would see an increase in players.

Although I like the 3 map format, I do think single random maps are easier to watch and make it much easier to remember "great" games. The last few years the tournaments have kinda blended together and it's hard to recall which games happened when, and there are much fewer surprises.

i didnt watch a single tdm match :( and 80% of my time spent playing quake was with tdm.

i used to love playing tdm. now I like it thanks to the uberaim everyone has. no skill involved.

now, duel is what is most interesting.. support duel and organise some random 2v3/4v4 showmatch w/e. but pour the money into duel and we will see awesomenss

tdm just doesnt work so well in ql

id kill for a game of q3 osp tdm on dm7 :>

fuck yeah! what about organising such an event? id be glad to play/cast!!!!!

dm6,dm7, dm14 all the way!

hehe :) Would love to see it happen

fuck yes lets watch people rail/mg all day long. yaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

and plasma :D

nah, plazma,rockets can also do so much on dm7

4vs4 TDM:
Boring because you don't see the whole picture only some players pov. If there would be a possibility for at least 2-3 different povs at a time then it probably would get better. But for general watching and especially for people who don't know a lot about Quake it is uber-boring.

CTF:
I kind of find it way more interesting to watch even tough you again don't get to see all the different povs. But here at least you have a clear goal (get flag -> bring it back to your base and score -> repeat) and you can focus more on the important moments (in TDM only when quad spawns you have moments where you catch all the action). So better than 4vs4 TDM but still very unfriendly spectator-vise.

Duel:
Not much to say about this. Two players going against each other on a fairly small map with lots of action that always is caught on camera. It's true that the top 16 (apart from some new players that pop up here and there) has remained the same since ~2008, but the games are still exciting and always good for spectating. Plus we allready have the team-shooter niche filled in eSports with games like CS, CS:S, CoD and perhaps BF3, where as in 1on1 aspect we only have Quake Live to deliver.

2vs2 TDM:
Way better than 4on4. You can catch more action because of less players, plus the maps that would be played are way smaller and easier to follow for a spectator. Plus the games are more crispy because of the 15 minutes timelimit (20 minutes is just too much for me when I spectate 4vs4).

In my opinion a perfect QL tournament (or the perfect DHS'12) would have a Open Duel Tournament with the top 4 qualifying for the Main Tournament with 12 invite-slots (Double Elim with Bo3 rounds and 2xBo3 finals) and a 2vs2 TDM Open Tournament with up to 32 slots (Double Elim Bo3 until the final where it is 2xBo3).

"2vs2 TDM:
Way better than 4on4."



lol

By ins: ...

LOL

sup

nothing really, sup with you?

No TDM, no CTF. Large duel tournament with invites and qualifiers. Double elim. With ztn.

with ztn + dismemberment / bo5 from semis + bo7 finals

What bo5 rounds with only ztn? :D

Yeah we need to make up for lost time!

CTF or TDM could work if they actually decided to introduce splitscreen ala goldeneye. As it stands now, it's too difficult for "non quake viewers" to know what's going on with the way these games are casted (follow killer/flagrunner/defender). Splitscreen would "noobify" viewing these game modes.

Then again, based on how the quake community does things, they'll just overcomplicate it ....and then they wonder why the average person doesn't understand the game of quake

simple.... keep it simple...

If it was up to me it would be 1 duel tourney with bigger prize money.

+ ztn, dm6, t7, t4, aero and dm13.. (old maps ftw).

that way newcomers wont have a chance at all. new maps is what the crowd needs - and the players as well to keep them motivated OR not as cooller proves over and over again (:

but u cant blame him - when the map is shit, he is not really inclined to learn it. (=pointing at hektik here)

some of you people are fickle spoiled brats.

TDM is great in so many ways, one of which is empowering the duel community by letting certain players shine, the other is by displaying Quake melee. You wouldn't have any quake without the TDM heritage, because Quake is not a duel game, its a FFA game. Duel can NOT even exist without the TDM, because no one get into or learns Quake through Duel. To ask to kill it in the current circumstances is like burning a winning lottery ticket...

so true. I've never understood the fascination with duel since quake was always a team death match game. All me and my friends ever played on lan in quake 2 was ffa, duel was never even talked about....

that's cuz u were all n00bs

elitism for the loss. keep it up, you'll just alienate more of that new playerbase you so desperately need.

it's the attitude of guys like you that caused people to quit the game.

