chess

Go

How about Global Thermonuclear War?

Chess

sc2

hahaha

-_-

/me slaps sonic about abit with a large trout

StarCraft ;D
GO

i kinda knew someone would say that

define "skill ceiling" in a way that makes it comparable between different games.

How much can a player theoretically improve their skill at this game before there is no way to get better?

This doesn't suffice.

Who is "better" then? rapha? messi? nadal? kasparov?

Different games need different skills. How are we supposed to compare them? Are cognitive abilites more important than motor skills? How to weigh them? Defining the "limit" of a skill is difficult, too.

i figured people would assume i wasn't talking about athletics, so that's one thing

another thing that i guess you have to take into account is the amount of things possible in the game to improve on (i guess you could call it the 'depth' of the game)

just for example: i don't see how people can say 'chess' takes more skill than a game like quake, where you have to constantly be reacting to the other player in real-time in a 3d space with seemingly limitless possibilities, as opposed to a turn-based game with an 8x8 grid that has only so many possible moves in any given game. the game can practically be solved by a computer and will be 100% unbeatable once computers reach human-level intelligence. (edit: this is an ignorant statement, i didn't realize solving chess was actually a thing on peoples' minds)

however, if you were to play against a computer in quake, even if the computer was given 100% accuracy, it still would have to be told how to do things like strafe jumping, placing itself in good positions to pickup items and frags, how to control spawns, how to deny movement around the map, etc.

does this help?

lol man...chess will never be solved!!

Chess is infinite: There are 400 different positions after each player makes one move apiece. There are 72,084 positions after two moves apiece. There are 9+ million positions after three moves apiece. There are 288+ billion different possible positions after four moves apiece. There are more 40-move games on Level-1 than the number of electrons in our universe. There are more game-trees of Chess than the number of galaxies (100+ billion), and more openings, defences, gambits, etc. than the number of quarks in our universe!

and chess takes so much skill..u ever heard of garry kasparov? he's like rapha/cypher x 1000!! thinking processes in chess are far beyond quake but in quake there are other factors. aim,movement...

it's stupid to compare it to chess, u definately improve faster in quake. but if we compare quake just in fps category it's in a league of its own.. hardest fps ever..

1. you don't need every possible position to solve a game of chess
2. i said 'practically,' meaning there are chess engines that are unbeatable by humans, however, i acknowledge that just because they are unbeatable by humans does not make it solved

chess will be solved one day, at least via a constructive proof that can solve either a win or a draw. there are 10^20 possible positions in checkers, yet when they got down to solving it, they figured out that only 10^14 positions were relevant.

i´d say so, too. not all possibilities in chess might be relevant. but then again.. you might have to change your game to play for remi. then which positions will be relevant. ...such complex. maybe quantum computing will take us there. think about what happens if they make computers work as a brain..as they have done with part cat brains and certainly rat brain emulation (well parts of it). are you ready to face hal 1 billion? imagine then hooking a cyberbrain up to the internet. he could hack into everything with his brainpower, manipulate everything and everyone. means we´d kinda have to bend over to him or her (:D) and just hope she´s well mannered and of good character.

I just wanted to point out you proved it wasn't infinite.


But point taken.

Hence chess will be solved eventually in the far future since its a purely computable game devoid of emotion in the end.

How can you compare a computer with human-like intelligence playing chess with a computer without playing Quake? If the computer playing Quake has the same intelligence as the one playing chess the tasks in Quake you mentioned wouldn’t be a problem would it? :D.

i was just merely referring to the amount of computation power required to generate the endgame tables in a reasonable amount of time... do some research about solving games, shit is pretty interesting if you're into that sort of thing

CS

minus ;C

half life?

Pokemon

scbw and cs1.6

i wouldnt put sc2 above any quake until all the expansions are out.

sc2 is so much better than any quake game already

better maybe..harder?? hmmm..let's dont even start the infinite debate..both games are great!

i'm infinity times better in q* than i am in sc2 :(

something tells me you'd make short work of pro SC2 players in Quake, too...

better =/= has higher skill ceiling

if sc2 only was an fps shooter. its not, so the comparison is weak imho. its hard to compare different kinds of genre - you may compare cs and ql but then only in tdm. ql duel or quake in general is pretty unique and the skill ceiling is pretty intense. one mistake, and you are wiped out.

could say the same for any sc2 game played, especially at the tip top level!

Why in gods name does cs have a higher skill ceiling?

