Supposedly, Brian was permanently banned around a month ago for calling SyncError a nigger. Demex, Ganja, etc. confirmed it, but they might have been covering for Brian.
According to Ganja, Brian now spends his day "playing sc2 and xbox."

Brian was banned once before that for spreading hacks to Ganja and etc.

Since trolling thorian's mumble for around a month, the thread may or not be true. Cha1n usually calls me a faggot, then mutes me. The people in thorian's mumble usually use the Mumble to talk about League of Legends. I've never heard cha1n talk about QLHook, but that may be because I didn't go there before October.

The mumble usually consists of:
Demex
ckz
ownz0r
cha1n
avenger (th3_4v3ng3r, demex's cousin)
Ganja
gLocK
jtocs
BrianSong (before he got banned)
iNstiN
tylerpowers
thorian
bertox (occasionally)
Sub
Turbulence
etc.

thanks for that list. superjake just confirmed avenger = th3_4v3ng3r / kpx_ ... not avenged 8x. mistake on his part, so i removed the bit about avenged 8x.

avenged being on the list wouldn't be hard to believe...

Turbulence is one of the nicest guys around

Why can't nice people cheat?

because nice people believe in fairness. While the aholes who spam binds every minute in games are the ones cheating as they believe in bullying and embarassing their opponents. It's easy to see who's capable of cheating based on those last 2 qualities. Just look for people who spam smily faces, stack teams, play below their tier and those who are generally intimidating and antogonistic towards others in quake live.

yes, look at stermy, rapha, and cooller you ignorant slut raythenoob

ah, a wiseass eh.... why i oughta...

do tell me what the purpose of a smily is, oh yeah, its' to rub in a frag, to demorailize your opponent, to make them rage, to make yourself feel superior, to make it seem as though you are unphased by a frag/death, to appear conescending, to annoy

bottom line, people who use these smily binds are just trying to piss their opponents off. Go ahead, tell me otherwise lol

so when I spam smileys after getting fragged, does that mean I'me an extra-nice guy?

It means you're trying to appear unphased by getting fragged.

No it means it was a great frag and i dont have time to type nice frag :D

NA LOL

cheaters in quake live? unpossible....

inb4 yakumo, "there are no cheaters in ql"

vault69/seduc3r exposed:

seduc3r: (18:32:57) id know i did that for an hr when it cam out i told them i did lol
seduc3r: (18:33:42) tthey told me not to do it again there watchiung me and i said i dont plane on it
dutra: (18:34:12) so u hacked for an hour?
dutra: (18:34:13) lol.
seduc3r: (18:34:27) yep maybe an hr and a half
seduc3r: (18:34:40) long time ago
seduc3r: (18:34:53) everyone knows
seduc3r: (18:35:09) but u on the other hand everyday thing
seduc3r: (18:35:41) noone in ql can do what u did that day i was specin u

^ rofl. you would think they would keep a low profile / not group up like that, but the fact that they have a hacker pact LOOOOOOOOOOL

superjake is not a valid, reliable and trusty source of information, especially in regards to whose cheating in QL.

In fact, he's one of the last people who should be consulted as he's extremely unintelligible.

why not? lol, and if he isnt, then who is?

serious business indeed.

superjake lol

don't get me started on superjake lol

get started imo.

What's wrong with superjake?

superjake = supertroll

How so? Examples?

promised flight + hotel + $2000 gaming pc's for a bunch of NA players before Qcon. Never happened. Excuses till the cows come home.

I think I remember telling a bunch of players that the chances of them going were slim to none regardless of what was told to them.

Well being that I have been an admin for quake 2 & quake 3 for OGL. Head admin for GGL, & ESL NA and have 12+ years experience playing Quake. It's not hard to catch people who are hacking. And above all I have always had a personal policy of NEVER accusing anyone without proof. If you read closely I was listening to them on mumble (using a different name) while spectating them on a server talking about how to use the hack.

And it didn't occur to you to record the conversation? Or should we just trust your word on the case? Sorry if I'm missing something.

True, if not using the in-built recording function of Mumble - rendering a secret recording useless due to the icon showing others that you are recording - rather use an external audio recording tool.

You can use a prog like Winamp to record. :E

I just think people would want to see more than a screenshot of a mumble window + irc logs.

HURR DURR PEOPLE ON A MUMBLE

MUST BE CHEATING.


I was given admin on that mumble quite a while ago, and I don't cheat. Also, several players use that mumble for pickups, or at least did.

This is new levels of stupid

This was a long time ago, the players named on the mumble list were the people caught. I am not saying that everyone who is on that mumble now cheats. But at that time it was. It was confirmed when I was on the Quake Live server spectating while under an alias on mumble. Just because you're on it now is irrelevant. I think you're misunderstanding. Again I am not saying everyone who has EVER been on thorian's mumble is or was a hacker. But during that particular time It was all hackers. I cannot recall the exact date. So that leads me to believe you came on after this incident happened. So before you just start throwing words around like 'stupid', think about it.

I was on the mumble when it was made, before all this. I wasn't calling you stupid, so don't get up in arms about that. This entire thread is though.

No evidence so it's all bunk, and should be locked/deleted.

I didn't know how to record it. I didn't even have mumble until I was told about this particular server.

as an admin, im sure you understand how their will be doubt until proof is shown. if one of your league's/tournament's players says he saw a hack but didnt have demos, you couldn't take any action.

btw, wasnt that SJ clan called superjake? u has fans bro

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2180891#pid2180891

american QL scene is fun it seems

fun for guys like candyass, av8r, incubus, everybodypoops and bacon_cupcakes, otherwise no...

After seeing that list, I'm not surprised. I have, at one point or another, suspected most on that list of hacking. I've never really heard anything bad about POWERSTYLER recently he's gotten beast on the CA scene. The $ clan has always aroused some suspicion, and i've noticed recently that a couple of their players have turned to shit, whereas a few weeks ago they were raping hard. Another thing which might draw some ire, is DEMEX. He's been caught before(supposedly his dad was the culprit) in q3, and he has close ties with a lot of these guys caught hacking. It's not just guilt by association. :P jayy(Vajayjay) has been toggling for the longest time now. There are many others ofcourse but they slip my mind at the moment. It's really not even worth playing because the ghost of cheaters past has really sullied Quake. You can't even be sure who the legit players are anymore.


DERB.

totally agree.

nice work detective derb.

LOL @ Derb calling me hacks.

I love you derb, I really do.

Seriously though, I'm not nearly good enough to be considered a toggler. What, I hit a few flick rails and some lucky spam shots I cheat?

K, go make me tacos now derb. :)

excuse me?There are multiple guys in my clan,most bouncing to and from t3/t4.Good guys with jobs and familys.Second of all,who went from rape to shit?Talking out ur ass son.I heard someone say this to me once,i went from shit to good.Kid ive been playing this game since february 2009,i have every award for playing ungodly hrs,ive played quake live more than any profile ive layed eyes on between my 2 accounts sumting/unscarr3d.Two people in my huge clan got banned,and i wish you nerds would quit acting like you caught them,they gladdly admitted to it.They EXPOSED themselves,NOT ANYONE ELSE.Their attempt to show all the pub players what these haxers are doing,only backfired and hurt there reputation.These to guys are my brothers and i salute them for what they did.But leave the rest of my clan alone.I have studied almost every player i see in quake live over and over and over for hrs,rewatching demos.And i am telling you ,i know for damn sure,there are 15 to 20 of em.All with 20 alaises.Us legit players see 200 guys raping and destroying servers,when in reality,its the same 20 punks,always has been.I can tell from there movements and style,its easy to see.These guys are also the most popular players in quake,everyone knows em.Im not kissing their ugly asses anymore,and they aint fooling this man.

excuse me?There are multiple guys in my clan,most bouncing to and from t3/t4.Good guys with jobs and familys.Second of all,who went from rape to shit?Talking out ur ass son.I heard someone say this to me once,i went from shit to good.Kid ive been playing this game since february 2009,i have every award for playing ungodly hrs,ive played quake live more than any profile ive layed eyes on between my 2 accounts sumting/unscarr3d.Two people in my huge clan got banned,and i wish you nerds would quit acting like you caught them,they gladdly admitted to it.They EXPOSED themselves,NOT ANYONE ELSE.Their attempt to show all the pub players what these haxers are doing,only backfired and hurt there reputation.These to guys are my brothers and i salute them for what they did.But leave the rest of my clan alone.I have studied almost every player i see in quake live over and over and over for hrs,rewatching demos.And i am telling you ,i know for damn sure,there are 15 to 20 of em.All with 20 alaises.Us legit players see 200 guys raping and destroying servers,when in reality,its the same 20 punks,always has been.I can tell from there movements and style,its easy to see.These guys are also the most popular players in quake,everyone knows em.Im not kissing their ugly asses anymore,and they aint fooling this man.

I was given that mumble the day it was put up. If I'm not mistaken it had no pw and the info was freely available to anyone who asked. Then again, clearly the fact I knew the info combined with my insane abilities must make someone think i cheat. Please accuse me I really need an ego boost lately to help my game. I often can play well do to in game insults which have piercing wit ingrained in their construction, as if Shakespeare's ghost decided to troll me. Humor me. Suspect me. Make a movie of me with flares and cool effects and I will pay pal you 3 dollars for every frag in it. DOES NO ONE OUT THERE THINK I AM HACKING?! WHY DOTH GOD FORSAKE ME TO DWELL AMONGST THE TROLLS AND IMPS, YET ILLUSIONS MY APPEARANCE AS NOTHING MORE THAN A WEAK FAIRY?
Do you bite your thumb at me sir?
How did you see me bite it behind this castle wall?
*ACTION FIGHT SCENE* *MISINTERPRETATION AS LOVE STORY*

lol krailed. You are great man.

it's obvious noone cares anymore. If they get banned, they'll just make a new account and rinse/repeat till infinity. It just boggles the mind that the zenimax conglomerate isn't doing anything to stop the bleeding. Either put some resources into this game or shut it down, all they're doing now is making a joke out of it. Maybe that's the idea, to embarass id before they cut ties with them.

They can't "cut ties" with id, they own the company.

They can force them to work on other projects however, projects that will be profitable for them.. Working on ql just steals resources from rage, etc.

Trigger bot is by far the easiest to tell if someone is using it IMO......and that is what those shitty bad terribles $ were using. Now they are back to complete shit like before.

what is trigger bot ?

No proof - no ban.

who the fuck
what the fuck
get the fuck
out

qwerty typewriter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who are they? Are they considered ok in NA?

nobodies and no.

Demex was banned in RA3, but it was a admin ban, not a PB ban.
So it doesn't really mean much.

demex was BANNED a few times and yes one of them by an admin after he failed to turn in a demo when the other team suspected him of hacking and it was made clear before the match everyone was to record and ss, He also was banned by PB twice and most of f-27 in q3 did hack. Not saying demex hacks now but he did.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know if demex hacks or not, but he is a serious douchebag/jerk on servers + has lots of accounts.

It really boggles my mind why someone would behave that way.

he is a serious douchebag/jerk on servers + has lots of accounts

but it's ok if incubus does it? good analogy there.

incubus blows though

yea Demex has numerous accounts. I don't understand it. Out of all the players I know on QL, i'm sure
he has the most aliases. Who knows how many expiring accounts he has lol

He doesn't have the most aliases, but he has a lot.
The one he uses most seems to be adrofl_hitlol.

not more than detlew

What is this, where am i?

you're in the quake death afterlife

Quake hes been in the afterlife since 2004(2003),...your point?

that we're STILL in the quake death afterlife....

Yes that hasn't changed in the past 8years and i doubt it ever will.


YOUR POINT?

