'cheering for every spawnfrag fat makes, but when toxic takes total control you shut up? proper demonstration why a lot of this whole e-sports thing is a joke.'

Have you never watched a game of any other sport!? Theres always gonna be fans that are more biased towards one player.

Yes, except in other sports, you don't only play away games.

The crowd were annoying and ignorant, especially of skill shown by both players. If thats a trait of other sports then we don't need it in 'gaming'. We don't need legitimacy that badly.

Case in point, the fake faggot actor presenting the whole thing, this is present in many sports but, horribly, horribly annoying. The guy says nothing of consequence for 2 or 3 minutes then turns it over to the shoutcasters who actually explain/inform/start the fucking thing. Dramatization.

e.g. American Open in Tennis

Yea, but then u get finals at wimbledon later/earlier. Thats part of a tour with finals in several major tennis locations. There wasn't a WSVG Sweden finals.

Sorry but that doesn't make much sense.

Because there isn' a equal tennis tournament in every single country, so in the end there are players who only have away games no matter to which big tournament they go.

And if the minor tournaments count then sweden had it's share.

Thats true. A small minority of players in 1 particular sport always play games away from home, however depending on their opponent these are not always 'away' games with hostile crowds. A large majority of players in that sport do not only play away games. A large majority of players in all sports do not only play away games.

Apart from golf and tennis (which are both based around a tour rather than tournaments) sports players do not only play away games. I'm so glad we cleared that up.

So how exactly where the events that took place in sweden away games?

All games that didn't involve fatality also didn't have that type audience (at least from what I saw). So basically most games were not like that.

And then talk about playing Andre Agassi...



Or as another example the soccer world cup. Since it only takes place once every 4 years most players never play a world cup at home.

What the fuck are you talking about. More precisely, why are you talking at all?

There's a difference between 'away games' and not playing the world cup final in the back yard of the house you grew up in.

The games played in Sweden didnt have $20,000 and a rolex riding on them.

"All games not involving fatal1ty", well the final involved fatal1ty, so thats a really relevant point. Thanks for contributing. Please don't press the reply button. You've been irrelevant enough for one day.

Somebody wrote this sentence:

"Yes, except in other sports, you don't only play away games"


And it's simply wrong. But I guess everyone who doesn't agree with you is just irrelevant...

Or more likely logical thinking seems to be irrelevant to you.

I already said, 'yes in tennis some players only play away games'. I also already said 'in almost every sport players dont only play away games'. You have since then continued to reply saying the same thing repeatedly. Why?

I also wrote that as in every other sport also esports there usually are tournaments in every country, so most players do have some "home" games. Maybe you missed that one?

And you might not know it but soccer is a different sport than tennis....

Plus the world cup example works for almost every sport because usually there is only one world cup a year so it can only take place in 15 different countries during an average athletes career.
And do I really need to mention what "WSVG" stands for?


I did see that you acknowledged that your statement doesn't apply to tennis, but I still believe that it is simply incorrect as a whole.

many sports don't only have the world cup, they have local events, regional championships, national championships, in excess to the high profile stuff like a world cup or wimbledon.

and Quake 4 doesn't?
Especially considering we are talking about a swede here...

Yes there are indeed regional events. With $20,000 and a rolex at stake?

Ok cool, way2go us. Together we've been able to refine my original statement, sharpen it, turn it into a far more procision implement:

"Yes, but most sports (excluding tennis and golf which are based around a tour) don't play only away games for large finals. As was the case in WSVG, where the only real game of consequence was 'away' for Toxic, and 'home' for Fatal1ty."

That was totally worth the combined 14 minutes we both spent typing that shit out. Can we stop now?

You know noone really makes you reply to my posts or even start up esr for that matter.
And if I see something which I completely disagree with I will say so. Regardless of that fact that you might not like it or dislike spending the time.
However, since you still continue to ignore my example for "world cups" for almost every single sport, I think you are right with one thing. We should stop this discussion, cause there is not even a small chance it will ever be a good one let alone come to a conclusion.

The 'world cups' for every single sport don't exist. Tennis, Golf, American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Darts, Cricket (where the ashes is more important imo atleast to GB/Aus), Snooker, Pool, Table Tennis, Badminton, Squash, Gaming, Chess, Tiddly Winks, Rock-Paper-Sissors, Curling, Ice Hockey, Formula-1, Horse Racing, Show Jumping. Infact, i can only think of Football, Rugby and er... Cricket that do have world cups.