Since top players are practicing SCBW at around 8-10 hours per day, and still haven't hit the skill cap of SCBW, I'd say that it is easily the highest skill cap game out there. SC2 comes in second.

Amount of practice time doesn't equal skill raise -.-

If they can't hit the skill cap with 8 hours of practice per day (over 10 years now), it's got a high skill cap.

I'm not denying that sc has a huge skillcap I'm just saying that 10 hours practice doesn't automatically grant you the highest possible level of play. I know that koreans were for the most part untouchable in sc hence their way of practice should be the best. But imo you can reach the same level with less but better designed practice. Esports is relatively young and not a lot of people have done any research on it.

Intelligent and focused practice is better of course. However, experience and recent form matter the most. If you are a pro BW player playing in Korea and not putting in 8-12 hours a day of practice, you will free fall down the rankings. There are no top BW players who only practice 2-4 hours a day because they "know how to practice".

We have had 3 dominators in quake: Fatal, Toxjq, and rapha. All of whom practiced like quake was a full time job.

I would have gone into more detail to support it, but I thought it was well-known that they are pushing those 8 hours to the limit. Did you read Boxer's biography? They literally play against the most brutal opponents, and spend hours discussing and refining strategies in team houses. Doing that, and doing it well, they still haven't hit the cap.

how could you train better than the korean scbw pros?
they live around the best players and train with a system/schedule. on top of that they have a big pool of practice partners and teams usually have got coaches for every race to support players aswell. also they dont travel a lot (like pro players from other games) so they can use their time really well.

there will always be little things to improve but its damn near perfect

Tbh every game/sport that lasts forever won't ever reach/hit skill cap, there's always room for (some) improvement. There always will be better Messis, Federers, Daigos, Flashes, raphas etc at some point as longs as the game/sport is still alive, but yeah SC has to be one of those games. Michael Phelps's achievements/skills, however, will be hard to "beat" any time soon :]

Survey of Childbearing Women?

what do you mean by higher skill ceiling?

most games are easy to get started with, quake is hard for begginers
now getting pro at any competitive game is amazingly hard, no games are easier than others in that aspect

qw

Q43A

Do you need a game with higher skill ceiling? Did you hit the skill ceiling in q3/ql, so further improvement is impossible?

Highest skill games require a lot of time to master, and to be the best you must sacrifice everything...

just curious

san guo sha

dont understand any of it

as long as there are at least two people competing, the skill ceiling of almost any game with depth is infinite

i challenge u to a game of flip the coin, but i must warn u, imma daaaaaaamn good

of almost any game

almost any

almost

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhahahghahahahah

lol I challenge you to read my post properly :}

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhahahghahahahah

Maybe you didn't get it, let me eleaborate:

almost any game with depth

flipping a coin is not a game with depth.

u really dont get that im trolling? :D

it was like: don't know if trolling or genuinely stupid... :E

im sad now

If we talk about a games, then the old ones. Where you fucking die at the first 30 seconds@1st level....numerous times :D

minecraft

quake2

eHarmony

just go and play chess.
ffs

i'm not asking for a suggestion
i want to know what people think

so are you telling him to go play chess, or are you counting both the games "chess" and "go"?

an infinate number of random glitches called stones on the grass

be king stoner on ya sofa n 4 players

the thing is, we have no idea where the skill ceiling of quake duel is, because the scene has always been at an amateur level. sure some players lived from what they earned from playing quake but there has never been a 3-4 year phase with a big pool of players commiting full time to playing quake and working on their game in a real practice environment.

tribes 2 lol

Any of the Call of Duty games, for sure. Where are the lunging knife kills in Quake? How about RC car bombs? Or helicopter gun ships? One to two shot kills? Hahah, let's see those strafe jumping

Thought so.

Quake = easy.

Call of Duty = challenge.

Believe it, nerds.

need a vid of these lunging knife kills

trollbait

sounds gangsta, make the vid thirdperson and in slowmotion

The original Call of Duty was/is a challenging game in multiplayer with a pretty high skill ceiling to be honest.

yep, first cod with its insane recoil was great, next cods were shit :(

2/10, seriously weak

ahahaha cod lol...quake is soooo much harder.

Half Life 1 Adrenaline Gamer is pretty sick.
Also, define 'Quake Series' ...
Quake Live is totally different than for example CPMA, which is harder in many ways.

cpm is also easier in some aspects

LIFE. (not the game LIFE, as in living, bitches)

+100500

tetris on the hardest lvl 19! almost impossible but I did it ^^

ez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhJG6YvtyaA

We can theoretically try and figure out the highest skill one can get in Quake Live or Starcraft but theres also another trait that you can't really measure, it's called creativity.

