im quite happy to pay 9$ (i think) to get a really good stream, i meen that was for a 3 month subscription but i would pay 9$ every time they had a big tournament that lasted a few days.

blah blah gtv was free so what, its not an option atm

I bought a 3 month subscription as well - and I'm happy with it.
The problem is (as mentioned) the free stream, which is unattractive for viewers who aren't already fans of "esport".

gonna never pay for tournament where players decide who whon who lost and not the RULES ))))

haha..... actually I agree with you .......rofl

who cares

Same here, but the point here is that it's not attractive for people that don't play QL. If i want to show a friend of mine some great games I better not show him the crappy free stream of ESL.

And that's too bad.. since it's important they get a lot of viewers.

The quality is decent for a free stream, and it's that way so users will want to purchase the EXTREMELY affordable ESL Premium TV account.

Take a business class or something.

And you take a reading class or something.

The problem is that a huge percentage of people, who dont already know esport, wont either want or be able to install the plugin or (if they went that far) look at the shitty quality and think: "wtf is this shit" and quit.
This is a huge number that never will watch ESL TV, because of this tiny issues and this makes ESL lose money in advertising and potential buyers of premium accounts.

They would have to impliment a completely different system (and possibly server) just to run the free stream. Yes, could be done, but at some form of an expense.

Business 101:
You have to invest money to earn money.

They have invested money.

So?

cymoZz' point is that their current investment is less than optimal. Therefore, saying that a different approach will cost money is irrelevant, it ony matters whether:

Money made through new approach - money invested for new approach - running costs of new approach - money made through old approach + running costs for old approach

is positive.

i set up a ustream page. the quality was better (or would have...uk upload speeds `-`), required no download and didnt cost me anything. cant do it because i dont think my pc is powerful enough to stream (the game slows down for me for some reason when i increase the quality a bit) but esl shouldnt have this problem.

£0 changeover. just embed it in a page and fill it with adverts around the video to make money with 0 running cost (excluding wages etc which will already exist).

erm have you seen the amount of problems ustream causes? seems to cause more problems than octoshape (just judging from the comments, also worked fine for me so far), in some regions their streams are unwatchable lagwise

ive never had lag with ustream
i dont have to download anything for utstream
ustream doesnt ruin my browser and require a restart

i choose ustream
or whatever holysh1t use

now if this was about you, esl should use ustream, but its about the majority.
and i am sure your problems can be fixed anyway

Then please tell me how. My steps are as follows:

- Go on to ESL stream
- See popup saying Octoshape is required
- Click accept/install
- Wait for it to be finished
- Start watching the match loving the action...everything is fine
- Open a new tab..click something...doesnt load...
- Open a new browser to try there...doesnt load...
- Close the stream and then try to reopen it...doesnt load...
- Reboot...Internet now works
- Start at step 1 and experience the same problems.

If there is no known fix for this then I can't watch the shit quality stream nor will buy the premium because I'll only have the same issue with the same technology. Do octoshit even have a forum for reporting issues or am I meant to email someone? Effort. Looks like I'll just stick to the vods and spend those 6 euros on icecream or chocolate

what i always did was download octoshape,close browser (that might be imoprtant, dunno, it is for some things), install it. open browser and enjoy.
what os/browser are u using? worked for me with xp and win 7 with firefox and chrome.

xp / ff

well try a different browser and install while they are not running. but whatever, i am no tech expert

doesn't work here with FF, only IE.

Doesn't work w/ Opera for me, the alt stream works in FF though...after it prompts me to run stupid Octoshape.

it works gr8 with ff here

hs.tv uses livestream

they used ustream and justintv but both services just suck

Which means ESL is using UStream for profit. Won't happen, because it can't happen.

??

If ESL was using UStream to profit from the stream, there would have to be some sort of financial deal between the two. You can stream stuff easily with UStream because you're just a basic user. If a company were to use UStreams services, they'd want money.

ESL can just host it themselves and save the money by using the P2P broadcast.

the internet is pretty huge yo...dont ask and they probably wont notice

unless you paste the link within the ustream chat program then theyd just think the stream is solely being viewed from their site directly rather than mainly viewed on some embedded page elsewhere

...dont ask and they probably wont notice

Yeah, I think companies want to avoid lawsuits.

ESL also has a kind of reputation to lose if they officially use some random free streaming site that is bitchy here. also: free esl stream has a far better quality (especially sound-wise)

2 problems persist for some: install problem are p r o b a b l y user generated and solvable. the upload-thingy is even less likely to happen because if you watch the stream, bandwith will be used up anyway

we should be happy about the professionalism esl brings to us (even the more critical people, fortunately, praise the caster team 2gd and esl.joe), I myself just started timing and stuff after hearing about it there lol

Exactly, I think the stream is fine, and that they're doing a great job. Octoshape has never given me any problems either.

Actually no. In fact, ustream are willing to partner with companies who want to use their services with a revenue sharing incentives from the advertising on ustream. So companies don't have to pay a cent. Go ustream!!

Ustream is unwatchable for me :)

look at the shitty quality and think: "wtf is this shit" and quit
:DDDDDDDDDD 110% right

Tru tru.

QL from a spectator's pov is trash. Needs more GTV imo.

Yes, absolutly horrid. Klonk-Klonk-Keel all day with gfx I would never set gtv to (beside the gfx I really hate those CPM Hitsounds outside of CPM).
POV switches all the time, 3 FPS@16x12 res.
Will attract new customers/players for sure, lol.

btw its like u collecting money for smthng like mobile.. when u have the money already u have 2 choises... 1) buy this mobile 2) continue collecting for lets say a laptop.. esl is in same shit imho.. they can still allow for guys to spec with hq but they stopped and put it for money..and also lost the potential to get x1 x5 x10 or even x100 ppl more watching the stream... my 5 cents and yes i know, my angrish is awesome also fu

Seems like you think that bandwith is handing out for free. ESL has a LOT of premium users and has been around for quite some time. Don't be a fucking retard, but since you're all businessman and shit, why don't you go and buy couple of ESL 100 MBPS lines with 1 TB storage and unlimited bandwith bitch?

Egd.

Also known as oxycontin.

you are constantly raged?

Awesome!

Tone down with the humor becks, cause you don't have it.

So awesome!

I'll take your word for it.

You do.

No. But I hoped it would keep you from replying to me.

You failed same as your sense of humor did.

I'm becoming more and more certain that you don't really know what "egd." stands for.

ägd?

äh, gee dee?

You're wrong, therefor you got;
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=egd

he was agreeing with you dumb shit.

egd

I wasn't agreeing with him. Learn to read you retarded Icelander.

rofl, you weren't replying to him.

Rofl, you're a retard. Well, that's kind of obvious and you already know it, but whatever.

Think you just owned yourself there buddy. You are 100% right that bandwidth isnt free and since its OUR bandwidth thats producing the lag-free stream I think we deserve better quality than the piece of crap we got now. Premium could be for extra high quality or some shit

ESL NEEDS MORE GIGABITS IN THEIR GIGABYTES.

People streaming other sports are more used to the idea of installing plugins. It's not unheard of anymore.

I found the quality was fine...Could be better.....but then again I could pay for the Premium and support the ESL and therefore see more top class events in the future.

you're a complete idiot gillz, but you already know that. free stream is good only when they show static images in studio. everywhere else it fails. they should provide free stream of bitrate of at least 400-500

I would rather watch a crappy stream or not at all, than pay for a high quality stream.

Can't say I agree with you. But I'm highly annoyed with ESL-TV, I didn't realize Octoshape was P2P until after I bought premium. So they're using up my bandwith to host the stream and I'm paying for it. I feel violated.

Get a netlimiter or similar program that can control the bandwith for individual applications. Of course that does not remove the ugly fact that they are trying to make money out of your bandwith.

