bullseye in many ways.

On the other hand, i would rather look at the bright side of things, at least for as long as i can ;)

I agree :)

Fred's absolutely right..
in some countries in Europe Intel has stopped sponsoring CPL because of the massacre in Germany...
kewl sponsor...
buahah progamer kids suck..
=)

I thought it was way easier to be negative rather than positive... at least it is for me

Edit: pants, i clicked on the "reply" button at the earlier post, and it hasnt worked, IE5.5 for macintosh bug or something?

Yeah, let's all switch to tractorpulling.

LoL well he's just killed morale for everyone lol

It's all in a days work for Cynic Man :)

Wibble, off to find the local tractor pulling club.....plenty of farms around here must be a club with a resident pro!

Bit e

theres a lot of pro gaming in korea :p

sorry, i posted that before i read the article :p
lots of good points there, but also, a pro gamer will probably only last as long as the game does, which is about 3 or 4 years. one clan / gamer is not likely to be good at all games

I think you have a point to a certain, extent, but pro-gaming is early days yet.

It's people like Angel that make the difference by setting up associations like CPL.

Remember it takes years for anything new to take off.

In the event of something new people who try to set up a future for something will always come under fire, and there are always cynics.

Perhaps one day it will be big enough, but one thing is for sure, nobody never got anywhere by being cynical, they just made those with vision even more determined.

Interesting read tho':)

Jam
"Better to die trying, than not to try at all!"

Oh.... but I Wonder.... if online gaming grows a lot in the next years... what will be the difference between playing football or e-sports?

I think that playing football is another crap, who would think when it was created that it was going to generate that huges ammounts of money?

imho I prefer e-sports, at least you can develope more strategics while playing CS than when you play football. Above all because you see all the playing field :p.

Well I'm not going to explain more about this. I hope someone to agree with me.

Just think that football is kinda stupid: kick a damn ball to get it into three damn poles with a net behind :P. And why does it generate that business? Publicity, because it has a massive following. Imo online gaming isn't as extended as football is but it's matter of time.

Football was created many years ago (many many many many) and in the last years is when it has started to generate that marketing.

How on earth will it grow?

The CPL have already jumped to the biggest game there is (Even if it based on a 5-6 year old game, with obsolete graphics etc). They can't switch games, since no game is even close to CS is size. What now? Are they going to wait for a game to pass CS in size in a few years (most likely due to CS losing players, mind you) and then say "THAT is our pro game". Most likely that "new" game would be as obsolete as CS was when CPL adopted it.

Growth cost a lot of money. Until you find a way to get the actual consumers to pay the bulk of the money required for growth the CPL will never go beyond its 2-3 LANs/year existance. I don't see any attempts from CPL to get the gamers to pay for anything, most likely since they know that when they do - the illusion will be broken.

Your compare football with Counterstrike. I will use this very exact same comparison to point out why CS will never be like football.
Like ZombikE says, football was invented many many years ago and has millions of active and amature players. Why is that?
1. You can play football with almost no resources.
2. The rules are quite simple and the game is easy to follow.
3. The game has not changed (sifnificantly) over time.

Whats the difference from CS?
1. You need access to hi-tech equipment
2. The rules are hard to understand and to explain ("well, you see, he camped instead of trying to plant because then the opponents get less money next round...")
3. The game is under constant change.

A new sport takes years and years and years to get popular and accepted in, for example, the Olympics. Look at snowboarding, it's been around for a decade or so and even so it's considered a new sport.
But then, you say, CS will get the same attention in a decade or so. Well, that is not likely to happen since the players will have migrated to another game or the game or at least a new way of playing it (Virtual Reality perhaps?)

Even if you love the game, play it every day, and play it very well you are not likely to play it in 10 years. In 10 years the idea of playing pro-CS would be exactly what you think about playing pro-pacman today. In other words:
Not going to happen.

Well this column is VERY opinionated...

yeah, in progaming there are two ways of thought:
a) It r0x and will r0x it only needs a little more public.
b) It sux. It won't ever grow up.

But think that columns express the toughts of the writer. os it's really opinable. In fact this web is really related with pr0 gaming so I expect a big fight in these comments since many people who writes/reads/is registered here have a sponsorship and I think they won't be quiet.

Note: I haven't sponsorship but i choose A.

Honestly, you don't see things in correct way. ProGaming pool is a place where the sponsors fight each other and sponsoring LANs and top teams is effective way how to make their products and the NAME of the company more known. I personally play for team which is being sponsored by Logitech, we use thir t-shirts, their hardware, we're well known in mutliplayer gaming community and our name is connected with the mark "Logitech". And btw, multiplayer is a way how to play games in future, dont forget this. If you don't know why is this pro-gaming and sponsoring effective, try to learn more about business stuff. Your information are poor.

And how has Logitech sponsoring you affected their sales? Zilch. They are paying you something for nothing. Yes, that is a great premise to base pro gaming growth on.

I am not saying you are wrong to take what you can get. Hey, free mice. But that a hardware company sends out a few mice and T-shirts have very little relation to the issue of Pro-Gaming at all. If that is what it takes for something to be Pro, sure then Pro gaming have a bright future. I was actually talking about something different then a T-shirt here. I thought that was fairly obvious.

Oh, and it goes without saying. I am not familiar with your well known gaming community. If I was it wouldn't affect my decision next time I buy a mouse.

As for the last part. I have no doubt multi-player will grow in the future. But I also realize that most people do it to enjoy themselves and only a few sad of us care about others doing it.

Man, you seems like know exactly NOTHING about marketing and how those things work.

Well, beats pretending everyone will buy a certain brand of mouse just because some NiP player uses them. No one I know act like that. Sure people take advice on buying hardware, but they trust their friends much more then they trust some guy who got a free logitech T-shirt. That is for sure.

"Well, beats pretending everyone will buy a certain brand of mouse just because some NiP player uses them"
people do that

A few stupid people do that. They also brag about being stupid on the internet when they triumphantly declare "I HAVE THE SAME MOUSE AS HEATON". OF course, there are also people that bought that Vacuumcleaner/haircut machine on the Home Shopping Network. So there are stupid people in the world, big news. Do i think they will make a noticable difference to Logitech/MS, nope.

The sponsors provide sponsorship because they make money. Repeat sponsors obviously know they are making money. Your article was good but you know little/if anything about advertising. You have to understand that this world is saturated with people and if one person out of a million buys your product you will still be filthy rich.

Yup, swedish 14 year old wannabes

but they trust their friends much more then they trust some guy who got a free logitech T-shirt.
--------------------------
>>that's true, but if only friends are telling you about logitech, you may think they are dead. I normally get the idea of a (electronical) company being almost dead (or very inactive) if I don't hear anything about them in publicity. Is it advertisement, sponsorship, just a small poster on an event (sport event or whatever).. this are things that tell me they are alive and i mostly only buy products of alive companies :> as they have more money (all in my opinion.. nothing must be the thruth but it's how it works in my (a customer) mind) to get on with technology...

my 2c (with hopefully not too bad english :/)

I would actually imagine logitech have sold mouses in the tens of thousands due to pro gaming and not even realised it.
i myself have brought 5 or so logitch mouses over the years and many ppl i know also buy logitech mouses. What better consumer can they target when it comes to the selling of mouses than gamers. The reward logitech get for sponsoring a clan is very small and they realise this but there outgoings are insignificant.

Lol I bought an expensive mouse to me "more pr0" so think that it increases sales :p

(some good gamers recommended it to me so I bought it :P)

nail on the head

BTW, I don't think you should write that the CPL has made no revenue if what you say is based on assumptions - or do you know for sure?

The so disliked CPL is growing all the time (in terms of prize money and stuff), you need a bigger and bigger turnover for that.

I am not saying the CPL doesn't have a bigger budget now then what they had a few years ago. All I am saying is that the amount the actual gamers have provided of it is exactly the same - zero.

this is utter bollox

The CPL has a huge amount of money in the bank. I'm talking millions. I don't know where you got that it doesn't.

What has that to do with anything? If I give you a huge amount of money does that make you a cash cow? For the CPL to be some sort of viable organisation in the long run they have to find a way to actually generate income themselves. Or do you think they will have a constant inflow of sponsor money that will increase annually? What does the CPL do to make money themselves?

Yeah, but no money in the world will convince a generation of adults that watching a bunch of teenagers shoot rockets at each other or hide behind boxes is more interesting than a sitcom.

talking about where the cpl will be in 2/3 years is kinda silly, angel said it would take 10 years to form something resembling pro gaming, whether the exact time is right I don't know but at least they aren't trying to rush things.

Look at skate boarding for example, it now has some big tournaments and such (the X-games for example), but its taken a long time for it to get there, it has some tv coverage (at least here in the UK its not great, but some shows at 1am are a lot better than nothing), over here the number of skaters has really increased recently and there are now realated computer games. It may never become as huge as football or any mainstream sport but it now has enough mainstream presence to be able to make some money.

Why couldn't this happen to computer gaming? there may never be huge numbers of pro gamers, but if the number of people with decent net connections goes up, and in time a far higher percentage people will have had experience with gaming (at the moment there are some adults picking it up and some who have been gaming since the 80s, but not masive numbers, however people who grew up in the 90s will be a lot more open ideas like this).

anyway I don't know how big it will be, or if it will just fade away, but assuming that society won't change and it will fail just because it hasn't made it yet is a pretty poor argument.

I think pro gaming probably does have a future but I'd be suprised if it becomes simply a scaled up version of what we have now. My bet is it will involve games consoles and place less emphasis on the spectator.

you'd be interested to read my interview with angel munoz perch.
he states quite the opposite :D
i'll publish the interview and my article on the future of pro-gaming when it runs on 3dactionplanet.

No way, post it here :D

i'll link it :P

fred thats bollox about the sponsorship. how many lame threads do u see on sogamed etc, saying 'HeatoN, what mouse u use?' etc. So many people buy their hardware base on the pros, just like football boots etc.

you have a point.

Looking on the bright side...

I think this just goes to show how little you actually know about the whole deal Fred (oh remember, that's just my opinion, can i write a column on it?).

And on the word of sponsors, Logitech for example as someone said earlier. All Logitech have to do is provide 5 people with a mouse, then the gamers are satisfied, thats what... $200-$300 max. Now if that clan are well known, and do impress people when playing them, then people will go to thier websites, and look what hardware they use etc as people, and might think about buying a Logitech mouse. All Logitech need to return the effort they put in is 5-6 people to do this and be interested in buying a mouse, but in reality, if the team does well, it could be hundreds or even thousands that end up deciding to try a Logitech mouse after seeing this team play so well. Take NiP for example, how many people have gone out and bought the same kind of mouse pad AND mouse or one similar after thier fame, LOADS.

It would be almost the same with any other peice of hardware, if people are sponsored by a graphics card company for example, and the gamers are given the very latest cards in the range, that's only a 5 card giveaway loss for the company, and out of it they get reviews of the card to impress people, publicity doubles from the reviews as well, and the same thing as before will happen, when people get impressed by this team they will look at thier hardware and sponsors, if they then think "maybe a little more fps will help me get better" or after reading thier reviews of the cards on thier sites and being impressed, they could decide to go out and buy one. 10 people later the company has already doubled the effort they put into sponsoring the team, sure 10 cards isnt much money wise, but its still already returned the money they put into the sponsorship, and like i said earlier, in time the sponsorship could gain them an extra hundred or thousand buyers from this effect.

Sure not just any old clan will get as wonderful results with this method, but the top clans will, and it's the top teams of football etc that get the best sponsorship and are the most successful, so where the hell is the downfall to that at all?

You need to look beyond the point of the 100 odd people you know on irc Fred and look at the big picture of hundreds of thousands to many millions that you DONT know.

And so what if the CPL isn't making any money from the gamers at the moment, IT DOESN'T NEED TO. It has all the funds it needs for now and possibly the next 5 odd years, so why put extra pressure on the whole ordeal by asking for money it simply doesn't need? It will start making money when it counts, when the sport goes pro and people will be willing to pay for it, or at least they will have some sort of permanent deals for themselves. But why risk the entire "project" _at this stage_ by asking for money that would just be sitting in thier banks with what they already have.

They're not in it to make millions for themselves, the CPL isn't meant to be a proper company that makes millions from turnovers, it's simply meant to be a step to getting pro gaming going so that it becomes a sport and then everyone can take it from there, that's all it is, so don't look at it from the wrong angle. Think of it as more of a sponsored volunteer service to help people (the gaming scene) out than a full money making business.

Actually, I think YOU are overestimating the number of people who buy the same mouse and mousepad as Heaton. Sure, there are probably a few (and the ones that do most likely have the personality to post about it on the community pages). If it really had such an impact Kärna wouldnt have gone bankrupt, would they? Mind you, we are still talking about the small pool of 3000-4000 people. Any of this will never reach outside that. And will that have any impact on the profitability of Logitech or MS? Of course not, we are a fringe to a fringe market here.

As for graphics cards. I doubt just because Heaton use a ASUS GF4 Ti, people will rush out to buy a new ASUS card. Eventually many gamers will end up with a GF4 Ti card of course but that hardly is the same thing. Gamers always want to be on the edge performance wise. And of course, why are so many gamers using AMD when it is Intel that is sponsoring CPL? All that goodwill, wanting to play on the same hardware as the "Pros" doesn't mean that much when the gamers do a quick price-performance check.

The reason the CPL aren't asking the gamers to provide any money is because they KNOW it will not work. We are in it because it is a free lunch. The second it stops being free you will see interest plummet. Sure, they can delay it for a few years, counting on sponsors to keep them floating. That doesn't take anyone any closer to it becoming pro. Just maintains the Status Quo, which is exactly what the CPL have been doing for 5 years.

"You need to look beyond the point of the 100 odd people you know on irc Fred and look at the big picture of hundreds of thousands to many millions that you DONT know."

I don't really know where they are. I can tell you one thing with certainty tho. They WONT be following the CPL this coming weekend. It will be the same old group, minus a few old face and plus a few new. The CPL will once again interpret hits on HLTV servers as viewers as to give an illusion that many people care. You would have thought that switching to a game that was 10 times bigger then Q3 online would do the trick, but it has hardly had any effect on interest. Where are they going to go next? I do think MS Hearts has more players then CS. Might be a good idea. Believe me, the 100 people I know in IRC are more likely to be interested in this whole gig then any other group on the face of this planet.

So the completely maxed out HLTV limits to the last CPL finals means that only a few thousand actually WANTED to watch it? There are millions of people that play CS, and i bet at least half of these would be interested in watching some CPL matches _if they knew about them_, as the majority of gamers still dont know about the CPL and dont know about most big clans, that's where the whole idea behind the CPL comes in, publicity, getting it known to the masses. We're not so much talking about getting it known to people who don't play CS who would "rather watch a sitcom" (as someone said earlier), we're talking about getting it known to all the CS players there are that are interested in the game. And that number is already far past the 3000-4000 you THINK, and the idea is to get as many of the MILLIONS that play the game to get into the CPL. As someone said on UKT, there were hundreds of thousands of people "watching" the last CPL finals either through irc score bots, refreshing web pages, or HLTV, *ever* so slightly more than your idea of a few thousand.

As for the statement about graphics cards, half of the idea comes from the reviews that the team would give the card, people like to be reassured that what they're buying is what they're looking for, yes they wouldnt just go out and buy an ASUS if they saw "hardware used: ASUS GF4 Ti4600", but they might do if they read 6 reviews on the card all talking about it's features and saying how good it was.

So what if the CPL KNOW they wouldnt make any money if they asked for it, that still isn't the point, that's not what the CPL is about. They're counting on sponsors because that's what the whole idea is, get sponsors interested in the gaming scene, and get publicity for both the sponsors and the idea of pro gaming. And that is exactly what it's succeeding in, it may take 10 years, but it's doing it slowly and surely. No sport has taken off in a few months, everything takes time.