For Quake Live say, the highest theoretical skill you can have is to be able to time every item on the map, that includes all health bubbles etc as well as have 100 percent aim not including spam. But no one will probably ever get that good. But players like Rapha can time all the armours, MH and keep track of the exact stack of the opponent as well as have a good aim. But memorising all this information means nothing unless your opponent can't time and you win by simply "showing" up to an item.

Creativity is the branch of thinking which strategy comes from and you use the information of timing and enemy stack and position to formulate plans and tactics. Creativity can sort of be measured by the fact you can create better tactics with more information so someone who can time everything on a map should have a an advantage.

Now back to Starcraft, a lot of that game takes place on the creative side. The skill side is still enormously high but tactics and strategies is at the heart of it, just like any RTS. It's one of the reasons Boxer was really good in his time, because of his creativity. Then you get someone like Idra who doesn't have much creativity and just practises the "skill" side and will lose a lot because of this.

tl:dr

Every game has two sides, skill and creativity. Skill can be measured while creativity can't. They can be compared to the left and right brain. Creativity encompasses thinking and acting on the information you get in the game.

Err, timing is a huge aspect of Starcraft - even more than Quake. Idra doesn't fail because he is all APM, but rather just because he has an extremely aggressive playstyle, no patience, and he's really playing out of his league.

I know timing is important to SC2. Looking at the clock at certain points in the game and comparing it to your opponent's decisions will give you information about their builds etc. (which can work the other way to for misinformation). Thats apart of the skill of SC2.

I never said Idra loses because of APM, I said that he doesn't have much creativity and practises the mechanics of the game, a.k.a the skill side and loses to more creative play.

i think you're forgetting about timing pushes

Why would you bring up SC as if it were somehow different to Quake as a "creative" game, when the defining "skill" part of QL is present in both games? It's even more of a factor to time in SC, so it just seems odd that you would use it as something to compare.

I guess the ceiling would be highest in the game with most activity and fiercest competition and has been out for some time? A combination of those three seems about right.

Wouldn't know which has the highest theoretical skill ceiling.

A skill ceiling is defined by the rules of the game, not the competition. The more complex a game is, the higher the ceiling. Competition helps players reach the ceiling.

clearly call of duty mw2

Life

Hey looks it's Subjective Opinions Based on Arbitrary, Superficial Criteria: The Thread.

Jolly good.

I want to [+] you but cant cos of french retard :c

TF2

Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike. Games 10+ years old and people still finding out new shit.

Ultrono Arena

Russian Roulette.

or

skydiving without a parachute

Broodwar because it is exclusively played by South Korean robots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvL3Vxn1g-8

Wrecking crew - NES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iokmfmh41hk&feature=related

try play singleplayer games like this !!! check this out duuude :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKIpyz0EjuY

had to watch the full run lol.. just wow!!

sick!

God, HL bunnyhop is so great.

quakeworld / unrealtournament. hf

wow

FPS wise, you aint going to get anything much more skill worthy than the quake series imo, and sadly it stops there since FPS and PC gaming has gone to shit.

Tic tac toe.
It's so high skill, that even the best players cannot win in that game.

lol true

but they might not be able to win even a 4 year old, or even a monkey if it is trained well, even maybe raythenoob!!

ice climbers - NES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUo7bZYuk70

BASE jumping:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List

such a weird feeling seeing these people smiling in the photos and reading how they died :<

I get a comforting feeling. We will all die but they died when doing what they loved, knowing and actively serching the risk.

sc2 is obviously THE competition game for PC. If u don't have it already then insta get it, definitely the best option for what u are asking.

koOma is not amused.

<o,,,O>

explain what you think my motivation was for posting this thread

an alternative to quake?

no. i was just curious what other games you guys think are at/above the level of quake

I think a better way to describe it is the level to which players can differentiate themselves in higher or lower echelons of skill. So games like chess take many years to master and you can easily tell a great player from a good player from a mediocre player from an amateur, etc.

this ?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZeIOM50gT0

holy f$@#

if that's real that's gotta be up there in the realm of near impossible.

