Also because it has a terrible engine.

play cpm

Vo0 vs toxjq, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh.

I swear to god I'd pay $50+ for tickets to see a best of 5 CPM/Q4 between those two. I also really wished vo0 had picked up Q4 after it sped up. (like, comparable to CPM fast)

Well voo would win all the cpm and tox the q4 so no need for tourney i guess :/

seconded

thirded

hilarious

Basically: "I tried to play Q3 and I got totally owned in 1v1, so I call Q3 "amateur" while I say I more than probably will not attend ESWC (to avoid being beaten in public).

Thanks.

did you see tox own fojji *edit*(at quake 3)*edit* at quakecon? quake 4 is simply more skilled.

lol! It s like comparing rugby to american football... So keep your fanboyish opinions to yourself ! :P

lmao, yeah that Quakecon tournament was sure super serious. Get a clue.

oh boy, you did not just go there! *clicks fingers back and forth*

I doubt he got totally owned in q3 1v1 the last couple of month considering the game he played against fox at quakecon finals last year. On the other hand, imho, his opinions about quake3 (and quake4) are absolutely retarded.

lol, what a bs.

great tox, so the all aim game (q4) > q3. good job.

haha q3 is all aim :DDDDDDDDDDDDD he using drugs? dont smoke salvia 10 times in days please!

depends on the map
hub is almost
but maps like dm13 are almsot no aim at all

u r right, every fps game need aim, but he telling us, that in basketball legs are more important and in soccer - hands! :)

should have asked him about ut3 if its true that hes signed up for i33

he was on the player list when i looked

says the q3fanboy

Is that really Toxic? Wow, a lot has changed since his last interview. I thought I was reading iview with Fatal1ty. Not to take anything from Toxic, but he has really became a bit overconfident IMO.

Some of his answers really surprised me:

and there is a much higher limit at how good you can get in this game, when compared to the other Quake games.

lol#1

you have a lot more to learn in Quake 4 compared to the other quake games

lol#2

Quake3 even a lower skilled player could think it was fun to play because the game is so slow and you hear around the map and even if you are a lot better than your opponent you don't have the same advantage, because the game is too slow and you can't surprise in Quake 3, it's just about hitting all the rails and taking the armours

ye sure, and Q4 not? ;)

I cannot say that I'm looking forward to it, I don't like to play Quake3 1v1

Now, that's something new cause he liked playing it in 2005. Too lazy to learn "how to dominate" in "easy and slow" Q3? I mean, he said that Q4 is so much complex than other Quakes, so I think he should, with his huge experience in 1v1, have an easy way to be the best in Q3, isn't it?

Quake 3, which fits amateurs better

yes, because they actually can join servers without problems /sarcasm

he's just raged cause the only game he can play got pwned

I would like to see a mix between Quake 3 and Quake 4 in Quake Live.

meh to

o rly?

about time Anton shows him somethink on LAN so he gets off his high horse, been a while since I've read such arrogant and big-mouthed crap. christ.

the irony is that cooller, arguably the best q3 player ever has time and again shown us stuff that totally disproves what tox said here about q3. if it was all about hitting the rails and grabbing armors, cooller would have never been as dominant as he was and he was clearly the epitome of map control.

I'd like to see QuakeWorld 2.

how would that improve over the original?

Increase in popularity, professionally developed.. A Good(hopefully) mainstream first person shooter. It would be interesting.
Many a thing would be improved, How is hard to say.
One more computer game = more love = less trouble in the world.

'Increase in popularity'
Sure QuakeWorld isn't widely spread but it's popular for the regulars ;)

'professionally developed.' Are you saying the coders on ezQuake and the package maker empezar who makes nQuake aren't doing a good job?

'A Good(hopefully) mainstream first person shooter. It would be interesting.'

= qw already ? (although it's lost it's mainstream popularity, it was _the_ game everybody played for a long while)

'Many a thing would be improved, How is hard to say'
Yes, the gameplay is already perfect.

'One more computer game = more love = less trouble in the world.'
Sure more love =)

LOL

It just needs to be re-packaged, re-released and advertised. That is all.

only reason I can think of is to get the "Graphics > Gameplay" kids to try it. But I'm not sure if that is even desirable. :/

think of how much fun you could have shutting them out 143-0...in ffa

yes and think of the incredible amount of whine and ragequit.

Good times! :)

Big LOL

What??? Lower skill level in quake3? LOOOOL

IMO its exactly the opposite, he dominated quake4 because:
a) there were a lot less elite players active, and
b) cooller stopped caring

So STFU toxinator, you just were in the right place at the right time, of course youre also a very talented player, but everybody knows that perseverance is more important that talent, and that was what made you invincible, you just taked quake4 very seriously from day one and that gave you the edge. Otherwise please see Forrest Gump again.

woah chill dude :]
It's a personal Interview, not a collection of facts :D

so, typical vq3 fonboyism here.

Maybe it hurts, but those facts are objective and true. I enjoyed q4 a lot, raised local servers, played it a lot, watched big events videos/demos/gtv, even did a little research to help low bandwith players. Its a solid game now. No real q3 fanboy would said those thigs. The big *but* is just, please dont say its better than his big brother, the king (fanboyism intended). As a competitive platform, quake3 is miles ahead of quake4. And its not me, a totally unknown, that says it. Matt Dallon anyone? Hes no biased you know, he just need the best games. Now say that from someone who enjoyed the best years of his life with the game he obviously wants to evangelize.

ok, seems like you're not as fanboy as I thought. Good point.
But you're still wrong.

And yes, because I'm an asshole, and because I'm way to lazy ATM, I won't give any argumentation to justify myself.

Think again. Cu.

:-D

:D

go play your noob game@wsw

go play your 1337 game @ vq3.

Because it's 21337 it'll die pretty soon (or is it already ?).

Warsow is a noob game & free, so let's say it has more chance to attract newcomers ?

Anyway, I wasn't talking about Warsow, but VQ4/CQ3/CPM here, so...

:-D

how will vq3 die soon? it's actually getting re-incarnated in the form of Quake Live. it's gonna be free and it's gonna have the Quake and id name to go with it. i think that would probably attract more people than warsow.

i'm not comparing the gameplay with warsow at all... not going into what is a better game but IMHO Quake Live will have more potential to attract new players than warsow.

it's quite natural that people try to make others believe that the game you performed best in is the hardest one.

itt : a lot of raged q3 fanboys

funny all the ppl that dont respect his opinion, i'd like to see you play near his level.