(see what i am getting at? the golden days are long gone, whatever popularity quakelive had is negligible compared to the good old days...so why keep repeating "quake is dead", what does that do?)

i'm not vedic, and only thing dead, that i can personally confirm is the u.s scene. And the only time i set someone straight is when someone attempts to tell newcomers the game is thriving particularly on premium servers, it just sickens me when i see that level of deception.

yes, the situation with the US ql scene is sad,...i didn't follow the previous convo, i just don't like my favorite game to be called dead constantly :D

Remember Quake 2? Well, Quake 2 ra2 was my favorite game of all time... that is until the hacking began and just kept getting worse. Then finally it killed the game. That sucked! I loved that game so much and had more fun playing it than any other game up to this day. Now I see the exact same thing happening to Quake Live. I enjoy playing Quake Live. I find it very fun and it's the best pc game I have ever played next to Quake 2. So when I started working as an admin, I made it a mission to catch anyone who was hacking and get that information to SyncError ASAP to try to put a stop to it. I don't think Quake Live is dead yet, but if the hacking continues I don't see how it will survive. Earlier yesterday I was talking with dutra and showed him the logs posted here. He felt it should be posted on ESR & I 100% agreed. I believe if more people start catching hackers, making demos of them for proof and sending them to the Quake Live staff... it could save the game from going under. If you don't agree that's fine. But if you do, please, lets all make an extra effort to catch these people before they ruin yet another Quake series.

I think it's too late for this game. Quake Live is practically on its hind leg and a broken one at that. I myself uninstalled a couple days ago. I will still try to catch streams and such from the numerous tournaments. I admit, during the last few months, I became severely suspicious of a lot of players and it might've been unwarranted for some. But one cannot deny that many players, especially in the CA scene, were cheating. I just can't have any fun anymore and that killed the game for me. How can we spot a cheater who knows how to strafe and has decent aim but toggles? It's just become intolerable for many of the really good players who are legit. The community was already dying due to ID's negligence but all this hacking not only turned off the newer players, but also the veterans. 12 years I've spent playing Quake, and to ultimately have it end in this manner is sad. Not only for me, but for the many people who've enjoyed playing it.

there will always be cheaters in videogames. Thing is it shouldn't be that easy to do it in quake live.

Q2 is a good example. Most community-made clients were specifically created to deal with that issue, and they worked pretty well until the last one got discontinued (r1ch's r1q2).
The same happens with current games, in which the developer creates and supports the anticheat system: works great at the beginning, since 0.001% cheats, but it's dropped in a year or so and by that time it's pretty easy to bypass the anticheat and there are no manual bans.

in the current state of the game and of the company, the number one priority should be to keep the game running, that's it. That won't happen without an actively supported anticheat.

th3_4v3ng3r admits that everyone on thorian's Mumble hacks

http://i.imgur.com/35r6K.png
http://i.imgur.com/VxSvf.png

i think it's kind of funny how dutra, the guy who hangs around with Napalm3D_ these days, is calling people a hacker.

mind you that all of dutra's past quakelive accounts which all have a day to 2 days playing time, are banned:

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/great
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/dt_
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/_gr8
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/dt
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/dutra

briansong got banned because he ASKED SyncError what would happen if someone called him a "nigger". instantly, he was permanently banned. however, supposedly he did use a hack, i am unaware of the duration though

this game is dead, if you still have to cheat, go ahead, no one good from CA plays anyways.

what? when have i ever hung out with napalm3d? LOl.

as for my account bans: http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/4771/dutra.png

haha that's funny, was just about to post that same screenshot from vile's thread. ah well

haha

derp

aw, what it got nuked, cmon xou :(

yea lol

lol now admins have to approve my post and i can't send imsgs. and that because of a joke... just lol. hey xou, be sure this won't go unrewarded, i give you 3 days to redo that and we forget about it. if not it'll have consequences

i give you 3 days to redo that and we forget about it. if not it'll have consequences

watcha gonna do when they come for you

bad boy bad boy

watcha gonna do? watcha gonna do when they come for youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

I've yet to see evidence of widespread hacking. You guys complain and complain and I've seen MAYBE two-three people hacking. The rest were just decent players.

Everytime I hit 35+ LG in a FFA or CA I get called a hacker. That's the environment that's been created; a huge witch-hunt that doesn't lead to any resolution to the problem.

So, I just play and if I get beat by a cheater well if I came in 2nd behind him, I won as far as I'm concerned heh.

I've yet to see evidence of widespread hacking.

lol wut? hahahahhahahah

35 lg. you must be real good

That's the thing, I'm not, but anyone hitting a halfway decent accuracy is called a cheater.

Ray, I don't see people cheating regularly. I just don't. You can laugh that off, but I'm not some knob ranting on the internet about a game i don't play and don't have any direct exposure to any longer. I just play the damn game and if people cheat so be it.

well it has dropped off in the us, i'll agree to that, but last feb-april it was so bad, that i personally saw a hacker every other game, so it was definetely widespread as the euros were saying the same thing. Either way, most cheaters have given up on ql as well by now, because simply put, ther'es no challenge for them lol. There's nothing stopping them these days , eg not impressive anymore like it was last spring when id was at least attempting to curtail the issue.

Thorian here, umm let me first start out by saying that this is halarious... lol! ckz is probably the only one on that list that actually still plays quakelive. I think I have probably played three games in two months in random servers... First, I have never hacked, been accussed but never have hacked. Give me proof of me hacking, that would be funny! It's funny you say you were aliased as well in my mumble. Any quite idiot who doesn't chat doesn't talk to us. You know why? We are always in a private channel :o. Your boy demex channel actually. Tyler has never been caught cheating, honestly I used to think he did, but he's just good. Briansong and ganja were the only ones that had ever hacked whom joined my mumble server... They got banned because no one could fucking stand them anymore. You also forgot to mention that everkill, your other boy, sean1x and rapha sometimes stop by. They must hack too since my server is a hacker's paradise.

nobody cares if you cheat or not, especially id.

Rofl, I was aliasing under rapha half the time I went onto thorian's Mumble.

i always knew you were rapha in disguise. Do you give lessons?

I couldn't, because that would be tier slumming.

true enough

Fudge was one of the shittiest players that ever played quakelive... it's funny... considering superjake sponsored thorian to go to qcon lmfao... and the real rapha actually used to go in that mumble.. so i'm not sure if you're trolling or not... he's a good friend of mine... and it's really sad he got parkinsons... he'd be destroying you tier 0 shitties in every game you played.

ckz uses wallhack and bots. I have a demo of him shooting through 2 walls at an afk player. he just blatently locked onto the guy...who he couldnt see or hear.

upload on youtube w/ techno beats?

ganja cheated? That kid is/was fucking terrible with cheats.

no one on that list is good enough to even warrant hack accusations besides maybe tyler, but he's never seemed like he hacks to me. not that these guys are bad players by any means but from all the times i've played any of them i haven't seen anything really obvious or very suspicious.

no one on that list is good enough to even warrant hack accusations besides maybe tyler

are you serious? briansong, vault, and ganja all admitted to using qlhook. the others are just guilty by association imo.

.

so what were you doing in the mumble server with them? rofl nice one, you just confirmed that your nothing but shit just like the rest of them

.

cha1n stop calling people kids. you're like 16

from all the times i've played them i haven't seen anything. i have heard they have admitted to using cheats which wouldn't surprise me given the attitude of many of these players, but when i've played them i haven't seen any hacks. however, i haven't been an active quake player in like 3 years, so it's entirely possible they could be hackers at other times. all i'm saying is when i've played with them, i haven't seen them hack

you can beat instin rail vs rail?

where is instin mentioned in this thread? i don't think i could consistently beat him now a days, i've played with him for many years. i might be able to keep up with him if i'm having a good day. but i don't see why you brought him up, he's not being accused (at least in this particular thread), and i personally don't think he cheats

comment #1...... O.o

that comment doesn't say that every single person is definitely a cheater, just a list of people who have connected to that mumble server...i'd say it's kind of ridiculous to accuse every single person who connects to a certain mumble server of cheating

Guilty by association. People with the same values/goals/interests usually band together. Why would a non cheater hang out with a bunch of cheaters. Use some common sense dude...

you have some distorted views on life my friend

Sure i do. Would you be friends with 6 other people you knew were cheating? If so why?

Herr approved that comment. And I'm nuking it.

Blame him, not me.

That one is nuked as well... And welcome on Probation.

what..why am i on probation now? this makes absolutely no sense.

and for how long is probation?

now you know how it feels to be on the other side of the foot? eh? I hope you learn a lesson about being nice to people.

Since I cant send PMs id like to know what Ive been put on probation for when there are users that write way worse offensive shit than I do practically everyday on this site and are able to seemingly go under the admin's radar.

Feel free to report these users.

sure, since it looks like you guys are trying to be nazis like the QL forum mods ill just post a few examples of the hypocrisy that should be addressed here.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181875#pid2181875 <-- oceanofapathy calling someone stupid as hell
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181712#pid2181712 <-- EmSixTeen calling someone a prick.
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181713#pid2181713 <-- user obi calling someone a hopeless noob who doesnt have balls or brains.
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181216#pid2181216 <-- user kaetor calling this place the most "retarded" forum in the world.
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2180205#pid2180205 <-- user mkeiy calling someone a "tard"
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181960#pid2181960 <-- user matuka calling someone an "idiot"
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2181974#pid2181974 <-- user faerie calling someone an "idiot"


there are lit. thousands of other examples i can easily find. im put on probation for calling an anon an idiot, yet all of these users get the pass? and here i thought the staff here actually knew how to run a forum correctly. turns out you guys are no different than the power freaks over at QL forums. Hypocrites.

GET OWNED~!

celestial aka jamalz that you?

That's pretty hypocritical, considering ownz0r and gLocK are both black.

Troll attempt or not, the irony is that dutra posted it. Find the hack pact for 8X aka Speechless because most of them cheat, if not all.

shh terra CTF shitty. tier1 players such as yourself think everyone cheats.

shh insta CTF shity. tier1 players such as yourself think everyone cheats. me > you

rofl what?? i just said that.. :9

anyway, maybe if u get the fuck out of distant screams ull learn how to play real quake.

Fail troll fails. You've lost every duel against me. Go back to .16 instanewb. Your hacks might actually help you there.

pics?? you've never beaten me in any game before. the fact that you play terraCTF means you probably cant even shoot over 20acc so stop dreaming.

Fail troll fails. You've lost every duel against me. Go back to .16 instanewb. Your hacks might actually help you there.

pics or it didnt happen baddie.

Fail troll fails. You've lost every duel against me. Go back to .16 instanewb. Your hacks might actually help you there.

Find the hack pact for 8X aka Speechless because most of them cheat

lol not suprising. Soon we'll hear everyone in feed cheats too... oh wait....

I just want to point out that I was in the server when Brian was banned lol

He asked Sync "What happens if i called you a n*" and Sync just banned him lol

First of all, you have NEVER played games with this guy? You guys are friends on your new account, and PROOF below you have played games with him:

[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/zjcdw5.jpg[/IMG]

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/friends/artud
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/Napalm3D_

just in case that img post doesn't work here is the link via tinypic:

http://i43.tinypic.com/zjcdw5.jpg

learn2reply

integrate formatting toolbar foo'

make me a sammich

I'd make them daily if it meant we get a formatting toolbar.

but I don't code esr

then no sammich.

with chips too.

I like the advertisement. :P

just because i joined in the middle of ONE pubCA game that was almost over means i hang out with him now?

Edit: Were you even in the game? LOl he talked shit, cried, and left right after. and im pretty sure that's the last i've seen from him since then.

I completely rape that kid daily. it's ok

There are no chrats in quakelive its only a myth ..... (c) firi1

yakumo? why on anonymous?

Fucking typos ,
*cheats

reigstr os y acn edti

lol $ vault69

sigh, been saying this for a long time. i've mostly gone back to QW because the premium scene is atrocious with cheaters that remain unbanned.

don't think chain cheats because i whupped him(im not good), or at least he wasnt toggling then, but some NOML and most of the people on that list are botters

QL = eyes wide shut

edit: please stop saying krailed cheats. the guy has downs or something, you're like feeding him the lifeblood which sustains him when you do that. rofl.

hahaha ^ this guy z4t01 is hilarious and false.

hahaha inoright!

Annie doesn't deserve to be used by you.

Annie blows.

Stun + pedobear + fireballs = win.

You forgot the large mushroom + cape

brand is king of fire :>

Annie's Q enables her to farm extremely early in the game (refunds mana + 4 second cooldown) , her W can be used to kill entire hordes of monsters, her E can protect her from almost anything (50 armor and magic resistance is no joke), and her pedobear Tibbers can sexually assault anything.

Plus her passive allows for every sixth spell to be a stun, and her autoattacks have insanely long range.

tl;dr
6 year old girl with pedobear vs half-naked man with matches.
Annie > Brand, sorry.

