I blame the French

me too

jonesy
PETA
lindsay lohan

no, not lindsay <3

Leave Jonesy out of this or I'll dip you into the river you're named after.

niggers
john romero's lazy eye
black people

Joe Quesada
The Man Who Was Thursday
Gordon Durie
The feet of Nikolaus Karl Günther Nakszynski
Scottish transvestites
Fred
Diarrhea
U2
Hello Kitty
Ed Gein
Tønsberg Fotballklubb
The Rocking Dildoes
Zimbabwe
Lupus
Corndogs
You

lol corndogs

they used to call one of my mates a corndog

he was sort of a dick

but he was wrapped in dough

sheep. for distracting jamerio - he'd have singlehandedly coded quake6 by now if it wasn't 4 those damn sheep

Don't you know he has already developped and sold quake 6 AND blown away all the money on hookers and cocaine. Get a life you know.

Dem fukken sheep

i know you weren't serious, but:

we've SEEN how vq3'ers react to new maps. that's why cpm had 30+ and you lot had ?2? for dm in 10 years? and ?3? tdm maps (and you owe 4 of those 5 to cpm's players and mappers btw, go figure).

the ONLY sensible view that any developer could take after looking at vq3 would be "well, they obviously don't want new maps, because they never have yet". just imagine how screwed you'd be if not for syncerror and method correcting that inference eh? :P

i don't know any more about asset stuff for ql than anyone else, but one of the knock-on effects of the vq3'ers traditional attitude is that talented / promising / whatever mappers just give up, and either quit mapping outright or switched to scrub / grg / etc games instead.
making GOOD maps is HARD, and making GREAT maps is nigh-on impossible. there simply aren't that many decent mappers to go around in the first place, and with the asset demands id has for their other stuff as well, i can certainly see it not being easy to get anyone with even half a clue that you can actually "spare" for the time it takes to make something good enough for *us* to be happy with it.
course, i could be completely wrong.

me, i blame arQon. it's traditional. :P

stop being such a loser... seriously. it's great news the community wants new maps right now.

i could reply in a similar fashion like how quakelive is a vq3 clone with thousands and thousands of players while your precious little cpm failed hard and has a total of ?2? players right now - but who cares?

introducing new maps is much easier when the community is a small group of dedicated players and that is what you once had with promode. it's not even in the slightest comparable to the situation we had with osp/vq3.
i'd add the obvious: new gamemode meant new maps so you tried out lots, big deal. as you said making good maps is hard and that's the reason why it's so difficult to introduce new maps. most of them just weren't good enough. you putting the blame on an 'attitude problem' (funny you say that) is being dumb on purpose.

what the hell do you do on this site??

1337 posts, leet in name

10/10

The size of the community is no excuse, Starcraft has a large community but because there are dedicated mappers making maps suitable for pro-level play (which are actually better than the preexisting tat like Python and Lost Temple) the community moves on. All it requires is for the competition bodies to put some new maps in the pool and some pro demos to get released, then you'd all move over like the little sheep that you are.

> All it requires is for the competition bodies to put some new maps

There were always problems with servers. As for OSP community league admins were unconvinceible to introduce new maps because of two reasons: 1) new maps won't be on servers, 2) we don't want to force players to play unknown maps, let them play dm6 again. QL is different now - at least there is no 1).

I blame players. In truth people don't want new maps that they don't want to learn them. Players are afraid that they won't own on new map and their skill would drop down because they don't know new map well.

it's no excuse. he just said it is easier to introduce new maps to small communities.

and while you are comparing sc community to vq3/ql community, can you please name a few dedicated mappers making maps suitable for pro-level play in vq3/ql community? because i could swear there is none at the moment at least not for ql.

There are mappers with the ability but they're not making them ATM for a number of reasons.

1. It will never get played.
2. You need a team of alpha and beta testers, this is hard to achieve.
3. Unlikely you'll get your map into QL.