I finally bothered to register.

Yes, of course I am crazy to take the actual interest in the last years for a basis of an estimation of the interest instead of starting to dream about millions.

"As someone said on UKT, there were hundreds of thousands of people "watching" the last CPL finals either through irc score bots, refreshing web pages, or HLTV, *ever* so slightly more than your idea of a few thousand."

I hope you are not serious here. The number in irc was as always 1000-2500. The number on HLTV the same, perhaps a few more. If you interpret HLTV server hits as viewers you of course get a much higher figure, but that would only fooling yourself of course. So where does the rest of the hundreds of thousands come in? Nowhere. Just because you get a lot of pagehits on pages where results are stored doesn't mean that every user only visits once. Unless of course you equate reading the result after the game as "watching the finals" of course. It most likely means people are refreshing very often to find results. Even with very optimistic figures you have to draw the conclusion that for a worldwide "sport", interest is very very low. So you are saying the problem is that the CPL aren't reaching the masses. Can you tell me what they have done differently to reach all the millions this time around? I see no difference. Just maintaining the Status Quo and maintaining the illusion this is actually going somewhere. Hell, there are even fewer Euro clans this time around then last summer CPL. Wasn't this supposed to be some sort of World championship thingy? Where is the progress? In what way do you feel this summer CPL is a step forward from last years?

Oh, hate to burst your bubble here. I don't care if you are registred or not.

"With the HLTV for the final, every proxy was full, the limit to how many people could view the final was filled.
There are gonna be more people at the event itself that his predicted 3k-4k."

Hmm, let's see, restrictions on HLTV are what a few hundred to a thousand max? So only that many people could actually watch the game, oh yes that means that ONLY that many WANTED to watch the game. There might not have been many people you saw in irc channels with scorebots, but what else are they meant to do if HLTV is maxed out completely and that's the only way they can actually WATCH the game, fair enough if people dont want to sit at irc all day waiting for a new line to come up instead of watching the proper game in HLTV, but that means nothing. I barely known anyone who would bother sitting at a TV for 2 hours "watching" teletext to get by-the-second updates on a football game score if there was no channel showing the actual game, if they cant WATCH it properly, then they usually dont bother and just check the results after its over. So that means absolutely nothing with this effect. If a limitless HLTV was possible, there would be MANY more people watching the game properly.

Let's say, the next premiership finals is only broadcasted on 1 channel on a new set top box that costs Ł200 just for that channel. How many people would actually go out and buy the box just to watch the finals compared to how many would stick a radio on to listen to the finals instead (Qradio or whatever it is anyone? - v few people know about this, and it's not the best of services when compared to professionally covered sports is it, but oh wait, that could change if gaming was pro.) and how many would stick a news program on from the tv or radio every now and then (not possible for gaming) to check the scores, or go to teletext every half an hour to check the scores (how many people do this with gaming websites, oh wait.). So because so few people can actually watch the game, does that mean that it's unpopular, or just unfortunately not available to the masses? Also we're talking about peoples internet connections, people on 56k wouldn't really want to join a laggy HLTV server to watch it now would they, when compared to a TV which is a standardised perfectly fine uninterrupted broadcast. Things will change in this area though as gaming does progress, so it's still barely a hold back, just that very little can be done about it at this stage.

The CPL can only do so much, organise the event, get all the best clans going, and get sponsors interested. They cant do miracles like magic up a TV station to broadcast the event so that limitless numbers of people CAN watch it. Not at this stage while the game's still "un-pro" as it were anyway. I think the completely maxed out HLTV was quite impressive considering that was the only way for people to watch the game no?

And CPL aren't doing anything different this year? How about just in the UK, how many pre-qualifiers were there this year with local teams getting involved and then a large final qualifying event that was MUCH better hosted than last year, compared to last year where there was just the 1 qualifying event in the UK?

And on the note of sponsorship, with hardware, we're talking about companies that make millions losing about $50-1000 max in sponsoring a clan, if it works out and they make some profit, wonderful, if it doesnt work out, they're hardly losing anything at all are they, so it's not as drastic as you make out.

If the CPL were competent and really believed that there were millions out there just waiting for someone to give them the word, and then everyone would follow the CPL they would:

* increase the HLTV spaces 10-fold.

* actually manage to get the word out.

If they aren't able to that, they are apparantly incompetent at spearheading this pro gaming thing, wouldn't you say? But sure, in 5 years time someone else will have fixed everything and pro gaming is a reality.

I would say the number of people following the thing in irc is a good estimate of how many people want to watch it in HLTV. Sure the ip's will be pasted on some pages etc but if you only see 2000 people in the irc channels this weekend, I don't think you can really draw the conclusion that there are 98 000 more just sitting around waiting for someone to put the ip on a site somewhere. That is not how it works. And having a few thousand wanting to watch it worldwide is of course impressive numbers one perspective. But not if you imagine this to be a big thing.

And while it is great that you had qualifiers for your autoberth spot in the UK doesn't change the fact that only half as many european clans attend the Dallas event this year compared to last year. That doesn't seem like progress at all, rather the opposite. Last year you also had the fatality car thingy and the NiP-X3 showdown to increase interest. This years CPL seems much more uninteresting on pretty much all fronts.

But there is always next year, eh?

We could sit here arguing this all day, but at the end of it, you don't have any facts, i don't have any solid in-your-face proof, and we'll just have to wait and see how things move on.

The only thing i agree on is that it's insecure because of the relationship between gamers and the games, it won't last long.

Also, if it's going to work, it needs to move away from being Net based, as the UK is reknowned for it's crap connections, and many people (especially ones who play CS for fun and not seriously) are still on narrowband ones, so it makes it kinda hard to watch games over HLTV etc.

There is also a problem with being able to spread the word, as the majority of actual cs players (not top players, the majority) don't even know about any community sites where the news does come across, and some probably don't even check any news sites. Publicity for events and such needs to be improved somehow.

Once word gets out to enough people, and a standardised way is found to broadcast the games, that doesn't require a fast connection or super PC (HLTV may not REQUIRE a good connection to work, but when we're talking about big games with 100's of people on the same HLTV, it does lag.) then they will be able to move on.

Btw, how can you say that the "NiP-X3 showdown to increase interest." when no one knew it was going to happen until it did. How can you say there's nothing nearly as interesting this year, the same can happen this year just with different clans, you don't know until the event happens?

Erm, how on earth did you miss all the months of talking about NiP vs X3 before the event? It was bloody everywhere.

Sorry i must have missed it only looking on 2 CS news sites which just didn't happen to have anything about the NiP-x3 "forecasted" game in particular (one of my last points).

Well, although those that think progaming has a future are valid to all major sports there are today, I think we have to realize that what we are living today is crude reality; worldwide economy is going haywire

<<There are millions of people that play CS>> (c) Shads.

LOL !

I agree. That's what I did... buy a pr0 m0use :D lol

ok who gives one?

Its a game lets all have fun. Why bother arguing about a game.... you frenchmen

I have another beef with the CPL. And that is how quickly gamers will change their game, just because the CPL says one thing.

* In CS the euopeans had gone from MR to CO. Pretty much everyone here agreed that it was much superior. It created a more actionfilled and fun game. Then of course CPL chose MR for the summer event. What has happened in Europe? We have gone back to MR, which according to pretty much all gamers here is a much inferior way to play the game. And it affects loads of clans that don't give a crap about the CPL and will never go to a CPL. CPL says so=gamers bend over.

* Same with the silly special version of CS the CPL used. Most gamers hated it, but when Angel started waving that money around as usual people folded. There was even talk about not calling the bomb a bomb, since it would send the wrong signals to the mainstream. Isn't it obvious that this organisation is not about gaming. They have the money, you will blindly change your game after what they want.

* CS 1.3 vs CS 1.4. Hell, the CPL even had a poll where 1.3 won. Did the CPL care? Of course not, they went with 1.4.

If the CPL would want to change the weapons into painball guns, I am pretty sure you would moan about it for a while then say "of course, Angel". If any other organisation would suggest what the CPL have made you do in the last year, you would simply say "screw you".

CPL organise and run thier own events, it's up to them what they do.

Changing the name of a few things doesn't affect the gameplay. Changing the guns would affect gameplay, so people wouldn't play it, unless they liked the new gameplay. It's not a case of "CPL say this so we do it", it's a case of "CPL suggest this and we don't mind so we still carry on". If people were THAT bothered about playing 1.3 over 1.4 surely no one would go to the event, and surely everyone would still be playing 1.3 now to FORCE the CPL to use 1.3 from a public majority (people can vote, but what they do is different.), or just play 1.3 still because they like it so much and they're DISGUSTED with 1.4, and yet that hasn't happened.

You are illustrating my point perfectly. Going from MR to CO is the single largest change of gameplay you could make in CS. Despite hating MR, the europeans have now changed back to it.

Of course the CPL can do what they want. It just brings out the most spineless behaviour in gamers and shows the nature of the whole pro gaming thing in its true light. Lets not call them weapons in the future but Metallic cone dispensers. That might go over well with the mainstream.

Firstly, MR instead of CO isn't actually that great a change in my opinion, and no one i knew complained like hell when it was changed over time, and i remember reading an interview with heaton i think it was who just basically said "it's annoying but we'll get used to it", hardly crying his eyes out over a dramatic gameplay change.

Secondly, that's just being stupidly over the top.

Infact, the CPL IS MEANT to be a sponsored event, as it's supposed to be getting the major sponsored interested in pro gaming and the whole gaming scene fullstop, so it really doesn't need to be making it's own turnover or else it would be stabbing itself in the back too. It's all about getting sponsors interested, getting the gamers and top teams together, and getting publicity, it's nothing to do with making millions for itself.

The other point is that clans are very loose arrangements. Members leave clans or join (en masse) other clans with (better) sponsorship. Clans split.

Clans are not businesses, your typical clan leader is 18+ with no background or track record. Would you really want to give a bunch of money to some kid at random?

Yeah, those who sponsored NiP must really feel anxious to dive right back into the wonderful world of gaming.

NiP didn't have a sponsorship deal (nothing significant anyway), that's the main reason they split up, they are mainly LAN players but they couldn't afford to go to major events.

I would love to see players on contract, even if only for 6months or so, with a clause saying you must give certain notice before you leave. that might make it better for sponsorship, at least teams would stay around longer.

i think pro-gaming as it stands is a myth anyhow, just by definition, being a "pro" indicates that you earn your sole living out of what you do, maybe a few 19 yr olds or whatever earn enough "pocket money" to do a few things, and get trips paid for by sponsers, but as a pro, say at 25 years old, you might have to pay off a house, and a car.. look after your mrs etc.. even god forbid *kids*, and as it stands i doubt any of the current "pro" gamers could do this on the grand scale of things.

The same could be said about any sport in the early stages before it actually became serious.

pff..it's obvious. You are just jealous cause ur not a pro-gamer yourself. That's why you wrote this column.

Hate to break it to you, but there are no pro gamers. Sure, Zero4 and fatality won quite a lot of money. But that is it. So you are quite correct in that I am not a pro gamer. There are more people making a living impersonating Barbara Streisand then there are people making a living playing computer games (if you don't count Korea, with Korea it would be a close race).

so why not count Korea? They are a part of the planet we call earth, arent they? It might just be that Korea is far ahead from the rest of the world when it comes to pro-gaming.

Sure lets count Korea. Still doesn't change the situation for the CPL one bit does it? CPL doesn't do anything for Korean gamers and korean gamers doesn't do anything for the CPL.

It does change the ratio of pro gamers vs Barbara Streisand impersonators a bit, since I don't think she really caught on there.

It doesn't have to relate to CPL, it's just an example that pro gaming CAN work.

It is an example that it can work in Korea, nothing more nothing less. I advice you to read the article in Wired (there is a newsitem about it right here on Xsr) It is a great article and also illustrates perfectly why Korea should be treated as the exception rather then the norm.

I didnt say it changes the situation for CPL, now did I? You are really spinning in logical circles that does'nt produce much of a context nor meaning. Arguing for the sake of arguing is pretty patethic, if you had a clear purpose or target for your cynical argumentation it would be valid to argue.

But hey, a nice flame is better then a quick spark...

Hehe, I thought the target of my argumentation was pretty obvious. I also have provided loads of reasons behind my arguing. It is anything but aimless and pointless. Sure, you might not like or agree with the points of course, feel free to argue with them. I even marked them with a * to make it easy for people to argue with them you know. That is the kind of guy I am.

Sure, I chose to present it as a rant instead of writing it as a longer toned down piece with the exact same point. Why is it fun to rant against the CPL? Perhaps for the reason that if I posted this on the CPL forums (with a more respectful tone of course) it would get deleted at once. They are not big on critical voices over there. Plus of course that it is much more fun to write rants rather then long pieces.

Do I think there needs to be critical voices about the whole pro gaming fad? Well, duh. Just look at the first page here. We have a guide on how CS players should go about securing corporate sponsorship (and it probably don't even sound silly to you pro pro gaming guys, right?) right here on the front page. The ND story about a guy leaving because he was cut from the CPL team, and learned about it on a community page was also fun to read. Especially the "managers" comments (unfortunately only in swedish) was bloody hilarious.

Sure you have a structured text with "highlighted" punchlines. Nevertheless your point of views is still a bit blury to me. But I don't really care about anyones view on this matter, I just wanted to bitch some :)

Fred was a player of Marine Core, one of the best European UT CTF Teams of all time, and has won with [MC] the Clanbase CTF Cup which is the highest cup a UT CTF Clan could receive.
[url]http://www.clanbase.com/news_league.php?nid=52388&mid=1408&lid=304[/url]

/m4a

This is crap.

Pro-Gaming is far from a dream. For many, it is happening, and has already happened for a few.
We play games for fun, and sponsors recognise that people keep doing these things, because they enoy it. If you have a shoddy PC, and like to play CS, you will eventually get annoyed, and spend a hundred quid on a new GFX card or something. If the best players use this card, why shouldnt this person who plays for fun use it?

Sponsors get an awful lot out of gaming. Take a look at plantronics for example.

They sponsor(d) NiP, the best in the world, with there DSP 500 headset. They also sponsor the UK team Nocturne as far as i know.

Now, although not many people own this headset cos its v. expensive, they look at it, and see its design. SO they go to the Plantronics web site, and find the Audio 90's.

I can bet at least 60% of people who play games half-serioiusly use the Audio 90's, simple because the design of them is exellent.

What Fred has said is that sponsors are wasting there time, when there not.

Things can only happen for gaming if people support it, and this is what sponsors have realised.

ow many gamers live off prize money purely, and gaming is their only source of substanitial income? i.e are professional -any?

I totally agree with Fred, you're all living in a fantasy world, if pro-gaming becomes a reality in europe and america, it will be for a select few, the very best, the crem de la crem.. not the masses, no0t even if your quite good, it just doesn't happen like that.

The most popular sport in the UK is football, and what's happened, only the premier league is financially secure at this moment in time.. why? because ITV digital went bust, as not enough people wanted to watch division 1 - 3 to make it a viable venture.. they put in a lot of money and got little return, they went bankrupt.. :/ A lot of professional footballer's are going to have to consider leaving the profession, this is the one that gets most coverage/backing and viewing, so what hope has counter-strike got? not much to put it bluntly.. once sponsors realise they are gettin very little out of their venture's they will pull out, the number that do sponsor team's at the moment is very small, and as gainward have said "it is largely experimental".

Now this is football! CS i'm sorry to say, is far less popular, and since the fanbase is no-where near the size i very much doubt pro-gaming will become a reality for many... if it does for anyone outside korea :/

he's just stating his opinion and suggesting all the people here are probably wrong and it will never take off. Well I take an interest and I'm gonna sit tight and see how it turns out.