Brand will always outzone Annie in a lane, plus Brands farm is just as good. Her ult is borderline useless compared to Brands too. Yes his stun needs to work in combination, but good players can do it well anyways. Actually her stun is a lot better :(

Laning, Brand > Annie
Team Fights, Brand > Annie

Tibbers is cute though :>

Brand needs combos in order to be effective, whereas Annie can just stun + Tibbers.
Brand also runs into mana problems early game, whereas Annie can basically spend an entire game casting spells and not waste any mana.
Plus Annie's Q will always hit.
AND TIBBERS.

Annie blows, let it go

Makes sense.. considering she is usually the first AP caster next to ryze that gets banned at pro elo's.

Let it go bro

This.

.

(Innate): After every 5 spell casts, Annie's next offensive spell will stun its target for 1.75 seconds.

Which means every SIXTH spell.
Rofl.

Where did anyone accuse me of cheating? Thats never happened. You must have "read" my post with your amazing "reading comprehension" and some how invented a bizarro krailed post whos words are the inverse meaning of the original. If I have downs you must have had your downs long enough to hit the bottom. I'm glad you know me and I don't know you. It means I shit on you.

Hacker

Hacker

Hacker

hacker

[-]

man.... this not even popcorn worthy :(

I am european and what is this?

It exposed how low is us community. Seriusly dudes go back on ql forum:@

ppl will hack as long as ID allows them to hack...

Drama detected

Alli i see is....
cha1n exposed:
[16:17] <superjake> cha1n was banned for a while
[16:18] <great> was he always in the mumble talking about qlhook and stuff?
[16:18] <great> lol.
[16:18] <great> how does he know about the mumble
[16:18] <superjake> everyone told about that mumble has or does hack
[16:18] <great> ic


cha1n....a......hacker.......
REALLY? LOL

i thought chain was just a little asian kid, bricktop?

people still play this game?

just a few diehards

you made a good decision by discontinuing.

I find this whole thread to be a waste of my time, again and again i see crying and bitching but no real proof! Demo's are proof, in a court room you are innocent until proven guilty in QL you are guilty beyond any reasonable doubt before the cuffs go around your wrists. Hackers in QL? 100% acurate, a conspricy to have hackers in one server possible. All the above BUSH@T priceless!

_Viles posting is a bigger joke, all i see are people with way too much time on there hands, Hacking did not kill or will kill QL, bad adminstration coupled with a force fed PAY TO PLAY attitude is killing and will kill the game.

Flame away!

bad adminstration coupled with a force fed PAY TO PLAY attitude is killing and will kill the game

Are you referring to syncerror's policies? Also make an account so we can + you.

We'll hacking may not be the direct cause of what's killing ql but it sure isn't helping it either. Well I don't agree with all of viles list there's something to be said about 70% of the people listed have been banned and many of the others are highly suspect.

There has been hacker "cliques" before in q3 ra3 so I'm sure there are some in ql but to say these guys are in one just because they use the same mumble is lol. If sj was listening to them talk opening about hacks something I doubt they would let some random alias guy listen in on and not have that mumble pass-worded is a bit hard to believe all he had to do is record the convo then post it.

sj word is questionable at best he claims to be a multi-millionaire due to some work settlement and that's how hew was going to be able to afford to send 8? players to qcon and give them each a brand new gaming rig so we're looking at low end about 4-5 grand each to send them to qcon and build them a pc so around 40grand in all on the low end.Guess what? it didn't happen he went afk just before qcon and didn't show his face again for weeks giving bs reasons why. Before he went afk he claimed the pc's were being sent out and in the mail.

durta or w/e he's going by these days is one of these noghosters from q3 1.16n( you know the version with no anti cheat). If you look at the group of players that came from 1.16 to ql it's almost a 50/50 of who has been banned for hacking and who hasn't. He's shady at best. Neither of them should be calling out players for hacking.

tldr;

rofl, you think q3 1.32 was so much better at detecting cheats than 1.16? punkbuster is shit and always has been. micron, and so many others in the past have proven how easy it is to get around it if you know what you're doing. it stopped public cheats sure, but so did the anti-cheat on 1.16. the determined hackers who knew what they were doing always knew ways around them. and lool its completely false to say that im from noghost 1.16. if anything, say osp 1.16 or 1.32, that would be slightly more accurate.

and q3 1.16 actually did have an anti-cheat that served a similar role as punkbuster for the noghost community. it was regularly updated and detected a good number of the public hacks that were in use. wtf are you talking about son?

try not to be derogatory like in "wtf are you talking about son?", and your post will be more likely to be approved

this topic normally doens't concern me, mainly because i hardly ever feel the need to use profantiy to get my point across but are you really censoring the word wtf? No fense but don't you think that's taking it a bit too far? I've never heard of a forum where the word wtf is censored, seriously....

although, in abundance, when jamalz uses the word it can definetely sound condescending i suppose and i'm guessing the reason for the censure. n/m carry on :)

p.s; i really do think he quit esr though

do you know what 'derogatory' means? does it have anything to do with profanity? in the actual quote I used, which part do you think is 'derogatory'?

wtf are you talking about son?

Yes it was night a day as far as a working anti-cheat goes in q3 .32 before and after ogc and how many players have been caught and not too much how many players would have cheated if it were not for pb. Say what you want about pb but it worked it had it problems but many of the players in ql wish they had a working pb in place now.

The noghost anti-cheat wasn't much of an anti-cheat and more of a joke then anything. It's why you played 1.16n over playing 1.32 you could easily get around it. I still say look at all the 1.16ers players and how many of them have been banned in ql already without an anti-cheat. Most of the 1.16ers played that version because they were caught at some time and banned from ,32 and didn't want to go buy another CD key only to get banned again.

Yes it was night a day as far as a working anti-cheat goes in q3 .32 before and after ogc and how many players have been caught and not too much how many players would have cheated if it were not for pb. Say what you want about pb but it worked it had it problems but many of the players in ql wish they had a working pb in place now.

PB worked for keeping known public hacks such as OGC/QLHook from being used but that's about all it was good for.

And yeah I agree that PB is better than nothing cuz it looks like this single infamous QLHook hack is pretty much destroying the QL community. atleast in Q3 we didnt have this problem in 1.32 or in 1.16.

The noghost anti-cheat wasn't much of an anti-cheat and more of a joke then anything.

it actually worked quite well at detecting a few known public cheats, probably as good as PB and didnt lag you by running background processes.

i dont know if you're familiar with Maverick? he developed the noghost mod as well as the anti-cheat that it uses. I think he runs QL mapping contests or something these days? but yeah, you can ask him and he'll inform you on how many players hes busted on the servers that he ran in the past years when noghost 1.16 was active.

It's why you played 1.16n over playing 1.32 you could easily get around it. I still say look at all the 1.16ers players and how many of them have been banned in ql already without an anti-cheat. Most of the 1.16ers played that version because they were caught at some time and banned from ,32 and didn't want to go buy another CD key only to get banned again.

hmm, dont know what 1.16 players you're referring to that have been caught or banned in 1.32 / QL for cheating, but i still have my cdkey saved on my comp that i used several years ago. its not banned from any 1.32 servers and never has been.

as im sure you're aware, the Q3 community has always had a fragmented playerbase due to the number of mods / pointreleases. i never played 1.16 to evade punkbuster if that's what you're saying? infact, i played both 1.32 and 1.16, probably 1.32 more so than 1.16. i liked variety, and some point releases had no servers available in my area for certain mods so yeah, i would play 1.16 for noghost, and 1.32 for RA3/OSP.

I knew mav from way back in the day and the reason he created noghost was for his server rental business. His anti-cheat didn't work well at all. You got banned in RA3, iCTF and iFT. PB worked well stopped a lot of hacks and was updated regularly ask your bud naplam.

You got banned in RA3, iCTF and iFT.

lol where are you getting this from? i never played iFT, nice try though. ive never been banned in RA3 or iCTF either. played both mods for years. cant wait to see the proof you have on me getting banned from anything sir.

PB worked well stopped a lot of hacks and was updated regularly

wow, can you read? i never said it didnt work well against KNOWN/PUBLIC hacks. i just said it was useless against privately distributed hacks. (ie: the hacks that people are willing to pay a price for to remain undetected). the noghost anticheat basically worked the same way as punkbuster. both of them had their flaws which were easily exploited by hackers looking to make a quick buck off of the shitties who cant play without cheats.

i dont know if you were around, but back when QL had punkbuster, hackers who were looking to profit off of noobs were developing private hacks for QL as early as private beta. now that punkbuster is gone, there's no need for noobs who want to cheat to pay for hacks anymore because they can easily download QLHook for free with little to no costs/risks.

ask your bud naplam.

how is napalm3d my buddy? i've never played a single game with napalm3d. because we happened to be in the same random QLCA pub server doesn't make us buddies.

lol? are you seriously linking to a demo of a QL FFA game that tyryl uploaded on youtube as your "proof"?

first off, what does that demo prove? you said i got banned in Q3 RA3, iCTF, and iFT so this proves none of the shit you said about me in your previous posts. =\

second, tyryl is shitty and lit. thinks everyone who can beat him cheats so his opinion is irrelevant. seriously, this guy thinks everyone who doesnt play duel competitively cheats, and is probably the whiniest guy ive ever met in QL. he makes up tons of excuses when he loses, and often rages after getting his ass handed to him a few times. if you look at the demo, you can see im wearing the SJ tag. now, lets be clear, he only made that demo cuz he was mad that i raped him countless times in CA, and somehow got in superjake's SJ team even though i wasnt officially sponsored. he then left the team shortly after rofl.

regarding the demo: it was in an FFA with tier1-2 players where basically everyone in that game was terrible. im not even an FFA player nor a dueler, so anyone who actually plays FFA or duel as their main mod and is good at it probably has a great chance at beating me easily in it.

also, its not hard for someone to make a demo of ANYONE in an FFA game that's filled with absolutely terrible players and turn on r_shownormals, and upload it to youtube and call that player a cheater. anyone can be made to look like a cheat tbh. nothing in that demo is conclusive at all, and the fact that i've never been banned from QL for hacking further proves what a joke that demo is, rofl.

I agree that most shownormals vids are ambiguous. Most people do things that could look suspicious with shownormals every game. However, @ 0:07 you consciously adjust your aim to aim at a guy who is far away behind a pillar who you couldn't have possibly heard. It looks obvious... to say the least. Explain?

well you cant see shit in that video. piss poor quality tbh. and on my screen i probably saw a part of his model before i aimed at him. he shouldve uploaded a better version of the whole damn game without r_shownormals so we can clearly see what the fuck is going on. maybe i heard him? maybe i was just spamming my rocket before the quad run was over hoping to get lucky and hit something? how should i know? who fucking cares? its an FFA filled with scrubs. chances are i probably wasnt even paying attention. i dont need to wallhack in an FFA filled with first time quake players. what a joke lol nt though.

Yes, you do need to hack in a game filled with newbs. You're trash.

and often rages after getting his ass handed to him a few times

you should see platiunum3x if he gets fragged 3 times in a row. He ragequits right away.

this is what happened after dutra lost a tournament to us:

-
[22:06] abby: what did you guys do to dut?!!
01[22:06] <@sotrix> we raped him off quakelive
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:04 PM [email protected] abby yo
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:12 PM abby [email protected] hiii
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:38 PM [email protected] abby just lettin u kno i quit quake so im not going to be on this anymore
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:44 PM [email protected] abby uninstalling now
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:46 PM [email protected] abby pz
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:51:55 PM abby [email protected] ;O
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:52:00 PM abby [email protected] why cant you still come on msn
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:52:10 PM [email protected] abby no point
[22:07] abby: 3/3/2010 7:52:13 PM [email protected] abby i quit
[22:07] abby: he sent me a going away msg
02[22:07] * Stratos- ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: 13mIRC 4Power 8Pack15 8.0.0 (12http://mIRCPowerPack.net15) by 14sod4/15sgt-d ([email protected]15))
01[22:07] <@sotrix> ahahahha
01[22:07] <@sotrix> i told you
01[22:07] <@sotrix> we raped him off quake live
[22:07] abby: happens
01[22:08] <@sotrix> yeup
01[22:09] <@sotrix> ahareally
01[22:09] <@sotrix> i just cant believe it
01[22:10] <@sotrix> motherfucker cant take losing
[22:10] abby: yeah
01[22:10] <@sotrix> must be because he hacks
[22:10] abby: hell be back
[22:10] abby: im sure
[22:10] abby: just needs to cool off

Looks like a ragequit to me. As far as the video I didn't record or it upload it. There's no way you heard him as you looked right at him through the pillar and fired. Either it was just one hell of a coincidence or you were botting from hearing others talk about you and seeing you play I think it's the latter. You are just another trash 1.16er that's only in ql because there's no anti-cheat to stop you from hacking.

if u watch the demo u can see i prolly saw the guy when i jumped before i even aim at him. nt though

While i agree with you in regards to hacking clans/clicques. i've seen a few (sav1or,clan eq) , i see a far greater number of stackers in ql, especially in ctf. Hear me out for a second because i know the word stacker is used loosely in conjunction with tierslummer, but it is in many respects, a special art form completely devoid of reason; Case in point: Everybodypoops.