Guys like sock, hipshot, fjoggs, stormshadow, vamp1re and others are perfectly capable of making great competitive maps with the right help and guidance.

i wouldn't call mappers who are not making maps dedicated :/

why would they make maps if nobody is going to play them?

well at least i could imagine myself doing something i like just for myself. i could do maps just for making maps if i had the skill and knowledge. but i'm assuming that this is mostly enthusiasim that new mappers experience and the "old schoolers" don't feel like it anymore.

but i wouldn't still call them dedicated.

and what makes a mapper? at least for me to call a person "a mapper" he/she should be making maps. no one making maps = no mappers.

please name a few maps that were good enough to be adapted to pro-level play but didn't. and don't say pukka maps because, even tho i'm by no means a progamer, i didn't find them particularly good for duel.

My guess is that making a map you are not going to receive any feedback on feels like a waste to "mappers".
Imagine you make a good map for a game no one plays. Then a new game comes out, and its missing good maps, so people think "hey lets use that map nobody ever played!" Now due to gameplay changes, your map, despite being good, needs a lot of tweaking. The problem is that you already spent a lot of time fixing and tweaking your map for the other game. And the changes in the gameplay are so radical that you spend hours to completely revamp the map, only to find out that you would be better off creating a whole new map.

About good maps that people rejected, there are plenty out there that never got used, granted they might not be as good as ztn or aerowalk, but they certainly were good enough to be used in tournaments. I think the problem is the approach that is used tho. You shouldnt come and say "HEY GUYS IM REMOVING DM6 AND PUTTING THIS NEW MAP IN THE POOL OK?" because people are obviously going to say no. Instead, you should say "Alright so there will be this new map in the pool this year, but all older maps are still going to be there. By the end of the year there is a vote and if you dont like this new map it wont be used next year/season." This would allow experimentation of new maps every year, while still allowing people to play their precious dm6/ztn/hub.

Unless it's clearly a terrible map then this shouldn't be the case.

Q3TDM almost broke free of the tyranny of dm6/dm7 when osp5/osp6 replaced them in an EC (And poq3dm5 was added too) only for dm6/7 to be reintroduced and all the teams went back to picking those.

If there had been a vote to remove osp5/6 (and keep dm6/7) you can bet they wouldn't have continued to be used.

so i wouldn't call them mappers nor dedicated. that's the point i was making replying to ix's post. you cannot compare sc community to vq3/ql community because vq3/ql community doesn't have dedicated mappers.

and i'm still asking you to name a few good maps that were not used. you just saying that there were is not convincing me :(

pukka maps, moonsoon, phrantic, hub3tourney1, a few cpm/osp maps...

like i said i don't consider pukka maps good enough for pro-level play. phrantic is cpm24 and i think too small for vq3. haven't seen a q3 version on monsoon so don't really know how it would play. hub3tourney1 is nice. not as good as what we have now but yeah i think it could be played again. it had its chance tho in 2001, don't know why they didn't keep it.

fo

pukka3tourney2 is awesome!

yeah true, just needs to be tidied up imo.

i think the main problem with pukka maps is they are called puke

vamp remade dmm4 for cpm, he's got my vote :D

there's no gloating in that post of mine: just the facts, from someone who was actually there.

just because we did a lot better than you for new maps doesn't mean we wouldn't ALSO have benefited from having MORE good ones coming in every couple of years as the old ones got played out.

--

i remember the sheer HATE that rhea got for "forcing the osp map pack on everyone" - which happened to include ospdm5, the "last new vq3 tdm map ever".

i remember the only way to get most clans to play a new map at all, let alone playTEST it and actually help MAKE it good, was for citizen, syn, etc to run comps that lasted months and make each new candidate undroppable for x weeks. or for bw/cb/etc to do the same for a season - which they never could, because the MAJORITY OF the clans in those leagues simply refused to. whether everyone was just scared that "their best" map would be the one moved out of the rotation or whatever, i don't know - you'd have to ask them.

the attrition / entropy of mappers was inevitable, just as it was for every game before q3 and every game since. but to try and pretend that the attitude of most of the "community" didn't greatly accelerate it is either absurdly naive or equally dishonest.

YOU may not have been like "them", since you reacted so strongly against the simple truth that you obviously don't feel it applies to you - but it doesn't matter to the outcome. if you weren't, you were in the minority, and you lost the war.

