concur

2nd'ed

agree, Bush's attitude on this issue has been a disgrace, hope Obama makes a lot of changes to usa's foreign policy with regards to Isreal

Fucking Religion

My home town team (Kettering Town FC) have been supporting the Aid Palestine charity for years and display their logo on their shirts (the only football club in the world to do so). First football shirt I ever bought.

Obama is just as stubborn towards Israel as Bush and the rest of american politicans are. Even more so considering he has Rahm Israel Emanuel as chief of staff.

Obama will be very similar to Bush on this. This is an american policy not affected by who is in office. Israel is here to stay. The palestinians never understood this and keep attacking Israel. Well surprise, Israel attacks back and since all the militants live in heavily populated civilian centers, innocents die. But its palestinian freedom fighter groups or terrorists or whatever's fault because they continue to provoke Israel.

You all seem to expect that a highly developed and militarized country wont defend itself which is just retarded

first 2 sentences correct. rest=no.

correct me then

The palestinians never understood this and keep attacking Israel.

defending themselves from*

Well surprise, Israel attacks back and since all the militants live in heavily populated civilian centers, innocents die.

makes me wonder how israeli attacks can be considered justified at all. why do a bunch of civilians need to be punished for the actions of a few?

But its palestinian freedom fighter groups or terrorists or whatever's fault because they continue to provoke Israel.

other way around.

You all seem to expect that a highly developed and militarized country wont defend itself which is just retarded

these are not actions of defense. israel is the occupier.

Spot on you are, as usual in these matters.

<3

tbh in that conflict everyone who has any power sucks.

firing rockets at Isreali towns trying to bring them to attack your own citizens is just as bad as indiscriminately bombarding the shit out of those citizens.

Not only the people in power suck, the citizens themselves are fucking fanatical retards in both sides.

On one hand, Hamas was elected with 65% of the votes (and surely lots of the Fatah voters support the terrorists too), on the other hand the Gaza invasion and genocide is supported by more than 80% of the Israelis.

It's hard to try to fix things when both populations are religious nuts who want to see the other faction wiped from the face of the earth.

Even though Israel shouldn't exist as a state, if it wasn't for religion I'm sure they could have reached peace long time ago, but since ones are idiot Jews and the other stupid Muslims, they are doomed forever (at least until they start nuking each other).

You clearly have no clue. fanatics? who are the ones that sending their suns with explosives belts to suicide among civilians? who are the ones that refuses to accept the other side as a country and wont be satisfied untill they gain control over the whole region? last time i checked it wasn't israel but the Hamas which is the only reason that the Palestinians dosen't have country yet.

Israel were always the initiators in every peace agreement with the muslim country's whether it's Jordan or Egypt or right now with Syria or the palestinians, the only problem israel has is with kind of people that want to wipe us out of the map, Hamas for example.

Genocide? you are very impudant and ignorant to use this word regarding the conflict. 630 deaths which 80% of them are terrorists, indeed, the palestinian holocaust. how many innocent people have died to israel when fighting terrorists organizations in the last 10 years? i promise you that much more then the innocent palestinians that have been killed so far.

And no we are not religious, i'd say 70% of the israelies are profanes when 25% are keeping just part of the religion, which in no way encourages violence.

Religion is the main reason for wars all over the world and has been so for the last 2000 years. everything that seperates humanbeings from another humanbeings can cause wars, if it wasn't religion it would be something else.

how many innocent people have died to israel when fighting terrorists organizations in the last 10 years? i promise you that much more then the innocent palestinians that have been killed so far.

this is a ridiculous statement

No, its not. One Israeli life is more important than any number of Palestenians lives for Irealis and vice versa. Poeple, stop taking a god damn higher moral ground. Politics do not have much to do with morals.

Politics do not have much to do with morals.

so this is how you justify your authoritarianism?

Why does it need to be justified?
I am "authoritarian" as far as thinking that it makes sense to give authority to those who know better. Simple rules of logic have little to do with "justice" or "morals".

claims of authority are illegitimate until proven otherwise.

If someone gives authority away, then that's a pretty legit claim.

let me give you an example. ok so a group of men got together and created the constitution of usa, over 200 years ago. basically, these men are making a document that "gives" authority to a group of representatives. with this "authority", these guys can write laws that greatly effect my life. now this isn't legitimate, in any way. i never gave these guys permission to run my life.

say there's only 3 people left on earth. you, yeltsin and alchemist. now say yeltsin and alchemist decide democratically that you should be the slave. you should be able to see what's fucked up with this. if not, then you're just as lost as yeltsin is, when it comes to ethics.

"you should be able to see what's fucked up with this."

Yeah, what's fucked up with this is that you believe that that's not what gonna happen once momy and daddy and police officer are out of the picture. Whats fucked up is you thinking that mommy and daddy and police officer are there to enforce the rules because they're nice people. No, the officer is there because those who are in power enforce their power and order onto everyone else for the benefit of the whole system which is parly their own.
You're the lost one if you think ethics is some sort of physical property of the universe.

you don't know what i think and you don't really know wtf you're talking about.

"you don't know what i think"

No shit, that's why i said *if*. Uh, do enlighten on what you do think then.

"and you don't really know wtf you're talking about."

Woah okey maan. Coming from someone who thinks a piece of fucking papers gives anyone anything. Yeaaah.

if you actually read my post, then this wouldn't be so hard for you.

if you actually read my post, then this wouldn't be so hard for you.

"the officer is there because those who are in power enforce their power and order onto everyone else for the benefit of the whole system which is parly their own"

Replace "order" with "constitution". Get it?

Yeah, but I wouldn't give them the authority to make that decision.

There is no such thing as legitimate or illegitimate authority.

sure there is. it's not that difficult of a concept to understand. btw, you can't really "give" someone authority.

Of course you can give somebody authority.

no. people can only believe they were "given" authority.

Of course authority can be given, go look up the word in the dictionary.

You may not have given the USA authority over your life but it doesn't matter because they don't require it since they have the power to exert authority over you regardless of your opinion on the matter.

it's not legitimate(justified), though. we're going in circles, here.

Justified is not the same as legitimate.

If someone can't look after themselves or even ask for help, taking authority of looking after them is justified but from what you've been saying would be illegitimate.

The only reason your arguments of authority go in circles is because you simply proclaim all authority of illegitimate park the bus.

If someone can't look after themselves or even ask for help, taking authority of looking after them is justified but from what you've been saying would be illegitimate.

no, that's not what i've been saying.

The only reason your arguments of authority go in circles is because you simply proclaim all authority of illegitimate park the bus.

rofl. where did i say all authority is illegitimate? i'm merely asserting that claims of authority should be required to meet a burden of proof, just like any other kind of claim.

And what would you accept as evidence?

common example:

say you walk out into the street, without looking both ways, and i see you're about to be hit by a car. i go and pull you back onto the sidewalk. i completely invaded your personal space, but i did it for your safety.

it's not that difficult to meet the burden of proof, if there is a genuine reason for a claim of authority to be made.

In that case, pretty much most authority is justified.

no.

LOL
What if I wanted to get hit? Then it wasn't justified? Or was it illegitimate?

suicide seems to be a gray area. it's the center of many ethical discussions, mainly due to it's ambiguity.

So, whether your action was first: legitimate; and second: justified, will depend on the outcome of the 'ethical discussion'? Who and what do you think will determine that outcome?

Who and what do you think will determine that outcome?

the definition of words.

fascinating

and who determines the definition of words?

the individual who coins a word decides its definition.

(Sorry to butt in between you two but) I don't think you realize that meanings are bound to change over time? It's the popular use that decides it. And as time passes new warped meanings become the official ones and are put into dictionaries (which majority of the people doesn't consult though).

He also didn't know what 'society' was. Haha.

oh really? like how you think the word anarchy is equatable with anarchism? oh and what about your understanding of the words owe and debt?

[20:51] <@nistley> a bunch of angry people coem to you
[20:51] <@nistley> and tell you you owe them
[20:51] <@nistley> and therefore you do

haha
No, I don't think they are equatable. It's like saying I think "cheese" and "cooking" are equatable. And about that quote. It has nothing to do with the meanings of the words and everything with their real life manifestation.

why do you say that i owe someone, then? why can't you just say they are going to steal from me?

Because it doesn't matter what you call it.

you mean it doesn't matter when you make mistakes?

Uh, matters to whom, what?
How hard is it to understand that it doesn't matter how YOU define anything if it doesn't have any consequence on the real world. It only matters how someone who has the power to enforce things defines anything.

yea i guess it doesn't matter that you can't call something like it is.

what??

you hold different standards to others than you do yourself.

you mean "for yourself"?
Regardless, I don't hold any standards. None. At all.

absolutely true. for example, many political terms have been twisted into the exact opposite meaning they once had, in the united states. i try to stay away from neologistic meanings.

LOL What? No one gets authority by *claiming* it??
Legitimacy? Whatever I say is legitimate is legitimate.
Seriously, do you like think there is a God who watches over humans are released his god stick to chosen reps? ...

LOL What? No one gets authority by *claiming* it??

no one really has any authority, over others. they just pretend that they do and most people just go along with it.(i'm talking about direct social situations, here. i'm not talking about how you have admin and could ban me if you want. that's different because i don't have a right to be here. i've only been given permission.)

Legitimacy? Whatever I say is legitimate is legitimate.

not really.

Seriously, do you like think there is a God who watches over humans are released his god stick to chosen reps? ...

no, i'm an atheist.

"no one really has any authority, over others. they just pretend that they do and most people just go along with it."

Thats the dumbest and most naive thing I've ever heard. One who can force someone to do something automatically has authority over them, regardless of the force they used. Those who figure out how to control and manipulate biggest masses of people and resources are the ones who have most authority. And no one just 'goes along with it'. This is as basic and natural as it gets.

"i don't have a right to be here. i've only been given permission"

same with any territory, object, world, anything.
you don't get anything automatically, you have someone give it to you or you take it. society is your 'admin' in the real world.

Thats the dumbest and most naive thing I've ever heard. One who can force someone to do something automatically has authority over them, regardless of the force they used.

that's what's known as illegitimate authority.

Those who figure out how to control and manipulate biggest masses of people and resources are the ones who have most authority.

^

And no one just 'goes along with it'.

you're doing it right now.

same with any territory, object, world, anything.

no, it's not the same. someone made this website and no one made the earth. no one owns the earth anymore than someone else.

society is your 'admin' in the real world.

only if i choose to let society own me.

"that's what's known as illegitimate authority."

Christ, illegitimate according to WHOM? There is NO legitimate or illegitimate authority out there. Whoever makes the law and CAN ENFORCE as a fact DEFINES THAT.
ITS A FUCKING FORCE OF NATURE

"no, it's not the same. someone made this website and no one made the earth. no one owns the earth anymore than someone else."

God, this has nothing to do with who made the earth. No one owns the earh than someone else? Are you fucking nuts? Do you think its like not divided among people who forced it from other people??

"only if i choose to let society own me."

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST I CANT BELIEVE THIS
You think you CHOOSE not to let society own you? You think you can EXIST outside of it? Where were you born? What are you eating? Where do you sleep, work, learned your language? Society OWNS you because you DO EVERYTHING according it ITS RULES.

Christ, illegitimate according to WHOM?
There is NO legitimate or illegitimate authority out there. Whoever makes the law and CAN ENFORCE as a fact DEFINES THAT.

/me thinks about all those crime syndicates in russia. /me lol@ the idea that they're authority is "legitimate" and "justified", simply because they have the ability to exert force upon people, according to yeltsin. /me doesn't think there's difference between governments and mafias.

ITS A FUCKING FORCE OF NATURE

not really.

Do you think its like not divided among people who forced it from other people??

sure it is, but they still don't have legitimate private ownership over any of it.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST I CANT BELIEVE THIS
You think you CHOOSE not to let society own you? You think you can EXIST outside of it? Where were you born? What are you eating? Where do you sleep, work, learned your language?

i wonder where u got all this bullshit from. i don't have to live by your rules or think they way you say i should and if you or anyone else doesn't seem to be ok with that, then you or they can go diaf.