For example on U.S CTF Servers, the following people can be found stacking 24/7.

R3zurrector
Weirdwolf/Sabertooth
Everybodypoops
Candyass
Incubus
Bacon_cupcakes
Avenged
Kujoe
Chern/Chernobyl
Ketnar
Av8r'
Lollercopter
Morterfork3r

to name a few.

They are in a clicque of sorts and ofcourse play ont he same team whenever they join games together.

That is far more common than cheating cliques who tend to congregate in private on irc and only show up at certain times of the day in planned attacks while the latter (my example) group do it all the time, in turn doing far more damage to the new playerbase than cheaters.

Bottom line, nothing can be done about either problem, since syncerror homself doesn't believe in fairness by his own account, and believes the better team should win regardless of conditions. Therefore, he most likely also believes a cheater with advanced tools to give himself/herself an advantage has every right to take out his competition as he deems fit, especially since he "can" (meaning, if he can get past anti-cheat and it goes undetected).

Overall the problems in ql are mutlifold, but for me, the problem that i have seen completely decimate the playerbase in one specific mode, CTF, is far more agregious than the damage a few cheaters a night do to a few noobs in clan arena/ffa (usually) as those gametypes are still thriving.

Sigh, even when i get the urge to return to quake live, it only takes a couple games for me to hang it back up. Feel free to check my other account herco1 to see what happens in typical ctf games. It's just pathetic.

You mention in this post that the above users:

"are in a clicque of sorts and ofcourse play ont he same team whenever they join games together"

I've noticed that some of these users play fairly frequently and as you've indicated in many of your posts that the CTF player base has been reduced significantly. Wouldn't logic dictate that if the player base was small and these players played for several hours a day that at some point they'd en up on the same team whether intentionally or not?

Also a number of the players you've listed as playing on the same team that have played for a while and seem to be somewhat decent namely:

Avenged
Kujoe
Chern/Chernobyl
Ketnar

In going through their history I have yet to see where these players have played on the same team at least in the past few months (based on their history). Yes of course I see a number of blowout games (8-0, 8-1 etc..) but I've seen this happen even when people start matches that have been shuffled a number of times.

I've also seen higher level tier 4 players join an empty server and since there aren't many CTF games available some of the lower tier players will join as it's one of the only games available. Players will shuffle to try to balance the teams and then some of the lower tiers will quit as they've discovered that they can't yet compete at the higher level or just become frustrated.

Depending on the score and how much time is left (as nobody is going to switch when it's 4-0 with 5 minutes left) players may switch to the team that are down a player or two if they believe there is any chance of a comeback. Then another higher tier player joins and since the autojoin favors the team that is down now you have multiple higher tier players on a team as a result of the people who quit in which teams are unbalanced again.

It is extremely difficult to balance games in public servers given that some people have played Q3A/Quake Live for 9+ years while others are just starting out.

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong in that I have seen people just sit and spectate and join with 1 minute left for a win or wait until a new player quits to join the winning team but that isn't the case for all the people you've listed here.

I've noticed that some of these users play fairly frequently and as you've indicated in many of your posts that the CTF player base has been reduced significantly. Wouldn't logic dictate that if the player base was small and these players played for several hours a day that at some point they'd en up on the same team whether intentionally or not?

no because on the other end of the spectrum are players like mevil who don't care if they lose, so they let themselves get raped. Then there's a 3rd group like bimnutz, myself etc who rage against the machine and try to even out the teams pre-game, during game, and after the game, to no avail, because the first group (the list above) can easily stack the game back in their favor in any number of ways:

1. quitting, then rejoining
2. switching at last second before game starts
3. teamkilling causes his own team to leave
4. waiting in spec till the stacked team is down a player
5. joining blue at start of game ensuring a 5v4 advantage at some point
6. etc etc etc etc etc

In going through their history I have yet to see where these players have played on the same team at least in the past few months (based on their history). Yes of course I see a number of blowout games (8-0, 8-1 etc..) but I've seen this happen even when people start matches that have been shuffled a number of times.

the group of players that belong to the stacker club is fairly large. I assure you its' happened and i'll prove that later tonight when i have more time to respond thoroughly. I'm glad you noticed their blowout matches, but take special notice of the frag/death totals of the people on their own team.

It is extremely difficult to balance games in public servers given that some people have played Q3A/Quake Live for 9+ years while others are just starting out.

it is much more balanced in clan arena. CTF not so much.

but that isn't the case for all the people you've listed here.

oh it certainly is. I am 100% sure of that. i've played more hours/days/months than anyone in CTF on u.s servers and have played all of these guys literally hundreds of times. Dont' worry i'll show you what they do soon enough. Stay tuned.

Thanks for a cordial discussion, these are rather fleeting at times on this site.

1. quitting, then rejoining
2. switching at last second before game starts
3. teamkilling causes his own team to leave
4. waiting in spec till the stacked team is down a player
5. joining blue at start of game ensuring a 5v4 advantage at some point

I certainly won't deny that this could easily unbalance teams; however in briefly looking at some of the statistics it appears as if:

Avenged
Kujoe
Chern/Chernobyl
Ketnar

All have at least 90% completion rates as far as CTF. Many of which have played several thousand games in total with less than 150 quits. So if they were quitting and rejoining I'd expect to see a much higher percentage.

As far as switching before the game starts doesn't it take a majority of the team to readyup prior to the game starting? That seems easy enough to fix by kicking any spectators and locking the teams before the game starts. I don't see many switches in game for these people. So yes that can happen at the start but it's somewhat under the control of the people that readyup. If you don't readyup before teams are locked and shuffled people shouldn't be able to do this. If someone quits and then a person switches teams I'd say blame the person who quits just as much as the person who switched.

To be honest I have seen people autojoin games and even though teams were unbalanced and have not been shuffled (not that it always works) they ready up and start the game. People should not readyup with uneven teams, teams being unlocked. Unfortunately they do and that can lead to this issue as well.

Really if people are frustrated with team balancing they do have the option to pay and start their own servers and kick whomever they want to either before a match or during.

I think there may be a slight misconception here in that people who have been playing a long time who are good can, have and always will unbalance a game what may appear at the start to be a balanced game. Yes people do it intentionally but from what I'm seeing in the history these people are not. For the most part they join a game and play it through to completion.

There's certainly also a case to be made for people who do not shuffle; however if you're playing an 8 player game and one or two people who are stacking do not participate or vote no, provided everyone else votes yes it will happen. If they still end up on the same team I say hate the game not the players. It sometimes appears you are venting at the players and I'm not sure all the players you have listed are participating. Again I agree with some you listed but not others.

All have at least 90% completion rates as far as CTF. Many of which have played several thousand games in total with less than 150 quits. So if they were quitting and rejoining I'd expect to see a much higher percentage

both chern and weirdwolf will sit in spec till they seize the opportunity to join. ketnar is admittedly one of the few i've played with so i'm going to let bimnutz answer to that one. Avenged only switches if he wants to fuck with someone.

Really if people are frustrated with team balancing they do have the option to pay and start their own servers and kick whomever they want to either before a match or during.

sync that you? come on.... that doesn't solve the public option... and i already explained why the majority of pub players won't ever subscribe.

As far as switching before the game starts doesn't it take a majority of the team to readyup prior to the game starting?

? i think you missed my point. Even if teams are balanced, via a sucessful shuffle, as the timeclock counts down, with 2 seconds left, anyobody can switch to the stacked team. There's nothing stopping that from happening in CTF.

That seems easy enough to fix by kicking any spectators and locking the teams before the game starts

good luck kicking 4-5 spectators in a game. And even if they get kicked, they can rejoin without any issues. Perhaps if a temporary ban was put in place .... Also, most specs will join and then keep shuffling till they get the teams they like. Do you play CTF? have you seen what actually takes place?

I don't see many switches in game for these people.

most of the people on the list don't like switching teams, getting quits, other than candyass, everybodypoops and bacon_cupcakes who are more trolls than stackers, but do both.

[ If you don't readyup before teams are locked and shuffled people shouldn't be able to do this

games don't start then. usually only noobs ready up before teams are even shuffled, etc. The stackers only ready up when they know the have the dominant team. Teams are hardly locked because most people don't know the command.

If someone quits and then a person switches teams I'd say blame the person who quits just as much as the person who switched

that's normally what happens. The person who quits gets called a whiner and gets told "take the loss like a man, etc". The blame should instead be placed on the stacker/bully. But you have to understand the mentality of these players. They like to gang up on new players and harass / manipulate the game till they get their way and can exact the kind of pwnage they like.

I think there may be a slight misconception here in that people who have been playing a long time who are good can, have and always will unbalance a game what may appear at the start to be a balanced game.

There's no misconception here. On a somewhat even team, games will end much closer instead of the 8-0 blowouts you yourself saw.

Yes people do it intentionally but

what you mean but? but what? but it's ok? Why not do what has been done in clan arena. Some sort of autobalance at start. You also negate the fact that blue gets the extra person in an even game every single time, creating an automatic stack. Perhaps if that was random ...

from what I'm seeing in the history these people are not

everyone on that list stacks/slums/etc . It's not even a debate if you're an american player. Eveyrone knows it. Just go into a server and see for yourself, they do it every game.

There's certainly also a case to be made for people who do not shuffle; however if you're playing an 8 player game and one or two people who are stacking do not participate or vote no, provided everyone else votes yes it will happen.

Everyone negates shuffle at times, its' not specific to any one particular player (noob or stacker),. Most noobs dont' bother shuffling in CTF games on us servers for the mere reason that, if teams are not stacked, the stackers will simply shuffle again, or switch teams, etc etc etc... bottom line, it doesn't matter what the teams look like at start, stackers will find a way.

If they still end up on the same team I say hate the game not the players.

CTF IS BROKEN. its' that simple. These issues don't happen in any other gametype. Go look at incubus or lollercopter's records. If you have premium you can look back to the days when he was playing more often. One blowout after another on public servers.

It sometimes appears you are venting at the players and I'm not sure all the players you have listed are participating. Again I agree with some you listed but not others.

i named those people for a reason. please humor me by telling me who doesn't stack on that list. I didn't just make it up.Look at my own profile, you can certainly see i've played long enough to know who they are and how they play. Moreover, the US CTF community is so small that everyone knows each other. There are hardly ever surprises when entering a game and the same people play at the same times of the day.

Seriously though, this isn't even a debate, i only listed the most obvious players. Go watch how they act/play in games. Those guys are the worst of the worst on US CTF servers, bar none.

I will provde all the evidence you need in the week to come starting tonight.

"both chern and weirdwolf will sit in spec till they seize the opportunity to join. ketnar is admittedly one of the few i've played with so i'm going to let bimnutz answer to that one. Avenged only switches if he wants to fuck with someone."

I'll ignore weirdwolf as he wasn't one of the people I had called out in my previous responses. So I look at some of chernobyl's matches and his record between Nov 12th and 18th is 32 games with 14 wins. If he is stacking and switching teams to win he doesn't appear to be doing a great job of it. Looking at his first match he was in a majority of the time and he switched to the losing team. The CTF games that he played based on the match results seem to indicate he was in the entire time whether it was a blowout or a loss. So again I'm a bit challenged as to why you've indicated that the people I've mentioned are purposely stacking in an attempt to accumulate wins and drive away other players. Afterall if the community dies and there aren't any players they can't play the game they've spent weeks/months of their life playing.