He's never won a major Q3 tournament and calls it an amateur game. If it's so amateur, he' d have no trouble breaking top 3 consistently.

Face it, the guy was only good at Q4 because he was the only one trying.

Maybe thats because he hasn't ever played q3 1v1 seriously? He was pretty dominant in Q3 TDM, and has recently beaten one of the Q3 "top3" in fox at quakecon, so yeah I guess he sucks at Q3 and was just lucky ^o)

Fox is also not a major tournament winner.

Top 3?

LOL

ps. You can't dominate a team game, he also happened to have players like Gopher, Fox, Reptile, Tech, Panicore, etc. around to "help" him.

In fact ic weren't even dominant in TDM untill FOX joined.

there where const at top, with v, qpo, u etc. so u cant really diss ic tbh:)

I wasn't dissing them :S

But people always seem to go on about how TOXIC WAS IN IC IN TDM AND THEY/HE DOMINATED TDM as a reason for him being one of the best in VQ3.

We all know Toxic wasn't anything to write home about in VQ3 Duel (Whether or not he took it seriously is irrelevant) and TDM is a team game where ic didn't "dominate" at all untill Fox.

fox>tox@tdm simple.

Look at damage, k thx bye.

your joking, right? fox actually was better than toxic @ tdm...

No. No.

dumb pole

Yes, Yes

as far as TDM goes.

p1mps,

that is all.

VIKINGS!

Whatever happened to ic-whatyoudidthere?

i heard he drowned in a pool full of bad jokes.

He has now the opportunity to demonstrate he can make something at Q3 with ESWC. If he doesn't go is simply because he knows he will not get up there with the rest, trying to make like if he didn't cared about it.

seconded

Maybe thats because he hasn't ever played q3 1v1 seriously?

I think he played it seriously enough towards the end

nah dude toxic is a machine u know it
if he really comes to eswc q3 than i see some heads rollin
maybe not czm or collers but every other dude is getting badly raped
just watch how he plays vs FOX on dm6 without getiing fragegd just once :)

So what? He claims Q3 to be an amateur game and he can't beat amateurs?

You know, being extremely good at something doesnt turns all your opinions correct. Your logic is flawed.

Ofc, but his opinion is still correct here, even if it's caricatural. He isn't the only one who thinks that.

1 of 17 then

How many CSers think their game is the perfect e-sport game ever made ?

classic

"1 of 17" ?

Not, the cs comparision. Youre switching genres there, so you have no point.

Nop, you don't get my point :

"1 of 17 then"

So, he meant that there are like 262624662 more people who think that Q3 > Q4 than people who think that q4gameplay > q3gameplay.

So
-> "How many CSers think their game is the perfect e-sport game ever made ?"

ok you have officialy entered my blacklist, thought you were being rational, but obviously you just want to look like having the truth at any cost. good luck with that.

rofl

I don't care really xD

And I think you're not serious.

edit : Ok, so you were/are still serious. Man I'm afraid

-> " Age: 30"

When I said that I'm an asshole, I was obviously referring to you.

If you really want to defend your vq3, then ignoring guys like me is not the solution; otherwise it means that you don't really care about which mod/game is the best e-sport platform.

I second that.

Sure, but it makes it more correct than your's, mr. Gstruct0r

yeah q3 1v1 skill is so ueber high oO.
I remeber czm winning some big event after not even touching the game for 1-2 years

Yes, you believe top players saying "I didn't practice at all". I know from first hand some of those. They love playing, its just a stupid pose.

czm plays quite a lot the couple weeks before a major event, its just the months in between them he doesn't play at all

q4....





























aha

Guys, hes a PRO gamer, and Professional means he earns for living by doing that. So admitting that q4 is inferior to other quakes would be the same as saying there is no need for his job.

HELLO WAKE UP if he was as you said he would have say this for q3 because taht's the game to play since ESWC took it.

jeez...

and i plussed you by mistake omg...

But that would require a lot of training and he probably wouldn't even make it to the top ten, so he's better off winning some q4 tournaments instead.

Im absolutely sure he would do top ten with some quake3 deoxidation bootcamps. But he probably will take the VoO aproach and play safe, when seeing a major change in gameplay situation while being top#1, retiring from professional activity with a nice bank account and study and/or get a real job.

Im not saying its bad or good, just a decision. I just cant stop thinking how incredible the scene would be with the czm's and z4's and fat's and many other examples, and in the future, when growing older, how they will overcome the doubt about their true purpose, expressing art through playing games.

Its proved science that a person with regular $$$ and doing what he truly loves, is happier and lives longer, than a big $$$ who sold his soul.

Too bad most ppl don't get it...

"Its proved science that a person with regular $$$ and doing what he truly loves, is happier and lives longer, than a big $$$ who sold his soul."

That's my opinion :P

hehe, seems tox struck a nerve
:D

almost fell off my chair after reading blind q3 fanboys posts :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


gosh ure on a highway to become as idiots as cs-players. hahahahaha :D..... face it... youre pathetic.

Yes, but our game, after 9 years of existence, is becoming the FPS game at ESWC, and will continue being alive with QL, demonstrating its superiority.

Any reply is just failure, so im not caring.

youre the most pathetic q3fanboy ive ever seen.

and im not saying q3 is bad game, ure just too idiot to understand what you read.

that's what the cs guys say ;)

6% of +'s for such an overused and incorrect argument?

cs is another genre, the important part here is that quake3 was chosen over UT3, quake4 and warsow. Those are direct competitors, the rest is just plus whoring.

so cs is no fps anymore?

ofc it is, slow paced and team based, while quake is fast paced duel based.

Ok wait. Lemme get this straight. An actual fanboy (I like q3, just like q4 better), is trying to base a games worth by how popular it is?!?!?
bwahahahahaha

So then, COD4 must be the pinnacle of modern FPS gaming according to you then, huh?

q3 looks better. ownt.

eh. i didn't mean to reply to you.

Most CS players haven't really seen any other games. Q3 players did.

and that has something to do with......... ..... ..... ..... ..... ............... what ?