He might be "just stating his opinion", but he's also decided to post it on a public column made by himself at his own will, so he can expect replies/discussions/arguments that may go against "his opinion".

The only issue i agree with on this thread is the one that games don't stick around, sure CS has lasted a long time, but it won't last many more years and as soon as something remotely better comes along most of the community would change i guess, or unless the CS team patched the game up a lot and upgraded it, but they just get moaned at for doing that. The only down fall to having gaming as a pro sport is that it's morely in the game developers' hands than any sponsor or player. Which doesn't make it very secure.

now im 26 (ahhh pls dont delete my account :P) and i know quite some guys over 20 which play games and with whom i been in clans.
rite now im in a clan with some1 who is 31 and works as an IT-consultant.
so from my experience its not only teenagers interested in games and also folowing news, watching demos, etc...

teenagers are also a great demographic group to market things. watch all the success boygroups have, and their CDs are mainly bought by 15 year old girls.
parents buy them computers and games (hell at lot of 16 year old boys i know have top notch computers, much better than mine). so o think hard- and software companies, isps, etc have a great interest there.
and look at the example of golf, for a sport launching his success only with golf related companies as sponsors.

so i think its possible. but only time will show what will happen

Companies would sponsor clans more, if it would be "safer".

Would you give 5x gfx cards

a) To teenager that says "hi im from this Clan X and we play pc games on internet vs. other clans" and only guarantee that this guy just doesnt go and sell those 5 cards is his word. And after you give him those gfx cards you wont hear him again until GF5 is out.

or

b) 25-30y businessman who brings lots of figures etc. and sells you the idea of sponsoring "this team that plays eSports in a big competitions that have big money prizes". And behind this team is a company to bring trust and stability.

Err, that doesn't really make sense, top teams already do (b) to a certain extent.

Well yeah mTw and SK are the only ones I think are doing b)

Compare that to the amout of clans that seek for sponsors.

mtw and SK might be the only teams who do that _in germany_

arguably, those are the teams with the most effective structure in the world. how many other eu/us clans could send teams to the cpl latin america events along side the european and us events? (SK) and what other clan gets their main sponsorships on paper as one year contracts and will work months in advance to secure a new sponsor for the next year if needed? (mTw)


there are plenty of teams with good sponsorship deals to an extent, but not many come close to those clans.

Intresting debate

conclusion: "time will tell" ?

what cpl needs is a way to broadcast advertises using hltv :p

Nice article, too bad it is totally senseless trying to get your POV over to the pro Pro-Gaming guys. They won't listen. No facts or hard figures will ever change their grand dream of becoming the next whoever-it-is-that-is-currently-making-money-off-gaming. It's been like this for the last six years and it's probably always going to be like this as long as the audience is in or barely out of their teens. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

To anybody supporting CPL: still remember the disasters from the past? I do. You believe them once that this was a "one-time issue that will never happen again". You get skeptical on the second "issue" that comes up. After the third time you realize that the CPL is just a whole pile of PR bull that somehow survived the dotcom crash (too bad they didn't IPO ... that would've been great fun).

BTW, I'm still waiting for the CPL stadium that is supposed to be ready real soon now (check here or here for official CPL statements on this).

btw, #49 i loved your comparison: "... teenagers are also a great demographic group to market things. watch all the success boygroups have, and their CDs are mainly bought by 15 year old girls." -- i'm just waiting for the 15-year old girls buying CS because some pimp-infested 18 year old g33k is playing that thing.

Ah, enough ranting. Back to my cave. See you all in the CPL stadium next year!

There are people who think they know how things will turn out and there are those who make them turn out how they turn out. I am off to Dallas without any "stupid sponsor" helping me out or paying a large sum myself, those who make things happen for themselves are the only ones who get anywhere. Those who don't or can't just sit around being bitter (see the second line of this column)

the holy graal Mr Munoz is chasing

I must have missed that x-files episode.

Have fun at the LAN. Might be prettier then the one in your hometown, but its still just a LAN. And I can guarantee you that a smile is firmly planted on my face:)

Oh, I think when they cancel X-files for "This week in the CPL" Mr Munoz will have found what he is looking for. Mind you, no bombs and terrorists of course, but Team A and a communications device.

Why didn't you just call the thread "Excuses to argue and talk bollucks" Fred?

It was copywrited. I think my title is rather catchy though.

Whoever said something about gaming being 'safer' for sponsors, thats just stupid.

Sponsors will only give out 5 GFX cards if there is stability.

Most teams have to sign some sort of contract, or have been together so long, that they trust each other enough to send the card back when the clan splits up.

Sponsors dont just hand stuff out, it is done 'professionally' to some extent

Great piece of work Fred.
This is what I like to see in a column... Provocing and raising a lot of people to give their say about it.
Well done.

ALL TIME PLAYERS: 160,743,000
ACTIVE PLAYERS: 17,119,907
PLAYERS TODAY: 885,534
PLAYING NOW: 105,944

Stats taken from pczone from gamespy.
they r the stats for about 4 games.
http://www.pczone.co.uk/
click csrankings

I am not sure if I understand exactly what your point is. If you want to point out the fact that loads of people play online games, I agree.

My point is that only a tiny tiny fraction of the 9,296,263 CS players (don't know how it works with those stats, might be 9,296,263 different nicks used for all I know) in the last 31 days will follow this weekends CPL event. Most of them don't know and don't care. Do you think 99%+ of footballers would ignore the World Cup final? Competitive gaming has always been a very small niche and gaming in itself is a huge thing.

No it simply represnts the possibilitys but your pesermistic way of thinking wouldnt understand that.

Great column Fred (even though I don't quite agree, but that's what a column is all about!).

I really don't know if pro-Gaming will be successful in the mainstream, let's just wait and see! But I do think that sponsoring top players DOES have a commercial effect for the company. Just think about how many players must have bought a Boomslang mouse just because they saw fatality playing with it (and no this does not have anything to do with how the company went down anyway, their mice just weren't good enough in the long run)

let's just hope that gamers can leech off of corparate stupidity for as long as possible :)

rofl, lol at 3k max watchin this. n1 fred, great 'facts'. try 30k at one time. many many more demos etc

How come I have a hard time taking someone serious who starts a sentence with "rofl, lol"? My advice to you is to check irc this weekend. How many do you see there? More or less then the last time around?

Yeah coz i trust how many people you can personally count at one time looking in a channel to a survey done properly through bots and such over a broader system.

oh yea, did u know that intel pumped 40million dollars into cpl? dont u agree that that represents a lot of money lol? and do u think market leaders like intel would pump 40 mill stupidly?

Did you even bother to read my colum? I know that Intel is pumping money into the CPL. Duh. How does that change anything in the long run. They will still just be a lan organizer that spends "someone elses money" on a few LANs a year. We already KNOW that the CPL are pretty good at spending someone elses money, but I can tell you - there are quite a few that has that skill. When will the CPL start generating money themselves? Where will that money come from? (I will let you in on a secret here, it will have to come from YOUR pocket).

Of course you can be naive and think that in the future we will have a professional league, where people actually live on gaming, completely sponsored by Intel. Won't happen, but it is a nice dream isn't is.

I know this is way late... but fred you say that the money has to come out of OUR pockets, the gamers' pockets. Why exactly is this?

How does television succeed? I mean, network television, not cable, not satellite. They get money from advertising. Companies pay millions of dollars for marketing demographics, then spend money on the actual ad time, on the mere hope that people will see their ad and let themselves be influenced into buying the product. TV stations don't make a DIME from the viewers picking up their broadcasts via antenna. The CPL (and pro gaming as a whole) is functioning on the same principle, although it is still building its audience (much like TV was in the 50s and 60s).

You say that only morons would buy a product that a top clan uses. Except, millions of people every day around the world are spending their money on products that sports stars endorse... even things like sunglasses and clothing lines. Things that they don't use to enhance their performance. But the idea of a gamer seeing a top clan using Logitech Dual Optical mice and thinking that they might be getting a performance edge from it is ludicrous to you. You are quite the marketing genius.

You are right that the CPL is built on hopes and dreams, and that without Intel's (and other sponsors) backing it will utterly fail. But the idea is that as pro gaming gets more stable and established, it will be able to reach more and more gamers... and through them, it will reach their friends that DON'T play games.

How many of us have had friends over and played a game while they watched? How many of your friends have ever said "holy shit thats cool as hell man" after you owned a team with a few well placed AK bursts? Very few of my friends play games, and those that do refuse to play with me because they don't like to lose (not that I blame them)... but they still enjoy watching me play. They grasp the basic essential strategies to CS without ever actually playing themselves.

It's really not too far off that gaming finally finds its way into the mainstream. Will CPL be the engine that pushes it to the next level? Perhaps, perhaps not. But in 20-25 years the CPL will be looked upon as where it really started, win or lose.

that's why it's called column...

"that's why it's called a column..." and this is why you can add comments, to comment on the column. Well done, you now understand the basics of the site.

"Would you like to have a spokesperson saying "FU MORON" to other players on public servers?"

lol, I don't think this person has ever played a sport or seen sports before in his/her life. People say this in professional sports AAALLLL the time and not only in public, non-showcased games, but also in the games that are televised and watched all over the world.

Surely you could cluster some servers together to load balance the HLTV? I can't see it being that difficult to do!!

-zoziwx

They already did that partially didn't they ? But it still wasn't enough.

good one zoziwx good to see peoples comments on how to make this competition more accessable to the masses.
Yes there are masses even if they dont all fly to america to compete or join hltv to view the games live.
I download the demos after the competition imho watching 2 well cordinated teams go at it far exceeds the lure of crap sitcoms.
Although I dont agree with all of mikes article, good job sparking debate on this issue, maybe with it being discussed action can be taken to make "pro-gamming" more accessable.
The benifits of these large LAN's seems to have been overlooked, seeing these clans in action really helps up and comming clans with tactics and co-ordination.
My clan made it to the top of a local ongoing comp (if only briefly) partly due to watching a demo of NiP and X3 playing train.
Comps do have uses people can make money from gaming, it wont happen over night, it might never happen at all, I did have a point I'm sure of it.

agree

I think what he said about the pro gamers not caring about pro gaming wasnt very smart

Why do CS clans go 2 weeks before an event to train 24/7?

A lot of people do care, but the author doesn't know that cause he's never been at the top.

LOL, training 2 weeks 24/7. Pull the other one. I'll bet I can make up stuff too, if I think for a moment.

Counterpoints to fred that do NOT qualify as valid:

"you're just jealous because you're not a pro-gamer".

Ignoring the debate over the word, nowhere has Fred said he was jealous of anything, Neither am I. I make good money at an honest job. I drive a Volkswagen. I get a paycheck every 2 weeks. It has real money on it. Am I jealous of someone who gets a FRACTION of that money for blowing thousands of hours taking a game "seriously"? No. Do I consider the amount of time I've put into it a waste? No. I've had some good times with friends, and that is that that matters to me.

Good for intel if they want to put "40 million" or whatever you claim into the CPL. They see the large amount of AMD cpus being used in gaming because AMD is kicking their poor butts in the home gaming market. Of course they want to defeat AMD in this area, thus the sponsoring. They'd like to offer the P4 as a "gaming cpu". Will it work? I doubt it, but only time will tell.

Next argument: "you know nothing about marketing, Fred".

Well I happen to know a thing or two about marketing, having had to both take courses and effectively sell nonexistent product features to clients. The bottom line? Companies will follow the wave of potential cash revenue. If they see it's turning, they will follow. And with them, their money will go. Do you HONESTLY think Angel has an idealistic vision? I feel very sorry for you. He wants your money. He wants fame. He flames people who disagree with him, resorting to childish insults (if you don't believe me, look for the old CK3 article on what the CPL has become, then read Angel's comments in reply...stupid and childish).

Do you still honestly think people will pay money to see people sitting on their ass clicking buttons, their faces open mouthed and glazed? Much better, do you think there will be money to pay them regularly? Look no further than paintball, which was supposed to be the "next big sport" a number of years ago. Many of my friends back in the day would follow paintball teams, buy hundreds of equipment, etc. And now painbtall is a national sport, right? (that's sarcasm, in case missed it).

Things you need for a sport: athleticism. Whether you're throwing a touchdown pass or shooting a 3 pointer, you must posess some innate natural talent to excel at sports. Video games are merely proportional to the amount of time you spend.
Consistency: on a baseball field, it is always roughly 90 feet to first base. Gravity is 9.8 m/s^2. Bats must be solid and made of wood. Players must wear certain equipment. How can you consider video gaming a sport, when the fundamental aspect changes every year? It's akin to changing the baseball field into pear shape, making the players walk on their hands, and spectators throw the ball into play.
Participants: Someone claimed "every" athlete says "FU". Well, how many "sports" have 90%+ of their athletes under 18? Would you listen to a child tell you what brand of video card to buy? I'd much rather rely on proven, technical sites such as anandtech and toms hardware to help me decide what to buy than some monitor tanned kid who writes in half sentences and claims "gg this owns omfg kthx". Sure some people suck up and ask Heaton or whatever which mouse he uses - there is always room for stupid people who will buy whatever you tell them. Children are a fickle market, and they all have short attention spans. Plus, they are pretty much dependent on mommy and daddy to buy them things. The sad thing is, many MANY gamers I've seen go to the CPL have wealthy, negligent parents who think throwing money at junior will be a substitute for getting off their lazy duffs. I know if I said "I'm going to a video game tourney in texas!" when I was 16 or so (many moons ago), my parents would have laughed at me and told me to go back to doing my homework so I could get into a decent college. The world has enough problems with kids skipping school to play excessive basketball/football so they can "make it to the big time". Do we really need kids dropping out of school playing video games because they see the false lure of money? At least the ones playing basketball are getting exercise.


Overall, I am reminded of a funny comic I saw (stop me if you remmeber this one). It was of a kid playing nintendo and parents dreaming of personal want ads for "professional nintendo player needed. $100,000 plus a Porsche". It was entitled "hopeful parents". The idea was to present a farsical vision of parents hoping their kid's nintendo playing amounted to money.

It was a JOKE, a comic, a funny unrealistic fantasy.

How horrifying to see that people now re-enact that cartoon by envisioning children with thousands of dollars in their pockets for gaming. At LEAST put it into a college fund if they're not 18.

A final thing about supposed "e-sports": barriers to entry. A sport MUST have barriers to entry. That's why I can't go out and pick up a basketball and be Michael Jordan in 3 weeks. I never will be. That's why he gets paid the big bucks (well, that and his Nike commercials). However, people look up to the amazing things he has done in his life. Try to apply the same example to the CPL. The best and the nearly best players are only separated by time spent in the game playing and "practicing". There is very little, if any innate "unique" talent to hand eye coordination and reflexes.

Heck, let's throw another barb in here specific to the CPL: continuity! How many seasons did mj lead the Bulls to the NBA championships? Had to be at least 5 in a row. Now go back to the CPL. There have been totally different "champions" every year. No clan even stays together more than a few months, if that. What's the point?

Fred, perhaps the CPL is considering purchasing "Pro Player Stadium" from the Miami Dolphins? ;) *rim shot*.

But seriously, who knows, perhaps this will all work. After all, who would have predicted the success of the backstreet boys, the pet rock, and Whoopi Goldberg? People will buy any crap you want if you inundate them with it, convince them all their friends will have it, and that they need it too. That's marketing, for the guy who claimed he knew it all earlier. Maybe in a few years we'll hear children talking about playing games for money, winning fortunes, and being the envy of all the grade school girls. More likely than not, I envision that this will do nothing more than churn out a legion of kids with no social skills, poor health, and one very rich former stockbroker laughing all the way to the bank.

-Rav

That column on Shackes? about the the CPL was great. It was a good discussion of some of the giant hurdles with this whole thing. Such as control, underage players and players not being in a legal capacity to sign contracts.