I don't have to pay for my bandwith so it's not a problem for me.
Still it sucks if you do have to pay for it... Then it's actually quite fucking horrible:/

lol..... I didn`t realised till now that Octoshape was actually P2P.... that sucks big time ......ESL decisions are getting worse by the minute :)....haha , gg

I agree with getting rid of that piece of shit Octoshape P2P plugin, it's ridiculous.

and get english casters for the other games

Well i can see you point about Octoshape on the free stream but in general I don't have any problems whit it, it works well for me and if the P2P gives a lag free stream then np.

however the second part of your post was something I've been thinking about myself.
they could and should hype the matches whit some introduction of the players before the game.
it made me remember watching 'The Ultimate Fighter the Comeback' some time ago.
i really like UFC but if the gala doesn't have Superstars like Anderson Silva, Georges St-Pierre, BJ, Broke lesnar and so on i wont watch it, so this kind of show should not have interested me much but they made the introduction of each fighter in a way that it almost felt watching the main event =)

they went through the fighters career showcasing what their strengths was and so on making me feel like this could be the next UFC champ, so instead of watching two random dudes who i never heard/cared about, they got me excited about the match up and i ended up watching the whole season.

if you want to draw a crowd that isn't already from Quake i think this would be a good way, imagine how the pumped up the viewers would be after an epic introduction of Cooller and Czm (if he would come back) before the final =)

wall of text over.

agreed! nice player introductions would be great. and also a intro movie like the osl/msl does would be nice.

like these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTjgCdYxDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJAYPDL1Ii4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaKDqF9nd_4

+1

what the deal with octoshape? worked for me on 3 different computers and on linux, xp and win 7 also bandwidth shouldnt be problem for anyone watching this nowadays. the only annoying thing is that i had to manually deselect autostarting. but i am sure the esl isnt using it for fun, it helps them out a lot i guess.

Octoshape works for me fine, but judging from the comments here on esr there seem to be a lot of people who have problems with it. Also, I think, you can not install it without admin privileges.

Octoshit never worked for me. It's a complete trash.

in that case, you fail

octoshit sucks. i refuse to watch it as much as possible because it completely ruins my browser (FF or IE). I open the page and the stream works but after its opened as soon as i try to open a different page or refresh the stream it is a neverending white loading screen. i have to reboot for it to work.

ive uninstalled & installed again but the same problem.

for this whole tournament (.eu quals) i watched less than 1 match on the livestream...the rest i caught on the vod page after.

i dont see why you dont use ustream which requires no downloads, the interface is just as nice and comes with a chat option (does octo?).

I'd guess that you can make more money by stealing bandwith with octoshape and then re-selling it back to the victim.

Same here, I even use it at the school computers where I don't even have admin rights and it still works.

I have no idea why it fucks up so bad for other people. Might be their fault.

well, I must say lately I get a lot of those noresponse errors when octoshape is starting, asian championship I couldn`t watch almost at all, and using someone`s bandwith is not really good tbh... some guys still dont have flat rate, and pay by the MB, and if they don`t know this is P2P then it sucks a lot :/

youtube needs the flash player

isnt there also a flash stream available on the esl site?

i agress completely with the last part of your column.

the commentators should really be doing their homework.

i don't mean so flame, but it's their job ffs. I don't know how much of the organising process of the event is also taken care of by james and joe, but assuming they're getting payed for commentating, they should really put in more effort.

props to james for being able to talk 8 hours straight tho, and i really enjoy listening to joe, because he's a likeable character. The back and forths between the two are also funny.

But ffs do your homework. i said this probably a dozen times in different threads:

-get stats on the players, which maps are they best on, win-loss comparison
-have the players met in an official match befor, how often, how did the matches go?

and of course what you said:
-background on the players
-what did the players say in recent interviews and so on.

HOWEVER: if james and joe are incorporated in the organising process of all these events, and are payed for that, i'd have to say its fine and thanks for commentating anyway.

the flash stream requires octoshape, too

The ESL could also employ a team of remote casters to cover all the online leagues (this is their main business after all). One of the issues with the EMS seeming to disappear is the ESL did not stream any of the matches itself.

If they have teams covering all the online elements of these cups too, they have a wealth of information to pass onto the production team at the LAN finals, so like asked above Jay and Joe would have much more background information to talk about. They would also have lots of video footage to draw from for films to use in the finals.

Seeing as there are so many streamers at the moment (like myself and nvc for lvlup) doing it for free it wouldn't take much to get teams (from each nation?/gametype? etc) to cover all the online elements of the tournaments with high quality streams for practically nothing. Stick in some adverts and pay some poultry sum based on viewer numbers and see how much we drive viewers to the ESL events.

In terms of production at the LAN there are a few small changes I would make.

- Before the event interviews about the player with clips from past matches and a little bit of history about the players should be made. This could include visits to their home and work just to get a feeling of who they are and what they are about. Checking out their home setup talking about their play style etc. I don't mean hours of footage asking about where they go out with their friends. Just literally an overview.

- Get some story lines about the players like rivalries and comebacks/up and coming players etc. As well as this define players style of play with clips to show this off. I know they do this a bit but proper sports coverage do this so much more.

- The coin toss was kinda pointless and not knowing the coins we had no idea which side was heads and which was tails. Being some future sport based on computers should it be some computer based random draw anyway?

- Have experts do analysis with clips on the sofas, don't get the players on there before the match or after it, it gives too much of a relaxed feel about the actual tournament and a perceived separation between commentators and players is much better then making them all seem like buddies. In actual sports the players are treated like stars and the commentators way below their level not on the same or (as the ESL kinda bordered on) superior to the players.

- Have quick interviews with the players standing up in front of some ad boards like you see in every other sport with just them on screen. When sitting down they fidget and look very uncomfortable standing up stops this and clones the look real sports have chosen to go for after decades of production. It also adds this separation again from the studio and production team and the players and playing field.

When the trophy is given over have it in a completely different area to the production again (just an advertising board behind is enough) rather then the studio and don't have any of the commentators give it out. It has to be somebody seeming above that of the players. Some old man VIP like you see in any other sport (the owner of the tennis club, the chairman of the sporting association (streetrunner??? :D)). The problem at the moment with the production as it comes across as a boys club all around 20 something that have made their own tournament for them and their mates and so it kinda lacks that authority.

Have short map run throughs (pre-recorded), flying through the maps talking about the items. Include highlight clips from past matches of playing using those areas to do exactly what your talking about. Also quickly summarise the game rule stats like “RA gives you 100 armour up to 200 where it will slowly count down to 100”. “Rail does 80 damage”. “Quad does 4 times the damage of a normal shot so rail would instead do 320 damage” etc. Im sure you could come up with clearer ways of explaining it but still its worth getting these facts in to improve to understanding of the game, and I don't mean all at once, spread it out over videos and the commentators can slip a fact in here and there.

I liked the fishbowl cameras they had at the world tour finals on top of the players monitors (looked more modern and almost gave a real impression of the players concentration), as well as the way the players were basically facing each other and surrounded by the crowd. It added real tension.

- I would like to see some custom designed ESL Logo trophies with perhaps the games logo on too and the end to these pointless massive cheques. The more its moved away from the money side of things and towards the winning of the actual events, the more professional it becomes.

Hope I don't come across as critical, I still really enjoyed the coverage and this is just some feedback I would suggest.

The problem at the moment with the production as it comes across as a boys club all around 20 something that have made their own tournament for them and their mates and so it kinda lacks that authority.

that's what the whole production boils down to, and i have to fully agree with you on most of your points.

tho some of your suggestions are only possible with way more funds, they would make for a massively higher production value ofcourse.

other stuff like interviewing people while they're standing, are easy to do and bring a great effect with them.

also what you said about the interviewer seeming superior to the players:
you are spot on.. befor carmac does another interview he should wipe that smug smile off his face and stop making fun of players like strenx.

making it more about the game itself than about the money is a hard task tho i completely agree. sure money is the motivation behind most sports, but it shouldn't be front page news. it should appear that players are competing "for the gold" and not for "5000€".



on another note it would be interesting to know the size of the production team, as of now all the stuff written in this thread might be rather pointless if the team were to only consist of 3 guys +2 commentators or something like that.

too bad 2gd and carmac avoid posting in threads like this, i hope the atleast read it.

"also what you said about the interviewer seeming superior to the players:
you are spot on.. befor carmac does another interview he should wipe that smug smile off his face and stop making fun of players like strenx.

making it more about the game itself than about the money is a hard task tho i completely agree. sure money is the motivation behind most sports, but it shouldn't be front page news. it should appear that players are competing "for the gold" and not for "5000€"."

idd.

I think you are wrong about Carmac, and I think if you heard anything he said about the strenx interview on the Quad Cast recap, you would prolly reconsider as well. He even on a seperate occation praised strenx very highly, talking about how humble the guy is and stuff, so i really dont think he was making fun of him at any point.

About the strenx-Cooller interview he elaborated as well. He didnt mean to set it all up to make strenx look bad, and he admitted that he would have rephrased the question if should do it over.