"sync that you? come on.... that doesn't solve the public option... and i already explained why the majority of pub players won't ever subscribe."

If you are learning to skate and you jump on the ice with an open practice in which experienced players are allowed to play and you dislike it you have an option to rent the rink and only allow people on it who you want to play. This has nothing to do with the game you can apply this concept to anything. If you choose not to pay to rent the rink privately you have to accept that it's open/public and anyone can come and go as they please. If a pro team shows up and they choose to be on the same team then there's nothing you can do about it. Sure it isn't fair as it's a community center and they should use their own venue but they certainly don't have to.

How about open race night at the track? You can certainly bring your station wagon and put it up against the corvette but you'd be better off renting the track on an off night and making it a station wagon only night. If you don't want to pay that's your choice but then you have to deal with the limited restrictions you can apply to a public server.

"i think you missed my point. Even if teams are balanced, via a sucessful shuffle, as the timeclock counts down, with 2 seconds left, anyobody can switch to the stacked team. There's nothing stopping that from happening in CTF."

If the teamsize is locked and people only readup when the teams are even (at least in number) you won't be able to switch over to the stacked team. I'm not saying this doesn't happen and I get your point but you can again apply this to anything. How do you think NFL games would go if there weren't rules regarding how many people could be on the field prior to starting or for that matter during the game. Since we can't apply the same rules as there aren't referees we have to leverage the tools we have (albeit limited) to try and balance the teams and that would be locking and only readying up when teams are even.

"good luck kicking 4-5 spectators in a game. And even if they get kicked, they can rejoin without any issues. Perhaps if a temporary ban was put in place .... Also, most specs will join and then keep shuffling till they get the teams they like. Do you play CTF? have you seen what actually takes place?"

Again spectators can't participate in a vote so the people in the game are able to control this. Set the teamsize and lock it up. Spectators can leave/rejoin at will but it won't make a difference unless someone quits. If people quit the slots will open and then they can join at will but I'd blame the quitters more than the spectators. Maybe they were waiting for an open slot.. if someone quits and it's 4-0 maybe they just wanted to get a game in since there aren't that many available. Now if they do this constantly I agree with you they are just trying to pad their stats but from the people that I had listed (a subset of your original list) I'm not seeing this.


"most of the people on the list don't like switching teams, getting quits, other than candyass, everybodypoops and bacon_cupcakes who are more trolls than stackers, but do both."

I agree with this but these weren't the people that I indicated on my reply.


"games don't start then. usually only noobs ready up before teams are even shuffled, etc. The stackers only ready up when they know the have the dominant team. Teams are hardly locked because most people don't know the command. "

If the noobs are the ones readying up prior to the shuffle then aren't they at fault for the stacking as opposed to the people I was referring to? I mean if a person joins a team and it's stacked as a result of that and there is no time to shuffle why are they being called out? I would call out the newer people who caused the match to be unbalanced.

I have to reiterate I do understand this all happens but my point is there are ways to control this whether it be locking teams and only starting after a shuffle, paying and starting your own server or not readying up until teams are even. I also have to say that this appears to be a 2 way street. As some of these players end up getting becoming a victim of unbalanced team as they are ranked higher. Sometimes as a result of a shuffle they end up with players that have 10%-15% accuracy and are fighting for their life against several 25%-35% users. So I'm sure they could complain as well but I'd argue the same points to them. If they only want higher tier players and are looking for balanced games then they have the same options I've referenced above.

Actually to be honest based on some of your previous posts you seem to indicate that the best thing that could happen to QuakeLive would be to see it's demise as they have ignored the community. So I'm a bit confused that you are calling out people that, based on your opinion, are driving new players away from the game. I'd think these people would be heroes in your eyes as if they are stacking and frustrating people to the point where they won't play anymore then this will certainly support the games demise.

My take on it is that these people have played for so long that they'd love to see this game continue and they want nothing more than the player base to expand; otherwise they are wasting their time. They also would prefer to play competitive games as opposed to blowouts as it will not make them better players. A pro NBA player could play intramural but after a few years they might have a good record but they'd lose their edge and probably wouldn't even be able to resume their career.

"that's normally what happens. The person who quits gets called a whiner and gets told "take the loss like a man, etc". The blame should instead be placed on the stacker/bully. But you have to understand the mentality of these players. They like to gang up on new players and harass / manipulate the game till they get their way and can exact the kind of pwnage they like."

I believe this goes both ways. If there are a number of people who play somewhat regularly and a veteran player happens to join the veteran player gets bullied just as much don't they? They are called stackers, losers, told they have no life, sworn at, threatened. So I'd say that this "stacking/bullying" goes both ways.

"There's no misconception here. On a somewhat even team, games will end much closer instead of the 8-0 blowouts you yourself saw."

I agree with this as upsets are very rare in any game/sport. My point is as you've mentioned the player base has decreased significantly since the beta. So that doesn't leave much middle ground as far as the skillset as most of those people have left the game. So you're left with highly skilled players and some newer players. If a player with a higher skill level joins an empty server and it's at 100 and a newer player joins that can easily reduce the skill level into the 60's-70's resulting in other new players joining. So what may initially appear to be a balanced game all of a sudden is unbalanced by 1 highly skilled player. This isn't stacking as there aren't any other skilled players that are on their team. This also isn't slumming as they were the first ones to join the server. While these matches can easily result in an 8-0 result I don't see it as slumming or stacking. The fact is if you look at the game summary and a person has been in the entire time with an 8-0 result. It doesn't necessarily mean that they purposely attempted to stack/slum. In fact you might argue the opposite as newer people joined a game that was most likely displayed as more challenging.

"Everyone negates shuffle at times, its' not specific to any one particular player (noob or stacker),. Most noobs dont' bother shuffling in CTF games on us servers for the mere reason that, if teams are not stacked, the stackers will simply shuffle again, or switch teams, etc etc etc... bottom line, it doesn't matter what the teams look like at start, stackers will find a way."

It takes a majority to make a vote successful doesn't it? So if you have a server full of new players and people don't vote or for that matter call a shuffle you're saying it's the minorities fault? If you have 6 new players and 2 veterans I'd think that if a shuffle wasn't called it would be the newer players that should be blamed for the teams being unbalanced. Sure the 2 players can try to shuffle again or not readyup but if everyone else votes then they will override the minority. Now if it's the opposite scenario where there are more veterans than new players then perhaps the newer players shouldn't be on that server or have the option to leave. Just as a higher tiered player shouldn't be on a lower tiered server. Basically as with all voting the majority rules. If you don't vote or are in the minority you can certainly speak your piece but in the end the majority rules. If you're looking for a dictatorship and want to have everything your way then you spend some money and set things up your way.

"Go look at incubus or lollercopter's records. If you have premium you can look back to the days when he was playing more often. One blowout after another on public servers."

I have and again these weren't the people that I was challenging. I agree with some people you've mentioned on that list as I did check some of their match history. It was the people that I listed (a subset of yours) that I didn't see a strong correlation between their match history and your accusations of "stacking 24/7" and being a "clicque of sorts and ofcourse play ont he same team whenever they join games together". Also if you have people that are stacking for stats and they see a strong player they may spectate and wait until they are able to join that players team. Let's take an example if Everybodypoops is spectating a game that Avenged is playing and his team is now up 5-1. A player from his team leaves and Everybodypoops joins to get the win. I wouldn't blame Avenged for continuing to play. I also wouldn't say that he is waiting for Everybodypoops to join. Also what if for some reason there were a few shuffles and they started out on the same team as a result of a shuffle fail (which can certainly happen). Some of the records of people are obvious but for a few others on that list I don't believe it's justified. Yes they may win more frequently and it may include blowouts but it doesn't mean they are stacking 24/7 and purposely play at the same time. Many people have similar schedules as a result of their jobs. Some people can play for hours on end while others can only get in a game or two in a limited window of opportunity.


"most of the people on the list don't like switching teams, getting quits, other than candyass, everybodypoops and bacon_cupcakes who are more trolls than stackers, but do both."

Again I agree with this as these weren't the people I was referring to in my response. I did check the history and feel your statement was justified for these people.

"everyone on that list stacks/slums/etc . It's not even a debate if you're an american player. Eveyrone knows it. Just go into a server and see for yourself, they do it every game."

Actually I agree with part of this. The only real way to verify this is to see it for yourself. Which is why I posted in the first place. You seem to callout a number of people in many of your posts. Some of this is definitely justifiable as it is clear by statistics and match summaries. I mean if you had said something like Kweld quits a lot you can easily take a look at his stats and see he only completes 50% of his matches and has more quits than wins. But in general people I've referenced don't seem to have a record that indicates that they slum/stack/switch teams. So I may take you up on the offer and go into a server and watch some of the players I've mentioned.

"I will provde all the evidence you need in the week to come starting tonight."

I'm not sure that's necessary as I'm able to look through their match history and statistics myself. Anyone could go through and pick out 20-30 matches from a history of thousands. So unless you plan on calling out every match showing exactly how they switched, joined servers together, purposely joined lower tiers then I'm not sure it would provide much value. So for example if you take a player who has had 2000+ matches and you provide all this detail on 40 of their games you're only representing 2% of their total history.

i read part of it, will reply to the rest tomorrow.

Btw: i know you're trying to pretend the issue isn't happening on U.S ctf servers and that those people are all innocent, but anyone who plays with those guys know the truth. With that said, i have more than 30 days worth of evidence on these guys as i've played them for 3 years now. And just like you pinpointed a few games here and there, i'll be much more thorough so you can see exactly what is happening.

"With that said, i have more than 30 days worth of evidence on these guys as i've played them for 3 years now."


As you stated above you've been playing with these guys for years. Based on your profile it shows you joined on March 25th 2009. This is something that I responded to in a previous thread. I see posts that were on your boards almost 6 months later after you are joining that identified many of these players as the best CTF players.

(Lollercopter, Weirdwolf, Avenged, Incubus, Kujoe)
[url=http://imageshack.us/f/651/81201125848pm.png]

(Incubus, Avenged, Kujoe)
[url=http://imageshack.us/f/6/81201130434pm.png]

(Avenged, Incubus, Kujoe)
[url=http://imageshack.us/f/844/81201130519pm.png]

So if you've been playing with these people for years and you obviously logged a significant time playing the game why is it that you would highlight these people who are tier slummers/stackers/destroying the game as some of the best CTF players in the US? This after playing with them for 6 months in which I'm sure both they and you logged a significant amount of time. As I'm sure we could go back to those games and see that there were probably a number of them that yielded results that were no different from current matches. I mean are you telling me that 6 months into this Incubus wasn't exhibiting this behavior and wasn't playing in games that were unbalanced and 8-0? My guess is that we could easily find this yet you hale him as one of the best?

Are these people aware that you are even posting about them on here? If not I'd suggest you at least tell them and give them a fair opportunity to respond to these accusations. The more I'm looking into this the less weight this is holding as you made some very serious accusations about players here.

Lastly when I started playing the Quake series I have to say that I was in the same boat as many of the new people. We're all new at some point right? I was getting destroyed by people who had played for years. I'd jump in a game and I'd be alive for what seemed like less than a second. Was it frustrating? Yes it was. Did I quit? No I stayed in and played the game through and then practiced (a lot) both online and offline. It took some time but eventually I became a better player and could hold my own in a game. The only way to get better is to play better people. Even if you're getting destroyed in an 8-0 game I guarantee you that if you play many of those games and stay in there you'll get better. It's just like practicing in offline mode. Add a ton of Keel bots on nightmare and you'll get railed every few seconds. After doing this for a long time (practicing for hours on end) getting in a game will feel like your playing in slow motion.

You could say the same with other games. Let's take Guitar hero for example. You could certainly just jump into a game and play against someone who's been playing for a while on expert mode and can complete songs with 90+ % accuracy. You'll get destroyed and will never win. So what do people do? They practice as much as they can until they feel they'll be a worthy opponent. Enough practice and next thing you know they come back and beat the original player at 100% accuracy. If they give up or don't practice they'll never win.