Well said man. I dont even need to say anything in this post other than that. :-)

My addition to this column would be the fact that a "Proffesional" is expected to cover ALL his needs from his proffesion. That means paying taxes, car, family, kids etc.

The gaming community is simply very young for this. Ask youself, whats the oldest player you know?

Games come and go as time goes by.
To those that compare e-sports to fotball and basketball dont forget that these sports are almost 100 years old! Computer games have been popular only the past 2 decades.

Only time will tell what will be the outcome of this.

I liked the column because i am getting really tired of all the people showing themselfs off for beeing "pros".

If ya cant live the "rest of your life" doing that d00d, then you are NOT a professionnal.

damn no1 seems to read my repleies.. only coz ur friends are only 15 year old boys playing this doesnt mean all gamers (also involved in clan or some other form of organized playing and following news, watching GTV and demos) are 15 too!!!!!

so here my old post again
now im 26 (ahhh pls dont delete my account :P) and i know quite some guys over 20 which play games and with whom i been in clans.
rite now im in a clan with some1 who is 31 and works as an IT-consultant.
so from my experience its not only teenagers interested in games and also folowing news, watching demos, etc...

teenagers are also a great demographic group to market things. watch all the success boygroups have, and their CDs are mainly bought by 15 year old girls.
parents buy them computers and games (hell at lot of 16 year old boys i know have top notch computers, much better than mine). so o think hard- and software companies, isps, etc have a great interest there.
and look at the example of golf, for a sport launching his success only with golf related companies as sponsors.

so i think its possible. but only time will show what will happen

no they really do

gx, 3d, and rs all went to the same house in dallas on the 8th to practice for cpl

cpl is the 20th

so saying pro gamers dont care is a blind statement

Because they want to win money? Which of course isn't a contradiction with anything I have said.

If the greatest team in the world can break up and spread among several other clans just because they feel like it, or just because they lose one game or whatever, and in the process leave their existing sponsors hanging in mid-air without any real consequence - then "pro gaming" is a rather unsafe bet.

I know a lot of spotty CSers now call themselves managers and think they are real businessmen, but pretty much everything I read from them indicates that they are in general clueless about pretty much everything. Sure, on some level it is probably a giant victory to get a free mouse. But when there is no accountability you will see that the sponsors will catch on real soon. Now is probably the time to lure them in since the sponsors have the panic of not wanting to miss the next big thing. Once they catch on it will dry out. Clanhopping teens are still only clanhopping teens, even if you dress them up in sponsored T-shirts.

Sponsers do care... when gamers, who buy the sponsers goods, here that the top players are using certain equipment eg. some new gadget for their mice or something, people are going to buy it.

The growth in the internet byitself is enough to guarentee that the CPL and PROGAMING will grow, look at how many people had the internet 5 years ago... how far has all this come? This is just the very beginning.

Also gaming wont just be for 15-20 year olds in the future... you see 30 year olds did not grow up with computers, the internet and games, we are, and I'm sure that atleast most of the 15-20 year olds will still be playing games when they are older, maybe not as much, but thats what they were brought up on.

Spectating just adds some interest into progaming events, people that arnt going will be able to know whats happening and be interested in the event, therefore more sponserships, they get their name heard out more.

I doubt Munoz will ever reach his goal of it being a pro-sport. Sport works on the basis of advertising and selling rights to show the sport to fund it. To be honest, the target audiences are to small in each country to make it worth TV channels showing hours of online gaming. I suppose they could do 'highlights' programmes of about 1/2 hour each day, or at a push an hour.

Computer gaming INTEREST outside of any gaming-related circles is virtually non-existant. My old dad, who loves playing solitaire couldn't give a rat's arse what happens in some world-cs challenge, or any other game championship. The same for everyone else I know who isn't into gaming. This kinda narrows down the target audience doesnt it?

People who do play games play them to enjoy it. A lot of people (maybe 1/2, it's hard to estimate this) who game dont care about the e-sports and pro-gaming. I don't really care that much for the CPL, however it Munoz makes it work then all credit to him. This narrows down potential audiences again. Who the hell would be mad enough to buy rights to show stuff like this to such a small audience? This is the only revenue sports can actually live on. Sponsorship while it does provide money, is no guarantee of income, and can dry up as easily as it can be gained. And as someone pointed out, I doubt that 'clan-sponsoring' really affects sales that much, if at all. I don't give a damn if my mouse company is sponsoring NiP or X3 (I think these have disbanded, but bear with them as examples), I buy a mouse because it works well.

Actually sponsoring the events like Intel do, that will get increased sales - this is worth it. The only time 'clan-sponsorship' will ever be worth it, is if e-sports start getting proper tv-coverage during NON-DEAD hours, ie. before midnight and after 6am. But this will never happen I believe.

i think many spectator sports are successfull , coz it involves things done by this people. this makes them more involved.
car racing... every1 of (unless the 15 year old boy again) has driven a car
every1 has done some physical sport.. basket ball, football.. whatever...

online gaming is something which has just started and many will get involved, so there is a chance it will be something u can easy show and people will understand.

pii_smith

Saying people outside of gaming aren't interested is hardly rocket science is it. I couldnt give a about darts, gold and many other sports, but that doesn't mean that the audience that IS interested should be denied.

And anyway, when i go to buy some trainers, i don't go and watch the latest michael jordan clone ad to see what the pro's are wearing (or JUST advertising most of the time.), i go and look around shops, and buy what's most comfortable or most my style. Even if i was doing a pro sport myself, i wouldn't rely on some ad or a "pro" who's just been slipped 50 grand in his back pocket to say soandso is brilliant. It's the same in sports as it is with gaming sponsorship, the majority wouldn't go along with the sponsors, but SOME do, and that's all the sponsors are bothered with, earning extra money and publicity for giving out very little.

Not all your points are valid, but some damn good ones made. A lot of people treat gaming as a religion with all the unquestioning dumb faith and idolatry that goes with it.

When people realise it's about money, maybe pro-gaming will get somewhere.

I must say that what you written here above is something you've must have got into your mid when a topclan rejected you. Many people is interested of what is happening in the CPL. Even a "Computergeek" friend of mine who never plays cs is interested in whats happening in Dallas this weekend. Many many youngsters and some of us older will watch hltv and sometimes be stunned by the skill of some of the players. I know, cause I've been younger to, that some of this crowd will think: "maybe I would be as good as they are if I sat on a p4". I don't think CPL will die, neider do I think that the sponsors will go away, but they have the right to demand more from the game. Couldn't there be a comercial break when the teams change from t to ct etc. or during a mapchange? This would make the sponsors more profit than just a logo on the homepage.
Hope you've understod what I've been writing, I blame the school for not learning me how to spell correctly :P

Smooth // Sweden

aaaaaaaahahahahaahaaaaaaaahhaaaaaaaaaahahh

I'm sure they got that 45 million for something.

If you hadn't noticed the economy in the US has been shit, might have somethin to do with the prize money stagnating over the past 2 years.

A more appropriate 'reality check' would be for people to realize that they as individuals are unlikely to make any money. But this holds true for sports where athletes get paid millions as well.

Anyways yah, you're wrong, you don't seem to know a lot about the demographics if you think people that age don't spend money. And how many sports operate on that pay per view system that is suggested by your $1 a download charge (I realize some do but you say it like its the only option)? Etc etc.

Basically, you are just leaving out a lot of factors Fred and assuming your statements are 1. Undeniably right and 2. the only variable.

"Anyways yah, you're wrong, you don't seem to know a lot about the demographics if you think people that age don't spend money."

Where did I say that? I am suggesting that 3000 CS youngsters spend as much money as 3000 other youngsters. Considering a target demographic of those numbers worldwide as significant is seriously overestimating their current/future spending capacity. Sure they will buy some stuff, but nowhere in relation to the money that is thrown in their direction at the moment. It wouldn't be the first time companies make a bad call in marketing you know. I do know that the CPL and yourselves make a pretty good job at overestimating how many you are, which is reasonable I guess. Who would want to be part of really small group of fanatics?

Well, good article, but it seems that u cant get to that top and are pissed that the companys dont support u...

This is a FACT. Big companys make alot of money. If logitech should make comercial in a NHL final (for example) they would reach much more people then sponsor a clan like sK.sca, right? But all this wievers of the NHL dont playing computers, and dont need Logitechs Progaming mouse, they will stay happy with the 2 button mouse made by Orgiphus...

The thing when logitech does when they sponsor top clans is the show all the other players in the world..(its not just the 3-4000 people u say that need mouses and other hardware) that , hey, look at our new product its great, the worlds best player uses it!

If the company doesnt make comercials they dont sell as much as if they doenst...And doing comercials like on nip.com or another place gives them a benefith instead of doing it in television...

television is EXPENSIVE
with television u reach viewers who doesnt give a about you progamingmouse...

I study alot of this in my shool. so i know how its work...if the company make a commercial on nip.com the most of the visitors there are interested of progamingmose they might dont buy it, but know that it exsist.

Comercial is just to let the people know that the company exsist...for example, look at Coca-Cola company. From the beginning they made alot of comercials....and who in this day can say that they dont know what coca-cola is? not many...

Try to sell mices at a tractorpulling event...i dont think u sell that many...try to sell tractorpulling accories at cpl, u dont sell that many...u have to be were the costumers are...u dont sell good another way...

Sry for my long post..but i had to write something...=P

/Jock, uses dual optichal. just because i read it was good on some hardware sites...

Of course marketing is important. I am mostly suggesting that the people who follow pro gaming is and will be a very very small market.

And I hope you do realize that a lot of the worlds worst players also use Logitech mouses:)

And what is it with this constant talk that I am bitter about not being in topclans/not being sponsored? You think that actually constitutes a good argument? I don't even play CS, and wouldnt play it if Logitech threw a mouse with purple fluff on it in my direction. I find CS the same way I find its users, slow and boring.

uh oh..I fear this will turn into a "CS sucks" thread soon...

;-)

:-P

I think that in "Pro Gaming" as in many other sports (football, tennis etc.) People are taking the whole concept the wrong way...

The idea is that it is a GAME ! You play it for FUN !

I agree that a pro status should allow for your trips to be paid and a modest salary, but people are far too concerned about making a ton of money and no longer concerned with playing the damn game...

To make anything of it requires PASSION, not a drive to make money...

CPL is doing its best to put Pro Gaming in the mainstream. In certain cases I could see this working, but it needs serious thought, comitment and investment to get everything sorted before you could ever launch it to television or anywhere else.

Would anyone out there seriously pay money to watch a CS match ? No, but then again 20 years ago no one paid to watch football, hell 2 years ago Rugby wasn't really pro...

CPL need a rethink of their strategy, plain and simple.

Oy...

I swear I wish there was a button that would shock a random user on the internet. Nothing life threatening, but something vaguely painful. I would use it on everyone who does not take the 5 minutes to read the previous posts before replying. I would also crank the voltage on anyone who suggests that Fred is jealous that he doesn't get to play for a "top" clan. You should be ashamed of yourselves if that's the best argument you can make.

I will repeat what I think is an important point in why Video Gaming does not have the makings of a sport - Barriers to Entry. None of us will ever be able to play basketball like Jordan or golf like Tiger. However, given enough time and good hardware, you would pretty much be able to give anyone a run for their money in Counter-Strike. MAYBE there is a hand eye coordination advantage, but that's about it. If you don't believe me, why has there been a totally different set of clans each year at the CPL?

Also, remember games only last for a year or two at best. Halflife has been an extreme exception, not the rule. Think of how many hours of entertainment you got out of paying 50, 30, or 15 American dollars for your copy of halflife. In theory that's not good for gaming companies. If they had their way, a game would be amazingly popular for a year or two, then they'd come out with a new one. Why? The same people are available to spend their money again, that's why. So when this new game comes out, the entire "sport" gets redefined. Consistency is a major factor of why this will fail. Arrogance and greed are others ;-)

Also, it's not even a close comparison to say "well 20 years ago nobody paid to watch football". Umm...20 years ago American football was still amazingly popular. People paid and still pay for tickets to watch amazingly skilled, PHYSICALLY TALENTED athletes. Baseball has been an American pasttime for over 100 years. It has been widely viewed and attended for most of this time.

At BEST, watch people play video games is a niche market.

Companys are not stupid they now where to put their money. They know that esports got a very nice future.

"Most gamers don't give a crap about pro gaming, clanwars etc. Would you if you are a big company throw a lot of money into something that only 3000-4000 people WORLDWIDE give a crap about?" <- Your really wrong in this point...

Every big cs site has thousands and thousands visitors each they. Millions of people each they follow the news about clans and stuff everyday. They DO care you can't imagine how many that infact do care. Even some of my friends that I know that don't play much fps games care about thecpl and they buy equipment that they heard "progamers" use, lol even some of my skateboard buddies know about heaton and they don't even have computers :P

You would be surprised about how many that play cs and follow cs news!

Almost all kids(mostly boys :D) that grow up with a computer and internetconnection at home play games such as cs and they will still play and follow it until they get very old.
The older generation of people that did not grew up with computergames are of course not so interested in progaming they are more interested in the stuff they did when they where young such as playing football and other sports. Imagine when the young generation of gamers that play now get to the reach the age of 30+ they will still be kinda active gamers and also the generations after them will be gamers. It is then I believe that gaming will become truly "pro".

//Ryan from sweden :]

hmmm rav, u are underestimating the hand-eye coordination bit. sure cs is largely proportional to the amount of time spent on it. but, and this is a big but, natural talent elevates u above the rest. take i-es for example. liquid has been playing since beta 1. HeatoN has been playing since beta 7 i think. who is the worlds most skilled player?

I wouldn't know. I only hear the name Heaton said by little boys :-P I think he played for Noobs in Pj's though, didn't he?

Sure people might hear about who is good at video games. But that doesn't make them "athletes".

Why would they have to be branded athletes though?

CPL

They can just be branded 'Minor celebrities' then. Like Keith "Cheggers" Chegwin. rofl.

Also, don't confuse time chronologically spent playing with amt of hours spent playing. I know people playing since beta 5 who have probably logged 2x the amount of hours as me, and I've been here since beta 2.1.

In addition, ever since this 5v5 crap, cs has been a largely deathmatch game. I miss 6v6, don't you?

-Rav

for sure there are points, but negotive to da game, ppl out there would rather not face it cos we all want it last, certainly as long as everyone wish~~ hope there is way dat da whole can reali work out, i reali personali wish game can become real "E-Sports"

Fred,
First and foremost, I think your article was well written and raises some definite concerns regarding the niche of competitive gaming. However, what I do believe your article understates is the parallelism that pro-gaming shares with any other business in the world. That being the challenges to finding and maintaining a customer base. The largest task ahead of the pro-gaming world is finding creative ways to open up the market, gain support and create a profit. That is exactly what Mr. Munoz tries to do as a Pioneer. It's all about taking risk and showing people what can be done. If the desire is there and the market wants something like this, it will happen. Perhaps you are correct in that today the industry is not quite prepared for a pro-gaming explosion...the world doesnt' quite have a profitable business model either to build pro-gaming on....but what is here is the VISION. Peolpe like Mr. Munoz, myself, companies such as Intel, AMD, NVidia and more recognize that and pure their money into the vision. That is the risk/return that they and all of us take. The payoff may not be realized today, but you can bet that if it is, those companies which 'expensed' some investment into the concept of pro-gaming, got their name out and created a supporting image will reign atop the mountain of it all.