Carmac does a great job with the interviews, and i think he makes them much more interesting to watch than the usual stuff we get from anywhere.

mostly good points, though all the whole video recap/highlights thing would require a lot of manpower and work.
but there is also stuff i disagree about:

- Have experts do analysis with clips on the sofas, don't get the players on there before the match or after it, it gives too much of a relaxed feel about the actual tournament and a perceived separation between commentators and players is much better then making them all seem like buddies. In actual sports the players are treated like stars and the commentators way below their level not on the same or (as the ESL kinda bordered on) superior to the players.

- Have quick interviews with the players standing up in front of some ad boards like you see in every other sport with just them on screen. When sitting down they fidget and look very uncomfortable standing up stops this and clones the look real sports have chosen to go for after decades of production. It also adds this separation again from the studio and production team and the players and playing field.

i dont wanna go into details but in general - this is no sport and its fine. the esl is slowly but surely building all this up and they are honest to their followers. i dont want cgs bullshit and i dont want artificial sports imitation where it isnt needed at all. getting professional is a slow process imho and not something you should mask over what we have to make it look über serious.

The interviews on the sofa are ok but most of the time the players are awful and have no clue what to say, they start shaking their legs or moving about in their seating position and just taking that issue out of it would make them and the viewer more conformable. It is also the issue that having the players relaxing on a sofa before a big match hardly builds up the excitement, it actually gives the impression they don't really care that much and it will be a relaxed fun game rather then a battle.

I don't want some CGS clone either but simple things like a separation between comment and competitor actually adds to the enormity of the event. Like we are there to watch these players perform and so are the commentators. At the moment it can have the impression that we are just eavesdropping on a fun night in with a group of friends playing for a laugh, who then might chat a bit with some in jokes.

Don't get me wrong its professional as is, but its something as simple as this that slightly reduces the importance of the event in my eyes.

Imho interviews rock, the whole show would lose a lot without them. The only complaint is that I fail to believe these guys sometimes. Like, you've just barely lost an important game and you're saying it's ok. I think you're saying that to come off nice to hundreds of spectators, that's not what you think. =)

So maybe there could be other things to ask rather than how they feel. Like they do on some TV shows. There is a TV show in Russia where pupils compete, and they basically ask each one random questions about themselves and their opinions, not related to the game. This way it's interesting enough to spectate, and it distracts pupils from being worried. That would be great to incorporate for ESL imho, and for players, too.

And after-interviews could probably include some other questions, too, instead of only 'how do you feel after losing' question that produces nice lies =)

As Tiger also say I believe the interviews are great as they are right now. Carmac does it well imo, but you are right that the players doesnt always know how to reply. That is just cus they arent used to doing interviews on camera I believe, and is a bit nervous in general.

But then putting them up in front of a sponsor board in an elevated location in front of all the cameras wont help that. Besides that it is a very unnessesary move imo. We dont need to imitate sport events like that. It would only make it look sillly and wannabe like. My guess would also be that the sofa kinda aids the players, keeping them more in a comfort zone during the interviews.

It is more to move the focus away the personalities of the presenters and towards the heightened abilities of the players. At the moment the sofa scenes are in effect a chat show style setup, something that is only seen in an entertainment program that you would watch in a relaxed way. They remove the tension and focus too much on the personality of the presenter giving the impression he is as equal as the guest.

Sure just standing them up in front of a board away from the studio might not get a better interview, but with the interviewer off camera and a clear disconnect between the "studio" and the "arena", it keeps the competition element of the show exciting and full of tension. It builds up the stature and prestige of the event.

I feel bringing people into the studio to talk to them (yes I know they actually play in the same space) gives the impression that its such a small sport and that ESL TV is more important then the actual tournament. When you watch football or something the impression you get is that these competitors are so focused and dedicated to their sport that with or without the cameras on they would be playing this match. With esports you get the impression most players don't care, only a small amount of organisations just setup their own little events which nobody but themselves really care about, and that people are only really involved for the small amounts of change that are dished out in oversized cheques, not in fact for the actual accomplishment of winning and being crowned champion.

Don't look at it from the point of view "Sports do it", instead think about why sports do things the way they do and why are these things quite universal?

Decades of experience of broadcasting competitive sports should have taught us something surely?

From my guess setting athletes up in front of a sponsor board would be to have a proper contrast for the cameras while interviewing. Secondly it is a matter of convenience. If 50 journalists have surrounded them, the only way to keep them visible for the back row is putting them on an elevated position.

None of this is a nessesity for us. It is one interviewer, and a couple of players. Tbh. you dont see athletes being set up in front of a board like that just for an interview with a single journalist. It is for press releases.

You do see it, here's an example video showing the standard for post-match/live sports interviews. One interviewer, one player, with the focus entirely on the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwpGAUTI5NI

That's pretty much universal for any interview that takes place "live" or while an event is ongoing. It keeps the viewers focus on the player and comes across as far more professional.

What forget there tho, is that it is an interview immediatly after the game. Studio interviews doesnt get set up like that, and since they play in a studio it would be ridiculous to drag them into a different room with sponsor boards to do the interviews.

Im not stating that the players shouldnt be more in focus, i really just cant see the point of doing it press release style, when they got a perfectly good studio with better surroundings.

They often have studio rooms setup at stadiums in sports where they could bring the players in for interviews, instead they have a little area setup like that.

They have a perfectly good studio, yes, so why don't they use it for something more than short, relaxed, Q&A's before/after games?

Well, at least on german tv, you have three types of interviews. The ones immediately after the game, like the vid posted, either infront of a sponsor wall or on the playing field. Secondly press conference style with select players answering questions from a wide range of people. But last and not least, you often have players and coaches join the host(s) for an interview in a studio setting, with the interviewer standing next to the player. They are all equally valid and serve different purposes, but i really don't see the problem with the interviewer being in the picture with the player.

The only real difference is the couch as i see it, standing up is a bit more professional at not as relaxed (relaxed often implying unimportant)

/edit

a bit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_68dS3Iuh0&feature=related

You get those interviews here too of course, e.g. the Soccer AM one (Football Focus on BBC do interviews etc, out of the studio but in a relaxed environment).

The key thing is, they are never during the context of game/match/tournament, they'll be done either after or before (Though not immediately) and showed at the relevant time.

The ESL TV interviews were all pre/post-game specific interviews, I can't remember but if there was any interviews when the players were now out (Again, not "post-game" style though) then the sofa/studio style interview works.

Not being able to speak German I have to ask, who was being interviewed? What was their role in that event? etc. Can't really comment on that otherwise.

We have this too, and you do see the interviewer but it's still a different atmosphere where tension has come and gone.

ESL TV is good and the way it was setup was by no means bad or anything.

It's just I don't feel it created the correct atmosphere or was the appropriate style for something that's all about competition first.

It kinda just gave the impression that these were just some guys who happened to be there rather than the highly skilled and practiced individuals they were. They weren't untouchable so to speak.

The game is a halftime interview with the manager of bayern munich, but it's not ment to be representative, as i can't find any better examples on youtube. It's just to illustrate the setup.

As i see it, it's like this:

1. Short interviews right after/during the game:
- Purpose: To catch short statements from those involved, high with emotions and little analysis

2. Longer interviews in a studio atmosphere, standing up with the hosts
- Purpose: Analysis, perspective, normally exclusive. Typically conducted shortly (but not immediately) after the match, mainly during live shows, either with coaches or select players after they've taken a shower

3. Press conference
- Purpose: To give a wide range of people (and often nations) access to the players

4. Post game discussion
Often sit down and with coaches only, after the match itself and everything surrounding it has finished, see this infamous interview with Rudi Völler e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0xIECkaMVA

They aren't mutually exclusive of course, but imo a press conference type setup makes little to no sense if you have only one or two people asking questions. Everything else would come across as a bit silly. 1 and 2 is where the money is mostly

- Provides additional sponsorship space
- Cheap, Easy, Quick
- Focus on the player(s) not the hosts
- Prevents "nervous"/relaxed behaviour (the way calipt held his microphone, av3k swinging his legs back and forth)
- Allows for greater honesty (the other player/team can't jump in and disagree etc)

Pre-game
Post-game (or the one vor gave for a one-on-one)
Studio Pundits (Also note the dress code, they aren't wearing football jerseys)

The first two have a focus on the upcoming/just occurred game and the team/players involved and any events. The third is where analysis and discussion of "experts" take place. You generally don't see the commentators and they only take over during the game, but naturally costs come into the equation here.