"//me doesn't think there's difference between governments and mafias."

/me thinks you finally got it
/me lols, no, who am i kidding?

"not really."

Whats not really? You don't think natural selection is not real?

"sure it is, but they still don't have legitimate private ownership over any of it."

Really? Again, do they know about it? Do you think if you own any land in NA it's legitimate? Who and what decides that?

"i wonder where u got all this bullshit from."

Probably from looking out of the window, knowing whats going to happen if I decide to not pay my bills, stuff like that.

"i don't have to live by your rules or think they way you say i should and if you or anyone else doesn't seem to be ok with that, then you or they can go diaf."

I don't think the police will care what you think you don't have to do when they come and cart your ass off to jail when you decide not to live by this societies rules. I also don't think you could have decided not to be born, not to be taught English, etc. You exist because this society produced you, just like this physical universe produced the natural world. Either you exist according to the societies rules, enjoying the freedom that it allows you to have, based on your behavior, just like you exist within the laws of physics, or you don't exist at all.

You don't think natural selection is not real?

i don't think legislation has anything to do with nature.

Do you think if you own any land in NA it's legitimate?

no, i don't.

Who and what decides that?

no one, really. we just look at the definitions of the words, "justified" and "legitimate", and come to our conclusions.

Probably from looking out of the window, knowing whats going to happen if I decide to not pay my bills, stuff like that.

not paying bills doesn't really have much to do with what i'm saying.

I don't think the police will care what you think you don't have to do when they come and cart your ass off to jail when you decide not to live by this societies rules.

won't happen. just because i say i have a choice about how i want to live my life doesn't mean i'm going go break a bunch of laws and get myself locked up.

I also don't think you could have decided not to be born, not to be taught English, etc.

this doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. idk how you relate this shit to the discussion.

You exist because this society produced you,..

i exist because 2 humans fucked. society is not responsible for my existence.

Either you exist according to the societies rules, enjoying the freedom that it allows you to have, based on your behavior, just like you exist within the laws of physics, or you don't exist at all.

ridiculous false dichotomy. i'll live the way I WANT. i'll do whatever i can to keep these organized criminal cartels, also known as governments, from limiting my freedoms and telling me how to live and think.

your posts fails right at the start.

or how about i move into your backyard claiming that my ancestors shat in a corner there 2000 years ago and then demand that you finally accept reality and move the fuck out of your house.

Do you think anyone but ultra-right cares who lived where 2000 years ago?

well it is the reason for Israes existence, so i think it has some relevance in this discussion.

first, you just said it wasn't, second as a mere propaganda bullet point, it doesn't actually have any political relevance or bearing on the actions of the parties that are the main players in this conflict

you should consider the sentence I was actually referring too:

"who are the ones that refuses to accept the other side as a country"


clearer now?

I was asking you directly for a clarification. You can't "rebute" one propaganda bullet point with another one exactly as irrelevant.

well, not if you insist ignoring the implication.

my point was to show him how pointless his statement was through my statement.

But as said you insist on misunderstanding people and never consider what could have been meant by a statement but instead you just jump to a conclusion.

They all need a group hug and then sort it out on ZTNDM3

that'd take ages. dm17 insta ftw.

So what, are you trying to convince me that they are terrorists? I never said the contrary, I just said your country is just the same shit, only more powerful.

That statement about Israel being the initiator is laughable. Arafat was denied negotiations many times and it's hard to negotiate with the most pro-Israeli country in the world as a mediator. Also, when you have invaded and occupied the Palestinian territory all these years, it's hard to believe in Israel's good faith when you are still building settlements there.

630 deaths? LOL Those are only the deaths this week, you have been systematically killing Palestinians and that, like it or not, receives the name of genocide, as the term has been used in cases not even remotely as big as this one.

And please, don't make me start quoting Ben Gurion and the other assholes that started your country's bullshit.

Comparing the two evils is an absolutely ridiculious comparision.

On one hand we have Israel, a nation with one the most sophisticated and modernized armies in the world, not to mention the unconditional backing of a super power.

On the other side we have people who have nothing except maybe hatrid to drive them on. There's about 1,5 million Palestinians locked inside a square without electricity, water and whatever those racist bullying apartheid "LAND OF GOD" lunatics can think of depriving them of.

Not that I have much symptahy with Hamas and their terrorist acts. But given the past 60 years, it's easy to understand where they're coming from. Or at least why such organisation exists.

Freedom Fighters mate.

Freedom Fighters.

well yes, that is what i meant as well.

except i can also see where the isrealis of today are coming from when the are constantly attacked with rockets.

those firecrackers? +they get warnings like 2hrs in advance.

so you wouldn't mind if i shot a rocket at your home, when I call you first?

i see megaphone is hard at work. down with nazijews, plz die in a fire and gtfo middle east

yes, totally.

not really if I've been fucking you up the ass for the last 60 years, no.

what you fail to mention is how they did this to themselves from the very start. And this latest spark of violence was yet again, initiated by Palestinians.

If they want water, electricity, food, etc. then they should stop trying to destroy Israel. Simple enough as Israel has no vested interest in taking over Gaza, they already got most of the land assigned to Palestine after the Arab nations failed attempts to destroy Israel.

So ya there are 2 sides to this, and over the last few decades its been Palestinian groups that have instigated violence.

If Mexican guerrillas launched rockets into the United States on a regular basis we would probably invade Mexico. And this would be true for most countries with an army (European ones included).

So really i dont see whats wrong with Israel yet again trying to defend itself from a stubborn people who will never accept the fact that they dug their own hole so deep by not simply accepting the UN resolution (and having a lot more territory now) but instead, trying to wipe a now sovereign country off the map and failing time and time again. Israel has made it clear that the people in Gaza are in control of their future. They can keep trying to destroy Israel by intentionally attacking civilian populations or they can come to the negotiation table.

By the same logic you could say that Israel brought the violence up on themselves. By occupying Gaza for all this time whilst treating its occupants literally like prisoners. The racist apartheid mindset of the Israeli army and government towards Palestine citizens isn't secret anymore. It is brutal occupation at best. While Hamas is nothing but a terrorist group it's easy to understand why they exists. By the way, it was originally founded by doctors and teachers, building hospitals, schools and religious institutions. Israeli oppression brought them to hatred.

What are you talking about "defending themselves". They're not defending themselves from anything. Rockets to southern israel with 0% success rate? They're just killing civilians. Please answer #322 for me. Doesn't seem like Vici will.

I've been seeing that Mexican guerilla argument all over US(Israel) mainstream media in the last weeks. Sometimes it's Canada attacking US with rockets, sometimes it's California shooting missiles to Arizona. I don't get why americans need such jaded simplified LOL analogies like that to explain the middle east conflict to themselves.

Why should Palestine care about UN resolutions? All UN resolutions that have been proposed through the years in support of Palestine and not in Israel have always been VETO'ed by the USA. All except the latest one, where the security council strongly urged Israel to immediate ceasefire and stop to their inhuman war crimes . This time, with all other members voting positively, USA just sat by.

But does Israel honor the unanimous UN resolution? No. Which is ironic since IT WAS FOUNDED ON A UN RESOLUTION.

instead they bomb a U.N. building

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/15...index.html


What's next call moon a terrorist sympathizer? (I'm exxagerating o/c but still...)

UN buildings, UN schools, UN trucks, UN ambulance's...

please explain why you think israel would want to bomb un camps of any sort and that it wasnt just an accident. how do they benefit from this in any way at all?

good luck answering that one

Which excuse would you find for the fact they prevent humanitarian boat to go to Gaza in order to bring food and medical care ???

As if Israeli people had a heart..

who said "want"?


they did it, so obviously they are either retarded and/or did not take enough precautions to prevent it.
Good luck denying that one...

Israel has killed THOUSANDS and thousands of civilians in gaza. The number of israelis killed by rockets have yet to reach 30.

Saying that israel would somehow DEFEND themselves against some kind of onslaught is completely ridiculous

Becks you are wrong but atleast you got a clue unlike 90% of the righteous-pretending europeans hypocrites who have never been under the threat of intensive rocket attacks. which other country would tolerate rocket attacks on its city's for more then 1 day? the attacking country would immediately be wiped-out. Israel southren towns are suffering this for more then 8 years.

Too bad the world really loves to count the kills and compare between Israeli casualities to Palestinian, and ignores the fact that Hamas have been provoking and targeting CITIZENS-ONLY for the past 8 years. Now when israel finally reacts against the Hamas and there are some civilians casualties the world suddenly remembers to denounce and protest against Israel and not on the terrorist organization that brought this on itself and it's citizens by provoking israel for such a long time and streching israel lines to a tearing-point.

Stop being such a hypocrites please, this is the only thing we ask, try to put yourselves in our places. We have suffered enough from the Hamas, Israel is being as cautionous as it can be when attacking them. The world press has mysteriously forgot to mention that 80% of the deaths from palestinian side were Hamas operatives and only 20% innocent people which i mourn their losses but they brought it on themselves when choosing a terrorist organization as their leadership, kind of people that using their citizens as human shields when fighting against Israel, launching rockets and hiding weaponry in mosques, schools, hospitals and population crowds, because it's a really nice propaganda when israel strikes back and then they can show the world how evil we are for striking civilian buildings.

give me a break. its impossible to fight the hamas without hitting civilians, those guys are hiding amongst them, in civilians building, what do you excpect us to do? the only reason that israel ordered ground troops to enter Gazza is just to make a better diagnosis between the terrorist to the innocent civilians, we are risking our own soldiers just to make sure that least civilians would get harmed. no other army in the world would be more humanitarian then IDF regarding Gazza.

In my opinion the coverage in most parts of the world is simply a disgrace. yes, Israel explanation framework was never as good as the Hamas or the Hizbullah, but i would still except the world media to show a little more patient to Israel regarding Palestinian civilians casualties considering the fact that israel are currently the leading fighting force against terrorism, which all the european hypocrites are happily and easily denounce after each terror attack but meanwhile not taking any real actions against terrorism, just waiting for USA and Israel to do it, and if we are hitting civilians ( which is inevitable when fighting terrorists, especially in the most crowded place in the world ), they are being even less patient then towards the terror organizations.

No.

"Stop being such a hypocrites please, this is the only thing we ask, try to put yourselves in our places."

That's a good idea. Start doing that yourself.

Yeah i guess Palestinians should thank Israel because they have now :
-no water
-no electricity
-no medical care

Plus, they kept the blockade during the truce.
Don't you serioulsy think these people who are nearly dying from starvation and that desperate won't attack you if they can ?

Oh, i forgot too : they should thank you for stealing their land :D

The Hamas have been using the truce to smuggle weaponry into Gazza and after the truce has ended they could keep fire more missles and for farther range, the blockade was neccesary to prevent the Hamas from arming itself, and is not intended against the palestinian citizens.

about electricity, we have been supplying our enemies, the people who wants to destroy us, with electricity for long time enough for nothing in return, we have been supplying Hamas with money, while the only thing they have done with it is buying weapons to fight Israel. No other country would have done so much for people who refuse to recognize them and their right to live.

And it's nice to see that esr users can reply to the point. you are so biased against israel and brain washed by your media it's just pointless to discuss it with you.

it's very easy to talk, but as i said before, as far as i know none of you ever woke up in 6:00am to the sound of sirens while having 15 seconds to run into a safe area, i've been doing so for more then 3 years now since my city got into the range of the Hamas, 3 years when my country didn't do shit about it. and im just one from 900,000 people who have been exposed to this random attacks in the past few years.

No other country would have done so much for people who refuse to recognize them and their right to live.

So you have stolen their land some decades ago and you think they will let you have it ?

And it's nice to see that esr users can reply to the point. you are so biased against israel and brain washed by your media it's just pointless to discuss it with you.

Who is brainwashed ?
The guy who think everything his country is doing is right, or the guy who sees stupid errors on both sides (yeah hamas is also wrong with their stupid rockets) ?

Stop with israel propaganda plz...

