If ever there was a way to put the final nail into pc gaming and further discourage pc devs then this is it.

good.

don't know if you saw that, but the author's are actually game devs.
Which is why I found this interesting in the first place.

/edit

this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demigod_(video_game) being their current project, so possibly it's "just" a marketing stunt

This is just a PR stunt :) (both companies with demigod on their homepage?)

Do these people look like game devs who represent the masses?
http://www.stardock.com/about/management.asp

they're probably just trying to suck up to gamers in the hope that their new game gets some exposure and gets treated better by its audience.

"hey dude these people really care about us".

both companies are small time. Its not something that people will embrace, especially with the looming recession and the knowledge that people will just install the games, and take them back.

I agree that the timing hints at pr, but pr is not necessarily about fooling customers.

Also games like Total Annhilation, Dungeon Siege and Supreme Commander by the one party aren't that small.

Anyway the pr at least worked a little with me cause I actually looked at their wiki pages and that of the games :) so here's some random quotes:

and "Stardock is still improving the AI's capability through a series of updates."

on the other hand: "Stardock's anti-piracy plan is that players must complete product activation with a valid serial number before they may receive any of the several game updates."

"GameSpot nominated GalCivII for its 2006 "Best Strategy Game" award."

"According to Stardock's CEO Brad Wardell, as of March 2008, Galactic Civilizations II has sold around 300,000 copies in total"

"The Dark Avatar expansion pack is the highest rated expansion pack for a PC game in history"

"Sins of a Solar Empire, like Stardock's Galactic Civilizations II before it, comes without any DRM or copy protection on the disc. Stardock's CEO, Brad Wardell, has stated that the game has sold nearly 200,000 units in its first month of release itself"

o/c that's wiki so I you can't be scertain it's all true but seems to fit the picture anyway.

also, on the down side:

"Reselling
Reselling copies of the game is against Stardock's license terms. Resold/used copies will not be supported, meaning that the buyer of a used copy cannot download game updates"

I wonder if that would stand in the EU with the policies regarding licenses etc.

but in the end I've been followind demigod a little cause I like dota, so I guess if I like the demo I'd rather buy that instead of a game from a pub/dev that gives me an unfinished game and wants me to deinstall alcohol 120% so that their spyware (securom) works.

Stardock have sold quite a few games, they're a bit different though, with very adamant no-copy-protection policy and the like. I like the initiative. They're good guys and they often make good games.

Regarding taking them back; you're allowed to return books to book stores with a receipt. Sometimes after reading them, if you're fast.

It's easy to do, but I don't do it. Not many people do I suppose, because people want to keep what they bought. If people want to pirate they will pirate, there's not much stopping them from that, going on any torrent site and downloading it in an hour is still way easier than going to the store and buying it, installing it, returning it with some arguing and forehead sweat, and then going back to play it.

Yes but a videogame costs like 80-100 dollars and there is a bigger incentive to get that money back as its real money you can do something with.

20 dollars for a book, god I spent more than watching dark night at the cinema. It's the sort of money you don't mind losing for a bit of entertainment, thats why I think games should be cheaper, cos more people would buy them and there would be less incentive to pirate/take them back.

Can't you just watch the dark night outside for free?

When I was like 8-13 I only bought budget games like EA Classics or Virgin White Label et cetera so like £10-15. The only time I seem to buy games now (note: I don't pirate them either as if I want a game I just buy it) is on steam which seems to be a fair bit cheaper than stores or even websites like play/amazon.

So, yeah.

Yes please, not gonna happen in a million years though :(

QUOTE
1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.

Never in a MILLION years would a store allow this.

How many people would purchase a game, JUST for the CD-Key, then return it? EVERYONE

It's a gamers responsibility to know their hardware inside their machine, and check the box to see if they can run it.

If they can run it, and the game doesn't render properly, INSTALL NEW/BETTER DRIVERS! Don't mope and be depressed that your game doesn't work, show some ambition and intelligence and FIX IT

QUOTE
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

QUOTE
3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

QUOTE
4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

QUOTE
5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.


If it doesn't, fix it. Install new drivers, change your video settings, etc.

QUOTE
6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

QUOTE
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.


Like with Steam, system works pretty well. Although, it would be a huge security problem if every game developer put the FULL game for ANYONE to download on the internet. Cracks/hacks/exploits would be found 10x faster.

QUOTE
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.


? This doesn't even make any sense.

QUOTE
9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

QUOTE
10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.


Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

Also, download a SIMPLE no-cdkey program. It's legal ASSUMING YOU'VE PURCHASED THE GAME. (www.gamecopyworld.com)

All in all, this list is terrible, probably written by some 15 year old kid who knows nothing of business practices and common financial problems within gaming businesses. Common sense, really.

Half of the points you are making are nonsense. It's a trade. Of course you should be allowed to cancel it if you are getting goods that don't work or isn't what were promised. Of course they can't install shit to your computer without your consent. Like 99% of users even bother to go through all the hassle to return anything that cheap anyway.

If you get a game that you don't like, tough luck, that's your problem. Piracy is insane right now, if everyone could return games for a full refund, people would torrent the game, go to the store, install, use the CD key, return it.

And yes, they can install the software on your computer. It's called reading the TERMS AND AGREEMENTS

They can easily put in there 'You will allow us to install software to monitor the validness of your software".

If you don't want it, the guess what, you DON'T AGREE, and you don't install. Tough luck.

It's not getting a game you like, it's about getting a game that actually works. Your argument is stupid. The cd-key isn't your property if you've cancelled the trade. It's like saying you can shoot innocent people in the head because some of them might turn out to be murderers in the future.

What stops you just going to the store and lying to them? The arguments made in this "bill of rights" are stupidly fucking funny :D

If something is hard to guard or stop, it becomes lawful - interesting angle.

You think a business like that is going to rely on the HONOR system?

Yes, returning games would work assuming the CD key can be emailed to that games developer, and turn it invalid. This really only matters to Multiplayer games. Single player games don't even matter, it's so easy to torrent them it's ridiculous.

Maybe if everything was run by Steam. Maybe if you could buy a game in Steam, have 30 days to 'return' it. It uninstalls the game, removes the CD key, and also makes the CD key invalid.

So if in the cd i get, i authorize the company to install drivers, and in reality it also installs fucking spyware to empty my accounts, I should only be responsible for it?
Are you kidding me?
That's too easy for companies to make you sign an agreement, fucking you between the lines (they do it every day, like internet providers), some are already doing it in a continuous basis (like my internet provider, or my wonderful phone company). That's why asociations to defend customers have been created.

And even if you had the time and willingness to read that shit in police 5 before playing a video game (!), i doubt every gamer has the proper knowledge to understand every single thing they right, on a legal or computer science - point of view.

Companys owe us something, and have to be restricted/ forced to explain in a comprehensive manner, and for every John Doe, what they're selling you.

youre retarded for 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10

ty

Never in a MILLION years would a store allow this.

Not in thrid world countries I guess, but in the EU we already have that kind of consumer protection ;)
As if it was the stores' decision....

Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

welcome to the world of producer - consumer relationships, it exist almost everywhere except in the computer games industry, and some consumers don't even notice...

Hint: It's common knowledge that you get consumers through good products and keep them though good service. There's lot's of literature on that, read up before stating bullshit.

If it doesn't, fix it. Install new drivers, change your video settings, etc.

I think he actually explained that one in more details. The point is that minimum requirements should be for the detail level that is shown on the box and in trailers, not with everything on "low".

QUOTE
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.


? This doesn't even make any sense.

Maybe not to you...
What would you think if your demands a fingerprint id everytime you get in, just to prove that you are you? Or your coffee machine? Or movie DVDs?
May sound different, but in the end it's exactly the same thing as having to put a CD into your drive every time you start your own game. Effectively it means everyone is considered a potential thief until he proves his innocence but inserting a CD.

And especially since no-cd programs are so widely available it's even more pointless...

All in all, this list is terrible, probably written by some 15 year old kid who knows nothing of business practices and common financial problems within gaming businesses. Common sense, really.

And this one made me laugh long and hard :D

YOU are a 19 year old kid with no experience in business while the two author's of this text are CEO's of game and software developers / publishers.

Sure you are free to disagree, but implying that you actually have more experience... HAHAHAHAH ROFLMAO

The point is that minimum requirements should be for the detail level that is shown on the box and in trailers, not with everything on "low".

erm, that just doesnt make sense.
usually there are two kind of requirements, recommended and minimum.
and (in theory) that is exactly how it should be. consumers need to know what pc is needed to play it with decent graphics (like on the box and in trailers) and they need to know if they are able to play the game on their outdated system when they are willing to play the game the fastest way.
so i dont get why minimum req. should be anything else than what the name indicates...

the actual problem imho is, that the min. req. will often only get you 5 fps, so its still practicly unplayable :(

I disagree, the "it's always been that way" argument shouldn't be valid.

Minimum requirements in the literal meaning, should be what you need at the very least to get what is shown on both the box and the trailers.
So, they should be able to display those graphics, however it does not mean it should be constant 40 frames or something.