.................. q3 players arent blind , you do the math.

nah, i wanna see u do the math. and see how much wrong u can go.

He prolly won't go any more wrong than u did.

what a typical useless argument.

Just like yours ^^

no, mine wasnt.

oh yes it was! :D :D :D

oh no it isnt!!!!!!! £(^&$

OH YS IT IS!!!!!!

OH NO IT... oh... I see what we're doing now.

OH YES IT IS HAHAHAA LAST WORD BWUAHAHAH

xD


i love you <3

<3

cs players don't need to see other games because it's so perfect already. -_-

i agree :)

chill out ppl:)

its not like he said q3 sux. tbh if u love either q3 or q4, u cant honestly say one is ftw and the other one completely sux. i can i agree that u may prefer one above the other.

as i see it he only things there is more depth to q4, and more possibility to grow. u dont have to agree with him.
but i hardly think he thinks q3 is a noob game, so chill^^

Always thought he was too arrogant but hey it's cool, i aint going bald!

For me:

Q4>CPM>QW>VQ3>Q2

I totally understand what he's talking about. I've only been playing Quake 3 online for about a week, maybe 7 games or so, and I've only lost one duel yet.
I really want all you Q3 fanboys to come hop in a game of Q4 and really see what it's like right now, rather than just blindy saying it sucks because it gets you [+]'s on this site.
Please.

Sure, i think i have tried about 5 different occassions to 'hop into' a quake 4 server and guess what....you never get in.

There is always some missing fucking file. Everyone gives up trying to even get a game eventually, gameplay is non-existant when its none existant due to not being able to get on any servers.

I recently reinstalled q3 after years away from fps games playing warcraft and such and guess what...i donwload q3 and pointrelease, get cpm as thats whats used these days...and i started playing, no trouble getting on any servers.

you just need to work on being able to frag people now

The scary thing is that i always thought Q3 missed some file when i tried to install it after a break. I can only imagine what Q4 is like then. :D

Ok, so by the same principle, same amount of steps, you could download the Q4 point release patch, Q4max, and then just autodl your maps? 'Cause the autodl function in Q4 is far superior to that of Q3.

Q3 normal autodl. I did not go try to find an extra slow one, I clicked a server with very low ping, just did this today, first server I checked.
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8219/slowdlwg8.jpg

vs Q4 autodl.
again, first server I tried.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9614/fastdlga9.jpg

Well, I installed q4 with ease, dunno what are you talking about.

Anyone can jump into duels against noskill players and have a good streak. Beat someone with some skill and come back.

I'm talking about the average. If you hop in a random duel server in q4 you're more likely to get pummeled than hopping in a random duel server in q3.

I dunno about that, since i know you are NA i'd say there are quite a few more higher skilled duelers in q3 than q4, mostly because there are more q3 players, but you must have just coincidentally played quite a few newbs because ever since the announcement of qlive ive seen a lot of newer players...

That's because less people play Q4. The same thing happened in PK - that's one of the reasons it failed.

i see, youre trying to invert things, easy one. Read again, were just saying the putting q4 as a uber skilled game above q3 is absolutely retarded.

Why? It's more skilled. I don't see crouchliding, smaller hitboxes and portal/jumppad shooting in q3. Face it, q3 is slow and the hitboxes are huge. Comparing q3 to q4 is like comparing q2 to qw

Don't use crouchsliding or teleport spam as reasons for Q4 being "more skilled".

If you're going to say so at least stick Hitboxes/Weaker hitscan/Jumpad shooting/Better spawn system/15sec weapon spawn(at least it was the last time I played).

Those are nice additions, i really like crouchsliding, but far from life changing arguments when compared to all the bugs and shortcomings of the engine. For example the si_fps 60/75/90/100/120/wtf, dropped sounds and gtv need rocket science skills to set a prediction value so it doesnt play like jerky sh1t, etcetc. All those things just worked when q3 had the same lifetime (3 years) with its pointrelease and OSP 1.03a. To sum it up, no cool gameplay addition can overcome an inferior technologic platform.

"I've only been playing Quake 3 online for about a week, maybe 7 games or so, and I've only lost one duel yet."









HYAAHHAAHGHHAGHAHGAHAGHAHGAHGHAGHAHGAHGHAHGAHGAHGHAHGAHGHAHGAHGAHGHAHGAHGHAHGAHGAHGHAGHAHGHAHGAHGHAHGAHGHAHGAHHGHAHGAHGAH

not true.

my comment #44 did not get plussed!

well... you did warn them it was a test. So I guess they all pass?

he might be a pro gamer, but some of his answers are bs. i know he is just defending himself. it's just stupid to say q3 is for amateurs. ok, it's really hard to find a correct server for q4 but q3 isn't anything better for that.. "because the game is too slow and you can't surprise in Quake 3, it's just about hitting all the rails and taking the armours" so is q4.

lol

test

Q4 SUX!

/test

PS. If he thinks armor should be less important, how comes he doesn't play CPM? AFAIK CPMA's movement is superior to q4...

cos theres no $$$ in CPM, and when there was some mullah to be had, they weren't interested.

"If he thinks armor should be less important, how comes he doesn't play CPM?"

Huh? Have you actually... y'know, played CPM? Item control is more important than in VQ3, if you are going to attempt to argue otherwise you'll need to explain why VQ3ers coming to CPM just try to outaim you while the CPMer gathers more items.

hmm I can't speak for what they do in CPM (vq3 players) but my guess is they treat armour just as important as they do in VQ3 (unless they're shit VQ3 players) but totally ignore weapon control

since weapon control doesn't count too much in VQ3 (aside pro-q3dm6 and pro-q3tourney4).

The thing that's distinctive when a VQ3er plays CPM for the first few times is that they're either gathering or fighting, when they fight they stop and stand there like a pylon while the CPM player gathers while fighting. VQ3ers seem to get tunnel vision on outaiming you and winning a fight at this location right now and if you move away and do other stuff they get confused. :P

I'm the same I guess, although after watching toxter play it gave me a little faith since he seems to play a much slower and solid game, basic movement and no flair, which has been working well so far.

although it goes totally tits up and I fuck it up when I lose control then I'm pretty much screwed :(

ITEM control. Items are not (only) armor, and you wont win by just taking all the armor and hitting all the rails like he said :) I mean, doing it all in a combo (taking stuff while fighting) is the way pro gaming should go.