> it's great news the community wants new maps right now.

duh. but it would have been BETTER news if they'd wanted them 8 years ago, and 6 years ago, and 4 years ago, and had bred THAT as the "culture" of q3 maps, rather than NINE YEARS utter stagnation.
can you not understand the feedback benefits of that MENTALITY in the community, even without the influence it would have had on the decisions id had to make back at the start of ql?

ok then... just the facts, from someone who was actually there.

ospdm5 was not the 'last new vq3 tdm map ever':
clanbase ( http://clanbase.ggl.com/demolist.php?lid=516 ) added poq3dm5 and later ospdm15 (rehash of poq and some other map) after lots of testing of various versions of the map in their cups.

q3liga(kuh3liga) had almost every half decent custom map in their rotation for years. barrysworld(jolt) even forced maps on specific weeks, i had the misfortune to play some of the most horribly constructed levels there. those leagues were huge in numbers and a lot of fun eventhough they made it clear from the beginning how much they cared about new maps whatever the consequences are.

as far as i remember people whined about the size of the osp update mostly because it 'forced you' to download a bunch of maps no one ever cared about.

if 2on2 is also 'vq3 tdm' (it is for me) then ztn and t7 also got introduced into the map rotation, let's just quickly forget how awful ospdm11 was yet it still got played.

just because we did a lot better than you for new maps doesn't mean we wouldn't ALSO have benefited from having MORE good ones coming in every couple of years as the old ones got played out.

who is this 'you'? who is this 'we'? ...are you ok?
while i played lots of vq3 i also spent a lot of time with ra3/ctf/urt/et/qw and less but some with cpm and warsow. to be honest i know of no one who religiously stuck with one game(mode) over the years... well i don't know about you :)

duh. but it would have been BETTER news if they'd wanted them 8 years ago, and 6 years ago, and 4 years ago, and had bred THAT as the "culture" of q3 maps, rather than NINE YEARS utter stagnation.

we have to disagree, i guess. i'd go so far to say that the various vq3 tdm cups and leagues were in the past at times a little too desperate to introduce new maps and forgot how hard it is to create a great one.

ospdm11 is awesome.

i have horrible memories of pure rage when i played it in various 2on2 cups... almost as bad as you coming on to the scene and kicking uwu out of the eswc qualifier back then. man, i was so mad at you :p

apart from that my memory of playing quake4 completely vanished btw that was another year (or two?) spent playing something different too.

haha :P

most ppl would probably be glad if we'd get some of the old tdm maps back so we can at least have a proper 5 maps tdm pool again =/ (cpm4/ospdm5 for example)

old maps arent new maps


stop living in the past

they'd be new to ql

how can maps from a 10 year old game be new in a 10 year old game

just because ut2004 was released on linux doesnt mean that dm-rankin was a new map because it was run on a different platform

ql is 2 years old and the maps have never been in it :P

(not that it matters but the difference between q3 - ql compared to ut2004 windows - linux is probably quite a lot bigger)

btw. by now it hardly matters if the maps we get are old or new, its about fucking GETTING THEM ALREADY. And creating a new good tdm map is a really hard task even for an experienced mapper so by taking old maps it would not only speed things up, it would also guarantee that the map is actually playable.

if you want to play 10 year old maps then play q3

recreating old maps will not speed up the process of creating good new maps

what id should do is something like the "make something unreal" competitions: http://www.makesomethingunreal.com/phase3_winners.aspx
with the promise of some prize and the winners being included into the game you get cheap labour and im sure the process of good new maps being created would be sped up...especially if they either had a long submission time or phases like MSU has...that way people could enter phase 1...if their map doesnt win they could make a new map for phase 2 or try and improve their current map..then you have good maps in the finals

"recreating old maps will not speed up the process of creating good new maps"

what the fuck?
why recreate if they are already done.

and hello? we ARE playing 10 year old maps right now.

i mean making them so they work in ql i.e. creating a map which was already made...recreating...like when campgrounds was made for ut2004 and q4 (cant believe how that map is equally shit in all games)

old maps is because theyre lazy but it doesnt mean they should port every competition map from q3's history...they should include hub, ironic (ut2k4) and come up with new ones...and remove campgrounds completely

ps t9 is good and new? the other 1v1 map sucks ass though

"recreating...like when campgrounds was made for ut2004 and q4"

but they had to make em from scratch in ut2004 and q4, for ql they'd just have to load the map file, add some billboards into them and compile it again ... so thats not even close to the same :)

im sure some shit might be moved around a little...didnt they move the bridge on dm6 to cater to the slight change in movement?