Moreover, just like any sport, it always starts out small and has to gain support and recognition before it can catch on like wildfire. Look at the existence of the Internet on a broad base in just the United States. It has only been around in the mediums as most know it since 1994....through that period of time we have evolved from dialup 2400 baud modems to areas saturated with high-speed internet. However, even on that note, not even 1/2 of the US Population has broadband access. Now what does that say, to me it is reflective of untapped market potential for so much. If you rule out just 1/2 of the US population that is talking about 130 million people and say even a fraction of that, perhaps 2% want to play online sports, that leaves you with 2.6 million people, of which perhaps 10% want to 'compete' per se...that's 260,000 individuals....from the US alone in an untapped market. Take that to a world wide level of broadband and person capacity...the numbers become staggering....You may also be asking yourself the question of ok, that's great, but the infrastructure to support world-wide broadband is just not possible...i turn you to the concepts of low-orbit and middle orbit satellite technology...perhaps it's not here just yet but it will provide high-speed low latency broadband just like cable and dsl but from satellites (e.g. look at: http://www.teledesic.com for a technology preview).

What I want to get at here is that although your article provides substantial evidence to support your arguments against the concept of pro-gaming exploding into the mainstream, I believe you are wrong. You simply rule out the intangibles that are so key to businesses becoming successful such as innovation and the ability to adapt. Perhaps in it's current form today pro-gaming would not take off, that much I could agree with you on, but to make such a bold statement that pro-gaming will remain the same or die in a world which moves and changes at the pace that we have seen in just the last 8 yrs is outlandish in my mind. You simply cannot rule out the facts that

1) Computers and technology are more integrated into daily life than ever and will become MORE so in the next 5 yrs

2) The baby-boom generation is fading out and the next generation of people, born and raised with computers are coming of age

3) Technology companies evolve so fast that the next logical progression (since you don't need 2.5ghz computers to type on) is turning into industries that DEMAND more power in order to make money. Previously just business, but now computer gaming and more over, highly interactive gaming (think about Virtual Reality based environments, better 3d graphics and processing power to replicate at home 3d worlds which YOU can immurse yourself in)

I could go on for quite some time more, but I ask only that you open your mind to what will come of age from all of this technology. People will turn to technology for those things they can't get other places. Be it a virtual tour through the Vattican, a sailing cruise on the Ocean or competing in a virtual environment. Oh ya, what about all the people that might be physically handicapped and unable to compete in real-life but can compete just as good as anyone else in the world in a virtual environment where your MIND is the weapon. Talk about an equalizer.

Again, I liked your article it provokes a lot of thought and things that anyone needs to be aware of going forward in that business, but I think you lack the vision and belief of what can and will in my opinion come of age.

Apologies if this article was fragmented, but it was written from my gut.

- Eric Cohen (aka Icey)

I competitively compete for clan To Excel (www.clan2xl.com) and am the founder of To Excel Corporation, an up and coming business that will aim to help bring this pro-gaming scene to anyone interested.

If you have any questions, comments, want to chat you can reach me at [email protected] or on aim (IceyLaptop or LinuxGruven) or on msn ([email protected])

Thanks.

I suspect you might have a wildly different view of the future compared to Mr Munoz. Quite often in interviews he hints to what would be his ideal future for pro gaming. And that is some sort of organization like the NBA, with himself as league commisioner of course. Ie where the control basically lies with the CPL. Players would have to sign contracts naturally. There are countless problems with this scenario. Too many to mention really, and it has been done better elsewhere. Basically trying to achieve some sort of stability in an environment where the "athletes" are 15-20 year olds with a "lifetime" of 1-3 years (often not even that). Add to that the need to constantly change game, which in most cases renders the old household names obsolete. Who would want to watch the worlds top CS players get their ass handed to them in Quake4? So we have a sport with very little continuity. What is there to suggest that the next game is even interesting to players/fans? The only thing that the CPL has in common today with the CPL five years ago is that they hold LANs where they play computer games. The game is different, pretty much all players are different. Most of the people who followed gaming back then don't know. One of the guys who commented suggested that consoles would be a much better bet to actually become something pro, I think he is much closer to the truth then the CPL will ever get.

Oh, and I think you are overestimating the risk the CPL is taking. They get the money from sponsors and risk absolutely nothing. He even got a huge inflow of new cash, as to render what was a very small risk totally insignificant. Not very hard to be a pioneer. I'll hand it to him, he is good at getting sponsor money. They also are good at holding LANs.

The only reasonable stance towards this whole thing is to be very sceptical until the CPL shows that they actually can attract the interest of a larger group then today. Despite the belief of some here that millions care, most evidence points in a completely different direction. And of course, until we see some sort of indication as what the CPL plans to do to actually generate income from its audience, this is just a well sponsored dream.

I think you are vastly overestimating the potential interest here. My theory is that most of those who play games actually to it because they themselves want to play. Only a sad few like to watch it.

I wish I could be more optimistic about the future, but pretty much everything I read about future plans for the electronic medium is about someone else wanting to take control of what people can do with the computer in the future, be it MS with their Longhorn or the CPL with their visions. Being a grumpy bastard I enjoy seeing development in these directions fail. Do I think Mr Munoz likes computer games? Sure. Do I think that has any effect on his business decisions? Not a bit. If he would have thought shrimp fishing would be a better prospect, he would be sitting on a fishing boat at this moment.

The majority of "athletes" at this stage are only 15-20 simply because it is a new generation and a new addiction. People are still growing up to computers, and gaming in particular. Like so many people have already said 30+ year olds never had a computer when they were young, so never got into this sort of thing and are not interested with it, but THIS generation is interested, and will most probably still stay interested for at least another 10-20 years even if they do move to other games, its the genre we're talking about. Then the next generation will come, surrounded by the newfound computers and gaming, even more widely spread than they are now as new connections and technologies are released.

The problem of insecurity in that games are always being newly developed and taking the gamers away from other games could be solved by trying to actually do something about this and produce a standard game or type of game that could be used _purely_ for this purpose, but this would be very hard to do and will probably take a long time to get right.

But there is no reason why this should fail in terms of INTEREST. Computers are advancing all the time, technology is advancing all the time, connections and connection coverage is advancing all the time, the number of new people getting computers and using them frequent is rising rapidly. Whether you like to think it's not, the whole industry is still growing very rapidly. Hell, many people even thought just sending emails was geekish 2-3 years ago, now just about everyone i know (who would have been included in that bracket) has a computer and uses email and other net programs as such on daily basis's without thinking twice. The same is happening with computer games as i have experienced throughout my own life. Yes my mates only play the games for fun, but if theres a chance to watch some brilliant players then they'll be interested to watch it and have a laugh doing so. They don't take it seriously like the actual pro's, they have a laugh, but there is nothing wrong with this as some people seem to think. Just like people watching a game of football or something, majority of people don't take it seriously at all, they just want to be entertained, and what they find entertaining will be proved in the next 10 years or so.

i dont have time to read all the text.. but i just want to tell this to fred:

you keep on saying its around 3000 pro gamers whatever..
if you think of the amout of players online who want to be in
cpl its such a huge amout so you cant even count 'em..

gaming is hold to the internet, if almost the whole world only
got 56K its not odd that the gaming aint growing so fast..

but in around 5 years almost everyone will have atleast DSL..
this will make gaming even bigger..


if you would take away all sponsors from fotball, you think they would be able to play a match?
no, of course not, it would die.. because no one would buy any products so the company's would fade away, and the fotball would be to expencive to play in, so no one would lay the intresst in it anymore..

gaming on the other side is not so expencive, and it has its sponsors to survive, if the sponsors go away, there still would be tournaments because of the free internet.. and it would live on for a while..
but sponsors just makes it a little bigger by making an ability for lans..

you dont seams to know much about sponsoring, i suggest you start an own company, see if you can get famous by just giving out products to the shops.. no one would buy your stuff, because ´no one know who the hell you are, no one would buy it, because you dont leave any advertisement,..
all sponsoring is about is advertisement..
if you give a team 4 3D cards, then of course gamers will buy them!, what else would need 3d cards? if you dont game, then dont buy them! thats the pont of it, logitech are gaming mices so gamers buy them, 3d cards are for gamers so they buy them..
its kinda usless for a company to advertise if they have a TVSHOP, because who the hell would wanna buy TV stuff if they are gamers? wtf are they gonna have a TV for? lol..


i hope you understand what im trying to say.. because advertisement is the thing every money making company need, and where else would logitech advertise if it wasent gaming? :)

I don't have a clue what kind of video card any so called pro gamer is using, same with mouse. So it does means that when I bought my new mouse and my new video card, it was based on other factors. And to my great surprise it is the same for pretty much everyone else I know. Perhaps I just hang with smart people, I don't know.

One question, if your idols got free ATI Radeon 7500 cards, would you buy a ATI Radeon 7500 next time? I guess it would be appropriate to inform you that if you say yes I will call you a retard.

You seem to think each purchase is based on pure marketing and advertising. It is a very naive standpoint. You have to insert such trite variables as price, performance and availablity. Sounds boring I know, not at all like asking a "pro gamer" what kind of mouse he has and blindly buying the same thing.

And once again. I have no doubt loads of peole LOVE to play computer games. I just think very few of them care about if some guy plays for money on a LAN somewhere.

imagine that you knew nothing about graphic cards? try seing it from that way.

He's not trying to say that everyone goes out and buys something a "pro" uses. All he's saying is that the companies get the word out to gamers that they exist, and they have products on offer that suit gamers. It's thier form of advertising, and why not sponsor a top clan that people know or might know in the future if things pick up as a better way to get it across to the target audience you want, gamers. Because let's face it, there aren't very many ways you can get word out about sponsors in gaming, especially once a game has been made and you haven't had a chance to have anything to do with it's developement, so you cant get any inside sponsorship as it were. There's no commercials in gaming, there's no advertising at all inside the actual games, so sponsoring clans and just getting the word out around the community through this is the only effective way to really go about it. Unless you pay a company thousands to stick advertisements up inside thier actual game, instead of paying out $200 to send some people some mice.

thanks mate, i couldent have said it better :)
and thats exactly what i mean, but this guy dosent
seams to understand what his accutly are trying to
bring out.

If I knew nothing about graphics cards, I would still not trust a 16 year old kid telling me what to use. I would read hardware review sites, PROVEN ones like Tom's or Anandtech. Then I'd play with one in person if I could, if I friend had it. You don't buy Kobe's shoes because Kobe says to, do you? You buy his shoes because they fit you well and you think they look cool (I am SO sorry for you...lol, just kidding). Anyhow, I seriously doubt a "pro-gamer" has the same sway as a basketball player.

The more and more I look at it, I think there are two ideals here. One which just wants fun competition, much like Eric Cohen's post. It appears he simply wants to allow people to play for the sake of enjoying themselves. Occasionally winning prizes is the result. The idea of driving the pace of technology is fascinating, considering what the future must hold for what is possible in a virtual world. I myself would love to have a game where I could feel virtually elsewhere, whether it is to tour a volcano or explore space, even simulated "combat". All without the dangers of lava, bullets, and decompression. That's just cool stuff.

Angel, however, masks his greed as his "vision". This is not a new concept - Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, and others have done the same thing. They want to invent the future, and they want to be in control of what you experience, feel, taste, touch, and see - all for a price. You seem to forget Angel was a stockbroker before all this. I'm sure the idea of being filthy rich is not out of his mind. Hell, I think it's the foremost thing in his mind. "Look at me, I'll be a household name and go down in history for this!" he sings to himself at night. Angel does not care about you, about me, about anyone. He just wants the dollars to roll in. And he wants to be famous.

How is this different, you ask? Well, I'd like to go back to my example of paintball. Paintball is a great game. Many people love it. There is even a national league, many tournies, and prizes. That's fantastic. Maybe people go to play just for fun. If they're good at it, they win some goodies. If not, they enjoy playing a game they love. They aren't looking to make a living from it - they all have day jobs and don't intend on quitting anytime soon.

Angel apparently feels that he can make gamers into "athletes" - people who will exist solely on the basis of their gaming. I won't bother repeating Fred's comments on why this doesn't work, but keep in mind 2 main points: age and continuity. You CANNOT enter into a legally binding contract with a minor. Period. Will I get replies to this crying out that we must change contract law? Good luck.

Second, as Fred stated, the game itself changes every year or two. This works WONDERFULLY in mr. Cohen's envisionment of the future, with fun tournaments where people come to play and maybe win some cool prizes. The games could change, but the tourney would still be the same idea. You win, you win. Everyone has fun. However, Angel somehow wants us to make gamers nationally recognized icons or role models. How exactly does this happen, when 95% of your fundamental nature (the game) changes between tournies?

-Rav

"If I knew nothing about graphics cards, I would still not trust a 16 year old kid telling me what to use. I would read hardware review sites, PROVEN ones like Tom's or Anandtech."


How is it "proven"??? Were you there right next to Tom or Anand when they were testing the cards? You have to remember that these sites are not just review sites, it's a business as well. They milk these companies for their money and in return, Mr. Tom and Anand will give great reviews. Face it, these review sites have been bought out. I work for a company (name withheld) that sends products out for reviews and I know the ins and outs of these review sites.

It doesnt matter how much sponsorship and money you pour into it, the fact remains. Watching people play computer games just isn't going to cut it as a spectator sport. Straight and simple.

1) As Fred pointed out, the game is going to change every few years - you can't support the same team for more then the life of the game. I can't comment on American sports for examples, being a Brit, but football (or soccer as you insist on calling it) counts on die-hard supporters most of which support that teams for *years*. You can't do that in CS. Good clans get together and break up quicker then, erm, something very bloody quick (help me out here guys). How can you support a clan/team here?

2) Yes a helluva lot of people are connected to the Internet, and there are even more people who will connect within the next 5 years. But this doesn't make them want to play computer games. 9/10 of people at my university have a computer, (approx 2000 people there), but theres only about 100 of us who play games on the uni network. Most of us play for pleasure. While I wow at the occassional replay, many of us dont bother watching any other games. Yes, we do have the odd clan game here and there, but spectators are few and far between. While as someone pointed out, that something like CSNation may get thousands of visitors every day, this is from the whole world. Thousands across the world isnt that much. Millions of people have the internet, but not many are that interested in gaming.

Those are the main 2 points as to why e-sports will never hit it big, I believe.....However, as I understand it, the CPL makes a great Lan party for gamers to meet and compete with each other. That's as much as I see it.

Well, the companys dont just send theese graphiccards to progamers and so on. Did u think tomshardware buyed them all? No...

A better example is with mices...

a topclan gets 5 logitech mouses...

they win alot...and gets question like, hey, how long have u played? what sens? what chair u sit on? what mouse u use? what color is your pubishair..(well not the last one maybe...)

The guy buys the exactly same mouse...and think its good for gaming, and goodlooking. Now the thing is that he tells on a little lan with his friends how good his mouse is..and maybe if the friend should buy a new mouse and standing in the local computer store and holding a dual optichal and a ms 3.0 he remember that his friend uses one, or that big progamer uses one. and help him with his decision, i think its that the companys will accomplish...

And a little market following cpl, well, they tell all about it for their friends and so on...u dont need to following cpl to now what mouse heaton are using...

thats my thoughts...

This is Eric Cohen again, guess I should really get a login :D

A few other things that I think are valid in this discussion is also the evolution of how you could create a pro-gamer environment. I firmly agree that contractual standpoint, and yes, many of the people today ARE so very young...pretty amazing if you think about it that they can think, act, and compete like they do and do it so well. Regardless of age, kudos to them. However, what I would like to stress that I don't think many people have touched on yet is the role of 'management' so to speak. The unique aspect of CS, imo, is that the game is not the center of play so to speak. It's the teamwork and coordinated efforts that I feel have allowed CS to stay so long. If you look at so many games they are deathmatch, 1v1, 1 v many strategy games etc...Counterstrike has really been the pioneer to tying reallife into a game. The voicecom, teamwork requirement, the fact that a rambo style player will get OWNED in this game makes it so much better for the long term. You can't get as easily bored (minus the stagnant maps of course) which helps in longevity. That to me addresses some of the responses from earlier regardling game life.

