The mouse pad doesn't need to be changed, the sensor needs to be changed.

I agree with you about soft and hard pads as well, hard pads are just too slick, small adjustments have to be constantly steadied but on a cloth pad the friction does that for you.

After reading the specs of the avago9500 and the phillips twin eye sensors I honestly thought laser sensors were finally going to out perform optical. Sadly they both have huge flaws that have people scrambling around trying to change the way they play or what mouse pad they are using to enjoy them. I much prefer my 3G DA to my G500 and I have already tried and returned the trash mice that use the phillips sensor.

Optical is still superior for now IMO.

Kinda sad that a first gen optical (Intellimouse Optical for instance) works perfectly but these don't seem to. But to be fair I'm currently using a 9500 sensor mouse and I ain't going back. It tracks smooth enough for me and I'm not playing at the pro level. :) It kind of bothers me that there might be something there though. We need another objective review like Mousescore so we can lay this issue to rest.

What's wrong with the Philips twin-eye laser that all those 5600DPI razer mice use? (i havent used any of them)

no problems on the PureTrak Talent here :o

To be honest, I don't notice anything while I'm playing, but that could be because I play with medium to high sensitivity. But one thing I know for sure is that I can get this sensor to malfunction by swiping it very quickly across my pad, which I can't do with my 518 or DA, which bothers me a bit.

Checking for acceleration is a little hard since it's imprecise and prone to error but it seems like something is there when I check it informally. Someone needs to build a device that can do this objectively. :)

I have the steelseries 4HD and the puretrak talent along with a few other pads. With my G500 on the talent or QCK (both very , very popular cloth choices but it seems worse on the QCK) the malfunction speed is not what logitech advertises, in fact it is quite a bit lower, even lower then my 3G deathadder that has a post it stuck in it to lower its lift off distance. I made sure to use a clean pad and air out each sensor.

It also does this stupid crap where it will ignore a section of the mouse pad at the beginning but add that section later in the swipe. For an example if you set a starting point on your mouse pad and swipe to the right, then return to the starting point it often never returns. If you have a starting and ending point this behavior makes it seem like it has heavy positive acceleration because it will overshoot the ending point exactly the same distance as it will not return to the starting point, but its just the cloth pads doing it.

BUT, on the steelseries 4HD hard pad, neither of these problems exist. I cannot get the G500 to reach its maximum tracking speed and skip or produce negative acceleration no matter how hard I swing. The crosshair also always returns to the starting position and it seems that the small amount of positive acceleration is reduced.

I can't stand hard pads because they lack control, therefore I can't stand the avago 9500.

Regardless of surface you always get the positive accel with the avago 9500

why

because it sucks

Great answer

What is it about the sensitivity of the 9500 that makes it not work as well on cloth mats?

It's because at the semi-microscopic level a cloth pad is relatively uniform, so the sensor has a harder time discerning changes in movement. If you look at the 9HD (basically designed for the xai) surface closely here:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/SteelSerie...face_2.jpg

You'll see that it's like mountain ranges which makes it very easy for the sensor to tell that the landscape is changing/moving.

Personally I have no issues with my xai on a qck+ pad.

Which gives me the idea, I wonder if an Allsop raindrop pad will work better?

I would think that the friction on the allsop would render it untenable as a pad even if it tracked well.

Personally I don't have much tolerance for friction and before I had the qck + mx518 combination I used an mx300 on a surface 1030. However I took everything out of the mx300 except the two buttons to make it have the least weight (weight adds to friction), and I sprayed the 1030 r (the glide was smoother than on the smooth version) with silicone spray. I also used the emulsion on the mouse feet.

So when I found that the friction on the mx518 and qck was so low I was surprised and impressed.

The teflon feet on the xai are even better. I am certain that I could not tolerate an allsop pad now, and to be honest, I think it is a bit outdated by modern pads.

Which mouse are you using exactly?

I'm using a G9x with the precision grip. It's small and compact like an ambidextrous mouse but fitted for the right hand like an ergonomic mouse. I'm liking it.

allsop raindrop has less friction then qck

Xai and G9x works great on my talent and tracks good on other cloth pads as well(that includes Steelseries qck mass.) There is slight acceleration that most likely comes from an error in the firmware programming. I haven't experienced any other problems except for that.

The Talent looks interesting. I had never given it a thought before. The honeycomb pattern on the surface should help with tracking. The problem is it's huge. This thing easily dominates the desk. If Puretrak were smart, they'd start offering a smaller sized pad instead of these ridiculously huge ones.

that's why they have the smaller Stealth Pad ^^

The honeycomb pattern on the surface should help with tracking.

Think more microscopic than that :-)

Still it might work great for you, I don't know. The qck works fine for me with the xai.