Jewish people lived on the israeli land before the palestinian, after the holocaust everyone agreed that jewish people should have a country of their own and the chosen region was israel, there was no palestinian country back then on the land on israel and we didn't stole anything. the decision was to divide israel into 2 countries back then, palestinian and jewish, but the surrounding muslim countries didnt liked that decision and opened an attack over the 2 days old israeli country, and israel prevailed while also conquering the palestinian regions.

"Who is brainwashed ?
The guy who think everything his country is doing is right, or the guy who sees stupid errors on both sides (yeah hamas is also wrong with their stupid rockets) ?"

you have a mistake. i dont think everything my country is doing is right, but what you dont understand is how neccesary was this operation to retrieve security to the israeli southren towns which was assaulted with no clear reason by the Hamas for the last 8 years, and by doing so preventing their people to already have a country of their own. It's the Hamas that dosen't want to have any negotiations with israel and not the opposite.

I'd say you guys are clearly directing most of the fire over the wrong side, thats all. Israel deserves critisizm about some actions but when its so one sided biased hypocrite and just WRONG then it's damn annoying. I see people backing up a terror organization against a democratic country that is based on the principles of freedom and peace, this is just wrong.

Iv'e seen no ESR topics on the past 8 years when Hamas was shooting rockets, sending suicide bombers and targeting only israeli civilians, but when israel finally pays back and killing 630 people in a range of 1 week ( again, 80% hamas operatives ) the whole world suddenly wakes up, where have you been when israeli civilians were under attack?

If a majority of people don't agree with your country's policy, maybe you're just wrong ?

Your argument could be right in case the coverage would have been more objective around the world. but when looking at the world media coverage i really dont think you guys are seeing the whole picture.

People are talking shit all over the world about "genocide", about war crimes, about israeli violence etc, and ignoring the fact that Hamas only way was violence all over the years and that israel are those who were trying to initiate talks between the sides, while giving up for the Hamas after each aggressive it took against israeli civilians, ignoring the fact that israel WAS talking with the palestinian goverment about establishing a new independent palestinian country UNTIL the Hamas took it's place as the palestinian leadership and stopped all the talks with israel claiming it won't recognize the Israeli country.

becks -

"if you continue like that you will only teach them hatred, even more so if you bomb schools where they try to teach peace. you simply can not force people to be peaceful.
so if you keep going like this you will have to continue until you have killed every last Palestinian."

First about the school bombing - just to clear things up, the Hamas was launching rockets from that U.N school garden, thinking that Israel won't reply because its a "civilian structure" and related to the U.N. well, we did. I hate to see 30 innocent civilians dies as long as every other israeli citizen but again, it's just another example of how the Hamas makes use of their innocent citizens to make israel look bad. same goes for their university bombing, which had laboratories to create weapons. so much for the "try to teach in peace" thingy.

altough your main idea is correct, violence only brings more violence and israel tried to avoid this violence in gazza for the past 6 years ( Since "homat magen" operation, to stop hamas suicide bombers from entering to israel from gazza ), only taking small and limited actions against the Hamas, but as i said before, they were streching israel lines more and more and reached a tearing point, Hamas understand only violence.

Please, the coverage of the media is completely pro-Israeli everywhere, only.

And you know why people don't usually comment Hamas terrorists acts? Because everybody understands their acts are wrong, while your country's terrorist attacks have the support of many countries and media, something that gets on the nerves of normal people.

As I said before, like it or not, what Israel is doing in Palestina is a genocide, what you are doing there is not better than what happened in Sarajevo, for example.

And it all comes down to Israel being humble enough to understand they shouldn't even be there in that territory, retreating from the occupied land and giving serious steps towards peace, but we all know that won't happen.

Also that statement about Jews needing their own country is just bullshit. I don't blame the Jews, I blame the USA and Europe for basically exiling Jews far away, but the notion that a certain ethnic group needs their own country is just disgusting (not even close to the concept of the Sacred Land, but close).

You keep saying that the media is "pro-israelish" but all the facts shows extactly the opposite. the media is everything today, it shapes people's opinions about anything, if the media would have been pro-israelish first thing there weren't so many jew haters around the whole world, second you woulden't see so many protests around europe against Israel actions, and you probably woulden't see this thread as well, it's as simple as that.

Our country may hurt some innocent people but thats war, the Hamas brought it on themselves and their citizens. i remind you again that around 80% of the casualties in Gazza are Hamas operatives, you call this a genocide? check your dictionary. Israel had more innocent civilians deaths then the palestinian in the past 3 years, in the war against Hizbullah and now against Hamas, so that's must be a genocide too according to your glossary, isn't it?

Also that statement about Jews needing their own country is just bullshit. I don't blame the Jews, I blame the USA and Europe for basically exiling Jews far away, but the notion that a certain ethnic group needs their own country is just disgusting (not even close to the concept of the Sacred Land, but close).

So your conclusion is that Jews arent allowed to live at all. By one hand you realize that Jews coulden't stay in europe and USA but on the other hand you say they dont deserve a country of their own because of that. In order to preserve the remaining Jews after the holocaust the world had to give them a country, the alternative is just throwing them on some kind of isolated inoccupied island and forget about them.

if the media would have been pro-israelish first thing there weren't so many jew haters around the whole world

First of all: I don't know of any Jew haters and I have never met one. Second: even if there were lots of Jew haters, that would be irrelevant here since there are many more Muslim haters in the Western world. Third: hating Israel is not the same as hating on the Jews, don't start with that.

second you woulden't see so many protests around europe against Israel actions, and you probably woulden't see this thread as well, it's as simple as that.

The question is, why wouldn't people protest against Israel's actions? Also, it's easier to apply international pressure on a country than on a terrorist group that isn't going to care anyway (both the terrorist country and they terrorist group turned to be the same in this case).

If I protest against Israel (which I didn't, btw) it's because I want my country, the UE and the UN to threat Israel so they stop with their genocide. They are blocking the Palestinians, I want the UE to block the Israelis.

Our country may hurt some innocent people but thats war, the Hamas brought it on themselves and their citizens. i remind you again that around 80% of the casualties in Gazza are Hamas operatives, you call this a genocide? check your dictionary. Israel had more innocent civilians deaths then the palestinian in the past 3 years, in the war against Hizbullah and now against Hamas, so that's must be a genocide too according to your glossary, isn't it?

You keep saying that 80% of the casualties in Gazza are Hamas operatives, but that percentage is given by your government, so it has no validity at all.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776...Format=jpg

Even if we trusted Israel, 20% of the Palestinian casualties in this last five years is way more than the Israeli casualties according to the UN. Since they don't hold any kind of trials for the people killed and they can say everyone are terrorists, it's easy to make up the statistics when you trust the guys killing more people.

I didn't say Jews aren't allowed to live at all, nor did I say they couldn't live in Europe or the USA. Of course they could stay in Europe and the USA and that's where they should have stayed instead of lobbying for a territory in the Middle East for stupid religioous reasons.

Saying that because of the holocaust Jews needed a new country is just nonsense, they just needed some place to stay and both the USA and the European countries could have provided that without fucking up the Middle East.

You cant ignore that Israel and the Jews people are connected with each other in a bond. Hating Israel leads most of the time for having a bad opinion about Jews in general, it is connected. Jews are being hated today mainly because of Israel actions, you can see that in almost every protest against Israel, "death to jews" signs aren't very rare there.

People shoulden't protest against Israel because the actions that were taken were neccesary and legitimate, the execution of that operation could be a little more humanitarian and cautious regarding the palestinian civilians i agree, but that's about it. I dont think you see the whole picture of the conflict with the Hamas. You guys keep refering to history saying that we stole this land from palestinian but i'm only talking about what happens in the present and right now the Hamas are those who are preventing the peace and not Israel, the Hamas are those who bring those attacks on themselves when attacking Israel with rockets and suicide bombers, the Hamas refuses to face the fact that Israel is here to stay.

can you please stop using the genocide term? if that was israel intention they would wipe out every Palestinian and their remains as well a long long time ago. Agree with me that Israel got and always had enough Military force to do so. their casualties are higher then our's, correct, but it's not only who has more casualties but who are initiating the aggresiveness time after time. The Hamas are like those kids who are provoking bigger stronger kids untill the bigger kid can't stand it anymore and when they finally react the smaller kids get's hurt badly and go cry to everyone.

about the blockade, It's neccesary to prevent the Hamas from arming itself with more rockets and weaponry against the Israeli citizens. it's not intended against the Palestinian, which Israel has been supplying with fuel, gas, electricity and more for a long long time now, altough there are no longer part of Israel for the last decade.

I didn't say Jews aren't allowed to live at all, nor did I say they couldn't live in Europe or the USA. Of course they could stay in Europe and the USA and that's where they should have stayed instead of lobbying for a territory in the Middle East for stupid religioous reasons.

No, they coulden't. The whole world knew it back then, after 6,000,000 of them were murdered systematically over a 6 years period, the Jews claim for a country of their own was justified. The religion was maybe related to the region being chosen but wasn't the cause itself for having a independent country, the cause was much greater then religion.

Having your race killed does not entitle you to land.

I'm not saying Israel and the Jews do not have a bond, I'm saying you can't extrapolate being against Israel actions to make it look like it's an anti-Jew sentiment. And I haven't seen "death to the Jews" signs in any protest here, where the term "Jews" isn't even used when talking about Israel actions.

What you don't seem to see is that Israel occupying those territories is a thing of the present. The Palestinians living today are the same ones that had to be displaced because of Israel and this won't be a thing from the past until the grudges have nothing to be with that occupation. And I'm not saying that Israelis should just leave the place, I'm saying that the first thing Israel should do to show good faith is dismantling all the settlements and returning the occupied territories after the declaration of independence (at the very least, the partition plan is how everything should have stayed).

I honestly think it's Israel's goal to wipe the Palestinians from the holy land, as it has been the goal of the Zionism from the very beginning. Of course they won't admit that (well, some of the Prime Ministers did in the past), they'll just keep massacring them and calling it "legitimate defence" so they don't get shit from the international community or lose USA support, which right now is the only thing keeping Israel from joining the likes of Iran in terms of dangerous countries.

Someone has posted quotes from military generals from Israel and their tactics to provoke Palestinians, but even with that, there has been four? casualties this year because of Hamas rockets. If you think that justifies blocking 1,5 million people, invading them, treating them as prisoners and killing them without giving any explanations you are out of your mind.

The whole world knew nothing about the Jews needing their own state, they just knew they didn't want them in their countries. Now, why didn't they go to an unpopulated place instead of invading other people's land and claiming independence? Because they didn't need their own country, they just wanted to settle down in the land of a few fairy tales regardless of the people already living there.

There have been lots of ethnic cleansings in the past and people didn't thought that the solution was invading another territory far away and giving them a country there. Also it would be funny if all ethnic groups used your rationale and started claiming the territories where they used to be thousands of years ago, maybe basing it on books with no historic validity like the Bible.

"I'm not saying Israel and the Jews do not have a bond, I'm saying you can't extrapolate being against Israel actions to make it look like it's an anti-Jew sentiment."

Sentiment wise, yes. But any negative impact on Israel results in negative impact on it's citizens.

First, look at this thread headline. ;)

And I'm not saying that Israelis should just leave the place, I'm saying that the first thing Israel should do to show good faith is dismantling all the settlements and returning the occupied territories after the declaration of independence (at the very least, the partition plan is how everything should have stayed).

They didn't want a divided country back then and now after losing every war against Israel and draining all the violent possibilities they suddenly changed their minds? History shows the Muslims wont be satisfied untill the whole region is theirs. The last thing Israel should do is giving up all those occupied regions in an instant, counting on the furious and full of hatred palestinian people to stand up for their agreements. Israel should do things step by step, waiting for things to calm down in Gazza and slowly retrieving the palestinians their intended 1948 country. this will happen only by talks and negotiation, it cannot happen when one side leadership refuses to negotiate with the other.

by the way, the dismantling of settlements has already started in 2005, in a range of all the settlements which were close to Gazza and some settlements in the center of Israel.