Hmm, no czm or z4 in Q4. That's fine, Q4 can keep the skill and Q3 will have all the fun. :)))

uhm, if Q4 requires more skill than Q3, why did av3k who beat toxic at Q4 get owned by noctis in Q3?

Because the Quake 3 gameplay has improved during the short-term success of Quake 4. Just compare a ZeRo4 game from 2000 and one from 2005 ..

and doesn't this negate his point even further?

so what? ever saw noctis playing q4? You cant compare smth like this

and you think i would have beaten a player like av3k in q3 back then ?=)

(and don't eve start with eswc07, i had the game installed for 2 days before the event ;)

just to make that clear.

No, I'm just saying that you cant compare a player's skill in 2 different games.

i didn't either. i'm just referring to what toxic said about top quake 3 players being average quake 4 players.

There were only 17 Quake 4 players, 16 and a half of whom were pros so Mr. Average was a pro in Q3 I guess.

Actually, this is not true! Every Quake 4 player has a professional background in Quake 3.

fox
tox
soc
stermy
cooller

just to name a few.

Speaking of av3k - ok, however, when he started with Quake 3, he was 13 years old and still dominated every online tournament he competed in back then.

really? o_O

here, have a plus and some attention to help you feel better!

DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG DaHanG

I won't bother discussing this Quake 3/4 stuff, since it will never end.

Once again though, I am so shocked to see him not give shoutouts to ANYONE.

It seems that in most of his interviews, he doesn't do shoutouts at all, or does them to very few. From the ones I've seen, he NEVER mentions sponsors.

You wonder why sponsors act the way they do, is because top players like him won't even thank them publicly for the financial support.

Kind of sad, I know that if I had any sponsor of any kind, I would thank them in every interview I had.

+1

The point behind sponsorship is that there is a trade-off and they get their brands mentioned...

He regularly praised Fatality for paying for his trips. No idea if he's still will them.

but yeah, his opinion isn't that ridiculous. The reason q4 was a failure wasn't because of the gameplay that it has now, but because it was atrocious when it first came out. I think when he refers to surprising he probably means croutchsliding, and that its less about railing because the hitboxes make hitscan harder in q4 than in q3.

I think he will do well at eswc

But when he was with SK, I cannot remember him ONCE thanking SK, or SK's sponsors.

lol @ the q3 fanboys going nuts when someone who knows what he's talking about speaks the truth about it :D

lmao@q4

haha so right.

Toxic may say some untrue things about q3, he's still more than right about the superiority of q4's gameplay compared to q3.

And the funny thing is that every players who played both game long enough say the same thing.

So yes, only the q3 fanboys who never got good at q4 cant say so.

And please dont old me the Cooller example: he was not as involved in q4 as he was in q3.

i think most q3 players who have returned from q4 liked the q4 gameplay, but the shit engine and maps destroyed it

as long as you have a decent to high end rig it runs smooth as silk (referencing the q4 engine). The netcode is a bigger factor in q4 than q3 due to q3's superior netcode (I'm looking at you CPMA), but on low, even pings, it's silky smooth in duel (90 fps default)

Still a shit engine in comparison

Not everyone can afford a high end system.

I see that as a rather large bonus in q3's corner.

and before you rage me, I didn't mind q4, but I preferred q3's style.

yap

Here we go with Socrates!

Sorry can't agree with you on this Tim :(

it's ok, i still love you :P

me too!

Have to say that I disagree with some of what he said (not the Q4>Q3 stuff, not bothered).

Games don't last long enough competitively for it to take a long time to become one of the top placings at tournaments...And by segregating a community by having an elite level that is near impossible to reach, it means that tournaments will play out the same every time, no new people can stand a chance and the player base will always remain small.

Also, in relation to the above, if people do want gaming to go mainstream and for people to have an interest, players need to be able to stand a chance against top players. Every other sport can have underdog stories or lower teams pushing elite teams close (and not always through talent, but heart and determination).

Games do need to be easy to play but difficult to master...That's how you get and develop a playerbase - look how well Trackmana: Nations did! Matchmaking is a necessity.

Finally, what QuakeCon are ye talking about...In 2007, Tox beat Fox 19 to -1 in Q3...

Every sports got some nearly unbeatable guys that will almost never be beaten during their whole career:

Boston during almost 15 years and Chicago during 10 years in NBA.
Pete Sampras at Tennis.
Tiger Woods at Golf.
Karl Lewis in Athletism.

And there is so much more in every sports :)

Pete Sampras was certainly not a player that didn't get beaten a lot.
In fact he was spanked all around the court in plenty of tournaments.
He lost seldom at the US Open and Wimbledon, outside those tournaments he was very beatable.

If you speak tennis, the unbeatable attribute would rather fit R. Federer, who played like 4 seasons in a row with like 4-8 losses per season, numbers Sampras wasn't even close to.

And yet there are new faces on the scene putting it to him and beating him! That's stuff that people like to see..

That game was a lot closer than the score indicates...its dm6 we are talking about here, once a pro takes full control on that map its damn near impossible to get it back

Oh I know the game was much closer (cracking stuff really)...I'm just confused because people are saying Fox pwned Tox - you can't do that when you lose no matter how well you play or how close it was. Just looking for clarification.

lol high level q4 players are low level cpm players. gtfo nig

lol :D

BREAKING NEWS esreality spammers not respecting other peoples opinions and caring too much about said other persons opinions shocker

seems like a cunt tbh.

one thing i'd like to add, with him saying q4 is more skilled, well just looked at who competed. That black kid did well, that fat goofy looking australian kid, um nameless(naymliss) I think and a bunch of other nobodies who never had a shot at q3 all did well in q4. Yeah buddy gj you conquered some real heros with that game being out for a year.

Not surprisingly to an American the top only consists of Americans and one Swede :P

I said others. As in euro others. i could spend all day naming names but what for? i think people got the point. Same noobs who never did shit in 1v1 duel, toxic was saying the level of play was so much higher in q4. But it was basically made up of all q3 1v1 rejects.

oh, please do. Make that list for Euros. I'm very curious who all those Q3 rejects were.