ESL TV is more akin to this, used in the wrong context. Notice how relaxed the whole thing is and separate from a specific match?

this. [+]

"Have experts do analysis with clips on the sofas"

are you talking about after matches? if so this isnt really feasible i dont think unless they instantly record to a machine...even then a break would be needed.

i liked the pre/post sofa interviews. especially:
fox/stermy pre-interview with the "ill rape stermy for his brother"
cooller/stermy post-interview after game 1 (alltimes agressive)
cooller/stermy pre-interview for 3rd place (kinda sad how down strenx seemed =()

edit: what you could do is have the interview on the sofa while a guy extracts clips from the match and then the interviewer could talk over the key moments as theyre shown

I think a basic rules video would be great. Reminds me of the WSOP clip that runs before the show explaining the rules. Something similar ranging from 30-45 seconds would be very helpful even though quake already seems so straight forward. If the video has an interesting frag or two, explains the weapons, etc....and isn't overplayed before every single match (perhaps once per playday). I think it can be very well done with proper editing and feedback in the creation of it.

Exactly.

I've been watching Starcraft TSL (TeamLiquid PokerStrategy League) and even not beeing live (they play replays of the games) they explain each map and how each player might play it to take advantage of it.

Also a video about the weapons (tuturial like) would be great.
Having like "Direct rocket in the face takes 100hp" (and showing for example some air rockets) or explaining the splash of rockets with some excelent kills running by in background.

For the rail it would be nice to have like double and triple rails (it can be a TDM /CTF match) and explaining it can go through multiple enemies.

Well tbh there should be tuturial videos about all this stuff.

Any1 wants to teach me video editing ? :P

ESL must hire him and give him a big salary ... actually any esports organization

the guy knows what he is talking about

Great post m8

You could also try some stuff on LVLup like gathering some stats to talk about during warmups or inviting the winner to talk about the game afterwerds.

Biggest change ever (i told u this before) would be making NVC stfu 10sec each minute.. that would also help alot with LVLup :)

We want to work on those things, in fact we have a lot of ideas some of which would already be implemented if it were not for the issues we have had.

this column should be major'd

I find it funny how the broadcasting progress for esport is completely backwards, while it could be a flagship, a model, how to use technology to produce better entertainment. TV is moving as fast as it can to GTV-like product where you can choose your own POV and interact with other viewers in real time etc. while the people running esports are still fantasizing about being an old school bigshot tv-producers and have no vision other than that. Does someone really honestly think that clumsy bandwith hogging streaming is going to be the future?

ofc it is.

GTV isn't really something ESL can fix though.

im guessing they would make a gtv if esl endorsed such an idea

Like all those TDM maps they make?

q3 gtv would probably work with ql with some bandaid fixes. i base this on the fact that there's been offline demo players created with ioq3, so really just an educated guess :|

i think mainly though is that it puts the pressure on them to act. they can ignore their fanbase, but can they ignore whats keeping the fanbase there in the first place?


that's irrelevant though. esl would rather make me watch some shit so pixelated i can't even see the crosshair while they use my bandwidth and spam me with the same 2 ads repeatedly though

fuck everyone

ESL do use GTV for other games when they aren't streamed.

id just aren't putting in any resources to QL.

"the requirement of an additional plugin is completely the wrong way to go"

Octoshape is great. It's so perfect that there are never any lags. With other streams it depends on luck, sometimes they're lagging, sometimes not. Esl TV never lags and never stutters. If I have to install a plugin for that (which takes 10 seconds to download), then so be it, that's not too much work.

its not P2P that is making Octoshape buffer free!

What is it then?

a very good content delivery network behind Octoshape.

Doesn't that mean that without Octoshape that network would be gone?

bullshit, premium lags often when there's a big load on the stream

that's what you get for spraying cum mindlessly ;P;P;P

))))))

I disagree with P2P, i didn't even know it worked like that... so in that respect i'm glad i have not paid for it.

However, if they remove that i'd agree with their model as they can't provide everything for free if they want to grow. It's for your benefit that they do this and thus they can bring you all of these quake tournaments - every little helps :)

why hate p2p?

see my thread about poor connection, i get throttled quicker (i stream too) and it's even worse (:

good points.

but you should think of price difference for stream delivery between p2p (octoshape) and normal stream push like on ustream/livestream/own3d etc. might be up to 5x. this is the most important point at the end.

regarding octoshape, besides the need to have a plugin installed, I dont like octoshape for wasting my upload (taking 3mbit out of 5!), and I believe that users who still pay for traffic are pissed even more.

Also dont forget that while using P2P you automatically share your IP with hundreds other users.


I dont see ESL changing its streaming solution, because otherways ESL TV would never get profitable. Solution they got at the moment is most likely the only one they can follow.

Good points, need to improve ESL-TV.

you just wanted to have "play more cq3" on the front page again, didn't you ?
):

I don't think you really know what streams were like before Octoshape. It's the best thing that ever happened regarding a stable stream. Even big companies like CNN use it for live streams because it's the only way to make the stream watchable for big viewer numbers from all across the globe.

CNN uses octoshape not because its stable/watchable, but because of low pricing.

I've never understood why some people don't like octoshape. Streams like Ustream, ufrag, justin.tv often lag when the viewernumbers are big and the quality of the stream suffer as well. With octoshape you get a pretty much perfect lag free stream. If you pay for your upload, which ridicules btw, then yeah it sucks but maybe you should get a new ISP in that case.

I think the premium stream should have a higher quality.
As long as there is a working octoshape for Linux, it's okay with me.

@cYmoZz

Sry dude but i dont see your point at all regarding octoshape.
Some are often mentioning GTV in this thread and that s something ESL TV cant create.
That said this is best solution so far in my eyes. You mentioned Livestream and JustinTV. I would rather hang myself then watch a tournament on livestream again. Tried it with dreamhack and ended up seeing every 10th frame of the game...
Regarding it s a plugin. Not sure what person is unable to waste half a minute on instaling plugin following simple instructions to watch hours of stream.

On paper there are few more solutions better then current but do some simple math and you ll soon realize how much it costs and then your premium would grow acordingly. Then what? Another thread about ESL TV would follow...

I would point out only 1 flaw from this thread. That s fact they dont inform you it s p2p plugin... Other then that i support them.

-Bump up the free stream quality.

-Having an additional overhead camera, alongwith the current face-pov camera thing, to show the players' keyboard and mouse so all the viewers can see the input intensity needed for a game like quake (or starcraft etc. etc.)

-Almost all of Disrepute's suggestions.

-Continue having the interviews with the players sitting/relaxing on the couches. If it wasn't for this, I don't think we'd have seen that epic Cooller Strenx vid. :> Enough of standing interviews with the repetitive robotic answers!

If free stream was better then probably most of premium tv users would never buy it again. Look at the photos from their studio, there's a lot of tech-stuff to run it well which costs a lot and all the crew also didn't work for free.

Free stream quality is not perfect but it is watchable and a lot of my friends used it and they are not complaining. I will buy premium once again for IEM final no matter what stream quality is, because this is the way I can thank them for all the good work and excellent show. This is worth spending money and it's opening a future for more tournaments. I want them to earn money and keep doing events like IEM for QuakeLive.

Not going to read all of that. My time is way to valuable.

But people, have you ever seen diablo's stream derquaker.com / own3d.tv

They offer pretty high quality stream without takin money. It's just the best stream there is atm. ESL should look into that. Give diablo some money and stream your stuff via him =)

ESL-TV is by far the most professional casting service Quake Live has currently (those are the only casts I watch, can't speak German). You guys should really give them more respect, unlike other casting companies James and Joe offer quality analysis of the games while keeping it entertaining.

@vkl - They don't take money. If you were actually serious about supporting e-sports you would pay for the high-quality stream rather than acting like they steal it.

if you're too cheap to pay 9€ for 3 months, then you shouldn't complain about bad quality free stream,since you're obviously the bargaining type of guy.

whats the point in offering a premium service with better stream quality, when the free stream has a decent quality aswell?

ppl with bandwidth limitations could try netlimiter to get rid of the upload

o rly

I completely agree with the Octoshape comments, but other than that I think ESL TV is doing far more right than wrong.

I'm not trying to say don't offer constructive feedback - I just want to make sure ESL knows how much we appreciate the current effort. It literally is the best esports coverage ever.

Edit: and I say this having watched only the free stream. Planning on getting premium for the finals.

you probably have to get 3 months tho anyways, so would've been better to get it befor the EU finals.

that's what i did atleast

I knew I wouldn't be home for a good chunk of the EU finals, so it didn't seem to make sense. Hopefully there'll be something interesting on in the three months following the finals, but €9 is totally worth it for one tournament anyway :)

I completely agree with the Octoshape comments

With which? Seems like at least as many people are satisfied with it as are against it, and typically only people who are dissatisfied are vocal to begin with.