Besides this fact, a world cup isn't a fucking 'away' game. Unless you're playing the host (Fatal1ty wasn't hosting the WSVG) you have just as much chance of a friendly crowd as you do of a hostile one. This I requested that you make yourself aware of long ago, which is why I chose do disregard your wonderful 'world cups example'.

Noone makes me reply, noone makes me read anything, well done, you've established that i'm not being held captive and forced to read the replys to my post. The other option is that I do it because on most occasions I find it enjoyable and before i've finished reading theres no way to tell if the post is going to be completley irrelevant and annoying or not... well unless the title says 'Dird'.

Basketball, ice hockey and baseball have "world cups". Tennis has the davis cup which is similar. And don't most of these individual sports that you mentioned have world championships? In fact I'm pretty sure paper-rock-scissors has one.

Yep, except theres a vast difference between a championship played every year in the same/different places and a world cup.

Basketball and Baseball have world cups, on a purely technical level. Noone cares :D Similar but less so with Ice Hockey. I wonder if a player would rather win the Stanley Cup or the Ice Hockey world cup?

Well the most of the top guys still turn out for these world cups in baseball, ice hockey and basketball. But I do agree that most of the time players don't seem to care as much about that as winning the World series or Stanley cup or whatever since it won't give them as much glory and money.

Yep. The origin of this debate was whether or not sports players only play 'away' games (dont ask me why someone bothered discussing this). So aslong as there's something as or more important than this world cup, its not a case that they only play away games.

You might want to check that again cause there really are world cups for almost every sport. I participated in a Chinese Chess World Cup myself for example...

And it's exactly like the WSVG because believe it or not Fatal1ty is fom the town the games were held so it's just his home nation. And that is very similar to playing the team of the hosting country, or isn't it?


And later you speak about having the championship in the same place every year. Are you still speaking about the wsvg? Or did I miss something and they wre not just formed this year?

GG calling my comments irrelevant...

Wendel grew up in Kansas City, Mo.

See my reply to booger as to why the 'world cups' in 'most' of those sports i mentioned are irrelevant to the debate.

Holy flaming lesbian Jesus dude. You originally replied to my comment about 'sports players don't only play 'away' games'. Saying that it wasn't true, and in some specific places players do play games away from home which are in some cases 'away' games but not always. To which i agreed.
I have since then twice posted that what you're saying is true, yet mostly irrelevant, because 'most' sports players don't face the opposition Toxic did at the final of an international event. For the love of christ i don't even care anymore.

Yes becks. You are completely 100% correct, every single sports player gets boo'd for winning, every single sports player faces an 100% hostile crowd who not only disregard the skill of both players but actively attempt to disrupt the game of the player they dont care for. You are also right that as a budding young sport we should attempt to breed this behavior into our fans and as a direct result of this i propose we employ football hooligans to mass upon all future gaming events and trash them the fuck up.

Honestly I never ever saw that you said I was correct, except of cause the tennis part. But you did keep on arguing against me, so I figured you didn't really agree.
Maybe I just didn't interpret your replies correctly. If it was an oversight on my part I apologize.

Guess we are done here :)

God i hope so.

Hey wait, i found a way to make it simple for you.

Original guy said A, i replied with B, you suggested C. I agreed and suggested B+C, but you're still saying C over and over and over.

To me it always seemed like this:

ONe guy said A you replied with B and i suggested C.
Then you said B + part of C and added a new D. And I continued to reply because I think that only not only a part of C is crorect and that also D or a part of D is wrong.

Well anyway lets try and finish this with your next reply, since I guess we both know where we stand and that we actually agree on some parts :)

Ok.

This is exiting!

Oh no it wasn't.

even wen henman plays @ wimbledon the crowd still applaud a nice shot by an opponent

And the crowd are made to keep quiet when the players are actually in play...

ye but they dont have ear plugs/headphones to block out the sound

LOL?

You can't block out all sound with ear plugs/headphones you now. And besides trying to watch a game with Game Sounds, Commentators and then annoying fake excitement cheering like "WWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" after EVERY kill is fucking annoying and felt most importantly out-of-place.