You know that guy is a rainbow faggot hacker right? He posted a thread with his 50+ accounts. I'm looking out for you, raythenoob.

hackers in quake live? say it aint so.

thanks 270, i'll go report him right away so id can ban him ...

oh wait....

it's been way past 50 a long time ago, sweetie :*

Only 50 accounts? lol dude, incubus has like 100, tommeh like 200 and detlew like 500. You're way behind in the alt account leaderboard.

most ppl are not claiming that TDM is not good. It was just boring to watch due to the one-sidedness of the bigger part of the games.

And the potentially nailbiter right down to the end match between 300 and trainspotters didnt happen due to brackets.

So at this dh TDM was boring and not much fun for spectators. Still a good gamemode tho.

I can understand how either duel or tdm can be boring, I actually think most duel games are way more prone to that. Ownage tdm games are actually more entertaining to casual spectators. But regardless of spectator attractiveness, my point is that TDM is more important to the Quake community at large.

hmm im not so sure everybody's first competitve steps are in TDM and i dont think most top duelers came from there. Its a good growth pool tho for more duelers that can aim and multitask. But then again so is FFA CTF or FT.

duel/tdm/ctf(a bit less so) are synergistic at a high level

agree

no doubt about it. There's a flow to those games. But as a couple viewers on reddit said, following tdm is too difficult and duel, conversely, is easy on the eyes as you know exactly what's going on.

Solution:

Theater Action Gallery

imagine for a second 2 sets of 4, 60 inch plasma screens hanging on the wall, with the audience in a moshpit of sorts in the center. Each corner heavily designated by a red or blue color with each set of screens mounted 2 feet apart from the other. With the names of the players underneath the screen. viewers would be able to pick and choose who to watch and more importantly be able to see the other person in battle. This way the screen doesn't have to be cut in half and everyone could follow everyone throughout the entire game. I"m sure commentators could cast specific screens, could even get 8 neon light sets and mout them on all 8 monitors to let audiences know who they are casting. All in all, there's very little done in most tournaments to teach the newcomer to the game.

This past dreamhack i saw a brief description via spectator cam of some of the weapons and hud elements in the game. But no mention of weapon damage, etc. This is where they could have made use of a map overview (like they do before each hole in golf) and moreover, a fancy graphic table showing the images of the weapons and the damage they inflict per shot, etc.

Furthermore people were sitting a mile back from the action. These tournaments should be personal so people can get involved. If they changed the layout to a dome of sorts and lower the screens to eye level with a slightly recessed floor, people would be much more in-tuned with what was happening in the game. Right now they're cramped looking up at the screens for 20-30 minutes and dont' feel like they are part of the action. Plus you have them sitting in chairs. If you stand people up they'll be much more aware. This is, after all, a young e-sport right? or are we trying to make room for 60 year olds in the audience?

There's just no innovation in this game. I had a thread of over 8 pages long containing probably 10 million characters of suggestions on the old forum, yet they all went unread. I'm sure this suggestion will go up in smoke as well, because the problem lies within this community. People here RESIST CHANGE. They are too scared their favorite game will be changed, even if we're simply talking about the way the game is presented in tournaments.

so i dont' expect any change since it's like pulling teeth around here.

my point is that TDM is more important to the Quake community at large

most people play clan arena, not tdm

that's too fucking bad, they are playing a stupid game. instead they should be playing deathmatch with item control and some form of strategy.

agreed. clan arena is just s spamfest. The only reason anyone plays ca is to avoid the stackers in ctf and mainly because of the fact that it is the only mode that has a playerbase, at all (on us servers at least).

I started with duel and will continue to play duel. So did some of my friends, so your statement is not quite correct.

he's right though. this game started as a deathmatch game, it didn't start with duel. You couldn't be more wrong.

Might have been different in the past, but I don't think I know a single person who got into QL via TDM. The path I've seen is almost always CA/FFA/Insta -> Duel.

most people i know start with ffa then move to ctf/ca/tdm and lastly duel. They definetely don't start with duel that's for sure. Wtfproof is mental if he thinks that.

since you mention 'ca', I assume you're talking about QL, which has been fucked up from start. it is amazing to me there are ANY new duel players in it at all.

dunno how other players feel but ql ctf just seems broken to me, especially with the current map pool. apart from ironworks don't like a single map.