Dissatisfied - I didn't read far enough to see any positive ones.

I think octoshape is fine as it is, premium quality could be a bit better quality.

I do agree that ESL could do with a free non octoshape stream for the users who have problems with the normal stream.

How hard could it be for ESL to re-show the Octoshape stream via Live stream/ustream and have it linked on the website?

that beta test premium stream quality was REALLY good wasn't it?

what could've been better?

I watch it via media player, so i have have it kept full screen. I wish the quality as good as the h.264 stream.

i watched the flash version on their homepage on highest quality and full screen and it was basically flawless

Yea the flash feed is good..

But i cant keep it fullscreened on my tv if i wanna do something on my monitor. I can through Media player.

yeah that is irritating, there needs to be some ff addon that just adds a "always on top do not steal focus" option

Yep, Infact thats the exact thing i said in a forum on here about the problem :)

hi

If you have two monitors like I do, you may like to have full-screen flash videos playing in your second monitor. There is a problem, though, that as soon as you click in a different window, the Flash goes to non-full screen. In other words, you can’t browse and have full screen flash on your second monitor.

There is a fix for this “security feature,” though. (Disclaimer: Adobe claims that this feature of auto-minimizing is integral to computer security, so proceed with caution)

1. Make sure you have Flash player version 10.0.22.87 (you can see this version information here).
2. Open NPSWF32.dll (probably located at c:\Windows\system32\Macromed\flash\npswf32.dll) in a hex editor.
3. Go to address 0×136340 and change byte 74 to EB.

I have tried this, and it works great. Original source here.

Try this, i will when home..

source?

Found via googling the topic. Check for youself. Top 2 links when i did "full screen flash dual monitor".

Top link will be youtube video with the same info.

k i googled it already, thanks

report back if it works. I will try in 2hrs

am at work atm aswell :D

Bah, i dont have no "74" on that line, i already have an EB along it tho. :(

xDDDDDDDDDD

Same here. But it's got something to do with having 64 Bit. Haven't find a way to fix it, tho :(

- remove the stupid coin flip with random coin that isnt even a euro(?)...anything would be better...computerised or even 2 cups on the table...one with a ball under..guess the right 1
- remove carmac from interviews. replace with slasher
- replace octoshit free stream with a better free solution. either ustream etc, whatever the vod system uses or hire someone else to do the free stream (lvl^, holysh1t etc...not derquaker)
- .azn music during breaks
- dont let people restart maps due to spawn whine...i saw cooller-avek recently (vods because i refuse to watch a stream that ruins my browser and requires me to reboot my pc whenever i go on to the esl stream pages) and map 1 was a complete joke.

2bad is starting to grow on me a little...he can stay for now

this is a good start

It's a German Euro.

the worst kind

I think it was a polish slotty

yeah, it's something polish

Good or bad feedback is always handy, and its always taken on board :)

I think the main thing here is to do with octoshape, so ill go into that a little.

1 - Octoshape has a huge CDN behind it (aswell as the p2p aspect) that makes it one of the few streaming solutions that are actually viable in terms of stability and cost. It has been proven time and time again that its pretty much the only way to go when it comes to handling such high loads effectively (ask CNN, the PGA, NBA and Nascar?!?)

2 - Some people seem to have issues with the installation, I personally never had a problem and even my completely technologically retarded girlfriend managed to install it on her own when she wanted to watch a show. Im not sure what goes wrong?!

3 - Some people have bandwidth limits, which is of no fault of their own. Refer to point one as to why we use octoshape, it sucks that you have bandwidth limits, but for the rest of the population, its the best solution :(

4 - People mention using a push service like livestream or ustream. Have you ever tried to watch a stream like that of a major event? Where there is a huge load on it? Its no where near as stable as a cdn backed p2p stream like octoshape. No offence to you guys providing streaming for the community, but if people sometimes complain of the stability when a stream for EMS TDM is on, how do you think its going to handle it when av3k and Cypher play the European Championship Final?

I understand that octoshape has its problems, as does EVERY SINGLE other streaming solution. I remember my handsome friend TosspoT wrote a great article before about streaming and why things are done the way they are. I cant seem to find it though. Link?

And honestly, like I said right at the start, we do read these threads and we do take things on board :)

It may be best solution for you to make money, but it's surely not the only or best solution for viewers. I remember WSVG running a 700k stream without octoshape while streaming to 100k or more WoW players, I doubt you are seeing those numbers with Quake. And yes, Turner Broadcasting uses the Octoshape because they are in bed with them. Octoshape had to give Turner folks a CEO position in their company though.

and there's a reason (one of many) that the WSVG is no longer with us :) Streams like that are *expensive*

On the other hand, business models that try to dump their operational costs to customers while still charging them for it, deserve to die too.

If you do not wish to pay a reduced price by subsidising the cost of your viewing with bandwidth, that is your choice

However, many, many people do understand that streams cost a lot of money and are fortunately happy to pay a small price that is subsidised by the use of their connections

Technically speaking, yes, we could offer a non-p2p stream, but it would be at a much higher price - in the GIGA days you used to pay per show, at prices around a month's Premium Days for just 1 event - I guess at the very least the prices would today still be the same

But that even 1 cent is a high price in a demographic that borderline cannot comprehend the idea that intangible, digital goods cost money, ESL TV have probably estimated that the extra cost of an having the extra stream at the moment probably outweighs the number of people who would pay for it

Maybe in the future that will change, until then it is your choice!

Haha at it changing in the future. If consumers let companys get away with this (imposing their expenses to the customer), like banks have done for instance, that will never change back and it will get worse over time. In any area of life, if the consumers dont want to take it up there from the companys, they have to have principals and stand by them.

Does something in Finland prevent new banks from being opened?

If I don't like the fees my bank charges, there are many other banks to choose from

For example, I live in Germany I want a VISA card as I have less options for buying on the internet with my EC/Maestro. In the UK my plain old bank account has a VISA Debit, but in Germany it seems none of the high street banks offer them. But I could change my bank account to a more expensive one (€10/m instead of €13/quarter) and get a VISA credit, but that sounds extortionate to me.

So now I'm looking at at least two internet banks that offer VISA for almost nothing. Though I'm wary of going with non-brick and mortar banks because they feel less safe.

However, I understand that brick and mortar banks have much higher costs and therefore are more expensive. But if enough people decided they wanted a VISA debit card and went to those banks, then I'm sure the high street banks would lower their prices and offer them like in the UK. I am not even remotely educated in business or economics but I believe this is simply Supply and Demand in a free market?

So now I can choose between not having the card, having one from an internet bank and feel less safe, or having one from my regular bank and paying more.

Likewise with streams and leagues, you have the choice about whether you watch the stream, watch low quality for free and pay with your bandwidth, or watch high quality for some money and some bandwidth

At least unlike other leagues, e.g. MLG, we do not prevent competition through the use of exclusive contracts meaning you can only watch the best players in ESL tournaments

Other events can compete with us and if enough people really demand to have a stream that is not subsidised with bandwidth and are willing to pay for it, then we would have to offer it in order to compete

Yes, just like in almost any other country (I would imagine in Germany too, and they probably follow the same IMF recommendations as everyone else) you need a license for banking operations, which is extremely difficult process. Banks are doing what they are doing (being greedy), because they can.

Sure it is difficult to open a new bank (as it should be), but nothing is literally preventing new banks to open, and therefore provide competition in order to supply demand for banks that don't charge the fees you mentioned, right? :)

If there are enough people who don't like it, then someone will see the demand and try to compete if there is enough profit to be made from doing so

Otherwise if it really is abusive then it is up to the people to make change through government :)

Thats not how real world operates though. Corporations are very protective of their turf, and will crush anyone who tries to get a cut out of their pie, and if that is impossible then they will buy you out. Bottom line is that consumers or people who throw themselves in the mercy of market forces will always lose in the end. People have to take responsibility and be ready to make short term sacrifices in order to get what they really want. Like in QL, if everyone had took the stance that streaming is unacceptable right from the beginning (and naturally acted accordingly by not going to the streams), we would be watching QL in GTV today. Or if today everyone would make it their principal that they will not tolerate P2P streaming, tomorrow something else would be in it's place.

Thats not how real world operates though. Corporations are very protective of their turf, and will crush anyone who tries to get a cut out of their pie, and if that is impossible then they will buy you out. Bottom line is that consumers or people who throw themselves in the mercy of market forces will always lose in the end.