As I'm sure you're aware the Quake series has been around for many years. If you're just getting into the game you are at a serious disadvantage. I don't know of any game/sport that you wouldn't be if you attempted to just jump in a game with players who have been playing the game/sport for 10+ years. To my knowledge none of the Quake series supported tiers and it's always been the nature of the beast. Yet they were still successful. Something tells me that it's not the players necessarily causing this game to fail.

So if you've been playing with these people for years and you obviously logged a significant time playing the game why is it that you would highlight these people who are tier slummers/stackers/destroying the game as some of the best CTF players in the US?

Good players can't slum/stack? are you serious?

are you telling me that 6 months into this Incubus wasn't exhibiting this behavior and wasn't playing in games that were unbalanced and 8-0?

Just because i knew he was stacking/slumming doesn't mean he doesn't belogn on a list of the best ctf players in the u.s. I'm brutally honest. Just because i don't like the guy doesnt' mean i'm going to pretend he sucks outright.

edit: something else i want to say on this topic. The first 6 months of my ql gaming career, all i did was play ctf4, so other than lollercopter, av8r and incubus the others i didn't start running into until i started playing with my clanmates. But it's not like i could do anything about loller/incubus/av8r. They were playing 6-8 hours a day like me. And almost every single ctf4 game i joined, they were there as well playing for frags/wins together against me/mevil/sunny25 and a few others who have since quit this game. I was just busy trying to have fun the first 6 months i played. I wasn't paying attention to trends or loopholes to figure out how we were losing all the time. Plus it takes time to know everyone in the community. it was fairly large inthe summer of 2009, so it took time to learn who was who.

If not I'd suggest you at least tell them and give them a fair opportunity to respond to these accusations.

HAHHA now i know yo'ure just trolling. EVERYBODY in the us. ctf community KNOWS THEY STACK/SLUM/ETC ETC.. Get real sync. You act like its' big news lol Furthermore they know i've called them out on it. I've done it a million times. Like bimnutz, vector and a few others i'm not scared to confront these guys in games.

The more I'm looking into this the less weight this is holding as you made some very serious accusations about players here.

check my post on everybodypoops below. I will do the others one day at a time but i'm not wasting my time if you're going to tell me poops isn't one of them.

Ok let's play ball:

Everybodypoops
http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/everybodypoops

_______________

11/18/11

GAME 1

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

another tier 3 game. ann3_fr4nk is an alt.
Prognosis: game starts 2v2. him and ann vs 2 noobs. Never heard of toofy and fred sucks.
-----Result: 8-0
STACKED GAME

_________

GAME 2

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

that is a tier 3 game. joins anne's team again . Blue is winning but a man down. He joins game to "even it".
-----Result: easy win
STACKED GAME

_________

GAME 3

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Anne leaves. enter chernobyl (2nd best player in game). swampy has been stuck in tier 2/3 (*hasn't improved for over 6 months now). Game starts off completely unbalanced. 2 vets vs 3 noobs
-----Result: 8-0
STACKED GAME

_____________________________

11/17/11

GAME 1

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Game starts 3v2 in red's favor. pclizard = alt. edreed joins to even game.pclizard joins red. poops is in spec with swiers at this point waiting for him to join blue. swiersz joins blue, 3 seconds later poops joins red for free win.
-----Result: slow death blowout. 2 guys on blue were 0-41 (each)
TIMELY JOIN + FRAGFEST (game prolonged to up frag score)

GAME 2

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

joins winning team with 41 seconds left for the win
-----Result: win for poops
LAST SECOND WIN FREEBIE

GAME 3

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Total blowout. oh look it's weirdwolf and poops playing together. sing and weirdwolf are in spec. with 5:31 seconds left to go what happens? singh joins red. 4 seconds later weirdwolf joins blue for the free win.
-----Result: free win
TIMELY JOIN FROM SPEC SLOT

11/16/11

GAME 1

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Starts game with fister. nothing more to be said
-----Result: 8-0
STACKED GAME

GAME 2

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Tier 2/3 game. never heard of any of them other than parpaliukas but he's tier 3 at best (only good on ctf4).
-----Result 8-1
TIERSLUM

GAME 3

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Hahah. I pretty much know what happened since pika and bim are in the game. Game starts 3v2 with bacon_cupcakes (on the list) on red. Since noone objected i can tell this is a tier 2 game. This wasn't a serious game based ont he scores. red had the superior team with pika, bacon and obanomics. Blue only had razorsl but he joined late. Poops probably tried to join red but was heckled out of game.
-----Result 8-2
STACKED GAME

GAME 4

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Poops joins with just 3 minutes to go, the rest is uncertain. Insex is the only good player on red. poops had yoda who switched to his team . so 2v1 adv
-----Result: 8-3
UNEVEN TEAMS due to a switch

GAME 5/6 - randomness

__________________

11/15/11

GAME 1

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

ah see someone here i haven't seen for a while (imurhuckleberry). Forgot who that is, but its' an alt that pwns. Oh look bacon_cupcakes is on his team, what are the odds....With 519 and cap making up the rest of his team on blue, red is totally overmatched. Poops obviously hasn't played huckleberry before and joins red thinking he had the better team with 519k. Little does he know that huckelberry rapes cap and 519k switch but still get their asses handed to them by berry. Huckleberry cheats but noone cares.
----Result: 8-0
ALT RUINS THE DAY

GAME 2

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

need i say more?
---Result: 8-0
TOTAL STACKKKKKKKK

GAME 3

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

The score doesn't do justice how bad the stack on blue was this game. this was a prolonged rape. The 2 best players on red went 14-46 and 18-42 respectively while everone on blue had 3x frag/death ratios. Poops is on winning team but once again quits out for the hell of it.
----Result: 8-5
PROLONGED AGONY

GAME 4

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

It's space ctf but the idea here was to play with kamik. Normally this stack would have worked but he's playing against mevil, the all time leading ctf4 wins leader on us severs so was a tough game for sure.
----Result: 6-8 (first loss of the week for him)
BAD IDEA stacking vs mevil on ctf4

GAME 5

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Again, prolonged agony. The scores doesn't do this game justice. poops was on a team with En, blatrix and Kamik. Blue only had wintersorrow (and this was only after winter switched) and an alt (qlrql) i've never heard of. So his 3v1 supposed stack gamble paid off. Also for the 4th time this week playing with weirdwolf. 3rd time on same team. But let's get back to this stack. I have to list this stack out because its' just amazing to me

BLUE

weirdwolf
everybodypoops
wintersorrow
blatrix
En
nicknico
kamikaz3

vs

RED

SNOWBIND
qlqrl (an alt)
tev41 (tier 3 player)
and 3 noobs
Result: 5-3 (dont' let score fool you, this was prolonged agony)
WORST STACK I'VE SEEN , SERIOUSLY. This was a concerted effort to rape the alt.

__________________
11/14/11

GAME 1

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Game starts 3v3. kamik, and trex on red are too much for the 3 noobs i've never heard of on blue. with the game squarely in the hands of blue, With the game 0-0 still, poops joins game to be on the stacked team. then he quits out for some reason (probably heckled out, or sometimes he just quits for no reason blaming his teammates)
----Result: 8-0
STACKKKKKKKKKKKKK

GAME 2

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

KAMIK is on red with poops. nuff said
----Result: 8-0
BAD STACK IS BAD

GAME 3

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Never heard of anyone other than pthy on red. blue has 5 guys + poops i recognize. Another stacked game
-----Result: 8-0
STACKED VETS vs NOOBS

Take special attention to game 1 and 3 on 11/17 to see how both weirdwolf and poops behave. More on the others coming later.

GAME 4

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ev...fd90/ctf/1

Never heard of anyone other than kamik on red. Blue has weirdwolf, devils and nerfarious + poops who quits out again for the hell of it. This is the 3rd time this week poops played with weirdwolf on the same server and 3 out of 4 times on his team
RESULT: 8-2
Stacked game

__________________________

Pay special attention to game 1 and 3 on 11/17 and game 5 on 11/15

__________________________

Without going any further (and i will), just basing games off of poops list already incriminates bacon_cupcakes twice, weirdwolf 3 times out of 4, and chern 1/1.

As you can see, those 3 are stackers.But poops is moreover a troll. He likes pissing people off hence the reason he quits games to piss his teammates off, teamkills, stacks to piss off oposing players, slums to piss off noobs, and annoys people in server in general. One of his trademarks is to verbally attack his teammates if he goes down 0-1 at start of the game. Then he'll either quit and talk shit in spec or he'll join other team to exact revenge. Bottom line, this guy is a bitch and he's probably made 100's of people quit this game.

I'll do the week before later tonight and then will turn my attention to others on the list.

I know there's been a great deal of communication going back and forth but I've mentioned this several times. I based my response on a clear subset of those you identified and stated that I agree with the remaining names on that list.

So when you mention details of Everybodypoops I completely agreed with you prior to this information. I also recognized Incubus as well as it's clear that even the best players (Duel or otherwise) don't have records even close to his. So it's not like we aren't in agreement on some of the names you've mentioned. I went through that list and it's when I came across the subset of players that I have previously listed and started reviewing match history for and recently have been spectating their gameplay that I initiated the dialog.

I then made recommendations as to how players might potentially avoid this (locking teams, shuffling). This obviously won't solve the entire problem; however it's not as if this problem never existed before. The only way to avoid this (as it was with Q3A) was to have your own server that you were in full control of. Again not recommending you subscribe to the game as it needs more attention (at the very least content wise). But if you didn't host your own server with Q3A you were left up to the mercy of the public servers. This has always been the case.

u forgot the worst of all: morterfucker

morterfork3r for sure, it wasn't a complete list though, i'll spend more time on it tonight. i'll def add him

ty

Let's start with some recent matches of a player you identified on your list:

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/Ku...fd90/ctf/1

An example of an 8-1 blowout which would initially appear to be a result of stacked teams as it's 3 players vs 1. But in order to really determine what happened you have to take into consideration the detail of the times available via the summary. If you look at the times initially it was a 3 on 3. But then about a minute into the game two of the players on the red team which Kujoe was on quit. Leaving him in a 1 vs 3 situation for several minutes in which nobody switched to the red team. Eventually someone else joins red and then eventually FredMachado switches over. Someone else on blue quits leaving it with a 3 vs 1 the other way. Vexas was in the whole match and certainly could have switched if he wanted while there was 1 player on red but he didn't. So why should someone on red have switched back to blue? In my opinion the end result was justified in this one. If you are more than happy to stack a 3 on 1 without switching then if it happens to become a 1 on 3 at the end you can't complain.

Let's go to the next game:

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/Ku...fd90/ctf/1

Yet another instance of a one sided match 8-1. In this instance you have a match starting with what appears to be uneven teams. Yet if you look closely one of the people rapture_ joins after the match starts and 2 players on blue dropped off almost immediately with several others quitting towards the end of the match. Since the others that quit were in for almost the whole match that would indicate that the score was already 6+ - 1 prior to quitting with less than a minute left. It wouldn't make sense for anyone to switch at that point as it would be impossible to perform 4-5 captures within a minute (even with tricking on space). When there's no chance of balancing the match as it's almost over it's best just to finish it off and try to reset. No sense in switching when there's no chance of a comeback. I wouldn't call a person who was in the game since the start of a match a stacker when other good players happen to join their team.

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/Ku...fd90/ctf/1

Now let's review the next match it looks like based on the times the match started as a 4 vs 3 in favor of red (most likely due to a shuffle and having better players on blue). Someone almost immediately drops from blue leaving red with a 4 on 2 advantage. Did any of the lower tier players switch to balance it out? It doesn't appear that they tried to. They selected to leave it a 4 on 2 with I'm assuming is blue losing. Why do I assume this? The main reason is that because when both rapture_ and another player (MAXIMUS) join (based on time it seems near the end of the match). I believe once a match has started it autojoins and you don't have a choice to specify which team you want to be on. So it autojoined them to blue which logically would indicate that blue was losing. Had blue not been losing then the autojoin would have forced the extra player on red. So again another sample of what could easily be interpreted as, believe it or not, lower tiers stacking (via numbers) against a higher tiered player in which they were beating that team and not attempting to balance the teams out.