2v2 tdm is like a really bad compromise. its too close to duel and u dont really see the focus on coordination as much. still if there arent enough teams for 4v4 then 2v2 is worth trying i guess.

if they dont announce the tournies early enough to get teams, then just stick with one duel tournament imo.

imho there are several good maps other than iron works -.-

troubled waters, space ctf, courtyard conundrum, skyward, finnegans revenge, industrial accident, japanese castles, siberia and ofc adam's new map reflux.

dunno how other players feel but ql ctf just seems broken to me

you just figured this out now? no wonder noone else has spoken out about this. it is 100% broken beyond belief. blue always gets first spectator when teams are tied, shuffle always pins the 4 best on one team, locking teams is a hassle for most noobs, if they even know the command. And the inability to callvote kick/temp ban during game is major fail when you have someone ruining the game. Then again ctf on pub servers is meant to be broken so people are forced to go premium if they want some kind of control over things.

The problems you have are as follows:

- The top duel players prefer TDM to CTF so already at these LANs if you want to support a duel event with a team game, TDM is the better choice.
- CTF streams have always had lower numbers than TDM.
- TDM wins the votes for what the majority of people would rather see.

TDM might not be perfect and could always be improved but it is more popular than CTF, CA, FT. While the turnout at DHW was not perfect there are mitigating circumstances for that.

The point at the moment is we have a team game type at these LANs. Part of the reason Quake was fading was the lack of that team aspect being promoted. While many people can watch duel from other games, most do not want to go and play it one on one. The most popular games to play are always team based games.

We need a team mode there to build up quake. We need it as evidence there is more than just 8 pro duellers that basically can't be caught and just perform a few show events every year for money (which rapha or cypher win).

Now despite the fact CTF is inferior and a flawed game type to stream I wouldn't be against that mode being at LAN, I just think TDM is the better option especially in Quake Live.

Lets not kill off Quake again with demands on only having duel events again, it is a mistake we made once and we should aim not to repeat it.

I have some ideas for making TDM more spectator friendly and I think it is best to share them. Perhaps, like the scoreboard thread we can all work on these ideas together and create something id could very easily adapt into the game.

TDM will never be spec friendly. For non quake players its just a spam fest. You die you respawn maybe get a weapon get few kills and die again. There is strategy on tdm but you have to be a tdmer to understand it. The game is too fast for a caster to explain it well on higher level. Yes there is few insight here and there but most of the time its play by play casting so unfamiliar people to quake or tdm are still left confused.

In ctf even if people cant understand what going on, they can stil enjoy seeing aimwhoring from the players nice lg battles insane flick rails air rock, etc (those can happen in TDM too but lot less frequently) or nice movement (i cant really see someone not being amaze by linkin rjs on ctf2). Plus there is always that lil adrenaline when a players doesnt have a lot of health and doing a flag run.

Top duel player (those who are invited and sponsored) prefer tdm but they dont even practice it so why care about their opinion? Yes they can form teams but without proper practice theyll only be fodders to the real Tdmer.

In ctf, since teamwork isnt that much of a big deal player who didnt have time to prac togheter or even never played together can still rely on aim/stealth/dodging and hold their ground to better teams. Thus making more close game and making quake matches more exciting. With CA being the most popular game mode of QL (no its not tdm) theres a ton of aim player who can transfer from CA to ctf rather quickly.

TDM will never be spec friendly. For non quake players its just a spam fest. You die you respawn maybe get a weapon get few kills and die again. There is strategy on tdm but you have to be a tdmer to understand it.

this. CTF is the only mode that could truly be successful since most people know the concept of capture the flag. But CTF and TDM have both failed as it is so perhaps CA should get a shot before the team event idea is scrapped all together.

I already asked this before a Quakecon some time ago, but I ask it again:

Do you think it's possible that pro players on tournaments would just play a quick CTF / FT / CA pickup in the stream. There are no prices or pre-determined teams involved, just a quick game for the community between the matches or at the end of the day.
I think people would enjoy watching some pro players playing CTF or Freeztag with some quality coverage. I understand that you have to practice a lot before an event, but they are all well experienced players and the skill-level of the game would be still pretty high and an entertaining show.
It's not only that you would address a wider audience because of the fans of the particular gametype, but it would also show more aspect of the game itself for those who never played.

ps.: I don't know any pro player personally , so if this is "NoGo" and they won't move a finger without a prize, sorry about asking....

Last dreamhack was awesome in regards too TDM, so i think its just down to teams practising and not just mixes that show up for the event and use ZERO tactics.
I know the q3 golden days are long gone, but fuck me, colwn had one strategy on osp5, hold mega/rail/ya's/ra or CONTROL THE WHOLE MAP. That bothered me so much,.. TDM used to be about timing, coordinated attacks, there is so much depth for tactics.
It's sad that online TDM tourneys are currently much better quality.
So is it all down too popularity and/or lack of id updates/tweaks and perhaps maps.

p.s. Thanks for casting my favorite mod and doing it well :)

add some threewave maps to ql ctf

and lets go dreamhack ctf :D

CTF is more fun to watch. TDM had its 15 minutes of fame.

agreed

true, too bad CTF already failed at qcon 2010

that was a huge success...