thats 30 mins of work compared to one week of full time work for creating a map from scratch...

dont you know ? :D

after agreeing completely with zealot i would like to point out that cpm 1v1 had also a 5 map regular mappool. 24,22,3a,1a and that one with the lift near ra and shaft, can't remember the name.

and stop using the martyr status. i think no one has mentioned your name at this site for a year or so, at least not in the same negative way as it used to be when we were under your nazi reign.

cpm15

Realistically, in general, only 3a/1a.

only poles play 1a

cpm22 clear #2

cpm4, ospdm6 and ???

As far as I know ospdm5 was made for VQ3 and Teddy played VQ3.

dm6/7/14tmp were out before cpm and the abuse guys played plenty of VQ3?

"i know you weren't serious,"

phew thanks for clearing that up

Come on, don't be hard on yourself. You are only responsible for shitty mods. Cheer up.

rofl, seriously?

i think the t7 and t9 (amirite? house of decay and furious heights) have been quite well received by the osp herd even though they are relatively new to them,

and yes, i was being serial

The only reason you guys played so many new maps is because VQ3 was and still is a long standing tournament game and yours wasn't or never was.

As a result it was a lot easier to be open to playing new maps because there were no consequences to dumping hours into a map that nobody cared if you won or not.

You can't seriously make a veiled attempt to bash a community while showing no concept of why it was that way.

You just discredit yourself when you try to identify why something is the way it was and then miss out the FUNDAMENTAL reason why it was that way.

Most VQ3 players would play "the simpsons map "if there was a tourney that supported.

That's bullshit, the number of casual players outnumbers the tournament players by a factor of 10 if not more. They could have switched at any times, but didn't.

A lot more than 10 I think.

Casual duel players still followed the top players and wanted to be good at those maps too. That's why if you look on quakelive at anytime of the day the duel maps are mostly on dm6 and ztn.

CPM players never had any of that, so that is the ONLY reason they played more maps.

VQ£ players have ALWAYS been more pro-gamer orientated.
Look at all the top players, they pretty much all have a history in VQ3, new players see that and follow suit.

That's why id made a big mistake by including so many old maps.

They made it easy for a community to fall back into the old traps and in turn drag new players into the same rutt.

Go on Quakelive duel anytime, 9/10 most of the servers will be old content. Its not down to chance.

Most new players don't even know that professional gaming exists, and map like DM6 are still played to death. It's not about emulation of higher level play, it's about it being ideal to play on.

Dm6 is an exception because it works well with duel/ffa/tdm and its been converted to at least 3 other games off the top of my head.

Most Vq3 duel players are aware of the pro scene, they see great players playing ZTN/DM6 and they want to be like them.

Even if they don't know of the whole pro-scene, all players recognise a good opponent and follow their trends.
If they see good people playing ztn, they play it too, certainly more so than randommap.pk3

In this case...
id made it easy for a community to fall back into their old traps.
Which in turn influenced the new players (to QL) to fall into the same trap.

I don't have qlive installed, but something tells me if you checked the duel servers, most of the maps will be those that are in the current gaming competion line up.

Shesh, you only need to look at all the XERP shit to prove my point.
The only reason the Q3 community moved to CPM is because they belived the mod was being used by the CPL.

That just goes to prove they are in fact very diverse, its jsut they go where they think the competition is.

The small minority of VQ3 players actually play duel, so this doesn't matter. Anyone who DOES play duel has to play on a server, and thus is stuck playing on the maps it has. This problem is suffered even worse for those who play duel in VQ3 since the game is more about fighting the map instead of the player.

The complaints about xerp were many months after people were using CPMA, and nobody even noticed it until ix pointed it out! It's like the whiners who now think that mouse prediction is so bad, even though they never had a problem with it, or even knew it existed, until it was pointed out to them.