I honestly think it's Israel's goal to wipe the Palestinians from the holy land, as it has been the goal of the Zionism from the very beginning. Of course they won't admit that (well, some of the Prime Ministers did in the past), they'll just keep massacring them and calling it "legitimate defence" so they don't get shit from the international community or lose USA support, which right now is the only thing keeping Israel from joining the likes of Iran in terms of dangerous countries.

There is a difference between the desirable and the available. I'm sure the Palestinians dosen't want any Jews in Palestine as well, and they would gladly wipe us out if they could, same goes the other way.

Bottom line both nations would have to face the fact that they are neighbours and can't do anything to change that excpect for completely wiping out the other nation which obviously can't and won't happen. Israel are not some kind of fanatical lunatics that pursuit unreachable goals, and as i said before if that was the goal of israel there were no more palestinians today and probably no Israel as well. Again you use terms like massacre in your post, again ignoring that all the actions being taken by Israel are a response to violent terror activities whether it's rocket attacks or suicide bombers being supplied and sent from Gazza.

The whole world knew nothing about the Jews needing their own state, they just knew they didn't want them in their countries. Now, why didn't they go to an unpopulated place instead of invading other people's land and claiming independence? Because they didn't need their own country, they just wanted to settle down in the land of a few fairy tales regardless of the people already living there.

And the difference is? the consequence is the same, if no one wants the jews in their countries then they should have a state of their own, the alternative is just not letting them live.

The whole world supported the jewish country initiative back then, why Palestine and not other region? because palestine wasn't a damn country, and because it suited perfectly for the Jews also considering religion. oh, and there were 500,000 Jews in Palestine even before the holocaust so it wasn't that much of an "invasion", just a real big immigration. Seems like you blame the jews for "invading" palestine, ignoring that the world supported it, ignoring that the jews themselves alone could do very little without the support of the Britsh who ruled the region, the americans, and rest of europe, so point your fire some place else then the Jews. soon you will start blaming the Jews for not being wiped out completely by Hitler then we woulden't cause all this mess in Gazza.

Also it would be funny if all ethnic groups used your rationale and started claiming the territories where they used to be thousands of years ago, maybe basing it on books with no historic validity like the Bible.

All ethnic groups lost 6 million people over an area as big as europe in a period of 5-6 years? the Jews lived peacefully in europe UNTIL the holocaust, not claiming independent country, they had no need for one untill Hitler took the rule over Germany and started to systematically killing them.

That thread title doesn't mean anything, it just fits the ESR style.

I didn't say Israel should instantly give all those regions, but those territories should certainly be on the table if they want a realistic negotiation. I don't expect Hamas to be happy with that, but in my opinion Israel has to show willingness before being trusted by the rest of the world with these self defence claims. Of course, that doesn't mean anything when official criticism against Israel is pretty weak and the USA blocks every UN resolution attempts condemn Israel.

The dismantling is ridiculous and only affects Gaza.

There is a difference between the desirable and the available. I'm sure the Palestinians dosen't want any Jews in Palestine as well, and they would gladly wipe us out if they could, same goes the other way.

So you are admitting that Israel would gladly wipe the Palestinians out, but you can't imagine these massacres being part of a plan to do that when they have proven pretty useful in conquering territory?

Please, those retaliation and defence claims are just absurd, this is not even "eye for an eye", it's just an unproportionated response without any regard for the civil population.

The whole world supported the jewish country initiative back then

That's completely false. The declaration of independence was supported only by a handful of countries at first, and it took decades for everybody to recognise Israel as a country (some Arab countries still do not).

because palestine wasn't a damn country, and because it suited perfectly for the Jews also considering religion.

It was a de facto country and even then who the hell cares? There were people living there that suddenly got invaded by Zionist jews. How do you expect them not to feel threatened and fight back? Again with the religion, why should religion (and a religion that's going to be one of the first main religions to disappear) rule a political decision? It was stupid back then and it's even more stupid looking back now.

And I think I've made myself very clear that I blame the USA and Europe for what happened, not the Jews. I mean, I blame the Jews because of their ridiculous claims, but ultimately it's the fault of those who agreed with their stupidity.

All ethnic groups lost 6 million people over an area as big as europe in a period of 5-6 years? the Jews lived peacefully in europe UNTIL the holocaust, not claiming independent country, they had no need for one untill Hitler took the rule over Germany and started to systematically killing them.

There have been worse genocides than the holocaust, but none of the victims got their own countries.

I still don't understand why do you treat Europe as a whole. After the 2WW is understandable that they didn't want to live in Germany or countries like Spain with an official anti-Jew stance, but there were many other countries where they would have had no problem. It's just that the holocaust was the kick start for a Zionism fever and Jews had the excuse and the power to return to their fairy tale land.

jews, play stupid games... jews..

he was implying about the civilians/terrorists percent, and you give us wastes and ghosts picture

How about you read again and try to understand what I said.

I know what you said. I have read what the other guy said, too. Your nice picture (jpg or whatever) still defend an invisible point of view.

I'm going to explain it to you:

- Someone pointed out the huge difference between Israeli and Palestinian casualties.
- Jewy Jew said that those numbers do not count towards determining if there's a genocide because his government says 80% of the Palestinian casualties are Hamas operatives.
- I used the UN numbers to point that even if only 20% of the people killed weren't terrorists, the numbers are still worse for the Palestinians and high enough to count as a genocide.

As I said already, numbers say nothing. The arabians were going nuts for a few years, yet by your broken logics jews are genocide troublers. Suppose I'd have a little brother and you hit him every day he cross close to you, just one punch every time. One day, I come and break your fuckin arm. Who is the bad guy, me or you? Cause if you just calculate in damage terms, yes, u are innocent one and I am the criminal.

You are the bad guy, idiot. How do the actions of others justify hurting its relatives? Not even vici said that since he assumes Palestinian casualties are just side effects, not the effect itself, which is what the discussion was about.

I never said Palestinians weren't provoking and I never said Israel shouldn't respond to Hamas. I said the response is not proportional, fair or with the only goal of reducing Hamas strength.

You forgot to mention your proportional supermathematical shitass is related to number of casualties or time? Or why should number of casualties in two days proportion be better than the proportion of days of the year in which people are dying ?I am sure if you get into using idiot and other wonderful expressions full of goldish, flowing colours, this will put you on big advantage.
You know how I call a slave of the logics? A guy obsessed by details which always do all things right yet he forget the most important thing thus makes him shining in mediocrity forever and ever and ever: imagination.
Now give me an incredible scenario on what's going on in Israel, despite the fact you have no idea how a kalasnikov bullet tastes like, or die in pieces.

The proportional shitass wasn't mine and it was about the absolute number, not about time, can you even read?. Either way, considering there have been four casualties this year due to Hamas rockets, it's stupid to talk about the proportion of days in which people are dying.

I guess I should refuse to give my opinion in any international conflict unless I've tasted the local bullet and instead use my imagination to wonder about world conspiracy theories without ever judging the very people involved.

"I guess I should refuse to give my opinion in any international conflict unless I've tasted the local bullet and instead use my imagination to wonder about world conspiracy theories without ever judging the very people involved."

That's the spirit!

"Not even vici said that since he assumes Palestinian casualties are just side effects, not the effect itself, which is what the discussion was about."
Once again, you just try to monopolise the direction of the ideas, giving all the interpretations you want, pretty far from true, naturlich. Well, keep it tight, Santa!

Really, you can't even assume that from his posts?

why do people still reply to his posts? i don't get it.

And this is the direction YOU was pushing the discussion, towards the percentage stuff, so from my point of view you still gave me an invisible argument.

sorry, but you're completely brainwashed. Israel has in a week killed more palestinians than palestinians have israeli in the past 20 years. Those are facts and it has nothing to do with any media coverage. Israeli has what, 10 casualites in the war so far with three injured? Against 600 dead and tens of thousand wounded? Israel even work against and kill UN helpers.

If you feel the world media is turning against you, and it is, it's not because Hamas has such great PR people. It's because the whole world (except USA of course) see the utter ugliness of your government and agenda.

The only good thing coming from this war is that the few who were not already convinced, are now aware of the fact that Israel is a disgusting oppressive terrorist state.

I just randomly plussed some guys over here, because I don't quite have the feeling plusses are gonna modify the reality. Is it ok with you?

i don't think anything posted here will modify reality. Except when jamerio and vedic post, several kittens in australia die.

poor kittenz :-(

It's not all about counting the kills. there is also something called security and the general feel of being safe in your own home and country. Israel is suffering from Hamas rocket attacks for 8 years now when the intensivety of those rockets attacks are growing progressively throughout the years. The Israeli goveremnt have the duty of maintaining the security of it's citizens, and this duty gives our goverment the right to respond to any attack toward's our civilians, a right which we didn't fulfiled yet because we tried to solve this without any violence.

Have you heared something about those rockets attack from Hamas and other terrorist organizations before this war? my guess is that you didn't. Why? because there weren't enough casualties for Israel, and because Israel didn't respond appropriately to those attacks throughout all this time. The innocent citizens of Sederot are suffering from those rockets for 8 years now, 8 years of feeling insecured in your own home, 8 years of fear and 8 years of casualties and injuries as well, 8 years of running into safe zones around the clock when the rocket can fall everywhere and anytime. can you imagine living like that more then 1 week? I'm sure you would run with your tail between your legs back to your island in a very short time, from where you are at it's very easy to pretend like eight years of rockets attack are nothing but a Israeli defensive operation which is the outcome of those attacks is illegitimate because citizens are getting killed in Gazza in bigger numbers. ( again thanks to the hamas humanitarian fighting method )

What's your basically strive to is that as long as Israel dosen't have alot of casualties it dosen't have the right to strike back at the Hamas. maybe we should wait another 8 years or just disable the sirens in every southren city so that there will be more casualties for the Israeli side and then we will gain more support from Europe and the world.

a word about the Hamas -

Those guys are using their citizens as human shields, hiding behind them, shooting from schools, shooting from civilian buildings then running back to their holes, waiting for the Israeli response to hit the civilians, so then they can go and cry to the world of how barbaric and ruthless Israel are, and they are doing a pretty good job in that aspect so far since i see the whole world is falling to their traps. excpecting Israel not to harm civilians in the most crowded place in the world, when fighting a monstrous terror organization, is just living in another world.

Your whine about "not feeling safe" and "worry about security" would sound a little more convincing if your government hadn't already killed a little under 1000 palestian civilians in the last week.
Civilians that already lived under cruel tyrrany and opression in the biggest Israeli prison of them all. Gaza. I don't hear you talking about how you've treated them in last years. All you talk about is how fair your country is. You actually think any symptahy is with your government?

And to answer your question, of course I had heard about Hamas "rockets" before. I also know just how effective they are. How many have died from the since the war started? 0 with 2 injured.
The horror of war for you guys. I read global media, you should try it sometimes. Would probably be a nice change from your Israeli brainwashing media machine. I know from events even from my cute little island that sometimes world media can give you a better perspective on what's going on at home than what our politicans and media say.

And I already told you a few times that I don't condone anything Hamas does so please stop talking as if that's the issue here.

Yes I do live in an island far from any Hamas rockets or Israeli genocide. You sure would appreciate people like me to shut up because "we don't know what we're talking about". While you complete your mission to wipe out already opressed palestinians. Well thankfully the world doesn't work that way anymore.

agreed.

What would you say is the primary goal of your government in the Palestinian massacre? What is the purpose and what is the gain? Is it perhaps solely a principle matter? Which of the two would you say is more likely to happen:

a) Hamas will be dissolved and recognize defeat. They will finally understand that using violence and threats against Israel will not work and in fact is counter-productive. The rockets, suicide bombs and other terrorist activity on Israel soil will finally come to an end. Peace in Israel will be reality.

b) The massacre in Gaza will only refuel already instilled hatred
towards Israelis from ordinary Palestine folk. From the hundreds of thousand lifes affected by the war there will be born a new generation of suicide bombers. Israel will be an even hotter target of massive terrorist threat in the unforeseeable future. Global opinion on Israel will be at an all-time low and the international community will be unified in its position of Israel condemnation.

i'll bite. B) is more likely to happen. however this international condemnation wont. your dreaming. The whole purpose of this is to stop hamas and that wont happen either and it will likely cause more hatred for israel. But really what are they going to do? sit there and let rockets be shot into their country. that makes even less sense than attacking palestine in the first place.

i'll tell you what. this has happened serveral times now and the instigator almost always is HAMAS. if they stopped kidnapping israeli soldiers or launching rockets into israel then maybe israel wouldnt bomb the shit out of them.