P.S.: Khorney's link might help you find them.

Not going to bother. You're obviously on another mission for yourself.

Idiot.

hahahaha,

So now I'm the idiot because your point was completely stupid and you can't argue it :P

P.s:

This is the 2. group stage of ESWC 2005.

Group 1
# Opponent Pld W D L GA Pts
1. Russia cooller 5 4 0 1 94 12
2. Sweden fox 5 4 0 1 88 12
3. Sweden toxic 5 4 0 1 45 12
4. France StGermain 5 2 0 3 -93 6
5. United States cl0ck 5 1 0 4 -82 3
6. Belarus Keep3r 5 0 0 5 -52 0
[See matches]Group 2
# Opponent Pld W D L GA Pts
1. United States czm 5 5 0 0 171 15
2. United States Socrates 5 4 0 1 59 12
3. China jibo 5 3 0 2 -22 9
4. United States chance 5 2 0 3 -27 6
5. Belarus Enemy 5 1 0 4 -72 3
6. Sweden fazz

So I gues the only non rejects were StGermain, Keep3r, czm and Enemy?

What are you talking about.

Show tournament top3 finishes and most of the noobs who did well in q4 , only did ok well in like 3 q3 tournaments... Most the noobs who had success in q4, didn't do anything in q3 tournaments.

And recent shit doesn't count because q4 is DEAD. So everyone is playing q3 again.

Cooller raped it up in q3 for years and years and did ok in q4. He was only one person.

Denial is a powerful thing.


So, tell me which great Q3 who were active in the years 2005 - 2007 did I miss that should have tried competing at Q4?
I mean you were the one saying only the rejects tried, so there must be lots of tops players besides the obvious czm.

Your mom.

what did you do that was so special stunt.us? And don't talk shit on people you prolly don't even know - thats not ballin.

Doesn't matter what I've done, it's what I've seen others do. I've seen noob 1v1 duelers make a splash in q4 duel after failing at q3 duel.

Q4 never had a large community, I agree with that. But, looking at some of the players that actually gave it a shot shows some pretty famous players I think, including these, in no particular order.

- Toxic (obviously)
- Fox
- Fooki
- Cooller
- Av3k
- Fatal1ty
- Purri
- Ztrider
- Socrates
- Stermy
- Cypher

Obviously there were more alot more players than these, but most of these played q3 did pretty good when q3 was still popular :)
If you check the Q4 part of the Redeye report from november 2006 I think you'll see that the players in q4 werent just a pile of thrash :), link below.
http://www.ggl.com/index.php?controller=News&...amp;page=2

point is "pretty good"

there is like two-3 people on that list that ever did anything substantial in quake 3 duel scene. Most of them are second rate duelers, that never amounted to anything. They shined in q4 cause they already had decent enough skills when the game came out.

edit: ah nevermind. You would probably argue Cooller never any tournament either.

Come on, surely you remember stunt.us beating noobs like cooler, toxic and fox in all the tournaments he won.

I guess you don't watch movies. Cause if you did, you would know that you don't have to make movies to know what is good and what is just noob.

“I don't think he's an a-, ... But if he's going to persist in making bad movies, he's going to have to grow accustomed to reading bad reviews.”

Yes the timeless argument. And it makes sense too.. unless the movies are The Godfather, Scarface and Goodfellas and the critic is Paris Hilton.

rofl...

lol yeah, the aussie who hasn't lived here in god's know how long.

please, him using the flag was hilarious more than anything else.

kudos to him, had he not of come down here and played a totally disinterested q4 duelling community he probably wouldn't have been at ESWC :P

supprised to read he thought q4 1v1 was better than q3. Wonder why...

I AGREE LISTEN QUAKE4 IS RLZ LG HUM BUG IS RLZ LISTEN ITS SUPERIOR WE LIKE BUGS AND WE LIKE LEGENDS LIKE Z4 CZM QLR(as in full potential) ETC OUT OF IT SO WE CAN LOOK SMART, YOURE ALL NOTHINKs IM RULEZ AND MY WORD SHOULDNT BE CONTRADICTED









Q4 fanboys G E T A C L U E, it was a shitty game from day one, lukin maps and q4max helped it to improve a lot for sure, but its just a polished turd. You like it? im fine with that, but dont say its superior to q3 in ANY aspect, its absolutely retarded. Q3 is without dude the #1 FAST PACED 1v1 GAME OF ALL TIME, more tourneys, more money, more people playing, more long term success, even today eight years ahead of the first tourneys a first tier esports organization like ESWC have it onboard. REALIZE IT THE DREAM IS OVER. Thanks

raged?

kinda, thanks for asking

NERRRD RAAAGE

OMG GEEK RAGE /run

ure funnay.

































NOT

Says Charles Chaplin? To say someone isnt funny you have to be, at least, a little funnier. On top of that, if you try to make your point while trying to be funny, stakes go higher. That said i have to agree you win this one, such a funny and original reply.

yapp.

Its not like he is saying quake3 is a game for amaturs, isnt he actually just saying that lesser skilled players have more of a kick out of playing q3 than q4.

In my opinion Quake3 always had the magic moments <3 I tried q4 a few times, but dindt really like the gameplay.
But I have still been watching all the gaming events eventhough I dindt play q4 myself.

Think he's also saying that lesser players can do well at Q3 because it's not as difficult...

Also ridiculous that he says that one mistake should cost you the game - don't have maps run for 10-15mins then, Instagib will do :)

for me the same with painkiller
why nobody likes painkiller?

in a nutshell: Q3 kinda sux

Q3 isn't inherently bad. it has stylish visuals and sounds that are put to good use by (you guessed it) promode.

i so hope Quake Live will support CPMA.

Straight movement is more appealing to most people, the reason cpm never got big probably.
I liked qw, but cpm was to wierd :/

erm

wut?

cpm didn't get big because their familiar attitude polarized them against casuals from the drop

if they called it challenge ninja mode or something less inherently arrogant it'd probably have been a lot more popular

typ tomte... =P

when i read some comments , it looks like toxic is a noob in q3 ^^

im not a q3fanboy, it's a good game (as all quake game ) , but i prefer q4 for movment and speed..

q4 movments are really complex..