Next, addressing the topic of could one become a pro-gamer. I will say this, in today's world or the next 2/3 years I don't believe so. However, I do think it's possible if integrated right. The field of games spans all different kinds of plateaus, just like professional sports. The common thread that is missing today however (minus the age) is a lack of 'management' per se. I think over time, as people see and innovate ways to sustain a life (not talking millions of dollars) for a period of time in pro-gaming competition it'll become more reality. Just like a pro in real life, careers only last so long and as such, it makes sense that in a more fast-paced digital environment the careers would be shorter. The unique thing about this digital world though is the ability to transcend skills from one gaming arena to another. With better integrated and interactive technology for the end-user and more accessiblity to broadband, I do actually believe pro-cyber sports can occur. Now, whether or not this holds up to the level of pro-athletics we are used to seeing is yet to be determined, but it can happen.

Oh ya, for whomever made the comment regarding young athletes and how many exist in pro sports, look @ gynastics :) They are old if they are 18 ;) Same thing with skaters and all. After thinking about it, lots of athletes in real-life are young or make their career once they are young and goto their late 20s.

I think if you take the $ out of the equation as the principal argument people will respond better to the aspect's of a professional gamer. Could it happen, I think so. Will it carry the same illustrious spotlight based career as basketball, baseball, hockey, football and other sports, na, I don't think so. At least not until we get another big revolution of the digital age.

Lets not forget that the keys to sustained success in anything is the ability to adapt and respond to a market and the market's wants/desires. If the gaming scene can do this and perhaps focus more on creating things that spark that market (one of which CS happens to be in my opinion) you might see a swing in trends. If games are just developed cause they sell, you're right...gaming as a pro has no future.

Focus on the market of 'competitive real-time' gaming and it's consumers and then we'll see where this concept really goes. In the meantime, you can make some profitable businesses through lan centers, cyber worlds etc that address today's "arcade" needs. If done right, you can service the I want to come here for fun, with the I want to compete. And on top of that, you could even use these areas as teaching facilities for those who want to learn...after all, how can you grow a market without educating people about it?

- Eric

skaters old when they are 18? hope u dont mean skateboarders, look at the king, tony hawk...have been at the top in skateboarding for the 70-80-90- and now 00....=)

Well.... one thing is for sure... gaming will not go away... their will always be mainstream... and their will always be an underground.... "Pro gaming" is about the dollars! Just as everything with the "PRO" label is... 99.99% of the Profressionals out there playing Baseball, Basketball, Football, etc... do it for the $$$$$$. Think about it! We label it pro.. .cause that's the next step... and the next step involved gamers getting paid! Hence the word, "PRO". Games are only gonna get more serious and more defined and recreated as technology moves on!!! Are pro gamers a flash....???? Could be... but I doubt it.... Games will take a massive leap in a vitual realm... which will have gamers talents focused on there true ability to do these things that are incorperated in the games themselves. Most games will dump to a Vitual Reality..... I can see CS being a more interactive game one day.... sort of like paint ball meets virtual reality meets CS! It's fun to dream aint it!!!! :D

please keep in mind that onling gaming (called e-sports) even though it's "MS Hearts", "Counter-Strike" or "Quake", is still kept on a leash by the capasity of the internet.

Dont forget that a common gamer still sits on nothing but a lousy internet connection that sets the limits (Oh yes, many of propably thinks "harr harr, i have 10mbit so shaddap", but whats your latency on foreign servers?). And as for the CPL event covered mostly by HLTV servers is also depending on this internet connection.

So i think it's still to early to be telling all of us that online gaming (pro-gaming, amateur-gaming, e-sports) is not going to develop, because we are still sitting on the start of an explosion as for the growth of IT.

Personally, I believe that we haven't even seen the half of it, but this is a very oppinionated topic (mentioned earlier).

In short language, what i'm trying to say, is that the interest of spectators and players on an international stand is still very much depending on internet connections. Just dont go on and kill a dream that has not even started..

In my Opinion, online gaming interest will increase over time, no doubt. Technology in both communications and even travel will improve to allow gamers from all around the world to compete in virtual events. Basically for a lot of sports it comes down to - if you enjoy it, you'll play it a lot and if you play it a lot you'll get good. What seperates the good from the great is the innate ability, just like in any other sport

Logitech has made a dual optical mouse. A mouse i consider to be a gamingmouse. How many needs a dual optical mouse to just browser the net? Since it is a gaming mouse, why not sponsor some of the best gamers in the world? Would i be right if i said that gamers are those who change/wear out there mice most?

Example: Heaton gets sponsored by logitech and begins to exclusively use logitech mices. Somewhere in the world there are another gamer that needs to buy a new mouse. He just dont know which. So he looks at certain gamingsites and discovers that Heaton uses this new logitech mouse. Why wouldnt that person be influenced by this? If Heaton uses it, it must surely be good to play with, right? Another mouse is sold.

Correct me if im wrong here. But i dont think a company like Intel randomly throws money at everything they can, im quite positive im right on that one. I also belive that Intel wouldnt give Angel and the rest of the CPL crew a huge amount of money just cause Angel thougt it was a good idea.

You're watching TV and its an Intel commercial on. Do you instantly get the urge to buy a processor? Nope. But you know Intel exist, what new products they have and so forth.
Same goes for all the logo's and giving away free tickets(that every CS related page reports about it). You can also read what computers they will have at CPL on all CS realated pages. Suddenly there is a guy who is tired of having 15-40 fps in CS all the time. And when he sees that specification he thinks, god i need a new computer. He buys a new computer, perhaps exactly the same computer they use at the CPL, or just an "intel computer". Another processor is sold.

etc, etc, etc

I bet there are more spectators at a single world-cup soccer-match at a stadium than the entire amount of people in the world currently interested in Pro-Counterstrike.

i agree

If a company is aiming their products towrds gamers (ex: GeForce4 or Razer Boomslang), why shouldn't they sponsor gamers? You think computer users who just browses the web, checks emails, chats with their buddies online or downloads mp3's will buy these products? Or do you think these companies will target their gaming products to these users? I highly doubt it.

Of course, all these huge companies have no clue. I mean, they pay millions on advertising, and the guys they pay must be complete idiots! THANK GOD we have somebody here on a gaming site to tell them that their advertisement isnt working. If it wasnt working, they wouldnt do it in the first place, they're not stupid. I personally, live in a town with like barely 20,000 people in it, and I heard people talking about NiP and X3 that didnt even own computers. It is reaching people, just like football started, just like wrestling started, just like a lot of things started. Look at Nascar. It started out small as heck, and look at it now. I refuse to believe that the CPL and gaming will be any different. Granted, CS will not live forever, but gaming will only get bigger. Internet Cafe's are going up everywhere. Human nature shows that, when there is competetion, there are a ton of people out there who want to be the best. ALL GAMES thrive on competetion. Human nature wont change just because it's on a monitor, people will still want to be the best, people will still want to see people compete, and people will still pay those people to do so. Give it time.

I refer again to nascar, Nascar was a bunch of red-necks with one cigarette company (winston) pumping money into it. Now it is a sport growing in viewers, competitors, and $$$ is all over the place. I hear people talking about "pros earn money to make a living" not at the begining. Something is wrong wtih you guys, i mean look at all sports. Some guy didnt just bounce a basketball and then all of the sudden a million people started watching him do it, it took time. Nascar took 30 years, and it started growing at 1/1000 of the speed gaming took off. Some people think it's way off and stupid to compare a kid on his computer to a guy in a car going 200 mph, but that's where i think everybody is missing the point. This is much more real than anybody thinks, and it WILL be big. It will even happen way faster than anybody thinks. People just refuse to give it time. Next time you play CS or any game, watch yourself fighting to get to the top, that passion right there lives within almost all human beigns, and it is huge within the CS players I talk to. Like i said before, with that competition, there will people to watch, people to compete, and people to want to reach out to all those people via advertising.

You DO realize that 3dfx also sponsored gaming? Just because someone actually manufactures a product it doesn't mean they will always bet on the right horse. Corporate history is littered with examples of companies making moronic moves. Here in sweden we had Facit who made the worlds best mechanic calculators. I mean, they really did some amazing machines, and were so ahead of their competitors the future looked very bright. Now they are gone. It was something about the electronic calculator coming along:)

I am not saying this will bring down Intel. This is such a marginal thing for them that there is no chance of that. And because it is a marginal thing for them, the CPL can not count on Intel to finance growth into pro gaming as the CPL visions it. Going from the situation today to what the CPL wants will cost 10 times the money, probably 100 times the money. You think Intel will just keep feeding the CPL?

Although you bring up a good topic. All your topics are just ONE topic divided into many topics, and the main topic is : "The CPL hasn't made massive dollars since it has begun, and FRED doesnt think it ever will"

And the answer to the question is : Yes it has(period, no further argument IT HAS MADE MONEY, more than you think)

The CPL has only been around for 5 yrs and if anyone could make "anything" massive dollars in that time then they should be awarded the NOBEL peace prize, because it is impossible. CPL is at least ten times as big as it was when it first started, and if you can't admit that then you are just plain STUBBORN.

I give the CPL (I'm sure many more organizations will spring up much like the CPL , giving away hundred of thousands of dollars away each yr) ten more years to start bringing in any kind of cash that is comparable to professional sports. And when it is done, I'll say "I told you so"

One more thing:

Yes people actually buy merchandise if a TOP player uses the product. That is just COMMON SENSE. It works in every aspect of our world. Fashion industry, Music industry, Movie industry etc. When someone assures or writes a good review on a product it gives alot of people in this world the CONFIDENCE they need when spending money on a product. In this case NOOBIES are confident when they buy a new mouse, keyboard etc.

Of course the CPL is bigger today, and the sole reason is that a few companies give them more money to spend today.

Most new companies have a hard time initially of course, but they also have some sort of long term plan for how they will generate money in the long run. Have you ever seen the CPL address this issue?

That isn't the only problem for the CPL. The biggest problem for them must surely be that not many people care about them. Sure we can pretend that if just people knew about it they would love it. I actually think that most of the people who know about it don't care and will not care.

Look at the numbers in irc this weekend and keep in mind that this is a worldwide thing, and also one of the biggest event of the year (at least if you ask the CPL). Wouldn't you expect more people to care if this was such a huge thing? I know I do. Where the CPL are and what they are doing isn't such a guarded secret that people wouldn't be able to find them if they cared, especially gamers. Moreover, pretty much all who like gaming but don't like CS will ignore it. So depending on what game is played on the CPL lans, you will have a completely different audience. Doesn't sound like a sponsors dream if you ask me.

In my previous posts (I can't be arsed to register for more junk mail), I have NEVER said online gaming won't be popular. Far from it, online gaming etc will continue to grow a heck of a lot. (By the way, 56k connections don't stop online gaming the way a lot of people seem to think. I've had 56k for the last couple of years, still do, and while its annoyingly slow, I still play CS, Diablo2, HalfLife online without lag problems - pings of around 180-200 are inconvenient but PERFECTLY playable. Yes I do LAN game a lot, but it's easy to adjust)

What I'm saying is that online gaming won't go professional because it just doesn't make a good spectator sport to watch. NASCAR racing has a constant thrill to it, like any form of racing. I just don't think online gaming will ever ahve the kind of following it needs to go "big" and truely professional.

Junk mail?

I think there have been many bad examples of sponsorship. The giveaway stuff - free mice, free t-shirts, etc. - are not really what I'd call sponsorship. The marketing guys have an allocation of free stuff to giveaway and it's no skin off their back to give it to 'top' gamers. I do agree that this stuff is more of a joke than anything else, and the marketing guys aren't expecting to get anything back from those (and from what I've seen don't even bother collecting stats on it).

There are sponsorships and endorsements that do work, however. When I was endorsing razer mice, I used dedicated gaming media to get the message out to large numbers of gamers (e.g. PC Gamer (UK) - 300k readership) and mainstream media to get info out to massive numbers of people (e.g. BBC1 News - 2 million viewers or newspapers with million distribution). When you've just seen a product in a news story, you're more likely to be confortable picking that product off the shelf to buy it.

This works, there's no doubt. The sales figures of Razer mice is a testament to that.

There are all sorts of other endorsements that do work, from my experience with VGA and gaming centres. Gamers that use gaming centres are always more comfortable buying the products they use at the centre than stuff they've never tried. That includes software and hardware.


Basically I do agree with you that there's a lot of nonsense marketing going on with no return, but from my own experience I do think that 'ESports' has a future.

that's a sensible comment sujoy, i think you of most people have a right to comment on this :) however what most people fail to understand is that even though e-sports may have a future, the players will never be athletes, and it hasn't happened yet, as people such as my good friend rhyzz seem to think! /me sighs. Fred, i think you are possibly the most persistent of anyone on any forum type thing ive ever read in 6 yeras of using the net. Impressive arguing dood, keep it up - makes an interesting read and also echoes the sentiments of many.

Too many people are jumping onto the bandwagon of "pro-gaming has to happen/is in the process of happening". Fred is right if the CPL make no money, eventualy they won't be able to go on, unless they want to maintain the status quo, like they do now - and that isn't pro-gaming.

Winning some prize money once a year, no matter how much it is, doesn't make you a professional, it merely makes you rich for a time! People who have a negative view appear to have thought about what they are about to say a lot more than those who just dismiss the opposite arguement to their own (the people who are positive usually). Its a lot harder to be negative and even cynical than to be positive and go along with mass opinion, which as usual is based on a hopelessly floored view..

tbh who gives a *** anyway. Games are just that, somat to do in your spare time or as a hobby. It's never gonna me a massive world wide sport or anything like that, to even think that is stupid.

Millions of people play chess and have done for many years but no one cares about any or their tournaments. The reason being that people would rather play by themselves than watch a bunch of spotty gits playing on tv.

The point about hardware is very good, anyone that wants to take professional gaming seriously needs a ninja pc and theres always someone trying to gain an advantage with newer hardware, better configs etc...

Anyway, in a few years time cs will be dead and there'll be a new game out. The post about cs being like football, grow up for gods sake. Football clubs have 100+ years of history and it's considered religion and way of life to millions of fans.

The CPL is just a place for game and pc hardware companys to flex there advertising might. Fair play to anyone that can make money from it.

btw I find it sad that so many people are moaning and fighting on here about somat that, quite fankly no one should give a **** about anyway

urr, companies make alot from sponsorship and equipment.