"however this international condemnation wont. "

Excuse me? Sorry, but it already has.

The U.N. Human Rights Council's 47 members voted 33 in favor and 1 against a resolution saying the Israeli offensive has "resulted in massive violations of human rights of the Palestinian people and systematic destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure."

And that's just the UN human rights council.

Do you even read any media besides Fox news? The vast majority of world leaders and countries have officially condemned Israel actions just in the last few days. Most all with the exception of Canada and the United stupid of America. Shocking isn't it.

i dont watch fox news at all but nice try asshole

=) ur cute

"Please, the coverage of the media is completely pro-Israeli everywhere, only."
It's not. US controlled media is pro-Israel, EU controlled media is pro-arab, by far.

I'm sorry, but at least here it's all pretty divided. The only difference is Israeli spokespersons get all the attention while Palestinian leaders get none.

Thats because their leaders either have long beards and smell like 'death to infidel'. That and/or they're so rich stealing all the aid, they don't want to show their fat faces.

Agreed, in Australia the coverage is quite negative towards Israel.

"Hamas makes use of their innocent citizens to make israel look bad."

yeah, and your military falls for it every single time.

NO you can not defend killing civilians with either "but they damaged our houses" or "they made us do it".
It was a free decision and you can either criticize it or say killing innocents is righteous. There really is no grey zone.

HAHAHAHAHAHA
"if the majority of people decides to take your stuff away and eat you, maybe you're just wrong if you want to live?"
"if gravity is sinking you, maybe you should just drawn?"

What a LOLERTHREAD

Don't bother to reply then, thanks.

i dont think everything my country is doing is right, but what you dont understand is how neccesary was this operation to retrieve security to the israeli southren towns which was assaulted with no clear reason by the Hamas for the last 8 years, [...]

of course there is a reason? apparently you just don't see it.

Jewish people lived on the israeli land before the palestinian, after the holocaust everyone agreed that
jewish people should have a country of their own and the chosen region was israel, there was
no palestinian country back then on the land on israel and we didn't stole anything.

but the surrounding muslim countries didnt liked that decision and opened an attack over the 2 days old israeli country, and israel prevailed while also conquering the palestinian regions.

You lived there before the Palestinians? You mean the few that started progressing there in the early 19th century? Or perhaps you're talking about Moses and gang from your old testament. That god promised you the holy land, thus you are deserving.

It's incredibly arrogant of you to say that "everyone" agreed you should have that land. By "everyone"
you're talking about Europeans and Americans who, in guilt from WWII, needed a place to put you on. They decided to place you far away from the people actually responsible, to the middle east.

In that "everyone" margin you conveniently forget about the people that actually live in that area. Who should have the most say in it. Not only the Palestinians themselves but all countries in the region. Just because Palestine wasn't officially a 'country' incorporated in the UN doesn't mean there wasn't a nation already there.

In your one-sided recollection of history you don't raise the question of why the surrounding muslim countries didn't accept your two day old land. Maybe they were correct and Israel didn't have a right to exist. Not two days after it was founded, not today.

Your posting in this thread as if you poor Israelis have been suffering greatly under the horrible regime of Palestinian terrorism. You talk about having 15 seconds to hide from Hamas "air-strikes." You know the total death toll from Hamas home-made rockets since 2002? You make it sound like its in the hundreds or thousands. It's 19. Not making light of those 19 people, but Israeli kill and rape 19 Palestinians probably every half hour since the surge.

There's no question which of the two nations are the ones being treated like dog-shit, and it ain't Israel. You probably don't learn about Sabra and Shatila in your schools?

mash - enlighten me please with the reason. the talks for palestinian country was on the go while Hamas took the leadership in gazza and halts all the talks for the favour of launching rockets over israel southren towns. the reason? the Hamas refuses to recognize israel as a country and to talk with israel.

hnns your'e arguments are poor and ignorant. the jewish people had the right more then anyone else to have a country of their own, after the holocaust it was obvious and logical. no one said that the israel would take over the whole palestinian land, i remind you the idea was to divide israel into two countries, palestinian and jewish, the idea was that both sides would live in peace toghether, and i remind you again which side didn't accept the agreement just because they were so greedy about occupying each and every region in the middle east, altough there was no real country in the israeli region that days and nothing that even close to a country, a british mandatory.


"Your posting in this thread as if you poor Israelis have been suffering greatly under the horrible regime of Palestinian terrorism. You talk about having 15 seconds to hide from Hamas "air-strikes." You know the total death toll from Hamas home-made rockets since 2002? You make it sound like its in the hundreds or thousands. It's 19. Not making light of those 19 people, but Israeli kill and rape 19 Palestinians probably every half hour since the surge."

and what about suicide bombings, do you count it too? what about the overall sense of insecure through those years, what about

Every talk about peace is completely senseless as long as Isreal continues to build new settlements in the Westbank. It shows that they dont have any plans to get out there any time soon and there will never be peace as longs as the settlements are still there.

And about biased media (don't know if it was you who said that):
Don't you think that maybe your media is a bit more biased then ours (european).
Show me an article of big western media showing clear bias towards the palestinians.
I see Livni and Olmert on TV all day long but hardly someone speaking for the palestinians except Abbas once in a while.

Same in France..

The disinformation in MOST of the world media is a disgrace. when i see headlines that are using words like "MASSACRE" and "GENOCIDE" in gazza it's just driving us israelies mad. Seems like most of the press forgot to mention that 80% of the killed palestinian are MEMBERS OF A TERROR ORGANIZATION, and that the thing that caused this operation is the nonstop rocket attacks from Hamas into israeli southren citys.

It's not about who's being showed in the TV and who's not, it's about how you present your coverage and so far all i see in foreign news channels is a continious palestinian death-toll counting and endless pictures of Gazza being bombed, palestinian children and woman crying, etc etc. Why no one shows Sederot or Ashkelon children and woman crying after each rocket attack? why the palestinian citizens suffering is being covered while Israeli citizens who have been suffering for the last 8 years from Hamas rockets aren't?

Let me tell you that, it's not all about deaths and casualties, do you imagine how its like to live in fear for so many years? for the general feeling of being insecure even in your own home, being afraid to leave your house, or getting up each night for the sound of sirens? I know right now the palestinian people suffer is much much greater but Israel just had to put an end to this, the Hamas understands only violence.

"I know right now the palestinian people suffer is much much greater but Israel just had to put an end to this, the Hamas understands only violence."

Hamas does, but what exactly are you going to do after? It would be sensible as originally promised to take down all the lunch sites. But it's not a solution. Did you know that Hamas was actually established by Israel? They were teachers and aid workers initially, but it doesn't take long to figure out what gives access to the money flow in Palestine. The current operation will hardly achieve anything but bad PR. Especially if your forces take the Hamas HQ which I think are actually hidden in hospitals and such. The ONLY way to win this war would be a massive propaganda and PR campaign.

no, the only way it will end is for Religion to die

What are you talking about? I never said anything about ending anything. Regardless, religion has fuck all to do with anything here. It's just another tool for directing and giving identity to masses. It is no different or more relevant in this conflict then any other idea, philosophical, cultural or historical of each side.
And the only way for "religion to die" or "it to end" is to kill of every human.

Well it certainly won't end by Isreal winning 'this war'. Even if they kill every single Palestinian the arab world will go on hating them forever. Religion has everything to do with it, it is the whole reason this entire mess started in the first place.

And the only way for "religion to die" or "it to end" is to kill of every human.

I'm an optimist, with ever improving world wide education, communication and scientific advancement Religion will eventually die off and Judaism/Islam etc. will be relegated to the history books as the myths of more primitive peoples.

when i see headlines that are using words like "MASSACRE" and "GENOCIDE" in gazza it's just driving us israelies mad. Seems like most of the press forgot to mention that 80% of the killed palestinian are MEMBERS OF A TERROR ORGANIZATION

Well even so by definition systematically killing off specific group would still be called a genocide. But when someone is labeled as a terrorist that term gets thrown away.

I'm just curious, where they wearing "i'm a terrorist" name tag or where did you get that 80% from?

Just asking since you mentioned 30 civilian deaths at some school, where probably one or two guys were shooting rockets from. So that percentage might be a bit lower.

A-rabs are terrorist son, simple. You see an A-rab you shoot him and the Jewgod gives you candy.

"Well even so by definition systematically killing off specific group would still be called a genocide. But when someone is labeled as a terrorist that term gets thrown away."

Well, by that definition every war is 'genocide', no? The reason Hamas and their forces are considered terrorist is because they do things that the other side claims not to be doing, such as:
*targeting civilians with rockets, suicide bombs, etc
*hiding behind and using their own civilians in hospitals, schools and threw many other methods

"I'm just curious, where they wearing "i'm a terrorist" name tag or where did you get that 80% from?"

To some people "Hamas' is equivalent to 'terrorist. The 80% came from the Palestinian PR. It was basically "%20 of casualties are civilian!!" which is interpreted to mean that %80 are not, and are Hamas. Also, since the start of all this Hamas has killed almost all remaining Fatah people, all that it managed to get to.

"Just asking since you mentioned 30 civilian deaths at some school, where probably one or two guys were shooting rockets from. So that percentage might be a bit lower."

No quite, it wasn't "some school'. It was a Hamas controlled "terrorist university", where each student was graduating into that organization.

i think he means, 'systematically killing off a group of civilians.'

no, he means that it doesn't matter whether they're killing civilians or terrorists, if they're still systematically killing of a group of people, it's genocide

lol what is a terrorist? people who don't agree with you? it's a bullshit term thrown around to sidestep ANY legal ramifications for murdering people that don't agree with you and let you know it, plz go back to g.w.bush school of idiots, er university of highly informed beings

Learn to read or shut the fuck up.
*targeting civilians with rockets, suicide bombs, etc
*hiding behind and using their own civilians in hospitals, schools and threw many other methods

yeah, israel doesn't do any of that, spot on

I didn't say they don't do any of that and they do, as everyone does everything by some amount when conflicts escalate to violence. But you have to be the must fucking deluded Islamic zealot to deny that it's a MODUS OPERANDI for Hamas and claim that it is for IDF. Simply put, one is a regular for-profit bandit/terrorist organization, a gang of thiefs, bandits and Islamic extremists who rob their own people, bandits. The other one is a regular army, like your countries and many other countries. They have a clear code of conduct, records of operation and most importantly direct chain of command and responsibility.

Bandits? Laff, Israelis are stealing Palestinian lands and the one which fight back are bandits... You've assumed that those Euros actually belong in Palestine, they don't, that Israel is legitimate state, they aren't. Get the fuck out of the middle east and go back to Europe.

"Bandits? Laff, Israelis are stealing Palestinian lands and the one which fight back are bandits..."

You're have no clue if you think Hamas "fight back". They are bandits because ALL they do is banditism, they fight and steal from everyone, more so their OWN then anyone else, because its so much easier.

"You've assumed that those Euros actually belong in Palestine, they don't"

Uh, what? You've assumed that somebody can decide for someone where they belong.

"that Israel is legitimate state, they aren't."

They are a state. Period. They are as legitimate as Canada or Unites States. There are no 'legitimate' or 'illegitimate' states.

"Get the fuck out of the middle east and go back to Europe."

Get the fuck out of the Americas and go back to Europe.

"You're have no clue if you think Hamas "fight back". They are bandits because ALL they do is banditism, they fight and steal from everyone, more so their OWN then anyone else, because its so much easier."