Let's take a look at one of chernobyl's recent matches:

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ch...fd90/ctf/1

This is a good example as you can see this match has a number of players that you listed namely (chernobyl, weirdwolf and Kujoe). It appears as if chernobyl and weirdwolf were in the whole game on the same team and Kujoe joined near the start of the match and is on the opposing team. If they were attempting to stack teams this was an example of an unsuccessful stack as both chernobyl and weirdwolf end up losing in a 5-1 match.


http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/ch...fd90/ctf/1

Let's take the next match in which chernobyl and weirdwolf are on the same team. In addition you have some fairly strong players on this team including herc and jehy from 8x. This appears to be a stacked game for one side yet ends up being a good game as it was only 3-2. Afterall if the opposing team only contained one stacker and they can only win via stacking shouldn't this match have been a blowout? Someone from 8x, herc and two others on your list (4 potential stackers) vs another team yet the outcome is 3-2? If members of the opposing team wanted to stack why didn't they spectate and switch when a slot was available? Why didn't they callvote until all the higher level players were on one team? As you've indicated previously they all play together and want to destroy newer players. Yet this game seemed fairly balanced.

So this goes back to some of the points I was trying to make. What looks like a blowout may not necessarily be if you take into consideration the time spent in a game and the quits. Not all of these players are stacking and if they are they apparently aren't very successful in doing it. Lastly these are small samples out of thousands of games being played. So I'm sure you could come up with several games where this may not be the case but these players have played so many games that I wouldn't have a high confidence level in any data (including mine) being posted here as you could just as easily refute it with other matches as I have.

While i do not have enough time to respond back word for word, i will just say one thing, and this goes against your basic analogy above. Just because some of these guys play together and lose doesn't mean they weren't intending on stacking teams. There are lots of alts these days. Anyways, as i said above, will respond back tomorrow.

"While i do not have enough time to respond back word for word, i will just say one thing, and this goes against your basic analogy above. Just because some of these guys play together and lose doesn't mean they weren't intending on stacking teams. "

That is exactly why I incorporated this sentence in my previous reply:

If they were attempting to stack teams this was an example of an unsuccessful stack as both chernobyl and weirdwolf end up losing in a 5-1 match.

So my point wasn't that people who stack couldn't lose as this is a clear example of it. My point was that if they were intentionally trying to stack one of the other players on your list joined the opposing team and offset their attempt to stack resulting in a victory for the other team. Again not to say this is the case in every game but there are apparently exceptions to your rule that everyone on that list

"can be found stacking 24/7"

and

"and ofcourse play ont he same team whenever they join games together"

If the above statement was true why did Kujoe not wait to join the initial stacked team with chernobyl and weirdwolf? He obviously joined after the match started and I'm assuming could have spectated and waited until a slot opened up. I would expect that if these players were doing this 24/7 and joining games together that we'd never see matches like the ones I've identified.

I'm starting to spectate some of these games and I'm not seeing the behavior you've indicated (at least from those I've mentioned). I've seen chernobyl join the opposing team of weirdwolf even though they are in the same clan. I've seen Kujoe at a disadvantage and continue to play. I've also witnessed chernobyl and weirdwolf join the same team (as I believe they are in the same clan) and be beat by an opposing team as one of the people you've called out as a stacker joins the other team and beats them both.

I will certainly continue to watch these matches as I'm all about balanced games but from what I've seen the accusations you've made for some of these players aren't warranted.

Lastly again you can come back with proof of 40-50 games and that is an extremely small percentage of the games that some of these players have played (thousands). I'm not just going by their match data. I'm now starting to go by what I'm witnessing myself watching these games.

why did Kujoe not wait to join the initial stacked team with chernobyl and weirdwolf?

Because kujoe has improved more than anyone else in the u.s ctf community and he "doesn't afraid of anything" anymore. Plus he doesn't normally stack with weirdwolf and chern. If anyone on that list has turned a corner it's him. But that doesn't take away the fact that he stacked for 2 years.

Not every single person on that list is in the same clicque. Since you're focusing so much on those 3, check out specifically re3zurrector, everybodypoops and morterfork3r in the meantime. They're 3 of the worst on that list. Incubus is the worst but i already have a full thread dedicated to him.

I'm not just going by their match data. I'm now starting to go by what I'm witnessing myself watching these games.

that's fine sync, you do that. I have named the same people for the past 3 years now. If i was lying then someone would have said so by now. I'm sorry, but in this respect you're 100% wrong to say these guys aren't the most responsible of the bunch. They just are. If these guys aren't guilty than noone is, which is probably what you're trying to accomplish with this argument so you don't have to fix CTF or punish these guys once and for all.

A lot of what happens in these games is based on the makeup of the players in the game. There are so many subgroups of players it's impossible to predict specifically who will do what in what game. They will also behave differently if the majority of players in game are higher level as opposed to how they'd behave if its' full of noobs.

I have much more to add but i'm extremely busy with writing a guide for another game so this will have to wait a bit longer, but take notice of the 3 specific people i mentioned.

UPDATE: responded above by listing Everybodypoop's last week's games.

"Because kujoe has improved more than anyone else in the u.s ctf community and he "doesn't afraid of anything" anymore. Plus he doesn't normally stack with weirdwolf and chern. If anyone on that list has turned a corner it's him. But that doesn't take away the fact that he stacked for 2 years."

I obviously haven't gone back through all of the match history as that would take a significant amount of time. So I certainly can't speak to what happened in the past both in terms of skill or stacking. But I am in agreement with what you are saying with regards what I've seen recently. This individual is clearly a decent player, holding their own with some pretty challenging odds and trying to balance games when it makes sense.


"Not every single person on that list is in the same clicque. Since you're focusing so much on those 3, check out specifically re3zurrector, everybodypoops and morterfork3r in the meantime. They're 3 of the worst on that list. Incubus is the worst but i already have a full thread dedicated to him."

Again certainly not challenging this as these weren't the people that I originally mentioned. If you want to post information about them with details I'm more than willing to review it; however I don't disagree with you on any of these.


"that's fine sync, you do that. I have named the same people for the past 3 years now. If i was lying then someone would have said so by now. I'm sorry, but in this respect you're 100% wrong to say these guys aren't the most responsible of the bunch."

I'm definitely not sync and one last time I'm not disagreeing with those names. It was the initial subset that I listed. I realize that you probably derived this from me mentioning that you could pay to host your own server.

I'm not stating that people should pay especially given the lack of attention to the game. But if you did run your own server you can invite who you want to, lock teams, kick the people that have been identified as true stackers. I was offering a viable solution to this that is all. If I played as frequently as some of these people and had issues with it I'd spend the amount which comes to less than a dinner and a movie for a years worth of opportunity to do this.

To be honest I'd prefer they just sell the game similar to what they did in Q3A for a one time fee and let people run their own local servers with LAN support. So while I don't fully support their existing model I can say there are solutions to the problem.

"I have much more to add but i'm extremely busy with writing a guide for another game so this will have to wait a bit longer, but take notice of the 3 specific people i mentioned."

I will certainly take a look but note I never disagreed with some of the names including Everybodypoops. Just the ones I called out.

To be honest I'd prefer they just sell the game similar to what they did in Q3A for a one time fee and let people run their own local servers with LAN support.

you and everyone else on this site. They should have realized the subscription model was fail by now. They must truly be trying to squeeze every last penny out of people but it's just pushing more people away from the looks of it.

hilarious u guys are going on and on about this shit x)

Evening there kind Gentlemen, what is this fuss about? For i, spearheaded by experience, stopped paying attention after noticing an abundance of this peculiar object in the topic:

america is the greatest country in the world. plus, we have obama! (j/k about obama, he's a fetch)

Shadowy hates the U.S. more than Al Qaeda.

An American must have stolen his woman or somt.

How naive* is average american on esr. Sorry but simple example from life: most books written by americans and directed to them are naive, infantile, bored, treating reader as half brain monkey.

America is wery NOT


*to avoid to say stupid

Actually not naive at all.

I know there is some douche on the other side of the world somewhere sitting at their computer making a sweeping generalization by expressing their disdain for an entire country of over 300 million people using yet another sweeping generalization to back it up.

Obama's gr8!

(if you doubt me, compare him to George W. Bush, George HW Bush, Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon or James Buchanan)

obama is great? this is a joke right? 9% unemployment is great? obama failed this country 10x harder than jimmy carter. That's hard to do. Since you're ionto comparisons, you should compare what obama has spent in the last 3 years to any other president in history. You'll find he's spent more money than any other president in history, COMBINED!

i know you're banned and all but no he hasn't?

Balrog Obama for imperator fa sh0o0o0o0o0

i prefer to remain anonymous, i find that the silent majority works best for me.

u must be john hill

i don't suggest it, it will just lead to flaming. Just make an account.

eh superjaek what happen to quake con computer you promise many player ?

here is 1stPhenom/xsvkamikaze

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyixnJtemKg

other accounts are kamikaze_ , phenomental1ty
all banned.

just look at that kid thinking he is any good LOL. what has the world come to

Anyone from 1.16 is like that. They all cheat and they're all bad. Sup now?

This is exactly what i was talking about, we went from one topic to another, you really have nothing better to do with your day then search to see if people are stacking teams; ROLFCAKES!

As with any game today be it a console or pc, you play with people you know, you play against people that are better / worse then your skill level, this is just a normal way of any gaming sytem and how it is set up.

The biggest mistake QL ever made was to make the claim, "PLAY AGAINST PEOPLE OF YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL" as with anything like this it is impossilke to do!

Oh wait unless you pay that is, hence my point, matters not if there are hacks, pay to get rid of them, dont like stacking, pay to stack your own teams, don't like tier slumming, pay to not allow them on your server.

Does anyone see a reoccuring theme here?

Pay to Play boys and all your problems go away.

Enjoy your day.

P.S. I have a pro account this makes my second year with one and i have spawned 3 servers to date.

As with any US QL game today be it a pub or pickup, you play with people you admire, you play against people that are terribad / worse then your skill level, this is just a normal way of any CTF game and how it is set up.

fixed that for ya

Oh wait unless you pay that is, hence my point, matters not if there are hacks, pay to get rid of them, dont like stacking, pay to stack your own teams, don't like tier slumming, pay to not allow them on your server.

most new players dont' stick around long enough to get a friends list big enough for a subscription to work properly. Plus, depending on your physical location, it just may not make sense to buy a subscription. Case in point; asian players / western U.S players.

P.S. I have a pro account this makes my second year with one and i have spawned 3 servers to date.

100$ bucks later most of us bought 3 games to date.

p.s: i do agree with you that id should remove the "play against.." on the home page as well. It's a false, stupid claim that makes noobs think the game is even remotely fair. With that said, the issue at hand is in regards to sportsmanship and regulation. Nothing is fair outright, but play can be curtailed when it gets out of hand / imbalanced.

Whether cooloutac's ideas on autobalance are correct is a matter of opinion. What is sure though, he's right about other games having these features in the first place. Quake Live is simply unfinished for a "competitive" game. If it was just a casual experiment nobody would care. But after 3 years of leaderboards, detailed stats on the end match screen,/ profile, etc people got obsessed with the competitive aspect of it and want more features to ensure some level of fairness, otherwise, what's the point of taking it seriously in the first place.

Yawn

GROUNDBREAKING REVELATION REVEALED IN THIS THREAD:

DUTRA CHEATS... WHO KNEW????!!!!! SOMEONE CALL OPRAH

oh wait.... it's quake live.... noone cares........

never hacked in my life, nt.

dont' worry bro noone cares. do whatever

Poor dt still thinks people believe he is legit if you put half the time into playing the game and trying to get better as you do trying to hide your hack you would be semi-decent at this game even if it took you 6 years.

rofl ok show me when have i hacked.

Cheaters in general, and a crew in particular has been systematically ruining QL for years now. I've played quake for over 10 years and stopped playing for 9 months after finally having proved to myself what I suspected for years and months. There are often 2,3,4 cheats on a top tier CA server at any given time. I've also had guys openly admit to cheating during duels with me at the end of the game (not that I needed the confirmation, but it was nice to get some honesty out of a dishonest person).

How did I officially prove to myself that cheaters really did exist? What did I shamefully have to resort to? Well, the only thing I could do, I paid the stupid $25 for the full blown hack to see what it was all about. 9+ years of playing quake and I never once so much as searched for a hack, let alone downloaded and installed one. NEVER would I EVER want to cheat. However, after installing and playing with the cheat for an hour or two I stopped playing quake for months because I was so disappointed, upset and generally PEEVED with what I witnessed that I lost all love for quake. Well, not love lost for quake, but for the community. A few bad apples really does ruin the bunch, and this group has been systematically ruining it for a lot of us for a very long time.