First 3 minutes were boring, but then... I'm speechless. :)

While this is indeed VERY impressive, and I've seen other amazing videos of the sort, this is 100% reflexes. You turn your brain off and operate only on reflexes. I feel that other games necessiting both reflexes AND tactical and strategic thinking are therefore more demanding in terms of skill (not necessarily in terms of physical efforts when playing, because using your reflexes to that extent is incredibly exhausting).

agreed, a lot of what is going on in that video is muscle memory, and while that is impressive in its own right, i don't think tetris comes anywhere close to quake in terms of skill requirements

Dating

This?

http://www.agame.com/games/dating/dating.html

For team games Wolfenstein Enemy Territory requires more skill and knowledge than CTF or TDM in quake.

lol man, that was funny :D

ET is all about teamplay, no other skills involved... 5 years old kid can time spawns, because they are 20/30, movement isnt big factor of game, aiming is easy as long as ur lowsenser...

"ET is all about teamplay, no other skills involved..."
Aim and knowing where to be at the right time. Which the same thing can be said for TDM - "it's just teamplay, aim and positioning, no other skills involved lol"
sounds pretty dumb right?

"5 years old kid can time spawns, because they are 20/30, "

Uhm, sure, I'll give you the fact that it's easier to actually time the spawns because they are 20/30 (easier to work with), but that isn't what is important here. What's important in ET is knowing how to play in accordance with your enemy's spawn time. examples- should our team push in now, or wait? Should I gib opponent with SMG by wasting bullets, with knife and risk being defenseless, or to even gib at all? Knowing the opponents spawn time will give you a better idea of when it is safe to carry out the objective or put yourself in better position.

"movement isn't a big factor of the game"
are you trolling? Movement is huge. The competitive game mode is stop watch. That means one team sets a time and the other team has to beat it. So at all times if you can move from point A to B quicker than your opponent, you have a huge advantage.
The game runs on q3 engine, so strafe jumping is very similar. A player picks up speed jumping down hill. There are also an endless amount of trick jumps to learn for the game. Many competition maps have spots that aren't easily accessed by simply jumping to them.

"aiming is easy if you lower your sense"
I'm not sure how to respond to this. I doubt you have ever played this game competitively or you probably wouldn't have responded the way you have. The quickest way to kill your opponent is by getting consistent head shots. The better aimers will get more headshots. So for you, it's easy to get lots of headshots by just lowering your sensitivity. Now, of course, I agree that lowering sensitivity is the best way to start at improving your aim. But it is totally ridiculous to say, all you have to do is lower to your sensitivity to start rattling off headshots on every opponent that you see. It's ridiculously easy to spot an aimbotter because of this, snapping to players and consistently getting 3 headshots in a row. That doesn't happen normally because thats just about impossible. If aiming is easy, why isn't everyone doing this? Because its not easy. stop trolling

hilarious...

what aim? ET is made for aimless ppl who use 0,1 sensitivity to have almost no bullet spread and they play as defensive as you can, even when playing allies... you dont need to shoot headshots, just hit first bullet and keep constant 40+ accuracy, so your enemy will have +50% spread and shitload of knockback, making it impossible to fight back... Not to mention all random spam.


And yeah, play according to spawns... Push out when allies spawned/you're close to your own spawn.... Push when axis are selfkilling... Dont push if you have spawn in next few seconds...
3 sentences and you know all about spawnsystem in ET...

Find me more than one player whos movement is important factor of his team tactics...

I doubt YOU ever played this game, at least on european skill level....


PS. and you know shit about id3tech .

DotA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ&feature=related

mushi is easy once you actually try getting into it

i recently cleared the xbox 360 mushi futari on ultra my first time ever playing it, with no continues used

cpm

q43a

its got lipsynced voicetaunts on key binds or on frag if voicetaunts are enabled on server config, strafe jumping, dodge jumping, air dodge jumping, and alternative fire, custom player run speed in server config, instant respawns, materialtype footstep sounds, and whole lot more n shit

does it have ntf? :DDDDDD

download it and find out http://nullnuke.netai.net/download.php?op=vie...amp;lid=18

dont be a fucking retard and delete any of the pk4 like most assholes on here, especially the 666.pk4, it has the drivers "libraries" in for windows and linux, with all the recoding and new features,

and lets any OS connect to a dedicated server and download the whole mod and start playing

no thx

Saints Row 2

Fuck, landing jets on top of tiny skyscrapers takes a while

And as a serious answer, sc:bw probably, there are arguably some other games but it's matter of opinion, such as counter strike

SC2 isn't even close

chess? lol?

skill is something different.

cpma

Mushihimesama.

Russian roulette

samurai baseball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk&feature=related