There is a much smaller one, but price difference is almost nothing (5USD) so went for the large one. The talent is 19"x14"x1/4" while the stealth is 15"x10"x3/16". Surface type is supposed to be the same but different print.

Kind of funny how pretty much everyone that complains about malfunction speeds on the Avago 9500 sensor are using the G500. Don't think I've seen complaints about skipping on pads like QCK from G9x or Xai users. Seems to be a problem with the G500, but since people always want many others to share their missery, they say the Avago 9500 and all mice that use it are shit.

Actually, the mouse I tested the malfunction speed on was a G9x. :) I used it on a QCK and tested it in Quake. I swipe the mouse very quickly across the pad while looking at the screen and I can see the mouse malfunctioning. I did the same with a 518 and DA and did not see the same thing.

You are using firmware 1.1? Mine works fine on QCK mass.

When I go into device options in SetPoint it says 58.18 which I believe is the latest one.

G9x and G500 use the same technology. Even the same drivers.

Have both G9x and the Xai and have never had a hint of skipping, and that includes on Steelseries QCK mass. Only slight amount of positive acceleration.

then youre not moving it fast enough. which is understandable since you need to move it quiet fast to get skipping. (faster then ive ever moved it in-game)

EDIT: I just saw that video and you should get skipping or atleast neg accel on that speed. maybe its different between a big qck+ like i have and the small qck that you have

however, i am 100 sure they use the same software and algorithms. look at this they even have the same firmware: http://forums.logitech.com/t5/G-Series-Mice/F...d-p/386274

Software and algorithms may be the same, but sensor mounting is probably not. My QCK is the QCK Mass, same as QCK Heavy, just S&S sized instead of enormous. There is a little bit of positive accel at the speeds in the vid, between 2 and 5 percent depending on surface. Nothing that really hurts my aim.

Yhea thats probably it. I cant wait to get my hands on another avago 9500 sensor mouse to test these things out. (i plan on reviewing the mionix naos this weekend and then return it to the store like an asshole)

Regardless the reason I dismissed my G500 and went back to my mx518 wasnt because of the tracking on cloth, i wouldnt mind switching to plastic pads. it was because of the positive accel and unevenly distributed weight

am i the only one that thinks all steelseries products are terrible?

even qck is crap compared to everglide titan

yhea i agree, i get jittering issues on my qck+ with my mx518 which i have never gotten with it on any other mousepad including cheapass ones that cost less then 5€.
Also the sound quality of the siberia headsey is shit

Sensors you say?!

Made a small video of G9x on steelseries qck mass. The video is a bit blurry and unstable cause it is taken on a cellphone camera, which I had to hold while moving the mouse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzt2f2b6xw

Tried the G9x on an Allsop raindrop XL just for kicks and could not get it to malfunction no matter how fast I swiped. I've gone back to the QCK though because to me it feels like it has more consistent tracking. The Allsop feels different when you move the mouse side to side than up and down because, I think, of how the cloth is weaved. Because of this I wouldn't qualify it as a 'gaming grade' pad. But it is big and comfortable and would make for a good general use pad. Overall, I felt less friction on the Allsop XL than on a QCK.

Nevermind, the Allsop is a superior pad. First of all, less friction. Second, the 9500 sensor tracks better on it. Third, it's large, thick, and comfortable. Acceleration effects are not noticeable (if there is any at all), and I cannot get the sensor to malfunction no matter what.

With the QCK I can get the sensor to malfunction by swiping at high speeds, and I believe I can feel negative/positive acceleration effects in game. Probably due to sensor having issues tracking over a uniform black surface.

BTW, when I said the QCK had more consistent tracking earlier, I meant the surface of the pad didn't have weaves in a certain direction that affected friction. The Allsop has this but after a while you don't notice it.

All they need to do is release the wmo 1.1a with a mx300 sensor. That is all...

Funny that no mice have touched those two in the past 8 years. Wonder what the real engineers are working on instead.

the're unemployed, while marketing specialists make the money. we have to face it, the mass of consumers are retarded. we are a marginal group caring about actual performance

it's sad but true :(
The technology for making mice that are literally perfect has been here for years, its just that those knuckleheads who make mice refuse to do so because they want the highest dpi numbers and shiniest LEDs.
Example: Take the sensor of the original mx518 (if you lower the DPI to 400 its more or less impossible to get negative acceleration), turn off the prediction and make a series of mice with this technology but different form factors for different people. For example one like the Salmosa, one like the WMO, one like the MX518, one like the IE3.0 etc. Make sure they're all lightweight (less then 100 grams) and have braided cables.
Now you literally have a series of PERFECT mice and there would be nothing more to improve. They would be PERFECT.
But the idiots that make mice refuse to do it.

The problem is if they made a 'perfect mouse' no one would need to buy newer models when they come out and the company would go out of business.