In 1on1 , i prefer watch q4 or cpm or qw than q3.

/taunt fanboy

vq3 looks like lot of camp and cs style camp rail for me.

olol

has he ever played q3 ???

are u seriously asking that ?

i was beeing ironic ...

okay =D

lol he was playing q3 24-7 for many years
and didn't manage anything at 1vs1. Guess why?
Not for his weak aim for sure.

Which games did you play on the Nintendo?

I think I played ice climbers , super mario and streetfighter most of the time.

I imagine that is where the name of the legendary Quake TDM team IceClimbers came from?

Christ on a bike, nice investigative journalism.

If you are the best quake player of all time Tox come show us at eswc!

yeah i remember him saying i felt the ebst in q3 ond ggl it was

Although I do not agree that quake 4 is > quake 3 in skill or gameplay it is understandable for him to feel that way. After all, one can not deny that quake 4 was played in a more "professional" way. Massive amounts of sponsorships being thrown around and plenty of bootcamps where all the top players got tons of practice in became the norm.

This sort of intense practice didn't really begin until the pk world tour and quake 4 picked up where it left off. So the skill level of the top few players was indeed VERY high in quake4. Was it higher than quake 3? Not really but the level of professionalism was higher and the length of time it took for players to reach that skill level was shorter than it took us in quake 3 because nobody practices quake 3 in that manner.

For the most part, between cpm vq3 and vq4, one can not really say which one is more complex. They are all unique in their own way and to go around making claims like that is sort of ridiculous. It's sort of like saying hockey is more complex than football(soccer). They both have the same objective, but the scale of the playing field, ball(puck) size, and amount of players on the field are different.

I accidentally [+]'ed you xD

"For the most part, between cpm vq3 and vq4, one can not really say which one is more complex. They are all unique in their own way and to go around making claims like that is sort of ridiculous. It's sort of like saying hockey is more complex than football(soccer). They both have the same objective, but the scale of the playing field, ball(puck) size, and amount of players on the field are different."

Hockey > football,

but football is more popular because it's faster & easier to start playing/play in many way (except in endurance maybe) (& you just need a ball) (Counter-strike ?). But I personally prefer football. Because I've never played hockey, because there is no hockey at TV here in my country (at least compared to football; you have to pay to see hockey). Hmm, I'm like vq3's fanboys then.

Also, hockey isn't perfect, neither is football. For example in football some rules has changed since the very beginning. And sometimes to give more chance to the attackers.
Since vq3 is out, nothing has changed. Vq3 is like the sacred game. Even vq4 has changed, and the game was less based on the rail/shaft only style it was faster globally (crouch slide, more player accel etc, so, higher learning curve), as toxic said.

And then if vq3 was just a mod, and if the standard game @ ESWC/WCG/$$$$$/whateveryouwant had been QuakeWorld or CPM, no one from the community (and by community I mean the actual vq3 fanboys) would have ever tried vq3, because cpm is simply an improved vq3 with faster action; or a good mix between all the Quake games.

I play quake because it's fast, because it's nervous, because it's skilled. If I want something slower I go play CS (or CoD4, or ET). And the funniest thing is that most of the vq3's "jokes" concerns CSers.... Paradoxal.

So yes, cpm requires more skill than vq4. And vq4 requires more skill than vq3.

P.S: I apologize for my bad english :(. Hope you get my point though.

stfu pls.

i agree. FIFA has changed some rules but it has like zillions of years of existence more than vq3. More time, more probability for changes.

So, you mean that vq3 doesn't have to change yet, but perhaps in 20-30-50 years ?

The sooner the better.

incorrect

video games have always evolved much faster than sports.

You meant that vq3 doesn't need to change anything in its gameplay, even if it's obvious that it seriously needs some changes to look more "pro" ?

and hockey is just plain gay looking

o my god
yes and ´table tennis requires mores skill than chess cause its faster
and snooker requires more skill than bilalrd cause the balls are smaller

STOP that shit

to become the best it requires the same skill everywhere

"yes and ´table tennis requires mores skill than chess cause its faster
and snooker requires more skill than bilalrd cause the balls are smaller"

I didn't say that.

Also, table tennis is faster than chess but chess is way more complex. And that's 2 completly different things.

______


You can still compare vanilla Quake 3 with its promode modification aka CPM.
It's not only a question of speed, it's also a question of weapons balance.
And in a spectator point of view, it's more interesting to watch a match between 2 high skilled CPM players than 2 high skilled VQ3 players.
In VQ3, ~60% of the time, the players will play with the rail on a very defensive way, and ~30% of the time it will be LG battle, the rest is respawn kills. Then you just have to care about your positioning & time the armors. And yes, like in every game played at high lvl, it's not easy, but if you really care about e-Sport in the long term, I doubt that VQ3 is the best way to go.
For example in CPM, because of the weapon balance etc, it allows more variety, more styles of playing, and you REALLY need good movement (watched Vo0 playing ? cpm3a ?). I can still see players like Vo0 improving in 5-8 years, when in VQ3 the next step will be what ? 80% rail 50% shaft acc ?

Comparing CPM with VQ3 is like comparing VQ3 with CS.

Also, do you follow starcraft in korea ? The main reasons for which starcraft has so much success in the korean e-Sport are because it's a well balanced game with VERY fast-paced gameplay.

"yes and ´table tennis requires mores skill than chess cause its faster
and snooker requires more skill than bilalrd cause the balls are smaller"

I didn't say that.

Also, table tennis is faster than chess but chess is way more complex. And that's 2 completly different things.

______


You can still compare vanilla Quake 3 with its promode modification aka CPM.
It's not only a question of speed, it's also a question of weapons balance.
And in a spectator point of view, it's more interesting to watch a match between 2 high skilled CPM players than 2 high skilled VQ3 players.
In VQ3, ~60% of the time, the players will play with the rail on a very defensive way, and ~30% of the time it will be LG battle, the rest is respawn kills. Then you just have to care about your positioning & time the armors. And yes, like in every game played at high lvl, it's not easy, but if you really care about e-Sport in the long term, I doubt that VQ3 is the best way to go.
For example in CPM, because of the weapon balance etc, it allows more variety, more styles of playing, and you REALLY need good movement (watched Vo0 playing ? cpm3a ?). I can still see players like Vo0 improving in 5-8 years, when in VQ3 the next step will be what ? 80% rail 50% shaft acc ?