How does that justify or legalize the Israel theft of Palestinian lands?

lol stfu

"How does that justify or legalize the Israel theft of Palestinian lands?"

I don't. What the fuck does this have to do with the fact that Hamas are a bunch of pussy thiefs? Nothing. Idiot.

lol stfu!!!!

I guess Israel is the epitome of good governance

You guess wrong.

Erm israel has the one of the best armed armies in the world + has alot of nukes, not bad for a state that wasnt there 60 years ago and is so bloody small, hope russia starts arming muslim countries with nukes

uh, okey?

so antisemitism can finish its work?

*anti-zionism

same thing. if dropping nukes on israel is the solution there is no difference.

being opposed to israeli foreign policy is completely unrelated to hating jews. you're making shit a lot worse when you say they're the same thing.

read my post again in context of the discussion/ the replies. i didn't mean that although i would never say they are unrelated.

no

The Hamas are making a use of their civilians to put Israel under the bad light. shooting rockets from hospitals and schools is ok but when Israel returning fire it's wrong? why wont you blame the Hamas for using their civilians in such way?

So lets just let them shoot rockets all day long and as long as it comes from civilian building or civilian crowds Israel can't return fire, because then "innocent citizens" are getting killed and the whole world blames Israel for unproportioned usage of military power, no one even talks about the Hamas which is the cause for all of this, no one cares enough to take a deeper look into things, just looking at the Palestinian casualties number and automatically say "genocide".

Please fuck off from esr, we are all antisemitic and proud hitler fanbois

Edit:

lol @ "Registered: 7 Jan 2009" somehow this was not a shock

and still you sound as if killing Palestinian civilians would actually solve the problem.

Eat a bag of hell.

the jewish people had the right more then anyone else to have a country of their own, after the holocaust it was obvious and logical.

I agree. But not there.

hnns you could say "not there" about any region in the world. fact is that jews had a historical legacy in palestine, jerusalem is the most holy city for the jews since more then two thousand years, and since there was no real country in israel back then, just groups of settlers, mostly palestinian but jews as well, choosing israel region as the jews new homeland was justified and legitimate more then any place else. the muslims just wanted the whole region for themselves back then.

Yeah because they controlled it for 1,000+ years. And before that it had been ruled by the Byzantines who had brutally surpressed Jews who became a minority to Christians.

There had basically been no significant Jewish presence in the region for about 2,000 years.

On the note about it being the most important place for Jews: Well it's also the most important place in Christianity and almost as important as Mecca to Muslims (In fact the original place all Muslims prayed to was Jerusalem). So that's hardly a great argument for why Jews should have claim to the region.

A much better solution would be to have given them an area with a significant population, or if no such place existed that made sense, not give them any country at all.

And according to the bible the jews were controlling Israel for a long period as well, before the Arabs, so?

About jerusalem, it's the ONLY holy city for the jews, and you still haven't given me a real reason why can't the jews live close to their most sacred city when the whole region wasn't even a country, dont give me the history bullshit because the important thing is that according to that time it was the ideal place to set up a country for the Jews, a thing which was neccesary. If we will go by history regarding any state today you could deny most of their rights to exist, there are always those who were "before", and there are always those who came after and conquered.

The only reason the muslims have opened a war against the newly formed Jewish country is because of them being so greedy about their territorial and religious continuity over the middle east, not good enough, the Jews just needed this region more then them, isn't that good enough as a reason?

dont give me the history bullshit because the important thing is that according to that time it was the ideal place to set up a country for the Jews, a thing which was neccesary.

Has to be a troll.

And according to the bible

oh no you didn't

You keep repeating that it wasn't even a country but don't provide any facts to back up that claim.

For all intents and purposes Palestine was a country, just ruled over by various empires over time.

The holy city argument is a non-argument since all three religions claim it as essentially equally important. But still, I didn't say Jews couldn't live in or near there holy city (They had done for centuries under Arab rule, albeit as a minority), I said that they should not have been given Palestine.

Other regions more appropriate?
- Regions that had significant populations of Jews living there
- Regions that were unlikely to cause hostility
- Regions with lots of empty space
- A region in/Germany. A lot of the Jews were from Europe anyway, not the middle East.
- No Region at all, they could have lived anywhere really why did they need their own country to control?

Well why wont you give me a proof that palestine was a country?

The U.N or any other organization didn't refer to palestine as a country so it wasn't, it was a british mandatory.

Palestine had a significant population of Jews even before the end of WW2, about "Regions that were unlikely to cause hostility, I dont think there is one. lots of empty space.. afaik, Israel in 1948 was a wasteland with some agricultural settlement of both palestinians and jews, there were shit loads of empty space there ;)

A region in Germany? LOL. Europe? the jews just wanted to get as far as they can from Europe after the holocaust, dont be ridicolous, it's obvious for both of us that most of the jews woulden't even consider staying in europe, especially not in Germany, after 1945, and the world knew it, that was the main reason for the world initiate to find the jews a new independent homeland.

- No Region at all, they could have lived anywhere really why did they need their own country to control?

hmm, let's see, maybe because they have almost been wiped out systematically when living under non jewish rule in Europe, maybe because as long as they are the minority in their countries they are much more exposed to violence and genocide which was already attempted on them. After the holocaust it was clear for everyone that the jews should have a country of their own, not talking specificly about palestine here, just the main idea, I really cant see how you fail to understand that. =\

I don't see any other minority group that has been persecuted on any scale whining about requiring their own country in order to go about life.

Sure Germany or Eastern Europe wouldn't have been a great place to go but I can't recall there being much anti-semitism (in comparison to Germany or the middle east) in the UK/France. And lets get one thing straight it's not like Jewish populations have ever faired well under Arab rule either.

How comes there are populations of Jews in Europe today? Looks like they didn't all want to leave. What about the USA?

Which do you think is more likely? He's either bullshitting you or doesn't know anything about Zionism.

I think it's just trolling. Hence why I keep replying!

The Iranian Jews don't even want to leave. Despite the Israeli government promising them lots of stuff.

There is a difference between persecution to a genocide. the Jews withstand persecution in Europe for a long time before the Holocaust and never claimed a country of their own for that.

I can't recall there being much anti-semitism (in comparison to Germany or the middle east) in the UK/France. And lets get one thing straight it's not like Jewish populations have ever faired well under Arab rule either.

The nazis were killing jews all over europe, including french occupied territories. It's very insensible of you to excpect the Jews to stay on a land they were nearly completely wiped out from and just continue with their lives after that like nothing has happened. living under Arab rule? Living as part an independent Jewish country was the idea, not under anyone's rule, and not being the minority.

How comes there are populations of Jews in Europe today? Looks like they didn't all want to leave. What about the USA?

Ye, there will always be "some". it's still hard for people to leave their homes, friends, jobs, to go and work in a farm in some third world wastelands in order to form a new independent state from zero. I can understand the Jews that stayed in Europe the thing is there weren't alot of them, if not due to the holocaust then because most of them were running to the U.S or Palestine.

Zionism began before the Holocaust mate.

After 1945 the nazis were gone from most of Europe, and certainly weren't in any situation where they would be able to persecute Jews.

I realise that Israel wasn't meant to be (and isn't) under Arab rule but surely the point is that the surrounding countries and majority populations, had controlled the land for centuries and centuries and had a history of persecuting Jews?

And it was well known that the Arab countries were very anti-Israel. The British even stopped Jewish immigration and were only going to let a further 75,000 in up till 1944 because it was causing all sorts of problems with the local Arabs were killed many native Jews in riots.

If the British (Who have a history of being incredibly stupid in such matters) could tell it was going to be a nightmare solution and were stopping immigration (despite the clear persecutions going on in Europe) then I think that would be a pretty clear indication it was going to create a shitstorm.

So basically, despite apparently being hated, almost exterminated and no longer wanting to stay in Europe, some did and did fine. What a surprise.

Zionism began before the Holocaust mate.

Thanks for the enlightment. what's your point? zionism gained it's main boost AFTER the holocaust, obviously.

After 1945 the nazis were gone from most of Europe, and certainly weren't in any situation where they would be able to persecute Jews.

That's not the point, it's obvious for me that this was the case. but the Jews would obviously refuse to stay in europe after being almost wiped out by the Nazi's they were afraid and insecure, you can say now that an independent Jewish country was not neccesary, but back then the world was shocked about what happened and felt like it should help the Jews every way possible, It wasn't a regular times and you should look at it from the right prespective.

So basically, despite apparently being hated, almost exterminated and no longer wanting to stay in Europe, some did and did fine. What a surprise.

Try putting yourselves in the jews place after the holocaust. would you be so willing to stay in europe after many of your relatives were murdered, many of people who shares the same believe and related to the same ethnic groups were wiped out just because being a minority, and so many of your non jewish friends tried to hand you over to the nazis. It's so easy to talk from today prespective, to be wise after the effect, back then giving the Jews a state was the only logical solution. fact is that most of the free world supported it.

My point was:

the Jews withstand persecution in Europe for a long time before the Holocaust and never claimed a country of their own for that.

Well, they did.

Lets just think for a second, they didn't refuse to live in Europe. They continued to live there for the most part until 1948, that's 3 years living in Europe. Then it was announced that the state of Israel existed and that they wanted all the Jews to return to the Holy land, of course many were going to take up that offer, for the most part they'd lost everything after all. If that hadn't happened I'm pretty sure they all would have stayed in Europe or moved to the USA and lived fine lives.

I can't really put myself in their place and neither can you. All I can say is I've had several different holocaust survivors speak to me/my year group at school, all of them stayed in Europe, they lost all their family, and they gave the distinct impression that despite the horrors they'd been involved in they weren't scared/insecure or anything of the sort. They just got on with their lives. (Edit: I do realise though that those people are the ones that stayed, I've had no exposure to ones who did not so..)

Zionism began before the Holocaust mate.

No shit? Antisemitism began before the Holocaust "mate".

After 1945 the nazis were gone from most of Europe, and certainly weren't in any situation where they would be able to persecute Jews.

So the nazis suddenly came out of nowhere with antisemitism in their backpacks and when germany surrendered in '45 all this went away? I'm glad you made that point because it shows your knowledge of history quite well.

I realise that Israel wasn't meant to be (and isn't) under Arab rule but surely the point is that the surrounding countries and majority populations, had controlled the land for centuries and centuries and had a history of persecuting Jews?

The "land" was a british mandatory. You're right though but what countries do not have a history of persecuting jews?

And it was well known that the Arab countries were very anti-Israel. The British even stopped Jewish immigration and were only going to let a further 75,000 in up till 1944 because it was causing all sorts of problems with the local Arabs were killed many native Jews in riots.

Auschwitz was liberated in early 1945 which means they stopped jewish immigration while the germans where still eliminating a lot more jews than any local arabs could have ever wished for. Yes, the british have a history of being incredibly stupid.

So basically, despite apparently being hated, almost exterminated and no longer wanting to stay in Europe, some did and did fine. What a surprise.

You're not being serious are you? Your solution to the problem is simply stating that there is no antisemitism in europe after the nazis surrendered and all the jews are idiots for trying to built that one state that's going to fight for them no matter what?
After being betrayed by literally everyone zionism was the only solution imaginable.

You know why I said that zionism comment, our Israeli friend here suggested that it was only after the Holocaust that Jews wanted their own land (Which is clearly false).

I didn't say or imply that anti-semitism began in Europe with the Nazis (In fact I think it was quite obvious from my posts). It did see significant increases under their rule though whereas before it was much less widespread and much less violent.

I believe the British put that ban in place prior to the start of WW2, and I don't know what happened to the ban in the end. Still it was clear to the British that Jews migrating to Palestine was causing trouble (Even if it wasn't started by them which I highly doubt it was.)

No that isn't "my" solution. I didn't state or imply that there was no anti-semitism in Europe post-war. Nor do I think Jews are/were idiots for trying to build their own state (In fact I have no problem with them wanting to do so).

The Jews did nothing wrong in this matter at all, it was the international community that chose to give them Palestine and they didn't need to (And has only caused problems since).

You're just full of great logic. From the Arc of Noah to the "Open Space" arguement.