Really? So there are absolutely no new companies that spring up to compete with larger ones and grow?

People have to take responsibility and be ready to make short term sacrifices in order to get what they really want. Like in QL, if everyone had took the stance that streaming is unacceptable right from the beginning (and naturally acted accordingly by not going to the streams), we would be watching QL in GTV today.

Alternatively: Those organisations running streams see not enough people are watching, and simply stop supporting the game with tournaments since they do not bring the ROI for the investment of the sponsor.

GTV is great for matches that can't be streamed, and it would be fantastic if id would offer it, but it is absolutely not a replacement for a stream from a sponsor's point of view.

Or if today everyone would make it their principal that they will not tolerate P2P streaming, tomorrow something else would be in it's place.

Yup, less tournaments and/or prize money and/or more expensive streams

There were quake tournaments before ESL and there will be quake tournaments after ESL. Esports is interesting business, because most people who start running something related to esports want to become entrepreneuers and esports, with their favourite game particulary, offers them a platform which they are very familiar with and especially with GTV did not require lot of investments. Id is supressing their own target audience by disregarding the importance of GTV, but still I dont really see us running out of young guys who know games and want to try their wings on business world, so there will always be some tournaments popping up, as has been long before ESL started with quake. So there will be another organization to replace ESL if it goes down. And ads integrated to GTV and shown when people are actually paying attention to their screens would be alot better solution for the sponsors.

ESL's and quake communitys interests are very far away from each other when it comes to broadcasting games and lobbying id about what is most important for the game. I know guys like Carmac most likely have good intentions in their heart, but they are not willing to make the short term sacrifices and go back to teaching english to polish immigrants untill a platform emerges that is completely in line with what is best for the community .

Oh, and is it really my choice? Seems like a lot of posters in this thread (and i'm sure they are not the only ones) did not even know that they were "subsidising" some of the stream cost in their internet bill. Let's just call it then for what it is; a hidden price inside of the announced price. I dont know about Germany, but in many countries it is flat out illegal to not inform the consumer of all things that can potentially raise the final cost. Though naturally this would only apply to premium users whom you have a contract with.

You have a choice between not watching, watching low quality for the price of your bandwidth and watching high quality for a small fee and still subsidised with your bandwidth

Also ss mentioned at the end of my last post, we have not gone out of our way to force you to watch our events through exclusive contracts like some other leagues do or have tried (MLG, and in the early days PGL)

Though I will admit that the information on the ESL TV page could be improved. The P2P stuff of Octoshape is in the FAQ but it seems to still be in German only :(

if holysh1t & lvl^ can provide a free non-octoshape stream why cant esl?

if esl can provide a tournaments around the world, why can't lvl^ and holysh1t? (not being flippant, an answer to both questions is the same)

lack of finance
ustream costs nothing though

watched last christmas yet? :*

exactly, ustream costs nothing, and lvlup/holysh1t make nothing (or next to) from using it

when/if lvlup/holysh1t have a full time tv studio to pay for including expensive tv studio equipment and at least a dozen full time people working for them, we will see if they continue to use ustream :)

If it's free why wouldn't they?

Because it doesn't make enough money?

If using ustream is profitable enough then I look forward to seeing lvlup and holysh1t becoming full time broadcasters in the near future

we are not trying to make money

that's fine :)

That's a different issue.

The free stream doesn't make you any more money.

The free stream does produce revenue indirectly - the more people who watch it, the happier the sponsors are

Yeah, but that doesn't change if you use another free streaming solution for the free stream.

I believe ustream begins to cost money at a certain point?

Hi

In UK you get unlimited, non capped connections. How on earth would streaming through u-stream and livestream.com make it any more expensive than doing it through octoshape? I'm not sure how Germany works in respect to capping but i can't imagine you are forced to have capped connections, and i bet your connection isn't capped considering you're a professional company streaming almost 24/7. I also would put money on you not paying by bandwidth uploaded, so your point is almost irrelevant.

With lvl^ it's different, we have an uncapped premium service channel which other organisations would have to pay thousands for in one year, so yes, in some situations like with livestream.com.. to stream in HD is an issue because you're charged a fee. But afaik ustream let's you stream completely free

The only benefit you get out of octoshape as fas as i am aware is that it doesn't lag for people on 512k from 1995, but then i'm not that well informed as i've never used it and thus never read feedback on it.

In all, my problem with ESL is that you do not tell us, or atleast, i was not clever enough to realise that it was P2P. Is there a chart or something i can look at to see the potential amount of upload it eats?

I'm not bashing ESLTV's work though, it's great, just need more honest text before you press the 'view' and 'buy' buttons, regardless of if it says somewhere on the octoshape small print when we click "install" :)

A quick look of the terms of use for ustream has a huge red flag which I believe would make it totally unusable for us (or any other organisation or company that wishes to own their content), have you read 4.c.i?

the livestream free terms of use are the same, and premium doesn't look much better

Dude ESL charge a very reasonable price for their premium stream atm, and it is great value for money. I think its a very fair deal they offer us right now, and i would not prefer them raising quality for a higher cost. That would make it a too expensive, and unattractive offer to get premium.

I've seen ustream live streams with over 2000 viewers and it worked fine (no lag)...how many viewers did you get for the free stream if you are able to get a reliable figure (not the numbers you give to potential sponsors)? I don't see why you treat it as one or the other...if you can have 2 streams coming out (premium/free) then surely you can manage a 3rd stream via ustream too or get someone else (holysh1t/lvl^) to cover that one. You still have the page viewing minutes/number of viewers that can be shown and can embed it in a page full of sponsors for revenue.

Surely 2000 on ESL TV free stream and 500 on ustream is better than 2100 on ESL TV free stream.

Effectively by not having a ustream (which could generate you money still if embedded somewhere) youre losing money rather than gaining unless you dont pay for your vod bandwidth. I watched 1 map on stream..realised my browser was dead and then rebooted & didn't watch again. From this experience there is no way I would buy premium because I assume it uses octoshape too and so will ruin my browser. Instead I watched the remaining games on your VOD section racking up the bandwidth figures. It is not that people can't install octoshape since all you do is click install it is because for some, the game starts but all other tabs stop and refuse to load...then if you f5 the stream that refuses to load too.

PS did you mention me before/after 1 of the matches?

I do not agree with you at Point 4, behind ustream and mogulus there are huge CDNs aswell and they're much bigger than the one behind Octoshape.
both ustream and livestream have ten/hundred thousands concurrent viewers and many hundred thousands in peak times, lots more than octoshape.

the only point in Octoshapes hybrid-p2p are the costs, which are assigned to end-users and their ISPs. and thats also the answer on your point 1, why CNN Turner etc are using Octoshape.

Its still not proven that p2p works well for livestreaming and adding some stability. I believe the CDN is still pushing more than 80% of stream, which makes Octoshape almost a push-stream too.

anyways, as I already said above, I dont see any other solution for ESL TV being better than Octoshape, due to costs and quality at the end.

how do you think its going to handle it when av3k and Cypher play the European Championship Final?

You mean the World Championship Final? :P

SO,
We play a free game.
But have to pay for stream.
30 euro/ year is a lot of money to watch some games!

I would pay it for the game with gtv.
or they should stream a lot more ql matches, for 10 euro/year.

Defenitly in case they're using my bandwidth, wich i also have to pay for.

/edit/, ok its not that much, but still :)

of all the things to complain about, please don't complain about the cost. it's so fucking cheap.

why exactly do you have to pay for a stream? just watch the free one or buy prem for the time you need it and not for the whole year.
also the esl is keeping competitive quake live alive atm and deliver us the best tournaments with broadcasting that is quality wise far ahead of everything else, they really deserve the money imho.

You're paying for a premium service. There is a free option. The quality isn't as good as it should be, though.

*could

why should they make the quality any better? you can distinguish everyhting that's going on.

and who ever is too cheap to afford himself 9€/3months subscription, or has bandwidth limitations should really be happy with any crappy quality they get.

But it's not really free, the payment is just hidden from the consumer. Even if you dont pay directly for your upstream, your ISP does, and they will consider those expenses when they change prices next time. On top of that you get to watch commercials, which again cost money to a 3rd party company, and they will consider those expenses when they decide how much your next computer is going to cost. So in essence, they are double dipping and we are the "marks".

Bah, it's as much a hidden price as for everything else on the internet creates traffic (which is everything).