Comparing CPM with VQ3 is like comparing VQ3 with CS.

Also, do you follow starcraft in korea ? The main reasons for which starcraft has so much success in the korean e-Sport are because it's a very well balanced game (to not say perfectly balanced) with VERY fast-paced gameplay.

i dont think speed is a matter of quality
fast doenst mean better

then
the only thing i dont like on cpma is the instant swicth wepaon (and that u cant take all armors away)
maybe the movement is better but its totally shit if u cant avoid the enemys shot cause u dont even know which weopon he picks

i hope its understandable

bets would be maybe cmp movement but NO instant switch
with instant swicth so many skill is taken away when to pick the right weapon puhh. .)

It's sort of like saying hockey is more complex than football(soccer). They both have the same objective, but the scale of the playing field, ball(puck) size, and amount of players on the field are different.

Very well said.

Relax.That's just steroids talking:)

sounds like he is talking about TDM and not 1v1

not to say 1v1 had some flaws but lets face it, he had the most dominant aim out of the big players and could only excel on one map which happened to be one of the most flawed

what's his excuse for being utterly useless on ztn compared to other top players? sure had a lot of armour just to pick up and a lot of easy long distance rail shots!!1

I don't doubt he could easily rank up there among the best and perhaps have his reign in due time but apart from his aim he's too far behind when it comes to the cream of the crop for it to be any time soon.

He didnt start playing q3 1v1 until its very end of q3s lifetime. though. I think its sort of obvious that he didnt become the very best in q4 either until he improved his sense of tactics. And look at what happened after that :).
There is no doubt in my mind that if q3 became popular again, and if he actually put his mind to it that he could be at the very top there too.

i recall his first 1v1 games at qlan, not to say they were serious

q3s lifetime.

this is gonna be epic in some years again

Just FYI toxic wasn't useless on ZTN. He even beat cooller on that map in their first clash on it at qlan2 (he was beaten on it in a very close game the second time they met though).

tox beat cooller at eswc (in q3), cooller fox and tox tied 2-1 each in that group but fox and cooller moved on cause tox droped a map or something to some other guy.

Doesn't bite the hand that feeds him. Good pet tbh

Can't believe I read this far

lol

"My favourite is definitely Quake 4, because it's about making no mistakes, and there is a much higher limit at how good you can get in this game, when compared to the other Quake games."
everybody say the best game is the game they are better, other toxic's comments on this subject is just horseshit

wellll... words ?

Q3 is one of the less interesting and developped gameplay of DM games I played, and that's why it's the most succesfull imho. Q3 is just to DM games what CS 1.6 is for all FPS, including the community.

exactly.

it wouln't be so bad though, but the map pool is absolutely atrociuos (nodm9, pro-q3dm6, ztn).

I think he is suffering from some kind of closed box thinking when it comes to q3.... "because the game is too slow and you can't surprise in Quake 3, it's just about hitting all the rails and taking the armours"...he can not / does not want to think beyond hitting all rails but when it comes to quake 4 he can think out of the box..its sort of a mental jinx I think..if he applies his brains to q3, he can be as successful as he was in q4.

I believe the difference you are missing is that crouchsliding is silent, while in vq3 you can always here a fast moving oponent coming at you.

Yeah so you have to actually think about how/when you make an attack on the opponent more than in Q4 right? (It's not like you can hear the opponent everywhere on the map)

I think butcher is right, he's got a mental block when it comes to VQ3 duel. He goes on about how he is the best Q3 player because he was good at TDM "and duel" and yet all he achieved in duel was a hub3aeroq3/pro-q3dm6 win over cooller (aero was def winn vs qlr still and pdm6 can be won on spawns alone) and TDM is a team game. He's told himself that all you need to do is hit all the rails in VQ3 duel so much that it's become like believing in God to an evangelist, there's just no other way.

He's stuck in his ways when it comes to VQ3 and unable to see past it.

I honestly don't see how either takes more or less brains. If you use the element of surprise smarter than your opponent you have an advantage, if you use it dumber you have a disadvantage.


Really just wanted to point out to butcher that sound is a big difference between Q3 and Q4 in case he missed that.

in my experience quake 4 sounds were just fucked up sometimes you wont hear anything at all in real close range and sometimes sound of your own boots will make sound like 1000 horses hoofing together, that was one of the reasons I did not like quake4, I think these got fixed after 1.3 but I did not continue, but it will be a shame to say q3 doesnot have element of surprise, if it did not, all matches will be like player 1 takes control in first 2 mins, he runs the armors in cycle nothing surprising happens and player 1 wins (yeah dm6 sometimes goes this way but never ever for other maps). It is true that quake 4 was in a way faster than quake3 and so many new elements added inthe gameplay ofc it had more room to evolve(I mean thts why new elements are added after all) and toxic had amazing gameplay, but the way he dissed q3 seems like some kind of bigotry in his head.

Q3 = NOOB GAME
Q4 = LEET GAME

Q3 FANBOYs = PATHETIC
Q4 FANBOYs = REALLY GOOD GUYZ

BYE§

What amazes me is how after all of these years of Q1 vs QW vs Q2 vs Q3 vs cpm vs Q4 discussions, so many people still think it's a matter of fact and not just a matter of opinion and taste.

Btw Q2 obviously requires the most skill and strategy and anyone who thinks otherwise is a stupid talentless noob who is simply afraid to play Q2 because he knows he'll get owned.

[+]

true about q2! :)

a wise (old) man has spoken! =)

"if you look the wrong way once, it might cost you the game, and I like it when there is perfection to a game, if you make 1 bad call it should cost you the game."

You would LOVE Quakeworld.

I'm pretty sure he played it once or twice ;)

But somehow it makes me think of this quote:

"Show me something without rail"

after reading the interview i was so looking forward to reading the comments... and esr didnt disappoint me ;)

"What amazes me is how after all of these years of Q1 vs QW vs Q2 vs Q3 vs cpm vs Q4 discussions, so many people still think it's a matter of fact and not just a matter of opinion and taste."
just true

Good I-view. As someone who loves Q4, Tox and I are on the same page with quite a few things, such as how there's so much to learn in the game and the element of surprise (as well as fluidity) that crouchsliding offers. However, if the game were as balanced as 1.3 was, it would be a lot better than 1.4.2, which is a sloppy result of the whole "oh, let's see how much more we can tweak this already heavily tweaked game" mindset.