What group of people? All of the people mentioned above, specifically NOML and {$}.

One server I joined, a 5v5 CA had no less than 4 wallers on the team (I've no idea about aim botters, because that's difficult to prove), but the wallers were hilarious. On almost every server I connected to, with all sorts of different people (probably a small group with a lot of aliases) I was able to dance behind walls with enemies. I'm not sure how to explain it other than imagine a wall separating you and I ... you absolutely shouldn't be able to see me, and I shouldn't be able to see you ... however, when we're both walling, we can go left together, then right together, then stop together, walk together, and jiggle back and forth together ... as soon as the cheaters noticed, more often than not, they'd stop, type "lol" and either continue, or immediately disconnect from the server. After an hour or two of this I got so pissed off I stopped playing quake for a very long time. The longest break I've ever had from something I enjoy. I paid $25 for a months use of a hack to see if people were hacking and only had to use it for an hour... I paid for a month of "hacking" and only needed it for my purposes for about 60 minutes, at which point, not only did I obviously never hack again, but I didn't even find any reason to play quake any more. Why bother playing with 25-50% cheaters.

What inspired me to write today? The mention of NOML, as those are the people that inspired me to first find out about the QL cheat after POWERSTYLER shot 87% rail, shooting with the button held down, 2v2 on thunderstruck with a 160ms to 180ms ping (no idea why his ping was that high that day). These fucking assholes loved to follow me and my buddy, server to server, every night, just to rape us with hacks. Almost always they'd let it be 10-9 or 10-8, always with them hacking out rounds when they needed them.

The above occurred after MONTHS of being harassed online by these guys (and it continues to this day) by all of the following:

a) walling like no tomorrow
b) taking turns on map changes with who toggles
c) often keeping the matches to 10-7, 10-8, 10-9 so they can rack up 80-100 points every map
b) following myself and friends from server to server to cheat and ruin our honest fun
e) cheating and then saying "your a noob" or "you're bad" (after setting their cheats to "aim on leader" or "aim on <person> first"

All of this abuse has:

a) made me very paranoid about cheaters
b) taken all but the most basic fun out of the game for me
c) led to an overall distrust and unhappy play environment for what is likely 100's if not 1000's of North American players (many of which we've probably already lost)
d) led me to believe that some of the best people in our community gave up, leaving us with a bunch of these shit tards instead

Suffice to say, if I could pay $50 a month to play cheat free, i would in a heart beat. If I could pay $1,000 a head for these cheaters, I'd hand over the cash even quicker.

----

The saddest of all is:

a) ID software doesn't care or do anything
b) the cheaters have the nerve to post on esreality and quakelive forums, often with the same bullshit of "they're just better players"
c) even when banned they never seem to dissapear
d) there's still tons of cheaters (probably the same fuck tards under other aliases)


I never want quake to die, but I really do feel like this cheating epidemic is likely the final nail in the coffin because I simply can't see any new players being able to play this game long enough, with enough enjoyment, given the current state of cheating.

Just sad really ... really sad :(

d) led me to believe that some of the best people in our community gave up, leaving us with a bunch of these shit tards instead

the most commited for sure. Now there's just a bunch of turds playing who couldnt' give 2 shits if the game closed down tomorrow as they'd just move on to the next game to destroy.

These fucking assholes loved to follow me and my buddy, server to server, every night, just to rape us with hacks.

sounds like fun. REminds me of my lollercopter/incubus vs mevil/raythenoob on ctf4 days.

this guy nailed it.

To follow up...

I really do think ID SOFT is missing an opportunity. People are paying good money for hacks ... thing is, I'd pay good money to play without cheaters, to play with some detection or something.

I pay $3.99 a month, but I'd pay a lot more if I could upgrade to the "cheat prevention" account.

oh, cheating aside, I love this one:

calling a vote for a shuffle when the total number of players in the game is an odd number .... let's say 5v4 at the moment ... call shuffle and the best 4 players, more often than not, end up on the one team ... soon as the 4 are on the one team the spectator joins.

How honourable :(

calling a vote for a shuffle when the total number of players in the game is an odd number .... let's say 5v4 at the moment ... call shuffle and the best 4 players, more often than not, end up on the one team ... soon as the 4 are on the one team the spectator joins.

very typical ctf strategy that most veterans know. shuffle always put the best 4 players on the same team and moves the noobs as a majority to the other team. That would work, somewhat, if it wasnt' for the fact that the spectator stacker (let's say a weirdwolf or everybodypoos) wasn't able to join the team of 4. Another fail. But as i said, until id attempts to fix these obvious issues in ctf, nothing will change...

north americans and their borderline schizophrenic drama..

I'm not even sure what that means, or who it's in reference to, but I'm Canadian.

Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation.

There's never any drama in europe. Totally agree...

A few idiots on esr is all it takes for you to write off a whole continent? You suck.

This must be limbo.

Close this abomination of a thread.

Holy cow this thread is sad. Raythenoob, if you spent your time in-game instead of writing 10 pages essays and researching people's QL histories for days, you would've became so good that you'd be able to rape all these "tiers slummers and trolls" by yourself, raging them out of every game you'd play in.

Instead you remained a mediocre player, and even if I play for 2-3 days 4 times per year, I'm still better than you. I'm disappointed :(

oh i probably could with a good mouse. So far i'm limited to 2 play styles dependant on the type of mouse i use; one giving me great freedom in movement but poor aim (small travel mouse) and another gives me great aim but poor movement controls (large heavy mouse). Maybe if i still gave a flick i'd research the perfect mouse to help my way but there's only so much i can do against 3 stackers in a game of ctf.

p.s: that you lollercopter?

gotpie.

what iv'e beaten you before, come on now

I think the thread is in reference to the fact that there's a bunch of people cheating and ruining what could be a fun game for everyone. Of particular annoyance is the fact that this game we all love is already having trouble attracting and keeping players.

The fact that some of the people being cheated against aren't as good as people that don't cheat, or the people that do cheat, isn't really of any consequence.

There's no doubt that there's a lot of us that play that aren't very good, and some are very good.

There's also no doubt that nobody should be cheating and those that do are just ruining it for the majority.

hey dude, you were right, the good people quit and left only the shitheads behind to remain.

sadly despite being 100% on the money, people here are going to try to convince you you're crazy and that its not true, possibly because they're part of the clique you describe, possibly because they're so obsessed they can't see the truth, but more likely because this site is full of morons who were never truly good at the game.

that, plus a shitload of cheaters inhabit this site as well. It's sadly a losing battle. Id doesn't care and expects the community to take care of them. But without the ability to permaban these people there is simply no point in catching them since they can just make a new account, rinse and repeat. The whole system id put in place is a joke.

I couldn't agree more :(

lol, should make this thread into a movie...

pubmasters is that movie, nothing but a bunch of stacking slummers in that (herc, etc)

The problem is most of the people in this community don't consider anything dishonest or deemed cheating... unless its a hack/bot.

but imo, making alts in the same game mode with tiers and stats......tier slumming on alts or camping newb servers.......and team stacking......is just as bad as botting. Actually worse....

most bots will just end up in the higest tiers.... its when they start slumming and team stacking on newbs that it becomes a problem.... this is a more detrimental issue imo.

buy pro and make your own server and invite your crew(players of your caliber that you deem fun to play with)

invite who dude? really..


i'm guessing you must be a skill 80+ player if otherwise? lmao...

only the best of the best are buying pro in this game. Its they way ID set up the game.... Premium is more like t5 dude.

if you don't like t4.... why would u play even better players in premium.

who would a newb invite if he goes pro? nobody has enough friends to fill up a server dude. Have you ever tried to get your premium server filled.

even popular veteran with a crapload of friends can't get their server filled. ask around..... do you even play this game.

another ID EMPLOYEEEEEEE.......


like i said playing on someone else premium server is more like going from a t4 pub..... to premium which is T5!!!j

its an even WORSE experience then playing on a pub. The premium players in quakelive.... are the crem de la crem that are the ones most responsible for this games unpopularity in the first place.

who are you selling this lie to? who? not even brand new newbs are gonna fall for something so delusional.

No reason to play without tournaments, so no..and I am not selling anything, just giving an idiot an idea to run with.

And people wonder why quake isn't prominent in e-sports anymore...

if I got banned for hackin why don't you all ask syncerror.. the person who actually banned me -_-
i have never recalled talkin to you about hacks superjake, well at least not this year.. plus i have proof of the email iD sent me regardin my ban. go look at it porschemonkeys.

this is a mumbler after the first mumble me and ganja chilled in and i never told superjake this info. someone else did so don't blame me. just go ask syncerror for the truth i did not get banned for hacking dutra you mexican.

Nice work superjake!

Since there's so many of them these days, I just don't give a shit playing with them anymore. I try to get my frags and leave. It's pretty sad how I'm developing a tolerance for hackers lately.

In my prime. I made everyone looked like shit in ts 1v1. Its not hacks just skill. I used to beat remedy. But got raped by tyler. Alot of you are confused. The game isn't about just aim. It involves movement, aim, and wits... some people play differently, like tyler. Something about his fluid like movement and diversity raped me. Everyone on my mumble plays league of legends exclusively. I used to shit on some hackers because they were bad. Not at hacks, that's what is impossible, but bad dumb players. Predictable. Stop complaining and enjoy the game for what it is or move on. I did. Thorian

^
|


heartless.us

:DDDDDDDD

In my prime. I made everyone looked like shit in ts 1v1. Its not hacks just skill. I used to beat remedy. But got raped by tyler. Alot of you are confused. The game isn't about just aim. It involves movement, aim, and wits... some people play differently, like tyler. Something about his fluid like movement and diversity raped me. Everyone on my mumble plays league of legends exclusively. I used to shit on some hackers because they were bad. Not at hacks, that's what is impossible, but bad dumb players. Predictable. Stop complaining and enjoy the game for what it is or move on. I did.Thorian

lol good troll.

hacker cha1n banned for using QLHook: http://i.imgur.com/honcO.png

inb4excuses why id anticheat is incompetent&new alt accts etc

#exposed

good, his grades were dropping and now he can finally do his shitty 10th grade prealgebra hw

He's 15, so he's probably in 9th grade, not 10th grade.

loool micropenis finally bant

as much as i think artud deserves a ban too, its good to see the shitties are getting banned finally.

the amount of premium cheaters is fucking disgusting but even if they got rid of them all its too late for QL now.

Fully agree but seeing how cha1n's last game was vs syncerror he more then likely said something that got him banned rather then being banned for hacking. Get Celestial banned then you'll get a +

chain was banned for constantly trolling QL admins with hybridd in a server. hes was simply being a fucktard. hes not good enough to be deemed a hacker.

cha1n: starbuck u make me hot like a starrbucks coffee
.403. Starbuck: <--- isn't starbucks
.403. Starbuck: Now shut up.
.403. Starbuck: All of youl.
.403. NinjaK: rofl
hybridd: starbuck can i make a private server and invite only you to it?
cha1n: starbuck join my server ill teach you howto bridge to my rail
hybridd: i love a girl who knows how to jump on things
.403. SyncError connected
cha1n disconnected










Is why chain got banned.

oh, that's why chain got banned. so.. why did chain get banned, again? I'm confused.

for being a douchenozzle to QL admins.

because thats syncerrors daughter so im told

hahahahaha oh god

http://quakecon.quake-live.tv/2009/08/17/young-gamers-club/

oh my god O.O
sorry but
now i understand

Fear you say dick backflipz...what the f*ck is wrong with you

rofl what? who are u? LOL

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI_VQjaIXkE

bentley

mad

seems a bit hypocritical calling everybody nerds when talking about posting irc logs and referring to people by their online alias huh

kid is 15, taking pre-algebra classes in the 10th grade and has his mom bake him meatloaf every single night while he practices 7 hours daily on this terrible game. cut him some slack broski. don't wanna make lil cha1n mad

i hate americans

lol..

Canada much?

lol what look at these guys :D its just stupid flaming

moronnnn..

i wonder why you are still here posting. Shouldn't you be over at teamliquid. makes no sense. smh