There are videos of old CPL's etc out there were the crowd are actually into the game watching big screens and actually being "amazed" and gasping and cheering for frags/shots etc.

Wish we had taped heffaLAN finals :D

pl1 taking cpm24 to overtime by a long range shotgun shot in the ankle of koddy when the clock was literally 00:00 :D

Even the CS players gasped, and bud threw his arms up and jumped out of his chair and screamed OH EM GEE! I just screamed "VAFFAN!?"

Do you know what those ear/head phones they use in Korean events are? or how much they cost?

The players need stuff like that for sure.

'Yes, except in other sports, you don't only play away games.'

What the fuck? If the tourney was in sweden, tox would have had the biggest following. This shit happens in every sport. The most obvious being the losers that camp on 'henman hill' during wimbledon. Its natural for most people to be patriotic, and support someone from their own country. Not saying i agree with it, but stating that this is an example of why gaming is a joke, is completely retarded.

..but stating that this is an example of why gaming is a joke, is completely retarded.

why? i dont know if you can figure this out, but ill try:

gaming as a 'sport' requires a LOT of concentration. therefor, it is not comparable to say, soccer. it IS comparable to say, chess, or snooker. ever seen a noisy crowd in the last 2?

also, what i really ment by saying it is that this whole 'pro gaming thing' is nothing more than the same 12 faces and their fans/girlfriend you see in the ESR galleries. there's rarely a new face. and i blame the horrible american way of parasiting on this new phenomenon called 'pro gaming'. the immensely commercial attention it gets, the horribly exagerated 'interviews' and 'MTV specials' and the overall difference in price money (first place.. 5th place) just shows that this whole pro gaming concept is far from a respectable sport.

well dude, make ure mind up about what your complaining about. it seems from your journal that you are pissed that the crowd are cheering for just fat, but now you're pissed that they cheer at all? dun geddit

yes.

ok

did you even watch the game? those so called 'fans' were super annoying and pretty unfair towards toxic. in most sports sound and concentration isn't that crucial but in quake it absolutely is... so wtf are they screaming at the players? besides it's not natural to be patriotic where did you get that from.

would you rather have it like golf? gtfo

Yes

:)

no i'd rather have it much like chess/poker/snooker/etc. and you can fuck off all you want

clapping on a 3x airrocket <3
or a big "wow" :-D

yea but i didn't mean that :) the cheering/screaming of the fatality fans was so annoying and had nothing at all to do with what happened ingame.

it's all another variable

whos ur money on for the uk championship?

And you would be?

Hell, I know that like Cooller, Fatal1ty ENJOY the attention and the applause and cheering. Toxic even poked fun at the audience for being TOO quiet.

And honestly, you cannot take WSVG's audience as an example of every e-sports event. This was a studio audience of a token number of people, like 40 max. At ESWC you have the whole crowd, EVERYONE is there. This was just to look good for the cameras.

And no fucking shit people are going to cheer for Fat? He's American AND he's the underdog. It's only natural.

bring back [-]

well you don't need it coz it seems pop drops as soon as some1 feels like it...

or remove the entire [+] concept

it is not as if im even a bit interested in what you think about my opinion anyway, so save yourself the trouble

Cry me a river

ill fuck you up mate

Please don't :(

I haven't heard the players complain about the audience shouting... Why's that? Maybe they think it's fun that people are so into the game that they shout, scream and gasps? I remember when I played on stage in the Bf2 finals at a big norwegian lan (TG06) with atleast 100 people shouting, sponsors throwing prizes etc, some guys that didn't play said they felt sorry for us playing because of all the noise, but we all actually all really enjoyed it. Ofcourse you can get a little disturbed by all the noise, but it's just so much fun hearing how much people care about your game.

I agree with the filming though.

They weren't actually into the game or anything though. It was cringe worthy orchastrated cheering where they just went "yeaaaaaah/wooooooo" when Fatal1ty would get a kill, it was so horrible to hear this false excitment.

If you want to hear people into the game listen to the CS'ers.....

yeah, after writing this i saw the tox interview by lostcause and tox said he didnt bother that the crowd was so noisy.

but thats just tox. what if you have 2 players that really need silence to concentrate? i think a shoutcast is more than enough to get the ambience going. the 'WOOOH!' everytime someone outshafts the other are fun, but when someone gets spawnraped 3 times in a row and the crowd goes like 'YESSSsSS!' you know it's probably more towards winning for the money than winning because you respect the game/players. and its not more than obvious that that black glasses wearing looking like a rat motherfucker, fats 'manager', is in the crowd, along with some other rich people who never played a game in their lives.