You know, there's alot of open space here in Iceland, too. I just hope after WWIII, Scientology members won't discover an ancient passage in their book where Xenu tells them it's infact rightfully theirs. In which case I WILL be forced to go 9/11 on their asses.

I just hope the mainstream media will be on our side.

Those greedy Muslims stealing your territory!

http://www.funhostr.com/files/f/files/nab7FZkc.jpg

Yeah, I was laughing pretty hard when he, as a jew (probably), said the Muslims were so greedy.

That link is just the cherry on top :>

I thought those pictures were a piss-take, but then I found the same thing on wikipedia. god damn it............

and even more so, the idiots who let them do it, just look at that 1947 pic, who in their right mind would think there won't be major shit in the region with that setup? Fucking idiots should all be gassed.

I might be wrong but as far as i know there are 22 arab countries which their terrirotry combined is bigger then the territory of Europe, and the territory of all muslim's countries ( 56 ) is 1/3 of the world.

Israel? merely a point compared to all of that. so much fighting and hate over such a small piece of land which means almost nothing for the muslims just to gain territorial continuity over the middle east is being greedy.

The expanding of the Israeli state from 1947 to now is the consequence being of wars along the years which started almost exclusively by the arab countries that's surrounding Israel ( in 1948, 1967, 1973 ), wars which Israel won.

oh yea, all middle east countries are really one big country, the MUSLIM COUNTRY, no nations or borderds whatsoever, just like Europe, I mean what's one little speck here or there? You should've just taken Belgium instead.

happy new year 1209 Israel

jebus, what kind of argument is that? maybe they live in 1/3rd of the world because they populate 1/3rd of the world. Ever thought of that?

You know what? As an representative of Greenland I'd say that you can come there and live. There's plenty of space for you to immigrate to. Nope, no people to imprison in tiny areas without electricity and fresh water. No people to force through checkpoints every time they have to go to work or take a shit or whatever. You can even build your own wall to cry upon every time you're being a whiny cunt.
What do you say about that random idiot who pretends to be a jew on the interwebs, what do you say about that?

it's vedic man, don't bother.

why do you think I wrote "random idiot pretending to be a jew"?

it was the ideal place to set up a country for the Jews, a thing which was neccesary.

Wrong. The ideal place for Jews to make a country was Washington DC, so they did.

And the area was fine, they lived side by side until WW2 when a bunch of europeans who have no racial link to that area came in and push people out

Israel is basically fully of people who arent really racially jewish, but of a different race & dont actually practise judaism religiously(most socially)

Unfortunately this myth that all that practice Judaism are ethnically "Jewish" (whatever that means) is constantly pushed forward as an unquestionable truth in the mainstream media.

And where did that British Mandate come from?

It was a region of the Ottoman Empire (And under Arabic rule more or less since 650AD with only a brief period of Christian crusader rule). So it's pretty understandable why the Arab countries didn't accept Israel when it was under their rule for so long and the country was populated by mostly Arabs.

I'm not at all convinced Jews required their own country after WW2 but I think it's pretty obvious that it shouldn't have been there and a more appropriate region could have been found.

There is no region more appropiate then a land which wasn't even a country then, a land which is a part of the whole jewish historical legacy. you are saying that the arabs ruled that region from 650AD, well according to the bible the jews were there before any arabian. so you clearly cant use history to support your argument.

Israel was the only appropiate place back then, the palestinian had no more rights then the jews to claim the whole land and refusing to accept the other side as their neighbours, not by any mean, doing so was just pure greedines.

a more appropriate region could have been found.

Name one please.

Siberia? Lots of space there.

lol, USSR did try. There was a jewish autonomous region established in Russia by bolsheviks. Almost half of them, from the revolution time, were coincidentally Zionists!

Like the flag they used to have
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the...Oblast.svg

^^

Germany.

Win. Just fix up heating and change the cafeteria menu at the camps. Lewl!!!

:-)

well according to the bible the jews were there before any arabian.

1) We shouldn't build the world according to religion..
2) The "we were there before them" is SO childish..
If it's a real right to claim a land because you were there 'before' these people, this would be such a mess :x

Stop with your bullshit haha

Edit : for the more appropriate region : USA

according to the bible [...]

so you clearly cant use history to support your argument.

you did it again.

well according to the bible the world is flat.

Celebrating jesus birth and other christian holidays according to the bible is justified but saying that Jews lived in Israel 2000 years ago isn't, why is that, both things are written in the same book.

I'm not a religious person at all, but you are just being hypocrite here, denying some parts of the bible because it dosen't suit your argument while blindely and without even knowing accepting and following other parts of it, like the main principles of our modern and enlightened society for example, which were written 2000 years ago.

I don't think Christmas or even Easter celebrations are in the Bible. What other Christian events are there that people celebrate?

The stories are of course, but there is no mention of when they happened or how to celebrate them and I think it's a bit of a coincidence they happen to totally match pre-Christian European celebrations.

Most people I know don't think of Christmas as being the time Jesus was born, and certainly aren't celebrating that fact. It's just an ancient European tradition.

nice comparison

Celebrating jesus birth and other christian holidays according to the bible is justified but saying that Jews lived in Israel 2000 years ago isn't, why is that, both things are written in the same book.

are you attributing claims, that i didn't make, to me?

I'm not a religious person at all,..

then why are you using religious texts as the justification for the land to be stolen from the palestinians?

..but you are just being hypocrite here,..

not really.

..denying some parts of the bible because it dosen't suit your argument while blindely and without even knowing accepting and following other parts of it,..

i am equally skeptical of all the bullshit thats crammed into those texts.

..like the main principles of our modern and enlightened society for example, which were written 2000 years ago.

sounds like you need a history lesson. more than 2000 years ago, the roman empire had the library of alexandria. if you had any idea wtf you were talking about, then you'd know that many facts that were discovered, by the scholars from the library, were lost were lost when the christians destroyed the library. this is because rome adopted christianity and shunned any kind exertion of intellect. 1200 years of "darkness" caused by these principles. it wasn't until the popularization of SECULARISM that humans were able to enjoy the freedoms that we take for granted.

Mainly cos I like christmas time and I like my holidays, but I couldn't care less if the bible said jews were there 2000 years ago cos it's all just a crock of shit anyway. Jews could have lived near Jerusalem, but they "chose" to live anywhere but there. So why "forcefully" put them there?

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1650179#pid1650179

so, when Germans lived longer in Germany than other people, say for a random example jews ,then it would be ok to take away their land?

jews didn't own any land in germany, or anywhere else in europe for that matter, get your facts straight.

you are embarassing yourself.

many jews or people of jewish descend owned land and stores and whole companies

link?

every damn book on the topic?

lmao?
maybe read up on the topic first, m8.

I'm too lazy to read books, I like to go by hearsay and buzz instead. And the word on the street is jews didn't own any land.

you're wrong.

so I've heard.

no worries ... the jew is still the dumbest guy in this thread so far.

edit: wait, an amerkan appeared. looks like he's just as dumb.

hey now

hey, sup?

hi

Even one rocket is enough. USA motivation to go and occupy an entire Asia region was a few airplanes crashing into their buildings. You try too much to put just numbers here. Just because jewish people are smarter and better in the conflict against arabians it doesn't mean the agressor is right. Even If your country launch 1 rocket every 10 years against other country, it is still war.

great comment

dunno
wait and read the rest of my replies xD
I still believe in conspiracies, the prove of power from all sides and that behind these wars there are financial interests, whose core comes from resources (demography might have resource meaning too, forget Matrix, though)
civilians and soldiers die, but their leaders shake hands

Problem with jews are they cant make up their minds if they are a religion or a race, alot of jews are religious yets lay claim to being racial jew of biblical time, which most arent they are european converts. So basically you ahve a bunch of people laying claim to a land because some fantasy book says so and there decendants did not come from there,

Besides arent jews ment to be cursed if they return to israel before the messiah comes?

Also most informations given by medias in France are from UN, so tell me that the UN are conspiring against you. That would make sense...

omfg i accidentally plussed this post. shit. i just wanted to see who was idiotic enough to plus it, then, ironically, i clicked on the wrong button.

http://aid2gaza.blogspot.com/

the point is that your approach to "solving" the problem has been failing for 60 years and guess what: It will fail again.

if you continue like that you will only teach them hatred, even more so if you bomb schools where they try to teach peace. you simply can not force people to be peaceful.
so if you keep going like this you will have to continue until you have killed every last Palestinian.

and seeing that Isreal was founded because of an attempted genocide this is beyond insanity

Besides your argument, where I agree that what they're doing now perhaps isn't most productive, although we do not really know what's going on, although I do have people I can talk to straight from the battle-field, they don't really know whats going on, but wiping out hamas isn't a a bad idea.

"and seeing that Isreal was founded because of an attempted genocide this is beyond insanity"

What? First of all, it wasn't. Zionism has been around quite a bit before Final Solution. Second, how the fuck *would* it be an insanity? Big groups of people behave like bacteria, which is to say they weaken or destroy other big groups of people as much as they can and 'morality' simply can't be applied on that level. I can't believe the kindergartner level of discussion here...

Yes Zionism had been around for longer, but it is not coincendence that things really started happening after WW II and the attempted genocide of jews.

And now in an abstract sence they are justifying their attacks with being victims of attacks in another era and area.

Also, I'm 28 and have been aware and discussing the gaza conflict for about 13 years now from different directions (called a learning process).
So I guess your point is that you still have to learn some things and lose some of your youthful zeal?

"Yes Zionism had been around for longer, but it is not coincendence that things really started happening after WW II and the attempted genocide of jews."

This is quite ironic considering your last question, but 'things really starting happening' doesn't have much to do with 'being founded' or 'things actually starting' which happened decades earlier.

"And now in an abstract sence they are justifying their attacks with being victims of attacks in another era and area."

It doesn't really matter what PR agencies say on any side. The *reason* they are attacking is because they want to stop the rocket attacks. Also, note that many reports from the *pro* Palestinian side state that in the death tolls of hundreds of people, about %20 are civilians.

"So I guess your point is that you still have to learn some things and lose some of your youthful zeal?"

No, my point is that you haven't progressed mentally in 13 years if you are applying morals to politics still, which would be quite sad.

well seeing how you tend to strongly defend completely immoral political systems that comes as no surprise.

just tells me that you should never be given any power over anyone.

"well seeing how you tend to strongly defend completely immoral political systems that comes as no surprise."

Holy fucking shit jesus christ what the fuck.

"IMMORAL POLITICAL SYSTEMS"?

Big groups of people behave like bacteria, which is to say they weaken or destroy other big groups of people as much as they can and 'morality' simply can't be applied on that level.

Do you know what morality is?
Do you know what politics is?

"just tells me that you should never be given any power over anyone."

You're a fucking idiot with understanding of the world of a TWELVE YEAR OLD. You are the type of people who when they get any power over anyone fuck them over.

hahaha oh god troll.


so you don't want to apply morals to politics, except that the extend in which morals can be and are adhered is a fundamental measurement at how successful a political system is.

and you don't want someone who calls for moral in politics to rule people, because apparently you think he would fool them which would be what? immoral?


well, you'll never learn that through an Inet discussion, so I won't bother.

just wondering if you'll ever figure it out on your own, which is the only way imo.



last but not least over the last thirteen years my opinion did have some variation, which referred to as learning process, and at around 17 I was considerably closer to your position.

is a fundamental measurement at how successful a political system is.

How so?

I've never seen any political system judged at all on how moral it is (Except for people not involved with politics). In fact the complete opposite happens, nobody cares about how immoral a political system is when it is to their benefit.

It so happens that a lot of failed political systems did some ridiculously immoral things (read stupid) like killing their own populations for no reason etc.

All politics cares about is how successful it is in terms of providing for the majority of its people.

I said it's one!

At the first view people surely care more about prosperity, health, security and so on.