Take NiP for example, you may not think it, but scratch the surface, and there are so many people who want to have their setup and all their gear.

look on sogamed.com over 40,000 people have downloaded HeatoN's config.

online sports could take off, but it will take time, and some very clever marketing :)

Um why pash pro-gaming anyways, isn't that the dream of everyone who loves to game, Play games and get paid for it? If the writer of this article is out to give a reality check then he really needs something to do or maybe someone hehe

SC is pro.... massivly over in europe and korea and such.. they have TV stations and many tourneys .. with "crowds" coming to watch the games you know like hmm in a theater setup.. with the players on stage.. i imagine that is pro CS and Other things someday.. why is there less from europe?
cause other places have better players this year.. why?
cause people wanted to get better cause they wanted to win.
Football stars dont pay for thier play, a team does which is sponsored by many things. and kids play football .. some for fun "a select few" to become pro.........

fans that go to football games barely even play football in ratio that is....

just because PC/electronic gaming. Doesnt mean you have to be able to run the 100 in 9 seconds or lift 200 lbs or be 7' tall.. doesnt mean its not a sport.
you have to be quick smart and stay focused . sometimes focused much more than some people that just need to be fit, which gives it a different aspect all together and when people are more aware of the availability to play FOR A REASON more than to play.. they will try .. many will fail
a "select few" will succeed and people will pass thier prime.
and no games wont fade as fast .. they may be updated but the rules are the same . people quit cause they cant do it..
cause someone is better and they cant stand it .......
which means they obviously werent doing it JUST for fun in the 1st place.

not to mention tell me this much look outside.. right now.. walk outside even look around tell me how many people are sporting? football basketball ect ect?......

knock on all the doors and ask if anyone there plays online games.. i bet more people play online stuff .. than you see play sports ..................

also most houses nowadays have a computer and some sort of connectiuon to the net. alota younger people arent allowed to go out late at night so? they game..
i bet you anything there are players better than slayers'boxer' for SC and better than heaton for CS.
that people just DONT know about cause they just DONT know about the tourneys and what not.. there is so many people doing everything im sure there is people that belong in the nba that arent and sucha nd such and such. cause of lack of connections. just cause the world lacks communication doesnt mean progaming wont happen :P

about the cpl switching games so players will? thats cause
cpl isnt pro PRO gaming... football basketball baseball and all the likes of those.... where not the 1st sports i assure you.
cs SC and others are near the 1st decent ones to be used.
cpl as others have said is helping gaming become PRO..
when this happens certain games will have mega sponsors perhaps not like football and stuff at 1st but yes those have been around ages. so games WILL stay around for much much longer when all this goes PRO...........

from page 2:"look after your mrs etc.. even god forbid *kids*, and as it stands i doubt any of the current "pro" gamers could do this on the grand scale of things. "

Some SC PROOOOS get enough money to live great.. 50-150k$ a year.. #1 quaake player gets enough and #1 aoe player gets enoough.. with the fact that gaming can hardly becalled pro as a whole is only cause of lack of advertisment/communication.. hence its CPL not PGL
and obvioulsy if the rest of the world tried to do anything like the gaming scene in korea it WOULD work but they just dont.
that doesnt mean it cant happen...


aaahhhhhhhh what games need is college support LOL
im majoring in RTS gaming or FPS gaming HAHAHAHAHAHA
or or im majoring in teaching but .... im getting a RTS scholarship omg that would rock sigh :\

another thing , in the sports of today ie: bball fball ect..
there are miss calls judged by imperfect people there are no fouls in comp games.. that has to be a plus :P
this is in reply to #96...
atleast you get exercise? as if stimulation of the mind non stop is bad for you? ,

what the heck do you think people are going to do with a college deegree with SO FRIGGIN MANY PEOPLE already having them and such? at any rate. If someone WANTS or DREAMS to be a progamer. why rant on that dream? or say it cant happen? some people wanna be a racer.. that polutes like crazy. and tonsa sponsors go into that.. sigh..
i cant believe people bash or are cynics towards people who have a dream. sorry if its not to cure cancer cause we dont find our joy in that. even though if we happen to spill some stuff and cure it it would be nice :)

why cant younger people have money? why do people put age as a license for nearly anything? heck some of these young"comp GEEKS" (which i dont see why that is sucha stereo type) who dont have college degrees are far supurior to many older people who have college degrees. in the computer field . ..... blah blah blah

blah im talking shit so i hope you didnt waste time reading so far. im just reading da thread n writing CRAP :P hf blah blah
not done yet ok ill finish reading .......

"Because they want to win money? Which of course isn't a contradiction with anything I have said. "

hehe...... when you go to a restaurant. who gets paid more the chef or the dudes chopping the vegis for him? when you go to kmart.. who gets paid more the manager or the checkers? when you play football baseball blah blah.. who gets paid more? the dude who always hits or the guy who hits once in ten games? how do you become the higher up? you take yer time or do things to get better. why"? cause they want money. and yes its the same as winning. you do something and if its good enough you get money. if its not you get fired. luckly making a cheeseburger is easy :p

and i really dont see why all the everything is based on FPS games.. there is alota other games. SPORT games even fifa soccer has big tourneys in asia.. big as CS here so yah its just when they decide to make it pro o_O ...

"If you don't believe me, why has there been a totally different set of clans each year at the CPL? "

simple awnser: the best clans werent there the 1st years
the CS gaming hasngt been around long nor many cpu games worth playing so the best players are found when they show up nothing more. if i played golf from when i was 6 id be as good as tiger heck i own mini golf :P
and youa re telling me cause mj and many others happened to grow 6-12 inches taller than most of us. that we shoudnt have something to play? :P or if golf isnt our thing? :)

heh if i bought a basketball i could use it for some years as well :P mebbie the cds should just have self destruct things every 3 years lol......

blah ill post about page 3.5-4 later this sucks hf :P

If i could understand a word of that I might agree with you, I think you misinterpret the fact that professional means "you get paid directly by someone for doing it weekly, monthy or annually" you dont just get a sponsors GF4 or $1500 and say you're a professional. That just isn't true whatever light you want to look at it in, even the most positive one. What it is, is semi-professional, you get paid, but not enough to live on. An example would be a small local football team, how big is their audience? Not big, if it was big enough to support higher wages then those footballers would become professional, hence the CPL needs to attract a lot more people if it wants to be able to pay big enough prize money, more times a year than it does now and make the top clans that play at the CPL "professional".

Personally I think the number they get to spectate now is impressive, but not in the context of a professional sport's spectatorship. In that context it is no-where near enough. You can say 50,000 people want to watch, even if this is true, until they can then you won't make anymore money - and the CPL need to start doing this if they are to be anything more than an organisation that hold's high-quality lan's and hand's over sponsors money to the winners.

Pro gaming is bullshit outside korea .
Pro gaming will be when technology will provide to people a level of entertainement that goes further what you can find in common sports .
Right now games sucks :( .
To target a large audience the goal isn't that peoples understand the game , it needs to look impressive .
Korea is different .
Korea is like how other countries are going to turn in 3 years at least ( talking about computers and technologies )
When Paris will have 22 000 + pc rooms , ok pro gaming is possible .
China is on the good way .
If you guys want to be pro gamer , go to asia , china or korea , and i can say that in china it will be far easier than korea to find a "real" sponsorship that provides you a salary .

Talking about mainstream .

You need the game to be impressive to watch .
Unlike starcraft or quake .
If you're clueless about the game , you will have no interest
in watching it .
Blizzard is going in this way . War3 is a further step . But still , watcing a war3 game will not get you stucked to the screen if your clueless about it .

Its all about graphics and how impressive to watch it can be .



And , all those cs pro gaming team are honestly making me laugh , its such bullshit :( you guys get almost nothing to play this game, and claim out to be pro gamers.

When like slayer's boxer you will be able to make over 180 000 $ in one year and do tv commercials for ibm at 50 000$ call me plz /

you're a idiot bye

The whole point is that you cannot call yourself a PROFESSIONAL just because you have someone paying for your mouse/mousepad/gfx card.

The REAL proffesionals are VERY few worldwide. And i am talking about those that could support themselfs by playing any game and actually earning enough money by it.

Computer games have a possibility to reach a professional level, but IMO it is still too early to talk about that.

Dont get me wrong, I strongly support the idea of professionalism in computer games but i dont like the idea of a 16 year old talking about beeing a "pro" when he/she still hasnt lived outside his/her parents house.

nuff said.

Half the idea of marketing is to make people aware of a product even if they don't initially buy it, word of mouth is the strongest form of 'advertising' there is and there is more likelyhood of someone buying a brand that they have heard of, be it by whatever means. Advertisers are also reaching a specific market by dealing with the gaming community, these people are the people who *really* give a shit about what mouse they use and although the majority may not impulse buy on the strength that 'x' player has a mouse they will be made aware of its exsistance, that makes a difference because when these people discuss mouse (as they are prone to do, I'm sorry to say ;p) the brand names will be mentioned. Also how many people from the gaming world help friends/relatives with computer related issues? A fair number, I think it is fair to say, and I am sure that at some point this brand name will be mentioned, purely because it is in memory due to seeing it on that website/server etc... It may not provide direct sales as in everyone who sees the advert/acknowledgement on a well known clan's website goes off to buy the product, but it does highten brand awareness and as much as anything else, that is what advertisments of any sort are for.

Ok, WHO was the guy who said:

"Yes people actually buy merchandise if a TOP player uses the product. That is just COMMON SENSE."

Congratulations, you are a marketing GOLD MINE. I can sell anything to you because "they do it". Companies must love you, because you will buy what they tell you, rather than thinking for yourself.

Just imagine "After a hard day of playing cs, Heaton kicks back with new Lucky Strike ultra lights!" (cs players advertising smokes, lol)

Now aside from the kid mentioned above who thinks that's common sense, how many of you buy something just because someone uses it? You know WHY thousands of people use Heaton's config? It's because they think he has some sort of edge that will allow them to gain an extra edge over other players. I've seen some disgusting configs, ones that look like the screen has been bleached. Why? Becuase it helps that player see people better than usual. Ugh.

Restating popular points once again: Nobody here is saying it's bad to want to go to lans, have fun with friends, maybe win a cool prize or two. But I sincerely hope we never see people making SALARIES for this sorta stuff. It's just not equitable. Video gaming is a niche market, at least when it comes to people who want to "pro" game. TONS of people want to play for fun, but a tiny fraction of those would ever want to make it their "job". My job allows me security for an honest profession, I don't have to worry about "slumping", just completing the project for clients.

I hate to call someone a liar, but I really find descriptions of "people who don't have computers talkign about heaton" hearsay at best...

-Rav

The cpl/american-euro league needs to stick to a 1v1 game if it wants to be called progaming. They should work it like tennis, damnit. A select few can make a living, who the hell makes a living off of cs or did from q3tdm? 1v1>

Hi,

How about some real evidence to back up your claims? Stop pulling numbers out of your ass, okay?

How do you know pro gaming isn't growing? Can we get some hard numbers or are you just some dipshit who wanted to start crap?

12-18 year old might be a lucrative market, but not for $400 dollar video cards and $300 dollar pentium 4s. Expensive computer junk does not equal an eminem cd.


I agree Angel is in it for the money, (wonder how much he sees of that 40 million?) and in the process hes convinced you anti social teeny boppers that you have a future in video games. Join the rest of the world please. There is no pro gaming.

For any one citing korea, get a clue. The culture in that part of the world is so fundamentally different that there it isn't even close to a suitable reference. I would argue that most of the climate isn't even about the games, games are just a vessel.

The smart guy who said video games are about playtime is DEAD correct. Its repetative hand eye coordination and with practice virtually anyone can become good.

Maybe some of the cynics are underestimating the numbers, but no where near the overexageration of pro gaming zealots. Someone said 60% of of "half serious" gamers use a certain plantronics headset? Are you stupid? You would be *lucky* if that number was 6% - which I guarentee you its not. There is no market in this for anyone outside zit poppers who are afraid of the sun. Sorry to burst your bubble, you might seem like a majority when you gather in your secret chatrooms, but you are definatly a subset of a subset of a subset of society. Any any normal person doesn't give a flying about your dual optical mouse and how you one $10,000 in counterstrike.

Well done . Now the sponsors have to read it... :)

The key about marketing departments is, it's worth some money for them to take risks. Nobody is perfect in planning the next 'big' thing. Look at the rocky start the handheld market got off to. Imagine how many companies took a bath sponsoring development or promoting the Newton (which, though I love it, was neither effective nor practical in light of today's Palm).

Intel's only interest here is in defeating AMD in a market segment it has soundly gotten its ass kicked in for the last year or three - the home custom-built gaming box. They have no more "vision" or "good will" than Angel.

-Rav

I think the biggest problem why the games don't go mainstream is that CPL (and really most of YOU) don't sit with the same games. UT2003 should be good, but christ! let's see Quake3 last longer than 2 years.
Why do people PLAY and WATCH other pro sports? because they have a history; that's why.
Good comments by Fred; although, I think Munoz does a fine job organizing a business that constantly changes.

Never forget what real sports are ! So just compare real sports with cyber games and you will see the answer to the question: "When progaming will be a true sport, with everything that implies ?"

Fred,

People like you are what make my life enjoyable. I thank God that there are so many near-sighted and unimaginative people in the world, like yourself. You have probably never had an original idea in your life, unlike Angel Muoz.

Mr. Munoz had the vision and the passion to try something that had never been done before - to create an entirely brand new form of entertainment. He has tirelessly marched on with his idea, going form tiny local LANS to the biggest, and most lucrative, video gaming events ever held. And all of this within a relatively short span of 5 years. Mr. Munoz has the entrepreneurial skills to entice some of the biggest names in the computing industry to actually sponsor the events, as well as some players, and to get behind the CPL's vision. These companies, such as Intel and Gateway, have proven track records of great business acumen, incredible marketing skills, and foresight .
Do you really believe that these companies think that pro-gaming is just a flash in the pan? Do you think that they would commit the time, money, and support if they could not see the 'big picture"?

Obviously, it will take time for pro-gaming to latch on as a standard form of entertainment. But all it will really take will be that first 1/2 hour special that gets run on MTV (with as much saturation as any of the programs that they run now) or something of that nature and the youth of today will be saying "So, what kind of mouse does Sujoy use? That guy rocks - I want to use the same equipment that he does" And, if you REALLY don't think that that will happen - then you are an even bigger idiot than I thought. Just because YOU wouldn't buy a piece of equipment doesn't mean that the majority of gamers out there wouldn't. Think about it, how many "stars" endorse products that you wouldn't buy?. But there are TONS of people out there that WILL buy a product based on those endorsements.

As the owner of the first computer gaming center in the Washington DC area, and as the person who started the CPL Qualifying Centers program with Mr. Munoz, I know first hand the hurdles that one encounters when trying to create something new. I will never forget the people like you that I met when I first decided to open my center ( "it will never work, nobody will ever come, people that play games don't want to leave their basements.....blah, blah, blah.) 6 months later, when people were lined up at my door WAITING to get a computer, and watching everyone play while they waited, I was reminded of all the naysayers. And it used to make me smile everyday.

Snowdog

Cute, you are calling me idiot and then go on dreaming about pro gaming being on MTV. :D

Hello Fred (mr cs is dead)

hello all you gaming addicts,had to jump in and have my say,hope you dont mind.

Ok first off regarding your comments relating to the growth of pro gaming i would like to compare proffessional skateboarding to pro gaming.In the 70's skateboarding was what many would have called a new and minority sport socially unaceptable and very disorganised.It took the dedication and hard work of a few to keep it moving forward throught the highs and lows of the 80's and 90's today it has the commercial appeal that allows for huge events and sponsorships.Pro skaters make millions (Tony Hawk) and enjoy the respect and support of many die-hard fans across the world.

I am very sure that in the early days of pro skating many sponsors "threw money away" at events and at individauls.In the long run the community grew to a size were the sales of product allowed for them to continue to do exactly that,and not flinch at the so called waste.The true benefit was in the level of competiton that such sponsorship help develop.

So here we are some 30 odd years later and no skateboarding is not an olympic sport ,never mind neither is american football.The point is this it does not need to be olympic it just need to have governing body (like the CPL or WGC) and and the support of the community as a whole.

Will gaming become "pro" i think it allready is.How long will cs last as the main competeive game,right upto and untill condition-zero is released.Will the sponsors reap the rewards later of the investment they are so kindly putting in now,yes.Its just a matter of time.We are in the "Historic" period of gaming and years from now i hope that we rember the the top gamers that helped pave the way for what will surley become a powerfull and respected sport and industry.

Soon (not soon enough) you will be able to watch a game on your tv and in the breaks the pros will market product to you,mark my words it will happen.The numbers are there right now,dispersed maybe,uniformed yes,uneducated forsure,but they are there and growing every day.

Fred it seems to me you have a problem with the CPL dont let that blind you.The CPl is not the be all and end all of pro gaming.As far as i know WCG supports more games than the CPl and is geared towards the internationl gaming community not just North America and Europe.Nevertheless i am sure another organisation will rear its head in years to come,and i wish them the best of luck.

Many years ago people like you said the same things only they were talking about skateboarding,go ask Tony Hawk if he ever dreamed of the success and fame and fortune he has enjoyed,no i dont think so all he wanted to know was "were is the next comp,and how do i get better".

That is what we need in gaming,people that are dedicated and willing to compete,the rest will be handled by the evil people like Angle,intel and the koreans.