And while it's true that the total amount of traffic will make its way to the ISPs cost calculation, the argument is largely academic as far as the esl is concerned, considering how very little upstream esl traffic contributes to global internet traffic (and even global user upstream, think torrent etc). Besides, everyone uses more traffic each year, certainly since web 2.0 took really off, and so far prices have universially dropped (at least in relation to bandwidth).


The only thing I'll give you is that it should be made clear that octoshape uses p2p when entering a premium contract, and it's in the german faq (can't check the english one, though it seems to be missing)

There is huge difference in cost of download and upload, thus it's not the same as "everything else on the internet". But like I said in my earlier post, it's a matter of principal. Of course it's very lucrative and "affordable" model for a company, when you can dump big part of the expenses to the customer. But from my point of view, if people are going to let it slide, I'm screwed. The outcome for me will be the same if there is one big scam or 10 small ones like ESL. Do you think when companys can "afford" to run their business the right way they are going to go "ok, now lets start earning less and start paying our internet bill ourselves"? No, Thats not how capitalism works.

Take a stance and stand by it, or get big one in the ass.

wtf, you pick weird issues to take a stand on.

There is no difference in traffic cost as far as the isp is concerned. The distinction really only makes sense with regards to the enduser, otherwise traffic is traffic.
And I pay a fixed amount of money for unlimited traffic, no matter up or down, so why shouldn't I decide what to do with it? I really don't get who's exactly supposed to get screwed in this scenario.

You could argue that isps count on the fact that people don't use upstream and calculate their costs accordingly, but that hasn't been true for several years now. And with faster internet connections making things like online storage and in the near futur cloud computing possible, the difference between up and download is becoming moot real soon.

Taking a stand against double dipping in consumers pocket is weird to you? And you are free to decide what to do, but we are all going to get screwed later down the road when this practise becomes the norm (and not exclusive to businesses operating solely on the internet). People generally are too hedonistic to see what is good for them in the long run, thats why we have consumer laws. I'd rather see consumer activism play that part and skip the need to drown us in laws and directives.

The cost of bandwith for ISP's varies. For the cable company I used to work, some time ago though, surely paid more for their customers uploading.

Again, it's not double dipping. They are offering a service which requires you to use both up- and downstream bandwidth and you are free to either buy it or not, knowing that the service offered is most likely at a price point that wouldn't be possible without p2p. You are free to allocate your own resources as you see fit.

And you are free to decide what to do, but we are all going to get screwed later down the road when this practise becomes the norm (and not exclusive to businesses operating solely on the internet).

Oh stop the melodram, all that's happening right now is that finally a resource that has been lying idle for a long time is being utilized. It has nothing to do with bad business practice and is not even remotely related to anything outside the internet (seriously, wtf).

Again, the only thing that will happen is that isp will calculate with higher consumer upstream traffic, and that's it.

It has already happened when the banks went to internet. It had nothing to do with not affording to run banks properly. It had all to do with them having a service that is necessary for everyday life and wanting to make more money from it. Best way to get that money was to transfer some of the costs to the consumers by making them run their errands on the internet, with their own expense of course. Same time the normal banking services got huge fees. Same principle, make money by transferring costs to customer, while charging them for it: double dipping. ESL is just peanuts in the big picture, never claimed anything else. Like I said earlier; matter of principle. This thread just happens to be about ESL being involved in similar exploits by taking upload capacity paid by someone else and re-selling it.

And obviously from the examples in this thread we know that running streams without using consumer upload is very much possible.

You are complaining about the free market or what? Products have a price, and you can either pay for it or not. "Shifting" expenses to the consumer is nothing but putting a price tag on a service. Whether that's good or bad for the consumer is something that has to be decides on a case by case basis and cannot be generalized.

And obviously from the examples in this thread we know that running streams without using consumer upload is very much possible.

No we don't. We know that running an add supported stream that gives up all copyrights might be possible (though stability is still an issue), and we know that certain companies obviously have the funds and financial support to provide high quality streaming.

Rigging the price by shifting some of the expenses to the customer is opposite of putting a clear price tag on service. And of course you can generalize it, you have to do it to a certain degree. Generalization based on history and knowledge is what all consumer laws and competition laws are based on. They protect people from their own hedonism and ignorance. For example while young people might not understand what will happen in the long run if we let companys get too dominant or even monopoly positions, the history does. It has always led to exploitation of the consumer, so we can generalize that it shouldn't happen anymore. Naturally as in everything in life there can be cases where there is evidence to the contrary and those have to be taken in to consideration.

You are regurgitating very basic economic principles. In some cases companies will include hidden expenses, in some cases they'll misuse their market power, etc. If they do, certain mechanisms insure (ideally, we all know it doesn't always work) that companies are kept in line (consumer protection legislation, market adjustments, anti trust etc).

But nothing here lends itself to generalisation, and certainly not to support an argument against p2p streaming. They only aspect that's really relevant here is that the esl should be more forthright with how octoshape works (and they are in the german version), but I already conceded that point way up top.

/edit

Just to make it clear, cause you're still spouting this nonesense about double dipping.

You pay 9 € / month for a premium stream that uses p2p. That's not double dipping, that's providing a service for a price under certain conditions. Who knows, without p2p the cost might have to be raised to 12 or might not be feasable at all, since consumer might not pay at all once the cost excedes a certain amount.

See, for me taking peoples bandwith and re-selling it back to them is double dipping, even though people might be knowingly volunteering for it (some most likely because there is no alternative, monopolies are bad for consumers).

But the table spins both ways, so I dont think we are going to reach any conclusions here.

We are going in circles since you really don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

Here is an example: Say you have a carpenter who's willing to make you a table. You can either buy the table for 30 € or bring your own wood and pay 20 €. According to you, the second option is double dipping since the carpenter resells you your own wood.

Only to make this example more realistic, you have an unlimited supply of already payed for wood.

I would say that if the carpenter would take the excessive wood that you have paid for and tried re-sell it to anyone, it would be indeed double dipping.

No, what you're saying is that no matter what, if the carpenters accepts even a little wood from you (pun totally intended) than he's double dipping, or are you suddenly saying using upstream is ok as long as the amount of upstream traffic does not excede the downstream traffic?

They only aspect that's really relevant here is that the esl should be more forthright with how octoshape works (and they are in the german version), but I already conceded that point way up top.

Yes, that's the point. They're using my money(bandwith) to host the stream they're also charging me for without letting me know I'm paying double.
*

he already agreed that ESL should put that in their English version as well, if it isn't already. So that can't be your issue.

And who came up with the idea that paying for the subscription meant paying only for the bandwidth?
How about it's also paying the staff's salaries, the camerras, the energy, the studio, the prize money, etc.?

he already agreed then kept arguing

user1234 issue was with using upstream at all, not (only) with it being hidden

you should really stop surfing the internet right now, there are ads everywhere. If my computers becomes any more expensive, I'll be blaming it all on you!

Do these sites use my upstream to run these ads? If not, I dont see a case of double dipping.

ah, so advertising in itself is very acceptable? They don't try to screw you with it?

Most of them are trying to screw you in a way. We could sure use a bit less marketing and more substance, but ads by themselves are more acceptable than double dipping, because there is evidence about cases where they have actually benefited the consumers. But because of the information available on just few clicks today, I personally try to buy only products that I have not seen advertised anywhere.

but you do realize that paying to people to do streams and others to organize events does cost money?

I'm just asking because you seem to have quite a lot of that "I want it all for free" attitude...

What is it exactly that you want to know or say? My discussion is about business models, some of them are bad and some of them are better. Not everything is meant for making money out of, though.

Yes we are talking business models, except that your business model seems to be: "Give everything away for free and don't you dare to break even."
Critizising a company simply for choosing to have two ways of income rather than one, is really short-sighted.

Sure, there are business models that don't earn money, but I don't see a reason why this has to be one of them.
I can't see how spending upload and a short time watching ads that let me see this for free is bad.
I can't see either how donating some of my flatrate upload (which most people have) and with that
reducing the price for a subscription is necessarily bad.

And most of all I fail to see how wanting a company to earn less money and possibly go bankrupt in the long run is helping the viewers.

what disrepute said

couple of euros is nothing for 4 days of 6-hour quake duels. the price is hilarious.