You can still buy those mice you mentioned for 10 - 20€. If you think you need more then that you are consuming, not buying sensible. And I don't mean you personally, but everyone, me included of course.

Ok then tell me a lighweight mouse with atleast 2 m/s max perfect control speed with no prediction that you can claw-grip

those mice you mentioned

What's not to understand?

No offence but you just sound like the usuall guy who thinks that he is much brighter than all the mice companys without knowing anything about the business.

Why do you think current mice are the way they are?
Simply because you can sell them, the moyority wants shiny good looking mice, don't care about weight, think they need useless features and play with such high sensitivities that they have more to care about CPI than about max. ips.
Of course the companies took their part in creating this market.
Face it, "we" are just a very small part of the whole market and it's really hard to make many by selling mice only to "us".

And do you really think they put the "flaws" in the mouse on purpose allthough competition is tough enough?

About the "same mouse in different shapes/sizes" thingy:
I once asked a SS R&D manager that question, differnet shapes or sizes would mean a extra tooling for everyone of them, in other words it would cost allmost as much as developing totally different mice and ofc the estimated sales couldn't compensate that (you dont sell 4 times as much of a mouse just because you offer it in 4 shapes).

Making the "perfect mouse" for a part of the esport community, going bankrupt cause you don't sell enough items and having a smile on your face because 10 years later people pay ridiculous high prices for the those mice on ebay doesn't sound like a proper business plan. :D

Well how about they make these "perfect" mice their budget stuff, and make the big, heavy, shiny 10000dpi mice aswell for all the idiots to buy?

If you look at some of the best selling mice of all time (MX518, IE3.0) these are genuinely good mice that dont have any of this marketing bs. they became popular because theyre actually good. (and both of them come extremly close to my requirements)

And would putting new sensors into everything really improve sales that much? remember SS are the absolute worst when it comes to just caring about marketing, theyve never made a genuinely good product and they never will.

I don't see why a company would want to make a product where they don't plan to make some money just to satisfy some geeks.
Imho this business isn't profitable enough to justify such a project.

I'm on you side, alltough we seem to have different opinions on some of the SS products, I would also be glade if the the marketing guys would have less influence on the products.

MX518 and IME 3.0 are very good mice but from a different time, both would have it very tough in some comparison review on the usual review site (or magazin) against modern mice with all the useless fancy crap.

mx518 and ie3.0 STILL sell very well to this day. id bet money that the mx518 has sold more then g500 since the g500 was released.

Yea they still sell very well allthough I wouldn't be surprised if the G500 sells better in the offline retail market than the MX518

amazon.de bestsellers

#1: MX518
#2: G500
#80: IME (don't ask my why)

amazon.com bestsellers

#1: MX518
#2: G500
#9: IME (in one of the 2 gaming mice categories)

Now imagine those 2 would be new releases and come with the prize tag of a new mouse, I would guess that the sales would be much lower. ;)

We need to find a millionaire to found a "not so profit oriented" gaming peripherals company, a lot of talented R&D guys would love to work for such a company. :D

but they dont have to sell them at a high price :\

i mean all of those useless gimmick functions that nobody needs like onboard memory, leds, lcds etc actually add to the production costs. you can also bet your ass that an avago 9500 sensor is far more expensive then the one mx518 v1 uses (forget what its called but also by avago)

so they could sell a mouse like that for a low price and make a profit

Ofc such a mouse doesn't have to be expensive but it still would cost real many, especially cause you want to put real quality parts in such a mouse and you still have development costs.
Just look at the (retail) price of basic gaming mice like a Kinzu, Salmosa or the new Pyra (wired), much less than all the high-end mice but you still have to convince people paying (lets say) 30 or more likely 40 bucks for a basic mouse.
I mean you can feel why the IME/WMO/IMO are cheap, you don't want that for a new release.

Yea the ADNS-3080 is cheaper than the 9500, optical sensors are in general cheaper than laser sensors (allthough the twin-eye is also pretty cheap, but you can't really compare that).
I don't have the prize for the 3080 but the 9500 costs 4$, most likely cheaper if you buy real quantity, Logitech gets it much cheaper, that's for sure.
Onboard memory is also pretty cheap, all in all it's a mix of the cheaper parts (and less parts) and lower development cost (software solutions for example) that make a basic mouse cheaper.

I don't say it isn't doable but it's not as easy as you might think.

Sure I can agree with that: There must be some reason no company is doing it after all.

I think the mx518 recently became #1 on amazon due to combination of lowered price + $15 manufacturer's rebate:

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1918382&page=3

I check that list from time to time and the G500 is usually on top with the 518 lower on the list, although I can't remember which spot it usually occupies.

Yo' nigaaz be trippin'

I be usin' ball mice and still own yo' all