You're still going on about CPMA and the CPL, but, despite the complaints about xerp, people STILL didn't go back to OSP. Despite the CPL going under, people still didn't go back to OSP. Despite the complaints about everything in QL, people still aren't going back to OSP/CPMA. It's not that people go where the competition is, it's that they go where the players are. ESR users like to play as if they are elitist, but they only give a shit on the forum. In-game, they only care that there is an opponent to fight, and will gladly do it no matter how broken the game is.

I'm not disagreeing that the game needs new maps, I'm just saying that it really doesn't matter in the end. Just like in WoW, people will come to the forum and complain, but most of them will just play the game in it's broken state anyway. Between id and this community, Quake has no chance of ever being a serious game.

People never switched back because its hassle. its hassle for server admins to know if they should change or not.

They only did so with CPM because it was backed up with a major annoucenment.

There was no major reason to go back to OSP, other than a difference of opinon. Plus the game was right at the end of its life and quakelive was on the Horizon.

The advent of CPMA didn't delete all the OSP servers. There were still PLENTY to play on, and it's not hard to start your own.

Figure that a few thousand players are playing QL, several hundred visit ESR, a few dozen took part in the ESR community league, and a select few were even close to being able to care about the balance of the game.

Players are either not qualified, don't care, or both. The people against CPMA and CPM are trolls. Even though they complain constantly about what QL lacks, and have no reason to believe that the things they want will ever be put in, the people still don't go back to CPMA or OSP.

As such, this isn't an argument for or against either one, but proof that the support of the players (especially on ESR) has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the game.

i really have no idea where your hate for cpm came from?

he was fed up with hating himself so he decided to hate cpm instead

Given your nationality I think you're probably just projecting.

sort of like when jamerio calls everyone a no life loser.

he's bad at it.

"That's why id made a big mistake by including any old maps."

Fixed that for you.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1814475


zing

most obvious reason: money

but seriously: it's impossible to grant rights from mappers who disappear

I swear to god, if I have to play Demon Keep one more time...

Why are you playing it to begin with? :/

Every server I play on loops through the same four maps. Must be my skill level or something.

If you're playing mostly ffa then yeah, I think there's some bug in the rotation; I remember someone bitching about it on the forums. No idea if they're looking into it, tho.

always talking about lack of new maps
what about fixing the numerous bad or average one available in the 1st place ? it's quick and would do good to ql, more than adding 1 or 2 new maps on top of that crapish mountain
but we agree on something : unfortunately not enough good maps

q3dm12tmp TDM layout thanks.

I think that's a very good idea

BLAME CANADA

I'm looking at YOU, Gillz.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1811321#pid1811321

i forgot the powers that be, the establishment, and status quo

global warming

people are too conservative about anything like this

You keep asking for new maps, but with new you actually mean the Q3/CPM maps?

Whats new about them? What are you so scared about? That "new" players might actually beat your ass on these BRAND NEW maps in a couple of month/years, if they were to be released?

definetely Bush

Cheney too

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/GtkRadiant

lol

considering the maps, I can probably get ahold of dRuzli who made (ospdm6) if anyone wants that and I think I've proposed that to SyncError, but I think he picks the questions he wants to answer which probably means that he doesn't like the idea of old tdm maps in ql(non-baseq3)

-Sunshine
-Moonlight
-Good times
-Boogie

women

twilight

i blame this guy : => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEtIoGQxqQs&feature=related

and here we are again:

to approve or not to approve?

Why not aprove?

older than the internet.

hey, i actually seen it for the fist time

then you are younger than the internet.

Afro ninja 2 is where the money's at!

it's the city council's fault

that you crashed your car?

the jews, cuz there is a hot girl just next to me and she is hot, she was looking at me but she has a boyfriend and he know kravmagah and i dont, just a little jiu-jitsu :(

trolls in


http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1811319

ghost busters

British Petroleum

rock'n'roll


and violent video games

How about DDOS attacks?

Russians
the society
Mario Draghi
UKIP
muslims
homosexuals
feminists
ISIL
Bill Cosby
Dota 2
Zero Hedge
the NSA

matt damon for attempting to dock

mad daemon?

syncerror and vedic guy

lol this thread.. :)

me, i suck.

freemasons

YOUR MOM!