GTV

The award ceremony was puke worthy...either wear a suit or informal...dont mix the 2 just because some b-listers in hollywood did it 2 years ago

what a final though $$$ cant wait to watch the world final vods because i doubt the stream will get fixed...cypher-avek-cooller-rapha!!!

fix your pc if you care so much. try different brwoser, use a linux live cd or install another os with virtual pc. its obviously a software problem that can be worked on

way too much arguments here but what most people seem to forget is that ESL is mainly an organisation based on CS, also its based in Germany (where cs has a huge following) and thats thousands of nerdlings who want to watch intel friday night games etc, a livestream.com premium account including 15.000 viewer hours costs 1250$/month (+0.17$ for every additional hour or 0.25$ for every GB over 1TB traffic) for 1.7MBit streams (for ustream that's 11.000 viewer hours +0.20$/hour after that, 879$/month base price) from a business perspective that's just not possible - for huge matches you can easily get 10.000 viewers with CS here in germany alone and you'd easily blast through those 15.000 viewer hours in one week
so really, that stupid octoshape is their only real choice (and yes i really really hate it - especially since they're making millions a year and then they're too cheap to give it better quality) and the low quality is determined by the viewers average uploadspeed - if they made it 800kBit maybe 10% of the viewers could match that with their uploadspeed - the rest couldn't so the complete streaming network would collapse

also i don't give a rats ass about either ql and/or esl

nice way to knit pick...

seesh.

I love ESL streams for QLive, its very enjoyable and makes for good viewing and to be honest, for $50 sub fee and an enjoyable few days worth of gaming...it sure does beat going out and wasting $200-300 on drinks etc :P

Give me 1080P so I can stream to my media server and I will pay. Tyvm.


:(

(or at least mobile support so I can watch from my phone when I'm at work on American time *cry*)

i-phone ok? :)

Regarding octoshape, I'm running it on linux, and what I totally love about it besides stream stability is the possibility to watch the stream in standalone playback software, in my case mplayer.

Especially, I don't have to worry about browser stability issues nor look at ad ridden web pages. Besides mplayer being much easier to control through quick keyboard shortcuts than some dumb flash player plugin. And for all these advantages I'm more than ready to spend some of my upload bandwidth.

Obligatory sidenote: fuck flash.

Its quite simple, Octoshape is affordable - ESL have a bill to pay and using something that is pure p2p like SOPCast is too unreliable. Plus SOPCast delivers terrible stats and any value in streaming is in its audience.

The next problem is the gaming audience cannot handle a lot of adverts, because they hate the concept that people are making money from eSports. own3d as an example gets flamed for its 30seconds preroll ads before fragmovies yet its the way they can make money and pay their bills.

That being said Octoshape does only work about 50% of the time.

that's 50% too little

I think "they" hate the concept that someone else is making money on their expense. And they are right in doing so. Take GTV for example; id's official explanation is that "it doesnt advance esports". So basically the huge majority is going to end up with the short stick, so that the very very small minority could make money out of their hobby. A man has every right to be disgusted with such situations.

id's official explanation is that "it doesnt advance esports"

source? (nowadays anything is possible at id but its still obvious bullshit and has been discussed a thousand times)

1:05:25 on live on three #26.
it is taken out of context slightly, he expands to give a more satisfying answer (for us as esr users) a bit after.

ID's other argument for lack of GTV could be simply, it costs us money we dont see that back.

id's official stance is lols.

So you'd rather have a more expensive stream that lags whenever there are more than three people watching....

the only thing i'd really like to see improved is the quality on the non-flash premium stream. don't know if there's a reason why it's a lot worse than the flash one but watching on a stand-alone media player provides a lot more comfort, especially for multi screen users.

Maybe I was wrong about Octoshape. I didnt know that you are able to install it without admin rights now, and there seem to be less people that have problems with it as I thought.

Though there should be a short explanation of what Octoshape does and why you need it, when the installations request pops up. This would help a lot with the acceptance of such program.

Just remove the Octoshape crap no need to install some 3rd party crap software which most like doesn't work or is flawed.

But I really don't care about ESL free services are way better and before ESL change i bet ya most will be using free services.

?????

I see so many suggestions that are billed as "easy" and "should do that"... yet people don't quite realize the time/effort and cost that comes into many of those ideas. As someone who's been behind the scenes of broadcasting for sometime, it's really frustrating to do these things. In most cases the people behind these productions want the SAME THINGS YOU DO. But time, resources, and money are all major factors.

There's a reason why it takes 300+ people to run a live 3 hour television show. The fact that most of the production teams behind eSports streams are 2-10 people is pretty fucking mindblowing.

I can't argue with the Octoshape stuff because I myself use UStream and we've supported 50k+ users before.

With that being said, there's some good discussion here... thanks for the read!

UStream doesn't work for everyone though. Even with a 100mbps line some people have serious lag issues with UStream/Livestream etc.

Please add PayPal as a payment method. CHEERS

in germany you can use paypal

that doesn't really help me now does it?

was just trying to point out that it may have other reasons than them not wanting to add a paypal option, as this options seems to be available in some contries, and in others it is not.

it looks like you can use paypal in finland too?

http://tv.esl.eu/de/premium/order_paypal/?off...lass=esltv

ESL TV website -> Subscription -> Changed country to Finland

damn yo. you are right. maybe i was too hasty when trying to get the premium. well at least i can catch the world finals with EXTREME QUALITY!!

The stream quality is more than fine, not only its pretty good for a free service, you also have to consider that more quality means more bandwith requirements and if you really want QL to succed you must understand, average quality stream that dont buffers > hi quality stream that stutters. In fact i believe what the free stream is lacking is a lower quality option, i repeat nobody keeps a streams that buffers. Its a lose-lose situation. One spect pissed off and one less viewer in the stream for the sponsors.

I agree the stream quality leaves a lot to be desired; but, on the other hand, I think the quality (of presentation) of the coverage (out of game interviews, commentary) has been so great that I stop noticing after a while. Also, not having to wait for buffering is a plus, and the quality of the graphics used for the in-game portion of the stream is so dramatically reduced to begin with that it doesn't make a HUGE difference in my eyes.

That said, it would be nicer if the resolution of the stream was maybe a little larger for the free viewer.

I subscribe to the premium service. As far as I am concerned it is very good and much better value than my virgin media tv subsciption. I have not had any trouble with the plugin.

Those who are not paying don't really have any right to complain. You get what you pay for at the end of the day. The cost of the subscription is tiny anyway. The whole year cost me about same as a month of tv. And if you do pay, you are increasing the chances of more tournaments happening and generally encouraging more peope to get involved.

There are a few things that I would like to see. I think the cameras showing the players' in-game reactions are funny- particularly when cooller rages! I think another good thing would be to show the players' technique with the mouse and keyboard with the camera before the game starts. Also showing the players' screen would be interesting.

The interviews are good but I think it would be better to wait a while after matches until the players have had a chance to cool off. If you are going to ask someone, "how do you feel?" the minute after they lose a key game, the answer they want to give is pretty obvious, "shit, how do you think i feel?!" Open questions are important in interviews but timing them properly is important.

I think the schedules should also give players a chance to gather their thoughts before there next match. You can't expect them to play their best and put on a good show if they are burned out from the previous match.

The last point I would like to make is that I think you should have english adverts. I am pretty sick of watching the same german mobile phone adverts. Either, you should remove them for premium subsriptions or just force germans to watch them.

And finally, good job James & Joe. Top banter! And I love that Carmac puts his best outfit on to present ( a liverpool top!) Good man!

Maybe interview them right in game, admin could pause the game at arbitrary moments and then, while an ad fills the players monitor, the interviewer could ask: "Av3k, why did you miss that rail?"

lolol

thats a nice idea :D

Free with decent quality would entice alot more viewers..

and a pony for everyone too!

get back to your pay per view quake live helmet sniffer

i find it quite retarded seeing people giving up all their benefits without moaning

I'm quite surprised that there are so many people who subscribed to ESL TV just because of Quake, but I guess that proves that the guys are doing a good job. Like it was mentioned before several times, it's just not possible to host a high-quality stream for free. The productions costs are just not comparable to the hobby broadcasting you get anywhere else; they're using a real TV studio after all.

What might be a comfortable solution for sending out links: Don't just have monthly subscriptions but also make it possible to pay for one single day. Combine it with some kind of super-simple voucher system so that a normal user can gift someone one day of Cookie-based ESL TV Premium, no registration required.

Octoshape's only problem imo is that you can't watch ESL TV on a mobile phone, but who knows, maybe there'll be an app for that or something. <:)

Oh, and of course I agree about giving more background information about the players, but that's not just something ESL TV should pay attention to, but basically all esports media.

That for the relation to quakelive people wait for matches, and there show a stupid picture from WOW

Why so it is not fair? fuck ESL

and everybody rooting for using a free stream service like livestream.com should know not later than today that this is an even worse decision