20 minutes

both tdm and ctf are always going to pale in comparison to the lan tournaments of the golden era of q3. unless there is some miraculous HUGE increase in player base, especially in the competitive community, duel tournaments will be the only hope for QL

Thing is, imo, it doesn't matter if TDM or CTF is chosen at an event when it comes to teams going there.

If you announce any mode 3-4 months in advanced at a tournament next to a 16/32 slot duel tournament. Add some prize money and include a decent set of rules/mappools. Teams will have the time to form, set goals and make room in their personal lives to attend the event.

There are, looking at my experience in the CTF community, enough teams that would attend/form/reform to compete at such an event. As many teams as TDM would have. You can't base anything on online activity, because quite some teams don't even play together online and still are there on LAN just for competing at the event.

I would for example stress my team to get back if a CTF tournament on LAN was announced 3 to 4 months in advanced. Just so we can plan it out and schedule it around our private lives. My employer would never give me 2 to 3 days off two weeks before I know I could attend.

We don't play online now, but we would get back into shape just to be in the competition in a LAN environment. And I think a lot of teams would do it. There are some top duelers who are also top CTF players, so they can easily fit in there as well. Just as much as they are somewhat viable in a TDM format.

If a well scheduled/announced event would feature CTF next to duel, I think it wouldn't disappoint at all. It just doesn't get the chance. The people who take Quakecon as example forget that most good CTF teams are in Europe without sponsors. They can't just go over there to play in a single elimination bracket for 5000 euro.

However you can get a full team of four players to for example Sweden for 200-300 euro. Germany would also be a good location, since it is more centered.

Sorry for leaning more towards CTF in my post, but I think you can pretty much replace it with TDM in words as well. I think the organization is just the main problem if you put other factors as ID software support / maps / inactivity aside for a moment. You have to start somewhere and I think seeing these passed events being last minute towards players, it would solve a lot.

don't apologize for that, ctf > tdm by far. idk why ppl keep on saying tdm is most popular. in na it is not for sure. most played gametype atm is ca, ctf wasn't doing bad about 1-2 years ago. but we can place the blame on id for the flaws everyone knows about, especially for the death of ctf.

Belgium would even be a better location!

Agree with you btw, a ctf tournament (next to duel) would be a good idea. Any chance to see vertex play on LAN again would be sweet =)

I am quite sure that all the people that say "TDM is boring" have never played TDM at all ...

when a TDM tournament have no skill gap like dreamhack and 5 or 6 teams can make a win it its quite awesome ...

see for example current ESL TDM tournament where skill between clans is quite similar ...

spectators aren't saying tdm is boring to play or watch, they are saying it's too difficult to follow, which = they get frustrated / bored....

i gave a solution to that problem above, maybe you have one, otherwise tdm will never work for the viewer.

Many games are hard to follow unless you play them. Pretty much every FPS in fact because you need to be able to visualise the 3D environment in your head first.

To me something like SC2 makes no sense because I do not play it and they constantly click from one spot to another so I really never get an idea of where something is happening. If I watched it all the time I would learn it and that is the same with any Quake mode, but I have not been caught up in all the SC2 hype.

The truth is none of the team modes in Quake are quite right, they need to be more objective/round based on more simple linear maps that people can learn very quickly with shorter round times and clear goals. RTCW is my idea of a great team game to spectate.

Even if no new mode is created we can tweak the current modes to improve them for spectators. Even the maps could take simple changes and the spectator features could be vastly improved.

then better leave it fun to play, rather fun to watch imho.

Well you can find a balance. I think often things that make something more spectator friendly also make it more enjoyable to play too.

they constantly click from one spot to another so I really never get an idea of where something is happening

you have to look on the mini-map for the white outline, that's the viewable area they are showing.

Yeah its not really a very good interface though is it.

nope it isn't, i agree. It could probably be a bit larger and lighter. I've always thought a splitscreen scenario, with one screen showing the locations of both players, and the other 2 screens showing their individual game footage. I'ts just a matter of hooking up 3 computers instead of 2, with an enlarged version of the mini map as an overlay. Could be done with ql as well. Either way, in regards to the topic at hand, i sitll think sc2 is more spectator friendly than ql. What sc2 could improve on, is perhaps lowering the camera angles so the action is more personal.