Fatal1ty didn't mind neither, so it seems kinda strange that some people complain on behalf of the players when they both didn't mind. Those that actually find the noise disturbing should get better headphones or get used to it.

even if so, how are spectators not allowed to comment? i was just constantly annoyed by the stupid 'OOOOOOOOOOWS' and 'YEAAAAAHS'. last time i checked, gaming actually required some intelligence.

its a shame making journals doesnt

big middlefinger

tggggggggg

and that from someone who listens to the Game. please, die, you chav-wannabe geek fuck.

lolz i listen to 1 song where he featues (not even main singer) but w/e u say

main singer

please, go listen to techno or smth. you dont belong in hiphop

LOL

shut up black boy

Polish gipsies are infamous for being badass Gs. Watch out for them

running with a click of bears like GI JOE!

If you need the audience to be quiet to play well, then guess what fuckwit, you can't be a progamer. Seriously, look at the progamers that are the best - Vo0, Fatal1ty, toxic, czm, Cooller. You could have a fucking trainwreck happening behind their back and they would barely notice it.

That's what's needed to succeed, not some sort of artificial environment where no one's allowed to express their amazement. And yes, gaming requires some intelligence, but it's also an ACTION game. It's not comparable to chess or snooker in any way, where every move is a consequence of a careful strategy. Sometimes you just get a flickrocket hit midair and get followed up by an insane rail.

You'd have more success telling football fans to not cheer when someone scores...

also, a big middlefinger to the idiots who were filming the finals, if theres 30 seconds left on the clock and the game is getting really exciting, NO ONE wants to see the people in the audience or the fats/toxs face. we want to see what were watching for, the game itself.

werd

actually, that made my final.

when 2gd stood up and said what he said i got goosebumps, because i was really cheering for toxic.
'well uuh thats because youre swedish ollololol' <- might be, but i've been playing in the scene for a while and there has always been ice climbers in the top and that's why i really like him winning. also i'm a sucker for underdogs and this time everyone was cheering for fat so i guess toxic was -kinda- underdog here.. support-wise anyhow.

2gd shouted during map/game interval....

it was between maps afaik? toxic had his headphones off

Yes that is what I said "interval" = "break".

That was a big difference between 2GD's cheering and the stupid PMS/American cheering. One was some fake cheering which sounded horrible after every Fatal1ty frag and just made the whole thing look and feel cheaper than it already did (WTF config was CSTV using?) and the other was a well thought out comment about boosting Toxic's confidence/whatever at the break.

im not sure what you're saying here, i was saying that jay's comment was cool and the other nerds were.. nerds :D

I was agreeing about Jay due to when he said it, at the break of play and the others should shut the fuck up (Until the break of play) !

What did he say?

Something along the lines of:

"Toxic, everyone in the crowd wants Fatal1ty to win, but everyone on the internet wants you to win, just play your game"

Yes, the camera-action was sub-standard.

But IMO the cheering in the finals and cheering for frags in duels in general is perfectly fine, more than welcome. If this final had only game-sounds and the shoutcast, I'm willing to bet it would not have been as exciting to for spectators. It's the audience that brought us the in-your-face feeling, the pressure and tension.

maybe they should phonically isolate the players from the crowd.. like in WCG Finals

this should be a good compromise.. keep the crowd cheering for anybody, keep the players focused

Nah that kind of alienates the players from the crowd, also it looks nerdy. They should build a crowd stage up behind the back of the players that would be something :>

Only for the first or so rows to watch the players live then there would be big screens next to the players, with tuned down graphics for good visibility but besides all the eye candy you could get, maybe one camera on another screen to show the players actions simultaneously.

bullshit revisited.

bullshit.

don't like it..? :<

sorry m8 :(

who won cs?
i never saw

dunno

turned out to be

alternate aTTaX

or smmt

beat 3D in the final

attax on overtime vs 3d

was a great final btw

ye :D

I feel like ranting, take it all with a pinch of salt.