Recommend should then be the requirements where you get those detail levels AND smooth gameplay.

Gaming companies owe the gamers NOTHING. They don't owe us shit, they don't need to listen to our demands.

welcome to the world of producer - consumer relationships, it exist almost everywhere except in the computer games industry, and some consumers don't even notice...

Hint: It's common knowledge that you get consumers through good products and keep them though good service. There's lot's of literature on that, read up before stating bullshit.

you cant tell the producers and publishers how to run their business. its their choice.
the law gives us some rights so we dont get fucked by the market, but thats as far as it gets with rules. the rest is business.
if they decide to please the customers and earn confidence then finde, i will suppoert this kind of behavior. but why does this article (and you) claim that everyone needs to run their business like that? thats just not how our system works, in any industry...

of course what you say is correct, however the list is not a "what companies should be forced to do" but a "what rights should gamer's have" list.

And gamer should be more aware of the possibility to punish developers for bad products and through that force them to deliver good wares.
For example if I buy a couch and upon delivery I notice that the fabric is ripped I don't wait for someone to come and sew it, but I demand (and get!) my money back.
Furniture customers have achieved that right, so why can't that work with software?

A faulty product is a faulty product, be it systemmatically or with single pieces.

I think he actually explained that one in more details. The point is that minimum requirements should be for the detail level that is shown on the box and in trailers, not with everything on "low".

That's a bit much. EVERYONE knows that the gameplay shown in a trailer is at MAX graphics, they're doing nothing wrong. Minimum requirements = Low, Recommended = Med-Max.

I do find out that the readers have business experience, but you're in NO position to say I have no business experience, you know nothing of what I've done in terms of schooling and pure experience. Yes, they have business experiences, but that doesn't mean they have to act like a whiny little bitch about everything. "OH BOO HOO, THEY WON'T LET ME RETURN A GAME AND MY 7800GT CANT RUN IT ON MAX GRAPHICS".

Seriously, they need to understand that this world isn't a fucking rainbow gummie drops ponies running around everywhere fantasy land. Shit happens, tough luck.

I worked retail, I know exactly why those rules are in place. So people can't come in and get shit for free. People come in buying COD4, going home, coming back, and saying "...it doesn't work". Really, they just went home, installed it, kept CD key, and are trying to pull a fast one them. When people came in regarding games, I'd tell them to MAKE SURE their PC can run it, and if they don't think so, don't buy it. Single player games shouldn't even have CD keys, it's almost pointless (unless allowing download able extra content).

Then you have 55 year old mothers coming in buying Crysis for their 11 year old son and expect to play it on their $800 Compaq they just purchased. Yes, I wish stores would have a return policy when RETARDATION applies to the situation, but unfortunately there isn't.

minimum requirements = low at 30fps is what I think you mean

"That's a bit much. EVERYONE knows that the gameplay shown in a trailer is at MAX graphics, they're doing nothing wrong. Minimum requirements = Low, Recommended = Med-Max."

So that's the way it works know?

The companies give us bad descriptions and we have to accept it? Just take a step away from how it is at the moment and what you are used too, and think about how it should work. What should minimum requirements mean to a customer looking at a box, not what they do mean.

And again I see this list more as a "in a perfect world" scenario, however one that would be possible for the devs / publishers to achieve.

"you know nothing of what I've done in terms of schooling and pure experience."

Well, seeing your age and the way you write about this topic I can make a very educated guess, cause I am in the last months of my double diploma of engineering and business administration, so I do know that your viewpoint differs from the coomon views in this field. ;) And I'm not talking about shop-level retail, but strategic marketing and after - sales services, a field becoming more important by the year.


And last of all what exactly is whiny about asking things like the delivery of finished games and fixing bugs afterwards?

You need to look a little further and see that gaming companies seem to be the pretty much only ones who get away with that shit.


Finally, again, we actually have shops and laws here that protect customers. If the game is broken and you can prove it you can always give it back.
And as someone else said, it really is easier to click on a torrent than going out investing money and the persuading someone to give it back later.

I worked retail, I know exactly why those rules are in place. So people can't come in and get shit for free. People come in buying COD4, going home, coming back, and saying "...it doesn't work". Really, they just went home, installed it, kept CD key, and are trying to pull a fast one them. When people came in regarding games, I'd tell them to MAKE SURE their PC can run it, and if they don't think so, don't buy it. Single player games shouldn't even have CD keys, it's almost pointless (unless allowing download able extra content).