It is better in some ways and worse in others. It is better at showing the strategy but awful at showing the technical ability, which is something quake does well. But thats more down to the types of games they actually are more than spectator features.

that's about right. Still both can be improved upon. i'd love to see that 360 panoramic view as a spectator in cs.

Even if no new mode is created we can tweak the current modes to improve them for spectators. Even the maps could take simple changes and the spectator features could be vastly improved.

id hasn't touched CTF once in its game history. They've made some minor changes with TDM but CTF is broken beyond belief. The spectator issue is certainly in need of an overhaul, but with these developers you can't expect much of anything anymore.

Many games are hard to follow unless you play them. Pretty much every FPS in fact because you need to be able to visualise the 3D environment in your head first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqh_F4iN8pg

problem solved

Re-thinking it a bit, as I liken Quake to Formula 1 as the most similar sport, you have to learn the layout of tracks to fully understand that too, but most people don't, so as long as the action spots are highlighted it is fine.

Hell no

"thumbs up"

can we get ql and cpm duel? ;>

CTF + DUEL, both open would be awesome or at least duel should have a lot of online qualifiers for EU, US and AU.

Duel and tdm is fine if given enough time.

I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching ql ctf...

Anyways, the main problem with the recent TDM tourneys is the lack of preparation due to late announcements. I think the quality of the TDM games in QC and DHW would have been much better had they announced 2-3 months earlier than they were. Even then.. I really enjoyed watching them. Aside from the fact that the quality of the games weren't even near the level of DHS, I still think that TDM is the better choice for LAN tournament play.

I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching ql ctf...

I don't know how anyone can enjoy playing it. I've had more fun raging in counter strike than the only two games of ql ctf I've ever played.

I dislike ql ctf as well, but it's simply easier to follow.
Also you can play it on pub servers, whereas you can't really play good TDM pubs.

in the end ctf deserves a shot in an european event. TDM had it's 15 minutes of fame.

you can't really play good TDM pubs

fixed that for you

ctf already had its chance in 2009 at quakecon. It's time to try freezetag

I don't know how anyone can enjoy playing it. I've had more fun raging in black ops arcade than the only two games of ql tdm I've ever played.

I don't know how anyone can enjoy playing it. I've had more fun raging in battlefield 2 than the only two games of ql freezetag i've ever played.

Why are you still here? Isnt there any other site you can harass? You are questioning vedic why he is here on a mainly quake oriented site, but why are you here?

Every thread, every news post, every column i open i see you ranting about the same boring bs. Dont you have anything better to do? You must have written thousands of meters text by now. Enough is enough please stop. No one cares, the little empathy for your imaginary peresecution i might at some time have felt for you is long gone. You are just annoying.

And since the site is for some reason logging me out all the time, i mostly dont bother to log in. So putting you on ignore isnt much help.

i'm trying to get some dilluted people to realize what is holding ql back. But feel free to ignore me and stay the course. You'll get the same ql game you have now. How's that working out for you so far?

meh, you're probably playing on premium with the same 20 people for the past year. Don't bother replying then. you're not the majority.

cba to read all the thread, but..

2v2 and 4v4 TDM
4v4 CTF
AND
DUEL ofc :)

obv it'll never happen but we can dream ;)

I don't play v.much infact zero tdm/ctf lately but CTF > TDM :)

2v2 and 4v4 TDM
4v4 CTF
AND
DUEL ofc :)

that's great news!! So you'll be funding this venture? awesome. Can you also fund the entire game, id seems to be short of cash.

Thanks

I agree with everything Blad3 said.

Give CTF a chance in .eu.
Im pretty sure clans would make a comeback for it and alot of teams would attend as most of them would have a chance winning it all.

CPM CTF GOGOGOGO

I dont get the excitement of ctf, some defending the flag for 20 min, some rush the flag for 20 min, then theres a bit of pu and one trys to reach the base with the flag on the back. Its like a bit of everything thrown together, which doesnt make it better. I think my 'problem' with ctf is that a frag doesnt really count anything.
I also dont see why tdm should be harder to understand. Its basically holding primary, time items and set up quad, how hard is that? I've seen 2F vs unknown (I think) a few days ago and map 1 was pretty close and it still didnt really entertain me. But maybe its just me, so fair enough, each to its own. For me, nothing is better than watching a great Quad run.

Peace <3

ps. the problem of dh wasnt the modes, it was the skill level.
Easy rapes suck in all modes, doesnt matter if its duel, ctf or tdm.