Cheering at some frags is acceptable but celebrating standard frags during a twenty to zero rape is somewhat annoying and not nesscary, the most annoying though was the seneless appluading of your standard zoom rail, it really wasn't nesscary. It wasn't general enjoyment either, nothing more than over the top blatant bias from the same select people.

There is cheering in sports such as snooker, darts and tennis and yes you do hear the crowds getting a little rallied on, when competitors are edging on doing something impressive and of course when they execute something above standard but you don't hear such applauds for every single action, it's off putting and extremely annoying. Just because it doesn't have an effect on the one player (I find it evident that fatality loves it and winz likely did during ESWC) doesn't mean that others find it off putting.

As for the presentation it was total cheese, honestly is it so hard to get someone who is used to talking to a camera and knows something about gaming so he can actually inform the casual viewers and not ask stupid questions? A blatant example would be Wheat, he might not be a professional presenter but he can talk to a camera better than most and actually knows what's what. The camera man was not to blame, doesn't he just film then someone else (don't know the techinal term) select what we see? Well whoever that was, is a moron. As someone said, out of 17 minuets 5 were pointless player expressions and crowd shots. The crowd shots we need very little of (if at all), expressions are ok but keep them to a minmum and make them picture in picture, at least I learnt that fatality likely had a calorie intake of 2000 biting that bottom lip.

It's not easy running an event and you can't please everyone and get everything right but for the amount of years 'e-sports' have been around it hasn't evolved very much. Money isn't evolution, I think most people would be far happier with smaller events that are far better run and presented. You know there's a problem when players and spectators are whining about the same things for years and they're still pretty much the same.

also, did anyone else find it funny how someone who doesn't cast (hello Jay) was far better during his time casting compared to the rest of what TsN did? He kept up with the game, talked about what we couldn't see (it's annoying being told someone is low on ammo, hello we can see) and of course got into the game mechanics, albeit basic but much more entertaining and fitting.

I wish Joe would go over to ItG I really do =] No hard feelings to the others, but you're all pretty much duff when it comes to Q4.

Jay was the best commentator I've listened to to be honest, wheat is close but just doesn't quite have the same level of depth and knowledge of the highest level dueling that Jay did. Wheat + Jay = Best.

Which game/s did he cast? I missed it :(

cooller vs Fatal1ty - Phrantic and Placebo Effect

oh, that one. I couldn't stand waiting anymore...

It was the best match in the tournament due to Jay's casting. cooller's Phrantic game was just sublime, he messed up on Monsoon and Fatal1ty kind of rail raped him on Placebo Effect.

That was the one match-up I wanted to see, fat vs cooller, more than any of the other games.

Monsoon was good cooller had it won but kept rushing Fatal1ty when he didn't need to and began to give away frags and in the end lost. Phrantic was just a " ¦] " game for cooller. Placebo Effect was boring when Fatal1ty got hold of the railgun, he just kept his distance and hit those zoom-pixel rails we all love about Q4!.

Deffo try to get the VOD's of that one (And the Stermy game if you missed it)

Apologies for randomly selecting you to ask but do you know if the VOD's are up yet anywhere? I know people have been talking about VOD's and I really tried to keep track myself but when news items are getting 2.000+ comments I lose :(

They will (at some point) be up on www.tsncentral.com

Ah perfect, I'll just keep an eye out there then. Thanks

some of the q4 vods are up.

wow, you read my mind 8(

Acutally I remember Jay casting some games back in the pre ITG TSN days for Eurocup :P So he's not a total noob :)

In comparison to the regular and experienced TsN guys, he certainly is although far better. It seems he has charisma as well, he could communicate stay on topic and talk about what's at hand, join iTG please Jay!

In comparison to the regular and experienced TsN guys, he certainly is although far better. It seems he has charisma as well, he could communicate stay on topic and talk about what's at hand, join iTG please Jay!

The Producer I guess?

Smaller more professional events run with the players at the forefront of every decision first and the rest after is the way to go for now then gradually scale it up in size as you can without having to compromise.

Players need space, quiet, comfortable chairs/table, good pc's/monitors etc.

All the events I see pictures/streams of seem to use random chairs from hotels/cheap ones, have loud sponsor booths right next to the players and they often look quiet cramped together.

You forgot about the 2+ hour delay for the cooller v fat match.

word

Word man! Fucking word!

dez deserves a plus no matter how homo he is. I'll give ya one

<3333333333