Goodbuy and goodluck

lGamersInc.Snakestylesl

Miles Regenass
Gamers League Of South Africa

http://www.gamersinc.co.za/

http://www.glsa.co.za/

Angel Munoz fan boys, now thats funny. #187 go back to the 7th grade where you belong. You honestly believe this has anything to do with anything other than money? Look at Angel's behavior, how he conducts himself, how he treats opposition. Hes exploiting fanboys like you to make money, I feel sorry for you.

Can someone tell me how much Fatality and other so called top notch pros have made playing CS. thanks

but m8.. if you dont care for pro gaming.. why did u bother writing all that. the fact of the matter is.. theres a massive following for online games.. and many players wud love to have the chance to play at that standard.. and for some of them it will always be a dream.. they still feel theres a chance.

________________________________________________

Its more tahn a game, Its a religion.

It doesn't matter about sponsors. Sponsors won't make pro-gaming happen. It might help, but not much.

How many sports clubs do you know that thrive (I mean properly function, we're not talking village teams here) on just sponsor money. You NEED spectator money, money coming in from people watching you to fund something like pro-gaming. And watching other people play computer games isnt something that is going to appeal to the masses. I play LOADS of computer games, but I don't want to watch the CPL on tv. I might watch the ocassional CS replay and wow and some people's skill, but not that often. People that want to see this kind of thing on TV are in a very FEW minority compared to the rest of the population - and that means very little money, if ever, available.

Don't get figures confused here, while I would love to COMPETE in a CPL championship, this doesn't make me want to watch other people play.

Therefore there is no money to fund pro-gaming on, and therefore pro-gaming dies a horrible death. Gaming is a form of entertainment for oneself (however sexually tilted that sounds), and just doesn't cut it as a spectator sport.

Oh and by the way, people watching the the games not via TV most probably aren't paying to watch and so no money comes in via internet viewing - and if the CPL do charge for online viewings, whats to stop someone else setting up a free proxy so people can watch for free? The Internet is almost anonymous anyway.

OnGameNet recently drew a 54% share for the bracket drawings for their latest Starleague. That's 54% of a city with eight million people on a CABLE station. And it didnt' even show a game on it -- it was only deciding who would play whom in the upcoming league.

CPL may not move their offices to Korea, but you attack the idea of pro-gaming in general and not just the CPL. Yes, I think you make valuable points about gamers not making ideal representatives. This is still early, though, and players have improvements to make as companies do.

In Korea, for instance, you are expected to be polite when playing in tournaments or on TV. Say GG, say your opponent was a worthy adversary even when you just nuked him 12 times, etc. (Yes, I watched a televised exhibition game where one player nuked the other 12 times, as he was winning easily).

Of course the drawing of a shitty computer games league had a higher portion of the audience then the last episode of MASH and all other programs that have gone to history for mammoth audiences (out of the possible ones of couse).

Get real. Use the new Dove anti-gullible soap. Works wonders.

Oh, just a side thingy here. Where is the official channel for the CPL in irc? I am in irc.gamesnet.net #cpl and there is 1 hour to go until the game between ESU and sk. And there is a massive crowd there. All of 269 people. Even in my most (cynical) dreams could I have imagined interest being that low. I must be in the wrong network, but this is the one all sites point to. Where are you, pro gamers of the world? Unite damnit! :)

Fred looks like u cant stand the facts. A gaming show drew a 54% of shares.Thats a fact.U can make as many dumb posts saying its not true as u want,but it wont change the thing.

Some1 showed u a mistake in your article.Thank him and review what u wrote.Instead u prefer to look silly
by brining up some unrelated numbers that no1 cares about?Good job keep it up man.

Surely such a huge share (most likely one of the most popular shows ever, even if it is within a city) must have gotten a lot of attention. So why don't you find me a link to provide some substance to this.

Oh, and I don't count a post by someone on a CS forum somewhere a reliable source. But that goes without saying. Give me a link where you can find the information that 54% out of the 8 million possible viewers watched the draw. Good luck:) If you actually provided the "facts", it would be much easier for people to accept them.

Oh, I guess it could be a Korean thingy. Then you might want to read the thread before commenting. No one here has denied that gaming is very big in Korea, and that is not the topic we are discussing. Raw fish is very popular in Japan, but that has very little to do with McDonalds in Europe, if you understand my point.

Then confine your hate-posts to CPL only. You attack pro-gaming in general, and make several misconceptions as to the general interest (YOU SAY WORLD WIDE, maybe next time you should say "WORLD WIDE, AS FAR AS THOSE OF US WITH WHITE SKIN ARE CONCERNED") of pro-gaming. I was correcting you, that is all.

The person who gave me the information about the 54% share was a friend who resides in Korea. I'm sure it's accurate, as 1) he has no reason to lie 2) I talked to producers while I lived in Korea who gave me numbers which would make this not seem very unrealistic.

You are not really big on this reading and comprehending thing, are you? Did you even bother to read the column itself?

Also, in response to #187...

Angel has not done anything original or impressive, other than not die. I am truly amazed as in all instances I have seen Angel Munoz act like a puppet, a very rude one, reciting the same goals he did years ago without accomplishing them. You think doing this good in five years is impressive? It's not. This is partially because Angel Munoz is very stubborn and biased -- for instance, he has continued to use games like CS and Quake III when Starcraft: Brood War has a bigger professional following abroad, and a larger player base in the U.S. Constant attention to FPS games is a mistake companies doing pro-gaming in the U.S. repeat. I was at WCG2001 and noticed that, although crammed with 8 computers they had to share with AoK participants, there were far more people showing up to play and watch Starcraft games. Most came the full three days, despite losing out in day1 or day2, to watch the finals.

I might also add that, despite the general crowd being slightly younger, the Starcraft players were pretty nice. Anyone who was at WCG will remember UT and Q3 players frequently screaming out obsceneties during tournament matches. I don't mean to be a nun about things, but as good players you are the representatives of pro-gaming and it's your duty to act like one if you want the sport to prosper.

People like Angel consistantly argue that "You can't understand RTS games, FPS games are easy." You can't understand football, soccer, basketball, etc. any easier than you can understand RTS games. You need to know the rules to start watching, otherwise you'll just have a mundane understanding that is probably equal "These guys must get the ball in the goal" "The yellow humans must kill the green bugs". FPS games between good players are repetitive and incoherently fast. Starcraft, on the other hand, is very complex, interesting, and games are different from one to the other. Good players have distinctive styles that can be picked out by spectators without seeing the names of the players playing, or their faces.

Angel was not the first to try to bring pro-gaming to the forefront, and he's not the most successful. The sad part is he refuses to take input from outside sources (like VERY successful companies in Korea who have made gaming a national sport for something THREE YEARS), and truly thinks of himself as a success. Hopefully he will wise up as he IS the "only game in town" for us americans, or he will continue to pigheadedly drive CPL into the grown and deter companies from venturing into pro-gaming in the future.

Im not from Korea myself so we would have to ask some korean to browse the korean sites for us,but i myself believe its true.Why? Download VOD of Ongament final.There is a 5k stadium watching the final games.Yep players playing on the stage and the full hall (prolly a wrong word but my english sucks ) watching them do it.

Oh and btw why do u want to prove u point so bad? U dont want pro-gaming do go strong or u are just one of the nee sayers that want to get some attention? If u dont like progaming then dont post on the progaming site and go on with u own live.

True, but this isn't really a pro-gaming site. This is a general gaming site for anyone.

And Korea is a step apart from the rest of the world. You can't take statistics from just Korea and expect it to apply to the rest of the world. Apart from Korea, where the whole country is pro-gaming mad, there aren't enough people interested in watching pro-gaming to make gaming go professional.

Imho, RTS games make better games to watch because of the wide variety of strategies, and every game is different. Cunning plans etc, different build orders. Playing an RTS is unique to each person. CS strats rarely change much from clan to clan on a map. However, I will concede that the USA (which is where most of people who support pro-gaming are I believe) seems to like violent games. Its statistically proven. Otherwise why the hell do you encourage scraps between players in NHL.

Ok, I've suggested multiple times that people who bring "you're just jealous" or "you have a chip on your shoulder" arguments should can them. Have you ever thought that it's possible to be objective and yet have a negative opinion about a subject without having an agenda??

And to the guy in #187: Wow, you win the cluelessness award for the YEAR. I think you've been reading too many of Angel's propaganda articles if you think he is this humble, rise to the top success story who just "has a dream" and "wants to fulfill his vision." You are the virtual child at the end of the slide sitting in a puddle, wondering why he gets kicked in the back of the head every so often.

If you think I have some personal vendetta against Angel Munoz, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I do not. However, I hate blowhards, frauds, and other instances of arrogant people. I don't even have to speculate that Angel is only interested in your money and his own "fame" and self importance. He even POSTS as such on forums. I wish I had the link to the CK3 article, but I remember reading some of his posts and wondering if he was for real. I mean, this supposedly "mature" man was using grade school insults and vulgarities, merely because someone disagreed with him!

Maybe Angel's attitude is why he can sleep at night promoting so many children with the same attitude.

Also, kudos to the poster who pointed out the spectator money issue. It's quite hard to drive an event if nobody is willing to pay money to watch it.

-Rav

everglide mouse pads are pretty popular these days. its a good product, used by a lot of good gamers, and so it spread.

the same logic probably applies to the logitech equipment. and if it does, then lots of sponsors will want to get a hold of cpl clans, to show off at the next cpl or whatever. so the sponsors make more money, cpl makes more money, and ..yeah. =\

i only read parts of page 1 of this collumn. sorry.

WEEEEEEEEEEEELA!!!!

Having read the whole forum reactions I would like to say some things:

1: most games are based on the murder of someone else. I'm not sure those US republicans and "family values fans" would like to see very violent games on TV. Germany has blamed CS for a mass murder these months.
2: what make a sport interesting is to see the physical aspect of the game. Chess is a sport, Bowling too. Who like to see chess matchs here? Not me... I would never ever pay to see a fat kid moving his mouse.
3: Most of the players are not interested by CPL etc... I didn't even watched or went on IRC channel. I just play CS because it's fun. I don't dream about being a vegetable winning money while doing nothing. I really prefer to have a simple work and be usefull for the society.

(sorry for my poor english)

Ok, I read this whole thing, and I'm so sick of hearing some idiot's opinions, NOT backed up by facts, and the same arguements over and over.

!HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE BASED ON UNARGUABLE FACTS!

* LOTS of people play competitive games (beit at lans or online).

* There are competitive tournements being held for these games with cash prizes.

* Seeing as we are trying to make this out to be a "spectator sport" that means people need to want to watch it, and be willing to pay money to watch it.

* At this point in time, not enough people are willing to pay to watch "cyberathletes" thus not advancing us any further.

Now let's see, obviously there is an interest in these games or there wouldn't be people playing at all. The issue at the moment is that A LOT of people don't know about the competitive tournaments, leagues, etc. Who wouldn't want to make $30,000 for playing a game you love? Somehow you need to get publicity for these events, and have the majority of the people playing your game know about the tournaments.

Ok, that is issue no.1 looking at it realisticaly as it is at the moment. Issue no.2 is how it will actually get to be a widely popular "sport". Here's a look at some more facts.

* Seeing as we are trying to make this out to be a "spectator sport" that means people need to want to watch it, and be willing to pay money to watch it.

* At this point in time, not enough people are willing to pay to watch "cyberathletes" thus not advancing us any further.

What needs to be done is tied in with the first issue. More people need to know about the "sport" and need to be involved in it. Once someone wants to play the "sport", and wants to start to compete, and practice, and try to be the best he can be, that's when you get that person wanting to watch the top players. How does one get better? By watching the best, and practicing. Will this not advance people to wanting to watch the best? Now, if we get enough people interested in the game, then a lot of them would want to get better, just like in any other sport. So, now that we have a larger fanbase for the games and competitions, and a larger demand for demos of top players, etc, that is when you can start charging people for the purchasing of said demos, and whatnot.

!! YET AGAIN BOTTOM LINE IS !!

* Increase awareness of competitions with cash prizes. (who wouldn't want to win money playing a game they love?)

* Hopefully that will bring in more sponsors (they will see the popularity of such competitions and will want their ads to be placed at the competitions, or sponsor the top teams)

* From there on, increase the number of competitions

* Now refine the sport so that it is actually a professional sport.

We need more people aware and participating in the competitions with cash prizes. We need more companies to see that this really is popular, and that a lot of people are into it. The companies will then sponsor something so popular, gaining the money for the companies holding the competitions. Then the companies holding the competitions can then put up ads and increase the awareness of said competitions. Once the popularity is significant, and the demand for showcasing the talent of the top players (this will come from the increase in interest and tendancy for one to want to get better and compete). Then you can start to make the sport a reality, based on the sponsors you have, the popularity and awareness of the competitions, and the demand for showcasing of talent. Enforce rules like any other REAL sport. Have an age limit, so the players can enter legal contracts for pay, setup leagues and rules pertaining to gameplay, players, teams, contracts, competition, etc. Therefore making the sport officially a sport.

!IN CONCLUSION!

Ok, this will definetly take time and intelligence, on the CPL or anyone else who wants to try and make this a reality's part. BUT IT CAN BE DONE, PERIOD. People didn't think Skating, or Nascar, or even Paintball (very big in the U.S. at the moment, with sponsorships going to ALL the best teams and competition at amateur and novice levels, plus the sport is growing RAPIDLY) would make it as far as they did. Now Tony Hawk, and Dale Earnhardt are household names. And for the arguements that no one will watch it because it isn't fun, look at Nascar. Who would EVER think watching people go around in a circle would be fun? And then at the time there were those involved in Nascar that loved watching it, but those who weren't involved couldn't care less. That is where this sport is right now, the very beginning just trying to get more die-hard fans involved. And once we do get all the fans involved, watch out, because we will be on our way. BUT, we need more people involved in the business moves of the competitions, we need people out there working for this cause, people who have half a brain and know what their doing. We need the top clans getting involved and helping to get sponsors, etc. From what was said on this board, CPL doesn't know what it's doing. So someone needs to step up and take the bull by the horns and get this rolling on the right track. That my friends, is the bottom line.

- Your Friend,
Alex A.K.A. TeleK

you talk about pro gaming pro gaming sucks

in many ways
- but only for the pro gamer.
imo it is not a usefull "work", to play 8-10 or more hours a day,
7 days a week and thats the whole year.
only for a bunch of dollars that you propably win at the cpl or any other tourney.
you get 20000$ for a a weekend of playing q3,cs,bw or something else.

can you become rich whith that?
ok you have 20000$ at that moment!
but what to do when this money is spend?
and you are not able to win a tourney any more.
......
no work
......
you quit the shool (fata does-or not???)
=
you are a stupid bastard
k you can play q3 gosu like
but who cares?


fuck no time to complete the post 2nd part comes later



[-FIN.Sucky-]

Your rant seems to miss the entire fact that humans are gullible, and that we will buy any and every product that we see someone godlike using...

My example here would have to be something like plantronics, DSP-500's, the teams have these headphones, therefore the newbie with his 56k will see his favourite player using these, which will lead him to believe they will make him a better player.

Theres also the Microsoft Intelli 3.0, HeatoN uses one, how many people would of brought it just for that reason.

"I mean com'on, one of the best CS players in the world uses it, it has to be good!"

-------
HyDrOgEn_BOY

Interesting to read this 10 years later

yes, thanks for bumping

really? or are you being sarcastic? :D

im srs

for me i see the OP being somewhat still true for QL yet not true for SC2 and other "successful" esports games. Shows that from feeble and far fetched beginnings there is now something really real.

well, it was wrong. sc2/league hit demographic of kids/mid 20s that have grown up and still play games now and appreciate the competitive side of games.

spectator friendly competitive gaming will continue to grow