But in a bigger picture it becomes more and more important how such goals are achieved, if moral standards are observed. (just to clear it up: I probably shuoldn't have written "measurement" because it's almost impossble to measure moral standards.)
Just imagine two systems are identical "in number" for a long period of time e.g. regarding average properity, size, etc. but the way that achieve this are very different, one is immoral where people have to be afraid of the own system (or afraid of the retribution from other states for its actions) and the other one is very moral achieving it's goals through cooperation. Which system is preferable?


Addendum:

I personally find this relevant in a sense. Though it's understandable if others disagree on that.

That would never occur in the real world though, but in which case the "moral" system would probably be viewed as best. Although I expect the "immoral" system would think the opposite to how we are viewing it and see the others are immoral for allowing so much of "X" to happen (Or something).

The view I have is that moral standards evolve alongside successful economic/political/social systems.

You don't get European 17-19Century empires anymore, not because it's immoral but because it wouldn't be a successful system to follow (Expensive and impractical).

Slavery was abolished because it was becoming expensive and impractical (Pay small wage vs housing/feeding/securing/replacing/medical care/children slaves).

From our point of view now these things are of course immoral but we've been brought up long after they have disappeared from our systems.

There's a 15-20year old or so Horizons episode by Dawkins on the subject of co-operation, it used to be on googlevideo but I expect it's not there anymore

I agree with the whole post.

Slavery was abolished because it was becoming expensive and impractical (Pay small wage vs housing/feeding/securing/replacing/medical care/children slaves).

oh come on, that comparison is ridiculous. You should at the very least have mentioned that the motivation to work of free (or lets say somewhat more free, so not to start an argument) men is considerably higher than that of slaves.

And holy shit, you get a system that is of a higher moral standard and also more effective. Could it be that morals actually evolved because they ensure a successful system??
And so many people still consider empathy a weakness...

Did you fail to read what I was saying or something?

The view I have is that moral standards evolve alongside successful economic/political/social systems.

Yes I could have added all the positive aspects of abolishing slavery but I thought I wouldn't waste my time stating the obvious.

Edit:
You seem to think morals have some sort of set in stone aspect to them. Like you're born moral or immoral and that they don't change.

Morals are pretty arbitrary really and are mostly adopted because they improve the quality of life people have and the success that creates. That's why Western democracies always drone on about being morally right, they have the most successful system at the moment and thus are the most "moral".

well, either I did read it correctly or i am misunderstanding again.

we are basically seeing it from two different directions.
you say: a successful system can aford to be moral

and i say: abiding by morals makes a system (more) successful.


and of course the specifc morals change over time, but I find they all follow some very general principles.

if you looked at the link above, you found their that the strategy that comes out on top has to be:
- friendly at the start
- cooperative
- punishing
- (quickly) forgiving

and imo those four attributes would make good general principles, which is why i posted the link.

The co-operation argument isn't about morals for me, it's about strategy. Morals isn't about being co-operative or nice (That's just a coincidence because being co-operative and nice is a good strategy).

Morals are just a code of conduct for what is right or wrong. Moral things have a beneficial impact on life whereas immoral things have a negative impact on life.

As systems progress they get more efficient and anything that has a negative impact is abadoned by successful systems. The stuff that is beneficial is seen as right and the stuff that is negative is seen as wrong.

I think it's pretty observable that it works that way around rather than things are decided to be immoral and it just so happens that it ends up being beneficial.

Since we aren't born with morals (Bar the co-operative stuff), they have to have developed from somewhere and the fact that immoral acts tend to have been given up when they were starting to become negative is rather telling (Again look at the dismantling of European Empires and the things leaders said).

Ninja Edit: And I agree with those general principles too :)

so you don't want to apply morals to politics, except that the extend in which morals can be and are adhered is a fundamental measurement at how successful a political system is.

You would have helped yourself a lot by answering my two questions.

Morality, it is the *code* that has evolved as evolutionary aspect of the social animals called humans. Humans are pack animals and the code, which is hardly any different from the code of other pack animals like wolves or sheep works within that group. The code f.e. tells an individual to not kill pack peers or take their stuff. Moral code is necessary for multiple individuals to be part of a bigger system and evolves WITH the system, for the benefit of the system, and is ENFORCED by the system, and can not exist without that system. Note, social behaviour which is just an example of symbiosis does not imply 'fairness' or 'equality' or anything like that.

Politics, it is the *process* by which groups of people behave. It is NOT a code by which they behave and most importantly, there is NOTHING that can enforce such a code, other than mother nature and physics. Groups of people compete with other groups of people without hesitation to KILL and take their STUFF because it is for their benefit. This has nothing to do with cooperating groups, because such cooperation immediately creates a bigger group, etc, nuances. Note, political systems exist for the sake of themselves only, not for the benefit of any particular individual.

Now that we established the basics, THE ONLY, and this can't be stressed enough, absolutely one and only, measurement at how successful a political system is... is its existence and prevalence over competitive systems. How YOU like a system or don't like it, from the pov of your "morally" or from any other pov, is totally irrelevant.

and you don't want someone who calls for moral in politics to rule people, because apparently you think he would fool them which would be what? immoral?

No, I don't want someone who calls for moral in politics to rule people, because I think he would suck at it, and get all people killed or enslaved, being a clueless retard. That wouldn't be immoral, that would be inefficient or fatal from the systems point of view. The system has to be really fucked to let someone that stupid get anywhere though. (see USSR/Gorbochev)

just wondering if you'll ever figure it out on your own, which is the only way imo.

lol

I agree with your point on morals

but your politics part is either wrong or not understandable.

Politics, it is the *process* by which groups of people behave.

yes, you have something like a political process, for example when someone wants a new law etc.
but calling the whole of politics one process is wrong.

and if you were correct than any group of people meeting another one i the past of history should have killed the weaker group. And that certainly did not happen every single time and I dare to say not without hesitation either.
e.g. Why didn't the indians kill of those few settlers?

Yes war and killing has been part of the human evolution forever and I there are of course gains to be had, but then again the most successful systems have been those where groups cooperated instead of killing each other of.
Shouldn't that actually be a hint that the most successful system might be one where the whole world cooperates? (just a thought, not a point!)


Sure the "existence and prevalence over competitive systems" is also a measurement of the success, but if you look at it, those systems where people at least try to be more moral seem to be more stable than more opperessing and immoral states. Here I will once again name the example Western vs. Eastern Germany and North vs. South Korea.

so I still think what wrote in #52 holds true:
"At the first view people surely care more about prosperity, health, security and so on.

But in a bigger picture it becomes more and more important how such goals are achieved, if moral standards are observed"

"Yes Zionism had been around for longer, but it is not coincendence that things really started happening after WW II and the attempted genocide of jews."

attempted?

hmm sorry, badly phrased. I was stuck at the completely destroy a ethnic, racial, religious, or national group definition.

hmm sorry, badly phrased. I was stuck at the completely destroy a ethnic, racial, religious, or national group definition. being german.

Why don't you edit it then?

because that would a kind of lying, I didn't see it before tourist's comment and I knew what I meant so didn't see it it

I demand a public apology for all the jews you didn't kill in that post.

Your are spot on m8, just ignore the youngsters here, they are deluded by the media and know no better.
They are mostly all on a guilt trip and have lost all sense of reality due to the enviroment they have grown up in.
If they had to put up with the rockets they would be the first to cry and demand action.
They dont\cant see the big picture and think the world is a nice safe cuddley place and is only spoilt by the big bad USA.

Thanks alot, appreciated. :)

Nothing like a smug moron telling people what he read in the Daily Mail. Do shut the fuck up.

i dont read it twat face, so try again

Ohh please you are just like Jamerio except even more stupid. Weren't you a BNP fanboy as well?

LoL, use some imagination , the Jamerio line is old and using the BNP label is just sooooo desperate.
Why dont you try and make me think its ok to wipe out the jews,instead of trying to make out i read the Daily Mail\BNP supporter who sucks off Jamerio.

Why dont you try and make me think its ok to wipe out the jews

I don't think anyone wants you to think that. But it's probably easier to use that strawman than actually engage in a nuanced debate about the topic.

Israel should be destroyed and all its pro-military population - executed.

People such as Anonymous (77.125.114.212) should not exist. Aggressive scum.

You're a brainwashed tool.

look who's talking, CCCP zealot

WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR

jesus FUCKING CHRIST im tired of your shit

i guess this is what darwin was talking about.

Dark is the light,
The man you fight,
With all your prayers, incantations,
Running away, a trivial day,
Of judgement and deliverance,
To whom was sold, this bounty soul,
A gentile or a priest?
Who victored over, the Seljuks,
When the Holy Land was taken
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
Was it the riches, of the land,
Powers of bright darkness,
That led the noble, to the East,
To fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We must call upon our bright darkness,
Beliefs, they're the
bullets of the wicked,
One was written on the sword,
For you must enter a room to destroy it,
No international security,
The call of the righteous man,
Needs a reason to kill man,
History teaches us so,
The reason he must attain,
Must be approved by his God,
His child, partisan brother of war,
Of war, we don't speak anymore,
Of war, we don't speak anymore,
Of war, we don't speak anymore,
Of war, we don't speak anymore,
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens,
We will fight the heathens

General Moshe Dayan speaks

General Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and gave the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997, when it was published in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan's daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.

In the interview, Tal interjected, "But they were sitting on the Golan Heights...."

"Never mind that," said Dayan. "I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started.... It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything - (it was) in the demilitarized zone - and [we] would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until, in the end, the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force.... And that's how it was."

This is how it always starts. It really is typical and almost certainly true.

It's not a coincidence about 2/3 of the world dislikes jews. And just about any jew I know is of the self-righteous pro-military type and approves every military action of his government. So in their fucked up minds destroying countries and condemning millions to starvation and misery is a always justified.

man i was so hoping for more rage in this thread. still plussed it for the potential of inducing it.

more rage? we're offering nazis, jews, brittons, yanks and communists! all we need is umayr and this thread is complete.

youre right, not a single genuine arab :(

breeze :(

lacks poles.

QL > Q3

who cares about jews?

USA are just the worst country, period

"israel is just an offshore american military base." -chomsky

Do you think Israelis know about it?

maybe a handful recognize whats happening there.

You think you or chomsky know whats happing there better then them?

i'd imagine the vast majority of israeli citizens don't think israel is the leading terrorist state in the region. if that's true, then yes, i think i have a better understanding of the situation than the majority of israelis.

Do you think the terms and states of being 'terrorist state' and 'american base' are not conflicting?
What state do you think is an antipod of a 'terrorist state'?

Do you think the terms and states of being 'terrorist state' and 'american base' are not conflicting?

absolutely not.

What state do you think is an antipod of a 'terrorist state'?

hard to think of one. the point is not that israel is a terrorist state, it's that it's THE LEADING TERRORIST STATE in that part of the world.

absolutely not.

What do you think a terrorist state is?
An 'american base'?

the point is not that israel is a terrorist state, it's that it's THE LEADING TERRORIST STATE in that part of the world.

Ok, so basically, since everyone is somewhat of a terrorist state, employing lethal weapons and not love grenades, can it be said that it's just a leading state in the region then? Do you think they don't realise what they're doing? Do you think its for their benefit?

What do you think a terrorist state is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_t...ted_States

An 'american base'?

lol. israel is obviously not an american military base, but it functions identically to one. it's not a hard joke to get.

Ok, so basically, since everyone is somewhat of a terrorist state, employing lethal weapons and not love grenades, can it be said that it's just a leading state in the region then?

i don't understand.

Do you think they don't realise what they're doing?

who are they?

Do you think its for their benefit?

who's benefit?

First of all, the notion that Israel behaves like an American base conflicts with the statement that its a 'terrorist state', because first implies it doesn't act on its own, and second that it does. I'm going to assume the first is a joke, and therefore you do not think it's true and therefore there is no conflict in your view on Israel.
Second, I was trying to make a point that what country is 'terrorist state' and what isn't is totally arbitrary. Every state strives to be the 'leading terrorist state in the region'. This is for the benefit of the state. Whom this in turn benefits within the state is irrelevant.

idk what you mean by "act on it's own." if it means what i think it might mean, then i don't understand why terrorist states must act on their own.