And, although I'm not dumb enough to think that it's completely true, I can relate to his views on VQ3 as it seems your average dueler will just +back-camp-rail over and over no matter how you play. The lack of complexity with VQ3 physics also leaves little to the imagination when it comes to strategy -- from what I've seen, strategy seems to essentially boil down to "control, read, frag, read, frag, control, etc.," which I'm not really into myself. I know that, in Q4, you have quite a bit to improvise with, and even if it doesn't work sometimes because of bad netcode/engine/etc., that offering alone adds more to the game..

I'm with some people who think he's gotten a bit over his head, but he's set some pretty impressive records playing very respectable opponents in the Q4 scene. If you're willing to compare apples to oranges, the highest tier of Q4 players easily matches the highest tier of Q3 players IMO, and he dominated those highest-tier players back when many of them really, really cared about doing as best as they could. He's got a lot to back up his claim on being "the best dueler ever."

So, all in all, he's a bit arrogant, but so are those who are commenting as if they're right and he's wrong. Nobody's necessarily right or wrong on said topics -- otherwise, opinions wouldn't be opinions.

(FYI, I win that contest. Yay.)

[+]

Play Q4 on Q3 maps and you'd see the same strategies working for newbs.

Think again.

Strange, still true.

Then again.

:-D

best quake4 player of all time = yes
best quake3 player of all time = nooo way!

best dueller at the moment = yes

in quake4

Ehhh... I dunno... I seem to be the only person remembering those online games, where toxic raped cooller like 27-2. Cooller would say, 'your lg is nothink on lan', but then toxic played cooller on lan and raped him 27-2.

This was all taking place in Q3.

HAHAHHAHAHAHHA

you really ARE the only one here at esreality that remembers those games. :D :D :D :D

(fwiw I remember them too.)

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1484271

?

I guess this is why he won QuadDamage tournament.

Against no top players?

coin flips? :p

read between the lines dumb fools. He has to promote his own success in order to continue being marketable etc. Similar to when Fatal1ty states constantly that he won 15 world championships or something. He deliberately considers any minor tournament win as a 'world championship' simply for public marketability. He is fully aware that they are not world championships.

Toxic probably doesn't truly mean his statements about Q3 as bluntly as he stated them, but it is the intelligent thing for him to do. To criticize his comments the way a lot of you Q3 fanboys have been just shows your lack of understanding for his situation.

See things for what are they if you have the intellect do to so. Sorry if he insulted your life, oops, Q3 I mean. he didn't really mean it.

How is he promoting his marketability when he doesn't promote his sponsors?

Exactly. Anyone who doesn't follow Quake would have a hard time figuring out that he's playing under the Fatal1ty brand.

A lot if not all of said titles were major tournaments on an international scale -- just not literally considered "world championships." I agree, though, that calling all of them world championships is an exaggeration for marketability.

But I think you're wrong on Tox just promoting the brand here. Not only would that have been really discreet if that was his intention, but he's always been this way whenever he's interviewed since ISC back in '06 -- he gives some straightforward answers while complimenting himself.

big fish in a tiny dried up puddle

Quakeplayers play quake, all quake games !

average iq of an esr user = 25 ?

stop being so generous x

I just watched some avek vs. tox demos on placebo and monsoon and its amazing how much faster Quake 4 is compared to Quake 3.

The crouch slide technique is almost like bunnyhopping in quakeworld. The action is much faster too. Spawn raping is also very effective which is good. I like spawn raping :D

Overall I had lots of fun watching these demos.

I criticised Quake 4 in the past but mainly becasue it was buggy and technically not as good as Quake 3. Fortunately things have changed with newest q4max and 1.4.2 pr.

They're not gonna believe you. It's truly the most blind fanboy rage you'll ever find, here at good ol' ESREALITY.COM.
:D

Nothing he has said has pointed out that Q4 > Q3. They're two different games and he's just saying it's better than it used to be.

Yeah I don't think Quake 4 is better than Quake 3. They are different games of course, it just seems that Quake 4 is faster due to crouch sliding and maps (especially Monsoon, Placebo and Phrantic) provide lots of fast action.

I still enjoy watching cooller, cypher and all the crazy Russians on ztn and dm6 :D

No it isnt. There are still some annoying technical difficulties not present in quake3 since osp1.03a days.

Of course there are still bugs. For example I get weird shotgun animations sometimes and I can't see health, armor and ammo when watching demos. And I'm sure theres heaps more.

But still Quake 4 gameplay is fast, it works and I like it :D

Thats fine, you enjoy so much the game that you accept dealing with regular bugs. q3 as any complex piece of software obiously that also have bugs, difference is how often they ruin my suspension of disbelief.

Its like linux, it rocks as a server/firewall, but for desktop im a xp guy. xp as a client just works, so does q3, and on the other side the linux server. Smart triple combo.

The typical q3 player ...

when he trys out QW,
gets raped by the regulars bad time like 30:-2.
Can't make any kills with his machine gun start weapon, because you need to have skill in qw and first get some good weapons ... and gets frustrated. Not able to make any use of the air control, asking himself what is this good for? Noone needs aircontrol ...
conclusion: shit game

trying out q2,
not able to hit anything with rail, because rail is more difficult.
Rockets are slower and need more prediction, doesn't hit anything either ... speedy movement only possible with trickjumps, trickjumps don't exist in q3 ... so why are trickjumps needed? too lazy to learn anything ...
conclusion: q2 = shitgame

trying out q4 ...
same as q3 but too fast, it's just too fast,
Can't perform as well as in q3,
so it has to be worse :-(
conclusio: YASG (yet another shit game)

trying out warsow ...
What is wandjump good for ... to lazy to learn anything ...
Q2 double jumping is not needed ...
no machine gun start weapon :-(
conclusion: YASG

Final Verdict:
Q3 is best game eva!!!

could write alot here but no
not like that q3 is just the best feeling thats it although i cant hit a shit there aswell

lol @ q2 being a shit game

bumping because interview is lol