What does this tell you? CD KEYS don't work and are totally stupid, it's just copy protection that fails (Notice how they were against other forms of copy protection because they don't work?).

That's a bit much. EVERYONE knows that the gameplay shown in a trailer is at MAX graphics, they're doing nothing wrong. Minimum requirements = Low, Recommended = Med-Max.
...
Then you have 55 year old mothers coming in buying Crysis for their 11 year old son and expect to play it on their $800 Compaq they just purchased. Yes, I wish stores would have a return policy when RETARDATION applies to the situation, but unfortunately there isn't.

That's not retardation it's ignorance, and the reason why they are ignorant is because they are lied to. PC makers lie to customers claiming that their cheap computers can run games and do everything at super cheap prices. Game publishers lie to customers with "minimum requirements" which firstly refer to being able to install and load up a level (even if it takes a day).

To someone who isn't technologically literate all the text on the back of a box under the requirements is just nonsense. I think it is a perfectly acceptable demand to make that the requirements section on a box should be A) Clearer and B) Reflect the way the game is advertised (/supposed to be played).

A better system would be to have LOW settings MEDIUM settings and HIGH settings and have the minimum requirements listed under those (All of them) and be based on an acceptable frame rate. Along with some sort of grading system agreed between publishers and PC makers (like say "2002 Grade 1" or "2005 Grade 5" or whatever).

In reality all these "rights" (demands PC gamers/users should be making) all come back to a few core issues. Piracy and the fact PCs are so varied in terms of hardware. At the minute the entire PC/Games industry is failing on nearly all accounts, which is why all the development is starting to switch to consoles (inferior in every way bar piracy and hardware variety).

The things you're defending are things that are holding the PC as a legit gaming platform back.

We're constantly told that the games industry is now bigger than the film industry and yet apparently the games industry can't afford to sell games for £10. Compared to the film industry which has cinema tickets varying from £5-£8 and DVDs being £10 or more if it's a special pack (£15-£20) and basically no copy protection.

Or how about the music industry? they have far bigger piracy problems than the games industry does and yet they can still afford to have relatively cheap CDs.

completely ignored by gillz, what a surprise =)

Well, that turned out far longer than what I was originally going to say...

jameriojameriojamerioJAMERIO

:D

I was only going to say about one thing at first, but then I thought I'd just get it all out rather than keep coming back to add more points :(

It's not like it's much longer than some of mine here. so I feel your pain.




jamerio ;)

I always used to write long posts anyway, probably the same length as Jamerio too but he got all the stick anyway :D (Probably because he writes a lot of garbage)

Do you still work in retail?

If so do you tell customers that want Spore to not fucking buy it?

Cause apperently you may only install it three times before you need to reformat pay more money and beg:

http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2008/09/spore-hit-by-drm-protest/

Oh and the customers don't seem too happy about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Spore-Pc/dp/B000FKBCX4/...amp;sr=1-1

I don't work in retail anymore, but if I did, I'd tell them that you can only install it 3 times.

It's no different when I'd sell laptops for students and Microsoft Office. Office can only be installed 3 times, so we ALWAYS tell them. If we can prevent future conflict, we do. what we need to.

students in Canada have to buy office?

hahaha :D

Yes, and in the U.S.

Laptops usually have a 30 day trial version of Office, after that, you need to purchase it.

The only real way to get Office for free is if you take a computer/tech course in College, then you usually become part of the MSDN Academic Alliance - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-ca/academic/default.aspx

Both colleges I've attended are partnered with that, so I've gotten copies and keys for XP, Office, Vista, etc, all for free. A small benefit for going into a technology course in college.

that organisation works worldwide and it's what we have, except my uni has it for all students.

Oh nice! The colleges I've gone to only have it for tech courses.

That's awesome =)

This is retarded.

I like how in the first sentence they said in a roundabout way that this is a human rights issue...

No. It's not.

People feeding you too much is a human rights issue.



Yes, I thought the intro was a little "American businessman", too.
But hey your interpretation is exactly on the conservative side, either. cause he does narrow it down quite a lot in the first sentence...

god what an idiot!
That Brad Wardell might as well just go and diaf.

More a list of things gamers should demand.

this thread is missing a point




.

:/

Gillz unfortunately my uni doesn't have that program so I had to pirate office cause I wasn't about to spend 300-500 dollars on a software. At least not until I'm graduated........Maybe.

1. Buy demigod.
2. Read "Gamer's Bill of Rights"
3. ????
4. PROFIT!

for me it would be:

1. Buy demigod
2. Throw old PC against a wall for being slow
3. Buy new shit
4. ???
5. DEFICIT!

:(